Episode 277 - Considering Vegetarians

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Speaker 1: maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social goodness. See that's old fashioned.

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Speaker 1: Watch how busy post and they're supposed to act as host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person, real

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Speaker 2: friendliness.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to awesome etiquette

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Speaker 1: where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty.

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Speaker 2: On today's show, we take your questions on restless roomies considering vegetarians. Thank you's for thank you's

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Speaker 2: partner not included and waiting for baby

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Speaker 1: For awesome etiquette, sustaining members are question is about first names forever

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Speaker 2: plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a postscript segment on etiquette for 2020. All that coming up

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Speaker 2: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of Vermont Public radio and is proud to be produced in Burlington Vermont by the Emily Post Institute. I'm lizzie

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Speaker 1: Post and I'm dan Post sending.

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Speaker 2: I can't believe I made it through that without laughing. Yes, we were in the middle of quite the distraction and christian said 123 go and here we go.

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Speaker 2: It kind of feels like that as the year is closing out and we're coming to the new year. If it does feel a little bit like 123 go this year, like I'm not taking a long break, you know, this time of year, you're like, we're not dialing things down in the quiet of winter. I feel like we're about to amp them up.

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Speaker 1: What doesn't feel like inside a small tornado? That's what I want to know, because I think it would feel a little bit like this, like

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Speaker 2: this, like this

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Speaker 1: if that tornado was made up of like sparkling lights

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Speaker 2: and some

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Speaker 1: lovely

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Speaker 2: things and a lot of work.

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Speaker 1: Also some challenging things. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: But I was thinking back to years past on this show when we've talked about things like New Year's resolutions and I love our audience because for years and they still continue to come in. I keep getting suggestions about

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Speaker 2: substitution for swear words. I am no better at swearing and not swearing than I used to. I don't know, I do, but it is funny about like what words and substitutes have stayed over the years and that like Snickers has really, that's really been a substitute that's stuck lately. But I still think I need to work on this

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Speaker 1: one and now I just want Snickers. I'm

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Speaker 2: sorry, I do have homemade holiday candy here today. If you want some, I don't think it would sound good on the mic, but you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm actually really looking forward to it, lizzie brought in a mason jar full of her homemade toffee and when she plopped it down on the table, she says to me, it's salted, you're going to like it and I

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Speaker 2: will, you know your cousin. I do, I do. If I could have made the pickled flavor, I would

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Speaker 1: have well before we get away from a tantalizing tease, New Year's resolutions.

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Speaker 2: I know. So I was trying to think of ones this year and I am continuing to keep decreasing my swearing and foul language. But I think that

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Speaker 2: this year I also want to just go with the flow more like I really do. I really, really do. You know, there are so many things we could worry about, so many things we can stress about theirs

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Speaker 2: so much that I have that I can lean on to let me not stress as much as as badly as I could have two that I feel like I need to embrace that and rather than feel guilty or you know, feel like I have to somehow be like, you know, tough and way. I don't know, just, I want, I want to just go with the flow and be grateful for what I have. That is really what I want to come back to this year.

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Speaker 1: I'm totally inspired by

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Speaker 2: that.

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Speaker 1: I am going to follow suit with sort of a two tiered resolution. That sort of no swearing tear for me is a little more exercise. I'm turning into dad of a three year old and a six month old. I do not exercise and

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Speaker 2: still so fit. It's ridiculous that you got like

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Speaker 2: not much to worry about, but good for you. We want to exercise. I will not demean your wanting to exercise

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Speaker 1: and I'm thinking really cardiovascular health if we want to get really dorky. No. Yeah, it's my heart.

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Speaker 2: It's my heart. I need to work it exactly good for you to listen to your body. You know, as a dancer, you always you always did that and thought that way. So good for you to feel like, okay, I need this cardiovascular health to

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Speaker 1: improve and it should be

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Speaker 1: make me feel good. Right? I mean, more exercise tends to feed you. Give you more energy.

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Speaker 1: I don't know yet. I would

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Speaker 2: run with me. Do you want to run with me? We could go, oh, okay.

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Speaker 2: That is how that plays out in reality. You know, you all hear us give the sample language that's so like

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Speaker 1: nice.

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Speaker 2: But,

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Speaker 1: but

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Speaker 2: really, No, that's how we are in real life.

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Speaker 2: There's welcome, good job confronting the issue head on with an honest answer that I could appreciate.

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Speaker 1: I've been playing with the idea of a personal trainer just playing with it. I'm not quite ready to go there yet.

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Speaker 1: isn't it all? A little bit about letting someone else take some responsibility for the motivation. And I know there's also a sort of structural advantage that this is scheduled time. You've got an appointment, you've made a commitment. It makes it easier to go in some ways.

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Speaker 1: Clearly, I'm just playing with the idea.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well, good for you. Okay, so health. What's the other one

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Speaker 1: sort of in a similar vein to your idea of going with the flow?

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Speaker 1: I was thinking about slowing my flow down a little bit,

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Speaker 1: taking time to do the things that matter to me and being comfortable saying no to things that I really don't have time to approach in that way,

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Speaker 2: dan. Are you open to a bit of a challenge to your resolution?

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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 2: You already say no frequently. Not just in the start of this intro, but like you have often told me I need to say yes to more social things, I need to get involved more. So I'm like, wait a second, wait a second. You're pretty good at saying no. What do you mean? Carve out time? Like you spend most of the time is at home or with the family? Like what are we, what are we doing?

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Speaker 1: Good question.

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Speaker 2: Okay. It's why I was sort of a President Bill Bill Place challenge. No, Okay,

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Speaker 1: thank you know, and on the social side of my life,

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Speaker 1: I recognize what you're talking about and marrying pooch is one of the greatest things that ever happened to me.

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Speaker 2: And you've got a really great social life

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Speaker 1: in many ways. And one of them is that pooches, gregarious and outgoing and thrives and lives off the company of others and

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Speaker 1: I get to enjoy being a part of that. So it's like enough

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Speaker 2: for you.

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Speaker 1: It is, it works. It's it's a nice

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Speaker 1: partnership. We complement each other in those ways

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Speaker 2: that plus the fantasy football league in the winter and you're safe, you're good. Your social needs are met.

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Speaker 1: Yes. I think it's more sort of projects and in some ways, I think what inspired me about what you were saying is you're saying go with the flow. Maybe not feel as much like you're setting these markers for yourself that you're always pushing towards. It was the way I was reading that and

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Speaker 1: I like to think of myself as a high achieving sort of go for it, accomplished do things type of person and

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Speaker 1: maybe taking a nice, easy breath on

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Speaker 2: that. That okay,

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Speaker 1: is something worth

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Speaker 2: doing in 2020 leaves in the yard, don't get raked that kind of

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Speaker 1: thing. Yes. Although raking puts my mind

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Speaker 2: and I know you do love breaking

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Speaker 2: Well I like it. I think that those are both two really good resolutions for the year

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Speaker 1: and I'm hoping that our little resolution discussion maybe inspires some of our listeners out there to think about their own resolutions and maybe as in years past, share them with us.

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Speaker 2: Either that or it's put them to sleep. Either way, it's probably time for us to get to some questions

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Speaker 1: probably.

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Speaker 1: Let's get to it awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions on how to behave. If you have a question for us, you can email it to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463 on twitter. We are at Emily Post on instagram. We are at Emily Post institute and on facebook we are awesome etiquette. Just remember to use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the show and sustaining members. Remember to put sustaining members somewhere in your message. Will answer your question on the sustaining member site. Now at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette

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Speaker 1: where you can access and ad free version of the show and all your bonus questions.

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Speaker 1: Mhm.

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Speaker 2: Our first question is titled restless roommate,

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Speaker 1: dan and lizzie. Hello, I found your show a couple of months ago and have been listening to it nonstop ever since. They are particularly wonderful to listen to on my long drives home from college. I am so thankful for the work you are doing to promote etiquette to others.

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Speaker 1: A few weeks ago, I found myself in quite the predicament with my college roommate. I live on campus in a suite style dorm to double occupancy rooms with an adjoining bathroom. One friday evening I came home to find my roommate with her boyfriend and one of our suite mates in our room. It was around 10 p.m. And since I had had a long day,

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Speaker 1: I began getting ready for bed rather quickly. Once I got there

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Speaker 1: more importantly, I had to be up at 5:45 a.m. The next morning to drive home. I usually drive home on a friday afternoon rather than a saturday morning, but this time that was not an option.

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Speaker 1: My roommate already knew I would be leaving early the next morning as I made sure to let her know early in the week and politely remind her towards the end of the week.

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Speaker 1: As I was getting ready for bed, my suite mate asked me why I was getting in bed so early, explained that I had to be up early and continued to get ready for bed.

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Speaker 1: Once I finally got in the bed, my roommate's boyfriend left but our suite mate remained in the room.

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Speaker 1: They had the lights on and we're speaking rather loudly. Then my roommate asked when I was leaving in the morning, I reminded her that I was leaving at 5 45 am.

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Speaker 1: I sat on my phone for a few minutes before rolling over and letting them know that I would be going to bed. I tried to go to sleep but all of the lights were still on and my roommate and suite mate were laughing and talking very loudly.

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Speaker 1: It was impossible to sleep.

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Speaker 1: I ended up just laying there for a long while hoping I'd fall asleep or that they would decide to call it a night soon On a regular night. Having guests would not bother me. In fact, I would have loved to join them for the friday night fun. I am usually the one that loves to provide everyone's favorite snacks.

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Speaker 1: My roommate and suite mates are some of my greatest friends,

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Speaker 1: but I had a very long drive early the next morning and did not want to be tired or a hazardous driver.

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Speaker 1: Additionally, I had to go straight to an important event that I did not want to be tired for

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Speaker 1: dan and lizzie. What should I have done? What should I do in the future? Our room is my roommate space just as much as it is mine and I don't want to monopolize the space or make her feel like I am.

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Speaker 1: But this felt unfair and could have potentially lead to a dangerous situation as I drove home the next morning, thankfully I got home safely, but I definitely was not as rested as I wish I was.

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Speaker 1: Thank you in advance for your help. I know you will help me see how I could have approached the situation with consideration, respect and honesty and help me find a graceful solution for the future.

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Speaker 1: Happy holidays with gratitude, restless roomie,

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Speaker 2: restless for me. First of all, I think that you, you had good reasons for wishing for others to be considerate of you. I think any time that you're trying to wake up early and you're in the kind of living scenario where you share a bedroom with someone else, there is no common area. So even though this is a sweet, it's a suite with a bathroom

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Speaker 2: and my wish had been that the roommate and the and the other suite mate had said, hey let's go hang out in my room, you know, and just moved to the other room in the suite or gone and found a common space to hang out in. But that didn't happen. This person uh

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Speaker 2: restless were made. Can you can clearly see the bigger picture.

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Speaker 2: You hear them doing this when they say things like that, they know that this is their roommate space to and that on any other night they would have liked to have joined in. You know what I mean? Like you can hear that in the question as it's being asked.

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Speaker 2: But what I'm not hearing here

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Speaker 2: is any point where restless roommate actually asked, hey guys, could you take the conversation somewhere else? I have to be awake at four in the morning or 4 30 in the morning in order to be on the road by four, you know, 5 45.

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Speaker 2: I think that's where we're missing that next step in etiquette, right, dan.

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Speaker 1: That direct ask is certainly the next step as this tiered approach doesn't work. The mention it at the start of the week, remind at the end of the week night of give the nonverbal cues, get ready to crawl into bed.

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Speaker 1: I think you're in really good standing with that direct ask. I want to go back to the root root here and address this idea of the shared space.

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Speaker 1: Ultimately this is a shared living space, but it's a shared sleeping space. There are other places that a roommate or a suite mate can go to socialist. There aren't necessarily other places a roommate or a suite mate can go to sleep.

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Speaker 2: This is what I think is the big division between kind of who has right of etiquette way here,

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Speaker 1: I agree. And those practical concerns

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Speaker 1: put you on a good footing when it comes time to say no, I really need to carve out this time for sleep. And the fact that you don't make these asks

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Speaker 1: for arbitrary reasons or just whenever you feel like it and that there are even times where

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Speaker 1: you would

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Speaker 1: play along or join in the fun just because you could.

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Speaker 1: I think that all makes it very, very reasonable to state explicitly. I have to get up really early. I would really appreciate it if

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Speaker 1: we could turn off the lights and I could get some sleep here and that's okay,

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Speaker 2: restless roommate. We hope that this helps and we hope that next time you get to stay up late and hang out with everybody and

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Speaker 1: most important, your

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Speaker 2: day starts right and stays right. Both David and Martha

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Speaker 1: have learned that good sleeping

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Speaker 2: habits help you get the most

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Speaker 1: out of everyday living.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Mhm.

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Speaker 1: Our next question is about considering vegetarians.

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Speaker 2: Hi lizzie and dan, thank you so much for continuing to provide such great content. I listen to the podcast every night while making dinner and it's been a lot of fun to catch up.

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Speaker 2: Speaking of dinner, I have an etiquette question pertaining to dining with friends who do not eat meat. I live in D. C. Where a lot of restaurants are all about shareable small plates with a mix of veggie options, healthy options, gluten based options and gluten free options. You get the idea.

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Speaker 2: It's a great solution for dining with friends who are vegetarian or vegan but I always feel a bit awkward at the end of the meal when the bill comes presumably when friends are sharing plates and everyone has a little bit of everything, it's easy enough to just split the check in equal ways.

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Speaker 2: However, when you have someone at the table who perhaps only partook in the veggie options,

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Speaker 2: which are generally significantly less expensive, it doesn't seem appropriate to ask them to chip in for an equal share of the check at the end of the night. On the flip side. I hate the idea of going through the check and itemizing what each person had and then leaving the server to sort through everything. What do you think the proper etiquette is here?

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Speaker 2: Should the person with the dietary restrictions asked to be on their own check at the beginning of the meal,

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Speaker 2: should they just chalk it up to the cost of doing business and pay an equal portion of the bill or perhaps they pay their portion, but the rest of the group leaves the tip.

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Speaker 2: I'm curious to hear what you think. Happy holidays and thank you as always for helping us live with a sense of consideration for others. Maureen

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Speaker 1: marine. I love your sense of consideration here. This is such a great question. It's not that someone challenged you and said, oh, I don't want to have to pay this or at least that's not what I'm hearing. You're aware of what's going on and how it impacts different people. I want to

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Speaker 1: play out this scenario in a little more detail. I think there are sometimes where

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Speaker 1: it is just the price of doing business and it's easier for everyone just to split the check. And I want to give you some ways of thinking about that. Where that idea works.

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Speaker 1: It's also true for people that eat meat or omnivores, that sometimes they'll order a couple vegetarian options that they wouldn't necessarily have ordered on their own and don't eat a lot of. So that sometimes the presence of the vegetarian means that the person who eats meat

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Speaker 1: is also chipping in for things that they wouldn't necessarily have ordered or didn't eat as big a share of.

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Speaker 1: I think sometimes when the table is sort of evenly split, when it's not a single person who's gluten free or vegetarian, that sometimes the percentage of the meal that's being ordered in a way that accommodates those diets or

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Speaker 1: is appropriate for those diets

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Speaker 1: is big enough that it's sort of an even split and it comes out in the wash.

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Speaker 1: Having said all that, there are scenarios where there is just one person, so that isn't all coming out evenly in the wash or where the meat options are so much more expensive that

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Speaker 1: it really does start to

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Speaker 1: weigh the scales, where you might want to acknowledge that and make that part of the consideration,

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Speaker 1: the question of the etiquette on how to do that then starts to depend a little bit on the Rolls. People are playing in the meal. If there's someone who is clearly a host who's doing the hosting,

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Speaker 1: they're in charge of the check, they're in charge of the paying and

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Speaker 1: they get to order and make those choices as soon as you're splitting the bill and you're talking about co hosts,

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Speaker 1: that almost by definition means there's going to be some kind of discussion about how that bill is split. And I think that oftentimes that's the moment of opportunity to suggest something like, oh, why don't the

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Speaker 1: people who are ordering me pick up the tip on this or something like that? And I think it's easier to do if you're

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Speaker 1: in that mediator Omnivore camp. And I really want to encourage people to show the same consideration that you are and make that offer if that is the situation. Because I know how appreciated it can be.

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Speaker 2: I think it's really tough. I think it's it's really tough to sit there waiting for someone else to make the offer to you. So I really like giving vegetarians and those who are gluten free, sometimes it's folks who don't drink alcohol, whatever it is, the option of speaking up for themselves. And I say give and let as if we have any kind of authority here. But I like to encourage people that it is okay to speak up and say, you know guys,

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Speaker 2: the dishes that we participated and were really a lot smaller or I really only did have a salad. Do you mind if I pay a little less this evening?

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Speaker 2: Um And I think that it's I think it's okay to feel confident doing that. I would pick and choose which groups and what scenarios I would do it and just like you're saying, if there's someone hosting, you obviously don't have to think about it at all. But I think that when I'm out with folks who I dine with regularly, who know my either financial situation or they know that I deal with the vegetarian thing a lot.

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Speaker 2: Those are folks, I would feel confident that if it wasn't being said or if it did really look like it was, you know,

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Speaker 2: an unfair divide when I really think about what I ate, you know, and then what I'm paying for for the meal as long as it's not someone else's birthday or like a celebratory type event, I would feel comfortable. I think speaking up,

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Speaker 1: I like that distinction about a celebratory event or something where people are

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Speaker 1: picking up that shared tab for the benefit of someone else, a guest of honor or someone.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious what your thoughts are on asking for a separate check that antisocial

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Speaker 2: is that I don't think so at all. I think actually I honestly thought that that was a great solution that we don't often talk about that, but just from the get go saying, you know what I've got dietary restrictions. Do you guys mind if I have a separate check? You know, it just makes it easier in the long run.

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Speaker 2: I think that's really good. I think where that can get awkward is when your meal gets placed down a part of the family style meal and then all of a sudden like your veggie dish or your gluten free dishes consumed by the rest of the table and you really only got like an eighth of it like that. I think I would be careful to not let that scenario happened.

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Speaker 1: But practical concerns as always rule and the way the table is set up, if the type of cuisine that you're eating really dictates

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Speaker 1: that everything is going to be shared, the portions come out and they're not

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Speaker 1: single sized portions or

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Speaker 1: as in a tapas where they're actually, they are good enough and you really need lots and lots of them. It might not be as practical to do something like that.

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Speaker 2: So pick your time in place for sure.

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Speaker 2: As somebody who is in the I eat anything camp, I would encourage you to look out for your friends when you are at the table. Make sure that when you have to order things for dietary restrictions

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Speaker 2: and you are sharing a meal that people really get enough check in with your friends because it's considerate. And if you are someone with a dietary restriction, it's okay to speak up and it's okay to ask for a separate check from the get go

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Speaker 1: marine. Thank you for this question. I hope that your example of consideration serves as an inspiration for others. We're going to find out many things about sharing with others. Do you know what we mean by sharing?

00:21:52

Speaker 1: Do you know what kinds of things we share?

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Speaker 1: Do you know why we share

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Speaker 1: and how we share?

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Speaker 2: Our next question is titled, Thank you for the Thank you for the Thank you for the Thank

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Speaker 1: you.

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Speaker 1: Good morning. Over the summer. A friend of mine asked if I could help her with her son's upcoming october wedding, decorating the rehearsal venue, directing the wedding and making sure all things for the wedding went off well.

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Speaker 1: As a friend, I of course told her I would be happy to help

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Speaker 1: Over the next couple of months leading to the wedding. We met a time or two. We arranged for the table decorations for the rehearsal gathering, decorated the rehearsal venue, decorated the reception. In other words, much time and energy was put in pre wedding and wedding day.

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Speaker 1: The wedding was a success and all went well. I received a hand delivered thank you card with cash included in mid december during our annual christmas get together

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Speaker 1: as a friend. I was doing a favor, so no money was expected or desired.

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Speaker 1: My question is this, do I send a thank you for the thank you note and monetary gift.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for any assistance you may provide sincerely Janet.

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Speaker 2: I think that because this thank you that she's giving you came with extra and unexpected money that you probably do want to write some kind of a thank you for it. It sounds like you were able to do this in person, but I don't know if the envelope was opened and the money discovered in person or not.

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Speaker 1: I was sort of looking at a similar etiquette point. Did you have a chance to thank them for the unexpected cash? I think if you did it in person,

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Speaker 1: a written thank you for a thank you and gift becomes less

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Speaker 1: necessary. From a medical perspective, we often say you don't thank you for thank you. But big exception if there's a gift that's part of that thank you that you haven't thank someone for in person, usually a mailed situation that then it is appropriate to reach out and thanks for the gift because it lets someone know it was received.

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Speaker 1: I also just can't leave this question without saying Janet, I'm applauding you for all of the work that you did. It sounds like a lot went into this wedding. I know how much is involved in wedding planning and how much it means to people and to have

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Speaker 2: people step up and help out like that For sure.

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Speaker 1: It's really incredible that you did this and I'm glad that the people that you did it for, We're so appreciative.

00:24:10

Speaker 1: Yes, everywhere you go, people talk about thoughtfulness. Well, just what does thoughtfulness mean? How does it get into your everyday life

00:24:20

Speaker 1: to discover some know, how about thoughtfulness? Let's follow jane proctor into her home.

00:24:26

Speaker 1: For the doctors are one family who have learned the art of thoughtfulness.

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Speaker 2: Our next question is titled, should I be offended?

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Speaker 2: Hi lizzie and dan. Happy holidays, loving the podcast as always and love that you're sustaining members now use Patreon. I joined. Yea

00:24:46

Speaker 2: yeah, indeed

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Speaker 2: quick. I hope question I live with my boyfriend of almost three years. I moved in with him over two years ago. Close friends and family know that

00:24:57

Speaker 2: I have gotten holiday cards addressed to just me. His name isn't on them granted the friends and family who didn't include his name, haven't yet met him but they know about him and no, I live with him one good friend and her husband do know him though,

00:25:14

Speaker 2: should I be offended that he was not included or are they not required to include his name Because

00:25:20

Speaker 2: they only know me and the card is to me and I am unmarried.

00:25:24

Speaker 2: Side note one family member that addressed the card to only me sent, I am updating my address, book email before the holidays. Should I have updated it to include my boyfriend's name as well. Maybe I was in the wrong with that one.

00:25:40

Speaker 2: You both are so amazing. Thank you anonymous

00:25:43

Speaker 1: and thank you anonymous for calling us both. Amazing.

00:25:47

Speaker 2: Yes, thank you. I appreciate that

00:25:48

Speaker 1: I'm glowing here just a little bit. I want to start off by saying, don't be offended,

00:25:55

Speaker 2: don't be offended.

00:25:56

Speaker 1: People don't always know how to handle this. And we have said it Emily post for a long, long time. That long term significant others partners,

00:26:05

Speaker 1: particularly people that live together can be acknowledged the same way a married couple is acknowledged.

00:26:12

Speaker 1: It is not something that people universally do even though it's entirely appropriate and I wouldn't take it as a personal slight or comment on the seriousness of your relationship.

00:26:23

Speaker 2: I agree. I think that more often than not this is just people being convenient. This is people being uncertain. They might have forgotten what his name was like. I,

00:26:32

Speaker 2: there are definitely some people in my world who it's like, I always have to double check on the boyfriend or the girlfriend's name, you know what I mean? But I honestly, I think that this is just oversight. I think that when you go to update things feel free to if you want to include, but I think that's also a conversation you and your boyfriend need to have

00:26:52

Speaker 2: and I think that living together and having lived together for two years, you're pretty committed to each other. It sounds like, but

00:26:57

Speaker 2: it's worth asking. You know like hey, when people ask me for this kind of stuff, do you want me to start including your name so that they're looking at us as a couple who lives together

00:27:06

Speaker 1: and that request before the holidays for an updating of your address is the perfect time to say something like, Oh yes. And so and so when I have been living together,

00:27:19

Speaker 1: you don't have to say that. You

00:27:20

Speaker 2: don't have to say that you just get in there and send it back the way you would like to address. You see the real time backing out of that. Like no, we're going to backtrack. That's not that no unnecessary.

00:27:32

Speaker 2: Exactly. You just have to update with the new name, you know, And I think that that's fine.

00:27:38

Speaker 2: The final thought before we close this one is that if someone is standing on old fashioned principles or if they are not supportive of you living with this person, then I think let that be their thing and just say, okay, I'm not going to try and beat this down, even though I do find this disrespectful,

00:27:57

Speaker 2: um you can it is an option for you to just say, I'm going to let grandma get it wrong. You know, I'm just, I'm just going to know that that's going to happen and that is one option, but it doesn't make the relationship I think any less valid or the fact that you should be respected any less important. It's just sometimes you pick and choose whether or not that's something you have to stand for or not.

00:28:18

Speaker 1: Big picture. The good news is

00:28:21

Speaker 1: you get to decide how you want to be addressed and it's okay to talk to friends and family about including your partner. If that

00:28:28

Speaker 1: it matters to you

00:28:29

Speaker 1: anonymous, we hope this helps and that in the future cards come addressed to you and your partner.

00:28:36

Speaker 2: Our final question today is titled Waiting for baby.

00:28:39

Speaker 1: Happy december, lizzie dan and Producers thank you for hosting this wonderful show. I absolutely adore the content and your friendly presenting style. I regret that I've missed a handful of episodes, but I'm happy that I at least get to binge and catch up during a long car ride this week.

00:28:56

Speaker 1: Big winky emoji, all my best to you and yours this holiday season. I have a question regarding a bundle of joy. I am relatively good friends with a married couple who had a baby last month.

00:29:07

Speaker 1: I share a large friend group with this couple and we were all eagerly anticipating the new arrival. I offered to help with anything that the couple needed and was abreast of all necessary information until a few days before the predicted due date.

00:29:21

Speaker 1: Once the baby came, the couple immediately told a few of our friends the news and texted photos to their phones,

00:29:28

Speaker 1: but they only told the rest of us three or four days later in a group chat,

00:29:32

Speaker 1: it's now been one month since the birth. At least a few of the people in our friend group have been over to see the baby and I have not been invited granted. I do not know whether the friends initiated the visit or if the couple requested on their own volition, but the entire situation makes me feel disappointed and left out.

00:29:50

Speaker 1: Since I previously expressed my excitement to see the child soon and offered to help with anything the new parents need. I have taken the stance that when my presence is desired, they will ask for it.

00:30:01

Speaker 1: I feel they have a right to invite over whomever they like. And the last thing I want to do is impose,

00:30:07

Speaker 1: but I want to take an active role in these early stages of the baby's life and a beginning to wonder whether I should get the wheels turning.

00:30:14

Speaker 1: Should I directly asked to go over to their house or simply allow them to invite me when they're ready? Thank you in advance for your answer. Christina.

00:30:23

Speaker 2: Christina, This is such a tough, I mean this is such a tough question only because I feel for you being in such a willing to participate space

00:30:32

Speaker 2: and yet I really think that this is so not about you, this is about the new parents, parents to a newborn having to deal with sleep deprivation and literally not being able to think straight, let alone think I should invite this person over or I remember they said they could help with laundry,

00:30:53

Speaker 2: you know what I mean? And it's like they literally, I have met so few parents who actually take you up on the offers that you suggest on ahead of time unless you're literally like someone's sister or brother or cousin like you know, or next door neighbor.

00:31:07

Speaker 1: And even then

00:31:08

Speaker 2: even oftentimes

00:31:09

Speaker 1: difficult to stay

00:31:11

Speaker 1: figure it out and organize those visits in a way that

00:31:14

Speaker 1: is meaningful or significant

00:31:16

Speaker 2: for you. Feel good. Exactly. And I think a lot of parents to when they often, I think when they get the chance for any kind of a break, they welcome it, but they also welcome the chance to not have to entertain, not have to feel like they have to put anything on. And

00:31:30

Speaker 2: even if you don't expect anything, even if you expect to go over and just lend a helping hand sometimes

00:31:36

Speaker 2: trying to coordinate that is like too much. And so people just lean on the people there already in communication with like their mom or you know, a particular friend or something like that, so I wouldn't take this too personally, but the other thing that I'm hearing about in here is that you stated a number of things from your perspective, you said

00:31:57

Speaker 2: I have taken the stance that when my presence is desired they will ask for it.

00:32:02

Speaker 2: Did you talk with them about that? Because if you haven't communicated that you're going to wait for them to reach out until they're ready to start having visitors and things like that or if you have the next line was you know, I feel they have a right to invite over whomever they'd like, I don't want to impose, you know, but we don't know if that's what they need right now, you know you guys needed people to set up a meal train for you and we set up that meal train. You know, my mom just would come over and drop off

00:32:30

Speaker 2: meals for my sister and

00:32:32

Speaker 2: I can feel you not wanting to impose, I can feel you wanting to give them space and respect.

00:32:37

Speaker 2: But if you haven't told them that that's what you're doing, you know what I mean? They don't, they don't know that that's what you're up to. They might think, oh, you know, she doesn't want to come over and see a crying baby and us all stressed out

00:32:48

Speaker 1: or she's just happy and content be there and we'll see each other when we see

00:32:53

Speaker 2: each other. Exactly.

00:32:54

Speaker 1: Your desire to meet this newborn to participate in this bundle of joy moment

00:33:01

Speaker 1: is something that may or may not be on these parents radar. That's a really

00:33:05

Speaker 2: good way to put it

00:33:06

Speaker 1: down. I really

00:33:07

Speaker 2: like the way you phrased that.

00:33:08

Speaker 1: I'm thinking about some middle ground somewhere between directly asking if you can come over and dropping off the radar completely until they reach out. Lizzie post mentioned the meal train that people organized for Poochigian me just recently, a few months ago when Aria was born and it was awesome. It ended up providing a structure for a lot of very brief visits with that sort of extended friends social circle.

00:33:39

Speaker 1: And

00:33:40

Speaker 1: it's also an ask that you can make, that doesn't involve inviting yourself over. You can reach out and say, I'd love to set up a meal train for you. Is that something that you'd be comfortable with and now you've got their permission to do something for them. That's going to be really helpful.

00:33:57

Speaker 1: That's going to provide a structure for some of these visits to maybe happen in the future. And it's a point of engagement for you. that also opens the door for them to say, hey, why don't you come over and see the baby without you having to ask to do it

00:34:12

Speaker 1: offers for help

00:34:14

Speaker 1: are often very general. Oh, I'd be happy to help out with anything. And one thing that we recommended Emily post is that you make your offers specific so that people have a thing to respond to that they don't end up having to come up with that thing. That would be helpful.

00:34:29

Speaker 1: I'd like to bring you over a casserole. I'd like to offer to come help clean floors, believe it or not, that's an

00:34:34

Speaker 2: offer that will

00:34:35

Speaker 1: sometimes make the

00:34:37

Speaker 2: general hungry keeping. Is those things make a difference for sure. And offering something specific really gets you there.

00:34:45

Speaker 2: Um, I also think that be reasonable with when you do make an outreach, whether you call or whether you text that people might take longer to get back to you that they might even forget. I remember when my sister had a newborn that there would be times where I would make an outreach to her and frankly it would just get lost

00:35:04

Speaker 2: in all the other messages and things that were happening and the baby's needs at the time. And

00:35:10

Speaker 2: sometimes messages would go unanswered. Sometimes phone calls would go on returned. Don't think that it's a it's on you somehow. It's just keep trying, keep trying to be there as a friend. These early months are usually tough on friendships. I think

00:35:24

Speaker 2: Christina. We really hope that this helps and we hope that you get to see the baby soon,

00:35:29

Speaker 1: Good manners, social

00:35:31

Speaker 2: graces etiquette,

00:35:32

Speaker 1: call it what you will

00:35:33

Speaker 2: all are based on consideration for others. Being kind of the other fellow in the little things of life as well as the big

00:35:40

Speaker 1: thing.

00:35:48

Speaker 2: Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates, comments or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. Or you can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 K. I. N. D. That's 8028585463

00:36:03

Speaker 2: on instagram. We are at Emily Post institute and on facebook we are awesome etiquette

00:36:09

Speaker 2: on twitter. We are at Emily Post inst just use the hashtag awesome etiquette in your post so that we know you want your question on the show.

00:36:20

Speaker 2: Mhm.

00:36:24

Speaker 1: Mhm.

00:36:25

Speaker 1: Uh huh.

00:36:26

Speaker 1: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer and the topics we cover. And today we hear from Monica about shoes off households.

00:36:35

Speaker 2: Hello, I just listened to your podcast for the first time and absolutely love your approach to handling life's complexities in a kind and polite manner.

00:36:44

Speaker 2: Welcome to the podcast Monica.

00:36:46

Speaker 2: My plan is to join the Patreon and start listening to all the episodes. But here's a quick comment. As I just finished listening,

00:36:54

Speaker 2: I'm indian american and it is definitely in our culture to take shoes off in the house. I loved your comments, especially the idea about having a nice place to sit in the foyer or entryway

00:37:07

Speaker 2: to make it easier for guests to just sit and take their shoes off without dropping their flowers, hostess gifts, etcetera, genius. A couple suggestions along those lines. One make sure there is a well lit area where guests actually leave their shoes. It can be frustrating late at night at the end of a dinner party

00:37:25

Speaker 2: to have to sort through various shoes to find your tired child's shoes and even worse to have someone

00:37:31

Speaker 2: go home with your shoes. This has happened to me a few months ago, someone had the same shoes in a different color and left wearing my pumps. The host has felt terrible and the other guests were very far away by the time they figured it all out, etcetera. Oh goodness, that's that stuff.

00:37:46

Speaker 2: So now for my own parties, I even leave sharpies and plastic bags so guests can throw all the family shoes into a labeled bag. Maybe it's a bit over the top, but it works.

00:37:58

Speaker 2: Two slippers are good, but shoe covers also work for tradespeople who obviously don't want to take their shoes off.

00:38:05

Speaker 2: They're a bit pricey, but you can find them at Chef stores, hardware stores, etcetera. Thanks again, Monica. I love this feedback.

00:38:13

Speaker 1: I due to the idea of the shoe covers

00:38:16

Speaker 1: for people that aren't going to be taking shoes on and off that are really, it would be an inconvenience and you want still to maintain that

00:38:24

Speaker 1: clean,

00:38:25

Speaker 2: pristine. I know that one, you know me. I'm like, yeah, good luck with that. If you've got people coming in to do work, just clean up after them. But, but I think it is an option. But the thing that I'm really impressed about here is the idea of having like the bags or bins or something that people as a family. Because imagine you

00:38:43

Speaker 2: with your, you know, eight shoes of people come, I guess you don't really take the baby shoes off. So six shoes coming into a household,

00:38:50

Speaker 2: put them all in a bag, label them with your sharpie marker and boom, you're done. You're good to go. You're not going to mistake them for someone else's. I think that's actually pretty genius.

00:39:00

Speaker 1: Far from over the top. Kind of dorky kind of cool.

00:39:04

Speaker 2: Thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please keep them coming. You can send your comment or update two awesome dedicated Emily post dot com or leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 K I N. D. That's 8028585463

00:39:19

Speaker 1: It's time for our post script segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette and today we're going to talk about dreams for the new year.

00:39:28

Speaker 2: It has been a little poetic when I was writing. I'm just getting dreams for the new year.

00:39:34

Speaker 2: I feel like this would be a good time to talk about what we're going to be working on in the new year. We've got a bunch of important projects I think that are coming up.

00:39:41

Speaker 2: I also think it's just a good time to talk about etiquette for 2020. I mean, it's what we're going to be talking about this in the Today Show segment, which I'm really excited about, but it's also

00:39:51

Speaker 2: the perfect time we're looking ahead. You and I are figuring things out for the company. Like why not? Why not just go for it?

00:39:58

Speaker 1: I'm leaning forward in my chair because I'm excited about this post script. I think the best etiquette questions are about the future.

00:40:04

Speaker 1: I think that sort of ruling or judgment on what has come before, there's some value to it. There's it's a worthwhile exercise to

00:40:12

Speaker 2: think about and engage.

00:40:14

Speaker 1: But I'm always the most interested in questions that are anticipating things that are coming. I'm going to be faced with this solution. I'm trying to figure out what to do,

00:40:23

Speaker 1: or more broadly, I'm faced with this

00:40:25

Speaker 1: situation or this problem, what am I gonna do? How am I going to handle it? To me, those are the really good questions. And more broadly, what's coming up? What are the trends in etiquette is something that has fascinated me since I started this work 10 years ago?

00:40:39

Speaker 2: How can you not? Right, It's for sure. For me it's the projects um

00:40:46

Speaker 2: like as well as many of you know, we are embarking on working on the next edition of Emily Post's etiquette and that has brought up so much just in the very starting of that project and in thinking about what that book will be, and then starting to propose what the actual content and layout of that book and what structure will be.

00:41:04

Speaker 2: It flexed my brain in so many ways, in terms of what is etiquette, what do people want

00:41:10

Speaker 2: to talk about when it comes to etiquette? What do they think etiquette is? And we talk about that kind of stuff a lot around here. We especially talk about it in our interviews, um when we do media interviews, but I feel like it's really different. Like this is, I feel like a really good time to take the temperature and we have this wonderful audience,

00:41:30

Speaker 2: you, the awesome etiquette audience who

00:41:32

Speaker 2: we have listened to and interacted with for the past five years. That's a long relationship to be looking back on. I was going through the other day, the inbox for awesome etiquette and a lot of the questions that we've used on the show or then all categorized into, you know, what type of question were they, what are they about?

00:41:52

Speaker 2: And just seeing how,

00:41:54

Speaker 2: how much for five years people aren't sick of talking about. Thank you notes or certain dining etiquette questions or questions about co hosting or showers or gifts that these are things that they still concern us, they still matter to us.

00:42:14

Speaker 2: And that when you all think of etiquette, this is where your brain goes to, it doesn't immediately go to how do I handle that difficult political conversation at the table.

00:42:23

Speaker 2: A lot of the times it goes to this, this immediate thing that I often probably face two or three times a year, but I just get nervous and I want to make sure I get it right. And I kind of like that for as broad as etiquette can be for, for dan and for myself when we're out teaching it and talking about it regularly,

00:42:43

Speaker 2: that there's kind of this home base. The etiquette really is about treating people well, interacting with the people in our social circles and our families and our business as well. And how can we do that? And what are the points that really makes sense for us to do that in?

00:42:58

Speaker 1: So keeping in mind that the playing field for etiquette is human interaction.

00:43:03

Speaker 1: Is that interpersonal space that we share in very immediate and meaningful ways?

00:43:09

Speaker 1: What are you seeing? What are some of the content areas that you're thinking about as the new frontier for etiquette in 2020 and

00:43:18

Speaker 1: maybe less about the way traditions have changed and evolved, but more about what are we looking at that we anticipate is going to be

00:43:26

Speaker 1: the new playing field for these interpersonal exchanges.

00:43:30

Speaker 2: I don't know about the playing field, but the topics that I think we're going to hit on our, I mean definitely the three that you and I have talked about that we know are coming, that we're excited to be working on.

00:43:41

Speaker 2: Well maybe not the third one, but the first two for sure. Gender and courtesy around gender and gender identity and how people want to be titled and what pronouns they prefer to use to identify by. And um just those types of things are definitely going to impact our um advice

00:44:00

Speaker 2: on those categories just simply because we are going to make sure that they are included.

00:44:05

Speaker 2: Um and I think that that's really important and and getting to see that not just in a section that describes the how to but getting to see it play out in examples throughout the book. I think that's something we've always been really concerned with is making sure that our examples aren't just names like Bill and sally.

00:44:21

Speaker 2: That's something that we've worked hard on in our books up to date. And I think you're going to see that continue as we also embrace things like mix and they and we see that as important moving forward.

00:44:32

Speaker 1: One of my favorite discussions to have with seminar audiences, particularly audiences that have requested discussions around

00:44:41

Speaker 1: non binary gender identification. How

00:44:44

Speaker 1: trans people are addressed

00:44:46

Speaker 1: is a discussion about chivalry and how the very concept of chivalry began and how it changed and evolved over hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years and how it will continue to change and evolve.

00:44:58

Speaker 1: I am absolutely fascinated about this topic and where it's going.

00:45:03

Speaker 1: Another area that we know is coming is the question of privacy and tech. Just this fall, we started to get interview requests, people wondering how to handle

00:45:14

Speaker 1: Alexa in the home or other microphone, voice activated technologies that are potentially listening to our private lives and private conversations.

00:45:26

Speaker 2: I was house sitting and the Alexa unit started. I didn't know that it was there and that it was on and it started talking to me. It was like I said there's a new person, did something strange and it asked me who I was and I was like no I'm unplugging you

00:45:38

Speaker 2: and like that was it was just an interesting moment of like how do I'm house sitting, Can I unplug someone's Alexa while I'm house sitting? You know what I mean?

00:45:48

Speaker 1: Am I alone

00:45:49

Speaker 2: here? Am I alone

00:45:50

Speaker 1: here? There's both the privacy questions and the courtesy questions. When you tell

00:45:56

Speaker 1: your

00:45:57

Speaker 1: ai digital assistant to do something, is it important to say thank you when they do it or please when you make the request and if you don't, does it start to reprogram your own brain doesn't have psychological

00:46:12

Speaker 1: heart, Does it cause psychological harm or are there benefits to being polite with a machine that isn't necessarily appreciating it the way another human is, these are

00:46:22

Speaker 1: fascinating questions. I think they're going to come up more and more and more

00:46:25

Speaker 2: that in the video camera and any kind of home surveillance stuff, you know, do you have to tell guests like that, those types of things? I think you're right, it will be interesting to see where they settle.

00:46:36

Speaker 2: I think the one that no one is looking forward to, but you are going to hear us discuss and you've heard us discussing it more and more in the media lately

00:46:43

Speaker 2: has been the issue of political etiquette and having etiquette around how we talk politics. We've always tried to

00:46:51

Speaker 2: be really considerate of the fact that our audience ship has a lot of different viewpoints in it and we're going to continue to maintain that consideration, but we also know that there are a lot of conversations that people are struggling to have, that people want to have but are afraid to have. And there are conversations that people want to know how to exit

00:47:09

Speaker 2: and the more that we can not be afraid and talk about these things and say there are solutions and the better practice we can get at

00:47:17

Speaker 2: actually using these solutions. I think the more you're going to feel that tension in our national discourse sort of dissipate a little bit and ease a little bit.

00:47:27

Speaker 1: So that's a little bit of what we see coming as the ball drops this New Year's. Definitely keep half a brain or a portion of your brain thinking, awesome etiquette lee.

00:47:37

Speaker 1: We'd be so curious what your thoughts are about 2020.

00:47:46

Speaker 1: Mhm.

00:47:55

Speaker 2: We like to end our show on a high note. So, we turn to you only today, we're turning to us to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world. It can come in so many forms. And for us, one of the biggest forms it comes in is through this show

00:48:11

Speaker 2: and through your participation in your support of awesome etiquette, we really want to salute you, our listeners,

00:48:18

Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for everything that you do to make this show happen. We say it as often as we feel comfortable bringing it up, but there would be no show without you, and we so appreciate everything that you do to keep the show alive.

00:48:33

Speaker 2: Your questions, your enthusiasm and encouragement that

00:48:37

Speaker 2: listening to a show about etiquette actually makes you think and behave differently, or it makes you laugh or it makes you scream and say, no, no, no, you're getting this wrong, you're forgetting this perspective,

00:48:51

Speaker 2: whatever it is that it does, we are so grateful that you share it with us and that you take the time to think about and consider other people in the world and your impact on them as well as their impact on you.

00:49:06

Speaker 2: You guys hear us talk about it all the time. We really do believe that etiquette can make a difference, that it can help bring the world together,

00:49:14

Speaker 2: that

00:49:15

Speaker 1: we

00:49:16

Speaker 2: find importance in taking care with our interactions with one another and you, our wonderful and amazing and dedicated and ever growing audience. You are living breathing proof of that. And we want to thank you for being here with us,

00:49:34

Speaker 2: for caring about the people around you and for caring about yourselves as well.

00:49:40

Speaker 1: So, here's a salute to 2019 and we offer that with great anticipation for an amazing 2020.

00:49:49

Speaker 2: Thank you

00:49:53

Speaker 1: for listening

00:49:54

Speaker 1: and thank you to everyone who sent us something. Please connect with us and share the show with friends, family and co workers. However you're able, you can send us your next question, comment or salute to awesome etiquette at Emily Post

00:50:06

Speaker 2: com by phone. You can leave us a message or text at 802858 K. I. N. D. That's 8028585463 on

00:50:16

Speaker 1: twitter. We are at Emily Post

00:50:18

Speaker 2: Institute on facebook were awesome etiquette and the Emily Post Institute

00:50:22

Speaker 1: on instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute.

00:50:25

Speaker 2: Please consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette or visiting awesome etiquette on Emily Post dot com.

00:50:35

Speaker 1: You can also subscribe to the ads version of our show on Itunes or your favorite podcast app and please consider leaving us a review. It helps with our show ranking, which helps other people find awesome etiquette.

00:50:46

Speaker 2: Our show is edited by Chris Albertine, an assistant produced by Brigitte Dowd.

00:50:51

Speaker 1: Thanks Kris and Brigitte.

00:51:07

Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:51:11

Speaker 1: Mm hmm.