Episode 295 - Eating Out

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social. Could you see that's old fashioned.

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Speaker 1: Watch how busy post and then post to act as host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person, real friendliness.

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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to awesome etiquette,

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Speaker 2: where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty.

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Speaker 1: On today's show, we take your questions on postponed graduations, giving meaningful retirement gifts while social distancing,

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Speaker 1: unwanted but sentimental gifts and bringing guests to the baby shower, but not the wedding.

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Speaker 2: Four. Awesome etiquette Sustaining Members Our question of the week is about feeding tubes in public spaces,

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Speaker 1: plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a post script on how restaurants are preparing to open up again in Hong Kong and what dining out might look like in the future. All that's coming up

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Speaker 1: mhm.

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Speaker 1: Mhm!

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Speaker 1: Awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute.

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Speaker 2: I'm Lizzie Post,

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Speaker 1: and I'm Dan Post sinning,

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Speaker 2: and I'm seriously

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Speaker 1: wondering how you can take me seriously right now.

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Speaker 2: I was gonna say you're not Dan Post sending today you are Dan Post sending the tiger today only your tiger stripes are neon red

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Speaker 2: aqua and there is orange on your forehead. We mix the

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Speaker 1: very

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Speaker 2: cute black nose green chin

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Speaker 2: is agreed it look steel on the on the computer screen. Dan was loverly, decorated by his child pre podcast today and I was greeted with a tiger face. I was told it was a tiger face. I think you look like an inspirational tiger. Daniel

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Speaker 1: Tiger, perhaps be

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Speaker 2: funny if you were a Tony

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Speaker 1: a Tigger

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Speaker 2: T I double guh Alright, you do look really cute. We do have a picture, so we will be showing all of you are lovely audience. Um

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Speaker 2: and it's great. It's great to be here. It's

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Speaker 1: good to be with everyone. It's good to be with you. We gotta face time working today, so we're simulating a lot of studio interaction. I like

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Speaker 2: this

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Speaker 1: because we're talking about makeup. I got to say, you look great, too, because you got the makeup on today. What's going on?

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Speaker 2: I've been really reveling in the no makeup, no nothing part of this entire stay at home, but Yeah. No, I'm dressed up. I did my hair. I did my makeup.

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Speaker 2: I ironed my shirt. I did ABC News live this morning. We talked about etiquette for physical distancing. And so that was the name of the game this morning. And so you might see that around on ABC.

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Speaker 2: Honestly, it's so confusing because I don't know where it ends up. Always, you know what I mean? And so

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Speaker 2: I'm hoping that we'll get access to it. We might not. It might just have been a live it. And that was it. I have no idea. You were telling me about one of the

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Speaker 1: questions that the producer had? That was a new covid etiquette question that had to do with the making noise at six o'clock

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Speaker 1: in support of the

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Speaker 2: health care workers. And this

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Speaker 1: was a new one for me. I've heard a lot of covid etiquette discussions, but

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Speaker 1: that was

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Speaker 2: the first. Yeah, So the question and it wasn't just making noise at 6 p.m. The question was more about just the making noise in general, because people are doing the kind of like I believe it's 7 p.m. In most cities. They do a cheer for all the essential workers, and that's that's like a 62nd. Make as much noise as you can Kind of a thing. I'm sure there are some parents who just got sleeping babies down, who are bummed but, like, you know, or someone who's in the middle of a work call still and who's bummed. But at the same time, it also seems to be really valued really cherished moment of unity.

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Speaker 2: You know, a moment of connection and the question became, So what about the other moments where people are making noise?

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Speaker 2: Um, you know, when they're belting that concerto from their rooftop or they treat the neighborhood to an afternoon, you know, DJ Sessions, Swift

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Speaker 1: concert

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Speaker 2: or, you know, someone's idea of good trumpet music like, You know what I mean. It's it's really debatable as to whether it's always welcome. It's kind of also want to Dan. As you said when we were discussing it earlier, you were like, kind of a matter of taste, right? Like someone's awesome pump you up

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Speaker 2: like Great.

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Speaker 2: I'm

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Speaker 1: feeling good today.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. Yeah, vibes like are awesome. Someone else's might not be for you and so it's a really hard one to say whether or not it's polite or not, but we kind of came down on the side of for the for cheering for the workers. Yes, that's something we're kind of accepting as a collective societal cheer.

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Speaker 2: Um, and then, for anything else, you really do want to kind of think about it and also think about how long you make it last.

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Speaker 2: And did you notice that your neighbors were coming out and cheering you on and getting involved? Or did you notice that people shut windows or, you know, someone called out, Hey, could you stop like, you know,

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Speaker 2: those are things I would take and you got to try sometimes to know that it's not going to work. But it was. It was an interesting one, for sure. We didn't get to go that far into details in it, so I'm glad we have the time here to do that. But it's interesting. It sounds

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Speaker 1: like a fun discussion, and it speaks to the new neighborhood, the neighborhoods that people are now spending more time in together and how those neighborhoods are figuring out how to interact. I saw one that I absolutely loved. Someone had put up a sign in their lawn that declared it the property of the Ministry of the Silly Walk

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Speaker 1: and that to

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Speaker 2: pass the property silly walk across that you

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Speaker 1: had to silly walk past the house and the videos of what people did were absolutely hysterical. It was so much

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Speaker 2: fun. That looks like fun.

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Speaker 1: All right, so there's something related to this discussion that I have to mention. People have to know that you decorated the window in your home office with rain bows.

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Speaker 1: But what Lizzie pose did was she put little rainbow. Does that kind of all, like, overlap on each other all around the edges

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Speaker 2: of the window? Too much? Well,

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Speaker 1: okay. And but the effect and I'm appreciating because we're doing this, Uh, this sort of live studio simulation is that as you sit at your computer, the rainbows frame you

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Speaker 1: around your head so that you sit there in front of a lit window with a frame of rainbow all around you like a halo. It's really quite spectacular. I assumed it was intentional.

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Speaker 2: No, I did not realize that That's how I was framed up in the shot right now. That's really funny. Well, I wanted to paint something and I didn't

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Speaker 2: like it's my window is this source of joy for me? So I didn't want to completely cover it up, But I did want to put something up that I could really leave up for a while. And I just thought that maybe some, like a whole series of little rainbows would be like a border of rainbows, and they kind of overlap and stuff. But yeah, that was a fun.

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Speaker 2: That was a fun evening. You've

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Speaker 1: got the cousin stamp of approval. I like

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Speaker 2: it. Oh, good. I'm so glad. Our audiences, I don't think they've ever heard me. I don't know if they've ever heard me talk about my artwork, but I've been putting up

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Speaker 2: a different piece of artwork in my window today to, um they're kind of pieces that go well in Windows. There's a lot of

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Speaker 2: dimension and glass and things like that. I'm making

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Speaker 1: a little mental note right now that we will have an intro at some point in the near future, where you talk about your artwork and your visual arts, because that's a fun discussion. If we haven't had it in a while, we should revisit.

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Speaker 2: I don't It's so funny because I haven't done any of it in such a long

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Speaker 1: time.

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Speaker 2: But I feel like, yeah, back when I was young.

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Speaker 1: But like your father, this is something you will return to again and again and again in your

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Speaker 2: life. You're right. I probably I probably will pick it up one day when I

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Speaker 2: retire. Well, hopefully

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Speaker 1: it doesn't take that long, but I look forward to the day where something comes out of the Lizzie Post Studios, and I will be appropriately impressed and surprised when it happens,

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Speaker 2: noted Tiger Face noted, So

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Speaker 1: we could talk about art all day.

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Speaker 2: And

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Speaker 1: as tempting as that is, we're here for another

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Speaker 2: purpose. We are. We should probably get to some questions. Let's do it.

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Speaker 2: Awesome Etiquette is here to answer your questions. You can email them to awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. Leave a voicemail or text at 802858 k i n d. That's 8028585463 or reach us on social media on Twitter. We are at Emily Post Inst on Instagram We are at Emily Post Institute on Facebook Were awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media posts, so we know you want

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Speaker 1: your question on the

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Speaker 2: show.

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Speaker 1: Our first question this week is about postponed pomp and circumstance. This question came to us through Facebook Messenger.

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Speaker 1: Hi. I hope you are all staying healthy. I have a question regarding graduations and covid 19. I am currently a senior in college and have always had my Emily Post books handy. But of course, there is nothing about handling graduation and graduation announcements during a global pandemic.

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Speaker 1: My graduation has been postponed in quotation marks, but we do not know the new date yet. When is it appropriate to send my announcements? And what should my announcements say? Thank you, Belle

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Speaker 2: Belle, I got to tell you

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Speaker 2: this question sent Dan and I to the book standing me into the books websites. They have the website, and it got us trying to define when graduation happens because, as it turns out in our advice, we don't actually specify when the announcements go out. It's not like

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Speaker 2: a baby. Where once the baby's born, you send the announcements or the wedding where once you've had that big celebration or ceremony, you send it out. You know, it's a little bit different. It just says

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Speaker 2: after graduation after after you graduate.

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Speaker 2: And in these times that will

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Speaker 2: Dan and I got on a sidekick wondering just what constituted graduation and regular times. Is it the day that you're done with all of your requirements for the school? Is it the day you receive your diploma? Is that when you actually cross and someone else gives you that diploma

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Speaker 2: and Dad, we debated about what it looked like, but right now it's different things for different people because different schools are handling this differently. Dan, what are some of your thoughts? My big

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Speaker 1: picture thought is that you've got some latitude here when we look at

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Speaker 1: the other big question about traditional etiquette that often arises around graduation announcements. It usually comes from the person receiving the announcement, and they want to know if they're required or obligated to send a gift. And the answer is no, that a graduation announcement is not like an invitation to a wedding.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't require that you send a gift that you reply with a gift A lot of people do. A lot of people feel inspired. They just want to celebrate a graduate. And it's not an uncommon response or reaction, but it's by no means expected because it's not expected.

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Speaker 1: We advise that you can send out announcements pretty broadly. They can go to pretty much anybody you feel inspired to share that good news with.

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Speaker 1: So you're not likely to step on a lot of toes on the receiving end of a graduation announcements, which is why I come back around and I think you've got some latitude here and very traditionally, the experience of graduating comes pretty closely, aligned with some sort of ceremony

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Speaker 1: celebrating that

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Speaker 2: it's like you have the end of classes and then usually, like a week or two weeks later, there's a big ceremony, and then everything goes out. So there's these kind of two weeks where

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Speaker 2: it's not gonna matter too much one way or the other if they get mailed out just before right after, you know, it's all kind of within the time frame, but here it's different, and some schools are scrapping the ceremony altogether and opting for digital or other ways,

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Speaker 2: uh, to try and celebrate students. Some schools, I think, are trying to hold out for the hope of doing a ceremony. Still,

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Speaker 2: and that's what it sounds like bells school is doing is that they've postponed it. They don't know when it's gonna happen. So it's not like on a announcement she can put the exact date of a graduation, you know?

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Speaker 2: But if she was feeling like I don't know when they're going to say it and I'd like to celebrate this or make the announcement, then I'm with Dan. Why not send it out? You know,

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Speaker 2: I'd be curious Bell if they're sending out the well, I guess because they're postponing they're not like sending just the diplomas home or something like that, you know?

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Speaker 2: But to any students who get that diploma sent to the house instead, if your school is scrapping, I say, go ahead, send that announcement, right? Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Whatever sort of gets you to that 99% confidence interval that that diploma is yours.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Whether you've got it physically

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Speaker 1: in your hands or not, I think that you're probably okay sending it up. But you want to be really sure you want to know that you are

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Speaker 1: a graduated human. Confirm that in some way before you announce it, because that would be awkward or embarrassing.

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Speaker 2: I think that's no. That's a safe assumption, because safe assumption. I like that that direction as far as the

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Speaker 1: wording, I think that you go with a standard graduation announcement. Wording. And you, as Lizzie says, omit the date because it's not like you can say on such and such a date. I walked and received my diploma, and it was so exciting.

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Speaker 1: But you

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Speaker 2: don't typically say an announcement anyway. So

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Speaker 1: master of sample scripts give it to me. What do you think would be some good language for this?

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Speaker 2: We don't actually have formal sample language for graduation announcements in our book, but I would keep it to the tune of something along the lines of Usually it's your parents' name or your guardian's name,

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Speaker 2: saying that they are are pleased to announce the graduation of and then your name

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Speaker 2: and then from and your school. And then you can list, you know, with the class of you know, in this case, 2020 and a degree in such and such, you know, and that's that. That's kind of like the basics of it is what happened. Well, you know,

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Speaker 2: we the parents of this person are happy to announce that this has happened.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if you would send it out on your own and like, I don't think there would be anything wrong with it if you didn't have people that identified as your parent or you know what I mean? I don't know that I see a problem with sending it out and saying, I'm pleased to announce that I graduated like, you know what I mean to do it on behalf of yourself if you didn't feel like there was someone

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Speaker 2: who is doing it on half, you know, we see that in wedding invitations, right? Where If you don't have a parent or you aren't close with your parent or your you know, it's just it's not that circumstance. Then you don't end up writing, you know, your parents names are pleased to, you know, announce the marriage of their daughter or their son or what? You know whichever,

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Speaker 2: and so

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Speaker 2: I don't know, I just wouldn't want anyone to feel left out or like they couldn't if they didn't have a kind of, like a guardian or something like that. You know,

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Speaker 1: I absolutely agree, Lizzie. I think that the parallel with the wedding is is very direct. Um, and I think that sample language is pretty solid. I am pleased to announce I am honored to announce I'm proud to announce, or

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Speaker 1: we are proud If it's coming from the perspective of those parents or a guardian,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to have to do a little bit of digging, though I feel like that we have to have a sample for this language and like, may be the 18th or the 17th edition, and it might have gotten cut due to size and things like that. But

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Speaker 2: I feel like that's one that I want to. I want to be able to have that in written form for us.

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Speaker 1: Bell, I am sure you are not the only graduate facing a question like this right now, and we really appreciate your asking and giving us a chance to talk a little bit more about it. Congratulations on your graduation and good luck getting those announcements in the mail We may never settle the question of which comes first, but the proof is clear.

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Speaker 1: Good education is good business.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Our next question is titled Retirement Gift. Dear Awesome Etiquette Team. I work as an e A, and my boss is about to retire in two months. He has been great to me, and I wanted to give him a gift and thank him for the time that we've spent together

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Speaker 2: due to social distancing. The odds of me seeing him in person before the date of retirement are pretty low.

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Speaker 2: When should I send the gift to him? I doubt there will be a party of any kind, so I can't just bring it. What's an acceptable gift from an assistant to a boss not being forced? He's just a good boss. Any help would be so appreciated. Thanks. Exceedingly eager Executive assistant,

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Speaker 1: E

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Speaker 2: A. It

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Speaker 1: is so nice. That was my first thought. I was like, This is so thoughtful. And,

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Speaker 1: um, I want to start off by just encouraging. Are eager assistant to go ahead and do it. Um, it's a really nice thing. A retirement is a big deal in someone's life. It can be a big deal in a company or an organization.

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Speaker 1: But it's a particularly big deal in someone's life and acknowledging that acknowledging the work that they've put in the relationships that they've built over time with others as well as with you,

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Speaker 1: um, is a really special opportunity, and I say Sees it.

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Speaker 2: I think so, too. Do you think you should send it? Or do you think that you should like, Would you send it to the office? Or if you happen to know this person's home, would you send us to their home? Because these are interesting circumstances that you might. Someone might not be going into the office, but I'm assuming male is getting forwarded.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going with some Let's call it covid 19 latitude here, whereas usually you would want to keep professional gifts in professional contexts, you would wanna do that exchange at the office or through the workplace or at a retirement party. Um, I think this is one of those cases where practicality is going to lead the way, and I say you get them that gift. However, it's most convenient and practical to get it to them. And

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Speaker 1: if you've got a home address. I think that not only would someone understand that they would appreciate your making that effort, if there was a pretty good chance that the office would forward mail, you could go that route if that was as secure and as easy a way to get it to them as anything else here, I'm I'm thinking about what gets it. They're not

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Speaker 1: the perception of that medium of transfer being part of the message.

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Speaker 2: It also sounds like these two have a really good relationship. So I'm not thinking that a boss would think it inappropriate to receive something at home if that home address had been known that sort of thing, you know, yes.

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Speaker 1: But I think that question of the appropriateness of the gift does come into play when you're thinking about what to give.

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Speaker 1: And I think that the usual ideas and recommendations about a gift and a professional relationship or context do still apply, even though it's a retirement gift. So

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Speaker 1: what are some of those things? The big one is that we used to say you didn't send gifts up the food chain. In fact, we still say that, but a retirement gift is an exception to that, because guess who's removing themselves from the food chain? Your

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Speaker 1: completely avoiding the appearance of trying to engender favor with a supervisor or superior.

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Speaker 1: So it's okay to do this individually, you don't need to check in with other people, see what they are doing. Try to organize a group gift. This really can be something personal from you.

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Speaker 1: The nature of the gift, I do think, still matters. This person is not removing themselves from their social sphere, their family, their home life, and

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Speaker 1: you want to honor that. So you want to avoid gifts that are too personal in nature. Anything that's going to potentially create an appearance in their home, that this relationship is something other than professional, and you just that's not your intent. So you want to stay away from any kind of gift that would give that appearance absolutely.

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Speaker 2: Along those same lines, humor, humor can be one of those that's just retirement is not the time to go for it. Typically, it's a little more dicey, I put it in that category of humor. Done well is fantastic. It's such a risk, whether or not it's gonna land right?

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Speaker 2: Retirement to me suggests the kind of time that you want sincerity

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Speaker 2: that you want. Like that kind of genuine, um, appreciation and recognition happening as opposed to the roast. You know, it's like that's That's not probably what's going on in most retiring situations. So

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Speaker 1: you want to think about cost. You don't want something to make someone else feel uncomfortable because they feel like you over spent

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Speaker 1: for your budget or that something was so inexpensive that it was just not not a considered thing. It was a throwaway items, so cost matters, but we can't give you an actual window. We can't say it has to be between this and this, because different relationships, different bosses, professions, industries, you're going to have different standards around what that window is.

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Speaker 1: But you do want to be thinking about your top and bottom range, and you don't want to get

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Speaker 1: into anything that's going to make someone feel either sort of cast off like it wasn't a thoughtful gift, or that you maybe went a little too far and put yourself out in a way that would make them feel uncomfortable.

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Speaker 1: Beyond that, I think about this person who you clearly think highly of and that thought will carry through to the choice that you make for a gift,

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Speaker 1: E A. We hope that this answer helps and that your boss enjoys his or her retirement.

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Speaker 1: You see, this problem of making a choice is not a simple one, and it cannot be decided in a single day.

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Speaker 1: We'll review your tentative choice as you learn more about yourself and the world in which you will live and work.

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Speaker 1: Thank you very much. You've helped me a lot and you're welcomed you in.

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Speaker 1: I'll see you tomorrow.

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Speaker 1: Our next question is about sentimental silver. Hi, Dan and Lizzie.

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Speaker 2: I love

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Speaker 1: your show. Exclamation point.

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Speaker 1: I have a quick question about inheritance presence from in laws. My father in law wants to give us the family silver, I guess because it has the initials of my husband's last name. And by the way, I did not take his last name and my initial is different.

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Speaker 1: Regardless of why he wants to give it to us, we will not use it and do not want it. He just turned 89 wants to send it to us. Now my husband has sentimental sisters who may want the silver. Should we tell him? Don't bother.

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Speaker 1: Should we gently suggest that he offer it to someone else, or should we just accept it?

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Speaker 1: Can you suggest wording that may be appropriate? Thanks for any help you can give us on this one. Stay safe in this weird time, Karen,

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Speaker 2: because I got this one. I've totally got this one. This is a

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Speaker 1: tricky one. I'm so

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Speaker 2: experienced in this one.

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Speaker 2: So I think I love the suggestions that Karen is made here. I also really like that Karen's thinking about the fact that other people might appreciate this more. You know that this doesn't mean a lot to them. It's not something they would use and therefore would probably sit around in a drawer most of the time.

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Speaker 2: And I like the idea of thinking about who might like it. But I also like the idea of really respecting our grandfather, who's making a decision about where his belongings are gonna go because it's a discussion that's coming up now. I think you can broach the subject and say, Oh,

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Speaker 2: that's incredibly thoughtful of you. I happen to know that the sisters might be really interested or wow, that's really thoughtful of you.

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Speaker 2: We don't really entertain with Silver that much. And we would love to just make sure that if if you wanted it to go to someone who is going to use it all the time that we might suggest one of the sisters.

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Speaker 2: But we would understand if the, you know, if the initialing was what really wanted you to, you know, have it go to us. We understood, you know, that you would understand if he really wanted to give it to you.

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Speaker 2: That gives him the choice and let them know that you'd be graciously accepted, but that you also understand it might have a better home.

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Speaker 2: I think if Grandpa ends up giving it to you anyway, then I think it's probably best to kind of keep it. I would do the thing that we do at our family, which is we actually offer to bring things like Silver Special China to larger family gatherings so that it gets used by family members who might use it. Even if

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Speaker 2: Grandpa needs to know that it lives in one particular house, you know?

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Speaker 2: So That's just kind of another way to think about doing it. But what do you think when you hear this, Dan? It's

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Speaker 1: funny, I was thinking to myself, The communication is so important here that these are really sensitive questions around issues of life and death and people's belongings. The things that they've accrued over a lifetime, where they go, This really matters to people. A lot of people enjoy being part of the process of thinking about how that distribution happens, and

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Speaker 1: I hear

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Speaker 1: in your language, Lizzie a real sort of deep understanding of the importance of that process.

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Speaker 1: And I'm also hearing an understanding of an etiquette concept that we talk about on this show all the time about receiving gifts. Well, so there's sort of two levels that I see the engagement on this question happening. One is good communication about decisions about belongings around

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Speaker 1: the end of life and the other being a question about just

00:26:34

Speaker 1: hitting your minimums on receiving gifts. Well, so as far as the opportunity of that communication, to be sure, things get to the right people for the right reasons. I like your tone. I like your spirit. I like your willingness to see different sides of the same question. I think those are all of the

00:26:52

Speaker 1: ingredients for success in that communication.

00:26:56

Speaker 1: If that communication doesn't generate results, that are the results that you would be most looking for I e. The father or father in law in this case deciding to gift the silver to someone else. Then the obligation is on you to receive it well,

00:27:09

Speaker 1: And what is receiving it? Well, looks like appreciating the thoughts about it, receiving it and thanking them for it and not re gifting it in a way that would cause harm or hurt to them. So

00:27:23

Speaker 1: I think as long as you're doing those two things, you're in pretty good shape. Karen,

00:27:28

Speaker 2: we hope that you do have many more years with your father in law. And we also hope that this answer helps.

00:27:37

Speaker 1: Mother, When you got our silver, why didn't you pick one with more design? This pattern appealed to me because of its simplicity.

00:27:45

Speaker 1: Your father and I started buying this Sterling before you remember the family.

00:27:49

Speaker 1: We bought our last pieces when you were about 10 and Judy about five. I wouldn't remember that when I mother

00:27:58

Speaker 1: of all my possessions,

00:28:00

Speaker 1: I think I'm proudest of my silver.

00:28:03

Speaker 1: Oh, it is beautiful. It's awfully rich. Lucky it has distinction there.

00:28:08

Speaker 1: Yeah,

00:28:09

Speaker 2: Mhm.

00:28:11

Speaker 2: This question is titled Invited to one but not the other. Dear Lizzie and Dan, my sister in law is throwing her own baby shower. I know this is an issue, but it was unavoidable.

00:28:23

Speaker 2: The shower is supposed to be held at a winery near her home at the end of June. With the stay at home order in place and new guidelines regarding large gatherings, we are 99% sure that the event will not take place.

00:28:41

Speaker 2: She plans on sending all attendees a bottle of wine from the winery, cocktail napkins she had made and the favor a bottle of nail polish. She has 15 extra invitations and was wondering if she could send them to extended family and friends, whom she was not able to invite to the wedding due to venue size.

00:29:03

Speaker 2: Her thought is that these people have been good to her and her mom. They've been close at various points in their life. One in particular sent a gift to me when I had my baby even though I didn't know them very well, and she believes they will probably send her gift as well.

00:29:19

Speaker 2: Would it be appropriate for her to invite these additional guests if they were not invited to the wedding?

00:29:26

Speaker 2: Thank you for your help. And I hope you and your families are staying safe and healthy. Best Amanda Amanda.

00:29:33

Speaker 1: Thank you for the question. This is one of those cases where there is an etiquette concept that I think may have gotten crossed.

00:29:40

Speaker 2: Blended a little Exactly. And this Dan, this is one of those that makes me think, uh, we must be a little more careful with our wording to make sure we're always

00:29:51

Speaker 2: specifying what we're talking about when we talk about things. It's a good self check.

00:29:57

Speaker 1: And the idea that is sort of the etiquette idea behind this question is that you wouldn't necessarily want to invite someone to a bridal shower that wasn't invited to a wedding itself. Exactly

00:30:09

Speaker 1: the big picture thinking being that the wedding is sort of a bigger event, and the shower is sort of a more intimate, close personal friends and family, and that anybody that would be at that should probably get an invitation to the larger event. The ceremony that is, um,

00:30:26

Speaker 2: well. And also you don't want to invite people to the party that's just about gifts and not invite them to the main event. That's about the actual reason that we're giving these people so many gifts.

00:30:37

Speaker 1: Yes, and

00:30:39

Speaker 1: while it can seem, and sometimes it is the case that there is a series of events in someone's life that looks something like

00:30:47

Speaker 1: bridal shower, wedding ceremony baby shower following sometime thereafter and they can feel like part of a sequence, Um, it's it's, uh, they aren't connected in the same ways that there doesn't need to be any coherence between a wedding guest list and a baby shower. You really have

00:31:08

Speaker 1: the the usual criteria for thinking about shower guests when you're thinking about your shower guest list. And that's that. It's meant to be a relatively small affair with intimate friends and family,

00:31:19

Speaker 1: But no need to coordinate that with the wedding ceremony guest list the same way you would with a bridal shower.

00:31:26

Speaker 2: Absolutely. Amanda, we hope that that helps clarify things. And, man, I think it would be lovely to have these invitations sent out to this group who has been so supportive. So I hope that that helps make this

00:31:39

Speaker 2: unique baby shower

00:31:41

Speaker 2: feel really inclusive and supportive during a difficult time.

00:31:45

Speaker 1: Yeah,

00:31:46

Speaker 1: thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463

00:32:00

Speaker 1: You can also reach us on social media on Twitter. We are at Emily Post inst on Instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute and on Facebook. We are awesome etiquette. Remember to use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question, comment or feedback on the show.

00:32:16

Speaker 2: If you love awesome etiquette and we truly hope you do, please consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette. You'll get an ads free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content.

00:32:34

Speaker 2: Plus, you'll feel great knowing you helped keep awesome etiquette on the air.

00:32:39

Speaker 1: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer and the topics we cover. Today we hear from Emily about Episode 2 94. Texting to talk

00:32:50

Speaker 2: Hi, Lizzie and Dan. I've been listening to the show for a number of years and appreciate your common sense approach to manners.

00:32:56

Speaker 2: However, I feel you missed the mark a bit in your advice to make sure to type as much as you can into a single text.

00:33:03

Speaker 2: While this does often mean that the receiver will only get one notification, this is not always the case. Sometimes, if you have a different carrier than the person you are contacting, the message will be broken into text of 160 characters,

00:33:17

Speaker 2: and those often are received in a mixed up order, making it more difficult to piece together the message.

00:33:23

Speaker 2: I'm not sure what the solution is is clearly if you're otherwise engaged. A number of notifications is quite disruptive, but I wanted to alert you to this unfortunate but not uncommon problem. Love the show. Keep doing what you're doing, Emily Emily so right, because I have friends who this happens with and you get the like one out of two you know,

00:33:43

Speaker 2: one out of four whenever it is. So

00:33:47

Speaker 1: my etiquette advice is no your technology, right? If your text get broken up, try to keep them under that word limit. I don't know if, like the receiving carrier might do that. Or

00:33:57

Speaker 1: it's a great thing to think about, though for sure.

00:34:00

Speaker 2: No, absolutely. Unfortunately, though she's right. It doesn't solve the problem because no matter what, then, so like when I text with someone who's Carrier is, we have that. I guess it's not an incompatibility. But I guess it kind of is that I just need to be aware of that and try to remember it. But it doesn't solve the fact that no matter what, then my messages have to come in. But it would. You would be able to get in the like

00:34:26

Speaker 2: rather than do like three short sentences that would be under 160 characters. You could at least get your three short sentences into one text and only have one interruption.

00:34:36

Speaker 2: But that's asking a lot for like on the moment, thinking and typing with your thumb.

00:34:42

Speaker 1: I feel like such an old man right now. I'm thinking remedy is the soul of wit. I don't and this is the advice I want to give, which is if your message is requiring that much exposition.

00:34:56

Speaker 1: Maybe try a phone

00:34:57

Speaker 2: call, pick up the phone and call someone. Is that

00:35:01

Speaker 1: I know Some people don't like it.

00:35:03

Speaker 2: It's been totally awesome for us, though, especially given the way our workdays are now to be able to utilize something like, uh,

00:35:12

Speaker 2: a long text message that kind of hit some points that for some reason feels better than an email. You know what I mean? It's like because my my brain goes to If you have that much to say and it's written, throw it into an email. You know, you've got kind of bigger space giant keyboard, but I at the same time I know that feeling of just like I don't want to email this to Dan. I want to text it to him like

00:35:36

Speaker 1: Okay, clearly this is a hot topic because we both have a lot

00:35:39

Speaker 2: to say. I could turn it into an entire postscript segment.

00:35:42

Speaker 2: Emily, thank you so much for your feedback. We really appreciate it. It is definitely an extra point to be considering when thinking about multiple texts.

00:35:52

Speaker 1: Thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please do keep them coming. You can send your next feedback, comment or update two awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. You can also leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463

00:36:08

Speaker 2: It's time for our post script segment, where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette, and this week we're actually talking about something we wouldn't normally talk about, which is a specific company and what they're up to.

00:36:22

Speaker 2: But Black Sheep Restaurant Group put out an action plan for handling their restaurants in Hong Kong during physical distancing, while Covid, 19 is still with us

00:36:33

Speaker 2: and one of the really interesting things about getting shared this document. Um, it's a public document. You can you can see it. I believe on their website. Was that it really painted a picture for what restaurant life might look like during,

00:36:48

Speaker 2: uh, these physical distancing practices And as as we do, start to open up, which, as we know especially here

00:36:55

Speaker 2: in the West, is starting to happen a little bit in states. I don't think we're at full restaurants opening up again yet, but it's going to happen eventually. And we actually really thought that both the tone of how the restaurant was communicating to the restaurants that are part of the restaurant group, they're not quite a chain. They're different restaurants.

00:37:14

Speaker 2: But the tone of how the co owner and co founder was speaking to

00:37:19

Speaker 2: all of these folks the level of support and help they were providing and also just the picture that it was painting of what our lives might look like in the future was just fascinating. And we really wanted to take the time to share some takeaways. It's a 17 page document, so we're not sharing everything,

00:37:37

Speaker 2: But it was really cool. Dan, do you want to like what? What did you think when you first read it,

00:37:42

Speaker 1: it was sort of a series of revelations, which is a weird thing to say about a sort of corporate document, but a little bit like you. I have so many questions in my mind about what life is gonna look like in three months and six months in a year and a half and

00:37:59

Speaker 1: I felt like this started to paint the picture of what that might be, or at least gave me some different ideas or ways to think about it or start to imagine it in my own mind.

00:38:08

Speaker 1: So I was really happy you shared it with me, and I'm happy we get to share it with our audience

00:38:12

Speaker 2: today. I am too. And I feel like the big takeaways were that safety is definitely at the heart of everything that was like throughout the full 17 pages.

00:38:23

Speaker 2: It was definitely safety over profit safety over everything employee over everything

00:38:30

Speaker 2: that was really key. And then beyond that, it felt like there was a really strong takeaway for me, at least, that we should be prepared for contact tracing to really be something that public spaces are preparing for and participating in.

00:38:45

Speaker 2: And that thinking about that really changed how I think about what information I'm giving to people, how I might get follow ups, you know, it's it's not like you're just getting a follow up survey from a company that just contact tracing, which I haven't really experienced yet, might be something that is really going to be prevalent.

00:39:05

Speaker 1: That was such a big component to the thinking here, and it really relied on communication, which is where my little etiquette flags started to go off. I started to see

00:39:15

Speaker 1: this organization, these restaurants preparing for levels of communication between employees, between management and staff, between customers and the restaurant itself in ways that wouldn't usually be required, or part of the thinking of an organization like this. So

00:39:32

Speaker 1: in particular that contact tracing sort of demanded a level of communication and connection between everybody. That was in some ways quite remarkable.

00:39:43

Speaker 2: It started with a letter from the co founder. I thought it had a really sympathetic and smart tone to it.

00:39:50

Speaker 2: I really appreciated that It closed with a focus on the company's values staying intact.

00:39:58

Speaker 2: And I thought that that was just really, really nice, really kind of unifying way to think about your company as opposed to just being a financial livelihood, which is important. I don't want to say just in front of that, but

00:40:13

Speaker 2: it was interesting. I thought that it really closed on. Our goal is to get through this with our values intact.

00:40:20

Speaker 1: Well and for the two of us who run this etiquette equation of etiquette being manners and principles and the manners are meant to express the core values. You could see that kind of thinking that the value stay intact. Our manners are going to shift and change.

00:40:35

Speaker 1: But ultimately it's in service of the same ideals that have always been in service of

00:40:41

Speaker 1: been thinking about that. I also really liked that introduction and noticed his preparing for conflict as well

00:40:48

Speaker 1: that there was this awareness that people were gonna have strong and different feelings about a lot of things that were going to be happening and

00:40:56

Speaker 1: from all different directions and angles and sides of the equation and that awareness, that sort of emotional maturity of saying Okay, there's gonna be some awkward moments coming and we've got our baseline. We know where we're operating from. We're gonna we're gonna get through that, and it's going to be okay with something else that I noticed because it's a theme that we have on this show.

00:41:16

Speaker 1: Prepare for difficult conversations. It's not about avoiding all awkwardness in life that oftentimes it's these difficult times that really give us an opportunity to be our best and show our best.

00:41:28

Speaker 2: I thought, just to give you a flavor, we'd read the last paragraph of it. I didn't want to read the whole thing because it's too long. But it says for now we are living day to day, and every day that our team stays healthy and the restaurants stay open is a win for us.

00:41:44

Speaker 2: If the situation declines and government mandates a shutdown, we will be the first to get behind it.

00:41:50

Speaker 2: But until then, we have a duty to our 1000 plus community, many of whom have no financial buffer to do everything we can to keep the lights on in their homes, keep their kids enrolled in school and a roof over their heads. And then it's it's signed. I like that kind of a focus on these are people who have homes and lives outside of our business, and our business helps them

00:42:16

Speaker 2: achieve those homes and lives, and that that's our goal. And I think that that, to me, speaks to community and to to what businesses do for communities. You know,

00:42:29

Speaker 2: aside from giving us a glimpse into how this company seems to think or at least chooses to communicate. This really gave us that glimpse into how restaurant restaurants are trying to navigate this unknown future and what some of the things we might be needing to get used to. Our what Some of the ideas, at least in this

00:42:48

Speaker 2: initial round, of trying to think about how we're going to open up and move forward in the future

00:42:53

Speaker 2: seemed like good ideas. And Dan and I were seeing things in the document, like hand sanitizer, hand wipes at every table, a bag or an envelope per customer to store their mask during the meal. What are some of the other things Dan?

00:43:08

Speaker 1: Things about the availability of food so reduced menus, streamlined menus, menus that don't have as many raw ingredients or

00:43:18

Speaker 1: meat products expensive ingredients that they might have trouble turning over if they're running a smaller flow of customers. So just being ready for the menu not to look exactly like it may have six months ago,

00:43:31

Speaker 1: buffets being closed. It's so obvious. Once I saw it as a bullet point, but it said no, that's probably true, probably haven't seen not going to see a buffet again for a little while.

00:43:41

Speaker 2: They also had other other measures that really I thought I would feel very different. You know, like we've all been to a restaurant that doesn't have a buffet

00:43:49

Speaker 2: or we've been to a restaurant that has a very limited menu.

00:43:52

Speaker 2: But we haven't been to a restaurant, probably where we've had to sign a health declaration in order to eat there for the evening. And I thought that was a really interesting one that they suggested and then provided a suggested declaration. And I was like, Wow, that seems so big, like, so huge.

00:44:10

Speaker 2: And then I read the declaration and here were the four points that were on it. And please remember that this particular restaurant group is located in Hong Kong. So it focuses on,

00:44:20

Speaker 2: um, Hong Kong. But it said the four questions were about in the past 14 days. Have you tested positive or been identified as a known carrier of Covid 19.

00:44:31

Speaker 2: Have you experienced symptoms commonly associated with covid 19.

00:44:36

Speaker 2: Have you been outside of Hong Kong? In their case, have you been in direct contact with anyone that you know or knew to be carrying the virus or that has traveled outside of Hong Kong themselves,

00:44:50

Speaker 2: and it was interesting that they didn't actually feel like difficult questions to have to answer. You know, they didn't feel to me and other people might feel otherwise, but they didn't feel particularly like like I would be giving up a lot by telling anyone that. And so I felt more comfortable with this very different idea of like how you would enter a restaurant and engage with the host. Hi, Do you mind signing this waiver?

00:45:17

Speaker 1: Let's fill out the paperwork so we can get you a table

00:45:20

Speaker 2: and it's not quite a waiver. It is a declaration. You're just declaring that in the fort past 14 days, this is what you know of yourself and the people you've interacted with. Well, I'm

00:45:29

Speaker 1: imagining an American version of this where there might or might not be as many questions about your behavior, your personal life. But it might be just about sharing your contact information

00:45:39

Speaker 1: so people can do follow up. If that's required, you might say to yourself, Oh, there's there's no way I'm going to do paperwork to sit down at a restaurant. You might, And it might be as much as just sharing your full name and email so that you can open up that line of communication if it becomes important.

00:45:55

Speaker 2: And that was another thing that I thought was really interesting, that they were preparing the restaurant owners and staff workers to train their staff with sample language about how to handle

00:46:11

Speaker 2: calling or or reaching out to folks to let them know that they have now been informed that a covid positive, you know, person had dined at the restaurant and remember, because we don't know until we get tested. It's very it is easy for that to happen, and contact tracing is then the best way to follow up and inform people and try to track down what's going on. So it was really fascinating to see sample language

00:46:38

Speaker 2: that was, you know, encouraging people to

00:46:42

Speaker 2: be patient and to, you know, uh not not encouraging the person on the phone to be patient, but encouraging the person conducting the call and having to reach out to a customer to be patient, to let the person catch up to recognize that you're delivering what might be unsettling news to someone

00:47:00

Speaker 2: that it's not just about you getting through your call list that it's, you know, those kinds of things I really felt were coming up

00:47:07

Speaker 2: in their direction to the employees for how to handle now becoming facilitators of a contact tracing process.

00:47:15

Speaker 1: Was he post, I noticed kind of a funny one. Near the end of this document, there were some recommendations for how people can take care of themselves. So this was for employees. It was tips on maintaining a safe workplace. But there were also tips on how to take care of your personal life, your home itself

00:47:33

Speaker 1: and the last tip on home care involved flushing the toilet with the lid closed. And this was something we discussed on this show. And it was an open debate for weeks and weeks, and I just thought to myself, Maybe covid, 19, is going to answer the question of what is the resting state for the toilet, And how should you treat the lid when you flush?

00:47:57

Speaker 2: Oh, man, it will be an interesting world as we move forward, that's for sure.

00:48:03

Speaker 2: I want to thank everyone for going through this with us. It was born out of an interview I did with John Boehner, who's a food writer and a specialist in wine. He wrote a book called The New Wine Rules, and he was interviewing me for a publication, and it was a really interesting conversation because

00:48:20

Speaker 2: you really imagined what would it be like to try to

00:48:25

Speaker 2: engage in a restaurant setting with a 6 ft distance in place and high sanitation orders? I mean, it was really fascinating once you really started to play the scenarios out. So I just want to

00:48:38

Speaker 2: thank everyone for joining us thinking about this,

00:48:41

Speaker 1: and we're happy to share a link for this document. If your curiosity is piqued, take a look for it on all our social media accounts.

00:48:48

Speaker 1: Every step we take to prevent the spread of disease means increased happiness and greater living efficiency for all of us.

00:49:01

Speaker 2: We like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world, and that can come in so many forms. Today. We hear from Christine in Boston.

00:49:11

Speaker 1: Hi, Dan and Lizzie. I wanted to send in an etiquette salute to my upstairs neighbor. I live in an apartment building with about 14 units

00:49:19

Speaker 1: This morning, I heard a knock on my door. Not a usual occurrence unless I'm expecting someone.

00:49:24

Speaker 1: And it was my neighbor. She wanted to let me know that she noticed that I had received a large package that was sitting downstairs and that the packages stamped team lift as it is £63.

00:49:37

Speaker 1: She came to offer her assistance in carrying it up to my third floor apartment. I honestly couldn't believe it. I had previously only met her once in passing, and without her help, I would have seriously struggled to get the box upstairs. They felt really great to know that even in the midst of a pandemic, when we're trying not to touch anything or go near anyone, that someone would offer that kind of help.

00:49:59

Speaker 1: Thank you for all your advice each week, Best Christine and Boston.

00:50:04

Speaker 2: Oh, that is it is nice to still feel those community moments, You know, I know when I've shared something with a neighbor over the past six weeks, it's kind of felt more important.

00:50:15

Speaker 1: Absolutely. Thank you, Christine, for sharing.

00:50:19

Speaker 2: Thank you for listening.

00:50:21

Speaker 2: And thank

00:50:22

Speaker 1: you to everyone who

00:50:23

Speaker 2: sent us something

00:50:24

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00:50:25

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00:50:27

Speaker 2: Please connect with us and share this show with your friends, family and co workers. And, of course, on social media, you can

00:50:33

Speaker 1: send us your next question comment, feedback or salute by email to awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. You can leave us a message or text at 8 to 858 kind. That's 8028585463 on Twitter. We are at Emily Post Inst on instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute

00:50:50

Speaker 1: and on Facebook Were Awesome Etiquette and the Emily Post Institute.

00:50:55

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00:51:09

Speaker 1: Our show was edited by Chris Albertine, an assistant produced by Brigitte Dowd.

00:51:13

Speaker 1: Thanks for

00:51:14

Speaker 2: Bridget.

00:51:16

Speaker 1: Mm