Episode 284 - Sharing at the Pool
In this episode of Awesome Etiquette
Welcome to Awesome Etiquette! Where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. On today’s show we take your questions on tipping for carryout, sharing public pool chairs, bringing toddlers to fancy restaurants and showing up late to a wedding. For Awesome Etiquette sustaining members our question is about the expenses that come with being in the bridal party. Plus your most excellent feedback, etiquette salute and a postscript on email do's and don’t's.
Speaker 1: maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social goodness. See that's old fashioned,
Speaker 1: Watch how busy post and then post to act as host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person, real friendliness.
Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to awesome etiquette where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. On today's show, we take your questions on tipping for carry out, sharing public pool chairs, bringing toddlers to fancy restaurants and showing up late to a wedding
Speaker 1: for awesome etiquette says dating members. Our question of the week is about the expenses that come with being in the bridal party plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a postscript on email, dues and donuts. All that coming up
Speaker 1: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of Vermont Public radio and is proud to be produced in Burlington Vermont by the Emily Post Institute. I'm lizzie Post and I'm dan Post sending dude, you're going to be like on your etiquette game over the like Yeah like becoming like five days like you've got your
Speaker 1: going down to can we say the city boston
Speaker 1: and you don't just have like one arrangement where you're someone's guests, you have like 10 arrangements. Right? Am I correct? Yes and don't even ask me all the details because I don't know people who listen to this show will know that this is not my style but my lovely wife has
Speaker 1: organized planned a weekend in boston for us. We're going down for some business but we will visit family and friends
Speaker 1: and there are a lot of them that's also like a little bit different right? Because you're going down and visiting family and friends but with every conversation you have with them to set it up you and put you have to say things like just so you know we are here, we have this appointment meeting whatever you want to call it on this day at this time
Speaker 1: and then well and cousin so and so said that they'd like to see us now because they're not going to be here on the sunday but so and so is not going to be here on the saturday. So did and it seems like things are fitting into, was it like that this night at this house with these family members lunch the next day with those family members the night
Speaker 1: the next night with a new friend the next day stay in this difference and uncles and all the friends. I think there's some consistency along the way. It all adds up to almost four days. So since he's the three of you of the four of you now will be in boston right every once in a while I get looped in on a text. So someone from the city will respond and I'll be included. Very kind of you. Thank you
Speaker 1: is pizza and salad going to be okay for Anisha for dinner and I start to get a little glimpse into how much planning is going on, how much organizing is going on and you're right adding that layer of young Children into the mix. A lot of people were visiting will also have young Children, which is kind of delightful because fun. These are cousins and really good friends
Speaker 1: and some of the sources for the hand me downs that Anisha wears every day. So she shows up looking like their Children. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm really looking forward to it. It's going to be an awesome weekend. But there is a lot of etiquette going on, say there's a lot, a lot of juggling a lot of, let me just be flexible and a lot of appreciating my wife right now as I talk about it well. And here we are joking about all of the scheduling everything. But there's also a lot of looking forward to it. There's a lot of enthusiasm for each of these things and even that is something your energy levels to keep up for each visit when you see each new group and sometimes that can feel really draining. Other times it can feel really energizing because
Speaker 1: you aren't with the same people for three or four days straight. Each thing is, oh, and I get to see them and we'll only get to see them for this long. So yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: be there for it and it can be kind of both.
Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to the aquarium. Just an aquarium. So cool. And as I live vicariously through you, we've been breaking out nemo a little bit at a time. I'm trying to build some anticipation in the three year old escape. Exactly. Shall we escape to some questions? Let's get
Speaker 1: to it
Speaker 1: awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions. You can email them to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. Leave a voicemail or text at 80285 a kind that's 8028585463 Or reach us on social media on twitter. We are at Emily post inst on instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute and on facebook we are awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the show.
Speaker 1: Our first question today is called carry out courtesy and it comes via a voicemail. So we get to hear from our wonderful listener
Speaker 1: who is in Richmond
Speaker 2: Hi lizzie and dan. My name is Liz Bryant first. I thoroughly enjoy your podcast. I launched the business etiquette consultancy last year and I came across it and fell in love. I like listening to it as I get ready in the morning because it really starts my day on a positive note.
Speaker 2: My question is this, it seems like it used to be that restaurant tipping was for in health service, but not for carry out or to go orders
Speaker 2: more and more. Now I'm seeing a tip option on the credit card er seat and to me it seems wrong to put a line through it or to select the no tip option on the payment screen. So I do end up tipping for takeout, but I'm actually not sure about the real answer to this,
Speaker 2: should want to carry out and if so what is an appropriate amount.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for your help and all the best from Richmond
Speaker 1: Liz. Thank you so much for reaching out to us with this question. This is one that confounds a lot of people. Even my boy drew Brees got written up in the news years ago for this. He had a really large chinese takeout order and he didn't leave, you know, I think he left like a $3 tip or something on it.
Speaker 1: And I remember both defending him and saying it's also good to think about it.
Speaker 1: This is one of those funky little spots where take away and carry out or to go orders can vary in terms of how much they impact a restaurant. Some restaurants, it's really a very easy thing, it in fact they welcome it because it means
Speaker 1: less work serving tables all night, but still food getting cooked in money coming in. And so it's, it's,
Speaker 1: it's looked at differently by different establishments. It's also handled differently. Some places have curbside service where there's a dedicated server purely for this and they're coming out that I think does kind of amp you up into a higher like incentive to tip or encouragement to tip.
Speaker 1: But other places while people are getting your order ready, it is different from serving them for a full hour of their time and your time. And it is different. It's collecting things, it's making sure that the order is correct and that it's going to the right customer,
Speaker 1: but it is different from a sit down our 22 hour long meal. And so that's why it gets placed in the category of discretionary. There's so many different ways that you might say
Speaker 1: my order was really, really complicated and you guys are totally saving my caucus tonight because dinner burned and I need dinner for the dinner party. I'm throwing I like this because you hold the sauce and people are allergic or you know, and I oftentimes hate saying you have to tip more if you have an allergy or personal restriction because those just simply are a part of how you are able to eat in a way that works for your body. And I don't want people to hear our advice and think that you get somehow financially punished or that you owe more because you have restrictions either that you have to abide by or that you are choosing to abide by. So
Speaker 1: and turn that into your thinking a lot of discretionary decision making going on here. So dan, what would you think about when you, when you go up, when you say how am I going to choose to handle this carry out issue. So I'm starting with the most formal expectation sit down service if I
Speaker 1: except it requires a 20% tip so I don't need to hit that marker. I already know I'm below that. So now I've got my range 0 to 20 and
Speaker 1: for years we've talked about 10% being a reasonable amount to think about as a starting point when you're
Speaker 1: in that I'm not taking table service but I'm picking up or there's buffet service or some other type of service in this case pick up and
Speaker 1: I think that's a good jumping off point, it's about a half way, it's
Speaker 1: not the same kind of marker that that 20% is though you can work toward it, you could leave a couple dollars for a small order that's not a big burden.
Speaker 1: You could opt to go for a little more if someone is hiking up seven floors or getting to the end of your long unplowed driveway whatever. Or if you ordered a ton of food and that actually does then become a lot to collect and get together and make sure gets out the door. But for me I'm thinking it is a nice thing to do for all the reasons that you said. And I'm
Speaker 1: thinking of 10% as the amount that I'm going to reach for and then I'm going to work up towards that depending on what the situation is. Okay so that's a percentage tip and definitely I'm following the logic. What about if you went the dollar to route?
Speaker 1: You know I know a lot of people who their M. O. Is that on pretty much all takeout orders. If they're you know, just them or them and another person that they just throw down a dollar to want to take out order. I'm okay with that. Dollar doesn't go quite as far as it used to. So we used to say a dollar for this, a dollar for that and now we say oh a dollar or two or maybe five. Yeah
Speaker 1: cash is always appreciated. The best is the enemy of the good. I think doing a little, something is worthwhile. I think there are other things that make tipping successful I think being genuine and gracious and grateful when you offer a tip is a big part of it being
Speaker 1: delivered and received well and also honors the actual thing you're doing which is that gratuity coming from a place of gratitude. It's respectful, it's classy, it can be discreet, it doesn't need to be a big deal. The exchange of money isn't the
Speaker 1: production element here. The appreciation is what I think of as the production element. The point of emphasis in the exchange.
Speaker 1: There's one other thing I wanted to focus on here and that's the social expectation element. We know that's a big part of etiquette.
Speaker 1: So the question asked about that line on the receipt or the suggestion to tip when the tablet is turned around to face you, it says the thing on it and we've heard about this in a different way before. We've heard people say I feel pressured that that that that makes me feel a pressure to do it that I don't like. And what I like here is our question Nascar is saying, I feel that pressure but
Speaker 1: not in a negative way. I'm not thinking oh they shouldn't be pressuring me like that. I feel it more from my side of the equation, like it kind of nudges me to do it and I want to do it well and right and I just like that I like that there wasn't I like that there's an acknowledgement that that does
Speaker 1: the default of we're kind of expecting this or there's a place for this in our whole system does apply a little bit of pressure but that
Speaker 1: our question Askar isn't feeling that and saying oh they shouldn't be doing that to me, but they're saying okay, so I'm feeling that, how do I
Speaker 1: reconcile that in myself and to me that's such good etiquette. Okay, so what do you do with that then though? It's it's pressure, but you're feeling it and I'm glad Liz feels it in the way that says oh and now I'm more encouraged to leave a tip. I don't know that that happens with everybody does it.
Speaker 1: It's why I think it's worth spending some time on this answer. When we say 0 to 10%
Speaker 1: it really means 0 to 10%. There are times where you might not tip, it's counter service, you don't have the money, you're not feeling inspired, grateful, thankful, whatever it is,
Speaker 1: I try to not live in that place to too much. I think gratuity is an important way to support good service and I like to participate in that exchange, but you have the option, you can work from that zero to that 10% and
Speaker 1: you can feel comfortable making choices within that range and feel good about it and that's okay and it's up to you to make those choices. And that's one of the challenges of an increasingly
Speaker 1: complex and diverse, less formal world is very, very true. I think one of the final points I want to bring up on this topic is that moment where because Liz mentions the line, so she's seeing the tip line show up on the receipt. And a lot of our question Nascar's will say. So what do I do if I want to leave a cash tip though? Or if I just want to leave like
Speaker 1: leftover changes, there's some way I can acknowledge this and you can you can write cache on that tip line
Speaker 1: and then put the tip in the money jar or you know, leave it with the slip whichever way is more appropriate for this place. But a lot of people get really nervous that if they're not seen leaving cash that they're tip won't count or that someone will think that they are a jerk somehow. And so that's a moment of pressure
Speaker 1: where I try and encourage people don't worry about it. If you put the money in the jar and no one sees it, you know, you put the money in the jar and they're going to count their tips at the end of the night and
Speaker 1: you know, hopefully a lot of other people put the money in the jar to like I've worried, feel confident. I'm worried that writing down my typical get missed somehow, they won't see it, the card will get run and it takes a whole extra step for someone to enter in that tip amount. So
Speaker 1: different ways that pressure comes into play, right? Exactly. And I've asked myself should I point out
Speaker 1: that I wrote down a dollar about tips so they don't miss it. I've ended up deciding for myself that that's a little too much micromanaging. It's pointing at the tip a little more than I'm comfortable doing well. It's also saying that the people who manage these flips multiple of them and seek out those tips daily aren't paying attention enough to notice it. So I think it's good that you back off from worrying about pointing that one out. What I do do is make sure that I write very allegedly because I don't want there to be any confusion about whether that's a one or a two and I make my one sort of grand sometimes and they can look like too. So watch the penmanship write legibly. I feel like I'm in good shape. I'm sure that our listeners will be also
Speaker 1: a big thank you to Liz in Richmond for helping us all feel a little more comfortable in this moment. Everybody likes to eat. Of course each may have his own individual preference, but no matter whether it's a hot dog at the county fair
Speaker 1: or a full course dinner at the Ritz,
Speaker 1: there's no denying that people like to eat.
Speaker 1: Our next question is titled pool chair problems. Hi, lizzie and dan. A while ago I took my son and his friend to an indoor water park. Usually families lay their stuff on the tables and chairs and then off they go to enjoy the water.
Speaker 1: I needed one chair to sit poolside to watch my son and his friend. I grabbed one that didn't have anything on it.
Speaker 1: And that is when a lady came from another direction and said that is my chair and I need it back.
Speaker 1: I said no, I said your family isn't using it right now and I want to sit down. She said I have eight people. What am I supposed to do about lunch? It was about 10:15 a.m.
Speaker 1: I said I am sure you will figure it out.
Speaker 1: That is when she said well when they come back for lunch I am getting it back and I said yeah we will see about that.
Speaker 1: I would like to say that it wasn't a cabana that you had to reserve and pay for. I am positive, this is not the way you guys would have handled this situation. I know I am supposed to be considerate of others.
Speaker 1: There aren't enough chairs for everyone and it seems inconsiderate of people to take over spaces and then not use them most of the day.
Speaker 1: Can you help me see this situation in a different way? I want to continue to be a more considerate person and with your help, I feel like I am on my way. Warm regards Vicky. I think we have to give Vicki some real kudos here
Speaker 1: because you hear us talk all the time about self reflection on the show. And Vicky is definitely aware of the fact that the way she handled the situation and the way the other woman handled the situation that she doesn't think that this was good behavior, good etiquette necessarily.
Speaker 1: But she's willing to put that out there and to say and admit the conversation and very honestly tell us the things she said that probably weren't etiquette if we want to say that. But she's saying I have a real problem here and there are multiple perspectives on this and the venue
Speaker 1: isn't providing a solution in a way that will make every single person happy because they can't tell how many people are going to be at the pool at any given time. They only have the capacity to put in so many chair. You know, it's there's some interesting things at play here, but I really want to commend Vicky for being willing to put out a conversation that didn't necessarily have the best etiquette foot forward
Speaker 1: and to say I was a part of this and how could it have done better? Because I still want to go to the pool, enjoy my time, know how to interact and also not deal with people who are selfishly taking over the place. And I'm not saying that the other woman was, but that's the perspective I'm hearing here. You know,
Speaker 1: I had a similar, yea thought when I read this question because there is a real honesty and integrity to the way it's presented and that is a core tenet of good etiquette. I think there's something else about this question substantively that really resonates with me, which is that I think
Speaker 1: the basic information here is okay. I think there's a tonal question about the conversation that we're clearly going to address and talk about. But
Speaker 1: in a world where First come First serve is often a tenant to the way we organize socially public spaces, to the idea that we share resources in ways that work for everyone if something's not being used and it could really help or benefit someone. Oftentimes there's an accommodation made that
Speaker 1: allows for them to use that shared resource. That there are some things here that make a lot of sense in terms of the way we organize socially. Well,
Speaker 1: I do think there's some work here that we could do with the tone and the nature of the exchange. But I think that our question Askar is actually in pretty good shape in terms of
Speaker 1: what it was she was looking for and the way that that interaction substantively played out. So I'm looking at the language here
Speaker 1: and I'm seeing you get the kids in, you sit down, you're kind of as a parent, you're having that moment I'm imagining here. So parent tell me of like,
Speaker 1: okay, like we're here, we've got it all is going good and you just want to sit and there's a totally empty chair, nobody around it, no one's stuff is even near it. We think we're in pretty good said to just sit in that chair and then you hear that's my chair, I need it back
Speaker 1: and immediately what I'm hearing from this other person is no acknowledgement that this might be an accident.
Speaker 1: I'm hearing possession and claiming of an item that had no distinct personal belongings on it, allowing it to be claimed, you know, from a viewer's perspective skiing on that. So I want to just say that Vicki right off the bat is dealing with Whoa, okay. I looked at the situation, I thought this was kosher and it's not. And you are
Speaker 1: like, I'm reading that's my chair and I need it back as upsetting. I'm not hearing it in a nice tone, so I might not be giving a benefit of the doubt when I'm imagining it. But
Speaker 1: I would have my bristles up a little bit too.
Speaker 1: My first reaction that would probably be to say, oh, I'm so sorry, I didn't understand because there was nothing on it. You know, that might be something to just simply step one, explain why you ended up sitting in the chair. That was her chair. You know what I mean?
Speaker 1: And I think it's reasonable to also say sometimes people in groups
Speaker 1: come move in, say, alright, we're putting a backpack on this end of the movie. I'll and a coat on this end. And all of these ones in between or for the eight of us that are here together. And how would you know, unless you knew and you might miss that. So I do think you're right that a place to start with tone would be an acknowledging of that possibility. And that doesn't necessarily mean you cede any ground in terms of
Speaker 1: maybe you're still going to get to use this chair
Speaker 1: for now for your purposes or maybe even it's going to be your chair. But by
Speaker 1: making that little acknowledgement, you set a tone for the whole discussion. That I think would really change the nature of the exchange from that point on
Speaker 1: what I see next is
Speaker 1: that you respond with no. And that's a that's a point that we would suggest a correction for that. We say, oh, excuse me, I didn't realize. And that that would probably be a better way to handle this interaction from an etiquette standpoint.
Speaker 1: The next line you're giving this woman who's claiming the chair is your family isn't using it right now. And I want to sit down.
Speaker 1: That's not a bad line in any way. But I might try and soften it a little bit and say, oh, I noticed that no one had any bags or anything on it. It didn't seem like it was in use rather than use bring it back to its and sometimes pulling use out of a situation,
Speaker 1: helps to diffuse what's going on. Because now it's not you, me mind yours,
Speaker 1: it's it. And that just something gives people a little bit of space to absorb things. So you might have said something like, oh, I didn't realize I didn't see any bags on it, It didn't look like it was in use. Are you needing to use it right now? So you asked her a question and she could say, I have eight people for lunch.
Speaker 1: And you can then say, well it's 10 15, how about at 11 45? I go find a different spot. It seems like it's pretty crowded here today.
Speaker 1: We might have to do a little bit of sharing around the pool.
Speaker 1: And that, to me is even a little bit of a step too far because now I'm suggesting that I have some kind of perspective on the whole way that the pools should be run, even though it's a pretty well accepted perspective that
Speaker 1: pool tables and chairs are shared in a public pool space, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: But I think that countering her at that point when she's worried about lunch saying, oh, would it be all right if I sat here until
Speaker 1: 11 30 11 45 or when your kids start coming out of the pool, I can hop up and find another.
Speaker 1: And then I would express my perspective because not much of that has gotten to happen here, except for I didn't notice that you had claimed this chair, that was totally blank.
Speaker 1: And that's when I would say, I'm just so tired and I happen to really need a place to sit. Would you be willing to let me sit here?
Speaker 1: I recognize that a lot of the language I'm giving right now is acting as if this other person does have ownership of the chair.
Speaker 1: Sometimes it works really well in public spaces to recognize that
Speaker 1: perception of first come first serve. You clearly are looking at it like it's blank and open. I should be able to sit here and I frankly Vicky, I agree with you. I don't love how this other person has handled. I see this other person in a moment of panic thinking what am I going to do an hour and a half from now, two hours from now when all the kids are here and I've got eight of them
Speaker 1: and there's no space and I don't know where we're going to serve anything. So I'm feeling panic from the other
Speaker 1: and we rushed through the door and we claimed our spot and now someone's trying to take it. I got it and the more that I can recognize where that other parent might might be coming from
Speaker 1: and say,
Speaker 1: oh I could understand how that would be stressful, but I also am a parent and I want a seat and the seat is available now, I'm not going to need it all day. Can we make a way to work this out? And I think that's what you want to be getting too. So when you, when you ask, can you help me see it differently? I don't know if I can help you see it differently, but we might be able to help you adjust the tone
Speaker 1: and the structure of the way you approach a situation like this so that you get the outcome you want.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. And I feel like you worked your way to the sample script, master of sample scripts right there
Speaker 1: and it's at this point in the conversation where things totally break down, I'm sure you're going to figure it out. Well when you come back for lunch, I'm getting it, that's going to be me figuring it out. Oh yeah, well we'll see about that at this point. It's tit for tat, it's confrontational, it's surround can stand stronger.
Speaker 1: It's appropriately sort of managed, confrontational, You're not cussing at each other, it doesn't
Speaker 1: feel like you're about to come to blows, but this is definitely, this is like too forthright people who met each other in a moment, as opposed to like more of a, like a, you know, a forthright and like, I don't want to say a doormat, but you know, like someone who's just going to be like, oh no, big deal, like whatever. Like, I think you can help avoid that by
Speaker 1: earlier on doing that work that lizzie is talking about just trying to figure out where they're coming from and I know how fast that all happens, you don't know ahead of time, that she's going to say the crux of the issue for her is a lunch that's an hour and a half down the road, and that that time is going to provide the compromise that could work for everyone. You just can't anticipate that
Speaker 1: at the beginning. But what you can anticipate is that a cooperative attitude is going to be more likely to create the space to find those compromises, to allow the discovery of that hour and a half where you could maybe use this chair without bothering her or anybody.
Speaker 1: So that's the I guess the etiquette answer is that there is an approach and and
Speaker 1: you can't go six steps down the line, but step one, step two, step three, and then you keep your wits about you and you keep breathing deep.
Speaker 1: You remind yourself that there's probably other chairs around. If you have to
Speaker 1: back off. If you don't like the way the whole conversations going, and it matters more to you, to maintain your integrity in the moment than to get that chair,
Speaker 1: then find, yeah, find a different spot, sit on the edge of the pool, do what you need to do until the chair freeze up
Speaker 1: Vicky. We certainly hope that this helps. It is not easy to deal with confrontation from a stranger
Speaker 1: and being able to handle those situations with a little bit of curiosity and a little bit of patients and a whole lot of
Speaker 1: friendly. We can make this work tone is definitely going to get you there in the future. Thank you so much for writing in and thank you so much for being so self reflective.
Speaker 2: Whether
Speaker 1: or not he wins in the swimming meet. He has proved to himself and to others that he is not a coward.
Speaker 1: Well, we all have little fears which hamper us. We should take a tip from bill.
Speaker 1: Our lives can be richer, happier if we overcome our fear.
Speaker 1: Our next question is about tables for toddlers, lizzie and dan. I just listened to your podcast in which you discussed whether or not parents of toddlers dining in a restaurant should offer to clean up after themselves. I would love to hear you discuss points of etiquette around people bringing small Children to restaurants in general.
Speaker 1: Do you think they should restrict themselves to fast food or fast casual restaurants like Olive garden or T. G. I Fridays
Speaker 1: if they come to fine dining restaurants, is there a point at which they are disruptive and should remove themselves? Should they restrict themselves to the earliest hours available? I feel like I should be able to expect a certain ambiance in a restaurant serving chef prepared meals and expensive bottles of wine after seven p.m. Or so.
Speaker 1: Am I just a cranky middle aged person without Children or is my point of view valid?
Speaker 1: I also don't feel we're doing the child a service.
Speaker 1: She would probably rather eat nuggets at Mcdonald's at five rather than a fancy meal at eight when she should be in bed.
Speaker 1: The parents who probably just want a night out end up getting their food wrapped as they chase their kids around the restaurant. I would love to hear your thoughts. Thanks for the great podcast. Robin Robin. You are not a cranky middle aged person without Children who is upset about something that's completely ridiculous. And I totally, when we were reading that had to retake it because I was like, hey, that's me,
Speaker 1: 37 no Children. I want my quiet dinner.
Speaker 1: It's so understandable and everyone's point of view is valid. That's kind of the point. We want to respect everyone. And this is such a good reminder that restaurants are public places and that because their public places, their shared and
Speaker 1: everyone who is sharing those spaces deserves consideration, respect and honesty.
Speaker 1: The restaurant, the people who are dining there, the parents, the Children and the servers. I love the idea of reasonable expectations for Children because it works for everyone.
Speaker 1: It's so not fair to bring a toddler to a meal that's going to last longer than you could ever reasonably expect a toddler to sit quietly. It just doesn't make sense 100%
Speaker 1: and it doesn't make sense for the parents. It doesn't make sense for the child. It doesn't make sense for the servers, the establishment, the other people dining there, the chef who's working hard to make food that
Speaker 1: ends up being ignored by parents who didn't care of kids or kids that aren't treating it or isn't able to be appreciated because the birth at the next table is listening to a screaming baby or watching parents have a hard time managing an unruly child.
Speaker 1: I am sympathetic to this situation and I do think that there are guidelines. I do think that a lot of the things suggested in this question help choose more informal family style restaurants for those early exposure experiences that are so important for kids
Speaker 1: choose times of the day that are earlier, It works much better for bedtime. As our question asked her, as Robin points out,
Speaker 1: just like it works better for other people dining who are thinking of a later evening meal is something that maybe has a little more formality, a little more elegant, a little more of an event experience. And
Speaker 1: we talk all the time on this show about how restaurants work hard to create certain atmospheres, a certain ambiance, how cell phones can be disruptive to that. We're hearing more and more restaurants banned cell phones like this is people do care about the ambiance. It's something that makes eating out a pleasure for many, many people. It's something that
Speaker 1: restaurants take pride in and participating in that experience and not disrupting that as part of
Speaker 1: being a good guest, being a good customer and there is etiquette for being a good customer and you can sympathize with the parents who just don't want to cook the food that night, they want to get out to a restaurant, they want to have a nice night,
Speaker 1: they're feeling sick of all of the olive gardens and Mcdonald's or you know, out of Annie's, out of the freezer or whatever it is, they're burnt out. And so they are looking for some solution and I feel for those parents in that moment and we still encourage to really think about time and place, think about setting up
Speaker 1: your family and your, those early exposure moments for success, as dan said and
Speaker 1: typically bringing a toddler out to a later in the evening meal at a fancy restaurant doesn't set anybody up for success.
Speaker 1: There are times and places where you can try it
Speaker 1: and there are times and places you should try it a little bit. But we always recommend that at the first sign of things not kind of going well or of fidgeting, really becoming more of the thing you're focused on than the meal, then it's time to pack everything up and go and take the kid home and call it a success
Speaker 1: because you got out for 20 minutes, half an hour, maybe it lasted 45 minutes. Whatever it was. I do want to encourage parents that you know, you do try but you recognize when the trying isn't working anymore.
Speaker 1: Robin, there's not much that you can do in the moment. And that's one of the harder things about this question is that this isn't something like, you know, leaning over and saying, could you keep your kid down? We don't recommend that scowling making them even more pressured doesn't help either
Speaker 1: being sympathetic when you can and saying, okay, this was the night that my night out didn't go well. You know, it happens sometimes staying patient, staying, understanding is your job in those situations where something doesn't go according to plan. And I think we could all safely assume, although we try not to assume too much on this show that a parent dealing with an unruly child in a restaurant is probably something they weren't anticipating or planning on. And you hold your judgment on
Speaker 1: how they got themselves into that situation because it doesn't help the situation in that moment,
Speaker 1: robert. This is such a rich topic and we hope that our answer has addressed some of the issues that you've talked about. I'm sure it's going to come up again. But in the meantime I hope that you're able to enjoy many meals out. Uninterrupted. I need you to help me with my manners. No. Larry, You don't need me anymore.
Speaker 1: You can learn good manners yourself by watching the good manners of others.
Speaker 2: Mhm.
Speaker 1: Our next question is titled missed the marriage.
Speaker 2: Hello. My name is lacey. I'm from California and I had a wedding conundrum question My husband and I were going to a reading last weekend and we were running late and by late, I mean
Speaker 2: over an hour late to the wedding and I was mortified and did not want to be walking in when everyone was sitting down to dinner when they were doing wedding speeches, which is what time about? I thought we would be arriving and we did not go to the wedding. He is very upset that we did not go to the wedding. I thought it was rude
Speaker 2: to interrupt
Speaker 2: wedding speeches and first dances because the attention should be on the bride. Was I right or was I wrong?
Speaker 2: I just wanted everyone to know how late is too late to arrive the wedding. Thanks, I love the show.
Speaker 1: Oh, lacey lacey lacey. I just want to give you a giant hug and say, I feel your pain because
Speaker 1: these are those moments that are just so tough. You got a 50 50 shot of getting this right.
Speaker 1: And is it worse to interrupt? Is it worse to not show up? I don't know what to do.
Speaker 1: And all of the reasons that you listed are what I have been noticing as a trend in our culture
Speaker 1: of social insecurity
Speaker 1: and, and it's nothing new just so, you know, this is not like a phenomenon either, but it's
Speaker 1: it's walking into a place being worried about everything being and this is like whether you're meeting a friend at a place you've never been to before, whether you're meeting up in an open downtown, I meet so many people who are like,
Speaker 1: oh, I just don't want to walk in alone, I just don't want to be noticed, is not doing what I'm supposed to be doing.
Speaker 1: It's this fear that you're going to be noticed and here you've got someone else's big day where as you correctly state, taking attention away from that big day is generally considered fairly rude and so you're sitting here going, no, no, no, I know that this is one of those times where I really can
Speaker 1: like be noticed. Make it Yeah, exactly. All of those things, I feel your pressure so much
Speaker 1: and I hope that you can just stay strong. As I say, what's coming next? Which is staying would have been perfectly fine. Going to that wedding an hour late, really would have been fine. You were right to think be careful about the timing of when I walk in. If it's during a speech, you don't run all the way up to the bride and say, I'm so sorry, we're so late. I don't think you would have done that anyway,
Speaker 1: but you don't do that. But you can come in quietly, find a server to help you find your seat, find or someone that you know to help you find your seat or quietly wait till speeches are finished to then go find your seat. You pick up the meal wherever it is.
Speaker 1: Um They may offer to let you eat the other courses. You can choose whether to take them up on that or whether to just jump in at whatever course there on
Speaker 1: you apologize when you get the moment to, but you don't have to go and make it. The very first thing you do. In fact, it might be 20 minutes before the bride and groom even realize that you arrived just so you know some brides and grooms don't even get to talk to everyone at their wedding. So it's also like a not a terrible event to try to sneak into. You know, I just don't want you to feel bad about having made the decision that you did.
Speaker 1: I think that you can easily write a note of apology to the bride and groom and tell them that you were so sorry. At the point that you were going to be an hour late, you had to make the tough call of whether to go or not go and you just want to say you're so sorry that you didn't go
Speaker 1: and that you you wish you could have found the appropriate way to enter and not be an interruption.
Speaker 1: The only thing I have to add to that particular decision moment is that you always want to have in your mind. The idea that your absence is also something that
Speaker 1: might create a certain
Speaker 1: impression or someone might take notice of that. In some ways the late arrival could be distracting but guests that just aren't there, The empty seats at the table or the oh I was so thinking I'd see Aunt Lacey here and I didn't is also something we say on the show that the question mark is the most difficult thing for a host to manage on a guest list.
Speaker 1: Yes is our okay. Those are okay. Question marks are really difficult and when you become that question mark, there's a
Speaker 1: a certain distraction that comes along with that as well.
Speaker 1: We totally understand your thinking and hope that this answer helps reach some accord between you and your husband. The other thing that I wanted to say for everyone out there in response to your question of how late is too late to arrive to a wedding. In some ways, our answer is saying it's it's never too late, make your best effort get their things happen.
Speaker 1: And this is why we so often give the advice of
Speaker 1: plan ahead timing wise. And when it's something like a wedding or a job interview, a really important moment that you plan ridiculously long buffer zones in terms of if there's traffic on the five or whatever it is,
Speaker 1: it's it's important to try to plan for that. But when you can't and when all the gremlins get you,
Speaker 1: then you just do your best to show up, make your apology but
Speaker 1: but try to show up lacey thank you for this question and we hope that the next wedding goes much more smoothly.
Speaker 1: Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463 You can reach us on social media on twitter. We are at Emily Post install on instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute
Speaker 1: on facebook. We are awesome etiquette.
Speaker 1: Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your posts so that we know you watch your question comment or feedback on the show.
Speaker 1: If you love awesome etiquette, consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette.
Speaker 1: You'll get an ads free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content plus you'll feel great knowing you can help keep awesome etiquette alive. It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer and the topics we cover
Speaker 1: and today we hear from Heidi who has a very long piece of feedback that is very thoughtful. Hi lizzie and dan, I wanted to make a comment about an episode from a while ago. It was the episode when a person was planning a party and their friends replied that they would be there with their very little baby.
Speaker 1: I want to tell you why, I think this is okay and why other people should try to be okay with it.
Speaker 1: Little babies that are just born need to be close to their mothers, especially if they are breastfeeding. I am a mother to four kids in those first few months. My babies are like velcro to me, I typically wore my babies in a sling. They were truly a physical extension of me
Speaker 1: when and if we were separated for an extended bit of time, both me and baby were in distress. We were both more at peace when we were together.
Speaker 1: I learned that there was an unspoken rule during this time that for most part, babies in arms were considered okay at almost any public event or outing. Now, not everyone practices attachment parenting and some parents want or need a physical break from baby and I think that is okay,
Speaker 1: but for those that have the need and desire to keep their baby in arms close,
Speaker 1: it is very welcoming for others to accept them. I fondly remember attending board meetings, formal dinners, a wedding, and even a fun New Year's Eve, adult party wearing my tiny babies on me.
Speaker 1: Now. I will also add this. I firmly believe that this is a brief period of time.
Speaker 1: By 4 to 6 months, babies are starting to move and are in a different place and typically, even the most attached mothers can be separated for a bit of time.
Speaker 1: This is a personal decision, but the general rule I came to understand is that when the baby is no longer something you can carry in your arms, it is time to leave baby home.
Speaker 1: We are great believers and kids free events. We often get a sitter for our kids so we could enjoy adult company alone. But little babies and arms are different. Sometimes it is hard for others to understand this until they have a baby themselves, but I would encourage everyone to try to be more open and welcoming to moms with little babies both in the workplace and socially,
Speaker 1: I also think it's fine and perfectly appropriate to say on an invitation adults only, but babies in arms welcome. This is a term that is understood in parenting circles. I hope this helps listeners embrace little babies in arms with an open attitude and realize they are truly in a different category than other kids.
Speaker 1: Thanks a seasoned mom who has been there four times now,
Speaker 1: Some really, really good perspective here about what it's like to be the mom in that situation. What it's like to think about yourself as now a mom with an attachment. You know what I mean? And also just leaving room for there to be events where your adults only
Speaker 1: where no, it's not going to be a big deal if the baby is here or where boy, you know, it's a kid event and we're going to have kids doing all the things that kids do during an event where kids are present.
Speaker 1: I like this idea of adding a category. We're not saying don't have no kid events were not saying everything kids should be welcome. But the idea that there is this class. This category when Children are very first born, when you're dealing with infants and newborns where
Speaker 1: they really are
Speaker 1: smaller, they sleep a lot and like in a carrier there might be some room for there to be some accommodations around. No kids parties where this would work,
Speaker 1: seasoned mom. Thank you for the perspective and thank you for sharing it with us. And thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please keep them coming. You can send your feedback or update two awesome etiquette at Emily Post com.
Speaker 1: Or leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 K. I. N. D. That's 8028585463
Speaker 1: It's time for our postscript segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette and today we are continuing on our countdown of our top 10 most searched content from Emily Post dot com. And the number seven is drum roll. Please email dozen. Donuts
Speaker 1: dan. Because you are a wonderful business etiquette
Speaker 1: seminar presenter extraordinaire. Tell us what are you here in the world of business, emails does and don't just email does and don't the evil supervillain tapping my fingers. Mr Burns right totally get to dive into my favorite topic.
Speaker 1: I've been wondering when we were going to get a business etiquette question or or article in our top 10. It didn't take long and I'm not surprised that it's about email etiquette. This is one of the most requested topics when we do communication, manners, behaviors for work and for professionals.
Speaker 1: Second only, I would say to etiquette for the smartphone emails are the currency of business communication. They are the most common is the most standard way that people communicate in business and it really matters how you manage them, how you communicate via email.
Speaker 1: So let's talk a little bit about email etiquette. Okay,
Speaker 1: first thing, this is the written word.
Speaker 1: There are limits. Well, the written word, this is heavy. Yes. And the same traditional courtesies that have applied to the written word for hundreds of years, maybe thousands of years. I don't know. I can't date them quite back that far. But there is limitation to the written word. There is a real limitation to what can be communicated with writing
Speaker 1: when you're not face to face with someone, when you don't hear the tone of their voice, when you don't see the twinkle in their eye, the smile on their lips, you just don't have as much information about what they're trying to communicate. And you want to remind yourself of that. You want to think about that. So you want to communicate clearly, You want to write in complete sentences. You want to use proper grammar and do you want to spell things correctly because anything that you can do
Speaker 1: that's going to make that written communication easier to understand is going to work to your advantage. You may think we live in a world where even long established publications like the new york Times have typos and them regularly online and
Speaker 1: it's really easy to be in that place of casual communication because
Speaker 1: we now interact via text and I don't mean texting but through text on a screen more than well. Obviously at any other point in history because we have screens for that long, it's so incredibly a part of our communication style
Speaker 1: that of course we would find shorthand quick, easy ways. Of course we would start to self edit and edit for other people. I mean I don't know about you all
Speaker 1: but my auto correct is going nuts lately. The word good is now officially hood in my face. It's like, no, no, nothing is coming out right. Even when I type it right. Lotto correct is something that's not right. And so there are so many ways in which mistakes happen in our writing that it is very, very easy for us to
Speaker 1: ignore our own.
Speaker 1: We're used to seeing them in other people's work, but we don't actually ignore it in other people's work. And that's why it's so important with these emails to make sure that you take care and to not just take the casual shortcut route unless you have that kind of report dan. And I at this point in our business emailing have that kind of report. But I'll tell you
Speaker 1: the emails that go out the door, especially to a client that we've only known for a couple of email exchanges or something like that. Those get read out loud repeatedly
Speaker 1: and they often get put on hold so that we then go back in time. There's an extreme amount of care we take with a lot of those. You're absolutely right. You proof free, both for mistakes but also for tone.
Speaker 1: That reading something back out loud to yourself is a great way to hear it too. Not just check for spelling and grammar, but also to check for the feel of the communication.
Speaker 1: Sometimes we suggest imagining the person that you're writing to being in the room with you imagine them reading it. Imagine that as you read it, you're reading it to them. That's one way to start to build in some of that personal accountability.
Speaker 1: This might sound like a bit of a reach but just go with me here for a second. Maybe even picture a third person in the room with you. Imagine your mother or your supervisor, someone who you feel some accountability to also hearing this exchange because that'll take you out of the
Speaker 1: the particulars of that relationship. Whatever it is, whether it's really good, whether you feel great about it or whether it feels a little awkward or you're not feeling so good about it
Speaker 1: and introduce that that third eye that really can level things and and help you see things that you otherwise wouldn't.
Speaker 1: Other little detail things to mention. Of course be careful with two and subject lines. There's an emerging courtesy around tagging information. Well both so that people know what's coming in but also so they can sort it and find it later. If it's something that matters to them.
Speaker 1: Be really careful and appropriate with your use of the B. C. C. And the C. C. Don't include people don't see see people that wouldn't want to be included. Don't blind carbon copy or hide other people who are part of communication for reasons that aren't
Speaker 1: upright and straight forward. Right. A mailing where you're sending basically a form letter out to a lot of people, it's going to be expected. A BCC is on that and that's okay.
Speaker 1: You can kind of tell when that's come in. But if dan and I are both emailing somebody else and I don't tell them that our lawyer is Bc seed on this or something like that. That's where you start getting into. Or you know, if if two co workers are emailing and one of them has also BCC, the supervisor so that the other one can get thrown under the bus a little bit like it's, that's what we're looking to avoid. Absolutely. I just mentioned in an offhand way there's a courtesy to not spamming people today. So that's both with CCS and with the basic body and content of the email that you're really careful about how you ask for people's attention.
Speaker 1: In terms of the structure of the email itself, salutations and closings are still really important. It really matters that you address someone's humanity at the start of an email exchange with my very close cousin lizzie post.
Speaker 1: An LP comma return return is often enough. I've addressed the humanity of the person I'm talking with. Just the initials and
Speaker 1: all of a sudden the next thing that I say isn't a demand. It's not like I'm inserting myself into someone's mind. Some people think it's the reason that texting feels so intimate is that there's no entrance or exit from the conversation,
Speaker 1: its perpetual it's ongoing. It's ever present and it just shows up. You want to give people a chance to enter and leave. An exchange. And salutations and closings are a great way to do that, escalating up a scale of formality.
Speaker 1: Someone's initials, someone's name, a greeting like greetings or good morning or hello in their name or high in their name or
Speaker 1: more formally their title and their name. Or
Speaker 1: casually. Hey, exactly. There are a lot of horses according to my grandmother, but better for cows, pigs would eat it, but they don't know how I love it. Closing letters or emails sincerely is the most formal. You're not going to use that most of the time. But best regards regards all the best, best in social correspondents, warmly affectionately, yours truly with love.
Speaker 1: Don't necessarily try those for business. Sorry, you didn't mean to laugh that. Want to catch me though.
Speaker 1: My final tip for business, email communication is keep it brief. If you notice an email getting a lot longer than say three written paragraphs, if those three written paragraphs start to get beefy,
Speaker 1: start to ask yourself what am I communicating here? Am I sticking to information or is there a lot of why is there a lot of emotional explaining going on or a lot of detailed explaining that
Speaker 1: I could do better by picking up the phone or visiting someone in person.
Speaker 1: Maybe that answer is yes, then do that. If it's important that you have all this included and part of a record and in an email then
Speaker 1: reread for tone, check your
Speaker 1: spelling grammar dot your I's cross your teas and use email the way you should. So we've leaned pretty heavily on the business side of this because that's what we get asked about most. But there is also a family and social emailing that happens whether that's
Speaker 1: invitations being sent, whether it's announcements going out are
Speaker 1: post family and my coward family both go through different iterations of who's on what mail, you know, emails and things like that and what types of announcements get sent for social emails. The biggest tip I have is reply. You reminded me when you talked about email invitations, the R. S. V. P.
Speaker 1: Is still important. You apply to any invitation in the medium that the invitation indicates and sometimes there's specific direction about that. If there's not usually that's in the form that the invitation arrives, we get invited to things via email all the time.
Speaker 1: Send replies to people what is a timely reply? Try to get it back to people in 24 hours a day. Turnaround on email is, is the kind of generally accepted window. It's not always possible sooner is better. People love quick replies. It really, it's a great way to show your on it and that you are invested sooner is better and in business. It's funny because that's one where dan and I are often saying to each other, wait, I sent that email on monday and it's friday and I haven't heard back yet, like when should I nudge again? And that nudge often comes, you know, after a full week has passed socially. I think those nudges can come a little quicker. I could also make the argument for them going a little slower.
Speaker 1: But I do think you're right when you see whether it's an invitation or whether it's just a connecting point or a conversation that's being started. Timely reply in your social world is important. Some of the other things are, it's really important to take the temperature of your friends and family on how they feel about things like big group emails passing around that funny meme,
Speaker 1: things like that. We kind of have other spaces that we now do that in more so chain emails, you know that funny email that's been passed everywhere. We kind of think of those as a little passe at this point and it's not considered the best way to get that information out there. That being said, some people don't have social accounts and so that's what happens. And
Speaker 1: just try to take the temperature of your friends and family and make sure that you're really only emailing those kinds of things to people who want to be receiving
Speaker 1: social emails. That way, the final tip is to remember to separate your social and business if you need to. And that is something to really remember. Oftentimes we, if we own our own business is our business account ends up being our social account and that can be wonderful and easy. It can also mean a lot of extra emailing on business time or you just want to be careful. Um, and so just be aware of that really try to reach people at the email address that's most appropriate for the content that you're sending.
Speaker 1: This post script could become several post grips. This postscript could become several shows. Book communication is so important and you've told us that by how often you ask that question at Emily Post dot com.
Speaker 1: Stay tuned. Next week's postscript. We will be moving on to the sixth most searched article on Emily Post which is addressing wedding invitations. And I'm sure no one has any interest. No, no, no. And I'm sure it won't at all be be a long segment. No, we couldn't possibly make a year's worth of content out of that sample scripts at the ready.
Speaker 1: But I wish I could go outdoors again. I like to go around with the mailman all day
Speaker 1: all day. Glenn,
Speaker 1: the mailman has a long day.
Speaker 2: What?
Speaker 1: Mm
Speaker 1: We like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world and that can come in so many forms. Today we hear from L in Ontario. Hi lizzie and dan, I love your show. I look forward to it. Every week.
Speaker 1: I am up in Milton Ontario and we too are experiencing the snow and cold weather.
Speaker 1: I have so many questions to ask and don't know where to start. However, I think right now I want to tell you how proud I am of my son.
Speaker 1: My son is in grade five and they were having a Bay Blade tournament at school. For those of you who don't know what a Bay Blade is in simple terms. It's a fancy top that you wind up.
Speaker 1: Two people throw there. Bay Blade in the stadium and whoever is the last one standing wins
Speaker 1: during the challenge, one of his friends forgot to bring his and my son offered to lend one of his while his friend was playing with it. A piece of it broke off. His friend was devastated and was in tears. My son's response was to let him know that it was no big deal.
Speaker 1: The thing was, I had no idea about all of this. I received a call from my son's teacher and she retold the story to me. She was impressed that he chose to share as well as his positive reaction. When she asked him where he learned to be so compassionate. He said from his mom and dad that just brought tears to my eyes.
Speaker 1: I have had my challenges with this son this past year and so to hear something, this positive was very amazing. We and every parent try to instill values in our Children and we don't always see it, but you never know how much they are taking in an absorbing.
Speaker 1: He doesn't always show this much compassion to his siblings, but I know he has it in him and I love that he is showing it to the world. My etiquette salute goes to my son May. He always stayed this positive. Thank you for reading And I am liking the new Patreon site, L Oh, I love it.
Speaker 1: We're so glad that you like the new patriot side and I'm so glad you said this salute lucy and I both teared up a little bit. We both welled up as we read this. There's something about um
Speaker 1: that connection and being affirmed in that connection that you have with your son that really is communicated well here. And thank you for sharing that with all of us. Thank you for listening And thank you to everyone who sent us something. Especially thank you to those who support us on Patreon. Come join us over there.
Speaker 1: Please connect with the show, share the show with friends, family, whoever you think might enjoy a little awesome etiquette in their lives. You can send us questions, feedback and salutes by email to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a message or text at 80285 A kind that's 8028585463 on twitter. We are at Emily Post inst on instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette as well as the Emily Post Institute. Please do consider becoming a sustaining member. You can find out more about this by visiting patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette. You can also subscribe to the ads version of our show on itunes or your favorite podcast app and please consider leaving us a review and a big shout out dollar Spotify listeners. You are climbing in the ranks as a platform of choice for the 80 community. Thank you.
Speaker 1: Our show is edited by Chris Albertine, an assistant produced by Brigitte, Dowd. Thanks Kris and Brigitte.
Speaker 1: Mhm.