Episode 28 - Sportsmanship and Burning Jerseys

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Speaker 1: maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social courtesy. That's old fashioned,

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Speaker 1: watch act as host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person, real friendliness.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to episode 28 of Awesome etiquette Dan. I can't believe we're at episode 28 already

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Speaker 1: beyond

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Speaker 2: the halfway mark.

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Speaker 1: Kind of awesome. That's

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Speaker 2: kind of awesome.

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Speaker 2: Our podcast comes to you from the studios of Vermont Public radio and is part of the infinite guest network from american public media. I'm lizzie post

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Speaker 1: and I'm dan post Senning from the Emily Post Institute.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so just quickly because I know our fans are actually here to talk etiquette and we will tie a tiny bit of etiquette into it. Free agency. Oh my gosh! What the heck, jimmy Graham is gone. I cried the entire week. I am devastated. I don't get me wrong, welcome to max Unger, that's wonderful and and welcome to all our new players but losing jimmy Graham was like, it was such a shock to me and he is, he's the player I always wanted a jersey of and I never got it. I asked three years running for christmas and my birthday and it never happened.

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Speaker 1: I'm so sorry,

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Speaker 2: breaks my heart.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to give you the best advice I ever got as about about love and loss in football as a teen and it applies to football, hold on tightly, let go lightly care a lot, but let go when it's over. It is so hard what

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Speaker 2: six ft 7 to 80 like can jump like what six ft in the air and I'm making stuff up, but I'm

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Speaker 1: saying goodbye to Darrelle revis over here. I, I understand perhaps the most transformational defensive player of a generation and I'm holding on to every strike and we got scott Chandler, he's a tight end, who's, he's an exciting prospect if you're into pass catching tight ends

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Speaker 2: well, just to tie it into etiquette a little bit, we will say that um free agency can be so hard and what I love is all the welcoming posts that I see going through my twitter feed, you know, the NFL will like repost

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Speaker 2: um with the hashtag free agency. But

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Speaker 2: what I don't love is, as we always say, no, jeering, only, cheering. So the burning of people's jerseys, not so cool. The making of New Jersey is like taking your old jersey and putting someone's new name and number on it. Very cool,

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Speaker 1: very cool. Good sportsmanship is an important part of competition today and we hear about it in all kinds of different ways at the institute. We hear from parents who are

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Speaker 1: um concerned that in a day of these days of participation trophies, the kids aren't learning how to lose well or win well

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Speaker 1: um where everybody's a winner and nobody is a loser and it's, it is sometimes you

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Speaker 2: lose and you need to get used to it, but you don't have to burn a jersey.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely true

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Speaker 2: dan, let's tell them what we did on saturday night because we worked saturday night. And it was kind of interesting,

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Speaker 1: you know, it started off his work and I definitely, as I was driving down and stopped to get a coffee on the way, acknowledged to the barista that I was off to work on a saturday evening by the end of the night, it didn't feel like

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Speaker 2: work, it was really enjoyable. We were, we were auctioned off for

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Speaker 1: charity auctions

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Speaker 2: auctioned off. We are, our uncle sits on the board of Burlington City Arts

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Speaker 2: and they held a charity event a number of months ago and one of the items he asked to be able to auction off was a etiquette dinner

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Speaker 1: with the post

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Speaker 2: and it was with as many of us that could show up from the institute as possible um which wound up being all of us except for Peggy. Peggy was unable to make it because she lives in florida, kind of a

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Speaker 1: good reason.

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Speaker 2: Um, but one of our favorite jewelry stores actually where my sister got her engagement ring was the company that bid on the item.

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Speaker 2: And what was really fascinating was that the

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Speaker 2: um, the man who had done the bidding, I think, I believe he's the manager of the store, correct.

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Speaker 1: The two stores fill

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Speaker 2: up of the two stores he manages the two stores Philip didn't tell the employees who were coming to the dinner what the dinner was. So even throughout the cocktail hour in the beginning, they didn't know who we were, they had no idea why,

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Speaker 2: why is this post family here? They all seem to be related when we don't get it, like what's going on? And you

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Speaker 1: know, I wasn't entirely sure I did either at that point.

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Speaker 2: Had you not gotten the email?

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Speaker 1: No, I had, and that was, that was the best call from Bill I think I've ever got at the office. What he called to ask if, if, if I would participate because he's explaining this, what you just explained much better than he did at the time. And could you be at my house for this, this, this, this dinner event. Um,

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Speaker 2: it was great because you kind of wonder, it's like these people know there's going to be some sort of surprise and as, as Billy said, it's not a trip to paris, but we do have an etiquette dinner where you were like, is this gonna fall really, really flat? But it turned out they were excited about it, they had fun with it.

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Speaker 2: Um, they all wish they had dressed a little bit up a notch even though they didn't need to at all. Um,

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Speaker 1: and I thought that, that the spanish had a really nice tone and character,

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Speaker 2: it really did. First of all, the food was fabulous. They had done the catering by dale, which was awesome. We always loved that

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Speaker 1: your father raved about the fish.

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Speaker 2: I know. Yeah, He really, he really liked the fish.

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Speaker 2: Um and then it really, it really was wonderful. It was like you had etiquette questions flying left, right and center. Dad did a little talk

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Speaker 2: which I

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Speaker 1: thought was heartfelt and was classic peter post. It reminded me of the toast at the training family

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Speaker 2: gathering in the training events short and then we did you you anna and myself each stood up and said a few words and then it was kind of back to just table conversation and

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Speaker 2: it didn't always stick to etiquette at our table, talked about igneous rock and and and the number pi.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it

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Speaker 2: was like we had a girl who was a math major and I um and a geology major. And so the conversation kind of straight in that direction. And it was kind of a fascinating conversation about a

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Speaker 2: volcano that had exploded in Hawaii and almost took out a shopping mall but then stopped inches before it. I mean it was a

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Speaker 1: classic geometry. It was really quite quite, quite lovely

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Speaker 2: Deanna and I get asked about small talk all the time. And truthfully it was such a wonderful example of how easy small talk can be. I mean, here they were.

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Speaker 2: The point was for them to be able to ask us any etiquette questions as salespeople working in a really high end

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Speaker 2: arena. You know, how do we make our customers comfortable, How do we handle difficult customers, that sort of thing. And truthfully, we talked about that during the speeches, but we didn't really talk about that at our tables. It was really engaging small talk

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Speaker 2: about interesting subjects that were really interesting to everyone. And I thought that that was um it was such a good example of how easy it can be,

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Speaker 2: especially when I know nothing about Math and Igneous Rock. And I just asked questions or I told the story of when I was in an earthquake or you know, it was like when you really think about it or when you, when you start thinking about what someone is talking about, just ask a few questions, it'll lead you to a few examples or comments to be able to make,

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Speaker 1: who knows? You might even learn a little something along the

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Speaker 2: way. I still don't get pie. It

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Speaker 1: really was, it was a lovely evening. Um I could talk about it all day, but you know, that's not what everybody is here for. Shall we get to some questions?

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Speaker 2: Let's get to some

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Speaker 1: questions.

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Speaker 1: Sure you're right. But there's so much to learn how to do. Sure there's a lot to learn. But it's worth it.

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Speaker 1: And learning is easy One way is by watching others on each and every episode of awesome etiquette. We take your questions on how to behave. Let's get started.

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Speaker 2: So our first question begins, Hello Emily and dan, I can't get away from it, can I'm never going to get away from that

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Speaker 1: time to just breathe just

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Speaker 2: named both

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Speaker 1: arms as a big hug and embrace it.

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Speaker 2: And it really does. We have, we have Franny in sitting with us today who's the programming director of V. P. R. And

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Speaker 2: and we are pointing out that our script actually says any hustle to start this question off any hustle. Here's my question. When is it appropriate to talk about my business? I recently launched a consulting business that is taking up most of my time and I find that it is all I want to talk about.

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Speaker 2: This is distinct from networking in my mind because the people I'm speaking to, you already have an established relationship to me. I don't want my friends to feel like I'm trying to sell them anything, but I also don't want to rule out the possibility

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Speaker 2: how or when can I go about bringing up my business to everyone around me, excited but timid

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Speaker 2: Caleb

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Speaker 1: Well, Caleb, I'd like to start by thanking you as always for your question.

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Speaker 1: Any hustle, what a great way to start a question phenomenal.

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Speaker 2: No, I'm really enjoying any hustle. In fact, I gotta say the question made the air because pretty much

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Speaker 1: anything that lizzie and I were talking about before the word, any hustle can lead us into this particular question. So any hustle, here's my answer.

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Speaker 2: I

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Speaker 1: want to start with a traditional etiquette piece of advice and you ask about when is it appropriate to talk business, particularly in social situations, there used to be some pretty concrete rules about this. There was a general guideline that

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Speaker 1: at a dinner at a social dinner that maybe had business implications. You didn't talk about business until dessert was served and you followed your hosts Q.

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Speaker 1: So the host would bring up the business subject and it would happen during dessert, during lunch or these days the business breakfast or brunch. That could happen any time during the meal. The tradition of waiting till dessert at dinner is not followed so closely any longer, but you definitely want to wait for the host to bring up the business subject. Now, if you're talking about a purely social situation, the decision of and I'm just sort of launching off from that traditional framework. Um, it's a little trickier. We live in a world of, of choice and in a world of choice, it can be harder to know what to do because you're responsible for making more decisions. And

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Speaker 1: this is one where you really need to to put on that that empathy. Hat and read the situation. It's entirely appropriate to mention your business to mention what you do. You don't want to get into to um involved or detail the sales pitch in social situations, you really want to acknowledge that it's a social environment in a social situation and keep the focus on that

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Speaker 1: here in America. We're pretty comfortable talking about what we do.

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Speaker 1: It's oftentimes a part of, of small talk of social dialogue. Um and it's, it's, it's a, it's a point of difference sometimes between continental or european and american manners in europe. You really don't talk a lot about what you do socially. It's considered a little Ghoshal inappropriate

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Speaker 1: in the States. It's those prescriptions aren't as strong.

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Speaker 2: No, it's low hanging fruit. It's easy stuff to talk about. In fact, it's one of the first ice breakers

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Speaker 2: that that people give you. I mean it's, it's as as easy as talking about the weather.

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Speaker 1: It sure is. So as long as you don't get into that that heavy push or pitch or sale, as long as you're not directly asking someone for business in a way that's going to make them uncomfortable saying, no,

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Speaker 1: you're going to be in good shape.

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Speaker 2: I just want to give you the advice Caleb that just like any subject, especially with people that you dine with entertain with socialized with regularly.

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Speaker 2: Um you don't want to overdo it because they'll get bored. They've heard the conversation they understand that it's, it's what's going on in your life and at some point they're going to want to cut you off

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Speaker 2: and you should cut yourself off before they do. Um so just like the wine guy that doesn't stop talking about wine ever and the only thing he ever talks to you about his wine, you don't want to be the business guy that only ever talks about his startup business or his business that he is so very proud of and excited about. Um so I say

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Speaker 2: give yourself that the, the catch up when you're with people that you have met and have talked with this, talked with about this before, but after that, you know, start talking about a different aspect of it and don't always bring the conversation back to your business and how something relates to your business because it's just not necessary all the time. You want to be interesting and engaging to your friends and you do that through variety.

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Speaker 1: I think that's really good advice. We hope that helps. So it's, it's not a prescription, feel free to go there but keep it light and be ready to move on. Don't overdo the dosage,

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Speaker 2: any hustle. Let's get to our next question.

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Speaker 1: Our next question begins, Hi lizzie and dan, I'm having a blast listening to your podcast each week. I'd love it. If you can address my question in an upcoming podcast or point me in the right direction. I've stumbled into an awkward online dating situation recently on a popular dating site. I received a message from a guy who didn't have a profile picture.

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Speaker 1: Usually I don't respond to guys who don't have a picture posted, but this guy's message was well written and he seemed genuine. So I replied to him, we started sending messages back and forth and we've had some good conversations and have gotten to know each other better. Eventually he sent me a picture of himself and you guessed it? I'm not at all physically attracted to him. He's really nice, but I can already feel myself inching away from responding to him

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Speaker 1: in this situation. My default mode is to do the fade away where I slowly distance myself from the person without any explanation. I know this isn't the best way to handle things, but I'm not sure what would be better in this case. I think it was clear that I was intrigued by him initially.

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Speaker 1: Is there a way for me to end this without it feeling like a cruel reaction to his photo,

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Speaker 1: He asked me to meet up with him for coffee and I made up an excuse. I feel like I'm wasting his time and my time by continuing to communicate on this forum where we're both clearly looking for a romantic partner.

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Speaker 1: We could be friends, but that's not what either of us are looking for.

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Speaker 1: What's the etiquette for communicating that I'm not interested in him romantically. Thanks for your help, cheers Anita.

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Speaker 2: This is a really difficult situation and it is one that it's unique to, you know, online dating. It's also, I would say unique to blind dates, um where you haven't met and this I I I like the fact that she hasn't actually met him in person that she's reacting to a photograph of him.

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Speaker 2: But let's face it, I mean, from the online dating experience that I've had it, it is what, you know, let's just face it, you've got to be attracted to the person sometimes that grows. Once you get to know them, sometimes, you know right away, this isn't going to happen. And it doesn't mean that the person is unattractive.

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Speaker 2: There are lots of attractive men out there that I am not attracted to and dan, there are lots of attractive women that you're like,

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Speaker 1: nope, not going

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Speaker 2: there. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: just not a,

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Speaker 2: not a fit and um it's okay that it's not a fit and I think it's okay for you to own that it's not a fit.

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Speaker 2: I personally would suggest one of two things and people are in different camps on this. So I really say that there isn't a wrong way to go here,

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Speaker 2: Well, there is a wrong way to go, but I doubt we're gonna suggest it. So, one thing that you could do is that you've talked with this person enough, it could warrant just meeting up in person to recognize that you've had enough of of genuine conversation that it's time to meet in person and see if there's any real chemistry. One of the ways that I have experienced this

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Speaker 2: is by literally saying to the person, you know, I've had a good time talking to you. But let's face it, there's no way we can tell if there's real chemistry through words on a screen. So

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Speaker 2: why don't we meet? No guarantees. But at least we'll give it a shot and that gives you an out from the beginning. You're letting them know from the get go. I know I enjoy talking to you. I just don't know if there's going to be that in person chemistry that we're going to experience and you're being honest and open about that and this is the truth. You do enjoy talking to him.

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Speaker 2: You probably have a good inclination that it's not going to be there. But maybe because the conversations have been so great so far you want to honor that relationship that you've established in this way, and I think you should feel comfortable doing that

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Speaker 1: without feeling like there's an expectation that there's even a second encounter because

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Speaker 2: you're setting it up to say, listen,

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Speaker 2: at this point, we got to see what this is like in person and that's it, and it's either going to be there or it's not. And that allows you to then say afterwards, you know, listen, I as I said, have had a great time talking to you for me, the chemistry wasn't there, but I'm really glad that we took the time to get to know each other and thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: That message as well as anybody I've heard I

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Speaker 2: you're

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Speaker 1: you're talking to a fade away or

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Speaker 1: I remember an early guilty as charged

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Speaker 1: in an early episode of this show. I remember you talking about being really up front with somebody about about not wanting to see them again and not delivering that as a cruel message. But as a message that frankly is as as humane as possible, it's honest and

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Speaker 1: that lets everybody know where they stand.

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Speaker 2: The chemistry isn't working for me or you know, I wasn't feeling the chemistry. I wasn't I didn't find that spark that for me, I really need to be there or this isn't working for me once you've been dating someone and need to end it.

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Speaker 1: And in some ways that's really showing someone the respect that they can handle it. That that you you think they can handle the rejection not managing

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Speaker 1: the tragedy of the loss of you in their life for them.

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Not that we think Anita is doing this, but we do think that I really agree with what dan said like there are are gentlemen that I had a great time talking to that did a fade away and I was just like,

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Speaker 2: you could have just told me you found someone else that you're not interested anymore or

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Speaker 2: this online thing isn't for you or whatever because it would be a heck of a lot nicer to hear that than for me to spend two weeks checking my site trying to see if I have a message from you or not

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Speaker 1: or wondering

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Speaker 2: what's happened because we had such great conversation, I don't agree with the fade away. I don't think it's the way to go.

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Speaker 2: However, option # two for you

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Speaker 1: around, option number

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Speaker 2: two for you is to just let him know that despite the fact that let him know without meeting up with him in person, that despite the fact that you've had some nice conversations, you've decided personally that it's time to move on in your online dating quest and that that's that's just your gut instinct and you're trying really hard to trust it throughout this process and you hope he understands,

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Speaker 1: I think in the same way that you honor somebody by giving them that message after a first date when there's not going to be a second date and you're able and capable of doing that in person.

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Speaker 1: I think it's also really important that you honor the person you've been discoursing and dialoguing with online in the same way and it's so easy to take the other route. And I know that it's often done these days, that the fade away is a big part of the online dating where it's almost as if dating is a buffet and you pick and choose and you walk by the buffet and you look at what you like and maybe you sample a little something, maybe just leave it on your plate at the table and go back and try something else and

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Speaker 1: that it's so often the way it's done today. But even in that world of online communication, there are real people on the other end of these, these back and forth, real emotions and real feelings

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Speaker 2: jello on a table that gets passed over because it's like mixed with cool whip or something.

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Speaker 1: Some people think it's spectacular. Some people think it's ruthless. Was it any different when it was singles bars and scenes back in the day

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Speaker 2: still is singles bars

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Speaker 1: and

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Speaker 2: it's just, it's got this added

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Speaker 2: added element. But I do think it is really important at any point in online dating to recognize the fact that you are talking to someone through words on a page, you're interpreting what they sound like, where their jokes are, what you know, how they took something, how they didn't.

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Speaker 2: Um it's it's really your interpretation of them that you're falling for or not falling for, and it's one of the reasons why even if it's maybe not not going great or stellar if there's something you see in the person, I always say median person and give it that chance, because it might just be a lot easier in person and,

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Speaker 2: and the online communication might be what's actually holding you back. So, and

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Speaker 1: unless you're looking for a

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Speaker 1: permanent online pen pal, that's the direction that you're you're wanting to take these relationships and the more willing you are to make that step, the more likely it is you're going to find that match

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Speaker 2: and Anita, I really do want to encourage you either either meet him or tell him that you've, you've decided to move on to other people that way. You can just have that clarity with him

00:20:33

Speaker 2: and best of luck. It is hard out there. It is really, really hard and I hope that you find someone you really connect with soon

00:20:39

Speaker 1: take her bunker rajah.

00:20:42

Speaker 2: I'm coming at this one from the grave. Hi dan and Emily, I'm a huge fan of the show and look forward to new post to brighten my monday. I like brightening people's monday's brightened

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Speaker 1: my monday last week,

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Speaker 2: right.

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Speaker 2: I am curious as to the etiquette when one is a guest at a party, I am co hosting a bowling party at one location and cake and refreshments at a friend's home for my best friend's birthday. Everyone on our team at work was invited to the party to avoid any confrontation. But shortly after the e invitations went out, a problem arose

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Speaker 2: a person on the team who the guest of honor is a passing acquaintance with first sent another friend to try and get the party time and location changed and then herself requested that the party location and time be changed.

00:21:31

Speaker 2: I responded that this would not be possible as a co host. My friend's husband and I had put a great deal of effort to find the locations for the events and plan something that the birthday girl will enjoy.

00:21:41

Speaker 2: I suggested that if she didn't feel like she could attend one or both parties of the event, that it would be understandable.

00:21:48

Speaker 2: The person rudely responded that people wouldn't attend because the locations are about 10 minutes apart and she plans on drinking at the bowling alley and other people would be drinking as well.

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Speaker 2: We planned a two PM party as a fun, no drinking and non formal meal event. I want to keep the focus of the party of my friend and the person in question is a my way or the highway type. What is the appropriate etiquette in this situation? Also, if the person does decide to attend the party,

00:22:16

Speaker 2: how can I mitigate the inevitable, griping

00:22:19

Speaker 2: sincerely, Alyssa,

00:22:21

Speaker 1: Alyssa.

00:22:22

Speaker 1: Hi sympathy,

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Speaker 2: brutal. But you're so in the right we get, I love it when we get to just say that your team melissa

00:22:29

Speaker 1: melissa, you are dealing with a difficult party guest and I think the best advice that we have to give at the moment is stick to your guns. You're, you're in good shape. It sounds like you're planning a great event. You're working with the guest of honor's husband. Um, you're taking everybody bowling. That's awesome.

00:22:47

Speaker 2: We love bowling.

00:22:48

Speaker 1: Um, you're, you're doing everything right, continue to be firm, continue to give your troublesome guests. The firm but polite response don't get drawn into a battle with this person that doesn't need to be a battle, you have the high ground and all of the heavy artillery. Um this is your party and and you can

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Speaker 2: just picture if you want

00:23:10

Speaker 1: to be

00:23:12

Speaker 2: taking bowling balls standing at the door ready to crush this woman as she comes in complaining.

00:23:18

Speaker 2: But anyway, no,

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Speaker 1: I mean it's kind of a little bit like that, continue to be firm, continue to stick to your guns. I've been working on this with something, We're not

00:23:26

Speaker 2: changing the party for one person and you know, just this girl is ridiculous. If she wants to drink at two PM, she can go to a bar and do it elsewhere.

00:23:35

Speaker 1: And I like that if you don't feel you can attend, that's understandable. I mean that's that's what we've really done the best that you can do

00:23:43

Speaker 2: dan's right, let's get to the language that we should be giving you. If

00:23:46

Speaker 1: if she has um if you get the impression that she's trying to build a cadre of allies to try to get the party changed,

00:23:54

Speaker 1: she wants a drinking party, she wants it later in the day. She wants a dinner,

00:23:59

Speaker 1: you can always talk to those people as they approach you. Give them the same, very reasonable reasons and explanations why you're doing it the way you're doing it that you gave her initially and

00:24:09

Speaker 1: hopefully that'll be enough and explain

00:24:11

Speaker 2: to your co host to what's going on just so that you have someone else, they're kind of able to back you up and support you on it and if they start approaching him that he doesn't back down either

00:24:20

Speaker 1: present a unified front, they cover your flanks.

00:24:23

Speaker 2: You did this with some with the, with the honoree in mind and that should always be a stronger reason than anything that this guest who is barely acquaintance of the honoree.

00:24:34

Speaker 1: Absolutely the place to keep the focus And at any time you find yourself in the spirit of the party, thinking more about the troublesome guests than the honoree. You can always remind yourself, keep the focus there

00:24:44

Speaker 2: and have an extra piece of cake.

00:24:47

Speaker 1: We hope that helps bowl a great game, have a great time

00:24:50

Speaker 2: seriously. I want to go to that party.

00:24:52

Speaker 1: Our next question is one with a little bit of a twist that lizzie and I both enjoy.

00:24:57

Speaker 2: It's like this is like a modern, modern parenting dilemmas,

00:25:01

Speaker 1: starts with teenage love and ends up somewhere on the internet.

00:25:07

Speaker 1: This question begins, my wife and I disagree on an etiquette issue and would like your opinion. Our 15 year old daughter dated a 16 year old boy for about five months. His family is nice and lives in our neighborhood. We had prior personal and business relationships with them and they have another child who plays sports with our Children

00:25:25

Speaker 1: after our daughter started dating this boy. Both she and I added him as a facebook friend

00:25:30

Speaker 1: about a month ago. This young man broke up with our daughter a few days after the breakup. I unfriended him without comment or other communication. Our daughter waited about a month after the breakup, but also unfriended him. Having no desire to see his pictures or posts. He did not make any inappropriate online comments or direct communication but did tag our daughter in some old pictures after their breakup, which she found to be a little creepy.

00:25:54

Speaker 1: The disagreement is this I believe that since neither of us was a facebook friend of this young man before they dated and the relationship is over unfriending him without comment is appropriate.

00:26:04

Speaker 1: My wife believes that the act of unfriending is rude and hostile and is concerned that the young man's family with whom we interact in other contexts may be offended and therefore my daughter and I have acted inappropriately. She believes we should have changed his status to one where he remained a friend without us seeing his posts, we would like your input.

00:26:23

Speaker 1: What is the right way to have handled this situation sincerely unfriending dad?

00:26:28

Speaker 2: Okay, couple things right off the bat. I love the fact that it's the dad writing in about this because so often and I'm not trying to gender stereotype here, but

00:26:37

Speaker 2: so often we hear this kind of a thing from the mom, whereas a lot of dads are like I'm not even on facebook

00:26:43

Speaker 1: like you know,

00:26:43

Speaker 2: um but I do I I kind of love the fact that we're starting to hear from dad's on facebook and

00:26:49

Speaker 1: is really involved in their daughter's lives. It's

00:26:52

Speaker 2: like really cool,

00:26:53

Speaker 2: secondly um you know, it's really funny because our our general advices, you can friend and unfriend anyone and nobody should feel bad about it, but how often have you heard someone say,

00:27:04

Speaker 2: oh it was so stupid, He unfriended me after we broke up. Like it was so stupid that I mean really what you have to unfriend me. And it's so funny because I hear those reactions all the time and I can understand people's hurt, you know, I can sympathize with him about it, but at the same time I'm like

00:27:22

Speaker 2: he broke up with you, he doesn't want to see photos of you, he doesn't want you seeing photos of the next, like it's you're not

00:27:29

Speaker 2: it's like you're not in a relationship anymore. It's okay to allow that to be a part of the breakup.

00:27:35

Speaker 1: I like the way you said allow that to be part of the breakup. There used to be space in this world to let the relationship go and it's nice to continue to allow for that space, it doesn't mean you have to and

00:27:47

Speaker 2: sunday

00:27:47

Speaker 1: and I and I and I love the way you pointed out that in the real world people get hurt feelings when they see this happen. So moms moms approach is not an is an approach that I frankly I've seen people take it with me all of a sudden you're seeing about six posts on their their homepage and they're all very general post, you say yourself, wait a minute. I'm no longer looking at this person's

00:28:10

Speaker 1: a friend connected stuff and I know I don't take it personally. I know people make a decision to go through and manage their social media in all kinds of different ways.

00:28:17

Speaker 1: There's been a birth in the family, they decide they're only going to share pictures with immediate family.

00:28:22

Speaker 2: And all of a

00:28:22

Speaker 1: sudden everybody is in a peripheral sphere,

00:28:25

Speaker 2: the clean house, I had a friend clean house and like a year and a half later she tells me, oh, I realized we're not friends on facebook anymore. And because we're now going to be going to events together, let's be friends. I was like, I didn't even notice that

00:28:35

Speaker 1: you unfriended me. That happens for all kinds of reasons. There's no need to take offense. People do. So there is that middle ground option of changing the status of their friendship to one where they see different elements of your profile. But what I just said indicates people

00:28:48

Speaker 2: notice when that happens

00:28:50

Speaker 1: too. Sometimes they noticed nothing at all. You started in the right place, you get to manage your social media connections and contacts. And

00:28:57

Speaker 1: the one big exception that we say is these communication tools really are meant to facilitate relationships and they're meant to serve relationships. And if you have a relationship where there's a reasonable expectation that you're going to participate in this particular communication medium and your sudden disappearance is going to cause people concern or alarm or

00:29:18

Speaker 1: even negatively impact that relationship. It's important to be aware of that and sometimes let people know what the reason is or why or what you're doing or

00:29:26

Speaker 1: just acknowledge the relationship that's already happened enough so that it doesn't turn into the fade away that we were talking about in the question about dating where all of a sudden you just disappear and people don't know why and they wonder about it,

00:29:36

Speaker 2: would you suggest that the dad had sent a message to the kid before unfriending? Because we've always said like now you don't need to send a message to someone telling them that you're unfriending but not

00:29:45

Speaker 1: necessarily. And that's the real exception. If there's a relationship where it would be reasonable for that person to to expected of you in this case there's been a break up and someone would understand what's going on here. And

00:29:56

Speaker 2: it's funny because it's one of the few times in our etiquette advice where we don't say you need to explain yourself

00:30:03

Speaker 2: or that you know an explanation or being open and honest is the right way to go. It's kind of like net just take the action for what it is and try not to let it affect you personally, it's a little bit like

00:30:13

Speaker 1: the wedding guest list because it is I think because and by making the comparison to the wedding guest list. I'm saying that we tell people not to be offended if they're not invited to a wedding. They know weddings going on. That that's a tough choice. And I think social media is a little bit the same way you're you're talking about managing lists and that's the reality of the situation. So someone on the other end of list management II

00:30:37

Speaker 1: I don't think needs to feel too aggrieved or get too emotional about what really is sometimes just a ruthless Numbers calculus.

00:30:46

Speaker 1: Um So in this particular case,

00:30:51

Speaker 2: numbers

00:30:52

Speaker 1: unfriending dad, you didn't do anything wrong here. It's entirely reasonable that you that you unfriend someone particularly after a breakup particularly you don't want to be reminded of them on a regular basis. That that and and no explanation is necessary at the same time. What your wife has suggested wouldn't be inappropriate either. And it really is a personal choice for both of you to make.

00:31:13

Speaker 2: What do you think about the the daughter thinking it was creepy that she got tagged after she had unfriended him.

00:31:20

Speaker 2: I'm

00:31:20

Speaker 1: not sure it would depend to me on the picture. You

00:31:22

Speaker 2: can't tell if she's just being and I hate to if she's just like being a little like

00:31:27

Speaker 2: like you know how after a breakup you kind of like try to try to be like why did you do that? That was stupid.

00:31:33

Speaker 1: Everything has a little more significance.

00:31:36

Speaker 2: Yeah. Or you just kind of like you put down every action of the person that you're mad at or they're

00:31:40

Speaker 1: part of the same social circle, their group circles that include all of them.

00:31:43

Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's like and it could be his way of being like listen you

00:31:47

Speaker 1: normalizing

00:31:48

Speaker 2: Yeah. Of normalizing. Exactly. I'm not trying to exclude you by not tagging you in things, you know? And I definitely know I've gone through my photos like a year after I put them up and tag people in them, you know, so it's not it's not uncommon but

00:32:02

Speaker 2: we loved this question just because it did it it it started at romance and ended up on the internet as dan said,

00:32:08

Speaker 1: it's such a great

00:32:09

Speaker 2: line

00:32:10

Speaker 2: and and it also had the fact that you know, they're they have business relationships and neighborhood relationships with this, this family too. And so

00:32:18

Speaker 1: social media,

00:32:19

Speaker 2: it's just one of those, it is one of those funny things and what would you say if the parents of this boy then kind of said, hey, you know, we just know it seems like you guys really cut things off after they broke up and

00:32:32

Speaker 1: I would be absolutely honest, I'd say, you know, after the break up we thought it would be good to get a little space

00:32:37

Speaker 2: but we still love having you in the neighborhood and you

00:32:41

Speaker 1: know, we hope to see little susie at the soccer, the soccer game. Yeah,

00:32:45

Speaker 2: exactly.

00:32:46

Speaker 1: It's just not that big a deal. Really. Yeah,

00:32:48

Speaker 2: we hope it isn't anyway. Well unfriending dad, we hope that that helps

00:32:53

Speaker 2: um solve solve the dilemma at least allows both you and your wife to feel confident in the ground that you stand.

00:33:01

Speaker 2: Our next question begins Dear lizzie and dan.

00:33:04

Speaker 2: I'm a big fan of your podcast and as a college student find myself in need of etiquette advice. Quite often. I'm going to stop right here and say then please tell us what you would like to know and we would love to know how you love to receive your advice, video book,

00:33:21

Speaker 2: online, article podcast. What is it? How do you want to hear it? What would you do to find it? Okay, A little aside,

00:33:28

Speaker 2: I work at an on campus office where about 8-10 students sit in one room working on individual projects on computers. We all share. Today. I happen to be working next to a fellow student who is not only spending her entire shift on her cellphone

00:33:43

Speaker 2: but also keep sneezing and coughing directly on the computer in front of her without covering her mouth or nose.

00:33:49

Speaker 2: This behavior is not only gross, but it's also extremely inconsiderate to whoever will be working on that computer next. I don't want to offend her by saying anything, especially because she is not affecting me directly. But I also think her behavior is unacceptable in a shared workspace. What do you recommend? I do.

00:34:08

Speaker 2: Thank you for your help and for your awesome podcast, sincerely donna.

00:34:12

Speaker 1: Oh donna. It's gross. And this is such a good reminder to all of us that all of those public spaces that we operate in our potentially so gross. I'm looking at the microphone I'm speaking into now who do

00:34:28

Speaker 1: use this microphone last

00:34:30

Speaker 2: pretty much

00:34:31

Speaker 1: everything that that we touch in the public world. I know some people that refuse to touch banisters in train stations or airports, escalators, door handles. Um, this is for me, a real reminder that it's a good idea to keep your hands out of your mouth, nose, eyes and ears after you've been operating in public spaces, that it's a good idea

00:34:51

Speaker 1: if you're susceptible to flues and disease to carry some hand sanitizer, wash your hands before you go to the table to sit down and eat and feed yourself

00:35:00

Speaker 1: because this kind of thing can happen. It can happen without you witnessing it happening next to you. It could have been what was happening at the computer that you're sitting at before you got there.

00:35:09

Speaker 1: So the question of how you, how you respond to it, you look at yourself and say, what can I do to protect myself in a world where this happens, first of all? Um as far as addressing the particular behavior itself, you usually don't have standing to address it. You could talk to somebody at the community center, the library saying, I just watched someone hacking wheezing and coughing out of the keyboard. Maybe they'll come over and wiped the keyboard down with something antiseptic. There's a good chance that that's not going to happen immediately or right away, but you can definitely let someone know. That might be the first best thing you can do.

00:35:42

Speaker 2: They might do something like have um have the manager since this is a work group on campus office.

00:35:48

Speaker 2: Um they might have the manager of the office, just remind people, hey, it's cold and flu season. I want everyone wiping down their machines after they're done, they're shift

00:35:57

Speaker 1: perfect. And and then then the responses or the the action is coming from a manager coming from someone who was standing to address this kind of situation and

00:36:05

Speaker 1: maybe it's going to be a good reminder for everyone, not just this person, but all the other people that are using those computers during cold and flu season. It's a perfect opportunity to also mention something Lizzy. And I often talk about when the question of how you address someone else's bad behavior comes up

00:36:21

Speaker 1: when I'm teaching business seminars. I remind people that whenever you point a finger at someone else, there's three fingers pointing back at you.

00:36:27

Speaker 1: That oftentimes the answer is very similar to the one we just gave where you don't have standing to talk to that person right away directly and it's a good reminder in that moment to take an opportunity for some self reflection to do some improvement yourself that if there's that one finger pointing at someone else, there's three fingers pointing back at you, it's a good time to say, you know, am I really

00:36:46

Speaker 1: um, being as clean as I can be when I'm out in public, am I someone that anyone else ever looks at and says, boy, you know that person just saying they're scratching their head over that computer and I'm sitting here wondering about a rain of dander that someone else is going to be

00:36:59

Speaker 1: dealing with in a minute. I know it's totally gross lizzie's just wincing right now, Sorry, I went there.

00:37:05

Speaker 2: Um but the

00:37:06

Speaker 1: point being that, that, that, that it's easier to see rudeness and others than in ourselves. Um for me, my example is when I drive to work in the morning, sometimes the person in front of me is going to slow, don't they know it's eight o'clock in the morning. People are trying to get to work

00:37:19

Speaker 1: other days, it's the person who's packing up 234 behind me and I say don't think it was Vermont, it's a beautiful day. What's everyone in such a hurry for? It's, it's usually an indication about my mental state when I'm aggravated about someone else's behavior. So it's a good reminder to take a deep breath and

00:37:34

Speaker 1: and pay attention to the people around me and be sure I'm not the one who's tailgating someone else or holding someone else up.

00:37:40

Speaker 2: So just a reminder Donna that we don't recommend that you actually speak up to this woman. But I would speak to your manager at the office and have her talk to people in general about wiping down machines and possibly about not using your cell phones while you're on shift

00:37:53

Speaker 1: and get yourself some antiseptic wipes and some hand cleaner.

00:37:58

Speaker 2: We hope that helps Donna and thanks so much for listening to the podcast.

00:38:04

Speaker 1: You hear that

00:38:06

Speaker 1: she says you're not as rude as you used to be.

00:38:09

Speaker 2: What do you know? Thanks

00:38:12

Speaker 1: once again to everyone for sending in your questions. They are the heart of the show and we really do appreciate it. Remember we love updates. If we answered your question on the show or if you have a comment about one of our answers to other questions, feel free to send it in. You can also submit your awesome etiquette question two awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com or send it in via facebook or twitter. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette. So we know you want it on the show.

00:38:39

Speaker 1: Today's post grip has to do with an etiquette area that that might not be so intuitive when you first think about it. But today we're going to talk about the subway and the subway came onto my radar

00:38:51

Speaker 1: at the institute. We track um through google discussions about etiquette that are going on in the world and we track media related to etiquette and really sort of fun article came up

00:39:02

Speaker 1: Then. It was some photography done by Stanley Kubrick of all people and it was of people riding the subway in the 1930s in New York. And connected to this. This photography was uh links to articles and

00:39:18

Speaker 1: And and comments that people had written about subway manners in the 1930s.

00:39:24

Speaker 1: And what was so what was so striking was how similar they were to the manners that people are talking about today. In january of this year. The mass transit authority in new york started a subway etiquette awareness campaign. And I'm pretty sure that the article that I saw come across my desk recently in March

00:39:41

Speaker 1: is in response to that awareness campaign. There have been signs that have been going up in the new york city subways meant to draw people's attention to certain behaviors and I definitely think it's been working because I've been seeing more and more articles about etiquette on mass transportation, public transit. So, good work M. T. A. On your public service campaign. It's working. And I'm seeing the ripple effects out there in terms of the media dialogue and discourse and this particular article from 1930 reminded me of something else that I'd seen. It was a picture of

00:40:10

Speaker 1: People standing at a bus stop in New York City and they're all sitting there furiously typing away on their phones and no one's talking to each other. And the the quote under the picture says something like boy, you know, people don't even look at each other and even talk to each other anymore. And then the next picture is of that exact same bus stop in the 1940s and everybody's standing there with their Fedoras and they're looking good in their suits and every single one of them has their face buried in a newspaper and nobody's talking to the person next to them.

00:40:35

Speaker 2: See this is the thing is that everyone complains about, oh nobody talks to each other anymore. They're strangers. Like what were you going to do other than say hey and just acknowledge their presence, which people still do even when they have cell phones. I'm not saying they do it

00:40:50

Speaker 2: Well all the time. I'm not saying it's the best all the time. But frankly people in the 1930s were doing the same level of ignoring the people around them that we do today.

00:41:01

Speaker 1: People are people. And as joseph Campbell would tell you, we all struggle with the same basic human condition. So are

00:41:07

Speaker 1: our actions and our reactions have some similarities. The,

00:41:11

Speaker 1: the mass transit etiquette campaign that the new york city subways are doing right now address four or five major issues. Things like people taking up too much space on the seat, people grooming and primping on the subway. People standing with too much stuff in front of the door is another really big one.

00:41:28

Speaker 2: I like the one that complained about having groups of Children on the subway during like rush hour, like

00:41:35

Speaker 1: totally main

00:41:36

Speaker 2: hours of use. I was like really

00:41:38

Speaker 1: being aware of commuter times when people are, are busy and are trying to get places, you

00:41:42

Speaker 2: know, it was just funny because what you don't think the mom with the kids has to get places to like come on

00:41:49

Speaker 1: NEW YORK. Really funny. I found a similar set of signs done in the 1940s. They addressed all the exact same issues. The character of the cartooning was different, but the topics that they addressed were the exact same in 1940 as they are today.

00:42:05

Speaker 1: Um, in a five Generation family business on etiquette, we often reflect on the cyclical nature of etiquette and how

00:42:13

Speaker 1: um, some things are changing all the time, whether it's a calling card or a cellphone, something's really are staying the same that people care about how you treat them, that it matters. Um, this was a particular window into a world of how etiquette changes and it continues to stay the same all at the same time because it happens in this venue, This contained venue of the subway.

00:42:31

Speaker 1: We're going to make a available all of these articles through our social media channels and I'm going to be posting images from various subway etiquette campaigns onto our twitter and facebook feeds.

00:42:42

Speaker 1: So the end of today's postscript is going to be an invitation to join me online on our social media space to enjoy a review of subway etiquette over the years as depicted in helpful etiquette posters from the new york city subway. So I hope you'll enjoy

00:42:58

Speaker 1: and tell me what you think when you meet me online sometime a little later this week. Social courtesy does pay, doesn't it? Thanks Each

00:43:07

Speaker 2: week we like to end our show on a positive note by giving an etiquette salute to a person or organization out there who is really

00:43:15

Speaker 2: um, exhibiting good etiquette behavior out in the world and basically making the world a nicer place for all of us to be.

00:43:23

Speaker 2: And today's salute comes from a listener who um, her name is faith and she is nominating one of her friends and she really thought that his behavior towards his, his girlfriend was something that was worth an etiquette salute and we agree

00:43:39

Speaker 2: howdy lizzie and dan, I love that we got a howdy, I hope you're doing well and that the cold isn't too overwhelming up there in Vermont, just so you know, it is still cold here

00:43:49

Speaker 1: in Vermont this

00:43:50

Speaker 2: Morning. It was, I mean it was like what, 17° not

00:43:54

Speaker 1: fun.

00:43:55

Speaker 2: I was just listening to this week's podcast while making dinner and remembered that I've been meaning to send you an etiquette salute for awhile now. So I had to stop and send it before I forgot again. I apologize in advance for all the vagueness with names and locations, but I would hate for the unknowing subject of my friends awesome etiquette to somehow

00:44:14

Speaker 2: hear about it and be embarrassed.

00:44:18

Speaker 2: My best friend, let's call him steve an alias of his own choosing. So just so you know, her friend isn't the one that she thinks would be worried about it. It's actually his girlfriend

00:44:27

Speaker 2: has a girlfriend who lives in another country. They visited each other quite a bit and while steve and his girlfriend both have great jobs and are highly respected in their fields, the economy of her country compared to ours means that when he visits her, he's comparatively rich.

00:44:42

Speaker 2: During steve's first visit to his girlfriend's country, he knew it was important to her that she treat him as well as he had treated her in his hometown and she insisted on paying for everything.

00:44:53

Speaker 2: But when they went out for dinner at one of the nicest restaurants in town, he happened to see the bill and immediately felt like he couldn't let her pay it. He told me I didn't even know what the conversion rate was. But I knew that 1000 units of any sort of money was a lot for a person getting paid in that currency.

00:45:13

Speaker 2: but he didn't want to imply that he thought she couldn't afford it or that he was richer than she was. He just knew that because of the currency conversion, the meal would cost him less than it would cost her, as he told me, he wanted to acknowledge that she was willing to spend so much on him, but didn't want to be a burden on her.

00:45:32

Speaker 2: So now the etiquette excellence phrase I love, he convinced her to let him pay without coming across as condescending or giving the appearance of charity. He told her sincerely it made me so happy that you brought me here. Please let me thank you by doing this. And she acquiesced

00:45:52

Speaker 2: his thoughtful, respectful way of approaching the situation, left them both feeling good about it.

00:45:57

Speaker 2: I was so impressed with his ability to take what could have been a situation that made her feel bad and turn it into an opportunity to show her how much he respects her and how grateful he is that she cares for him

00:46:08

Speaker 2: now. If only I could handle my own tricky situations with such panache. I'm hoping that between steve's example of diplomacy and the awesomeness of the awesome etiquette podcast, I'll keep improving good evening to you both and thank you so much for your podcast. It's always a bright spot in my week. Best faith isn't that lovely.

00:46:27

Speaker 1: Thank you so much faith.

00:46:29

Speaker 2: I really love and I love how steve did handle that situation. It was extremely respectful and definitely worth repeating. Should you find yourself in a similar place?

00:46:39

Speaker 1: Definitely a little bright spot in my week. Thank you.

00:46:42

Speaker 1: Well now wasn't that better look at the effect of a little politeness?

00:46:47

Speaker 2: That's our show for today as always, thank you for listening and spending some of your day with us. We hope you have a

00:46:53

Speaker 1: wonderful rest

00:46:54

Speaker 2: of your week

00:46:55

Speaker 2: and remember that you don't have to stop with just us. The Infinite Guest Network has amazing podcasts on it to fill up the rest of your week until your next monday when we show up in your podcast inbox again,

00:47:09

Speaker 2: don't forget there's no show without you. So send us your questions, your etiquette salutes and your suggestions to awesome etiquette at the Emily Post dot com. If you like what you hear, don't be shy, tweet it, facebook post it and of course you can subscribe on itunes and better yet leave us a review. Well that is if you like us

00:47:27

Speaker 1: please

00:47:28

Speaker 2: on facebook where the Emily Post Institute on twitter, I am at lizzie. That's lizzie with an I E a post

00:47:35

Speaker 1: and I'm at daniel underscore

00:47:37

Speaker 2: post or you can visit our website Emily

00:47:40

Speaker 1: Post dot com.

00:47:41

Speaker 2: Our theme music was composed and performed by bob Wagner