Episode 279 - Loud in the Library

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Speaker 1: maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social, could you see that's old fashioned,

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Speaker 1: Watch how busy post and they're supposed to act as host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person, real friendliness.

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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to awesome etiquette where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. On today's show, we take your questions on a post holiday, fumble, having difficult housemates, family members who comment on other people's bodies

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Speaker 1: and being loud in the library for awesome etiquette, sustaining members. Our question of the week is about travel tipping dilemmas

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Speaker 1: plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a postscript segment on introductions and titles from Emily Post etiquette, 1922 All that's coming up,

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Speaker 1: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of Vermont Public Radio and is proud to be produced in Burlington, Vermont by the Emily Post Institute. I'm lizzie Post and I'm dan Post sending hi hey, before we get started, since we're saying I have to ask our audience a question, Who saw lizzie on the Today show?

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Speaker 1: I did, I'm so glad you watched, I was impressed, thank you. You did a phenomenal job, thank you. And I want to ask our audience how they thought you did, but I can't because we can't hear right now, but I still want people to let us know how they thought you did. Thank you. I appreciate I had a lot of fun doing it. It had been a little while since we've been on the Today show,

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Speaker 1: but one of the anchors who was interviewing for the segment, we just did, I was one of his very first interviews when he was guest hosting years and years ago and we talked about pool etiquette. So you came up together and so it was just really fun. Yeah, I was just really fun to get interviewed by him again after. He'd really been a

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Speaker 1: been a long time anchor there now, so it was really fun.

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Speaker 1: Tell me more, Tell me about Rockefeller Center at the holiday, it was all beautiful. Everything was really crowded, but people were getting ready for New Year's, which was really fun. Um I flew back home to Vermont, so I spent new years back in Vermont, but it was

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Speaker 1: very festive still. You know, everything was still very festive in new york, festive is really special, so that was great. But

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Speaker 1: the show was a lot of fun. I was very grateful for the opportunity. Really glad to see some shout outs from the awesome etiquette crowd on social media, Thank you for that. I really appreciate it. Well, I was thinking about you as I was watching it and I was also remembering sort of the arc of history in terms of your appearances on the Today Show. And I was remembering

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Speaker 1: way back when when you and I were both getting started

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Speaker 1: in these jobs and we used to prepare for national media with sort of bulleted talking points. We had our talking points for each topic that we were going to be covering. And it was we had those for this. I'm sure you did.

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Speaker 1: It felt like a less structured affair as I was watching you talk with the people on the Today Show. I was thinking to myself, this sounds like a podcast conversation and I was delighting in that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it really did. I think also having it be set, you know, we were all sitting around their desk and so I think having it be set like that as opposed to, you know, like interview style and like, you know, couches and chairs or something like that. There had that kind of dinner table feel to it where that conversation was there and happening. And

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Speaker 1: um I think in many ways you and I try to cultivate that here on the show. So it was nice. It felt like very familiar territory to be in.

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Speaker 1: Well, it came across to me sitting in my living with my calling to Come see, Come See was on the Today Show. It was a lot of fun. Congratulations. Thank you. I really appreciate it very much. So like getting your call afterwards.

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Speaker 1: I was talking to my mother about it and of course it takes her back. She's remembering the time she got to do this and

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Speaker 1: it is fun to go down particularly over the holidays because there is this whole festive nature to the whole scene where it's filmed and you get to be a part of that in a way that's a real treat. So I'm glad you enjoyed it. I'm glad it went well. Thank you so much and I am glad to be back and

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Speaker 1: kicking off a New Year with the podcast as always, we're excited to be here. We are not, not stopping this train anytime soon.

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Speaker 1: Um automatic, it will be here for years to come, but it's a, it's exciting. Just even before we started recording today, we were talking about things that were going to change things that we're going to do. Um and it's fun to have this kind of living, breathing conversation about etiquette that we have with our audience and with each other and

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Speaker 1: it's one of things I'm really grateful for and really looking forward to. So let's get to some questions. Let's do it,

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Speaker 1: awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions on how to behave. If you have a question for us, you can email it to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463

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Speaker 1: on twitter. We are at Emily Post inst on instagram, we are at Emily Post Institute

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Speaker 1: and on facebook we are awesome etiquette. Just remember to use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media posts so that we know you want your question on the show and sustaining members put sustaining members somewhere in your message, will answer your questions on the sustaining members site now at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette where you can access and adds free version of the show and all your bonus questions.

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Speaker 1: Our first question of the day is titled post holiday fumble

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Speaker 1: dear lizzie and dan, I'm hoping you can help me through this post holiday dilemma. Just over six months ago, my brother and his wife separated. It took my family by surprise and though we were hopeful that they would reconnect before the end of the year,

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Speaker 1: that was not the case. My brother and I are not very close and though I like his wife very much, they've been together over 10 years. We are also not very close. When my brother arrived home for the holidays at my parents, he came with thoughtful handmade gifts that his wife had made for my parents and I,

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Speaker 1: my mom and I were so touched but instantly felt so guilty as we had not gotten a gift for her.

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Speaker 1: My mother had gotten her address from my brother and sent her holiday card, but that was all. Should we have sent gifts to we do know that my brother and she are in contact. So it would have been possible should we send something now?

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Speaker 1: I did not have her address but sent her a text on christmas thanking her for the gift. I feel like a terrible sister in law.

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Speaker 1: I know my mother is feeling similarly as we are trying to navigate our relationship with our sister slash daughter in law, please help post holiday bumble. Oh, I know this one breaks your heart well and

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Speaker 1: it's not an uncommon post holiday question and a great one for this show. I would say that our listeners in good company, a lot of a lot of people have trouble navigating this. And I want to start with a really simple etiquette answer. Just in regards to the gift exchange, we've said it on this show before, and I'm sure we will say it again,

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Speaker 1: just because someone gives you a gift doesn't mean that you have to have a gift ready for them in that moment. And this thing happens and people feel badly about in all kinds of situations, strip away all the other family dynamics and from an etiquette perspective, what you're responsible for in those moments is to thank the person for the gift,

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Speaker 1: thank them, genuinely, warmly, sincerely appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: Don't let your own guilt about not having a gift to give back or to exchange

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Speaker 1: trip you up and prevent you from meeting your etiquette minimums of receiving that gift. Well, so

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Speaker 1: there has been no real damage here from the core etiquette question that this question is built on. But

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Speaker 1: then there's the family dynamics questions, and I think that's where you get this feeling of guilt. And like there was a misstep from is because this was clearly someone who, although we weren't close to her and I'm hearing that at the same time, she was family for over 10 years and you know, it's sad and it's hard and I can understand where that feeling of, oh gosh, I think I did mis step here

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Speaker 1: um is coming from, I think that, you know, using the thank you as a way to reach out is really important. I think the text message you sent was good, but I would also go the extra step of writing that handwritten thank you note and sending it along, You're still, I mean, you know, we're not even through january, you're still totally and like,

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Speaker 1: ideal time to write that note, get it out the door,

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Speaker 1: that actually would help. And the other thing that you can do is you can always send her a gift and you can write in the note. Your handmade thoughtful gift was so wonderful and it just, I didn't know what to do in the sir given the circumstances and your generosity really inspired me to not shy away from being generous. And so

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Speaker 1: I think that that might be the way that you could turn it around and if I receive something like that, I do not think that my first thought is going to be like, oh, so you wouldn't have gotten me anything if I didn't do it like, you know, or smugly like yeah, I'm the nice one out of the two of us. Like I don't think those are going to be the first thoughts. I think she's going to think, wow,

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Speaker 1: I'm really glad, like, you know, I'm glad that my reaching out, made my sister in law want to reach out to.

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Speaker 1: So if you're feeling genuinely inspired,

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Speaker 1: go for it. The other thing that sometimes makes me feel better in these moments is I make a plan for myself. Sometimes there is no immediate reparative action you can take sometimes

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Speaker 1: and offenses

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Speaker 1: frankly small enough to

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Speaker 1: revisit, it starts to make it worse or aggravate it sometimes, moving on is the thing that you're responsible for holding that

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Speaker 1: bad feeling yourself and not

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Speaker 1: passing it back

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Speaker 1: is their birthday in february, Go with getting a gift in february, just move forward. But then be inclusive, right? That's what I make my plan. And

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Speaker 1: it can feel like excuse making if you don't follow through. But as long as you follow through on that plan, I think thinking about that future action, how you're going to correct this, how you're going to be better going forward

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Speaker 1: can be so helpful and families don't end with divorce. People can stay part of your family and if this is a relationship that you want to continue our honor, however,

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Speaker 1: feels right to you. That is a reasonable and appropriate thing to think about and to take action on

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Speaker 1: post holiday fumble. We

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Speaker 1: dan wants me to say post holiday fumble. We hope this helps you make the catch. Did I get it right? You did.

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Speaker 1: Our next question is titled having housemates is hard.

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Speaker 1: It sure is

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Speaker 1: dear dan and lizzie for about four months now I've been living in a shared house with 13 other college students. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. 13. This now totally make sense. Whatever comes next, it's going to make sense. I hope it's a big house

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Speaker 1: during these four months. As expected, we had small problems like a housemate leaving the dirty dishes in the sink and clogging the sink or someone leaving the stove dirty after using it and when anything happens it gets talked about in the house group chat, usually by the same two housemates.

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Speaker 1: I try not to complain and try my best not to upset anyone. But recently I've come to feel unwelcome in my own home. As one of those too chatty housemates is constantly sending messages to the group, chat about every small thing. If someone rushed to class in the morning and he wakes up to a mug and a plate in the sink, he sends pictures and complaints about it.

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Speaker 1: If someone is talking in their own room at night, he complains about that. If someone invites friends over with notice and he can hear them whisper, he complains about that. He'll also complain if he hears noises like the washing machine or the water running from the sink coming from the kitchen at night, even though his bedroom is the furthest from the kitchen,

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Speaker 1: I always try not to upset anyone and to make things right. But I started to feel unwelcome and as if I have to figure out all the ways to change my routine and lifestyle so he doesn't get annoyed to sum up, I don't feel at home. I've talked to my friends who live with me and they feel the same way. One of them even thought about sending an email to the landlord about it as she believes many of us will be moving out

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Speaker 1: for not feeling welcome at their own home.

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Speaker 1: I want to find a way to not go that route as I believe it might be too radical. I've tried talking that is in the group chat saying we should be more flexible and that it isn't worthy to take pictures and make others feel unwelcome every single time something happens as we all know our responsibilities. But all he answered was it is worthy.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I did wrong in sending it in the group chat as I tried not to make it personal to him, but I don't know what else to do, hoping you can help me figure out a way for us all to feel welcome and comfortable in our home with love live live. Oh, that's tough. This also sounds to me like I can't quite tell if it's

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Speaker 1: like I'm we are in a college town. So I'm often then picturing college living situations when you hear 13 people in one house. But this actually sounds more like it's people who rent a room in a house, but the whole house is shared because talking to the landlord about who's leaving.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like things actually go through a landlord as opposed to a large group of friends who decided to live together

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Speaker 1: at the same time. It sounds like some of these folks are friendly. So I'm not entirely sure the dynamic of how everyone ended up at this house and who chooses the rules for the house. And I think that might be a really good place to start with. This is what is this living situation that we're in.

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Speaker 1: And if the group chat is the way that you're set up to communicate, then maybe sending your thoughts and feelings through the group chat is the appropriate manner to go through.

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Speaker 1: The other thing might be that is the landlord, someone who you are supposed to turn to if issues with other tenants aren't going well. It might be that kind of a setup. So it's a little hard to know exactly what my first plan of attack would be. Um, but so I come back to then assess where I live and what are the rules and boundaries of the place I'm choosing to live in? I really like your focus on who's the authority and if it is a real group situation where these 13 people are on the same least, it's not the landlord, it's about

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Speaker 1: figuring out the interpersonal dynamics within the house.

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Speaker 1: I think asking the same question is still just as important. How do these decisions get made? Does everyone sit down together and agree and then that's what it's going to be. Are there people who are responsible for keeping track of certain things? And

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Speaker 1: if that isn't defined or outlined, that might be a

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Speaker 1: great avenue to take, to figure out what the consensus rules are that are going to work for everyone

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Speaker 1: so that you can make decisions like do I want to live here or don't I want to live here? Do I want to live here with these people? But maybe not those people or vice versa. And

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Speaker 1: it could feel like a radical step, but that's also where a lot of your control comes from is your ability and willingness to make those decisions and having some clarity, Having some understanding can really help

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Speaker 1: make that feel more like a choice and less like a reaction to a situation.

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Speaker 1: The other thing that I think is really important to do is to look at yourself and are you behaving within you know the quote unquote rules of the house And have you all been instructed to not leave dishes and not let time be an excuse? Have you been instructed to you know, not have visitors over after a certain hour or something like that? I don't think so. It sounds like people are checking in about the visitors and this particular tenant is just being really fussy about it.

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Speaker 1: But I think that it is dan says it all the time anytime you point a finger at someone, there's usually three pointing back at you your own three by the way. Um For those who are worried, a lot of people get the imagery if you point at someone in like three other people come and attack you.

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Speaker 1: But really it's those three fingers on your own hand pointing back at you that remind you,

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Speaker 1: you know, what am I doing? Are there ways I could be behaving better if I tighten up if I made sure that I leave that extra five minutes to wash that dish or to throw out that food or put it in my bedside table drawer. Right. Bad idea. Whatever it is. You know what whatever it is, it's I think it's always good to just double check that.

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Speaker 1: And it sounds like you've got other people who are upset about this. This isn't just you, it seems like this is starting to happen on a level that feels harassment. That also means that the person who's doing all that harassing

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Speaker 1: is feeling like things are ramping up to A level. And I think that's worth recognizing to I'm not saying they're right for their behavior in any way, shape or form, but

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Speaker 1: you know, it's and and the loudness thing I still don't buy but the dishes and stuff like that. I think those are those are things that if they aren't being kept in line and you've got this many people and it's happening so frequently I could see roommates getting frustrated, housemates getting frustrated that kind of going over the top. So, always a good idea to just, you know, check in. I love the self reflection. I also love the idea of listening that someone might

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Speaker 1: be constantly sending you little notes that are not structured in a way that makes it easy to hear what they're saying. And I hear my cousin making a real effort to hear what's being said on the other side of this bad communication and looking past that mistake to the root causes another way that you can

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Speaker 1: maybe address the issue directly and in a way that resolves it, and ultimately, that's what you're looking for, you're looking to feel comfortable in your own home.

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Speaker 1: My parting piece of advice is something that my mother did used to tell me. She used to say, let it be like water off a duck's back if you've done your work, if you are being a reasonable and a good housemate, and there is someone who's constantly sniping at you,

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Speaker 1: let it be like water off a duck's back, let it roll off, you try not to let it become something that impacts you in a negative way that's giving them entirely too much control. And

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Speaker 1: the more you can do to take control of your own responses and reactions you're going to feel better in the end. So

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Speaker 1: I know it's not an easy task, but that's the other piece of advice that I think is important when you're dealing with a complicated situation like this and your exit strategy isn't apparent or obvious live best of luck with this housing situation. We hope that it either improves or you move into an awesome space of your own.

00:18:51

Speaker 1: There are many ways you too can do little things for other Children at school. If you just watch for the chance. Doing what you can to help others is an important part of being a good citizen.

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Speaker 1: Our next question is titled body commentary.

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Speaker 1: Dear Friends, My mother in law comments about people's bodies and she doesn't seem to understand that she creates discomfort, awkwardness and hurt feelings,

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Speaker 1: comments she has made range from my pregnant daughter's weight and shape compared her to a road construction barrel

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Speaker 1: to my mother's swollen ankles at a christmas dinner gathering and my mother simply had thick ankles

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Speaker 1: to the purple under my eyes.

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Speaker 1: Yesterday I told her that she must be unaware of how unnecessary, poorly timed and hurtful these comments are. She protested. These observations are not meant to hurt rather they're out of concern.

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Speaker 1: This conversation did not go well. She has to obese adult Children. I pointed out that my family has never ever commented on their body types. I suggest that when she has the urge to voice concern about someone's body, to think about how that might feel if her comment was directed at her Children.

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Speaker 1: That did not go over well

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Speaker 1: for financial reasons. Her poor planning, my mother in law lives with my husband and me. So avoiding her is out of the question.

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Speaker 1: Generally I get along with her, but I can no longer tolerate her body comments moving forward when she does make an ill timed unnecessary comment. What would be the best way to respond sincerely? Tara

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Speaker 1: Tara, one of the most difficult etiquette questions that we receive is how do I respond to someone else's rudeness when that rudeness is a real thing? And

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Speaker 1: the reason that it's hard to give is that it's not satisfying to me. And I'm guessing that it's often not satisfying to hear for the person who's asked the question in the first place. And that's that it's oftentimes

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Speaker 1: difficult to do anything. It's really hard to correct someone else's behavior. And the options that you have in front of you that are good from an etiquette perspective.

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Speaker 1: Oftentimes require a lot of you well and in this case the options that we all know are my favorites to go to, which are things like, okay, so you make decisions about how integrated this person is into your life. You know, you make choices that give you

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Speaker 1: boundaries, you can set you take back some agencies, some control for yourself.

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Speaker 1: And those are all those great therapy things I've learned over years and I'm just so happy that they are such good advice for so many people and it doesn't work when this person lives with you. This is tough. This is really tough. This is close quarters, this is close relationships, it's a generational difference to. We're talking about just, you know, anyone who's in that parent level versus a kid level and we're talking about a mother in law here

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Speaker 1: and so that's, there's

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Speaker 1: so many different senses going on here of perspective and things. The offense, the infraction is really personal. Oh my gosh, yes, I mean to speak to the basic etiquette at the core of this question, it's really rude to comment on other people's appearance, particularly if those comments are negative or could be perceived as negative in any way. In fact,

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Speaker 1: it's so easy to make the mistake and offer a comment that is interpret in a way that's different than you mean it, that we caution people to be really careful commenting on other people's appearances, whether it's positive or negative. And here's the kicker, right? Is that parents

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Speaker 1: have spent their whole lives looking at their Children to look for things that are wrong,

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Speaker 1: to look for signs, that something isn't right. And so you have a mother who is saying things like boy, you look really tired or I'm concerned that it comes from such a normal place. The question is, what filter are we putting on it? Both as the mom saying these things

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Speaker 1: and as the people who receive or over here them too.

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Speaker 1: Because it's not always just the people who it's being said about or said to. It's also the people around to hear it and get uncomfortable. I think you know it that that this conversation that didn't go well was a conversation that didn't go well That I think, I don't know what the mothers the mother in law said in the conversation, but I think that

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Speaker 1: probably how this was delivered didn't come across in a way that the mother in law was able to receive and that just puts more attention into it, which is frustrating and difficult. I think something that we have to acknowledge here is that when you bring up

00:23:34

Speaker 1: someone's Children and say no one's ever brought up your Children about this before,

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Speaker 1: that that is bringing up their Children. And you've done exactly the thing that you were saying doesn't happen. And we just have to

00:23:50

Speaker 1: be realistic about the fact that that occurred and acknowledge that there were mistakes that happened on both sides of this conversation when it occurred.

00:23:58

Speaker 1: That doesn't mean that you can't talk about it. It doesn't mean that in the future you can't address it if this behavior continues because it is really inappropriate for

00:24:08

Speaker 1: your mother in law to be saying things that make you feel uncomfortable in your own home and make other people who you've invited feel uncomfortable in your home.

00:24:16

Speaker 1: So how do you have that conversation? Well, how do you hopefully give it a chance for happening better the next time?

00:24:24

Speaker 1: A couple of tips, a couple of things that you might want to keep in mind definitely do it in private.

00:24:30

Speaker 1: Do it when your mother in law can hear you and when she doesn't feel attacked or called out in front of other people,

00:24:37

Speaker 1: get yourself organized ahead of time, both intellectually and emotionally, so that you can really self regulate. The

00:24:46

Speaker 1: the difficult task is to maintain the high road to hold yourself accountable,

00:24:50

Speaker 1: every standard that you would want someone else held accountable to. if they were going to bring up something really difficult with you

00:24:58

Speaker 1: don't assume that any of your good intentions are understood. Make them explicit. Tell your mother in law that you care about her, that you care about your relationship, that you care about the two of you, situation being able to live well together today and moving forward.

00:25:14

Speaker 1: Don't look for immediate fixes. Don't look for the conversation itself to be the solution. Don't even necessarily look for agreement from the other party in the moment.

00:25:26

Speaker 1: One of my favorite things to tell people outside the show is that when lizzie Post and I have these conversations, she's told me tell me and wait 24 hours and I might hear you at some point in that next 24 hours I do do that. And like you can keep saying this, but I might not hear you until Wednesday. That's a good thing to know and to be prepared for. Someone might never say I heard you. I understand. I think that what I did before was not perfect and I'm going to make it better than ever. But they might stop bringing it up because it's uncomfortable to be called out on it, particularly if they're called out well and it makes them feel not good about what they've done

00:26:05

Speaker 1: for real reasons when it comes to calling out. Well

00:26:08

Speaker 1: one of the things that I think didn't work well for you was to identify all the ways in which these comments are wrong and I know that sounds a little counterintuitive because you are supposed to stand up for yourself and identify all the ways in which these comments are wrong. But I think when you do it in a way and we're just going off what we have in this email, but where we say,

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Speaker 1: I told her she must be unaware of how unnecessary, poorly timed and hurtful her comments are those are your perspectives of of what she's doing and how it is affecting you. And her perspective is what she fired back with, which is I'm taking concern I care about you.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm among my family, I shouldn't have to filter myself every second. Okay, that one is debatable, but it's it is important to recognize that when you say

00:27:01

Speaker 1: this is wrong, you're bad at this, you're doing this incorrectly, that the other person can very easily just deny your perspective on it and say no, I'm doing it my way you're wrong. You know what I mean? But if you say

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Speaker 1: when you say these things, I feel

00:27:20

Speaker 1: she can't deny that that becomes a conversation to listen to. And I think that's an important difference in the way that you approach this. And I know we learn when you I feel in kindergarten, but it is such a great tactic. You know when I hear you make these comments about other people, I get uncomfortable

00:27:37

Speaker 1: or when I hear this happening, when I hear you make these comments, I'm actually hurt by them. And

00:27:43

Speaker 1: I don't think you realize that because I think you're coming from a place of trying to be concerned about each of us. But

00:27:49

Speaker 1: for me, the tired eyes, I'm embarrassed about that. Or it's not something I want. People commenting on my weight isn't something I want people commenting on or for me, my single status or my no Children's status is not something I want to talk about this holiday.

00:28:02

Speaker 1: And I think that gives you more agency than when you start things with. You do this, you do that, you do this, you do that.

00:28:10

Speaker 1: This is a long answer and kind of a tough answer because you asked a really good and important question, what do I do moving forward? We really hope that this helps have those conversations in a way that's more productive in the future.

00:28:24

Speaker 1: Unfortunately, that's not true with gotten,

00:28:27

Speaker 1: they use words just as carelessly as the parrot, but sometimes we take them seriously and often innocent persons are harmed.

00:28:34

Speaker 1: You see gossips don't stop to think that words are dangerous. They influence our national life and in war, they are powerful weapons.

00:28:42

Speaker 1: Our next question is titled loud in the library.

00:28:46

Speaker 1: Dear lizzie and dan, thank you so much for your podcast. I have been listening, believe it or not since middle school and I am now a freshman in college. Wow,

00:28:56

Speaker 1: It's been so much fun to grow and experience new life events alongside you guys. Thanks for being open and sharing about your lives.

00:29:04

Speaker 1: I've been thinking about you two ever since a moment that set me reeling. I just finished my first semester's files. Who Ray, Congratulations. And one day I was studying in a blissfully quiet room of the library. There were about half a dozen of us all working there diligently and we've been churning out our writing in almost perfect silence for about two hours.

00:29:24

Speaker 1: Q two friends who walk in and start talking loudly to each other

00:29:28

Speaker 1: instead of settling down, they face time another friend and proceed to talk on the phone for about 20 minutes.

00:29:34

Speaker 1: I found this completely distracting and inconsiderate, especially during finals

00:29:39

Speaker 1: and I got the impression that others in the room shared the opinion. In fact, almost all of us ended up leaving.

00:29:46

Speaker 1: Is there a way to politely and kindly ask people not to talk in the library? We weren't near any administration. And to be fair, we were on one of the lower levels of the library. We're talking is more allowable, but we were in a side room, not the main floor. And like I said, we were all pretty much silent when they walked in.

00:30:05

Speaker 1: I ultimately left moving to a different area of the library, but I felt really bothered that my work slash peaceful space had been interrupted. How can I navigate these situations in the future with consideration, respect and honesty. I appreciate your thoughtful advice. Happy holidays. Yours

00:30:25

Speaker 1: show. That's such a bummer of a situation. You know,

00:30:32

Speaker 1: this reminds me of just my flight on the 31st where the lady diagonally behind me was sitting with her child and she was opening pumpkin seeds for her kids. So she was you know, I wish I could, I wish we had the sound effect to make the noise, but I was like you know cooking and then she'd hand it to her kid who would eat the seed out of it

00:30:51

Speaker 1: and that was going on for like

00:30:53

Speaker 1: 30 minutes and I had to have a conversation with myself and myself to tell myself to chill out and this is like a one off incident like and yes, I looked over my shoulder and I did, I did, I did, I so stupidly did, I looked over because I was trying to figure it out,

00:31:10

Speaker 1: but then I looked over like once or twice more, just like out of pure annoyance, but I tried not to have like a super annoyed look, more curiosity look on my face,

00:31:19

Speaker 1: but it was a one off. It's like, it wasn't like they were having a loud, inappropriate conversation where you could really feel like you were justified in saying I'm sorry, do you mind quieting down or just maybe saving it for a different time? You know what I mean?

00:31:34

Speaker 1: It was definitely not something I felt comfortable speaking, but it was annoying.

00:31:40

Speaker 1: This is a situation where I think you're I like that at the end, she tells us that there's, you know, this is a lower level, it's you know, we start to see the balancing of Do I speak up, Do I not? Well, we're on a lower level of the library, we're talking more loud, but we're in a smaller room.

00:31:57

Speaker 1: It was silent when these people walked in. I think you would have been fine

00:32:01

Speaker 1: interrupting and saying, I'm sorry, do you mind taking that elsewhere just till the call is over or something like that? I think that I just think you would have been fine in the library final setting. I had a similar thought at first I was sort of imagining a multi tiered approach and the first tier is exactly what you just described, the power of a look. And we don't ever advise that you go around sort of staring people down, giving side eye, dance side, I look is scathing

00:32:31

Speaker 1: their levels, their levels to the side eye. And as you discovered on the plane, there's the I'm sort of curious, I'm looking and maybe and by looking, I'm gonna alert you to the fact that what you're doing might draw someone's attention that might be enough to bring your awareness to it.

00:32:46

Speaker 1: There's the gaze that has that hint of disapproval, the little reminder

00:32:51

Speaker 1: quality to it. That was it. I just saw it from lizzie post and then you have the severe, stern disapproving. I'm really bothered, I'm letting you know, I'm disapproving of what you're doing and it's subtle but that's real communication and that is part of the interactions that are at your disposal and are really effective. And

00:33:11

Speaker 1: I don't always

00:33:12

Speaker 1: mind it if someone gives me a look

00:33:15

Speaker 1: that reminds me, oh I'm on my phone here, there's a lot other people I'm talking kind of loudly,

00:33:20

Speaker 1: so I do think there are ways to deliver that that aren't rude in and of themselves.

00:33:25

Speaker 1: It is a library. I do think if someone's behavior is rising to the level where it's really disrupting the people that are there kind of defining the space by their presence that it is okay to say something and I'm reminded of Cindy settings example for Children about a beach

00:33:39

Speaker 1: and it's not rude to play volleyball. It's not rude to have a picnic, but it's rude to come set up your picnic in the middle of a volleyball game. It's rude to come set up a volleyball game over someone else's picnic. There is a little bit of a first come, first serve were defining this space that you acknowledge as the newcomer in a situation

00:33:57

Speaker 1: and kind of bringing someone up to speed on the expectation in that room is reasonable by the way, the way not to do that is to say, I'm sorry, just so that you know, in case you weren't aware this whole space was quiet till you walked in with your facetime call, not the way to go. But

00:34:13

Speaker 1: hey, do you mind taking that call elsewhere just since this happens to be a quiet room?

00:34:19

Speaker 1: Not not too unreasonable. Or do you mind keeping the volume down a little bit? There you go, using headphones? Those are all things to ask. It's not out of the realm of possibility. That facetime call was to someone else in a study group or something. So you never know you approach with

00:34:35

Speaker 1: a little awareness a little bit of expectation that they're going to hear you. Well, I was going to say generosity and you're likely to get a better response. Oh sorry. Didn't realize what we're looking for. A room to do this. We'll find somewhere else or they just bring the volume down by half and that's enough.

00:34:52

Speaker 1: We hope that this answer helps and that you have awesome scores on your finals.

00:34:57

Speaker 1: We know there are times and places to be quiet and other times and places when we can make noise if we want to. For example, when we play, we make all the noise we want.

00:35:10

Speaker 1: But when we go to the library

00:35:12

Speaker 1: we are very quiet

00:35:14

Speaker 1: because we know it's a room where we read to ourselves.

00:35:19

Speaker 1: Mhm.

00:35:19

Speaker 1: Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates, comments or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463 On instagram we are at Emily Post Institute on facebook. We are awesome etiquette and on twitter we are at Emily Post Institute.

00:35:40

Speaker 1: Just remember use the hashtag awesome etiquette in your post so that we know you want your question comment or feedback on the show.

00:35:49

Speaker 1: Mm hmm

00:35:51

Speaker 1: mm

00:35:52

Speaker 1: Right.

00:35:53

Speaker 1: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer in the topics we cover and today we hear from Michaela.

00:36:01

Speaker 1: Hello, awesome etiquette. I have some feedback on the postscript from episode 2 63 about tipping. You briefly mentioned that some companies do not permit employees to tip but offered no alternative for that situation. If an employee can't accept tips, you can instead provide feedback on their service.

00:36:18

Speaker 1: My husband used to work for a large chain retailer and his performance evaluation and ultimately his pay

00:36:24

Speaker 1: was based partly on the number of positive customer satisfaction surveys where he was personally named. So even if you can't tip, there's still a way to show your gratitude. Oh, Michaela, I really like that. Thank you for sharing that. And reminding us to include that advice.

00:36:39

Speaker 1: We've often said that it is a good way to show people, especially when you can't leave a tip. This happens especially in larger like retail chain stores where an employee's done a really great job whether this is, you know, a best buy type store or something like that. We've had so many people say I want to tip someone, I want to tip someone in a circumstance where I can't tip them. So what can I do? Leaving feedback is really key. Never underestimate the power of your words.

00:37:06

Speaker 1: Sometimes you can't give that gift, You don't have the gift card.

00:37:09

Speaker 1: But thanking someone showing your appreciation and in this case finding the right person to hear that, whether it's a manager or a supervisor or whether it's a customer feedback form that's going to get into the hands of someone who's making decisions or deciding pay

00:37:26

Speaker 1: is a really, really, really nice thing to do. Thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please keep them coming. You can send your comment or update two awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can also leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 K. I N. D. That's 8028585463

00:37:44

Speaker 1: It's time for our post script segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette and today we're going to talk about something that doesn't come up every day but is sort of fun to think about announcing persons of rank.

00:37:57

Speaker 1: And this comes from the Emily Post 1922 edition of Vatican. Right? So I am sure that some of it has changed, but this is some of the slower changing etiquette, you know, you hear dan and I talk about how

00:38:09

Speaker 1: dining etiquette is some of the slowest to evolve and change over the years. Or as communication etiquette often goes quickly and even just greetings, how the words we choose to greet one another changes, you know, pretty much every generation.

00:38:22

Speaker 1: Um But I think that this is something that's a little bit more kind of on the stately side of of Emily post advice.

00:38:30

Speaker 1: So this can be found on page 2 14 of the 1922 edition

00:38:35

Speaker 1: announcing persons of rank. All men of high executive rank are not alone, announced first, but take precedence of their wives. In entering the room,

00:38:47

Speaker 1: the president of the United States is announced simply the President and Mrs Harding,

00:38:54

Speaker 1: his title needs no qualifying appendage since he and he solely is the president,

00:39:01

Speaker 1: he enters first and alone of course, and then Mrs Harding follows

00:39:06

Speaker 1: the same form precisely, is used for the Vice President and mrs Coolidge,

00:39:12

Speaker 1: a governor is sometimes in courtesy called Excellency, but the correct announcement would be the Governor of New Jersey and mrs Edwards.

00:39:22

Speaker 1: He enters the room and mrs Edwards follows

00:39:26

Speaker 1: the mayor and mrs Thompson observed the same etiquette or in a city other than his own, he would be announced the mayor of Chicago and mrs Thompson.

00:39:38

Speaker 1: Other announcements are the chief justice and mrs taft the Secretary of State and mrs Hughes

00:39:45

Speaker 1: senator and mrs Washington,

00:39:48

Speaker 1: but in this case the latter enters the room first because his office is not executive.

00:39:55

Speaker 1: According to diplomatic etiquette, an ambassador and his wife should be announced their excellencies. The ambassador and ambassador dress of great Britain.

00:40:06

Speaker 1: The ambassador enters the room First. A minister plenipotentiary is announced. The Minister of Sweden. He enters a moment later and mrs Organ follows,

00:40:19

Speaker 1: but a first secretary and his wife are announced If they have a title of their own Count and countess, european or mr and mrs American.

00:40:30

Speaker 1: The President, the vice President, the governor of a state, the mayor of a city, the ambassador of a foreign power. In other words, all executives

00:40:41

Speaker 1: take precedence over their wives and enter rooms and vehicles first.

00:40:46

Speaker 1: But senators, representatives, secretaries of allegations and all other officials who are not executive allow their wives to proceed them, just as they would if they were in private individuals,

00:40:58

Speaker 1: foreigners who have hereditary titles are announced by them. The Duke and duchess of over there.

00:41:05

Speaker 1: Sorry, that just cracks me up when she writes that up over there.

00:41:12

Speaker 1: The marquis and marchioness of Land's end.

00:41:16

Speaker 1: Sorry, that's even funnier given the company now, sorry, or Sir Edward and Lady blank

00:41:25

Speaker 1: etcetera,

00:41:26

Speaker 1: titles are invariably translated into english Count and countess. Lorraine, not and I will now mangle the french,

00:41:35

Speaker 1: monsieur. Le comte a madame. La comtesse de Lorraine.

00:41:40

Speaker 1: I mean, if you could follow that please,

00:41:44

Speaker 1: I'm so glad I'm american. Sometimes keeping track of all those titles. This is for americans, know.

00:41:52

Speaker 1: And thank you to Brett's for doing the hard work and the heavy lifting of really keeping track of royal hierarchies and aristocratic convention for great Britain and the continent for sure. But here molly was talking a lot about senators and mayors and governors and representatives and the president and the vice president

00:42:14

Speaker 1: and who out of these people are supposed to stand walk first be introduced first to whom? In what way I learned something from her prioritization of executive office. That clearly that distinction to the office is something that starts to remove some of the social

00:42:32

Speaker 1: conventions and expectations and that

00:42:35

Speaker 1: helps inform decision making in an increasingly casual and informal world And when were asked to make these choices, I think in a kind of fluid way are we talking about an executive situation where the occasion is really about honoring that position.

00:42:48

Speaker 1: You start to have some latitude in terms of really prioritizing that person. I like it because it does get me thinking about etiquette that we don't think about daily, which is you know, when people do have titles, what is their verbal verse, they're written title? What does it look like? You know, when it's spoken

00:43:06

Speaker 1: versus when it arrives in the mail to them?

00:43:09

Speaker 1: And that's always sort of a fun little bit like I noticed that it wasn't and first lady. So and so, you know, in the example that was given. Um so I'm curious about that, a wondering if the title came later in the decades because remember what we're reading is from 1922.

00:43:26

Speaker 1: This is not necessarily the exact correct title for today's standards. I think we want to remember that.

00:43:31

Speaker 1: I would have to go check the differences to see exactly what they were.

00:43:35

Speaker 1: But I think it is really interesting to hear how the announcements would go. As we're thinking about the 20th edition of Emily Post etiquette. I'm looking forward to having a couple of examples where chief executives are women. I like that idea.

00:44:01

Speaker 1: We like to end our show on a high note and for that we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world. Today. We hear from Kerry.

00:44:11

Speaker 1: Hi Bannon lizzie. Thank you so much for your show. I absolutely love it.

00:44:15

Speaker 1: My name is Carrie and I'm from California and I want to give an etiquette salute to my friend Dina.

00:44:21

Speaker 1: Last week was my birthday and she texted me to wish me happy birthday and also in the text, asked if she could take me to dinner the next week.

00:44:32

Speaker 1: And the salute is just all about how hard it is. Sometimes too

00:44:37

Speaker 1: have courtesy respect and honesty in a text and we did the perfect guest host dance.

00:44:44

Speaker 1: I said what day are you available next week? And

00:44:47

Speaker 1: she gave me two days and I told her, okay, this day might work, I gotta check and then got back to her and then where would you like to meet? She said pick anything. I said give me three choices.

00:44:59

Speaker 1: And so it was just this perfect back and forth of offering and receiving an offering.

00:45:04

Speaker 1: So Dina thank you so much, you're a wonderful friend and and thank you dan and lizzie for teaching me all about courtesy respect and honesty. Have a great day. You guys

00:45:16

Speaker 1: carrie. This might be the best way to start off salutes for the awesome etiquette podcast for 2020 because this is just so

00:45:26

Speaker 1: that moment of relief where planning and coordination and the host guest dance go well and it feels good and you're like, oh, this whole social thing, it works, It really works. This is so nice when it works. I love it, I love it. You are encouraging me to reach out and make plans with people. Thank you Carrie,

00:45:45

Speaker 1: thank you for listening. Thank you to everyone who sent us something. Please connect with us and share the show with friends, family and coworkers. You can send us your next question, comment or salute by email to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com.

00:46:00

Speaker 1: You can leave us a message or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463

00:46:07

Speaker 1: on twitter. We're at Emily post inst on facebook We are awesome etiquette as well as the Emily Post Institute. And on instagram we are at Emily Post Institute. Please consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette or visiting awesome etiquette on Emily Post dot com.

00:46:27

Speaker 1: You can also subscribe to the ads version of our show on Itunes or your favorite podcast app and please consider leaving us a review. It does help the show rankings to spread more awesome etiquette. Our show is edited by Chris Albertine, an assistant produced by Brigitte, Dowd. Thanks Kris and Brigitte.

00:46:53

Speaker 1: Yeah.