Episode 300: Not Enough

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social courtesy that's old fashioned.

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Speaker 1: Watch how busy post and

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Speaker 2: damn posts and

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Speaker 1: act as host and hostess.

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Speaker 1: They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person. Really Friendliness.

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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome toe Awesome etiquette,

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Speaker 2: where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty.

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Speaker 1: On today's show, we take your questions on shared spaces in town, home communities etiquette when entering someone's home, inviting other people's guests to an event on the same day of the previous hosts event and honoring someone who has passed. If you couldn't attend the service

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Speaker 2: for awesome etiquette sustaining members, Our question of the week is about distance dating while living with your parents,

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Speaker 1: plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a very important postscript segment on listening.

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Speaker 2: All that coming up.

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Speaker 1: Awesome

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Speaker 2: etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute.

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Speaker 1: I'm Lizzie Post,

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Speaker 2: and I'm Dan Post sending

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Speaker 1: and we are postponing our party. Today is the best way to put it. I know that we had promised a a 300 episode celebration for you and for us today. But we really think that there is a different conversation that is more important right now. So we're going to postpone right because we're not canceling. We're just postponing. That sounds

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Speaker 2: fair to me. This is, ah, hard time to really think about celebrating in the kind of spirit that I want to. So I think a postponement is not only appropriate, but the best possible course.

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Speaker 1: That's right. We had a postscript plan that was a walk down memory lane. We were really going to celebrate the 300 episodes that you've been with us on this journey for, But they're just is, frankly, too much unrest in our country right now that that needs attention and needs voice. And often Dan and I think about how we are supposed to contribute how our audience would like us to contribute to the larger national conversations that happen. And one of the ways that we felt that, uh, Emily Post and the advice we give and the topics we cover on this show are really pertinent to the current conversation is that very word conversation. It's through conversation and How toe have conversations? Well, how to listen well within conversations, how to be respectful. And so we're going to be dedicating our post script segment this show to the idea of conversations. How toe have them well and how? Toe listen, we've certainly been thinking about all this, you know, for our 20th edition, as we write it. But it does take a different tone right now, and there are important things to point out. Lizzie. I

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Speaker 2: think that's really well said, And I am also like you thinking about the role that Emily Post place today, and I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to

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Speaker 2: take some lessons from the way Emily Post has responded in the past. I know as you've been doing work on the 20th edition, you've been looking at previous editions, and particularly as the Cove in 19 Pandemic really started to impact all of us to such a huge extent. We started to look at the wartime editions of Emily Post to see how Emily responded to the demands of her time, and there are some real lessons there, and it is important to be able to change and adapt and recognize what's going on around you and make intelligent decisions about how you behave in the face of those things and in response to things that are there big, that feel bigger than individual relationships but really end up having an impact on those relationships

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Speaker 1: because a lot of our questions come in sort of a week or so after the most the previous show. Excuse me? Our questions section of the show today is gonna be pretty pretty standard etiquette question. But when we get to that post script, that's where we're gonna be focusing on this conversation. So please stay tuned. We are looking forward to talking about this on helping to spread the word and increased perspectives. And, of course, toe. Listen,

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Speaker 2: because we've got to show ahead of us. Shall we get to some questions?

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Speaker 1: Let's get to those questions.

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Speaker 1: Awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions. You can email them toe awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. Leave a voicemail or text at 802858 k i n d. That's 8028585463 or reach us on social media on Twitter. We're at Emily Post. Inst on instagram were at Emily Post Institute and on Facebook were awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your Social Media post so that we know you want your question on the show.

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Speaker 1: Our first

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Speaker 2: question is about a common area conundrum.

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Speaker 2: Hello, Lizzie and Dan. I discovered your awesome podcast earlier this year. I love your work, and I'm so grateful that I have your full archive of episodes to accompany me through this time of quarantine. Speaking of the quarantine, I haven't etiquette question and hope to get your wisdom on how you would handle the situation. I live in a relatively big townhouse community where we do not have yards but share a decent lawn that can be accessed from each of our backdoors As the weather gets warmer. One of the neighbors who we haven't had

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Speaker 1: any interactions

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Speaker 2: with before started letting their kids out to play on this common area without adult supervision.

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Speaker 2: They have four kids age, roughly from 3 to 10 and can get quite noisy when they're running around and playing outside. On the other hand, I am stuck at home with a toddler while trying to get some work done. I would really like a quiet environment when I do get the timeto work during the day. In addition, I would also like to take my toddler out to run on the grass occasionally and then being there basically prevented anyone else from accessing lawn because we're supposed to keep a proper distance at all times, which is impossible with all the kids running around

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Speaker 2: as a parent, I do understand they could be having a very difficult time with four kids in a three bedroom townhouse and would desperately want them out and to get some quiet time whenever possible. But

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Speaker 1: isn't this

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Speaker 2: transferring their own difficulty toe Everyone else living in the community?

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Speaker 2: What

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Speaker 1: do you

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Speaker 2: think I should do about the situation? Or should I just accept it as part of the difficulties we all have during this time and quietly put up with it? Please continue your great work and I look forward to more awesome content. Many thanks, grumpy neighbor.

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Speaker 1: Oh, grumpy neighbor. I don't want you to just quietly put up with it. I wanna help change your perspective and make you feel confident that there are ways to handle situations like this and live with other people well and feel good about our neighbors. So that's that's gonna be the goal here is to hopefully turn you from a grumpy neighbor to an enthusiastic one. So don't be too grumpy. You do have stand. Don't be too. Yeah, you're another person in this community. Of course you have stand, you know. Yeah, you absolutely dio and that's a that's a good place to start. I also would go the route of just double checking through the emails of the management of the Townhouse Association. I don't know if it's a homeowners association or condo homeowners association how they do it in your group, but I would ask your landlord for that if you're renting this space. But I would try to get some sort of sense of whether or not the place I live has made any suggestions, guidelines or rules about spaces like this. Lawn space that you share different places probably have different rules, especially based on how much space there is. And that's one thing that we don't know from this question is exactly how big that lawn spaces is. It enough toe actually accommodate a couple of families socially distance, but maybe not running everywhere. Is it really Onley enough space for maybe four people to be outside Or, you know, two single people socially distance we do. I don't know exactly how big it is, but I would start to find out kind of what I could about that space. And then I do think it's OK. Thio approach your neighbors, but I think the how is gonna be really

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Speaker 2: key. Ah, the how the crux of the question. So it the first piece of advice often here is about building and establishing the relationship. And I like how you've acknowledged in this question that this isn't a neighbor, that you have a lot of history with, that this isn't someone who you've had an opportunity to do that introduction to get to know each other and figure each other out a little bit without a potential conflict being the thing that you're figuring out

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Speaker 1: meeting for the first time over. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and I don't wanna oversee that discussion with the idea that's potentially conflict. It could be that you find real accord with this person, and it's really easy to work something out that works for everyone. Good neighbors on all sides.

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Speaker 2: But there is the potential for conflict here. As you acknowledge, this is a difficult time for everyone. And there are all kinds of things that people are dealing with that might put real constraints on how much compromise is possible for either party. In the same way you have issues related to your work, they might have issues related to schools being closed. And I also really like the awareness that this might be a situation where things are tough all over and that there's going to be a certain onus on you to figure out how you're going to deal with that yourself. And with that as a starting point. The how gets a lot easier because you've already got parameters in your head that they're they're really reasonable. And then it's just matching approach to that already existing reasonable ness and

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Speaker 1: s nice. Dan S O. The I think what you're trying to say is kind of matching the the attitude to the actual reason that you've got going so that the tension and the defensiveness or the carving out the space for me isn't the first thing that's heard in the request right because I think we can tell from grumpy neighbor, especially by the sign off. I'm grumpy. I'm frustrated by this. I am feeling this because it's impacting things. I want to be doing things I need to be doing, and that's a negative mind set to be in. And I think going through all the practical reasons, the good reasons I think can get you to that place of Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't have to fight this hard with emotion because there's practicality here to lean into. So let's look at

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Speaker 2: how etiquette can help. And just in case the kids running and screaming upstairs came through there. So let's take a look at some of the practical elements and some of the places etiquette can help with that half. The first is having not done the introduction, even if you're going to raise the issue that call or in that conversation, start off with a really good introduction. Hi, I'm so and so I live a couple houses down. We haven't had a chance to meet yet. It's been something I've been meaning to do if that's true. Or if not, I'm really glad that

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Speaker 1: haven't had a chance to meet yet eso you acknowledge the

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Speaker 2: situation. Introduce yourself, go through those things and hit your marks, even if it's just, uh to set you up to do the thing you're going to do next. That doesn't mean that it's not honest or legitimate. That's all part of it. And you want to hit those marks and it's gonna help. If someone understands that they're sharing space with you, that you're coming from a human place that you've made an effort to connect, that's gonna make everything else so much easier.

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Speaker 2: Then you get to talk about the thing. There's been something that's been going on. That I've been hoping to talk to you about

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Speaker 2: is now a good time? Could we get together a little bit later? So again you're asking permission to have the conversation? You're giving someone some indication that there's something beyond just a polite introduction that you're wanting to get into, and you're giving them a chance to assess their own capacity to do that. And if they say you know now is not the best time, could we call later? That'd be great. I'd love to. Can I get your number? This is a great time for us to exchange contact information, which I love to do with. The other people live here if you do or not.

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Speaker 1: Dan Dan, do you notice how quiet I'm being is Because I'm just loving your your back and forth of this isn't just one sample script of what you could say. This is like what they might say, how to get to the phone number, exchange If it doesn't get you, like taking us down the different avenues. It's great.

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Speaker 2: I'm so glad I was worried that your silence was you being nervous, saying, No, neighbors aren't really gonna ever talk to each other or exchange phone numbers like that.

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Speaker 1: Oh, no. I mean, it's definitely like, you know, the doe eyed version of it. But we, as we often say, you know, put it in your own language. Be smart about following the conversation as it goes, but know that this is the direction you're hoping to take it. You know that these are the kind of gold marks you'd like to hit. Here's the path forward. That might sound right, but put it in your own voice.

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Speaker 2: Think about what you're asks. Are ahead of time, and it might not be that you want every ask, all stacked on top of each other. Would

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Speaker 1: it be

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Speaker 2: possible for you to better supervise your kids toe? Take less, um, percentage time of the shared space? Because when you take it up, no one else can use it. And while we're at it, if you could help your kids be a little quieter wearing those common spaces because I'm really trying to get some work done and it's loud and distracting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's not going to go over. Well, those are the points, but it sounds. It sounds yucky. I would

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Speaker 2: already be thinking about solutions that you can participate in and mapping out some of those same problems but mapping them out with solutions that also acknowledge that you're willing to participate in help.

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Speaker 2: If what really matters to you is getting your kid outside having time in the backyard with your toddler, I would make that the primary ask.

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Speaker 2: Oh, it's really hard for me to schedule my time outside. I'm trying to do work. I'm going to squeeze it in between naps. If I could talk to you about letting you know a good time each day where I could be out there and count on the availability of a space where I'm not worrying about social distancing. It would be so helpful for me as a parent,

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Speaker 1: especially of a toddler who, you know, needs to toddle at some distance, you know, like move around and

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Speaker 2: and and is obviously gonna be of interest to kids running around. But now you're illustrating the problem that you're having, but you're doing it by offering a solution that you could be a part of. And that might be a way that you could just start to build some rapport, build some standing and start to address some of the issues. I

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Speaker 1: think you can also lean on the fact that this is a different type of thinking about things than we're all used. Thio. You can say things like, You know, I've been surprised. Normally I would feel fine just going right outside with my toddler while your kids are playing and and be thrilled that there's someone there for her toe to see and and look, you know, like interact with in some ways and even just to observe. But with the social distancing. I'm finding myself really nervous about going out or uncertain or I'm not finding the comfort to just walk out the door. And I was wondering if we could talk about how we might establish some practices between our our families so that we can really enjoy that space. You know, it's like you sort of paint that picture of what the experience is like for you because it is different and it's not how you would normally operate. And that's why you wanna have a conversation.

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Speaker 2: I really like your idea of bringing an explicit discussion about the cove. It challenge the social distancing challenge that's layered on top of this whole issue that not having that be some unspoken subtext is really important because everybody is at a slightly different place with it. People have different approaches. People have had different levels of experience out in about dealing with others, and I just think making that a part of that discussion is really advisable. I think that's why

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Speaker 2: it is entirely possible that none of this will work, that it's just not feasible that the other person is not ready or willing to engage.

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Speaker 2: There is a next step that you can go to that doesn't involve you sound proofing your home office and never going outside. And that's you can engage the governance of the town houses. One place that I was thinking about when Lizzie mentioned really get familiar with and comfortable with the rules for the common spaces and how people are expected to behave

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Speaker 2: at the I wanna call the facility. But at this shared living situation that there might be rules about kids being unsupervised, that might actually be an umbrella that's gonna cover everything that you're talking about. And it might be that there is somebody who has standing to address unsupervised Children in a shared or common area. That's really going to deal with everything that you're talking about. And it is about someone who has the authority stepping in, and I wouldn't go that route first. I would try to handle it on a personal level first, but there might be some policy things that you discover or that you become aware of, or they're part of, ah, social distancing policy that are things that, if they were enforced, would resolve this, and you're not the person to be enforcing it, but there is a recourse or away Thio. Turn to that. And that's often been our advice around questions of social distancing when someone's not observing or practicing, what are new rules that are expected of everyone?

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Speaker 1: Grumpy neighbor. We hope that this gives you a couple avenues to pursue, to feel confident, finding some common ground on your common lawn. On Look, This dispute was settled fairly on DSO. Jerry and Eddie are still good friends, Justus. They always work. It's worthwhile to know many ways to settle disputes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah,

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Speaker 1: our next

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Speaker 2: question is about the etiquette of entering a home.

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Speaker 1: Dear Lizzie and Dan, My mother and I are having a disagreement, and I'm hoping you can settle this. Oh, Dan O. She feels as soon as you walk into someone's home or even your own home, you should immediately start saying hello. Even though the person is not in the same room you just walked into. I believe you should wait until you see the person face to face before you say hello. What are your thoughts? Thanks in advance, Devon. Oh, is this a delicious? At a good question?

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Speaker 2: The word home conjures so much in the mind. It is a place of comfort, and hopefully it's a place of safety and refuge, a place where you feel like you can really be yourself.

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Speaker 2: So it's so hard to give etiquette advice to people about how to behave in their home. It's a place where I think that you often want to start off with a really broad understanding that

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Speaker 2: that homes have their own cultures and in the same way

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Speaker 2: consideration respect and honesty, our core principles and values. You could take everywhere, manners change all the time, and homes can be their own cultures. And the expected manner can really vary from one house to the house, sitting next to it on the block

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Speaker 1: to a parent and child who may not live together anymore but did once upon a time, yes,

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Speaker 2: and the other just delicious. Part of this question is that it speaks to something in my personal home life, which is that I have, and I would never call it a pet peeve. I don't like the idea of pet peeves, but I really dislike yelling room to room to be. It's so demanding. It's so

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Speaker 1: I need your

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Speaker 2: attention, and I don't have the energy or the wherewithal to go address you. So I'm just going to shout it from across the house, and

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Speaker 2: I know that it happens. I know there are 1000 good reasons it happens, and it's something I really think is worth paying attention to. And although manners air mutable, fungible, changeable, when you're talking about human relationships, treating people with consideration, respect and honesty

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Speaker 2: is an important baseline, and I think that's about how you treat people.

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Speaker 1: So Dan says all that, and he couched it first by saying, in different homes think of things different ways. We shouted across my home all the time on DNO body felt bad about it or when they did. That's when they said, Wait, will you just come here, please? And it wasn't considered like a giant infraction upon the home, but you can hear dance in his own home. This is something that is, it's important to him. It's what makes him feel comfortable in his house. So between he, Pooja and the girls, my guess is that's gonna be something you talk about. As you know, the girls grow up and maybe start trying to develop habits and you say, Hey, not in my house, you know what I mean? And I liked that you started by saying, You know, homes are different, people have different feelings in them. Typically, it's not considered polite to shout at people. And I am. I am with my cousin on the deep dive into the idea that, like, just come find me Don't don't be lazy in that way. But I also see other people's points about efficiency. And why call out why walk halfway across the house and disruptor let go of the things I'm holding onto while I'm trying to ask you a question so that I don't have to let go of them. Like, you know, I'm imagining all the funny situations we get into where you're like. I can't leave the thing I'm doing. I've got dough on my hands or I've got this in my I'm halfway just out of the shower. All the different reasons we might shout to each other because it's not convenient to just walk across the house. At that particular moment, I could see the efficiency. Aiken, see the just general respect side of it I don't think it's a little issue. I think it is something that could be grating for some people. Dan is giving me heavy nods across the face time right now, but I recognize that it's it's not. Every person feels this way kind of a thing. Well, let's drill

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Speaker 2: down on the specifics of this

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Speaker 1: situation a little bit. I want to get into it. I want to get into it because the first, the first thing that's brought up right, is upon entering the home. So we're not talking about across home like family within family doors. Close. We're talking about announcing your entrance.

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Speaker 2: So here's my version of this.

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Speaker 2: If I'm entering a home that I am comfortable enough toe enter

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Speaker 2: without the person greeting me at the door, it tells me already that there's an incredible amount of familiarity, that this is a place I'm welcome and that it's it's an expectation from everyone involved that I could walk through the door. It's either my house or the house of my parents who live next door. And

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Speaker 2: if it's my parents who live next door where I am, welcome toe open that front door and walk through it any time. I still wouldn't do that without announcing my arrival just out of a decent respect for their privacy and just awareness of what's going on in their home. The way

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Speaker 1: that what is your announced? That I was gonna say, What's your announcement style?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. If so, if I see someone, their kitchen, living room often the case Hi hello. But even if I see him there, oftentimes I say out loud knock, knock and it's this acknowledgement. It's like there's a hint of a question to it, and it's also I'm here and it's really effective. It works for me. It's essentially saying, Yeah, I'm here and maybe I'm even in the next room already. But I'm giving you some alert, some warning that I'm here to me. That's Ah version of it. That might be what's going on here with the hello. It's like an announcement that I've arrived, that I'm that I'm here, and

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Speaker 2: in some ways I don't think that's a terrible idea. It's not landing the way I want it to land. If I'm on the receiving end of it, I'd say, you know, Mom, it's totally okay if you walk into the house. If you just come find me where I am before you announce that you've arrived and that alone might be enough that you're you're getting the connection of the engagement.

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Speaker 1: I'm with you. I tend Thio. If it's if it's not my house When I'm entering house, I tend to do the II. Both knock on the door and say, Knock, knock. I'm here or not knock Hello, you know, and it depends on if I'm expected or not expected. If there's a doorbell and I'm unexpected, I'll often go for that and just wait. But I think we're talking about homes. You feel comfortable kind of walking into, um, where it wouldn't be strange for you to do so. I'm totally with you, and I don't think that needs to be something that you wait until you see the other person face to face to Dio. But what do you think about when it's your own home? So and I don't currently have anyone living with me, so I don't have to experience this, and Sunny comes running up gleefully immediately. So it's just not an issue, but in your home when pooches Home and you walk in the door after, you know, coming back from lunch or whatever it is that you've been off doing. And she's not right there in the kitchen, which you can see from the front door. Do you shout, Hey, honey, I'm home. Do you wait to go find her in the house to say hello? Because that's the big, big debate. I'm seeing this question,

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Speaker 2: and the answer is, it's such a great question. I don't know. I think I probably do both. I think I do all three. I think there probably times I come in and I just go right to the kitchen, warm up my coffee and go on to my thing. And I I'm aware that she's upstairs on a call or downstairs with the girls or something.

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Speaker 2: There are other times where I come in and I know she's downstairs. I just sort of shout down. I admit I do it high Bhuj. I'm back, just grabbing a coffee. I'm heading back outside in a minute, and then there are other times

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Speaker 1: it can be effective where

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Speaker 2: I walk into the House CEO pooches in here. I want to go say hi. I haven't seen her all day before I head back outside, mowed the lawn. Eso it's there really isn't all three. Answer.

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Speaker 1: Devon, I think there you have it. I was going to say, I think there you have it. I think Dan is being so sheepish. You guys, it's like he's like e. I know. I just said I do the thing I don't want to do I think it's perfectly normal because I think you had just based on the circumstances. And I think for Devon, that's our tiebreaking answer. Probably, which is that you adjust for the circumstances that that both you and your mother are right and that there are reasons where you might choose one particular method over the other. And you and your mother may not agree on exactly when those happen, but to recognize that both are okay. I think a long as you're trying to put people at ease in their own home right.

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Speaker 2: I like that trying to put people at ease because it's a little bit about you and how you feel. But then also your mother, how she feels and

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Speaker 1: because you're hearing because she's actually telling you because you're knowing and vice versa. You know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: And in this equation, I've got to say, I'm I'm you, Devon. I'm the one who says, Bottom line, I don't like this. And

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Speaker 2: just making that an explicit, um, ask of the people I live with is enoughto maybe move the needle on the decision making that's that's fair and honest decision making about when you might do it. And at the same time, it's probably not realistic to expect that this never happens again, either.

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Speaker 2: Devon, I

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Speaker 1: know we haven't been

00:28:20

Speaker 2: ableto settle the agreement with an answer on one side or the other, but I'm hoping that we've given enough for you to talk about. That may be what's been a disagreement can be something where you find a little accord with your mother.

00:28:33

Speaker 1: How do you go about being thought? What are you doing every time I try only make things worse? Is there some particular method of being thoughtful that works every time?

00:28:47

Speaker 1: Our next question is titled Friendly Fire. Hello,

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Speaker 2: Lizzie and Dan. My daughter just experienced on etiquette Dilemma. She was invited to a fire and friend A's backyard friend be had an out of town guest. She

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Speaker 1: wanted

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Speaker 2: to do something fun with the out of town guests and didn't feel comfortable asking Friend A if she could bring the out of town guests. So far, so good.

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Speaker 2: But then friend be decided to have her own fire and invited friends that she knew had been invited to friend. Ace event. This seemed so wrong to my daughter. What

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Speaker 1: are your

00:29:21

Speaker 2: thoughts Sincerely? D

00:29:24

Speaker 1: Definitely. It seems. It's like it's the thing you don't want to do, which is undercut someone's already established party. I don't know if this is happening during this sort of quarantine or if this question is from earlier. So I don't know if if part of the idea is not not bringing it out of town guest with you somewhere right now, I don't know if that's a part of it. My guess is that it's from before and that we're really just dealing with kind of more of a basic level of, you know, just friend was inviting everyone to event. Other friend had an out of town guests, rather than just seeing if the out of town guests could come because, technically, you're not supposed to just invite people right? We talk about that in the host guest dance, you know, And then so Friend B throws her own party on the same night, invites the same guest. That's where it goes wrong. It's like you could have thrown it on a different night that your friend is in town, or you could have invited a different guest list. But doing both those things strikes it as wrong in my in my etiquette brain. Me two eyes,

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Speaker 2: my big thought when I when I first read this question, I had a hard time tracking it because I just It was almost like my brain couldn't believe it. They either someone would intentionally undercut someone else's party like that or just be so inconsiderate. And it probably my guess is it didn't occur to them. But it did occur to your daughter, and I also just wanted to affirm good work because there's something about this that doesn't feel fair. And the fact that you're daughter felt that,

00:30:59

Speaker 2: um to me is something toe. Take some pride in as a parent, and I would trust her instinct about it if it felt rude or wrong that that she's probably picking up on something that's going on there, and that's unfortunate. But I think that you can also affirm that and tell her that you're proud of her, for for sensing that and feeling that maybe the injustice of it a little bit.

00:31:20

Speaker 1: And I think that the way that that you support your friend and that you should you show that you know, is by not going to the other party that's now been created. If you're one of the guests that's been invited to both, now go to the one that you said yes to First don't change plans unless the host of Party A decides. You know what? Let's just all do that party instead, like seem to have worked out better anyway, like that that happens every now and again. But for the most part, I think your daughters being on point and then the follow up move is go to the party that you said you were going to go to originally, you tend to stick to the first invitation that you accept

00:32:01

Speaker 2: it probably even a good idea if you really want to. And you haven't accepted the invitation already that you support that original event. If you feel this is going on and that's what you want to do, I think it's a relatively easy choice to make and a good, effective way to do it.

00:32:17

Speaker 1: As Dan mentioned earlier, I don't think this person probably did this maliciously. This is probably more thoughtless than it is intentional. I mean, unless unless this this group has a really mean girls thing going on with it, which doesn't really sound like but one thing to remember when this kind of a thing happens to you is that it's often just someone trying Thio. They are just trying to make their own plans work, and they have. They have not paid attention to you and doing that in doing so, which is what's wrong? Um, it's it's why it makes it not a good etiquette moment. But it also can happen and it's not. It's not often an intentional. I want Thio make friend A's party terrible and not happen, and I'm going to steal all her guests and you know, I I don't get that sense from this. It's sense more. I get the sense more like Oh my friend is only in town for this day. I am just going to invite everybody and do my own thing with it rather than trying to impose an extra guests elsewhere. And then I think the super thoughtless thing happens where you really aren't thinking when you start inviting people who were invited to friend Days Party de. We hope that this helps your daughter with friends A and B and for having moments to look back on for her own hosting choices in the future. That's good.

00:33:34

Speaker 1: Shall we all agree that any time one of us is starting to be selfish or rude or inconsiderate,

00:33:40

Speaker 1: that's to remind us to be courteous,

00:33:42

Speaker 1: and it waas?

00:33:47

Speaker 2: Our next question is about a dearly departed neighbor.

00:33:50

Speaker 1: Dear Lizzie and Dan. Thank you so much for your podcast. It's always great to learn and be reminded of ways to become more positively engaged with others. A wonderfully kind neighbor of mine recently passed away. Her passing is a significant loss to several of us in the neighborhood, and she remains an inspiration.

00:34:09

Speaker 1: She spent a week in the hospital before succumbing to her ailment,

00:34:13

Speaker 1: and sadly, that we concluded her birthday and Mother's Day. She was not allowed visitors during that time do the concerns over Cove in 19.

00:34:23

Speaker 1: I've never met any of her family, but made it a point to express my condolences when I saw them checking on her home after her passing, as did other neighbors. In our brief conversations, it became apparent that our views concerning social distancing and the nature of the virus differ

00:34:39

Speaker 1: because of concerns related to the virus. Most neighbors, including myself, chose not to attend the memorial service. It was a very difficult decision as my neighbor was truly a great lady, and I feel awful for her family's loss. I would like to honor her memory and convey my sympathies by making a contribution to a charity listed in her obituary.

00:35:01

Speaker 1: My question relates to the optional notification of the contribution.

00:35:07

Speaker 1: I would like to have the charity send a notification to the family so they know that although I didn't attend the service, they and their loved one, my neighbor, are very much in my thoughts. The mailing address of my neighbors eldest adult can be found online, but is it creepy to request that the notification be sent to an address that wasn't provided directly to me by a family member. Where does one draw the line when wanting to respect a person's privacy while wanting to convey heartfelt condolences? Would it be best to have the notification mailed to my deceased neighbors address so the family will hopefully and eventually receive it? Or is the notification of the contribution self serving and best not sent it all?

00:35:53

Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your insights and for reminding us of the internal importance of good etiquette all the best. Tom

00:36:00

Speaker 2: Tom. We'd like to start by offering our condolences to you and to your community. It sounds like you've lost someone. That was, as you described her, an inspiration, and that could be a difficult time.

00:36:11

Speaker 2: I also want to applaud you, because in that difficult time there is so much good going on. You have hit so many of the marks that we would say are important from a netiquette perspective. When someone passes, you've made an effort to personally express your sympathy to people that you've seen, even if it's just coming and going from that house. That's the location that is a shared place right now. The

00:36:39

Speaker 2: effort that you made to send a condolence note. Also really admirable, really important and an important step in the etiquette at this time and also reading the obituaries and paying attention to what someone's asked for what their wishes are in regards to charitable donations made in their name, maybe even in lieu of flowers and those air three just really good moves on your part. So

00:37:02

Speaker 2: great work and the forward thinking about how to do it. Well, it means that I I trust you're gonna continue to keep it up.

00:37:09

Speaker 2: So let's talk about the etiquette of that. How? How is it appropriate to contact someone under what circumstances is this one of those?

00:37:16

Speaker 1: Because it is, it's It's funny. It's funny how it can feel creepy and and like an imposition, even though, you know, reaching out with condolences is something you're supposed to do or or letting people know that you did participate in some form of honoring their deceased. It's a funny line cousin.

00:37:35

Speaker 2: It is. And that doesn't mean that there are sort of good choices to make that there isn't, ah, hierarchy that you can pay attention to so that you make good choices whether you observe it or not. So the first thing to do is to look for an address that's been provided, and that might be in the obituary. The organization that you're donating to might have it. I don't think that was the case here. Another option that Lizzie had mentioned to me that I think is a great one is that you could call the funeral home or the church or place of worship, that having the service, that they might have even more information or a point of contact that that they've been directed to give to people who have this kind of question so that that's getting your good official answer. In the absence of that, let's start talking about some of the choices.

00:38:21

Speaker 1: Can I throw just one more out there as a possibility? Onley. Because you're a neighbor and you've had the chance to meet these people at the house before. It might be the kind of thing where, if you do see them in the next day or two, stopping by the house, that that's stopping them and asking them. I just wanted Thio nowhere to send things, and I wasn't sure which address to use. That might be a possibility since we happen to be in the neighborhood and that that kind of behavior has already gone on

00:38:51

Speaker 2: with neighbors. If you don't have a chance to do that in the absence of a firm answer in your hands, if you're weighing the decision between the address of the person who passed that, you know and what is a public address, whether it's been provided to you or not for a family member,

00:39:12

Speaker 1: I'm thinking

00:39:12

Speaker 2: I'm probably going to go with the person I'm most connected to, and I'm going to trust the way you are kind of trusting parenthetically in your question that hopefully and eventually it's going to find the right person. There will be some kind of system in place to deal with mail that arrives at this house, and you're not gonna be the only one in this situation. So in some ways I think that's a reasonable assumption to make, and I don't think it's too big of a stretch to assume that the person who's going to be cataloging this or responding to condolence notes will receive that eventually.

00:39:46

Speaker 1: One of the things to remember with Tom's particular situation to is that this is about a notification of a donation as opposed to the condolence itself. And the reason I make that distinction or bring it up is just because it can feel. And I know some people might be a little bit hesitant to think about sending

00:40:07

Speaker 1: it condolence note to the family. But to the house of the deceased, who was the only person in that house, you know, and I think it z both. It's one of those spaces where it kind of happens sometimes because people don't know any other address. And they do want to make the communication, but that the particular thing we're looking at here is a notification about a donation. And, um, in some ways it's It's not like saying so sorry for your loss to the empty house,

00:40:38

Speaker 2: you know, and a part of Tom's intention. He states this in. The question with that notification is toe alert the family to the fact that even though he wasn't at the funeral service itself, that this person had some significance in his life and he's thinking about her and thinking about the family at this time, and

00:40:58

Speaker 2: that's a lot to communicate through a message and

00:41:03

Speaker 1: through a notification, sent just saying, Yeah, but But it does actually come across. It will,

00:41:09

Speaker 2: And it will come across to the family when they see all of those donations in their mother's name. And a lot of them are coming from the community that she lived in. They will. I'm trusting here, get the message that you want to deliver, even if you're not able to deliver it in its totality yourself that what you do will be part of that.

00:41:32

Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly know exactly. That's a good way to think of it. And I think also people who are grieving understand that not everybody makes a donation with their name attached. Sometimes it is anonymous, and you kind of take that as Dan, saying that collective feeling of support and honoring rather than parse it out and and nitpick Who was there verse Who wasn't there? Although I also don't want to say that and diminish your desire to let them know. Hey, I I wanted Thio. I wanted to be there in the ways that I could. Andi. I think that that's also worthy of expression.

00:42:10

Speaker 1: So there is another group to lean on that we haven't mentioned yet. And that's your neighbors. You've mentioned that other neighbors had spoken of the loss or that you've seen them going up to the house, um, to introduce themselves to the family, asking them if they happen to have an address or know of a good address. That sort of thing is also something that you could do which we we talk about leaning on the neighborhood grapevine. That way. Um, that can be something you could do that's not necessarily gossip or going behind someone's back. That's, I think, a good form of it.

00:42:42

Speaker 2: Absolutely. Ah, final thought has to do with broadly whether it's appropriate to find someone's address online and reach out to them. And that is such a broad thing that you can't say, Oh, yes, it's OK or no, it's not OK. You really got to be thinking about your intentions with it. This is one of those places where I'd want to say In the absence of other options, I would err on the side of doing it that when someone passes expressions of sympathy and condolence, just letting someone know that you made a donation in their name as they requested. UM, is all an important part of grieving and healing. And oftentimes the biggest hurdle Thio good communication around someone's death is people's fears about awkwardness or doing the wrong thing or saying the wrong thing. And getting over that inhibition is often I was one of the biggest steps Thio really being part of the comfort and support that people would like to be. So

00:43:45

Speaker 2: I don't think there would be anything wrong with sending the notification to the family member who's address you found. I think you've got some better options here, or some options that I would lean on first. But I don't think that there would be anything particularly rude about it if that was the option that was in front of you and you decided to do it.

00:44:03

Speaker 1: Tom, we hope this answer helps.

00:44:08

Speaker 1: Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers. Toe awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. Leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 k i n d. That's 8028585463 or you can reach us on

00:44:24

Speaker 2: social media on Twitter. We're at Emily Post inst on instagram were at Emily Post Institute

00:44:30

Speaker 1: and on Facebook were awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social

00:44:36

Speaker 2: media posts so that we know you want your question on the show. Mm,

00:44:43

Speaker 2: mhm.

00:44:46

Speaker 2: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer in the topics we cover. And

00:44:52

Speaker 1: today we

00:44:52

Speaker 2: hear from Midwest Mourner about the Question and Episode 2 97 about putting checks in condolence cards

00:45:00

Speaker 2: Lizzie and Dan. Last week's question regarding checks included in condolence cards quite surprised me, as in the community I grew up in. This is very common in many cases at the funeral home where the Wake or rosary services held. There are donation envelopes next to the book where Mourners sign in for remembrance. When my father died several years ago, many friends left cash or checks in those envelopes meant to defray the many costs incurred and funeral planning, many in small amounts and a few very generous donations. Since most funerals are unexpected sudden expenses, these small offerings are helpful to most rarely does anyone suggest where the money should be spent. It's meant to help the family get through a tough time. My understanding is the money is simply meant to help with those sudden expenses. A gravestone, medical bills, getting the spouse through a time of grief until the person combined employment.

00:45:53

Speaker 2: We send thank you cards to everyone, often with relatives gathering to write them all in one sitting. If a family doesn't need the donated money, they might use it to sponsor a community improvement in the name of the beloved deceased.

00:46:06

Speaker 2: I hesitate to go on at length. But since moving to bigger cities, I'm shocked to find how funerals air managed, specifically expecting the family to cater a luncheon at their own expense. Back home, every church has a funeral committee with volunteers prearranged to bring sandwiches, salads and desserts to provide a time of support to the grieving at no cost to them other than returning the favor for the next family. Certainly not everyone belongs to a church these days, but we all need the support of community.

00:46:36

Speaker 2: I wonder if the practice of offering a donation is more common in rural areas or with older folks. I grew up in a farming community where many families scrape by working multiple jobs in addition to farming. My father also grew up during the Depression era, and I can easily see this becoming a practice during such tough times. Perhaps it was established in World War Two wartime, when family sacrificed so much to support the war effort that burying their lost soldiers was indeed a financial difficulty. I hope sharing my experience with this practice can help others feel more at ease accepting such kindness, whether grieving or supporting a loved one who is grieving sincerely, Midwest Mourner.

00:47:16

Speaker 1: And this is what I love about this show. You get to hear someone else's perspective, someone else's customs in the community that they grew up in. And it's the very end sentence that Midwest Warner has given us. I hope sharing my experience with this practice can help others feel more at ease accepting such kindness, whether grieving or supporting a loved one who is grieving to me. It's that you wanna using the word, but you want to feel normal. You want to feel like it's okay. You want to feel that relief, not the angst. And I think That's what a lot of, um, etiquette in the goals we have on the show or to help relieve any kind of that awkward question in your mind and instead be able to move forward with confidence. And I just I loved how Midwest Warner ended

00:48:01

Speaker 2: that it is a poetic thought, and I thought the whole piece of feedback was really well written. It was a well developed thought, and it definitely is broadened by perspective on this topic.

00:48:13

Speaker 1: Absolutely. We've talked before about how we're aware that in different communities grieving and support of those who are grieving, those who have just lost somebody how it does vary. And we were aware that in some communities a donation does happen, but not in all. And it wasn't certain. I remember this question exactly where, um, or if that was common to the community, that the question was coming from. But it's again. It's about opening up sharing and helping people understand how to feel good moving forward. Thank you, Midwest Mourner, for your feedback, we really appreciate it

00:48:48

Speaker 2: and thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please do keep them coming. You can send your next piece of feedback or update toe awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com or leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463

00:49:05

Speaker 1: It's time for our post script segment, where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette, and this week we're listening. We have wondered what we should say, what we shouldn't say, what would be appropriate to say from our brand from the two of us personally, and it's really difficult because there is so much legitimate unrest. Legitimate pain on DLA jit emit an unnecessary suffering going on due to systemic racism in the United States.

00:49:40

Speaker 1: It's something that

00:49:43

Speaker 1: can be Maura part of the conversation than it has been, and that's something that I would personally like to vow to continue and work harder to carry forward.

00:49:54

Speaker 1: And one of the places where I think that we as a company and as people who talk about conversation and having conversation well can do is to start to look at the way we suggest conversations happen, and one of the things that I really want to change in the way we discuss conversations is three idea off uncomfortable conversations and you hear us talk on this show about the three tiers of conversation here at the Emily Post Institute. You've heard, and on this show, you've heard us talk about Tier one being that low hanging fruit, that kind of trustworthy conversation that you can have with anybody, right? The weather is the big classic example, right? Entertainment eso that's movies, books, music, Um, often oftentimes, even things like food, really low hanging fruit for conversation. And we talk about things like politics and religion and medical and finances as Tier two and three topics that you just might wanna be a little more careful about when you bring them up. And one of the things I would really love to see us change and thio work towards is to not just use politeness as a way to silence difficult conversations. The lieutenant governor of Minnesota, Peggy Flanagan, had said, You know, there's a phrase Minnesota Nice, and she said, often topics like race and topics like privilege get swept into the unpleasant category, and we don't want to make people upset when we talk about them, and we would really like to recognize that. Yes, they can be uncomfortable topics, but that doesn't mean that they should be avoided from polite conversation. It doesn't mean that they should Onley be labeled as unpleasant. And it does mean that we have to work harder to find ways to talk about these things respectfully so they could be continually talked about openly, not just during moments of unrest.

00:52:10

Speaker 2: Lizzie Post. I think that's so well said. And as I think about the challenges that a really difficult conversation or potentially really difficult or painful conversation present

00:52:24

Speaker 2: from a personal perspective, I start toe tell myself that

00:52:30

Speaker 2: my first conversation skill is listening

00:52:33

Speaker 2: and that when I'm not sure what to say or I don't know how I feel about something, it doesn't mean I can't participate in a conversation that often times the best point of access is a question. Often times the best point of access is

00:52:49

Speaker 2: curiosity and interest, and that that can carry you so far. It could be a really, really important first step, and oftentimes is the most appropriate first step. And

00:53:03

Speaker 2: this is one of those moments where that capacity toe listen to connect into empathize in an active way

00:53:11

Speaker 2: is something that I'm really keying on is maybe the most significant contribution that I can make. And in terms of sharing in terms of talking from a platform where there is an audience, I think it's one of the most important concepts that I can share with people because I'm learning so much right now. And what I keep reminding myself is keep listening. Keep thinking and be ready to draw this conversation out. Be ready to approach. It is something that I'm engaged with for a long time because those ideas will just state. And

00:53:47

Speaker 2: I'm hoping that as ah, perspective starts to emerge, that's better and better informed that the ideas about what's appropriate to say you're gonna be clearer to me. So that's just from a really personal place where I'm approaching this from a public platform and that that

00:54:04

Speaker 2: that participation in the conversation I don't think it requires you to know and doesn't require you to be sure about where you're coming from. Even

00:54:12

Speaker 1: Dan, what are some of the keep um, indicators of being a good listener? What are some of the things we can do to be a good listener because I think, ah, lot of people think that they are open and and feel like they would be receptive to conversations. But at the same time, it's amazing how often our desire to defend our own desire to be heard stops us from being good listeners. And and we end up furthering a problem that an issue that we're trying thio or that we think we're trying Thio actually help. What are some of the points of being a good listener? How does how does listening well look and sound?

00:54:59

Speaker 2: Well, in some ways, you're asking the right question in terms of how does it look? Because in person

00:55:06

Speaker 2: it has a physical presence. Listening is a posture. There is an attention that comes with listening and some elements of of your physical presence that can really communicate that include eye contact on attentive, upright posture of a leaning in, um, to the engagement that you're having with someone else postures. Physical postures that air open and available are also really strong indicators to people that they're being listened to and that they're being heard. And now that's not always possible. If you're having a conversation at a distance or through some, uh, something like a phone R

00:55:46

Speaker 1: d m or something like that. Yeah, but

00:55:49

Speaker 2: you can think about ways that you can give the indication that you're still there, that you're still president, that you're still listening and that you're not necessarily waiting for your turn to interject.

00:55:58

Speaker 1: Well, there's the things that you say that air nonverbal, but our sounds right. I mean, often in a conversation when when we're doing the listening portion were nodding our head or our facial expression is matching that of what we're hearing. So if it's to be sympathetic, our faces showing that if it's, uh, toe laugh, you know our faces showing that ifit's, you know to take someone seriously, you know, often we're pulling ah, smile off our face, but not replacing it with a frown. Those kind of things. They're part of the listening. Even though they're not verbal,

00:56:34

Speaker 2: they absolutely are. And there's another part of the listening that doesn't involve action in the positive sense but involves restraint that oftentimes the act of listening requires that you don't say the thing that you're thinking, and it's not because it's inappropriate, but that Maybe it's just not the moment for response. Maybe your role at that moment is toe listen and to continue listening toe, listen to the next point and the next point and the next point, and

00:57:03

Speaker 2: that there's a skill toe learning to attenuate. You're listening to draw it out over longer and longer periods of time. And it's one of the most important listening skills because it opens you up to Mawr and Mawr and Mawr. And sometimes that requires a little bit of restraint, a little bit of holding back, even if what you could contribute has value from a certain perspective, it's about making room or making space for other people to participate.

00:57:31

Speaker 1: There are times when we're talking and giving advice about apologies, where we recognize that sometimes an apology isn't always going to be that moment, where both parties are admitting places where they failed the relationship. Andi, I think that that can also be a skill that you transfer over to this moment of listening where you say, I'm not going to try to show my perspective right now. I'm not going to try to like what brought me here was when you said kind of like you're waiting to talk. Sometimes eliminating that sense of urgency that you're ready to add to the conversation is a big part of listening and so recognizing that there will be times for you to share your perspective, but that if you're dealing with somebody who is really trying to express their own and who has not both systemically and often within communities and within friendships felt comfortable or confident expressing, um, themselves and having their perspective shared that this is a time to focus on them and to to not try to make it about you and your experience with it, too. If you aren't a part of a group that is really hurting and really being systemically attacked, I'll tell you,

00:58:52

Speaker 2: there's a verbal skill that starts to come into play. That's a way to really show you've been listening. That's quite simple. And that's just repeating back something that you've just heard, that when somebody tells you something, if you can reflect that back to them, it is so affirming. And it tells someone that not only were you listening, but you've heard that you digested it. You took some ownership of it. You can express it yourself in your own words. It really illustrates or demonstrates or shows someone an integrated listening. Um, that is quite powerful, and it's a skill that sounds really simple, but it's such an effective tool. The slightly more complicated version, or sort of the next step version of engaging with listening involves asking a question or following up with a point that's been made or something that's been said, asking for more detail, further elaboration. Maybe if it's something that you've heard that's factual, asking how that made someone feel or how they reflect on that or think about that. If what you're talking about is something that is third party or fact based, that you can ask for someone's opinions or reflections on it if they're comfortable sharing them. And that's another way to show deeper interest and just try to draw conversation into places that it might not otherwise go. It's a way to give someone a signal that you're willing to do that and go to those places.

01:00:19

Speaker 1: Dan. I can picture here that there are ways to respond that they're gonna be helpful. But I also know that so many well intentioned responses really don't sound good to the person hearing them. And there I feel like there's a lot of finesse that it actually takes when you're thinking about how to respond to someone who's sharing ah perspective with you and how to not be asking questions that make them the spokesperson. You know, for the community that they belong Thio not asking them questions, almost like forcing them to have to explain their experience to you. I think there is a delicate side to this to getting that kind of good quality conversation where someone is feeling supported and heard and someone else feels like they're participating in the supporting and listening. But without then either, pushing for too much extra info or coming across is just going mhm,

01:01:22

Speaker 1: mhm. You know, it's it's kind of like you could see both ends of someone leaning in far and

01:01:29

Speaker 2: going too far

01:01:30

Speaker 1: really start Yeah, going too far and putting someone in an uncomfortable place or the other way of not leaning in enough and and not feeling like you're part

01:01:39

Speaker 2: of it enough. In some ways, I think it's most helpful to think really specifically, and I think one way that you can ask a question that maybe isn't too prying or personal. That still shows you're engaged and interested and and wanting Thio Listen mawr.

01:01:55

Speaker 2: But that it's part of an active process would be to ask a question that's maybe not directly about someone else, but about how they think you could best respond. Or you might ask. What I'm really curious about is what you would like to hear most from an ally or from me. Or if you had the ear of the important political leader who could make this decision, What is it that you would want to tell them? And that might be a way toe. Ask the question in a way that's engaged but not too too personal and maybe even re engages with the idea that you're part of it, also unwilling to continue to be part of it. But you want a perspective on that.

01:02:34

Speaker 2: That's sort of my immediate thought to that, because it is, it's it's Ah, I don't want to say it's a narrow path to find, but it's a path between two extremes of being checked out and being a little too much

01:02:46

Speaker 1: one of our train. The trainers. Kimberly Parker, who runs Parker Charm out in Southern California, posted a message from her friend that her friend had texted to her. Excuse me, and it said were walking together, But I'm standing beside you and following your lead. This isn't about me. It's about what you need and me standing up for that. What I liked about seeing Kimberly's friends support her in this way was that it's a support that has driven by Kimberly and what she would need and what's going to be supportive for her. It's much like that platinum rule of thinking where you're not saying I'm going to do it this way, the golden role because this is how I would want it done for me, or this is what I would want people reaching out to me. It says, I'm thinking of you and I'm gonna be asking you what you need right now.

01:03:43

Speaker 2: I love how you're thinking about the platinum rule. I'm also trying to in the moment observe the lesson that I'm trying to engage, which is listening and, and listen to that,

01:03:53

Speaker 1: that

01:03:53

Speaker 2: idea of walking with you standing up for you

01:03:57

Speaker 1: but following your lead that was the part for me that I loved so much about what Kimberly's friend texted her. I'm following your lead. To me, that was, that was respect.

01:04:07

Speaker 2: So in thinking about allowing others to take the lead but still participating, uh, there are so many points of etiquette that that start toe inform all of our decision making. There's host guest concepts that come into play. If you if you really think broadly about your ability to participate, engage and also take some direction so that we all get somewhere together these air opportunities or things that we thought about, for how we could use etiquette to address what's going on in the moment. And oftentimes Lizzie and I will return to core principles or core values when we're really looking for sort of essential messages and consideration.

01:04:52

Speaker 1: Classics er, respect and

01:04:54

Speaker 2: honesty are such pillars for us. There are such core values and principles, and we lean on them so much. Oftentimes, when we think about what we have to contribute, its its advocacy for those ideas and concepts, and the challenge for us is that that's really not enough right now that if we're talking about Lizzie and I speaking about systemic racism, telling people to be considerate and respectful and honest?

01:05:20

Speaker 2: Isn't it enough? It's not addressing safety on a fundamental level, and we stay on this show all the time that safety supersedes etiquette. So how we engage with a conversation that

01:05:35

Speaker 2: that, frankly, is on a level where it's different and more important than the usual social niceties that we talk about, even as expressions of core principles and values. It's a real challenge for us, and

01:05:50

Speaker 2: what we said to ourselves intentionally was, We're going to spend some time listening. And the more we listened, the more we heard quite specifically, that ideas about consideration, respect and honesty don't fundamentally address the underlying issues that are the cause of the unrest that the country is feeling right now. And

01:06:12

Speaker 2: Thio take a step

01:06:14

Speaker 2: toe, learn what we could talk about and what we could say in a way that really contributes to that conversation requires more listening from us, and we're learning. We're starting to get little ideas, little hints about

01:06:26

Speaker 2: parts of that conversation that we can participate in that are worthwhile. That will make an impact, and we'll have it have the potential to make a difference in a really significant way. But we're not there yet. We're still learning before we can really offer that.

01:06:40

Speaker 1: One of the places that we have been paying attention to help educate ourselves and to listen and toe help make change is an organization called Campaign 01 of the campaigns that they have going in particular called eight Can't Wait Eyes something. Dan and I are both really in supportive. We ask you all the time to donate, tow us and our show and to keep our show on the air. I personally have donated to Campaign Zero and felt really good about making that a recurring donation, um, in the way that I could. And if you can't make donations to organizations like this or to other organizations that are going to help end systemic racism in the United States, consider following these organizations and amplifying their voice. Andi, using your voice to make change happen and never forget that your vote also counts.

01:07:39

Speaker 2: So we've really committed ourselves to listening, and we get toe talking to these microphones once a week. But we also get the incredible insight that comes from all of you and we are listening. We are really curious your thoughts. We want to continue this conversation because it matters and we want to continue to have this conversation well, and we're hoping that you will be a part of that and that you will continue to help us to have this conversation well,

01:08:05

Speaker 1: so reach out to us. Add your voice to the perspectives that we gather as we continue this show and our other work on the subject of etiquette. We are listening, and we promise to continue to listen beyond this point in time.

01:08:31

Speaker 2: We like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world, and that can come in so many forms. Today.

01:08:41

Speaker 1: We have a

01:08:41

Speaker 2: salute from Lynn in Texas.

01:08:44

Speaker 1: We should make a note. This salute comes prior to the events of the last

01:08:47

Speaker 2: two weeks.

01:08:49

Speaker 2: Hi, Lizzie and Dan. Our daughter is a graduate student at the University of Florida. When her spring break job hunting trip to New York was foiled because of Covad 19 she drove an hour and a half to the Jacksonville, Florida, airport, parked her car in short term parking and flew home to our house in Texas. It was only going to be for five days. As you know, things changed very quickly with the pandemic, and we soon found out the university was not going to be resuming her graduate program as scheduled. But Yikes, her car was just sitting there at the airport, racking up the fees. Did I mention in short term parking?

01:09:25

Speaker 2: Luckily, her good friend from undergrad Mary was visiting her family in Jacksonville the next week. So they kindly picked up Hannah's car and took it to their house. Thank you, Mattingly's, but it doesn't end there. Mary's dad, a captain in the Navy, got orders and moved two weeks later. Oh, no, the car. Luckily, Captain Mattingly asked the officer who relieved him, Captain Pot Enberg if he would look after the car. And, thankfully, he agreed last week, when we found out her summer internship would also be moved online, it was time to make the 14 hour drive to retrieve the car and move her out of her apartment. Hannah texted Captain Pot Enberg to see if you could leave the key for us since we would be arriving late at night

01:10:08

Speaker 2: when Captain Pot Enberg went to leave the key. He preflight id her car, as I'm sure any good Navy pilot would to make sure everything was in working order. But after sitting there for three months, the key FOB battery was dead. The car battery was dead, the fluids were low and it was dirty.

01:10:25

Speaker 2: After what I'm sure took all day. On the day of his own son's graduation, Captain Pot Enberg replaced the FOB battery car battery, filled up the car with fluids, washed it and made sure absolutely everything was perfect with our daughter's car. When my daughter and I drove in at close to 10 p.m. Tired from the journey, we were elated to find it started right up and we were back on our way. Yea, although we never got to meet Captain Pot Enberg to thank him personally, we did express our gratitude. We're just so incredibly grateful for his kindness to do all of that for us, people he doesn't know was way above and beyond the call of duty.

01:11:04

Speaker 2: We're so proud and thankful our U. S. Navy has great men like Captain Mattingly and Captain Pot Enberg serving our country and helping out others. Along the way. We salute. Hm.

01:11:16

Speaker 2: Grateful mom in Texas.

01:11:18

Speaker 1: Oh, my gosh. That is That is a lot of above and beyond. And just the kind of things I could imagine. People were so grateful for grateful Mom in Texas. Thank you so much for writing this to us.

01:11:31

Speaker 2: I want to be in the care of Captain Pot. Enberg.

01:11:35

Speaker 1: I know this sounds like a good guy.

01:11:38

Speaker 2: Good guy. E.

01:11:41

Speaker 2: Thank you. Especially for listening. Thank you to everyone who sent us something. Please connect with us and share the show with friends, family and co workers. However, you like to share your podcasts.

01:11:52

Speaker 1: You can send us questions, feedback and salutes by email. Toe awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com by phone, you can leave us a message or text at 802858 k i n d. That's 802858546

01:12:08

Speaker 2: three on Twitter. We're at Emily Post. Inst on instagram were at Emily Post Institute on Facebook were awesome. Etiquette and Emily Post Institute

01:12:18

Speaker 1: Please subscribe to our show on Spotify or your favorite podcast app. And also please, please consider leaving us a review.

01:12:25

Speaker 2: Our show is edited by Chris Albertine, an assistant produced by Brigitte Dowd. Thanks.

01:12:31

Speaker 1: Thanks, Kris and Brigitte.