Episode 280 - Thank-You Oops

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Speaker 1: maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social. Could you see it's old fashioned,

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Speaker 2: watch how busy post and then post to act as host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person, real friendliness.

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Speaker 1: Hello! Welcome to awesome etiquette

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Speaker 2: where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty.

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Speaker 1: On today's show, we take your questions on escalating bad behavior. Can the mother of the groom where black addressing adults formally and mistakes in your thank you

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Speaker 2: notes for awesome etiquette sustaining members? Our question of the week is about how to handle bridesmaids with babies at a no kids wedding

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Speaker 1: plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a postscript segment on having perspective

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Speaker 2: in the world of etiquette. All that coming up

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Speaker 2: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of Vermont Public radio and is proud to be produced in Burlington Vermont by the Emily Post Institute. I'm lizzie Post and I'm dan post sending.

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Speaker 1: Hey, it's always so strange when New Year's falls on like a Wednesday because the day like was it Tuesday? It was a Tuesday this year, Wednesday Tuesday. Well because it's the first, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but the first, the first was a Wednesday and so we take that day off and then you like have thursday and friday which are technically work days, but it's such a short week then it's always so weird

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Speaker 1: but we got to do our annual check in of our business and what we're doing and where we're going and it's always my favorite way for the two of us to kick off the year. So dan trekked on down to Burlington and came over to my house for the afternoon on friday and we,

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Speaker 1: we laid out the company set our plans and people should know what that I know it's like, it's a lot of white boards and a lot of coffee dan was very excited by my coffee offerings.

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Speaker 2: It's excellent double espressos start to finish,

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Speaker 1: but it's a really good feeling whenever we do this because we really love the work that we do and the podcast is certainly a huge part of that, but we really do love getting to carry on a family tradition, a family business. We love the subject matter that we get to represent and what we get to spend our days talking about.

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Speaker 1: And we really love the reflection on the entire subject that we get because of our audience like you, because our world does change.

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Speaker 1: So this meeting is, I look forward to it every year because it's just such a reaffirmation of all of those things. It's such a great way to kick off the year.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what to describe as my favorite part of it is in some ways it feels like such an indulgence. It's really nice to just sit around and vision about the future and I do

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Speaker 1: not answer emails and to not respond to anybody for a whole day. It's good to not

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Speaker 2: be responsible for the work that's going to get you there at least yet

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Speaker 1: to dream

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Speaker 2: it.

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Speaker 2: But that's what I anticipate about this particular recall, annual meeting, State of the State. What surprised me was the surprise is that you think after 10 years in the institute in the same business, you have a pretty good sense for where you are and what you're going to be dealing with are facing. And

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Speaker 2: I felt like by the end of the afternoon I was thinking about things that I that weren't even on my radar when we first sat down.

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Speaker 1: That's exciting inspiration. I like it. Well, we will be excited to talk to you all about what some of those things are in upcoming episodes.

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Speaker 2: But for now we have some questions to get to.

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Speaker 1: We absolutely do.

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Speaker 2: Let's do it

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Speaker 1: awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions. You can email them to awesome etiquette at Emily Post. Com. Leave a voicemail or text at 802858 K. I N D. That's 8028585463 Or reach us on social media on twitter. We're at Emily post inst on instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute and on facebook we are awesome etiquette. Just remember to use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media post.

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Speaker 1: So we know you want your questions

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Speaker 2: on the show.

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Speaker 2: No,

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Speaker 2: mm hmm.

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Speaker 2: Our first question this week is deliciously titled, Let them not eat cake

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Speaker 2: advice needed please. My 21 year old daughter was at a birthday party for my 21 year old fiancee's daughter on the 20th of december. And when the birthday cake was passed out, my daughter said no, thank you, I don't really want any. So my fiance explained to my daughter how rude she thought it was of her to decline the cake and it hurt my daughter's feelings.

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Speaker 2: I then had my family over to my home on christmas Eve and my daughter was compelled to make an attempt to tell my fiance that it was embarrassing and humiliating to have had this happen and she did not appreciate it.

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Speaker 2: My fiance cut it short and said to her that this was our christmas and she was not going to discuss it. Then got up from the group they were at and walked away, repeating herself in a louder tone so everyone could hear.

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Speaker 2: Of course this stuff never happens when I'm there. I was on the patio and of course I only get to hear it from their own versions, which were very similar. So tonight I asked my fiance at what point does she intend on opening and addressing the path to resolve the hurt feelings

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Speaker 2: and the answer I got was when my daughter reads your column on good behavior,

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Speaker 2: I have in my own mind made what I consider a good, reasonable answer. My need of your opinion is for expert advice that is neutral and wise. Please advise anonymous.

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Speaker 1: O anonymous. We often stay away from who's right who's wrong type questions as best we can. But they do come up and this is one where you've got some interesting things happening,

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Speaker 1: some escalating behavior and of course, you know the toss out of the and you should really read the Emily post column. We actually don't currently have a column, but we do have a podcast and we're glad to have you all here listening.

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Speaker 1: This is a, this is a tough little situation. I think that if we wanted to like hammer out hard yeses and nos on some behavior really quickly, I know you don't have to eat cake at a birthday party. Even if it's a celebratory cake, it doesn't matter. So retirement party, wedding part any of this, you are not obligated to consume cake.

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Speaker 1: I think the decline might have come, not in a pleasant tone. And so the question then becomes, you know, have you declined eating cake appropriately?

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Speaker 1: I think that you do have to show up and participate at these types of events to the best of your ability. So if you're going to turn down or if you're not going to play the games or it's a 21 year old party, so probably not games, but you know, if you're not going to participate in the birthday, then you try to be just simply as as pleasant as possible

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Speaker 1: and you don't try to, you know, sit and sulk in a corner, but you just say, okay, I'm not going to have cake and probably not going to sing, but I am going to be here and I'm going to talk to people and

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Speaker 1: that's how I'm gonna handle it. I think you don't call someone out at a holiday event ever, that this was wrong time and place for the daughter to to try and bring this subject matter up.

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Speaker 1: And then I think as the adult who was, who was the target of it wrong idea to walk away and then escalated by shouting louder, speaking more loudly about the topic to even more people and then throwing that you should read Emily post column. I mean, that's like

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Speaker 1: why What I hear here though is one person anonymous, the person writing who said,

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Speaker 1: how are you going to move forward to try and resolve this? And to me that's the clear voice out of the group.

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Speaker 1: So anonymous. I think you did a good job trying to encourage your fiance towards a resolution. I think that's really hard when things are heated and feelings are hurt and your fiance is probably wanting her own feelings to be recognized as well. And so I think there's probably a lot of validation needed here, dan's nodding on the other side. And I think there's probably also

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Speaker 1: a lot of how are we going to move forward that needs to happen. But wolf, this is a, this is escalating behavior.

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Speaker 2: I like the three areas you've identified. This is such a complicated situation and

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Speaker 2: the etiquette permission to decide what you eat I think is important. Sometimes participating. Well means and this is a little etiquette tip.

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Speaker 2: No, thank you portion. Sometimes you could say, oh, I'll try a little piece or give me a piece out of the center. I'm not a big frosting fan. There are ways to sort of find a sweet middle spot that I think is often consider it. And having said that you don't have to eat anything, you don't have to eat anything you really don't want to.

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Speaker 1: And that's different. Like if you're at a dinner party where you're like one of three guests and you're refusing the entire dinner.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's probably pretty awkward. But we're talking about a large, it sounds to me like a larger gathering, you know, and I think this just this feels like a really okay place to refuse food.

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Speaker 2: Having sort of acknowledged that. I also think you identified and I'm calling this the second area. The place where this question got really squirrely, which was the public confrontation about the conflict

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Speaker 1: at the christmas Eve party in front of all the relatives. Absolutely saying how upsetting this this moment of embarrassing you over the cake is

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Speaker 2: so often we say if you're anticipating any sort of awkward conversation or any sort of difficult conversation or you're wanting to talk to someone else about their behaviour,

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Speaker 2: do it in private, do it at a time and place where they're going to be able to hear you and

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Speaker 2: that didn't happen here. And you see exactly why we give that advice because

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Speaker 2: it can get fraught quickly. And all kinds of other feelings, feelings of embarrassment, shame, humiliation start to come into play and I know those are strong words, but

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Speaker 1: they're very prevalent

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Speaker 2: feeling like they're

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Speaker 1: really present feelings. I think about even even you and I in moments where we've either thought that we've called each other out in front of someone business minds or we actually have

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Speaker 1: the degree to which that changed how we talk to each other in the moment, how we feel about each other in the moment, our own sense of self righteousness or casualness

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Speaker 1: and where we are with it and what we think the other person should do. It's a very fiery moment when shame or embarrassment come out and there are others around

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Speaker 2: and the reaction that you described as sort of the increasing volume walking away

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Speaker 2: escalates that feeling. Now both parties are engaged and involved in that same bad decision making about the appropriate time and place to do this

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Speaker 1: in terms of advice moving forward. What do you think?

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Speaker 2: Third area? We often say traditional etiquette to respect elders. And I think that that respect comes

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Speaker 2: with a cost

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Speaker 2: and that's that I expect more of the elders in a situation. And in some ways here, I'm counting on the parents to take the lead to find the appropriate time and place to have the next conversation too,

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Speaker 2: manage those emotions that can be so strong to avoid the comments that can be seen as cutting or diminishing

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Speaker 2: things like it's time you read in Emily Post column, even if it's what you're thinking as the more mature and we're going to assume that of the elder person in the situation. It's how you display your maturity, that you manage those emotions and figure out ways to move forward in constructive ways with close family members. And that's what we're talking about here.

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Speaker 1: Now. If you wanted to maybe suggest that as a family, you all start listening to the podcast together because that just might, you know,

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Speaker 1: ease tensions over time. That's that's why I like that suggestion of Emily posting this, you know?

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Speaker 1: No, but I think this makes sense. I think it is on the parents to come together with this daughter and

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Speaker 2: talk about the situation. I think that's perfect and talk about it in the context of how we repair our relationship, that we don't want this to be an ongoing trouble spot for us. That it's important that we figure out a way to move forward and

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Speaker 2: how to resolve situations between us in the future in a way that we can all

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Speaker 2: feel comfortable with whether or not we're in agreement

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Speaker 2: anonymous. It sounds like you had a good first try at bringing a positive resolution to this. We hope that this helps you keep it up.

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Speaker 2: We don't want to call your Children down in front of company or friends. But how can we remind you when we think you're forgetting to be considerate of others?

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Speaker 2: Is there any way we can let you know you're being selfish without talking about it in front of others?

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Speaker 1: Maybe we could work out some signal that we all know means stop you're not being nice.

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Speaker 1: Our next question is quite short and it's titled

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Speaker 1: Black for the M. O. G.

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Speaker 1: My son is getting married on valentine's day at 6 30 PM is black and acceptable color to choose for my gown. Thank you Beth

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Speaker 2: Oh, Beth my mother used to say, don't put me on color committee and I've adopted her kind of joke. Like

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Speaker 1: that's what your mom used to say. Don't let him fool. You dan spent a lot of time picking out his

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Speaker 2: tux for his way. It's black. The answer to your question is

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Speaker 2: this is a great time to exercise all of the choice that you have

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Speaker 2: and to ask, I

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Speaker 1: like of it that quickly went from exercise all the choice you have to ask

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Speaker 2: what a great choice to make. I can do whatever I want. Why don't I check in with the people who might be most bothered if I make a choice that they're not happy with. I think that's a good idea. When you hear from the interested parties, then I think you make

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Speaker 2: the choice that you're most comfortable with. But

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Speaker 1: I'm going to spell out some of those parties right now. I think we do want to be checking in with the couple and we want to make sure that both members of the couple are okay with it. Beyond that, I'm not as worried. I think those are the two most important moving beyond that. Typically the mother of the groom differs too,

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Speaker 1: the mother of the bride, but we don't always know if there are a bride and a groom or if there are two grooms, we know there's a groom in this case. And so I think just depending on the dynamics of the couple and also your relationship with the other parents of the couple. I think it's not a bad idea to just toss out there. I'm thinking of wearing black like

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Speaker 1: she good color. I just wanted to check in with people because I know it hasn't always been accepted at weddings,

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Speaker 1: but you have are, you have the Emily post backing for years. Black has been acceptable at weddings. So that's, that has significantly

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Speaker 2: changed. I'm guessing a wedding on valentine's day isn't a ga themed wedding, but it could be, we don't need a man bleeding hearts, We don't know all the details. So while there's no prescription against it,

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Speaker 2: there is a safer path forward. If you want to be sure

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Speaker 1: if by chance, someone doesn't feel comfortable with it. If they are worried that it's going to feel like your morning this union, then I think it's important to respect that and instead maybe choose something just incredibly dark, like maybe a really deep midnight blue or really incredibly deep dark teal green.

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Speaker 1: Like I think there are colors that will work that aren't black. If someone has any kind of objection to that particular color,

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Speaker 1: beth we hope this helps have a great time at the wedding and congratulations to your son and his partner.

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Speaker 2: Our next question is about addressing adults Happy New Year. What is the appropriate etiquette for how many tweens should address their friends, parents in this day and age?

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Speaker 2: Several of their friends address my husband and I by our first names instead of mr or Mrs last name.

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Speaker 2: It's been bothering my husband as he says, it reflects a lack of respect or being too familiar

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Speaker 2: as times have changed. I'm curious what the current thinking is on this and how should we address this without making them feel bad as it's been a first name basis for quite some time.

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Speaker 2: Have a wonderful 2020. Thanks Dina

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Speaker 1: Dina. We traditionally talk now that people should always default to the formal first. So when you talk about our etiquette and what do we say nowadays, where things are a bit more open and a bit more casual and more and more adults request that they be called by their first names by

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Speaker 1: generations below them. So it is different nowadays. But the advice that we give is that you always default first to the formal and then once you've been invited to the informal, that's when you use it. So your husband, it's not that he's necessarily right or wrong about the advice, but it's that it is a preference what you get called.

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Speaker 1: And I like the fact that he's aware of the traditions that they should default to the formal first. And I know lots of adults who do get irritated when people who are younger than them don't default to the formal first. And I think that after a number of years it can feel tough to want to switch back

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Speaker 1: or to bring this up when it's been going on for so long. But the truth is is that you get to be called what you want to be called.

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Speaker 1: And if this is something that's really been bothering your husband,

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Speaker 1: you should feel the agency to speak up about it. He should feel like it's okay to say, you know, this might seem silly after so much time. And I recognize that I haven't chosen to speak up about this before, but I actually do prefer to be called Mr jones by my son's friends. I really hope you'll understand

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Speaker 1: and that's just how I was raised. And it's nothing on the closeness of our of our relationship and you hanging out with my kids. You know, I think you can say things to make it less awkward,

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Speaker 1: but if you really want that change made, you're going to have to speak up for it at this point. Right?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. And for me, I really key on that idea that people get to decide what they want to be called. That you ask about etiquette in this day and age. We do live in a time where people have an incredible amount of choice where there are a lot of options about what

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Speaker 2: we get to be called and hence the choices people make about what they want to be called. And because you have so many choices, you don't need to feel bad about letting people know what your choices are and take care if you're changing something that's been a certain way, people might not get it right away.

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Speaker 2: They might make some mistakes early on as they get used to whatever the changes that you're making.

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Speaker 2: Be tolerant understanding about that, that we all have linguistic habits the same way we have physical habits or emotional psychological habits and

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Speaker 2: it might just take a reminder or two or even just patients to let those new habits form.

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Speaker 2: Dina. We hope this answer helps your husband and you get called what you want to be called. Thank you for a great question to get us started in 2020.

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Speaker 1: The youngsters who start to learn their manners early are fortunate youngsters. They may not think so at the time, but as they grow older, they realize

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Speaker 2: that good manners can't be put on for

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Speaker 1: special occasions. Only

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Speaker 1: our next question is titled precious. Thank you notes, Dear lizzie and dan. Hi, I hope this email finds you and your families well and warm in the new year. I have a question that is part etiquette and part third grade writing class, but my third grade writing teacher lives many states away and does not have a podcast. So I'm bringing it to you.

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Speaker 1: I've had a lovely holiday season. I received some unexpected and thoughtful gifts and I'm sitting here on january 1st writing thank you notes by hand. So far, all the etiquette is on point.

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Speaker 1: Then I right,

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Speaker 1: this will help us put new tires on my car,

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Speaker 1: tired. Well I haven't had caffeine today and I am a little groggy. So I get a new card and start over. The card is inexpensive. And thank you. Notice just a few sentences. So it's no big deal.

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Speaker 1: But then I did it again,

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Speaker 1: not exactly the same thing, but on the second full paragraph of a much longer. Thank you. Note this time I put a single line through the error I made and kept going. I definitely remembered some rule from grammar school about using a single line rather than scribbling out the word, but that's about it.

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Speaker 1: Was I wrong to have done that. Is it rude to send a note with that sort of correction? Does the length of the note matter? How does one properly handle an error in handwritten communication? Surely there were errors before keyboards and I'm just as sure that people didn't spend days and weeks rewriting everything in full.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for everything you do. That puts consideration, respect and honesty out into our world, sincerely.

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Speaker 1: Katie,

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Speaker 1: there were totally no typos before keyboards ever. Everyone did spend days and days writing

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Speaker 2: things. I love this question. I love it makes me feel like, I mean one of those Youtube videos where they give a fax machine to an eighth

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Speaker 1: grader

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Speaker 2: or a rotary dial phone and say like make a call. I think

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Speaker 1: Katie is more capable than that. But I hear what you're saying, I hear what you're saying. She's

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Speaker 2: so capable and I so appreciate the work that's going on here to write. Thank you notes to,

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Speaker 2: to write notes in appreciation of a really great holiday season that was full of little delicious surprises. The tone sounds like the Emily. Thank you. Notes that we read a couple of weeks ago in the post script. And I want to do everything we can to help

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Speaker 2: keep these thank you notes getting out the door. The strikethrough, single line through is absolutely the best. I don't want to say way to make a correction, but the most sort of common way to make a correction. You do the strikethrough so that an editor, if you're working with an editor can see what the original error was.

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Speaker 2: I also think it looks cleaner than any sort of scribbling over things. That's aesthetically, I think the simplest thing that you can do so to my mind also,

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Speaker 2: as far as not having a purpose with an editor, but just landing in someone's hands, I think it looks the best If you're going to leave that error in to just do a simple single line strikethrough.

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Speaker 1: And then do you rewrite the word above it? Or do you do like the little carrot arrow up? If I should really know the name of that, given what I do for a living. But

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Speaker 2: if I catch the mistake in real time, I'll just write the correct thing after. But if I'm writing and I find the error in the reread absolutely strikethrough and directly above or where you're inserting

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Speaker 2: with a little carrot,

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Speaker 2: it's not ideal, but people will understand. And particularly if it's the difference between sending it or not, it's the end of

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Speaker 2: an afternoon of writing these and boy, you can just finish off the last couple and get them out the door. They're actually going to happen,

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Speaker 2: Do it, get them in the envelope, get them out the door,

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Speaker 1: Katie. I so sympathize with you. I am that person sitting there, you know, rewriting it or wondering, well, can I get away with this? Is it getting away? That makes it feel less nice if I'm like getting away with something, you know what I mean? And it's a thank you note. I like here that you've talked about the difference between a long note and a short note.

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Speaker 1: And I think yeah, with the shorter note, it is a lot easier. You know that three sentence note to just especially like you said, if it's, if it's inexpensive paper, that sort of thing and you have the time to just grab the note, rewrite it, Make a nice clean version. No problem. But on those notes where you've written, you know, like filled the entire card or written a page or two.

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Speaker 1: I think it's much more understandable to have a mistake that's been corrected. I also think it's really good to show the correction

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Speaker 1: because I think it's better than just leaving it completely blank. I understand when someone's crossed something out and rewritten the correct one, but if they haven't, my brain will pick up as I'm reading it that oh, there's an error there, you know? And so I think when you actually show the fix it's good. But the thing that dan and I both do to make sure that we don't have this problem as often is that we actually write out our notes on some kind of word doc or

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Speaker 1: on our phones or just anything that does have some kind of a correction on it. I

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Speaker 2: like to actually physically write it out because part of the issue for me is blocking it out on the page. Oftentimes a note or doesn't have lines on it, particularly using a thank you note or correspondence card and just so that I can

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Speaker 2: place the right number of words on a line line, usually

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Speaker 1: a step further you go even like you don't just, I just put my type mine out on whatever is the easiest word processing device. Second reach

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Speaker 1: and you actually you pre handwrite yours.

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Speaker 2: I do for me there's the second consideration just thinking I know of the stationary I'm using is more expensive. So particularly when I'm using the nice stationary in quotes. I like to just do it one time really quickly on the back of a word dog or something like that.

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Speaker 2: The quick notes that are just flowing. No, obviously I'm not going to hand write out everything ahead of time. But

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Speaker 2: Katie, we hope this helps you. And a few other people get those notes out the door. I

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Speaker 1: don't know how you do it. Wally.

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Speaker 2: You make it seem

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Speaker 1: so easy

00:24:47

Speaker 2: walter. How do you write such good social letters?

00:24:51

Speaker 2: Well nora, it's a talent.

00:24:53

Speaker 2: Some people have it. Some don't.

00:24:59

Speaker 1: If you love awesome etiquette, consider becoming a sustaining member over at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette.

00:25:06

Speaker 2: You'll get an ads free version of the show and

00:25:09

Speaker 1: access to bonus questions and content. Plus you'll feel great knowing

00:25:13

Speaker 2: that you helped keep

00:25:14

Speaker 1: awesome etiquette alive.

00:25:16

Speaker 2: Mm

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Speaker 2: Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates, feedback on our answers or more questions to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463 You can reach us on social media via twitter at Emily Post Institute

00:25:37

Speaker 2: on instagram at Emily Post Institute

00:25:40

Speaker 2: and on facebook we are awesome etiquette. Just remember to use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your posts so that we know you want your question on the show

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Speaker 2: 66

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:25:55

Speaker 1: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer and the topics we cover and today we hear from Greg and faith,

00:26:04

Speaker 2: hi lizzie and dan. But mostly lizzie on this one. I listen to the podcast but I am still in the 2000 and 17 season.

00:26:13

Speaker 2: The show is great and I love your focus on etiquette with a modern twist.

00:26:17

Speaker 2: Anyway, the New year is coming and in the past, I know Lizzie has thought about cleaning up her language. I've also made that resolution many times.

00:26:25

Speaker 2: Something that may be helpful is a show I've started watching called The Good Place,

00:26:29

Speaker 1: Love The Good Place.

00:26:31

Speaker 2: If you are unfamiliar. It's a show based in a heaven like good place where the main character is not supposed to have made it there

00:26:39

Speaker 2: whenever she tries to swear, it's auto edited to another word. For instance, the F word is replaced with Fork. I've started to use these replacements, especially at work. Here is a link to their fan page with a list of alternatives. I hope it helps. Happy holidays and good luck with any resolutions you make best Greg,

00:26:58

Speaker 1: Greg. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. I think Forks a pretty appropriate one. Given, given our job stan

00:27:05

Speaker 2: say so and we will be sure to share that link on the social media accounts for awesome etiquette.

00:27:12

Speaker 1: Absolutely. Our next piece of feedback comes from faith. It begins hi lizzie and dan. I just wanted to reach out with some feedback about the free ride friends who find themselves picking up the tab for group Ubers.

00:27:23

Speaker 1: This is something I was struggling with myself recently until I found the easy solution. Don't be so quick to volunteer to get the Uber smiling face.

00:27:32

Speaker 1: Free ride Friends mentioned that someone always says let's grab an Uber, but then nobody gets out their phone so they wind up being the good ones doing it. This was happening to me too. And when I thought about it, I realized, okay, faith, you're a very mission oriented person.

00:27:48

Speaker 1: Once a plan has been made, you're ready to execute the plan with maximum efficiency.

00:27:53

Speaker 1: Not everybody is like that. When they say let's get an Uber, they're not purposefully waiting for someone else to make a move there. Just taking their time getting started on the plan. I made a decision when there's no real rush and I feel like it's someone else's turn to get the Uber, then I'm just going to sit on my hands metaphorically

00:28:12

Speaker 1: and wait until somebody else does

00:28:14

Speaker 1: and it works. Of course, if I'm really anxious to get somewhere, I order an Uber just like I would, if nobody else were there with me and I still get the group Uber. My fair share of the time. I've just learned to take a chill pill and remember that just because I think we've been waiting a weirdly long time for someone to order an Uber.

00:28:31

Speaker 1: That doesn't mean the rest of the group feels that way, smiley face. Thanks as always for the awesome podcast. I'm headed to Patreon to switch my membership over now. Best Faith

00:28:41

Speaker 2: Faith. We'll see you over on Patreon and thank you for the feedback. What an awesome idea. Just don't put yourself in that awkward position in the first place, which can be harder than it sounds

00:28:53

Speaker 1: hands. Sitting on hands. Indeed.

00:28:57

Speaker 1: Thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please keep them coming. You can send your comment or update two awesome etiquette

00:29:03

Speaker 2: at Emily Post dot

00:29:04

Speaker 1: com or leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 K. I N. D. That's 8028585463

00:29:13

Speaker 1: It's time for our post script segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette and today we're going to talk about how we see rudeness in ourselves and others and how that sometimes there's a little bit of disparity. And this work comes from our business etiquette seminars dan you teach this all the time?

00:29:31

Speaker 2: I do and we do business how to get seminars for people in

00:29:35

Speaker 2: all different industries at all different levels of organisations. We've been doing it for over 10 years and

00:29:43

Speaker 2: there is some material that really has weathered well, that has stood the test of time, that is useful no matter what audience you're talking to, no matter what their level of experience is. And one of the slides that makes almost every deck that I find myself putting together. Those are the PowerPoint decks that I use when I'm presenting is a slide that

00:30:01

Speaker 2: talks about the results of an Ap Ipsos poll that was conducted a few years ago on rudeness in America.

00:30:07

Speaker 2: They ask wonderful questions like are americans router today than they were 20 or 30 years ago.

00:30:13

Speaker 2: I almost want to pull our audience with these questions and hear what the answers are, but we should

00:30:18

Speaker 1: we should do a podcast survey.

00:30:20

Speaker 2: I'll leave that question open, I'll ask people to think about it for themselves and I won't

00:30:27

Speaker 2: reveal what the answer is right now, but I do want to reveal the next two questions from that poll that I share with audiences. And the first is a question about a particular kind of rudeness. And Ap Ipsos asks people if they have witnessed people using cell phones in a rude or annoying manner in the past month or so, and

00:30:46

Speaker 2: big surprise. Something like 89% of people answer that question in the affirmative, almost everyone has experienced a cellphone. Rudin is personally recently, I find that particular answer sort of comforting in some ways do not because

00:31:03

Speaker 2: rudeness is just so pervasive, but because it's not personal, if you ever find yourself out there feeling aggrieved, like, oh this is happening, it's happening to me, everyone so rude to guess what, everyone is so rude to everyone and I guess I'm the eternal optimist because I find some way to see that in a positive,

00:31:20

Speaker 1: oh yeah, you know, we have job security for a long time to come.

00:31:25

Speaker 2: The story gets more interesting when you get the follow up question and the follow up question goes something like this, and before I reveal it, if you're out there and you like to pause the show and try to answer the question first, try to answer for yourself before I say it,

00:31:39

Speaker 2: what would be something illuminating, what would be something interesting to know Right after you've determined that something like 90% of people have experienced a certain kind of rudeness,

00:31:50

Speaker 1: pause for self answer

00:31:53

Speaker 2: ap ipsos asks, have you used your cell phone in a rude or annoying manner recently?

00:31:58

Speaker 1: Those three fingers pointing back at you? Right, well

00:32:02

Speaker 2: I wonder how many people answered that question in the affirmative,

00:32:06

Speaker 1: you mean saying like yes, I've used my cell phone in a root or annoy manner in the past month or so,

00:32:11

Speaker 2: and here's the big reveal on the slide.

00:32:14

Speaker 2: Everybody thinks that number is going to be lower than the 90%. Because I ask these questions sequentially one after another, most people are prepared and they think oh it's going to be lower.

00:32:24

Speaker 2: What surprises people is how low? Only 8% of the american public answers that question. In the affirmative,

00:32:32

Speaker 2: everybody says they're witnessing rude behavior on cell phones. Only 8% are willing to say I've done it recently.

00:32:39

Speaker 2: It's

00:32:40

Speaker 2: unlikely improbable phenomenon. It would be remarkable. If it were true, it would mean that there are a few bad actors who are so bad who are so egregious in their behavior. It impacts everywhere.

00:32:52

Speaker 1: And not only are those 8% so egregious in their behavior that they impact everyone, but they're able to actually circulate among all the other 92% of us

00:33:02

Speaker 2: not likely know what's the more likely moral to the story? What's a more likely explanation for those two data points?

00:33:10

Speaker 1: We see rudeness in others more easily than we see it in ourselves.

00:33:16

Speaker 2: I think that that is

00:33:18

Speaker 2: patently obvious that that answer jumps out at you. It's easier to see rudeness and others than in ourselves. And there's all kinds of reasons for that, that

00:33:27

Speaker 2: we don't tend to notice the behavior that doesn't impact us. So it's the negative behavior that jumps out. We aren't able to give other people the same benefit of understanding their good intentions. Even if we

00:33:38

Speaker 2: make the best effort to do that. We understand all of the reasons that we use when we make little exceptions for ourselves

00:33:45

Speaker 1: is going to say we forgive ourselves but not other. We know why we're choosing to do something a certain way.

00:33:51

Speaker 2: I think there's another moral, I think there's another lesson that I like to extract from this and that's that. I think the vast majority of rude behavior is unintentional.

00:34:00

Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, yes. People don't wake up in the morning, look in the mirror and say I'm going to be rude

00:34:05

Speaker 1: to the next six people I see and then I'm going to save some rudeness for the people back at home.

00:34:11

Speaker 2: I'm going to be a disagreeable and unpleasant person today, I'm going to bother someone else. I'm going to disrespect them and make it harder for them to be

00:34:19

Speaker 2: be their best self.

00:34:21

Speaker 2: It's just not the way most of us are programmed. A few. There are a few really bad actors. If you internet trolls aside, most people like to think of themselves as good people of goodwill and good intent and I like to give people that credit.

00:34:35

Speaker 2: The vast majority of rude behavior is unintentional. I think people don't mean to do it. I think that we don't notice the impact that we're having. We don't fully understand the impact of our actions.

00:34:46

Speaker 2: There is a working definition for rudeness that I really like and that's rudeness is behavior that causes emotional harm or distress, but isn't so egregious that someone is likely to mention it to you,

00:34:57

Speaker 2: that it's

00:34:59

Speaker 2: gray area Infraction

00:35:01

Speaker 1: point that we want to dive. That is a whole other separate postscript segment my friend, It

00:35:06

Speaker 2: is and often comes up when I'm introducing this question because people say, well what's rude on itself and people have different ideas about what's right? So you got to kind of

00:35:15

Speaker 2: put your framework in place and the idea that rudeness is by definition something that's negatively impacting someone else

00:35:22

Speaker 2: makes it much less relational in terms of how you define it. Well, it makes it more relational but easier to define.

00:35:29

Speaker 1: But that second part then that it's not something you would actually call, it's not so egregious. You'd call someone out on it really says a lot.

00:35:38

Speaker 2: These are subtler infractions, their infractions that don't necessarily rise to the level where you're likely to get fired or asked to leave or

00:35:47

Speaker 2: it

00:35:47

Speaker 1: doesn't mean that mounted, you know, time and time again. They wouldn't have an impact on the people around you, but they are, I guess what you would deem forgivable offenses like. And and so the question becomes, is it more worth it to just dish out that that past that slide that

00:36:07

Speaker 1: you know, that moment of letting someone else have a moment,

00:36:10

Speaker 1: or is it more important to say something about it? And that's when you kind of know what you're working with?

00:36:16

Speaker 2: And that question that you just asked is the question that in some ways I use this slide

00:36:22

Speaker 2: to remove from the table, because the question I want people to ask themselves is how do I change my own behavior first? That it's really probably not so likely that

00:36:33

Speaker 2: 89% of the rudeness is coming from 8% of the population, it's more likely that we need to get the percentage of the population that can see what they're doing as being part of the problem to acknowledge that and address it. That that's where there's a lot of room for improvement. That's the place where you have the most standing to take action and there's still work to be done there. So

00:36:55

Speaker 2: for our very etiquette, the audience here at awesome etiquette,

00:36:59

Speaker 2: I want to pose that same challenge. I want to introduce this information as a way to remind you that the place to start is always at home. That etiquette is a powerful, powerful tool when used for self improvement. Self reflection.

00:37:13

Speaker 2: Self analysis. It becomes functionally much less useful when you're using it to assess or address other people's behaviors and based on the questions that we get on this show. I know that's the approach that most of our audience takes, but I thought I'd share some of the data that I used to introduce that idea to a fresh audience and

00:37:32

Speaker 2: frankly just about every fresh audience that I talked to.

00:37:35

Speaker 2: So I'm hoping just a little bit the next time you find yourself out there encountering rudeness, you'll remember this post script and use that as a moment for a little self reflection, a little self improvement and hopefully you can take a course of action that's going to make someone else's day just a little bit better,

00:37:53

Speaker 1: johnny's road and south and he doesn't think of others, you won't take turns,

00:37:59

Speaker 1: and he always seems to be mad at somebody always johnny or bossing us around. You don't think he really wants to be that way, do you?

00:38:09

Speaker 1: Maybe he doesn't mean to be selfish, but he is,

00:38:12

Speaker 1: he just doesn't know that you have to be nice to get along with others.

00:38:16

Speaker 1: We can't

00:38:18

Speaker 1: we like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world and that can come in so many forms. Today we have quite the tale from Jordan,

00:38:33

Speaker 2: hi dan and Lizzie, Happy holidays.

00:38:36

Speaker 2: I must first of all say that I love your podcast. I found it quite serendipitously through a business webinar in january 2018 featuring dan and was struck by the premise of etiquette being an opportunity over an obligation.

00:38:50

Speaker 2: Since then, I have become a voracious fan listening to all of your episodes through 2000 and 18.

00:38:56

Speaker 2: I've loved living life with you and now that I'm all caught up, I savor your episodes and find myself hoarding them for just the right setting to listen.

00:39:03

Speaker 2: The awesome etiquette podcast has enhanced my life in many ways, most notably when I was looking for a new house, trying to make sure that it had a beautiful dining space. The fact that I have now slept in my guest room to try it out. Using your principal of the platinum Rule. In a recent business talk. I gave

00:39:20

Speaker 2: the copious notes I've taken on stalking the delicious sleeve vintage wet bar that our new home also has. And the many times I have had dan and lizzie in my head as we have navigated moving to a new part of town and re establishing ourselves with many new people and relationships

00:39:37

Speaker 2: for all of those beautiful life lessons. I can't believe that the reason I'm writing you today is because of head lice, but nonetheless, that has recently been the catalyst for quite possibly the greatest show of hospitality I have ever been afforded.

00:39:52

Speaker 2: My family, including my husband, three kids and myself traveled to stay with my husband's brother and sister in law for thanksgiving.

00:40:00

Speaker 2: We were going to be staying with them for four days and three nights, which is already a big ask and planned to attend several large family events Over the course of several days, we arrived in the 11 o'clock hour on the night before thanksgiving

00:40:13

Speaker 2: schlepped our family of five size hall of luggage and gifts for the christmas exchange that we were cramming into our thanksgiving celebration

00:40:21

Speaker 2: and we're getting our kids put to bed. I had just scooped up my four year old to take her to bed when she muttered the foremost chilling words that almost ruined thanksgiving mommy! My head itches. I immediately surveyed the situation and, much to my horror, discovered that she in fact had head lice.

00:40:40

Speaker 2: A million thoughts erase through my head. And I looked at my husband in bewilderment.

00:40:45

Speaker 2: I went straight to my sister in law and brother in law sitting in the living room and said, I can't believe the words that I'm getting ready to say. But we brought headlights into your home.

00:40:55

Speaker 2: I asked if they wanted us to leave immediately and apologized in a state of unpreparedness.

00:41:01

Speaker 2: Even now I get tears in my eyes when I recall their response, they didn't bat an eye or even share a very understandable sigh of annoyance. My sister in law said it's going to be okay, let's just get ready to do a lot of laundry.

00:41:16

Speaker 2: My brother in law jumped up from his seat, zipped up his hoodie and said, let's go to the drugstore. I am not lying when I say we were up until 4:35 a.m. The next morning treating hair and doing laundry and they were by our sides the whole time

00:41:32

Speaker 2: on thanksgiving morning, the larger extended family asked us not to come to the thanksgiving gathering just to ensure that we didn't unintentionally spread lights to other family members. Are hearty hosts stayed with us and we prepared to beautiful improvised meals that were completely nontraditional but so filled with love, you could almost taste it.

00:41:52

Speaker 2: We asked them repeatedly if they'd like us to leave and would have understood completely if they had said yes. However, each time they reassured us that we were welcome and wanted

00:42:02

Speaker 2: as we ended the weekend. I can say with honesty that when I look back on all the thanksgivings of my life, this one likely stands out the most as being both memorable and meaningful.

00:42:13

Speaker 2: Perhaps the mark of the greatest hosts is not how beautiful their centerpieces are, how delicious their homemade whipped cream is, which was for the record divine or how perfectly they're place settings are, but how sincerely they welcome you and are willing to roll up their sleeves and live life with you.

00:42:30

Speaker 2: I am grateful and forever touched by this act of hospitality and larger than life etiquette.

00:42:36

Speaker 2: Keep up the good work and maybe someday I'll write back with something more glamorous than a parasite love noun. It free but forever grateful.

00:42:46

Speaker 1: Oh, that's such a great story. I mean minus the headlights. But like it led to so many good things.

00:42:54

Speaker 2: It could be almost a christmas special minus the headlights. Like the true meaning of the holidays comes through.

00:43:00

Speaker 1: Right, That's awesome. Thank you so much for sharing that.

00:43:05

Speaker 2: Thank you for listening. Thank you to everyone who sent us something and thank you to everyone who supports us on patreon. Please connect with us and share this show with friends, family and co workers and on social media. You can send us your next question comment feedback or salute to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com

00:43:23

Speaker 2: by phone. You can leave us a message or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463

00:43:31

Speaker 2: On twitter we are at Emily Post Institute on instagram, we are at Emily Post Institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette and the Emily Post Institute.

00:43:40

Speaker 2: Please consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette or by visiting awesome etiquette on Emily Post dot com. You can also subscribe to the ads version of our show on Itunes or your favorite podcast app and if you're looking for another way to support the show, please consider leaving us a review. It helps with our podcast ranking, which helps other people find awesome etiquette.

00:44:02

Speaker 2: Our show is edited by Chris Albertine, an assistant produced by Brigitte

00:44:06

Speaker 1: Dowd. Thanks. Kristen Bridget.

00:44:16

Speaker 2: Mhm.