Episode 19 - Coming Out at Work with Etiquette Expert Steven Petrow

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Speaker 1: zombie etiquette.

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Speaker 1: Maybe this is why. No, maybe

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Speaker 1: maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social. Could you see? It's old fashioned

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Speaker 1: watch. How is he

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Speaker 2: post and damn post Act as host and hostess.

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Speaker 2: They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person, really friendliness.

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Speaker 2: I was just trying to think of something good to start this one off with, but I'm drawing a blank on this frigid, frigid morning.

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Speaker 1: So ridiculous. But we are here for you. Welcome to another episode of Awesome etiquette, which is very proud to be part of the infinite guest network from American Public Media. I'm Lizzie Post,

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Speaker 2: and I'm Dan Post sending from the Emily Post Institute.

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Speaker 1: All right, Mr I'm getting married in five months.

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Speaker 1: I know your jaw drop because you're like, Oh my God, that's really it's happening. You're getting married in five months.

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Speaker 2: It's pretty exciting, and it's starting to really settle in with me, you know it is, and we talk a lot about wedding preparation, and as I'm finding myself going through it, it's doing what it's meant to do. It's drawing me into the whole experience more. And Maura I'm getting to know pooches family better and better as we go through the planning process. We just spent all last weekend together picking out wedding outfits, and I'm learning a whole new aesthetic trying Thio, Avoid choosing a powder blue tuxedo with a ruffled shirt front as I try to operate in a whole new world.

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Speaker 1: You've got, like, Indian options to choose from here.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. So I'm both doing my, my, uh, my first real decision making about owning my first tux. Um, but also, Yeah, I'm not kidding less. I'm learning a whole new aesthetic. I'm really trying to learn how to make good choices in ah style that's not so familiar to me.

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Speaker 1: Now help your little list cause out. Because how how did you know with Pooja? That it was her? Like I'm you know, me like I'm in the dating world. I'm trying to figure all this stuff out. You were in the dating world for quite some time before you met Pooch. Like what

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Speaker 1: did it? How do you know? How do you figure this out?

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Speaker 2: I'll tell you, it was funny because you witnessed our early dating, and, um, it happened

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Speaker 1: for the record. I and I know I've said this in episode one or something like that. I knew the moment. I mean, I knew about it, but Dan was the one living it, and I really did, too. I

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Speaker 2: mean, it's so cliche aid, but she was a possibility from the start. And then that possibilities continued to unfold and unfold and unfold until it became a reality. Um, but that was one of things that that, um

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Speaker 2: it was clear because it was

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Speaker 1: clear, really. It really does happen. You really do meet somebody that, like it really does. I'm impressed. I'm impressed. And I'm very impressed with Pooja. I love every time she comes into the office, it makes it brighter. And

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Speaker 2: she's such a sweetheart. It was

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Speaker 1: wonderful having her Christmas this year. I mean, she Dan could not have picked a woman who could just, like, fit right, And you and your brother both e mean sues and and pooch both as I shortened their names on our show. But they both just fits like Christmas was a real treat this year, having them both there, and I was thinking man thes boys just both picked such wonderful women to join our family. Like how they do that. Thank

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Speaker 2: you for saying so. And I couldn't feel I'm I couldn't agree anymore and feel the same about it. And it really is that you say, How did you know it was things like that? She gets along so well with my family and fit so well, bring such ease and joy to my life. And, um, yeah, I consider myself so fortunate. I can't even tell you

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Speaker 1: they're harder question She knew right off the bat. Do you think she just

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Speaker 2: knew I couldn't speak for

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Speaker 1: your good man? Don't put words in her mouth. Good for you. Well, enough about the love lives. Let's get to some questions because we have a pretty exciting show today is a little different. Guys,

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Speaker 2: we have a guest who's gonna be joining us to answer some questions. A little later in the show, we couldn't be more excited to be hosting our first guest here. He's a fellow etiquette expert and he's someone I really look up to professionally. When I when I first met this person, I said to him, You know, you're who I wanna be when I grow up and

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Speaker 1: how he felt about that. I know

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Speaker 2: I was gushing. It was so inappropriate, but hey really is quite good. So stick around and that'll be a treat for a little later in the

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Speaker 1: show. E sure you're right,

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Speaker 1: but there's so much to learn how to do. Sure, there's a lot to learn, but it's worth it. And learning is easy. One way is by

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Speaker 2: watching others

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Speaker 2: on every episode of awesome etiquette. We take your questions on how to behave, and today we have a very special guest. Stephen Petro is here with us to help answer some questions and also have a bit of a discussion. Steven writes the CIVILITIES column on LGBT and Straight Social Dilemmas for The Washington Post and Digital Life. A column about digital manners for use A Today he's also the author of five Count Them. Five Etiquette books were so glad Steven's gonna be joining us today.

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Speaker 2: This question comes from a listener who wants to know. My husband and I have been friends with another couple for the past few years. I am closer friends with one of them. We like getting together with them but there is a recurring issue that we don't know how to handle. They don't really know how to host. They never have enough food or drinks. Recently had one bottle of wine for six people, and they often will order pizza as a snack and ask people to chip in. It is usually a bit awkward when they inevitably run out of food and drinks early in the evening. We generally bring a bottle of wine, but that doesn't cover. Everyone thought. This is not a financial issue. I think it's just a holdover from college party norms that we're now all in our early thirties. How should we handle this whole situation? I know that my friend is self conscious about her hosting abilities. Should we plan to bring over extra drinks when we attend? Hop out by MAWR when they run out of drinks and just plan to drink tap water? If she brings up her hosting abilities again, what should I say? Signed. Wanting to be a good guest.

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Speaker 1: Oh, good guest. Your good friend too. But wow, that really stinks. Could you imagine going to a party and being asked to chip in on pizza That's a snack. It's not even your dinner. It's like

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Speaker 2: and the beverages air running out. And

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Speaker 1: I feel I feel for them, and that's that's a really tough situation. Your friend. Clearly, she, like you, said she's a little self conscious about her hosting ability, so she knows she's not great at this. I would not tell her. Yeah, you aren't I wouldn't even try to give her specific ideas, but I would. This is okay. This is one of the very few times ever that I suggest this this is the time to break out a really good hosting book. Now, obviously, we have one great get togethers. My sister and I wrote it. I would definitely recommend it. But if you have a different hosting book that that worked for you or that you really like or that you like the way it's set up, that sort of thing, I would just I would bring it over like the next time you get together with her. Not at a party, obviously. But, you know, offer to have coffee with, or something like that say, Hey, I'd love to get together and I would bring that book and just say, You know, I remember when you were talking about, you know, feeling self conscious about hosting parties, or maybe that stress you out. And I just wanted to give you this book because it really helped me out or, you know, my friend read it and she got some really great pointers. And I just thought this might make it a little easier for you.

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Speaker 2: I like that sample language because you're you're so good at that. You're so good at finding the actual words. The thing to say, Um, to me, that sounds helpful. And where is pointing out what's been going wrong might really be hurtful.

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Speaker 1: Couldn't you imagine, like the two of them, like sitting down for coffee at one of their their houses, and And the friend who's who's the good guests are writer saying something like, Well, I just wanna let you know that when you do have people over, you really shouldn't have. You know, you shouldn't ask them to pay, or you should have. Usually you want to think no matter what. When we were talking about this question, I was like None of that sounds right. What sounds right is this really helped me when I was starting to get usedto people in doing that. And then she'll She'll get all the answers and you don't have to sound like you experienced a bad time in her house. Would you

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Speaker 2: go so far, Absolutely late on toe. Offer to co host.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you could totally do, like, say, hey, would you want to co host together sometimes So that, you know, you don't have all the pressure on you, but you're still kind of learning it or or seeing what I do. I don't know, that sounds a little like Pappas, but

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Speaker 2: yeah, I might not go that far, but it does that. I think you're finding two very good solutions to a tricky problem. It's hard to give a host corrections E I mean, it's just not what I guessed is normally going to do.

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Speaker 1: You know, listen to what Dan and I are doing here, like, we've gone back and forth now a couple of times and we've tried out language and, you know, even even the stuff I've said as I'm saying, it sometimes doesn't sound right. It's why dance like, Yeah. No, I might not say that. But I'd say this, and that's how we figure this stuff out. You know, use the people that you know in your life that make good decisions that have good judgment and talk with them and see how something sounds. If you're really unsure, it's It's the nicest gift you could give to the friend who you're trying to help in the end, because if you do get it wrong, it can really be hurtful. Or it can come out, you know, trying to do good things here. People

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Speaker 2: are trying to host trying t o They're going to maintain a friend group that clearly is, has something

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Speaker 1: creating things they're not great at, you know? Yeah. So anyway, that would be your advice. I would say get, you know, find a book that you really love. I do hope it's our book. We would love that. And I would definitely say, um, offer that as a resource for her and let her know that really helped. You were really helped someone. You know, Um and that would I really hope that you guys could have Cem Cem Ha ha. Great get togethers together soon. Best of luck to you.

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Speaker 1: Our next listener has a somewhat unique situation. Rather than figuring out if she needs to re gift, she's been double gift. What do you do with this duplicate gift? Hi, Lizzie and Daniel. I cannot tell you how much I love to listen to your podcast. I get so excited when I wake up and see a notification that the newest episode is up. It makes my long commute enjoyable. I have a quick question concerning a Christmas present that I received this year. The story goes like this. Two years ago, my best friend bought me a beautiful mug that I use every day. We actually ended up buying each other identical mugs with each other's initials on them. We live together during this time and used to alternate making coffee for each other in our mugs, and it really became a special thing. However, this Christmas I received a gift from a new friend. That was the same exact mug my best friend had given me that previous Christmas. My new friend was very proud of her gift and excited to give it to me because she thought it screamed me. Little did she know it really did scream her. This new friend happens to be someone that I am quickly becoming close with and get along with very well. Should I say something about the mug? Is it not a big deal? And I'm making it one. What do I do if and when the two are over for coffee and notice? I have two of the same mugs. Or should I keep this my own little secret? It's a great mug, and I have no problem having to. But I don't wanna hurt my new friends feelings that I already have been gifted this before. Thanks so much for answering my question and Happy New Year. Sincerely, the secret double mug owner. That may be our best like anonymous name. The

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Speaker 2: double gift from the secret double mug owner.

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Speaker 1: Double mug owner. What do you think, Dan? What should she dio

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Speaker 2: a couple of things first I have to acknowledge the introduction to this question. We asked a little while ago for people that let us know how they listen to the podcast. And I love that people are telling us that we that we provide you a little bit of respite on your commute because, I'll tell you and I have to share this. I am a huge podcast listener. I love podcast. I listen to a lot of them. One of my favorite is a patriot football podcast pfw, and I'm I woke up this morning eager for the Tuesday afternoon. It's the first time I get to hear them after the victory last weekend, and I'm literally I'm on pins and needles. I can't wait for noon. When the podcast runs, I'll be at work. I won't listen, but I will, absolutely, on the way home tonight, B b to it. So I'm right there with you, and I'm so glad that we can play a role like that with you. So to your question itself, it's a great question. And and I like it because it's It's in the cool blue of the etiquette. Seriously scale and what great problems toe have friends that know each other so well. You give each other identical gifts and then the next year someone else gets you the same thing, and it is the thing that you've been loving so much, um, so clear. There's a lot of synergy, like kismet in this this friend circle, and I don't think you've got a lot to worry about here. Should you say something about them? Clearly, you want to thank them for the gift, and you could just leave it at that. But you could Also, you could acknowledge this this remarkable. I don't want to call it a coincidence because

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Speaker 1: everyone believes in coincidences. Maybe there's something

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Speaker 2: more going on here. Coincidence. Um, but it's it does speak to how well she knows who you could even say that. So, you know, I got the same mug last Christmas. My absolute favorite thing. I can't believe I got a second one. I've recently chipped one of my favorite coffee mugs. I wish I had a second version of it, so I would say,

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Speaker 1: But it's okay to tell the second friend Oh, my gosh, I have this exact mug and I'm so relieved to have a spare, like absolute, because I would. I was thinking the other day I would hate it if this thing broke and I couldn't put it together. In fact, that's yes. Exactly. Not just appropriate. Just say that it would

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Speaker 2: make me smile, will put a smile on my face to hear it.

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Speaker 1: That would be if I had given someone a gift. And you are always going to be a little disappointed if they already have it. But if they expressed it that way, I wouldn't feel bad about it at all.

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Speaker 2: Not a bit,

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Speaker 1: you know. And I know I was right on the mark because I gave her something she already loved exactly,

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Speaker 2: particularly when it is something that you that you

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Speaker 1: that's good stuff

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Speaker 2: you enjoy so much. So

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Speaker 1: is there anything else you would say to her? But that's pretty. I mean, wow, that's a short, quick answer, But it is a short,

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Speaker 2: quick answer, and we're glad you enjoyed the show. And, you know, you might even have some fun with it. If you do have them over, make two cups of coffee and put one in each hand. Or but but definitely enjoy it, have some fun with it. No need Thio. No need to hide it or keep it a secret. And we hope that you keep listening and that you keep taking some pleasure in the show. Good luck.

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Speaker 2: Our next question has to do with a hosting and maybe guesting dilemma. It begins. Hello and thank you for a great podcast. We

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Speaker 1: had a

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Speaker 2: situation come up over the holidays. That was puzzling, and I wonder if there could have been a better way to handle it. We were invited to the waterfront home of a person my husband works with for an invitation to view the Christmas parade of ships in the late afternoon. Other guests present were people my husband in the host worked with and then other friends of the host couple. We had some drinks and Nice sword Irv's and watched the ships go by. A bit later, the hostess walked up to my husband and a few of his other workmates and asked them to please pass the word around that it was time for the work. People toe leave because they were going to get started on the dinner party for the rest of the guests, we found our coats, thank the hostess and quickly left. It was quite the awkward moment after such a nice invitation, especially as it had been a cheerful time up to that point, would there have been away for the hostess to state limits up front in the emailed invitation to put a time limit in effect on the Christmas ships viewing Happy Hour. Is there a polite way to chase people out that does not involve asking guests to pass on to other guests that it's time to leave? Is there a better way to double book parties such as this? Thank you,

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Speaker 2: L P

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Speaker 1: think about this. I think all of her instincts are exactly right. This felt awkward because it is awkward. It felt awkward because your host did not handle it correctly, so completely sympathize and understand. And your suggestion at the end is exactly what I would have told your host to do if the host had written in prior to the party. Um, and that is that you want to put a time limit on the Christmas ships viewing happy hour, which, by the way, I think sounds like the best title Christmas ships viewing happy hour. I'm like, I want one of those every week. Um, so what I would have done as the host would be to be up front with everyone say in the emailed invitation that, you know, we we are doing a small dinner party that evening, however, you know that'll be just for a couple of death or a few guests, but we want to invite you all thio our Christmas ships, viewing happy hour and then you list it from 7 to 8 p.m. When the ships go by and then people know that it's over at 8 p.m. And I would go so far also has to serve the dinner, probably an hour after that. That way there's enough time, exactly. Dan A. Gap. There's enough time for you to be able to say goodbye. Get people. You know, people get happy when they're, you know, at a cocktail hour they've had a couple drinks, their long goodbyes that sometimes happen. So you give it that cushion room. But it's clear from the get go that there is a small party for just friends. But we wanted to invite everyone from the office because we have this fabulous view and we wanted to share this with you for the I want to say it again. Christmas ships viewing happy hour. I like what

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Speaker 2: you're doing here because my my initial reaction to this question is when I find myself withdrawing a little bit because

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Speaker 1: it feels it feels

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Speaker 2: so awkward. But you're really looking at what the host could do because some people really are their generous host and they're organizing a lot of events. And if you do have a nice home where you're doing a lot of hosting, you're bringing lots of different people from different areas of your life together. And so it's not just that you want to not do it, but you do want to do it. Well, I like that idea. The gap. I like the advice about the start and finish times. I'm wondering about the guests here, and this is the I think it's a hard question. What would you do as a guest if your host comes up and approaches you and says, Could you please, um, circulate and ask the people that, you know here toe leave because we're about to start a dinner party and I e. I just so sympathized with that guest finding themselves in that situation because you don't want to say, you know, I really don't think that's appropriate. I'm not comfortable doing that.

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Speaker 1: I'm just gonna leave now. No, but I might actually do that I might not go and do the work for the host like, I don't know how. I would feel to be honest if if if your mom came up to me at a party and said Lizzie, could you? Well, that's family, so it doesn't even feel a little bit different. But if I was being hosted at a party and my host came up and said, could you ask some of the other guests leave? I might even say to the host of that moment, You know, I'm not really that comfortable doing that, But I'm happy to get my coat to get things going so that people see it's

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Speaker 2: time to go. See, There you go, I there there you are being, um, firm and not not engaging in something you're not so comfortable with. But also I like that language of, you know, I'm more than happy toe to start the wave. Let me let me see if if I can lead the charge

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Speaker 1: well, we hope that that helps, and I know that you you definitely wouldn't host a party this way yourself. But I do hope that in the future, the Christmas ships viewing happy hour. One last time is going to go a little bit more smoothly for you as a guest and for this house, because I'm sure that was a little bit awkward for them. A swell, but best of luck and yeah, just remember, put start and end dates on those happy hours so that people know when it's time to go.

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Speaker 1: Our next question is actually, when I think a lot of people are going to start dealing with soon when a couple are getting married and they've already lived on their own, so they don't really need any household items. Is it okay to give them a gift card? Wedding shower? If so, how would I word the invitation? I'm going to take

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Speaker 2: a crack at this one because I am starting to

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Speaker 1: go for the wedding prep 1st. 1st, would you want a gift card wedding shower thrown in, Your honor?

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Speaker 2: Who? I hadn't thought of myself attending a wedding shower. I used to

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Speaker 1: the bridal shower, but yeah, our eyes were there. I wouldn't be opposed. Okay. Cool. Alright. Uh, so the answer to

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Speaker 2: the question um, showers are very particular party because the intent of the showers to shower someone or maybe in this case, a couple with gifts. So the whole purpose of the party is gift giving and precisely because of that, usually showers. Air Onley Very close. Friends and family are invited. They're not big affairs, usually still smaller and more intimate affairs than, say, a large announcement party engagement party. So already you're talking about a smaller subset of friends and family. People also have theme showers, so it's sometimes difficult to get around the question of gifts on an invitation. Oftentimes, the rule is you don't mention gifts on invitation, but for a shower you might have a theme. This is gonna be a kitchen shower, or this is gonna be an hour of the day shower or, in this case, gift card wedding shower. And and the intent of the invitation is to set people up with for success with the party, and you wanna let him know that, so it's perfectly okay to put that on the invitation. In fact, it's important that you put that on the invitation. If you're talking about the details, maybe ah, registry information or preferred stores, you might. You could put that in the invitation. But you also might wait to get RSVPs to distribute that information or do it in the word of mouth way. That would be a little bit mawr traditional. It's not that you can't put it on the invitation, but you just might want to think about handling it like that. Also.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we hear both things at the Emily Post Institute. We hear that people want to go the traditional route of never having an invitation that has mentions of gifts on it and instead, wait until the person says Yes, I'm coming to the party and then you can talk with them either over the phone or via email. However you requested the R S V P toe happen, Um, about what a good gift would be. Um, but it's also a convenience thing, and a lot of people find it really convenient to receive the invitation and see that the bride is a size 10 and that she, you know, loves the color purple and that, you know her favorite store is such and such. I mean, whatever it is that helps helps people be able to choose something on their own. People are often very grateful for that information. So, um, kind of think about your friends and family and whether they tend to go the more traditional route or whether they tend to go for the convenience. And either way, it's perfectly OK to say, you know, this is a gift card wedding shower, and that's probably gonna be the title of your invite. Cofer.

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Speaker 2: One other thought that came up is we were thinking about the question was the idea that when people are giving gift cards, you want to keep the focus on the store that the gift is for not necessarily a particular amount given. And if people were looking for tips or advice, this is one guest call on your distributing. You might suggest that they packaged the gift card to wrap it in a way that when you unwrap it, maybe it's in an envelope with store name or in a card that makes this store that the card is for really explicit and clear. So instead of being oh, this is such and such for such and such an amount it. So thank you so much for the gift card from

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Speaker 1: it might even be some particular talk with the bride about and just say when you open these. We were thinking that because everyone has such a different budget that we just wouldn't mention the amount. But instead we'd say what store was from

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Speaker 2: that Sounds like a much cleaner and simpler e like

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Speaker 1: that best of luck to you and have a wonderful gift card wedding shower.

00:23:17

Speaker 1: Our next

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Speaker 2: questions a bit of a follow up from a previous episode. Our listener wants to know. I'm really enjoying the podcast. I was delighted that after doing wonderful segments on the dinner party download, you have expanded to a weekly forum. I'm writing to question the explanation given by Lizzie last week for the congratulations slash best wishes offered to brides and grooms. I grew up in a very large Italian family. My grandmother had 12 sisters, nine of whom had Children. So I have been to dozens of weddings, maybe more than 100 since infancy. I was told in an early age to never wish a bride or groom. Congratulations. Best wishes Solu etcetera were all fine. The reason is that congratulations was reserved for pregnancy and offer it to a bride was sold tingly, insinuating that she was pregnant. Eyes this just some weird familial rule, the norm and Italian and Catholic culture or, um, or widely followed tradition again. Congratulations on the podcast. I look forward to it every week. Thanks.

00:24:17

Speaker 1: Oh, Drew our our listeners name was Drew, and he did not ask to be anonymous. So I'm gonna say, Oh, Drew, you get that? I've never thought of this before. I mean, last week, my my explanation, although I know it was confusing to some, was actually more about the fact that you wanna be saying the same thing to the bride and groom or that I think you should be, Um I don't really like it when they differentiate and say that one thing should be said to a man and another two woman. I think there's times to separate men and women out, but I think there's also times when you don't need it. And this to me when I heard it when I was a kid, um, and as a young woman to was always just like what the heck, It's just the way it sounds in my head. But I had never once in a million years thought of congratulations as being reserved for babies for pregnancy, and it totally could be. But I, um I have not heard of this as a wider thing. So it might be particular to your family. It also might be particular to Italian or Italian Catholic culture. Um, I grew up Catholic and had never heard of this, So I don't think it's particular to just Catholic culture. Um, but I definitely think it's one to kind of put in the hat and and keep around for sure. I kind of like I do, too. I e I think about it and and who? I mean this This This might be

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Speaker 2: one of the roots of that particular courtesy and it

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Speaker 1: has no idea. I really don't. We might. This might be one that we research further and add as an old segment later

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Speaker 2: on. And thank you, listener Drew, for sharing this with us because it zits definitely a detail in a juicy detail. And I always love hearing things like

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Speaker 1: that. So, unfortunately, Drew our answer doesn't kind of get you any closer to having an answer. Just let us know that this is now out there and I kind of want to. I want to find out more about it. I think, yeah, eso

00:26:09

Speaker 2: true. Thanks for bringing it up. Thanks for the follow up.

00:26:11

Speaker 1: And it's just another thing to consider. And that's so much of what etiquette is about is about being aware and so having one more way to say Oh, you know, I never thought that this could have those implications. I'm so glad I'm aware of it now.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. And I'll also say we have a special guest coming in the show. We've talked about that, and we also have a special etiquette salute, and I want you toe stick around for the end of the show. I hope you do, because you're gonna be part of that salute. So take good care. And thanks for the question, as promised. For our next question, we will be joined by a very special guest. Stephen Petro is here, and he writes the civilities column for The Washington Post and a column on digital etiquette called Digital Life for U. S. A. Today. He's also the author of five counts of five etiquette books, one of my favorites on weddings as well

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Speaker 1: I bet that's useful to you right now.

00:26:58

Speaker 2: Stephen, thank you so much for joining us today. Welcome to the podcast. Welcome toe. Awesome etiquette. Lucy and Dan, I'm just so pleased to be here.

00:27:07

Speaker 1: It is so great to talk to you. I know we've gotten to work with you in the past, and we're very, very glad to be working with you right now in the present. So we have a definitely one question that we would love your perspective on, Um and if it's okay with you, I'm just going to read

00:27:23

Speaker 2: it and

00:27:23

Speaker 1: we'll get

00:27:23

Speaker 2: right to Okay,

00:27:24

Speaker 1: great.

00:27:26

Speaker 1: So Austin writes Good afternoon. I work for a performing arts organization in fundraising, and as a result, I interact with quite a few older individuals who donate to my organization. As older individuals tend to do, they'll sometimes make comments along the lines of you'll find out in life that women are always right. Just remember that when you find a girl or you don't have a girl, What we need to fix you up then. Well, I certainly appreciate their interest in my well being and understand their assumptions. The fact is that identify as a gay man and therefore have no interest in finding a girl. Furthermore, I happen to be in a relationship with a great guy, so they don't really no need to worry about me finding anyone at the moment by laughing off their comments, which is my current go to response. I feel a bit like I'm not being entirely true to myself. I understand that it is not everyone's business, and I certainly don't think that everyone with whom I interact needs to know. But these are individuals with whom I'm supposed to develop a relationship. I see them not infrequently, at donor events and receptions, and I don't like the idea of simply continuing to laugh off their jokes about my girlfriend or lack thereof. My concern is not that it would hurt the organization. The individual who brings it up most often would have absolutely no problem with it. I'm sure my concern is how to politely let them know when I feel it is appropriate that while I appreciate their interest, I'm simply not looking at the moment. And even if I were, I wouldn't be looking for the individuals they have in mind. I don't want to embarrass or make them feel awkward. But I generally try not to blatantly lie about this aspect of my life, and it seems like I'm verging into that territory. Any advice would be helpful. Thank you so much. And my boyfriend and I love the podcast. Keep up the good work. Warm regards. Austin.

00:29:12

Speaker 1: That's a

00:29:12

Speaker 2: really good

00:29:13

Speaker 1: question, Right?

00:29:15

Speaker 2: Is a suite ladder. It's a great a lot of great questions in here. And I just want to go on record saying I love the podcast to, um, you know, one is that one of the one of the big questions I often get asked myself is, since I write about LGBT issues, how are you know so called gay manners? Different than, you know, straight manners on, um So this question kind of kind of raises that right up at the stars because I think that all of us, when we've been single have well meaning folks who want to set us up. And you know, Dan, I know you're recently engaged, and I can imagine that in the clear you don't have a girl. What? We need to pick you up then. Then you know someone must have said that, Teoh. I've heard it more than once. I must admit, you know, and I have to say it kind of. It kind of irks me because generally this happens, like in somewhat of a professional setting on Do you know, setting someone up like this? It's personal. So for everybody, I think, you know, boundaries are important even though this is a well meaning asked boundaries, folks, What a great reminder. Um, you know, And he often says, You know, I understand that my sexual orientation is not everyone's business. Um, his personal life is not everyone's business, so that that's that's 11 point here. The best answer I would have for Austin would be to bring his boyfriend to an event I'd like you to meet. So and so my boyfriend. That is perfectly fine, more than perfectly fine. That will answer all questions, and and I'm sure this particular individual would say That's wonderful. I'm so glad to have met him.

00:31:05

Speaker 2: So just just disarm the whole situation by being by being yourself in, in, in, in, in person, in present, with this, uh, the people that are probing or questioning exactly now, you know, sometimes there may not be notes often didn't have the boyfriend to bring and, you know, and he's still sort of being nicely badgered about this. There's no reason why he couldn't say kindly. You know, Thank you so much for thinking of May um,

00:31:38

Speaker 2: you probably don't know that I'm gay.

00:31:40

Speaker 2: Um, on believe it that I took a question like that recently when I was in Washington and the question or felt that in some way this was flaunting his sexual orientation, used that word. And,

00:31:55

Speaker 2: you know, I I don't think there's an aspect of that. It's just it's just a statement of fact. Just as anyone would say, This is who I am and that's really what sort of equality is about. So I pardon the interruption. I just couldn't agree. Mawr. I mean, this question of flaunting seems so strange to me because the our relationships, despite our best efforts to keep our work and professional life separate, come up and they come up in all kinds of context. I think it's why it's a really important to have have discussions like this, but to talk about how it's not flaunting to acknowledge that you have a personal side to your life and and to feel like you could be honest about that. And and that was definitely sort of where the end of this question started to go. Where I say to myself, we often talk about how important, Um, honesty is too good etiquette. And, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, and and the very end of this question I conceived often is, um, you know, he's hesitant to do this. There's, um you know, he's

00:32:57

Speaker 2: there's, um there's a concern, and I just want to say him,

00:33:02

Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no reason to be concerned. You know, you're in, You know, you're working for a great organization. It sounds like these are wonderful people. Just be yourself. So, um, Andi, enjoy having your your partner or boyfriend with you with some event.

00:33:17

Speaker 1: That's something that I was gonna ask you because you know, to me, I I look at it like, of course, why wouldn't you You bring your spouse or your partner, um, to an event, you know? And just because you are gay or lesbian or, um, bisexual transgender that that it shouldn't be something you feel you have to hide or that you feel might make others uncomfortable. How? What? What is that like a someone who identifies as something other than straight toe have to navigate that territory because as a straight woman, it's something I never think about. I wouldn't have it if I had a boyfriend. I would definitely bring him to Emily Post events that we have. I wouldn't hesitate to think about it. And when we got this question, I remember one of the very first things I thought was Oh, my gosh, like this. This guy has a wonderful relationship and he's being bombarded with, you know, offers to set him up with women that obviously it's not gonna work. Yeah, and it just It just gave me sort of a little bit of pauses to like, Wow, I don't It doesn't even register with me whether you know it registers with me whether or not I'm at a point in a relationship where I should be asking a boyfriend to come with me. But not whether or not I should be making it known to my co workers that you no, I'm straight. And so I mean granted a little different here. I do work with my family, so they kind of know I'm straight. But how I I just when? When you're advising people and clearly your advice to Austin is bring your boyfriend. Don't worry about it. How do you kind of get them to believe in and feel comfortable with that when it might be something that they are a little bit more nervous about?

00:35:04

Speaker 2: Let me just also, I love what you just said, Lizzie and especially in a your whole family knows that you're straight.

00:35:10

Speaker 1: They dio e

00:35:14

Speaker 2: know that there are, ah, lot of post Bond. Daniel and I have joked that I would love to see a family tree one days like everyone's related.

00:35:21

Speaker 1: We will do that,

00:35:23

Speaker 2: but in a sort of what you get, who is that? The default assumption also is that everyone is straight and you know,

00:35:31

Speaker 2: I don't know your whole family tree. It's possible, actually that there are some or there's someone who is LGBT in the post family and probably, you know, he or she or they would be assumed to be straight until

00:35:42

Speaker 1: until they came out. Exactly. Very true. True.

00:35:46

Speaker 2: So I just want to sort of raise that sort of general default that that we have. Um, you know, interestingly, I'm working on a question from my own column from a college senior, Ah, woman who has been out on campus and is now applying for jobs and is trying to sort of navigate how to stay. She wants to stay out, but she doesn't want She doesn't want to flaunt it in her resume or in her job interviews, notice she want to lose the job. Um and so I'm still working on the answer, But the concern is that you won't get a job, and that concern is actually based in in in fact, 29 states. You could be fired just because you are l g B t. You know that? What is

00:36:30

Speaker 1: that for, Riel? You mean that we've now we're crossing marriage equality in many states now, and we still can fire someone for their sexual orientation

00:36:40

Speaker 2: just for that reason alone in 29 states. Because there's no federal protection

00:36:44

Speaker 1: that I wish you could, because

00:36:46

Speaker 2: we've gotta pick her job off the table

00:36:48

Speaker 1: thing. I know in a lot that breaks. I'm sorry, E. That's terrible.

00:36:56

Speaker 2: I know. You know, it's interesting, Lizzie, with

00:36:59

Speaker 2: the emphasis and success of the marriage equality stuff,

00:37:03

Speaker 2: um, many of the other, uh, equality measures have have really lagged on, uh, you know, like I live in North Carolina now. It's legal from Jim and me to be married. E could still be fired here, though, in the state for being gay. Eso so? So that is a concern. You know, when we're talking about workplaces.

00:37:23

Speaker 1: No kidding that it put. Actually, it puts a hold getting back to Austin. It puts a whole different spin, even though he seems confident that his his boss would be okay with it. Um, I could understand the trepidation. Ah, lot more now,

00:37:37

Speaker 2: Yes, that's the trepidation. And then I just saw study that came out a couple of months ago. And it it, um it indicated that

00:37:47

Speaker 2: same applicant, if they appear to be gay on their resume, had a 25% less likely chance of getting the same job with everything else being the same. So there still is there still bias. So that is kind of a larger, um, pool that Austin and others operates on DNO. And for I don't know how old Austin is. You know, for those who are, you know, in midlife that came. You know, we have come through. Ah, lot of this, um, LGBT civil rights. Remember, we remember, um, you know how hard it was. And I was actually over a Duke yesterday where I'm an alum talking with, um, undergrads about how students in the 19 sixties I'm not that old were, um,

00:38:35

Speaker 2: were routinely expelled from the university because they were gay.

00:38:40

Speaker 1: Oh, my gosh.

00:38:41

Speaker 2: You know, and that, you know, these undergraduates were like, really Duke.

00:38:46

Speaker 1: Yeah. And not that

00:38:48

Speaker 2: long ago, Like in your in your in the lifetime if you're talking undergraduates now in their parents lifetimes or exactly on, um and they were reported to the State Department and the FBI. I mean, it happened at Harvard before that, you know? So, um uh, well, there's like a There's a lot of history that that's actually behind Austin's question.

00:39:07

Speaker 1: So we've So we've We've heard your answer for Austin that you think he is that if if you were in his shoes, you would say, you know, bring bring your boyfriend to an event, let it be known in that fashion. Um, is there anything that if Austin isn't comfortable about that, if he still doesn't want his sexual orientation to be something known to his, um, to his his work colleagues or or the people Maybe not just in the office, but the extended donors and such at the foundation he works at, What would you advise him to do? Because his his question is, you know, if if he isn't ready, What what can he do when people say these things? Because laughing it off does kind of feel like a lie.

00:39:53

Speaker 2: Yes,

00:39:53

Speaker 2: well, you know, one of one of the other pieces of advice that I give is that an individual should come out when he or she is comfortable. Absolutely, you know, and that there is no right time. There's no outside standard, and a lot of times certain celebrities who have come out later in life have been criticized by others because folks think they should have come out earlier. Well, you know, it's really not our business on, and and we don't know the personal circumstances. So, you know, toe Austin or to anyone, it own it, you know, this is under your control and And when and if you're ready, that's when you should do it. Now, you put yourself in a little bit of a tough spot. If you're not willing to be honest that way, and either you can say thanks so much for thinking of me, I'm just not on the market right now and kind of leave it at that. That's not that, Um,

00:40:48

Speaker 1: I like that personally, I like I'm not

00:40:51

Speaker 2: on truth. Yeah, I'm more likely to want to push people towards, you know, sort of that gray area. Rather than saying something that's simply not true to who they are. I think that

00:41:01

Speaker 1: we agree completely with that. We're not huge fans

00:41:04

Speaker 2: of lies. It kind of sits in you and makes you feel bad in some way because, right, I know that because I have done that. Um, so that would be that would be my response, my response to him about if you wanted to go that way, But, yeah, there's also the flip side of this. So he works for performing arts organization. Um, you know, perhaps he's, you know, he's doing fundraising. Being out, maybe actually, a Really, Um benefit Thio his role in working with a larger group of donors and being able to connect with them. So sometimes the initial response is Oh, being gay is you know, it's it's a negative when in many work places now it's seen as a positive. Having diverse workforce places is really good for business. And and I think in this case, likely so Amen. Well,

00:41:57

Speaker 1: I like it. Austin. We really hope that that answers your question and thank you so much. I have to just give a shout out to Austin on his own because he waited so very patiently for an answer while we tried to figure out what week would be best to talk with Stephen on Boston. I appreciate your patients, and we truly hope that whichever whichever you decide whether you decide to come out to your organization or whether you decide toe hold off and let that be a private part of your life. We hope that you can handle the situation with confidence now, and we're very grateful to Stephen for for helping us to answer this question. And Stephen were hoping that you would be willing

00:42:33

Speaker 2: to stick around and help us with another tricky question. How How would you feel about that? I'm having a good time. Good. So our next question was also kind of a tricky one, and I'll be curious. I'll be curious what you think of this one. It begins. Hi, YouTube. First, The podcast is just fabulous. And really, it should say how you three I listened to

00:42:52

Speaker 1: it will know that Steven was gonna be Oh, so Alright,

00:42:58

Speaker 2: okay, it begins. I listen to the podcast. What? I'm cooking dinner. It's always brightens my day. Second, I have a slightly embarrassing question to ask. After many years of debating this, I recently had surgery done on my nose. The procedure corrected a medical problem, and it's nice to be able to actually breathe, and I've elected to have cosmetic work done at the same time. I love my dad, but as a woman in early twenties, I didn't love having his nose parked in the middle of my face. My closest family knows about this surgery, but for a variety of reasons, I've chosen not to tell anyone else. I'm still recovering from the procedure, but we'll be back at work soon, and I'm nervous about seeing co workers, friends, etcetera. My question is this. I think the change to my face is pretty noticeable. And I suspect at least some people wonder what has changed. Is it rude for me not to tell them if they ask why I look different or if I got a haircut, etcetera. Must I explain? Many?

00:43:47

Speaker 1: Thanks. Oh, this is such a tricky one. I've thought about getting a nose job. Really? Totally. Yeah, I've got the Pete and I both have the same little bump in our nose, right, Right just over by the bridge. And, yeah, I've definitely thought about having one of those cute little aquiline noses like, Yeah, everyone. I think anybody who wasn't born and I have friends who have little noses who are like, Oh, I've always wanted a bigger knows. You're like Why? But no, it's it's true. You definitely think about it. But, um, what always just stops me personally is this. How do you handle the change? And in that moment, when everyone has changed and there are going to talk about it, they're going to notice it. Like she says, this isn't ah, small thing, it's It's not a

00:44:33

Speaker 2: nose on your

00:44:34

Speaker 1: face, E. I don't know. I personally I go in the camp of honesty, own it. You can't deny that it happened. It did happen. But, um, how far you want to talk about it, I think is is up to you. But personally, I would say own up to it. But leave it at that. Oh, yeah, I got a nose job, and then just leave it at that, or like, Oh, yeah, I had I had work done. And while they were in there, I had them, you know, correct this, that or the other thing, too. Um, I say just leave it at that and then just just, like, move on. So you have that report for so and so e don't know. What would you guys dio

00:45:11

Speaker 2: Dan? Have you considered changing your nose? Boy, I all of a sudden I am. I've got the post bump too. But I never thought of

00:45:18

Speaker 1: this. No, you have the sending knows 100% man, because I think your Uncle Burt your dad Yeah, that's true. You're like your young man compared to the two of them. But you definitely have your Dad's knows for sure. There's noses everywhere. There's noses everywhere. Everyone does have one. Uh huh.

00:45:35

Speaker 2: You know, I I don't know if you if, you know, maybe this is why you wanted me to be on this for this particular.

00:45:41

Speaker 1: Did you have a nose job? Are we about to get a confession on our show?

00:45:45

Speaker 2: I did not have a nose.

00:45:47

Speaker 1: I got really excited, Stephen. No. But,

00:45:52

Speaker 2: um, last year in the New York Times, I wrote about having an eye job on, um, it was part of it was part of a piece about the search for eternal youth s, uh on it got a lot of response. And then it got picked up by the Daily Mail in London. Fun. However, they kind of so they kind of obscured. May, of

00:46:18

Speaker 1: course, that

00:46:19

Speaker 2: was, like, the most vain man in America. No. Oh, Steven. Andi. Then And then they pulled these pictures of me from the web and did all these close ups like they and they zeroed in on my nose, and I'm gonna say it right here on the podcast. My nose does, um, tilt a little bit to the left. And so a lot of there were hundreds of comments and like, Why did you get a night job? He really needed to

00:46:46

Speaker 1: get. They did not. Oh, those trolls. I can't believe it.

00:46:52

Speaker 2: So it's actually did a follow up piece in The Times. Just recently, when Renee Zellweger's new face was debuted on Do you know? And I said, You know,

00:47:02

Speaker 2: people stop being involved in other people's business

00:47:06

Speaker 1: Stop being so nosy.

00:47:08

Speaker 2: Stop being so nosy. Mind was. But really, um, you know, I think, you know, on the public stage, that's that's one. That's one way to look at it. But, you know, for those who have a colleague or friend who has some work done,

00:47:22

Speaker 2: it's really it's a medical procedure and generally it's not. It's not nice to ask about medical procedures question as to whether the individual wants to disclose what he or she did. But I always you know, toe folks, you know, don't ask unless you're told, um again, I think that's really sound advice. Um, but you you got the whole confession out of me. Lucy, you're very good interviewer.

00:47:49

Speaker 1: I like it. E also like your bravery for going after it because I think as we age, I think we all do. It's it's it's a change in identity. I mean, I do not look like the four year old girl that I was, you know, as a little kid and I'm not going at 80. I'm not going to look like the 32 year old that I am now. And I think that when you you live with your face for a really long time, and I think you should be completely happy and confident in it. And we live in a day and age where there are ways that you can change it if you see fit. And I think that people should do that if they want.

00:48:23

Speaker 2: Thio. I couldn't couldn't agree more. And just since we're being confessional, I about two years ago had the LASIK surgery, and I didn't think of it as a cosmetic choice At the time, I just wanted to see, but I don't wear glasses anymore, wore glasses for 20 years and it really did change my appearance and I walked out of the building thinking, you know, that was elective, like I could say it was medical, but it wasn't medically necessary. I chose to do it and it really changed my appearance. And

00:48:50

Speaker 1: now he's getting married. Getting just totally kidding. I know we're going to get comments for that one.

00:48:57

Speaker 2: But whatever I know Dan is gonna wind up in a laser commercial,

00:49:00

Speaker 1: right? But in answer to our persons question, I do think that no matter what, if you're going to be, you know, if this changes as drastic as you say it was, if it's pretty obvious that this is what had happened, if you're not going to tell anyone, you need to prepare yourself for the whispers because you're gonna hear them. You are going thio, and it's just important for you to prepare yourself to deal with all that.

00:49:25

Speaker 2: Yes, and I think absolutely right, Lizzie. And being prepared about what you're going to say if you're going to say something ahead of time is also wise and how far you want to go. You know, I had a medical procedure to correct such and such.

00:49:40

Speaker 2: And the discussion? Yeah.

00:49:42

Speaker 1: I think about

00:49:43

Speaker 2: this new power point that's so exciting.

00:49:46

Speaker 2: Oh, and aren't they exciting? David, thanks again for your help with that question. anytime you hear that, she says, you're not as

00:49:58

Speaker 1: ruedas you used to be. What? What do you know? Thanks to everyone for sending in your questions, you can submit your question toe Awesome etiquette. Emily post dot com You can also send them in via Facebook and Twitter. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette so that we know you want your question on the show.

00:50:21

Speaker 1: So as we've gone through our show today, you've listened to our wonderful guest, Stephen Petro, and we asked him if he would stick around a little longer for our Ault segment today. Just to talk about life is an etiquette expert. I mean, we are in a very small pool of people with this job profession, and it is kind of a strange thing, Steven, I'm sure that you run into the problem that I've talked about with Dan millions of times. Which is that any time you go anywhere and you say what you dio, the next thing is you turn into everyone's private etiquette. Coach, I have a question for you and your in your brain. I'm sure you also just go. Oh, I bet you do have five more after it to

00:51:02

Speaker 2: on. I've got a book to sell, you

00:51:04

Speaker 1: know. Oh, God, that's a good line. We're gonna need to use that. But how? What is it? What is it like for you and you? Definitely kind of, uh, have e. I mean, you're in etiquette expert across the board, But you also do have this wonderful niche of of sort of being Ah, uh, LGBT, uh, etiquette expert. I almost said wedding etiquette expert. And I was like, No, just etiquette expert. And, um, and sort of tell us about what it's like in your world. Azaz an etiquette expert.

00:51:34

Speaker 2: Well, you know, I often get asked the question like, How did how did I become an etiquette expert? A tely East. You guys have a really good genetic answer.

00:51:44

Speaker 1: But you were born into it. I don't know. I couldn't

00:51:47

Speaker 2: avoid it. What's your excuse on? Uh, you know, I often joke and say, Well, yes, when I was eight years old, that's what I wanted to be.

00:51:55

Speaker 1: Oh, like that one.

00:51:57

Speaker 2: A complete untrue. You know, the closer to the truth is that I have been a journalist for a long time, and most of the major etiquette experts. Um, going back 100 years sort of shifted over from journalism. And I believe that Emily Post, um, Judith Martin had been had been a journalist at The Washington Post. And so it's a little bit, um, I think the curiosity of the world that I, um that, uh, talk about and then

00:52:30

Speaker 2: I don't know that you guys some effort to impose order in a world very confusing to May onto others on bond. Uh, well, I'll tell you, is one of things that really drew me to Your advice is it's It's so grounded in, um, values. It's it's ethical, its moral, it's and and that's really the framework that we operate from it at Emily Post. And it's one of the reason I was so looking forward to having you be part of this discussion when you talk about holding the line and both, uh, having a curiosity about the world, which I think is such a such a treat to cultivating oneself but then also have them.

00:53:09

Speaker 1: A sense of some responsibility

00:53:10

Speaker 2: to the world, I think, is also an important part of it. And and I really appreciate that perspective as Well, well, likewise. Likewise, Dan. And can I tell us up the question for the three of us that's related on, you know, because I sometimes say, Well, you know, I'm an etiquette maven, and I don't I don't really know whether maven is feminine or masculine, the town feminine to may. But, you know, Daniel, being a guy in this business seems a little different than Lizzie. You're Peggy, uh, e think about that. I chose to professions in the world where, um I find myself sort of strangely in the minority. I worked in professional dance where you have many fewer men than women And how, in the etiquette profession where oftentimes people do, um, Emily got started in this field because people assumed as a woman that's what she would be writing about. She said she applied her, her intelligence, her area of agency, the social sphere. And it's true today when the producers for national television are looking for people to talk about etiquette, they gravitate to the women in the family, and I really give a lot of credit to my Uncle Peter. He was the man that cracked the nut, so to speak. Who said. You know, I could be a netiquette author to I could be a part of this tradition, and I really appreciate the I might even call it trailblazing work that he did generation for saying that that that this is not just the territory for the women in our family, but that the men could do this work also.

00:54:37

Speaker 1: And he also I remember him saying, You know, kind of giving you the warning speech of this is gonna be hard. They are going to ask for the for the girls, meaning my sister and me over you. And there are times when even if it's your Bailey Wick, if it's your you know category that you're really strong at, they'll still want that female voice. And that's a really hard thing, because everything Dan has to say is Justus valid? Just a strong. He's a very good looking guy, So it's not like you wouldn't want him on camera on your show and that it is one of those inequalities that happens the other way. I mean, we were you know, you talk about feminism and you talk about that inequality, Um, and that can happen in the other direction, and this is one of the very few fields where that happens

00:55:26

Speaker 2: in. And that's that's very true. And I just want to do a call out to your book on online manners down and, you know,

00:55:32

Speaker 2: great book first book in the field. So useful, so and and and and I'll do the similar call back the column and use a today. Brilliant. Nice to see it on the national plan,

00:55:44

Speaker 1: Mutual Admiration Society members. And I'll tell you,

00:55:48

Speaker 2: just a way to start to walk us out the door. One of them are great. Listeners suggested that we call this segment social studies. And

00:55:55

Speaker 1: who did that? I missed that. I did not see that comment. I want to see that comment.

00:55:59

Speaker 2: I think it's absolutely brilliant social studies. I like the idea of a discussion. That's about how we are a social beings and creatures. And

00:56:07

Speaker 2: I like that phrase. I would like to be a good guest and reciprocate your hospitality today and invite the two of you to join me on one of my Washington Post

00:56:16

Speaker 1: live chats in the

00:56:17

Speaker 2: next.

00:56:17

Speaker 1: We would love that. That would

00:56:21

Speaker 2: enjoy this. Waiting another into another audio.

00:56:24

Speaker 1: I I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it.

00:56:27

Speaker 2: Looking forward to it. Yes.

00:56:29

Speaker 1: In other words, we're rsv peeing. Yes, and we're rsv being Yes, right now.

00:56:33

Speaker 2: Thank you for RSVPs, period.

00:56:35

Speaker 1: Exactly. Stephen, thank you so much for joining us on the show today. We think your advice is absolutely invaluable. And we really hope that we can have more guests visits from you in the future.

00:56:49

Speaker 2: I would love that. And we'll see you. Yes,

00:56:51

Speaker 1: we'll see you all the best to you.

00:56:56

Speaker 1: Social courtesy does pay, doesn't it? Thanks. Each week we like to end our show on a positive note with an awesome etiquette salute to someone or a group of people who are out there making the world a nicer place. Dan, whose air salute to today our salute.

00:57:16

Speaker 2: Today we're gonna break our own rules just a little bit. We try not to give salutes to people that we know too often internally. We really like to get our salutes from you, our listeners. But today our salute is going to you, our listeners and particularly to that subset of listeners who have contributed to this show and That's the folks that have sent in your questions, which we really appreciate. We thrive on them. The show couldn't happen without them. But also all of the comments and the feedback that we get both in our email box and on social media. Lizzie and I really do appreciate everything that you send our way. Um,

00:57:51

Speaker 1: it lets us know that

00:57:52

Speaker 2: you're out there and it makes the show better. And we love hearing from you, and we appreciate that you take the time to give us that feedback. So

00:58:00

Speaker 2: we really want to thank you, our listeners and particularly that group of listeners who continue to inform and educate us along the way

00:58:07

Speaker 1: well and to engage with us. I mean, the nicest thing in the world for us is to know that you're listening and to know that you care. And, you know, even when you send us something that you didn't like, it lets us know that you care. Well, Dan could say particularly, I might not seem particularly. I'm just a little bit more sensitive. That's all. But it is. It is true. We appreciate that you care, and you care enough to write in and that you dio you get something out of the show. And that's what we always believed it was there. And we're so grateful to American public media for giving us the chance to then explore whether it's there. And you all did us the wonderful service of writing in and proving to the world that etiquette matters and that what what we say makes an impact on your life. And we're very grateful for that.

00:58:53

Speaker 2: And we're getting close to our 20th episode. We're hearing from people all over the world, and I couldn't say it any better than Lizzie to set it. We're so grateful for all of you. So thank you for what you dio

00:59:02

Speaker 1: like we say you're out there hopefully making the world a nicer place because this matters to you.

00:59:09

Speaker 1: Well, now wasn't that better? Look at the effect of a little politeness. That's our show for today. Thank you for listening. Thank you to our wonderful guest, Stephen Petro, for being on the show. We hope you have a wonderful week and that your knowledge of etiquette was expanded and that you will check out Stephen's columns and books because they truly are excellent resource is remember that we would love to hear from you, So send us your questions, your etiquette salutes and your suggestions to awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. If you like what you hear, we want you to tell the world. So tweet it, Facebook. Post it. And of course, you can always subscribe on iTunes and leave us a review. This is no. Be quiet and listen, podcast. We want to hear from you. You can find us on Facebook, where the Emily Post Institute on Twitter I am at was a post and at Daniel Underscore Post. Or you can visit our website Emily post dot com are wonderful. Theme music was composed by my dear friend Bob Wagner.