Episode 22 - Happy Valentine’s Day!
Speaker 1: ah the holidays have come and gone and my bank account is still overdrawn. Maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social, could you see it's old fashioned,
Speaker 1: watch how busy post and damn post sent to act as host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person, real friendliness, love is in the eighth and we love being here with you. Welcome to a special valentine's day episode of awesome etiquette.
Speaker 1: Our podcast comes to you with Love from the Infinite Guest network from american public media. I'm lizzie post and I'm dan post sending from the Emily Post institute. What? No song dad, come on, we have a special guest joining us today because today's show is going to focus on all things dating. Isn't that appropriate. Sharon Andrea founder of Modern dating Mastery will be joining us. Sharon's she's kind of like a personal fitness coach for your love life
Speaker 1: and she's also a personal friend of mine
Speaker 1: uh you've been looking forward to getting around the show. Really looking forward to actually we met via twitter. Um, I saw her handle and said, wow, no offense man of Burlington, but wow, the men of Burlington could use some help come to my town.
Speaker 1: Um and through a series of emails and phone calls, we decided that we had some great advice that Sharon Sharon could probably share with us. So help is on the way, so help is on the way.
Speaker 1: Um, and we, we are really excited to have her on the podcast and thank goodness dan agreed to it. But first dan, I want to know because you're the one out of the two of us that would have a valentine's day, what is, what's, what's, what's your plan for your fiance? Well,
Speaker 1: so we have the, I think of as the victory lap valentine's day. Wait, hold on, pooch, If you're listening, stop listening, smaller alert. Okay, now go for it. Um, Putin, I like to eat out a lot. We have favorite restaurants, the kitchen table, as you know, a big favorite of ours are on the way home. Our first date was misery, loves company. We love going back to misery.
Speaker 1: Uh, let's go to misery for valentine's day. Great name for a restaurant. So for valentine's Day, in some ways we dial it back a little bit because that's a night when everyone else is going to be out. It's hard to get a reservation. It's a night for me to cook or something at home. We get home, we spend the night in, but we make a night of it and we make it something special. But rather than fight the crowds that particular night, So I think it was the victory lap valentine's Day, we make it special but we really spend it together. Oh that's lovely, I like that very much.
Speaker 1: It'll be me and Benny at home with a good movie way, you know, I always say it wrong if Benny and me, not me and Benny for all of our very, very attuned listeners out there, I
Speaker 1: I love being single, I was a happy single person, You were, you were a very happy single person and I um
Speaker 1: I'm like I won't say I'm jealous but I appreciate the good times that one can spend alone, either alone or doing. I'll put this way doing exactly what you want to do, what you want to do, exactly whatever that I have total control over it. It is very very nice.
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, well
Speaker 1: let's keep it short today because I kind of I'm excited to call call Sharon Andrea I like that idea, let's get started, You're right,
Speaker 1: there's so much to learn how to do. Sure there's a lot to learn, but it's worth it. And learning is easy. One way is by watching others.
Speaker 1: Yeah,
Speaker 1: On every episode of awesome etiquette we take your questions on how to behave and today, Sharon Andrea of modern dating mastery joins us to tackle your dating question. Sharon. Welcome to awesome etiquette.
Speaker 2: Hello lizzie and thank you so much for inviting me to join you know, dan, congratulations on your engagement.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. He's blushing. I'd love to have you just take a minute and describe your work so that the listeners can get a sense for what a dating expert does.
Speaker 2: Sure
Speaker 2: I work one on one with men in various stages of life, some are ready to date again after a break up or divorce and just feel out of their element. Many are single guys who've been at it for some time and just don't feel dating is going well and if you are even married and simply want to really impress their wives.
Speaker 1: No, I like that one.
Speaker 2: The reason I refer to myself as a personal trainer is because as with so many areas in life, be it managing your finances or improving your golf swing, certainly building muscle at the gym. Sometimes you just need somebody, you need to have an expert in your corner to give you an edge,
Speaker 2: amplify your strength. See where you have blind spots and teaching new ways to really master your life and be your best self.
Speaker 1: I liked it.
Speaker 2: I liked it So very often I will say I'm simply helping to demystify women for my clients because I know at times we can be really baffling.
Speaker 1: Yes, we can be dan. Would you agree as our, as our male in the conversation? I've got this look on my face like, Yeah, that says, yeah, that could be really helpful
Speaker 2: mysteries, unlock
Speaker 1: mysteries unlock. Well with that, let's let's have you help us answer some listener questions today, Are you ready?
Speaker 2: Love to?
Speaker 1: Okay, this question begins. I have just started seeing a woman I really like. We got together around the holidays and I'm wondering what to do about valentine's day while we are definitely dating. It seems like there's a lot that could go wrong with this holiday. Either over doing it or not doing enough.
Speaker 1: What should I do? Yes, I think it's tricky just because
Speaker 1: not ever, I was never one who loved to celebrate valentine's day. So what,
Speaker 1: like how do you know when it's that early young relationship?
Speaker 1: What do you do? How do you approach this? It's so focused on love and relationships, There is no escape, there's pressure, it's coming, you're either going to do something or not do something. So what do you do Sharon? What do you think?
Speaker 2: Well, I think it is a fabulous awareness on the part of the sky that the holiday is fraught with potential
Speaker 2: landmines, so he's ahead of the game right there,
Speaker 2: what he wants to do something? The big question is what it is perfectly okay
Speaker 2: with a new person to just pose a really casual question and say, hey, is there anything special you'd like to do together for valentine's Day?
Speaker 2: She may leave it up to you, but she may actually, you know,
Speaker 2: say what she wants and that's really great, you know,
Speaker 1: and would you advise if you're a woman being asked that question, it's okay. I would assume like my advice would be, it's okay to say what you want. Like, hey,
Speaker 1: I'm not really into this holiday, but you know, just just spending time with you would be nice or I love valentine's day. So anything you want to plan, let me know. I'd love to help or something, be honest because you're going to get what, which asked. Right, right, right.
Speaker 2: And then we'll take women at face value, Whatever we say is what they're hearing.
Speaker 2: Um,
Speaker 2: and dinner is always a good idea. Go from her cues, but dinner is always a good idea. You can cook for her, which is incredibly romantic. Or if you do plan to go out, make your reservations today so that your
Speaker 1: right on
Speaker 2: what's a very busy night?
Speaker 1: What about gifts? Like we kind of have always said, don't go extravagant if it's a young relationship. And what kind of things would you say might be over the top?
Speaker 2: Absolutely. You don't want to go over the top.
Speaker 2: Really? Almost any piece of jewelry, unless it's something like really artsy from a craft fair and doesn't resemble a diamond ring. Um, I think it's really thoughtful and a woman will appreciate the thoughtfulness.
Speaker 1: So something so like Loki jewelry as opposed to
Speaker 2: key, artsy, inexpensive jewelry, not something cheap from walmart, no offense walmart, but um, you know, not a cheap imitation of something fancy, but something very casual. Yeah. And edibles. You know, everybody loves most. Everybody loves chocolate.
Speaker 2: I
Speaker 1: do. I love chocolate. What about flowers? Are flowers out of fashion?
Speaker 2: Flowers are never out of fashion.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you said that a
Speaker 2: big fan of one flower. I think I sort of feel sorry for people who feel compelled to buy a dozen roses. If it's just not a realistic thing in their budget,
Speaker 2: I say you can buy one row, you can buy one Kallio and a great idea. If you know her favorite color,
Speaker 2: fine flowers in that color,
Speaker 1: it will personalize it a little bit.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Really
Speaker 1: I always liked the idea of going and having an experience together because like for me that's something that
Speaker 1: it's not over the top. She carries the memory of it with her. But it's, it's not like if it doesn't work out by next month that there's this thing that was purchased for. So like I like, you know, maybe going to a great museum and then dinner afterwards or
Speaker 1: you know a play or a movie or something, something you can go do together. Maybe there's like a beautiful place to go for a really romantic walk. Have an experience, make a memory you and pooja often go for walks on the mountain. And I'm assuming that those are probably some of your favorite times together.
Speaker 1: Just spend a little time without a tv on or a phone in your pocket. Walking and talking can be um, a surprising treat. So just to, to walk us through this, this question a little bit. Um, I really like the idea of communicating early,
Speaker 1: um, making a plan early so that you've got a reservation if you want. And then there are a few good ideas there for some other things you can do cooking a meal
Speaker 1: of course a little edible treats, maybe flowers, maybe thinking about creating some kind of experience together. And I'd love to put a little bow on this question with a thought that often in our business training when we're presenting people with choices, we see if you can approach it through the lens of opportunity, not obligation. So it's not valentine's day is coming. I have to do something. It's
Speaker 1: valentine's day is coming to have a chance to do something and you can really you can really craft that moment into a the opportunity that you want it to be. So
Speaker 1: that approach I think can help as much as the particular decision that you might.
Speaker 2: That's beautiful. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we hope that that helps you our listener anonymous. We must admit all our questions today are anonymous. I don't think anybody wanted to share their valentine's Day questions. So we hope that that helps and best of luck celebrating valentine's day.
Speaker 1: Our next question begins, Dear Lizzie and Daniel. I'm hoping you can help me out on your dating episode with a problem I've run into before that has resurfaced recently. Here goes, I'm currently online dating and I've had the same gentleman cancel on me for our first date twice.
Speaker 1: He seems to still want to have a first date, but I'm getting worried that maybe he's just bad at rejection
Speaker 1: or he gets cold feet,
Speaker 1: I want to be flexible, but I also get disappointed when he cancels and I don't want to hang too much hope on the state.
Speaker 1: Is there a way to tell him this without sounding like I'm difficult or unforgiving?
Speaker 1: Three strikes and you're out? I know she, Is that what you think? What do you what do you think sharing three strikes and you're out?
Speaker 2: Uh
Speaker 1: He's canceled twice. Yeah, this would be if he doesn't, if you want to.
Speaker 2: Okay, you guys are a little more generous than I, but I think that's because not because I'm unforgiving, but I'm very stingy with my time. Um And I just want to reassure her
Speaker 2: that it has absolutely no bearing on how fabulous
Speaker 2: you are. Online sites are veritable candy stores of options. And it does happen often that in the uh lead time between when you're asked out and the date of the date he may come across somebody else.
Speaker 2: And it does happen. Not everybody is good at saying no, we've had this conversation you and I see not everyone is good at saying at cancelling and speaking their truth. And so
Speaker 2: uh if I were her I would very kindly say no thank you
Speaker 2: and if he's really interested he will hound you. But if he's not you've just given him an out that he could not request him.
Speaker 1: Oh I didn't think of that at first when I was hearing you say don't give him that third chance I was going, but he says he's still interested. This is probably why I'm not good at dating um You know, but he says he's still interested is she's getting the feeling like this is just circumstantial.
Speaker 1: But I kind of like your idea of first giving him the no and then if he really wants to pursue it
Speaker 1: and I think it would also a little bit not that I believe in testing people at all, I want to make that really, really clear because I don't got serious, I got actually into a big fight with a dude, I wasn't dating about this.
Speaker 1: Um He used to test women on, he would open their car door for them and let them sit in the car and if they didn't
Speaker 1: reach over and unlock his door for them for him, he would never date them again. And I thought that was the movie thing is it really? So he wasn't even, this isn't his own twisted thinking and it's the point of the whole movie, it's like a major like hook, it's just to me it's disgusting. It's like give me a break and nowadays it's like not even a problem because everyone's got like clicky key locks and stuff like that, but
Speaker 1: at any rate side story side um
Speaker 1: I I got nervous but I kind of like the idea that it pushes him to be confident and say you know, no I I really do want to go on this on this date with you. I just feel awful that I've had to cancel twice
Speaker 1: and it gives him a little barrier so you earn it a little bit. What would you do dan if a girl did that? If she said
Speaker 1: if you tried to go out with her twice, you were the one that had to cancel both times and she said no I don't want to go again. Would you leave her alone or would you go after? I really, I mean I don't think it's a disqualifier. I do think there's so much that goes on particularly in a relationship and it's it's hard to know exactly what's going on with someone else. But I really like Sharon's answer. Also in that I'm pretty protective of my time after someone has canceled on you twice.
Speaker 1: Um and I don't know how far into the planning we're talking about someone got here, they picked a restaurant where they were they ready to go or was it? I'd love to do that. And there was never really solidified what she
Speaker 2: dressed and at the door with her nails done.
Speaker 1: Exactly. The
Speaker 2: important thing about her communication as it needs to be gentle and non reactive and just
Speaker 2: to really pleasant.
Speaker 2: No, thank you.
Speaker 2: And so that he knows she's not angry.
Speaker 1: No need to go into a long explanation of why you're we tried this twice before it didn't work. I'm really not interested in going. What about like a simple though? Like um um no, I understand. It's okay. Like just something something because sometimes I worry that
Speaker 1: on the page because I'm assuming if they're doing online dating
Speaker 2: mm
Speaker 1: this is probably messaging back and forth on the page, just writing. No, thank you. I think could come across as abrupt. Is there any other language that you guys think you could give her?
Speaker 2: That's a very good point. She could say, I can see you're very busy and I totally sympathize just give me a call when you're less busy.
Speaker 1: Oh, I like that. I like that because then it does give him a little bit of an encouragement, but it's still if you need time you go take your time.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And anybody could interpret anything as abrupt that could even sound abrupt, but that's why I encourage people to use
Speaker 2: phone. I know it's really uncomfortable, especially the younger you are, but it saves you from so many missed meanings. And the misunderstandings are just infinite.
Speaker 1: I like that piece of advice that don't forget the phone as an intermediate step. Maybe before you see someone in person, you've got an opportunity to to learn a little something about them just based on the quality of their voice, how they talk.
Speaker 1: And that's if you have the chance to do that. She's online dating so she might not be at that step. But I would hope that I hope they've exchanged phone numbers if they're setting up dates. But you never know.
Speaker 1: Well we hope that that helps and we we hope that whether or not you get that first date with this gentleman or you get another first date with someone else that that it goes a lot smoother and you have more confidence when these sort of dating online dating hiccups happen
Speaker 1: and best of luck on
Speaker 2: valentine's of luck.
Speaker 1: Our next question comes from our question and answer blog, the etiquette Daily. And it begins,
Speaker 1: I'm a financially secure woman in my late 30s, dating a great guy who's also financially secure. We started out as friends without expectations, which is why I think we have so much fun
Speaker 1: in the beginning of our friendship when we would go eat, I offered to pay for mine and he accepted I'd never had that happen before. And at a later time we talked about it. He has been financially responsible for his mother and I feel I am being tested now that we're getting more serious. I'm becoming uncomfortable with this dutch idea.
Speaker 1: Money is the topic. But for me, the real issue is I miss the special feeling that comes when a guy pays for dinner. How do I address this?
Speaker 1: That's such a good question. Because it is this funny thing for as wonderful as a woman as it feels to be independent.
Speaker 1: There is this other part of and I'm not trying to put words in all women's mouths. But for me it is
Speaker 1: it does feel really special when a guy takes you out to dinner. It's nice. It's nice to feel like you're taking care of in a way, even though you can stand on your own two ft, I don't know, just for a moment to have someone make the effort to take care of you. And she does mention that he's taking care of his mother right now, which might
Speaker 1: be why he's appreciative of their dutch treat.
Speaker 1: It's sort of M. O. That they have Sharon. What do you think? Would she be able to bring it up?
Speaker 2: She definitely could and I believe should bring it up. Um
Speaker 2: I'm assuming when she says, I feel I'm being tested that she is implying that he's
Speaker 2: concerned that she may be gold vigorous if she expects more. Am I interpreting that right? Do you think
Speaker 1: maybe I just, what I'm reading here is that he's got responsibilities, financial responsibilities and either he's limited in his funds or it matters to him that his partner is able to contribute in the relationship. That's what
Speaker 2: I'm generally okay. Nothing, nothing awful.
Speaker 1: No, they've been friends for a while. I think he would know if she was gold digger and I'm repeating this is a relationship transition question that they were friends and stage of the relationship. She liked this, this equitable relationship and as the relationship has started to take on more significance for her, she's looking for a certain feeling that used to come with this experience of being treated and
Speaker 2: dating. Yes, exactly. That's one of the two things I'm thinking, first of all, when she brings up the conversation,
Speaker 2: it's imperative that she'd be very crystal clear that she's
Speaker 2: desirous of an emotional experience, that it's the feeling of being given to. It really makes her feel wonderful to be with him. And I'm sure she can point to some examples that they've experienced already together, where she felt really attended to. It
Speaker 2: made her feel
Speaker 2: really good and really good about them and
Speaker 2: people, especially in new relationships, really do want to please the other person. True. And so he'd be hard pressed not to meet whatever needs she is expressing. And if he can do that financially, I believe you will. I
Speaker 1: love the language that you chose and the angle that you're coming at that from that idea of don't talk about it is I want you to pay for me. It's
Speaker 1: when these things happen, these experiences happen. It just does make me feel so wonderful and appreciated and taken care of. And it puts so much more meaning behind that action of being, of having someone pay for dinner, pay for your movie ticket or whatever it is
Speaker 1: that it takes so much of the pressure off of it actually being about the money and it's much more about the feelings that come with it,
Speaker 2: right? And the emotional bonding that can result, right?
Speaker 1: Oh wow. Oh, listener, I hope you really like that answer because I'm like giving it five stars and it takes a dollar sign off it, it's not about, you know, you buy into the relationship with your available cash or spending cash and and we always say that's the thought that counts behind a gift. And this is really an example of the thought being. Generosity is that I also like Sharon where you started your answer talking about crystal clear communication because my sort of the thing that jumps into my mind when I
Speaker 1: I read this question is that communication is key. That it's really important in relationships to be able to talk to each other. And I like how you said crystal clear communication and I don't want to dance around
Speaker 2: it. Yes,
Speaker 2: and I want to acknowledge it's not easy. I know that it's not, but it just takes a lot of creativity and um practice.
Speaker 1: I like it Well. We hope our listener is able to get creative and practice this one because I think it will help your relationship if you if you do talk about it and express your needs and what you want. A parting thought I have again from the lens of opportunity here, it's a real chance to talk about how much this relationship is meaning to you, that you really care about it, You're invested in it. And if you approach the conversation like that,
Speaker 1: I almost don't think it can go badly. Well, best of luck to you listener and we hope that you have a wonderful valentine's day.
Speaker 1: You hear that? She says you're not as rude as you used to be.
Speaker 1: What do you know?
Speaker 1: Thanks to everyone for sending in your questions and remember we love updates If we answered your question on the show or if you have a comment about one of our other questions, please feel free to send it in. You can also submit your question to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com or send it in via facebook or twitter, just use the hashtag awesome etiquette so that we know you want it on the show
Speaker 1: for our fault segment. Today we are continuing our conversation with Sharon Andrea of modern dating mastery, Sharon. You and I first talked about a couple of things I was experiencing in the dating world and I wanted to touch base with you on them here for our awesome etiquette audience.
Speaker 2: Great
Speaker 1: and and I want to jump in because these are these are all topics that I've come across in a couple of different ways and I was so curious to hear some of the things that you and lizzie have been talking about, and
Speaker 1: the first one is one that definitely comes up all the time. It comes up in other etiquette contexts. And that's the concept of how to deliver a no well or how does how does it say no skillfully so that it doesn't
Speaker 1: give her or offense, but you're still clearly communicating that you're not going to attend that party or that you don't want a second date in this case. Um,
Speaker 1: so what are your thoughts on saying no skillfully?
Speaker 2: Well, nobody wants to hurt another person's feelings. Sure. Being less than honest about the fact that you're not interested ends up being much more hurtful in the end, I
Speaker 1: can attest to that. It does, it hurts way more when someone leads you on and leads you and lead you on and you think, okay, well, there's a slight chance,
Speaker 1: but that stinks. There
Speaker 2: is nothing attractive about that. And
Speaker 2: you know, ethics are an integral part of etiquette. Actually, I think I got that line from your great great grandmother's book.
Speaker 1: Oh, no way! Sounds like someone I exactly heard wrote a book about etiquette was
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, ethics really is a big part of it, caring enough about the other person to Well,
Speaker 1: yeah, I think that's the part that I always loved and you have this copyrighted line that I got so incredibly jealous and excited about when I heard that you had it. Tell us what that line is.
Speaker 2: I love my line.
Speaker 1: I love your line to I want t shirts with your line on it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is just so true. And it's helpful to remember when you're in a position to begin communicating and you're trying to figure out how much to say,
Speaker 2: kindness is not always clear and clarity is not always kind,
Speaker 2: but they're
Speaker 1: necessary.
Speaker 2: Both need to be employed.
Speaker 1: They do. They really do.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And people want to feel appreciated, not embarrassed when they've taken a risk and asked you out or expressed some interest.
Speaker 1: They also
Speaker 2: want to, they deserve
Speaker 2: whatever the truth is the truth is, and
Speaker 1: that's the case. I recently had a male friend of mine who said, you know, he let me know, he's like, hey, you know, every now and again, I feel like there is something between us and I think the world of you, like he said all these really nice things and and they all really did make me feel appreciated for exactly who I really am. Like, I felt like this friend of mine was really seeing me which is a wonderful feeling in the dating world when people often don't see you and but in the end he said, but I'm not but I am I right in thinking that you don't want to date and I was like, yes, you're right, like you're right, we do have a chemistry.
Speaker 1: There is there is something there, but at this point in my life, no, I'm not interested in exploring this further.
Speaker 1: Um but I am so incredibly grateful that you said something and that you didn't run away when I made it clear that
Speaker 1: it's not going to go further than a friendship because my friends are important to me and I didn't want to lose him as a friend. And I was, it was that thing where you're not sure fear can really, I think be one of the things that that stifles people particularly empathetic people that care about others. Oh my gosh! Action hurts and or it can hurt and you don't want to give it out, want to hurt someone else. And being an empathetic kind person can make one hesitant or withdraw from that moment or not want to deliver it. And I was glad that he made it easy for me to both to be both clear and kind about
Speaker 2: it. And that was
Speaker 2: really great of him. And I bet it strengthened your friendship a little bit too.
Speaker 1: Yes, I would say that it has if anything what it did was it really allowed for the two of us to be on the same page
Speaker 1: and I don't have to worry when I hang out with him that he is misinterpreting our flirtatious fun nature with each other as something more because we've made it clear and we've talked about this before, that you're as good as anyone I know about being honest and delivering that. You know what?
Speaker 1: Um and now I'm trying to break it down and what are what are the like
Speaker 1: when I just heard what you said it was it was clear. It was a no, but what were the elements of that? No, that made it a good, know what are the component? I think you'd have to ask him. I mean I said I I said no, clearly, um I didn't deny that there was a chemistry. I was like, no,
Speaker 1: you are, you are right to have interpreted that. There is, there is something there but
Speaker 1: at this point in my life and where our friendship is, I don't want to explore that, acknowledging him, perspective that he's coming from having some validity. Absolutely. I wanted to make sure he knew that he wasn't just totally off his rocker thinking, you know, all this girls interested in me, like no, I had given him, you told him you cared about him broadly and the relationship that you already had, but I explained exactly how I wanted it to look in the future.
Speaker 2: It seems to like you expressed appreciation for him raising the subject Yes, and that feels good to receive.
Speaker 1: It's true. I never want to make someone feel bad for being interested. I never want to be made to feel bad for being interested in someone. Um and I
Speaker 1: I always want to acknowledge how hard it is to put your feelings. I'm terrible at it. I am terrified of letting gentlemen that I actually really like know that I really like them.
Speaker 1: I'm sure I'm sure my actions around them are obvious, but it's it's terrifying. And in fact, you know, in recent months, I can even remember the one time that I did let somebody know. It was it was incredibly difficult for me. So I always want to
Speaker 1: um let let someone else know that I appreciate how incredibly brave and hard that that is. You just hit on something that I think is brilliant. The idea that you can thank them for the ask and the appreciation. Because I was starting to wonder to myself, what if you aren't good friends with the person? What if you don't want to continue a friendship? What if it's just a no, what if you're saying no to someone who's just asking you and there isn't going to be anything moving forward.
Speaker 1: That ability to little appreciate their daring or the ask is a
Speaker 2: Good one. I have a little thing, a little technique for that and I don't think I came up with this
Speaker 2: uh name, but I call it the feedback sandwich and it's used during its a classic that is a class during employee reviews. Maybe it's an HR thing, positive, a negative and then a positive,
Speaker 2: for example,
Speaker 2: I really enjoyed meeting you.
Speaker 2: I that's the positive. Don't feel we're a good match, however, there's the negative,
Speaker 2: but I really do appreciate your inviting me out.
Speaker 1: I love that. I love, I also love ending it on the the appreciating the invitation invitation because you know, it's
Speaker 1: I hate the women who when you're out at a bar with your girlfriends and a guy comes up to talk to them and they put this disgusted look on their face as if
Speaker 2: why
Speaker 1: are you talking to me? Like it's cruel, it's rude. It's the most
Speaker 1: I get mad at my girlfriend's. If I if I see a girlfriend do it, it's not something I appreciate being around. It's not someone I want to go out downtown with,
Speaker 2: right?
Speaker 1: It is, it is it is tough out there. Sharon I wanted to get your your input on something or actually more so share it because you and I did, this is one that we really did talk about.
Speaker 1: I was I was having trouble because I do meet a lot of people in friendly settings, settings that are not about dating at all, but it's I run a coed pickup soccer group on thursday night and and you know you do
Speaker 1: meet people through that and I had had the experience a couple times where I become friends with someone and we decided to go grab dinner one night, you know,
Speaker 1: and I show up jeans and a sweater kind of thinking like all right, it's when my soccer buddies and he shows up significantly more dressed up than I would expect, you know, maybe even a tie and and then he offers to pay for my dinner, but we're still friends. And I haven't heard anything about this being called a date, but I'm really at the end wondering
Speaker 1: was I just on a date, did he think it was a date? Did I just get like, is this what just happened? It was a day. Damn it. I don't know what happened. And I'm curious what how
Speaker 1: how can you figure out, Well, how do you know if it's a date or not?
Speaker 2: There is often one person who knows whether it's a date and it
Speaker 1: is not usually me in that circumstance,
Speaker 2: usually in control. Well, I think control is actually an interesting aspect.
Speaker 2: It does make us feel safer
Speaker 2: to be able to define or label
Speaker 2: what we're doing and what it is,
Speaker 2: but there is a beauty and romance about life
Speaker 2: unlabeled, you know, so that's the beauty of gracefully allowing an ambiguity, enjoying the present moment, enjoying the other person. Um, so I think when we just stay open and we don't
Speaker 2: given to our compulsion, I'm not calling you compulsive, everybody does this, but you know, the human need to label, then we stay more open to the unknown and
Speaker 2: surprises can happen. Um, so there's that, but I also understand the practical aspects of
Speaker 2: is this a date? Should I, you know, it takes you significant, don't It takes me significantly longer to get ready for a date and then just figure out with friends is the whole like degree of makeup aspects and so you want to be able to plan. Um,
Speaker 2: I advise people to dress as though you're going on a date
Speaker 2: just in case
Speaker 2: and show up and to see what happens
Speaker 2: if nothing else you're going to look gorgeous while you're out with your friends.
Speaker 1: So just no matter what, at least look good,
Speaker 2: if you're vain,
Speaker 1: if you're vain,
Speaker 2: well,
Speaker 1: depending on on what day it is, I am going to tackle in the world looking good. What do you think dan, first of all your example went a different direction than I imagined really at the date ambush where I'm going out with friends all of a sudden it's a date or you just don't know. I've heard, I still don't know whether it was a day going the other way. I've had people come up because I thought I was on a date
Speaker 1: the end of the meal, they wanted to split the check and now I don't know, or I, you know, I did, you had that woman from a seminar, people who don't know how to ask, it's like, oh let's get together, and is that a date or is that friends getting together? I'm not, I'm not exactly sure, let's get together for drinks and then uh
Speaker 1: okay, that's probably not a date that's getting together for drinks, but people unsure about about the ask really clarifying what it is from the other direction. They wanted to notch it up to a date or thinking of his date than finding out isn't as opposed to
Speaker 1: thinking you're hanging out with friends and then finding out it's a date
Speaker 1: for me. One of the answers to this comes from, for those of you don't know, Lizzie wrote her first book pretty much while still in college, called How do you work this life thing? And in it there is a great tip and I read it as someone in their provided a good tip in their mid twenties and it really helped me figure out how to work this life thing and it was the elements of a good ask.
Speaker 1: I remember the elements of a good ask from your, how did you work this life thing? I know that clarity is the biggest point. That was the part that I took away from that. You ask someone to do something specific, you don't say hey do you want to hang out? You say would you like to get, would you like to do this with me then
Speaker 1: and that you actually give them something to respond to and I have been doing the bad ask and I read your chapter on the Good Ask and I said to myself, I need to I'm going to embarrass myself and laugh and say so I think that's in the book because I am so thickheaded. Like I'm I'm so just not assuming ever that people are interested, that I'm like, oh yeah, you go grab drinks, that'd be great. Like I, you know, I live alone with my dog. I mean if I could, I'd bring him to the bar, but like, it's, you know, it's like, I'm like social. Yeah, I'd love to be social for a minute. Hang on, I don't, it's like, it's so
Speaker 1: it's not what I think about that often. I mean obviously, yes, because I am searching for someone in my life, I think about it, but
Speaker 1: I'm so thickheaded about it. I need someone to be clear and be like, I like you, I'd like to take you on a date. And I think it's something where traditional etiquette can give us a guide in a world where there are more shifting lines, more grey area that the elements of a good invite are still the elements of a good invite. You give someone something concrete, you give them a time and a place in an activity and then they can say yes, that would be lovely. I would like to go do that or no, no, thank you. And right,
Speaker 1: you start to assume the role of the host a little bit by by making an invite that's clear and it starts to put some parameters on the experience that give a label that helped make people comfortable the way Sharon was talking. I'm thinking back because I totally have recently used the vague ask like, hey, you wanna like hang out,
Speaker 1: take our dogs for walks sometime. That'd be great.
Speaker 2: Biggest
Speaker 2: since
Speaker 1: I need to go back
Speaker 2: to my beat yourself up too much for that.
Speaker 1: I need to read my first
Speaker 2: book, read your younger days wisdom.
Speaker 1: 24 year old Lizzie knew nothing about dating. It is really important to be clear. Are we on a date or not? Sharon, would you ever ask someone in the middle of it?
Speaker 1: Would you ever bring it up and be like, hey,
Speaker 1: I'm just realizing we're having a great time. We both really good. Like is this a date? Are we friends? Like
Speaker 2: is not a terrible idea, but it does have dangers really has.
Speaker 2: If the answer is no, um you are now out with someone that there's, you've got awkwardness with unless you just so at ease that you can just laugh that off. I would say don't ask that unless you are 99 sure it's a date
Speaker 2: and
Speaker 2: you're, you know, just like they say, a lawyer will never ask a question that she or he doesn't know the answer to. This is one of those lawyer moments, courtroom. So where you're saying so we on a date and you can do it flirtatiously and put your hand on the person's arm
Speaker 2: and
Speaker 2: you've got to be pretty sure the answer is yes,
Speaker 1: because if they say no in your hands on their arm man, is that awkward?
Speaker 2: And it's just a weird friend moment, then you've got to slink off somehow.
Speaker 1: You're taking me back to when Harry Met sally. Oh, such a good movie.
Speaker 2: But it's you know, it's not
Speaker 2: too dorky to say I'd love to take you out on a date.
Speaker 2: No, not at all. I think there was a day like like 2025 years ago where that would have sounded really 1950s now. I think people would
Speaker 1: appreciate it. You know what was coming.
Speaker 2: People appreciate it And dating as part of our everyday vernacular because of online dating people are
Speaker 2: really and there's so many divorced people dating. So there's
Speaker 2: just a lot of chatter with that word in it. And so it's a safe word. It sounds scary in a good word. And also um that I was once at a business event and made a new friend. We felt very enthusiastic about each other really got along well and he said I think we should meet some time for tea and talk more.
Speaker 2: And I said great
Speaker 2: and I am guessing that he may have wanted to make sure that I understood his intentions were purely business and perhaps also that he is not heterosexual. Uh Two things. So he put in his email, the email arrived with the subject line
Speaker 2: and
Speaker 2: business t that it sounds so stiff and stifling. But it was very clear to me
Speaker 1: I didn't
Speaker 2: need to put on extra make up for that meeting.
Speaker 1: You're like okay I got it.
Speaker 2: I got it.
Speaker 1: And then when he talks about his boyfriend you've really got it.
Speaker 2: Yes
Speaker 2: exactly. And I'm good friends with them both
Speaker 1: now. Oh good. Well I tell you I really like it. Thank you for giving us a little clarity on demystifying a date. It's not a bad thing. It's okay to ask someone a date. It's okay to acknowledge you're on a date if you are. I like it. Thank you. Hopefully more clarity in the future. This has been such a great conversation. I wish we had more time. But unfortunately we've got to we have to mosey along and get to our etiquette salute Sharon Andrea modern dating mastery. I am so incredibly glad you were able to be here with us.
Speaker 1: Um it's been such a joy for me to talk to you in our personal lives and I love the fact that you were able to come on the show and give some of your wonderful wisdom to our listeners.
Speaker 2: It has been my great pleasure. Thank you so much for having me
Speaker 1: and I just want to second my my cousins. Thank you. I I've heard her talk about very much enjoying her conversation with you. It's really a treat and a pleasure for me to get to know you a little better myself. So also, thank you for joining us.
Speaker 2: Thank you, dan pleasure to meet you. Thank you for having me
Speaker 1: and I'm really hoping that in the future we get a chance to have you back.
Speaker 2: I'd love it.
Speaker 1: Awesome. Thanks so much. Thank you. Thank
Speaker 2: you. Bye bye.
Speaker 1: Social courtesy does pay, doesn't it? Thanks
Speaker 1: each week we like to end our show on a positive note with an awesome etiquette salute to someone who's out there making the world a nicer better place. And for today's salute, we're going to stick within the theme of the show of dating and romance and love.
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna offer a great big etiquette salute to one of the first podcast I ever listened to the Savage Love Cast with Dan Savage. Today's etiquette salute goes out to dan Savage has been offering advice about
Speaker 1: Love and relationships for I don't know, 20 years, I'm guessing maybe more. And he's done it across different platforms. He writes for the stranger weekly in Seattle, his online blog, Savage Love is another place where he addresses question and answer topics around love and relationships, and his advice. Um while I'm gonna warn our audience is is definitely not for for young listeners, it's adult content, language and themes.
Speaker 1: Um but it's also advice that's really rooted in morals and ethics. It's advice that is very sound, it's based on a lot of the same principles that Emily post etiquette is based on just applied to the oftentimes tricky world of love and human relationship.
Speaker 1: I'm also just going to jump in and say that one of the things that dan and I love so much about the Savage Love podcast is that and and truthfully all of dan Savage's advice is that it's no shame advice that um when we say it's about morals and ethics, it really comes down to how to treat another person,
Speaker 1: not how to put them in their place or judge them. Um it is so inclusive of all walks of life, all human desires and it really comes down to how your personal relationship with this other person is affected
Speaker 1: and how you should act based on that, not based on,
Speaker 1: I'm curious about this avenue of my sexual life. Is it right or wrong to explore it? It's well, it's right or wrong based on how it's going to affect you and the other people involved on it, not in it. Excuse me, not a judgment based on what you're choosing to do with your preferences in life. And that's
Speaker 1: that's as much as something I appreciate as it is kind of a warning to the listeners who may go out and listen, this is truly be open minded because dan is very open minded, dan, savage, and so is our dan. But it's to me it is it's amazing, it is amazing how he is truly able to stick to that and um keep that aspect of morals and ethics alive
Speaker 1: despite all the different scenarios that he is asked to comment on in an often confusing and complicated
Speaker 1: area. So confusing and complicated to focus on relationships that's really laser like and that the clarity that that brings to decision making in those tricky situations is really remarkable. So a great big etiquette salute to dan Savage, keep up the great work. And
Speaker 1: um we look forward to many years of Q and A and good advice from dan in the future.
Speaker 1: Well, now wasn't that better? Look at the effect of a little politeness. Well, that's our show for today. We want to thank Sharon Andrea of modern dating mastery for joining us. If you're interested in Sharon's expert advice on dating. Take a look at her website Modern dating mastery dot com as always, thank you for listening and spending some of your day with us.
Speaker 1: We hope you have a wonderful rest of your week and a lovely valentine's day. Speaking of love, we love to hear from you. So send us your questions, your etiquette salutes and your suggestions to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com.
Speaker 1: And if you like what you hear, tell the world, tweet it, facebook post it. And of course you can always subscribe on Itunes and leave us a review.
Speaker 1: This is no be quiet and listen podcast. We want to hear from you. You can find us on facebook where the Emily Post Institute on twitter, I am lizzie a coast and I'm at Daniel underscore post or you can visit our website Emily Post dot com and our theme music was so lovingly composed and performed by bob Wagner