Episode 293 - Postponed
In this episode of Awesome Etiquette
Welcome to Awesome Etiquette, where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. On today’s show Dan and Lizzie take your questions on catty coworkers, turning down baby showers due to tradition, changing your RSVP for a postponed wedding and donations for the deceased. For Awesome Etiquette sustaining members our bonus question is about talking to your partner about poor table manners. Plus your most excellent feedback, etiquette salute and a postscript on dressing rooms of old from Emily Post’s 1922 edition of etiquette.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social goodness. See, that's old fashioned.
Speaker 2: Watch how busy post. And they're supposed to act as host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person, real friendliness.
Speaker 2: Hello
Speaker 1: and welcome to
Speaker 2: awesome etiquette, where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty.
Speaker 1: On today's show, we take your questions on caddy co workers turning down baby showers due to tradition, changing your R S v p for a postponed wedding and donations
Speaker 2: for the deceased.
Speaker 2: For awesome etiquette sustaining members are question is about talking to your partner about poor table manners,
Speaker 1: plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a postscript segment on dressing rooms of old from Emily Post's 1922 edition of
Speaker 2: Etiquette.
Speaker 2: All that coming up?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Mm
Speaker 2: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute.
Speaker 1: I'm Lizzie Post
Speaker 2: and I'm Dan Post Sending
Speaker 2: LP. You've been doing a ton of media.
Speaker 1: That is true. We've had a lot of media requests in the past few days, like
Speaker 2: a ton. We started to feel it coming last week, and it didn't stop.
Speaker 1: It's true, and that's always a real gift for us, so we're always grateful for it. But it does kind of have that, like drop everything and schedule and prepare and figure it out and hop on that phone or that video conference a lot more often to do it. But we've been hearing from all kinds of folks
Speaker 1: because we're not going and doing shows live. It's always a question as to whether the content that we end up engaging with full air or not.
Speaker 1: But we've talked with so far Good Morning America. We have an interview scheduled with the online. I think it's ABC News Live or ABC Live News. You and I think of each done a couple interviews with CBC Radio, but The New York Times, The New Yorker, I feel like it's and then a whole ton of other other spots, too.
Speaker 1: But so many people asking so many questions, just like our audience.
Speaker 1: The biggest one so far has been how do we handle Zoom work calls, especially because, you know so any kind of big group work calls specifically and what's appropriate for how you look, how your space looks, whether or not your kids or pets are are making it into the shot.
Speaker 1: You know how you balance the one room in the house. That's the quiet room when you've got four roommates like just everybody's having the same questions.
Speaker 1: Um, how do we interact in space is how do we interact in the outdoor spaces that people are struggling with exercising and things like that? So this was kind of I feel like the past two weeks have been the two weeks. We're kind of the
Speaker 1: the realities of how people were handling the social side of this really set in for people like, Wow, I'm frustrated in these places and I'm really seeing success and even encouraged in these places, So
Speaker 2: that's a lot of the conversations
Speaker 1: we're having. So I have to
Speaker 2: ask, Are you happy with your contributions to this conversation, or do you feel like you have something to offer?
Speaker 1: That's such a such a loaded question? I feel like are you happy with your own work? I do think that the Emily Post Institute has
Speaker 1: perspective to contribute just the same way. When we answer questions on this show, people are seeking that kind of consideration, respect and honesty. Angle and Dan, As you know, you and I spend a lot of time just observing and reflecting and keeping a finger on the pulse of, you know, American communities and and how how we feel and how we react and what we're seeing.
Speaker 1: Just the same way we did it recently with the title of Miss and Mrs and Being Mrs. But keeping your maiden name to indicate that you're married. But you chose to keep your maiden name being a popular change that we're seeing happen.
Speaker 1: It's it's the same here, but it's just happening quickly. It's happening with a lot of fear and confusion in some places, and it's also happening with a lot of gratitude and a lot of awareness and others. So I think that those are all themes that we talk about a lot on the show and a lot in our work,
Speaker 1: um, in our books. And so it's I'm really grateful that we get the opportunity to then share that with a with a much wider audience, Um, and for me, on a very personal level. Actually talking with these reporters and these producers and these anchors each day and each week, every single conversation it starts out with, kind of like a check in of of where you at. How are things in your area?
Speaker 1: And it's actually for me. I've been so grateful to get that opportunity to check in with people directly to hear from people that
Speaker 1: you know don't just live in my neighborhood or in my family or social circle to find out kind of what, what? The finger on the pulse of other communities right now are you know, talk to a woman who is so grateful that she and her best friend had just moved in together before the lockdown started, and they are fortunate enough to have a rooftop terrace.
Speaker 1: And she said she's used to working from home. So for her, it felt really mild. Whereas I checked in with someone else who
Speaker 1: was really struggling with their best friends, parent had passed away, and the inability to connect during a time of grieving was really just, um, upsetting. And so you you see all different angles right now, but the for me, I am really glad that we get the opportunity
Speaker 1: to talk to different news outlets about different conversations, both kind of the more serious and the more light hearted or experiential. Lena.
Speaker 2: I'm certainly
Speaker 1: glad you're out there
Speaker 2: and doing it. There's a question that I've heard come up a lot. Well, that's starting to emerge. I should say when people say, Well, when can we go back? When can we return? And the language I've been shifting in my head is that I don't think we're ever going to go back
Speaker 2: or return to sort of something that was. But I will definitely move forward and through, and there will be new things that emerge that will be closer to what we experienced before. And
Speaker 2: when I think about the future being something that's new and different. I want people engaged in that conversation who are thoughtful, caring, considerate, respectful, honest and we do have a lot of choices to make, and we're making them quickly, and I think that's going to keep happening and
Speaker 2: I'm glad that people are reaching out
Speaker 2: to get your and our advice on this, so thank you for for diving in
Speaker 1: and doing it.
Speaker 1: You know that idea of a new normal? Um, I think a lot of people it makes them very nervous and very uncomfortable. And so when I am talking to the press, we also try to remember kind of what's going to feel consistent and also what's going to change slowly as we get to that new normal. And
Speaker 1: right now, one of the big things we do talk about is that safety is driving our behavior right now,
Speaker 1: and that's an important thing to remember. And so when you're trying to figure out what things will look like, just think that safety will probably be what determines that. So, um, we just kind of have to take it day by day and see what the different, you know, restrictions and safety measures. We have to work with our and that's how we then figure out how we interact and in what spaces and in what ways that really
Speaker 1: deliver those principles of consideration, respect and honesty,
Speaker 2: because there's something else that I take a lot of comfort in around all of
Speaker 1: this, and that's
Speaker 2: that everybody is going through it together, and you mentioned that the baseline now is safety and
Speaker 2: we all share that baseline in some way, and in some ways that's incredibly unifying. I was reflecting as you were talking about some of the different people you speak with and how you get a sense of how different people are navigating this on some of the international trainers that I work with. And
Speaker 2: I found myself really looking forward to calls with my trainers in Prague or Australia or
Speaker 2: other parts of the world. And it's amazing to me the sense of community that comes through those conversations, that it doesn't matter who I'm talking to, where they are in the world. Everybody is dealing with this in some form or another, and everybody is curious about how other people are dealing with it.
Speaker 2: So in some ways there's a real shared humanity that I'm hoping is going to be foundational for all of us as we
Speaker 1: do rather than a divider.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. And
Speaker 2: um,
Speaker 2: we always take credit and criticism for being eternal optimist on this show, and I'll take both in this particular case
Speaker 1: and I think it
Speaker 2: would be good to apply some of that optimism to the work we have in front of us
Speaker 1: today, but we apply some consideration, respect and honesty to it, too. And
Speaker 2: get to some questions. Let's do it.
Speaker 1: Awesome Etiquette is here to answer your questions. You can email them to awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com or leave a voicemail or text at 802858 k i n d. That's 8028585463
Speaker 1: or reach us on social media on Twitter. We are at Emily Post in stand on Instagram were at Emily Post Institute
Speaker 1: on Facebook were awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media post, so we know you want your question on the show.
Speaker 1: Mm.
Speaker 2: Our show begins this week with a question about a caddy co worker.
Speaker 2: Hello, Lizzie and Dan. I recently discovered the podcast. I can't stop listening to it. I'm enjoying catching up on old episodes while at work. I have a question that I hope you both can help me with about a situation that keeps coming up at work
Speaker 2: at my place of employment. There is a big social difference between exempt staff and non exempt staff staff that does not have to clock in and staff that does clock in, respectively.
Speaker 2: One of my coworkers, she is exempt keeps making comments to me about nonexempt staffs. Work ethic As a demographic, she insinuates that the non exempt staff do not work as hard as the exempt staff. On occasion, she even used the term clocker to insult exempt staff she deems do not pull their weight.
Speaker 2: These comments have been regularly made in front of me. What I don't think this coworker realizes is that I am in fact nonexempt. How do I politely set a boundary that I am probably not the best person? She should voice these opinions too.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much in advance for your help working 9 to 5
Speaker 1: Oh, working 9 to 5. That is such an uncomfortable position in such an unfortunate thing to see in a coworker that you you clearly have some kind of rapport with If she feels she can be saying these things to you to have it be a negative thing to have it be something that
Speaker 1: puts down others that defines others in certain ways that in a lot of times are out of their control.
Speaker 1: That is like That's walking into one of those kind of nasty conversations or nasty moments, and I can see how for you personally you're not sure how to approach it because you're in the category of people that she is insulting.
Speaker 1: I think you've got two options. Either you you address it and you let her know that this is not only insulting behavior, but it's insulting to you personally.
Speaker 1: Or I think you let her know that you view this language and the style of talking or this type of discrimination and type of negative talk about co workers in a particular group of people at work that it's not something you're willing to engage in. So,
Speaker 1: Dan, for me, that would sound like because I'm the person that would just say like, Hey, I'm a I'm that clocker you're talking about. Um, but because I wouldn't mind exposing the fact that that's how I get paid, and so I would I would probably say something along the lines of Oh,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know if you're aware, but I'm actually part of that group or, oh, actually, I clock in weekly and I know you feel differently about me, so maybe it's not everyone, but I think that right, because it's a clear example of someone taking
Speaker 1: one negative situation. This person is frustrated with whatever project or whatever person they're frustrated with, and then they're applying it to an entire group of people.
Speaker 1: And I think sometimes giving someone just the reality check of Oh, you know the person you're talking to is associated with that group. It kind of helps them go. Oh, that's right. Wait, these are individual people. What? I'm really you know,
Speaker 1: in the best case scenario, the person gets reflective and goes, What I'm really upset about is this particular person.
Speaker 1: But that's like Best case. But how would you do it? You often go the more private route of things
Speaker 2: I do, and I'm not always convinced that that is such a wise choice. I think sometimes it's an easier choice personally, Um, and my initial instinct was that I would drop this information at a time when it wasn't immediately related to the negative comments the co worker is making
Speaker 2: that I would find some way to let them know that I'm part of that group that they sort of confide in me and talk negatively about.
Speaker 2: And
Speaker 1: this would be like the subtle version.
Speaker 2: Yes, and I'm not necessarily sure that I'm convinced that's the best or produces the best outcomes. But I think it's an option in front of you because, as you say, it's not
Speaker 2: your job necessarily to correct or fix this person or to reveal too much about your status at a company or how you get paid. You can choose to do either of those things. I think that's entirely reasonable and appropriate, but you might choose not to. And the part of me that is a conflict of verse
Speaker 2: says to myself, People do this.
Speaker 2: They get seduced by the danger of negative gossip. Or they share negative opinions or views because they think it's a way to build rapport and connect with people
Speaker 1: often termed as venting. And it's not
Speaker 2: always as effective as I think people think it is, or as it might feel in the moment. And I think people get in this kind of trouble
Speaker 2: not infrequently and in all kinds of different ways, and figuring out a way to let someone know they've kind of walked a little too far out that plank, Um, without pushing them off, giving them a chance to to retreat and recover themselves
Speaker 2: is certainly a reasonable option to keep on the table as well. But I don't think it's your only option. I do like the way you say, you know, you can just address it.
Speaker 1: So what would be like your example of that subtle moment that you might seize the opportunity to drop the hint? Hey, I mean, I'm in that group that you're talking about.
Speaker 2: It's actually sort of an artful thing to bring up something that you know might have a little hook to it and to do it in a way that's really casual.
Speaker 2: And so I'm just completely imagining flight of fancy here. Uh, the first time you see someone in the day, I had to go in there so I could clock in. Can't wait till I don't have to do that anymore. Or,
Speaker 2: um,
Speaker 1: it's
Speaker 2: a little drop that just gets them that information and does it in a way that's completely removed from those other comments, but queues them and set them up to not to not do that around you in the future and to make that choice for themselves in a way that doesn't feel like they've been called out or
Speaker 2: identified as a bad actor themselves, which can make it easier to make that change.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say I think we've all been on the receiving end of that where we hear someone say something and it's it's a check in our own brains of Oh, I didn't know
Speaker 1: Oh, oh, I wonder if that comment I said the other week, you know, and it's I think we've all done that. So to kind of allow that space if you feel you can, and for each situation is going to be different. Some people it's going to be really important to stand up to those terms and just cut off that kind of negative talk immediately.
Speaker 1: And for others, I think you're absolutely right for other situations, a casual or a more subtle approach,
Speaker 1: um, could be a really easy way to let someone know. And if they don't pick up the hit the first time, you can always move to a more direct approach. Later,
Speaker 1: working 9 to 5. We hope that this helps and we hope that you have more pleasant interactions with your co worker moving forward,
Speaker 1: the snob hurting everyone herself, her parents, her friends, other people. What makes Sarah act the way she does?
Speaker 1: Is it a cover up for some lack? She feels in herself. Can a friend like Ron help her in any way?
Speaker 1: Our next question is titled Shutting Down a Shower. Greetings. My husband and I are expecting a child which comes with a lot of joy, anxiety and cost.
Speaker 1: We are Jewish, and in our tradition we do not have baby showers because there is a strong cultural taboo which we believe in against talking about the baby before the baby is born. However, we are pragmatic people and are preparing for our little one to arrive.
Speaker 1: Our co workers and friends have generously asked us about a baby shower. I don't want to be rude by deferring their enthusiasm. Also, we would be very open to gifts, given how much everything costs.
Speaker 1: What's the polite way to say thank you? But no, thank you. Is it polite to send people a link to your registry, even if they don't ask, thank you Jewish and expecting in new York.
Speaker 2: Oh, congratulations. Jewish and expecting in New York.
Speaker 2: It is such an exciting time when you're expecting a new baby. I am
Speaker 2: just a hit. Jealous.
Speaker 1: I
Speaker 2: also am really appreciative of a strong cultural taboo against talking about something good that's going to happen before it actually happens, particularly a baby being born. That
Speaker 2: resonates with some part of me that is always knocking on wood, not wanting to count any chickens before they hatch or bank on any good news until it's really arrived 100%.
Speaker 2: The good news is that there is a very simple etiquette answer here, and that's that it is completely okay to have a shower after the baby is born.
Speaker 2: Absolutely to be that solves all your problems. Go ahead and planet plan the shower. Set a day. Invite people. If you don't want to do even that until the baby's born, just go ahead and map it out in your mind. Have the preparation ready, and then as soon as the baby is born, invite people to that shower and
Speaker 2: enjoy the whole experience. Enjoy the gift exchange, the showering of gift, the
Speaker 2: excitement that you get sending all those thank you cards and expressing gratitude in ways that are satisfying to you and the people who attended and brought gifts. Use the registry the way it's intended to be used to make it easier for guests to
Speaker 2: come to the shower and bring something that's really going to be useful to you and isn't exactly the same thing that the person next to them is bringing
Speaker 2: all of that good etiquette will fall right into place.
Speaker 1: It absolutely is okay to do everything and plan everything exactly as you've stated, because the one thing that I wouldn't do
Speaker 1: is I wouldn't try to send registry information out without any actual shower. And that's you know, if whether that's before or after the baby is born, that's something that really is only tied to a shower event and should not be used if there is no actual shower.
Speaker 1: But given that post baby showers are perfectly appropriate,
Speaker 1: it means that you don't have to worry about that at all. Jewish and expecting in New York We hope that you have a wonderful time celebrating your new bundle of joy.
Speaker 1: How do you go about being Dawson?
Speaker 1: What do you do
Speaker 1: Every time I try, I only make things worse.
Speaker 1: Is there some particular method of being thoughtful that works every time
Speaker 2: our next question is titled, I said no, but now it's a Yes,
Speaker 2: hello I RSVP'd. No, to several weddings that were supposed to take place this spring due to the birth of my first child and being unable to travel. Now that the wedding's have been postponed, my family will be available to attend.
Speaker 2: Can I call to re RSVPs?
Speaker 2: Will the bride and groom send out new invitations? What is the best practice? I would love to attend these events if I'm able, but don't want to put the bride and groom out anymore than they already have been by the postponement. Thanks, Emily.
Speaker 1: Emily, This is really smart to think about because there are sort of a lot of question marks here. If you've already declined an invitation, can you change it later?
Speaker 1: Typically, the answer is that you want to ask first before doing so. And so I do think calling, getting in touch or getting in touch to ask to have a phone call about this would be great.
Speaker 1: I think that you could just do the friendly approach of of saying, Hey, I know that you postponed your wedding and that changes things and it might even change who's on your guest list. But I just wanted to say, you know,
Speaker 1: things would be different. And if if your old guest list still stands, we'd be able to make it this time, whereas we previously wouldn't and we didn't know what to do, think or say,
Speaker 1: to put you in the best position possible. You know, it's like I feel like it's a lot of explaining yourself down, but it's like it's kind of like I don't know what to do here. These are unprecedented times. What should What should you say? You kind of admit that. And I think that's the way to go.
Speaker 2: You're you're absolutely right. These are such unusual scenarios or situations, and
Speaker 2: yet all your basic tenants still apply.
Speaker 2: The crux of it for me is that you want to communicate if you get to this point to where you're actually talking about it, that you said no because of a restriction around this particular window,
Speaker 2: not because you couldn't afford the destination travel or whatever other reasons might be reason someone declined an invitation. So the reason we said no was couldn't travel springtime window around new baby.
Speaker 2: And if the wedding is happening at a different time, we would love to attend.
Speaker 2: And that information is enough to equip them to make all the choices they're going to need to make as hosts, whether they're going to reissue invites, whether they're going to contact everybody who said yes and know whether they're going to have a smaller thing later on which I've heard more and more people talking about as well
Speaker 1: audience. I would definitely use Dan Sample script over mine. It was way clearer and more concise and to the point.
Speaker 1: Nice work, because
Speaker 2: every once in a while and I try not to let you do all the heavy sample script lifting on this show. Although you're good at it, it's It's a natural skill for you.
Speaker 2: The other thought I have just sort of broad piece of advice is keep your ear to the ground. Uh, listen to the family network, or if this is someone you talk to, sort of keep keep your ears open and your antenna out for what you hear them planning to do as far as a postponement,
Speaker 2: a different kind of wedding, a new schedule, whatever it might be.
Speaker 2: And that's going to help you figure out the right moment to make your ask or your mention and do it in a way that is coherent with the new plans that are emerging.
Speaker 1: Emily. We hope that this helps, and we hope that you do get to go to that wedding this fall.
Speaker 1: Winter next spring, whenever it takes place, can you think of other things you can do to make friends?
Speaker 1: Our next question is titled Donations for the Deceased. Hi Emily Post Institute. My mom has asked for donations in lieu of flowers to a few organizations When she passes.
Speaker 1: Do I need to let those organizations know that these are her wishes? Or just assume people will know to donate in my mom's name?
Speaker 1: Thank you,
Speaker 1: Anonymous
Speaker 1: Anonymous. Thank
Speaker 2: you for the question. And
Speaker 2: we're a little unclear just based on the way the question was written, whether this is a wish that your mother has expressed for the future, whether this is something that you're navigating right now on her behalf. But the etiquette. Answer to your question is about all of the stages in the chain of getting this information out. And
Speaker 2: the first people that need to know are the people who would be making the donations and the classic places to spread that word are via word of mouth when you're sharing the news in person or over the phone
Speaker 2: to include it in an obituary. And two, if you are sharing on social media or making some sort of announcement that is playing the role that an obituary would traditionally, sir. But you're doing it on social media. That's another place you could include that information just to get the word out.
Speaker 2: You also want to check in with those organizations and let them know that you've done this so that they can anticipate what's coming in. And they might even be able to help you with figuring out some sort of accounting of the total amount that was donated, or getting you names of people who donated in ways that would help you send notes of appreciation or thanks for people that have done that.
Speaker 1: Your mother has really done you a service by giving you some clear direction, and that can often be a comfort, either when the time comes or during a difficult time.
Speaker 1: Thank you for writing in with this question Anonymous. It is something we do hear a lot from people, but it's kind of not one of those everyday eh tickets that you experience, so we really appreciate the chance to talk about it.
Speaker 1: I think we've got a pretty nice family. A fine, thoughtful family.
Speaker 2: Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463
Speaker 2: You can also reach us on social media on Twitter. We are at Emily Post inst on Instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute and on Facebook. We are awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the show.
Speaker 2: Mhm.
Speaker 1: If you love awesome etiquette, consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette. You'll get an ADS free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content. Plus, you'll feel great knowing you helped keep awesome etiquette on the air.
Speaker 2: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer and the topics we cover.
Speaker 2: Today. We hear from Alyssa about Episode 2 91 and express check out.
Speaker 1: I am very excited for feedback about the
Speaker 2: express checkout situation.
Speaker 1: Hi, Lizzie and Dan. I love your podcast and have been listening to it as I do household chores during social distancing. On this week's episode, I noticed that you both took a hard line stance on the 15 item checkout lane at the grocery store. As a former cashier, I wanted to mention that the actual standards are much more lax
Speaker 1: if you come in the lane with 20 items, it takes about 5 to 10 seconds maximum to scan those extra five items. So
Speaker 1: if you have 16 to 20 items and are hemming and hawing, feel free to head on in that checkout lane. PS five oranges definitely count as five items. Best. Alyssa, I love that.
Speaker 2: I mean, if you want authority, you go to the authority
Speaker 1: Oh, this is exactly what we wanted. When we thought of our feedback segment, we wanted people like who are
Speaker 1: in the trenches or, you know, in this case, a former cashier being able to tell us these kinds of things, that's awesome.
Speaker 2: And is there any concern or fear that by making this a gray area boundary, we're just letting the cat out of the bag that,
Speaker 1: like the floodgates open like you're going to trouble the items for me? That the best piece of information that Alice has given us is it takes about 5 to 10 seconds maximum to scan those extra five items.
Speaker 1: That, to me gives me a chance in my head to be like,
Speaker 1: Oh, wait, this actually would start to take longer. You know what I mean. Or oh, you know this because you and I know from recording things and working with audio, how long 5 to 10 seconds can feel sometimes.
Speaker 1: And so when I start thinking like, Oh, if I've got over those 20 items that those 20 seconds do start to feel like a longer time that you're waiting for someone, I know it sounds ridiculous because we're talking seconds. But that's that's how are fast brains are.
Speaker 2: I'll tell you where it's going to help me a little bit. It's going to help me. What? I'm standing behind someone in line and I'm counting their items and it's coming up over. I'm just going to remember this piece of feedback, and I'm going to say, Listen, we're talking at most five or 10 extra seconds. Totally,
Speaker 1: Totally, Totally.
Speaker 1: Now we hear from Joseph on episode 2 91 Children at Church
Speaker 2: and I was also eager to get our feedback on this particular question.
Speaker 2: Joseph begins. As a pastor, I was interested in your conversation over kids in church. One thing that was missing from your conversation was an acknowledgement that kids are also to use your phrase seeking to reflect and feel fulfilled during the liturgy.
Speaker 2: They often do this by asking questions, talking about what's happening, rummaging around in the pews, et cetera. This is not disrupting to the liturgy. It is the whole point of the liturgy. Respectfully, this is not a matter of etiquette. It's a matter of recognizing that people who we consider different from us because of age, abilities, social norms, background et cetera,
Speaker 2: have the same right to fully exist in a liturgical space as we do
Speaker 2: best. Joseph
Speaker 1: Joseph I think it is a good perspective to keep in mind and to have is that kids are also well. They are welcome in these spaces often, and they are gaining quite a lot from being there, even if they aren't necessarily paying attention. And I think for me the comparison starts to come into a place of like,
Speaker 1: you hear Dan and I often say It's not that you can't bring your kid to a fancy restaurant, for instance, when they're a toddler or when they're when they're a baby. But it's at what point does? Are they unable to participate in a way that's meaningful? And I don't mean that your kid has to be sitting there facing,
Speaker 1: um, you know, facing the front and listening, you know, to every word
Speaker 1: like you say, they ask questions. They might be rummaging around and playing with the Bibles that are in the pew in front of them, that sort of thing. But the experience of having them there, I think, is important, and it's like I think we just keep coming back to dose it right is at what point does it start to become disruptive?
Speaker 1: And I think that's the point when you make considerations about leaving or you try to leave and then come back so that you can participate again.
Speaker 1: But it's the same as if I was coughing really badly. I would excuse myself not after maybe the first couple of coughs. But when I realized I'm having a coughing fit that actually is disruptive, and I need to
Speaker 1: I need to go deal with that for a moment. Um, so that's kind of a little bit of my litmus test, and you're the dad who goes to church every week. I've been rambling. What do you what do you think?
Speaker 2: I think this is a question that
Speaker 2: I wrestle with personally, and I've had discussions with the pastor at my church about, and I know he wrestles with personally.
Speaker 2: He really loves designing Children's services services for Children, and it's been a running discussion for us what the cost benefit analysis is of having Children participate in services, designing services there specifically for Children so they can,
Speaker 2: um, figure out where their points of access are into that world of the grown up service or whether you even think about something as a grown up service to begin with.
Speaker 1: I know that reminds me of the kids table and the grown ups table, and we often say, No, no, we, we we we like to mix those tables
Speaker 2: exactly. And I love, love, love, love the way this feedback challenges ideas about difference, about creating spaces that are open regardless of age, ability, social background.
Speaker 2: I think particularly
Speaker 1: spaces
Speaker 2: when you're talking about religious services. Figuring out ways to break down those barriers to access are so important.
Speaker 2: And I respectfully disagree that there is no question of etiquette here. I really think that whenever we're talking about people interacting and having social norms and expectations
Speaker 2: that that is etiquette, and I don't think it needs to be sort of a stuffy, ossified, old fashioned etiquette that says Children should be seen
Speaker 1: and not heard. But
Speaker 2: I do think that there's room for a dynamic conversation about the etiquette of this, as well as
Speaker 2: the nature of religion and religious services and how they serve people which I think are deep, deep, deep questions
Speaker 1: absolutely Joseph, thank you so much for sharing your feedback with us and thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please keep them coming.
Speaker 1: You can send your feedback or update two awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com or leave us a voicemail or text at 802
Speaker 1: 858 k i n d. That's 8028585463
Speaker 2: It's time for our post script segment, where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette, and this week we're going to step back in time and here a little bit from Emily Post herself in the 1922 Book of Etiquette about dressing rooms.
Speaker 1: This can be found on Page 1 60 of the Replica edition, and I like this section because because it goes over something I think very few of us experience nowadays. Um, but you can see in movies well, movies like Julie and Julia. There's a moment where the character of Julia Child meets
Speaker 1: the other two authors that she's gonna be meaning. She's in the type of dressing room that we're describing here and then the movie. How to Marry a Millionaire when all three of the main characters sort of first meet and get to know each other. It's in a ladies' dressing room, ladies' powder room in a restaurant, fancy restaurant, that sort of thing.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm looking forward to learning something new today.
Speaker 1: Nice, very nice. Well, this section, um, is describing, uh, dressing rooms when you are the host or hostess
Speaker 1: dressing rooms.
Speaker 1: Houses, especially built for entertaining, have two small rooms on the ground floor, each with its lavatory and off of it, a rack for the hanging of coats and wraps. In most houses, however,
Speaker 1: guests have to go upstairs where two bedrooms are set aside, one as a ladies and the other as a gentleman's coatroom
Speaker 1: at an afternoon tea in houses where dressing rooms have not been installed by the architect. The end of the hall, if it is wide, is sometimes supplied with a coat rack, which may be rented from a caterer for the gentleman.
Speaker 1: Ladies are in this case, supposed to go into the drawing room as they are, or go upstairs to the bedroom, put at their disposal and in charge of a lady's maid or house made.
Speaker 1: If entertainment is very large checks are always given to avoid confusion in the dressing rooms exactly as in public check rooms
Speaker 1: in the ladies' dressing room, whether downstairs or up, there must be an array of toilet necessities such as brushes and combs. Well placed mirrors, hairpins powder with stacks of individual cotton balls or a roll of cotton
Speaker 2: in a receptacle from which
Speaker 1: it may be pulled in the lavatory. There must be fresh soap and plenty of small hand towels,
Speaker 1: the ladies personal maid and one or two assistance, if necessary, depending on the size of the party but one and all of them as neatly dressed as possible. Assist ladies off and on with their raps and give them coat checks.
Speaker 1: A lady's maid should always look the arriving guests over, not boldly nor to apparently, but with a quick glance for anything that may be a miss.
Speaker 1: If the drapery of address is caught up on its trimming or a fastening undone, it is her duty to say, Excuse me, madam or miss, but there is a hook undone, or the drapery of your gown is caught. Shall I fix it,
Speaker 1: which she does as quietly and quickly as possible if there is a rip of any sort, she says. I think there is a thread loose. I'll just tack it. The well bred made instinctively makes little of a guests accident and is as considerate as the hostess herself.
Speaker 1: Employees instinctively adopt the attitude of their employer
Speaker 1: in the gentleman's coat room of a perfectly appointed house, the valets attitude is much the same.
Speaker 1: If a gentleman's coat should have met with any accident, the valets says, let me have it fixed for you, sir, it'll only take a moment. And he divests the gentleman of his coat and takes it to the maid and asks her please to take a stitch in it.
Speaker 1: Meanwhile, he goes back to his duties in the dressing room until he is sure the coat is finished when he gets it and politely helps the owner into it.
Speaker 1: In a small country house where dressing room space is limited, the quaint tables copied from the old ones are very useful. Screened off at the back of the downstairs hall or in a very small lavatory,
Speaker 1: they look when shut like an ordinary table. But when the top is lifted, a mirror, the height of the table's width swings forward and a series of small compartments and trays, both deep and shallow, are laid out on either side.
Speaker 1: The trays, of course, are kept filled with hairpins, pins and powder, and the compartments have sunburn, lotion and liquid powder. Brush, comb and whisk broom and whatever else the hostess thinks will be useful.
Speaker 2: I want a dressing
Speaker 1: room. I know, right?
Speaker 1: Um, I thought this was so interesting because there were there were so many things that obviously are above and beyond.
Speaker 1: Um, you know, things that that we don't have in our everyday entertaining. Most of us will never even encounter them in our lifetime. But at the same time, when you get to the end and we're talking about this small country house and you're thinking about what you might keep in a lavatory in your guest bathroom for someone, and we tend to think
Speaker 1: very similar items, you know from soaps and lotions, two brushes and combs and
Speaker 1: feminine hygiene products, things like that
Speaker 2: really fresh towels,
Speaker 1: really fresh towels. I might now consider things like, you know, it's not a bad idea to keep a little old thread on hand, I think nowadays were a little less bothered by
Speaker 1: ahem, that's come undone or or something of the like. I also think our clothing, unfortunately in many cases, is more disposable,
Speaker 1: so we don't think of it as something that's going to require mending on the spot.
Speaker 2: I was thinking about that as it was being described. How much a lot of this advice is built around
Speaker 2: practical concerns that involve people's wardrobes that maybe you just need a space to get a couple of those layers off. Maybe you need some assistance getting them off to even
Speaker 2: use the lavatory.
Speaker 1: Exactly, exactly, you know. So it was also really interesting to think about life where you have people who work in your home and that you would have a housemaid and that you're made would would have, like, here we look at and we see Emily instructing
Speaker 1: how a homeowner might let their staff know how to interact with their guests when they come. And that, to me, is really interesting. Is that something like very few of us experience at all? Um and so the idea that you would take the time to learn how to instruct someone well, or that you might have
Speaker 1: a certain way of doing things through your staff that indicate your own personal
Speaker 1: style as a host or hostess. It's kind of an obvious thought, especially for those that love Downton Abbey. But at the same time, it's also like, Wow, that's I mean, talk about just things that we don't deal with at all, including whether or not it's pronounced valid or valet. I I was trying to figure out that myself throughout reading this well, and
Speaker 2: I sort of stopped you when I asked the question. And you're like, I think there might be different pronunciations depending on the role.
Speaker 1: Maybe I have no idea. I had always heard valet for, um, you know, valet service when someone's picking up their car and that sort of thing. But then when I watch Downton Abbey
Speaker 1: Val, it was with the T on the end started to be familiar to my ear, and I was like, But that seems to be for someone who's helping you get dressed. And so I'm not totally sure. Maybe
Speaker 2: it's a French British thing as opposed to, uh, what role you play
Speaker 1: thing could be. Could be. I have no idea. This is one where we do that. We do the post postscript. Look up.
Speaker 2: I'm reminded a little bit of, uh,
Speaker 2: a story that we've heard told about Emily Post how focused she was on punctuality,
Speaker 2: that one of the stories that was sort of apocryphal in our family growing up was that
Speaker 2: Emily
Speaker 2: I was so focused on the timing of a meal that her, her house staff would have everything prepared and they would wait just outside the door until the clock struck. The minute that food was meant to be served or dinner or breakfast or lunch was meant to begin, and then they would enter
Speaker 2: on time in the moment. And
Speaker 2: I remember a discussion between my mother and my grandfather where my mother was asking my grandfather Well, what would happen if you were late to dinner with your grandmother, Emily Post? And
Speaker 2: he just said you weren't And she said, Well, what if something happened? What if your day went like this and you were late and he just said you weren't? That did not happen.
Speaker 2: But what if it did? No, it did not
Speaker 1: know. Like it didn't happen. You either didn't you canceled or you didn't show up late? Basically.
Speaker 2: But it was a point of personal style, and it was reflected in all the people that she worked with on a daily basis and became a signature style, something we're talking about
Speaker 2: 70 80 years later.
Speaker 1: Totally. We see that same kind of style when Emily discusses in another section of the book Lightness to the Dinner table, and that, you know, you do your best to offer your guests that the guests should offer to
Speaker 1: join the meal where it is, and a wonderful host will, you know, absolutely try to catch them up to the meal so that they can have the full thing.
Speaker 1: And then she tells the story of one of her friends in particular for whom everyone knows you. You just If you show up late, this is what will happen. There is no host guest dance in that moment. It's just like
Speaker 2: we
Speaker 1: move on in this way. Her punctuality. Sometimes I wonder if Emily was writing about herself in that moment.
Speaker 2: Her punctuality was
Speaker 1: was there, but it does. It paints a really interesting picture. It's kind of nice to fantasize about a different way of entertaining. I don't know about you, Dan, but I know you. You all have a big closet right when you walk in. And when I was growing up, my my house had a big closet right when you walked in the front door.
Speaker 1: My current house doesn't have that, and plenty of houses I've gone to You don't have that. Typically, it's
Speaker 1: Oh, throw your coats on the bed, in the master bedroom or in the guest bedroom or in that room over there, and that's kind of what we do now. I always thought it was classy. My grandmother actually had a coat rack she could bust out for, like, Easter celebration, where she had 30 people coming over,
Speaker 2: you know, didn't have to rent
Speaker 1: it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it didn't have to rent it from the caterer.
Speaker 2: No, it's true these traditions live on, and you can definitely see echoes of what we do today in some of this more detailed description from the past.
Speaker 2: Lizzie Post. Thank you for taking us on a little trip back in time, and I have a homework assignment. I'm going to watch how to marry a Millionaire because that is a movie reference that I need to get on board with.
Speaker 1: I love that one. That's a really fun movie, and it's got some good Vermont stuff in it, too.
Speaker 1: Oh, wait, Is it Vermont or Maine? I forget, but it's it's skiing in the Northeast at one point.
Speaker 2: Well, I'll allow for some latitude across the New England states.
Speaker 2: Very nice
Speaker 1: correctness in dress, like other matters of etiquette, is something which has to be learned.
Speaker 1: One needs to check on himself and inquire from those who know what is correct.
Speaker 1: We like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world. And that can come in so many forms, including from before we all started social distancing, and today we hear from Danielle
Speaker 2: Hi, a team.
Speaker 2: I work in food and beverage at a major sports and entertainment venue in a large city.
Speaker 2: The other day I was walking on the event level, the basement of the stadium and another woman was a few steps in front of me, pushing a rolling rack with platters of food wrapped, of course,
Speaker 2: I saw in what felt like slow motion. The wheels on the rack roll under themselves and the entire rack come crashing to the ground.
Speaker 2: She took a moment to take in the truly unfortunate moment she just experienced, and in that moment, myself and nine other employees came to her aid and righted the rack and picked up all of the pans and platters on the ground.
Speaker 2: Fortunately, none of the platters broke open.
Speaker 2: When I saw this unfold, I really thought she would have been left to pick everything up herself. And it really warmed my heart that this group of people descended upon her almost instantaneously to help a fellow employee
Speaker 2: Best. Danielle
Speaker 1: Daniel, Thank you that those moments are encouraging when Group Group helped just, like, materializes and make someone tough moment just easier,
Speaker 2: and you never know where it starts. Maybe everyone simultaneously had the same idea. Or maybe one person's good instinct just inspired eight other people just instantaneously. Uh, it is amazing the impact that we can have, what a small, good deed can mean
Speaker 2: to others around us.
Speaker 1: Indeed, Daniel, thank you for sharing and thank
Speaker 2: you for listening and thank you to everyone who sent us something and thank you to everyone who supports us on patreon.
Speaker 1: Basically, thank
Speaker 2: everyone everywhere
Speaker 1: and please connect with us and share this show with friends, family and co workers
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Speaker 2: Our show is edited by Chris Albertine, an assistant produced by Brigitte Dowd.
Speaker 2: Thanks Kris and Brigitte.
Speaker 1: Thanks Kris and Brigitte