Episode 305 - Big Friendship Guests
In This Episode of Awesome Etiquette
Welcome to the Awesome Etiquette podcast, where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. On today’s show we take your questions on: sleeping in when you’re a guest, rescheduling a meet-up due to COVID-19 testing, tipping the owners of a restaurant and still wanting to host a traditional baby shower during the pandemic. For Awesome Etiquette Sustaining members our question is about at home cards. Plus your most excellent feedback, etiquette salute and a postscript where we interview some special guests Ann Friedman and Aminatou Sow.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social courtesy. That's old fashion.
Speaker 1: Watch how busy Post and Dan posts and act as host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person. Really Friendliness. Hello and welcome toe Awesome etiquette,
Speaker 2: where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty.
Speaker 1: On today's show, we take your questions on sleeping in when you're a guest, rescheduling a meet up due to Cove in 19 testing, tipping the owners of a restaurant and still wanting to host a traditional baby shower during the pandemic. But knowing that
Speaker 2: virtual will be better for awesome etiquette sustaining members, our question of the week is about at home cards
Speaker 1: all that plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a post script segment where we are joined by the wonderful women who host the call your girlfriend podcast. They have a new book out called Big Friendship, and we get to talk with them about the etiquette of friendship.
Speaker 2: All that coming up
Speaker 2: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute.
Speaker 1: I'm Lizzie Post and I'm Dan Post Senning. And today we have a very special show with very special guest, which is very unusual for us here on awesome etiquette. Despite the fact that we talk about hosting all the time, we are really excited that Amina, too, so and Ann Friedman of the Call Your girlfriend podcast join us for our post script segment, and they're here to discuss their new book titled Big Friendship, which comes out tomorrow. That's Tuesday, July 14. We would
Speaker 2: be remiss if we didn't thank Jackson Musker, who we mentioned in our big celebration of our 3/100 episode show,
Speaker 2: had re emerged. He re emerged to make an introduction to ask us if some folks that he was doing booking for now the call, your girlfriend, podcast lady's could join our show, and
Speaker 2: an introduction from Jackson Musker is an introduction that we pay attention. Thio, uh, on what was fun about this direction as we sort of mind a little bit deeper. We did some research to prepare for this interview. What we discovered was that this show in the book about friendship are nicely paired with what we do here on awesome etiquette and that there's, Ah relationship focus a building and growing relationship. Focus for them within the context of specifically friendship, relationships
Speaker 1: well. And I think also like within that it's the care within your friendships that you take, You know what I mean? It's that there's a I pulled right away from my take away from both the show and the book was that there there was a certain, um, I don't want to say like reverence for certain types of friendships or things like that, but a really honest reflection upon self. It had so many notes that we talk about here on awesome etiquette. Dan and I got really excited about being able to do this interview.
Speaker 1: I agree that there were
Speaker 2: some big picture value setting like, Oh, this is what we value in a friendship. This is where we want something to go, paired with a real willingness to get down into the weeds or the details or whatever you wanna call it. But, ah, willingness to examine behavior and language and how we treat each other and make decisions and see ourselves. And it is all that investigation that is just so rich and it's it's the grist for the mill of this show. And I think for a lot of the conversations that they have is, well,
Speaker 1: well, I For one, I'm certainly excited to share our post script with our audience, but I think we have to get to some questions first. Should we get to it? Let's do it.
Speaker 1: Awesome Etiquette is here to answer your questions, and you can email them toe awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. Leave a voicemail or text at 802858 k i n d. That's 8028585463 Or you can reach us on social media on Twitter. We're at Emily Post Inst on instagram were at Emily Post Institute and on Facebook were awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media posts so that we know you want your question on the show.
Speaker 1: Our
Speaker 2: first question this week is delightfully titled. Should
Speaker 1: I sleep in? I feel like the answer here isn't Isn't it just always yes, always. Are we done? Do we even need to read the question? Yes, always and there's the rub. No, no, we'll have to investigate further. Dan, what's up with this question?
Speaker 2: We begin. Hi, Lizzie and Dan wondering what the rule of thumb is or the correct way to behave as a guest, I am wondering, as per the host guest dance. What is appropriate in terms of sleeping in when you are a guest in someone's house? I want to be considerate to any meals that maybe being prepared or the appropriate time to get coffee while it is hot without making a special pot and other considerations such as this. Often there is something said along the lines of sleeping or relax, and we'll see you in the morning. But what is the most considerate and respectful way to approach this? I would always love to get invited back if you could please advise me on some aspects of etiquette around sleeping in at a guesthouse. That would be great. I love your show and appreciate your guidance. Kathleen
Speaker 1: Kathleen. This is such a good question, because it kind of does have so many answers. I joke in the beginning, always, always sleep in, but I like the fact that you're getting a little deeper. People often say Sleep in, relax. Take your time in the morning. But what does that really mean? Early to some is 6:30 a.m. Early to others is 10 a.m. or 8 a.m. You know, when does the household start to move? I can remember going and staying in days of old at a boyfriend's house, and mom would start vacuuming, you know, at like at like 8. 30 in the morning. And we were asleep in the basement, so it would be like no matter what, you were getting up, even if she wanted you to sleep in. It's different in different households, and for me, the etiquette starts with not just saying Please sleep in it, saying something like, You know, Oh, I'm usually up around nine, but please feel free to sleep as late as you want or get up early. I can set some things out for you to get started. I like it when hosts identified their schedule zone and then open it up for guests toe be free to do whatever they would you know, like within it. That would make them comfortable.
Speaker 2: I agree. I think that there there is sort of an initiate torrey duty that falls on a host to kind of map out what's usual so that a guest can figure out how to kind of slide in. And e don't want to say make the least impact possible, but maybe to cause the least disruption or sort of make make the fewest requests that would stretch a host. And obviously there's a reciprocal expectation of a host wanting toe outline what's usual, but also let guests know how they can make themselves comfortable either within those parameters or how they can step outside and not bother anybody. So there's definitely a bit of a dance going on, and I think that a bigger picture priority of both parties wanting to do their best for the others that if you love to get up early, I want to accommodate that. If you love to sleep in, I want to accommodate that. If there's anything I can do for you where I'm not present, let me help. Let me tell you where the local coffee shop is, or put a timer on the coffee pot that waiting for you when you wake up at four
Speaker 1: 30 or it's no trouble to make a second pot. Don't you worry about it. We'd love to have one to turn to throughout the day. You know what I mean? Um but I also think that if if there's an absence of that Kathleen, I think that you can speak up and you could say, Well, what time do you all usually wake up in the morning? Or, you know, Well, I'd love to make sure I join you for breakfast. So what? What time? You know, Do you usually do breakfast or, you know, whatever it is, you know, some people, it's I've got to get up and do that, you know, meditation, yoga or morning run. Whatever it is, I think you just you can you can ask questions. You can dive in and say like, Oh, I I'd love to be there for that. Or, you know, I'd love to do this, but I don't want to miss that like it's It's the broaching of the conversation that will get it going and get you answers a kind of almost as long as it fits the household in your friendship. I think you're good. Yeah, or I usually get up
Speaker 2: at eight, but I can adjust that up or down easily.
Speaker 1: I think whether that's on the part of the host or the guest, a little bit of a willingness to change or adjust to kind of try toe, meet closer in the middle on it, or or align with someone is always
Speaker 1: good. Doesn't have to be totally 100% necessary. But I do think it's good every now and again the because you do end up with a slightly mawr. Awkward but often even more understandable situation, which is like your flight gets in at a really weird our and now you're going to sleep really late into the day because you've got it. You know what I mean or something like that. But those air much more understandable circumstances than than the like Oh, yeah, well, we said sleep in, but now it's one, and she's still not up yet. Like, do we? Should we wake her for lunch or not?
Speaker 2: Answer. Give her a chance but don't
Speaker 1: exist? Would you first send text messages to see if just the phone would Would would ignite it? Get the person out of the room, or would you go for a knock on the door? Text first, Definitely. Text first. The knock. Oh, I love how how technology allows us to do such things.
Speaker 2: So most of our answers have to do with finding some accord, communicating ahead of time, sort of maintaining within yourself a willingness to be flexible, to propose solutions to talk it out. I do think there's also something to be said for preparing for your own autonomy that if a cup of coffee at five o'clock is really important to you, but you're hanging out with a bunch of late risers, your willingness to ask how to let yourself in and out so that you could go find the local coffee shop and take care of yourself, I think, is another tool to have at your disposal
Speaker 2: in the category of offering some practical tips for house guests, I say bring a book or something that you can use to entertain yourself. Bring some headphones, something that you can do not bother other people, but enter a world where you find yourself entertained, even if you're sharing space with other people who aren't awake yet, and maybe the walking shoes or the
Speaker 1: other like boy, make sure you can always always prepped to go for a good walk.
Speaker 1: Kathleen. We hope that this helps, and we hope that your next visit as a house guest is one where you get to sleep in, be comfortable and get the coffee. But there are problems, too. He's always asleep when he ever going to be any fun. All he ever does is eat and sleep. Yes, eat and sleep.
Speaker 2: Our
Speaker 1: next question is titled Rescheduling for Results. Dear Lizzie and Dan. I have appreciated your podcast even more than usual recently. Due to the new Changes Cove, it has brought toe how to interact socially. I have a friend who I meet with every Thursday morning. During this time of social distancing, we have met over FaceTime. But more recently we've been meeting an outdoor spaces. Her husband is sick and was tested for covert yesterday. Tomorrow is Thursday. The results do not come back until next week. I will obviously have to cancel before you get back to me. But what would be your sample script for canceling in the scenario? Sincerely, Anonymous. Anonymous. Thank you
Speaker 2: for your question. and thank you for the feedback about how you found the show particularly helpful or comforting recently, it's nice to hear, um, as I was thinking about the answer for this, I was saying to myself, Oh, there a couple of points that I would want Thio get across. I would want to thank someone for telling me for being open about what had happened. I would wanna be very clear that I'd have to cancel for now. And I also want to be sure to deliver the message that I look forward to picking up again at some point in the future when and where we could.
Speaker 2: And I was asking myself, How would I say those three things? And I was saying, You know, that's the sample script right there. Thank you so much for telling me. Obviously, I'll have to cancel our usual Thursday social distance meeting, but I so look forward to picking it up again when we can.
Speaker 1: I like that sample language. Dan and I also like how it can work. I want to say retroactively. I think a lot of people might have, like a phone conversation where someone shares news. Oh, you know my husband, my spouse, my partner sick or was exposed or whatever it is that they're sharing with you and it doesn't register in your brain. Oh, wait. Four days from now, five days from now, we've got a date, a standing date to get together. I should cancel it. Now. I think your same language works. You just have to add the I I totally forgot about our date and that it might impact that. I think we should cancel so you could follow up with a friend, you know? Hey, I just want to say thanks again. So much for telling me is, you know, Jim, feeling any better Data? I am thinking it's probably a good idea if this week we cancel or we go back to doing a face time. I think it's perfectly fine for you to just admit I didn't think about it in the moment. You know,
Speaker 2: absolutely these air quick decisions. And I think everybody is getting used to that because things were so fluid that things have toe. We have to stay willing to change. We have to be willing and able to adjust. I think that's a pretty understood social concept at this point.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. And, boy, do we look forward to the day when it's not longer, no longer the case, right? Oh, my goodness. It
Speaker 2: would be nice to have some certainty.
Speaker 1: I know, I know. I do want to say, though I'm finding that friends and Dan, I don't know what your social circles have been like, but I am finding that friends are getting a lot more comfortable with discussing this sort of thing with, um, just finding that beautiful balance between seeking information and protecting oneself and not doing that in ways that judge or push people away, but but have a tenderness and kindness about them. I'm thinking about when I got together with a friend over the weekend and before we got together, she just she had some questions because I had been tested. I think we've talked about that whole scenario on the show before, but the just very sweet and very respectful way in which she approached the topic made me feel just so grateful for that. And it made it so easy to reply and to answer the questions and to figure out our social gathering together safely. and I just I kind of want to take this moment to give us kudos, because I'm hearing more tales like that out in the world and more people looking for ways to be really good about that.
Speaker 2: Lizzie Post that it's such an important point. These conversations can feel fraught or awkward or new or difficult, and they can also
Speaker 2: I feel really good and that that sounds a little weird even to say. But it's true. There are opportunities to show real compassion and care for each other and for ourselves. And when we ace it when we do it well, it really shows that concern in that care. And that's really important.
Speaker 1: Anonymous. We hope this sample language helps, and more than that, we hope that your friends husband gets better quickly and that you both can get back to your Thursday get togethers.
Speaker 1: The guardians of our health our doctors, nurses, teachers and parents are working together to keep us well. All of them must know and agree on the health practices we need at home in the neighborhood in that school.
Speaker 2: Our next question is about tipping the owners
Speaker 2: Hi, Lizzie and Dan. When eating out. People are accustomed to tipping their servers, But I'm wondering about when the owners of the restaurant also serve you the food. Do you tip working owners of their restaurants who are waiting tables? Thank you, Kathy.
Speaker 1: This is one of those where I think this is a difference between salons and non salons. I mean, typically, the idea is that you don't You don't usually tip an owner because they are like, supposed to be making profit. You know, the idea is that they take care of everything they take care of themselves, and I think in in services like salon Services, beauty services, those types of things, we're really used to this idea that you don't tip the owner. But I think, to be honest, that during co vid and in the restaurant industry it's less in that realm. I think that we're more used to tipping the owner. We might not always know whether the owner is the person serving us. It's a funny divide. I can't give you a real reason for it. I just know that my instinct here is to say you tip that person who's serving you at a table right now. because that's that's the big custom that we have here in America.
Speaker 2: I'm right there with you because I think if they're providing that service, you tipped the way you would tip for that service. If someone were to say, Oh, no, no, I can't accept that I own and operate this place and I don't usually accept tips. I wouldn't force it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a very good point, but I don't anticipate
Speaker 2: hearing that necessarily. I think that more like you. I think Mawr and Mauritz not uncommon to see an owner participating in service at a restaurant and the culture and the social contract around tipping for service, particularly sit down table service at restaurants,
Speaker 2: is so salty. It is so strong. I just think most people are expecting that's going to be part of the routine, even an owner who's
Speaker 1: playing that role. I think you're right to think you're probably not going to hear in a restaurant setting. Too many owners say, Oh, no, no, don't worry about the tip tonight and E don't want to say that saying like restaurant owners, air selfish. I don't want people to think that way at all. I think this is a really difficult time for restaurants especially, and I think that it's just really common that a lot of places air going down to that staff of like, you know, the owners, a chef and a server. Or sometimes those people are occupying all three different occupations, especially for smaller, smaller places. But I think it never hurts. Kathy Toe offer the tip it never, ever hurts to offer. And it's the same thing that we do say over in the salon side of the question, which is, if you don't know, always offer to leave a tip, and if they refuse, you know you can you can say, Are you sure? I'm really happy Thio. And then if they refuse again, I think you leave it be and you feel confident walking away, not leaving the tip that you really secured that. That's the okay social thing in this particular moment.
Speaker 1: Kathy,
Speaker 2: thank you so much for the question. We hope this helps clear up any confusion when you're eating out.
Speaker 1: Our next question is titled, Still want a shower and I don't know if there is should be a question mark or an exclamation point or in ellipses or just a period at the end of that.
Speaker 1: Let's dig in and find out. Hi. I'm an avid Emily Post rule follower and a new listener to be awesome Etiquette Podcast. Since Covad 19 doesn't seem to be going away anytime soon. My husband and I decided to have an online baby shower. Oh, we're due in October and would like the shower to be at the end of August. I've been going back and forth with this, but we just don't wanna be the reason anyone gets sick. Very smart.
Speaker 1: My sister in law is hosting the shower for us. But we were so confused on how to create an invitation for such an event. I also still want to make the shower classy and lovely, even though we will not be together in the same space. Any suggestions and opinions you have would be so greatly appreciated, especially with the invitation. Thank you so much in advance. Adrian.
Speaker 1: Oh,
Speaker 2: Adrian, First of all, big congratulations. What an exciting time. And second of all, there are so many good options here. You're thinking about ahead of time, so there's plenty of opportunity remaining. Thio do this. Well and have a lot of fun with it in terms of what's the appropriate kind of invitation. It could really be anything. It could be paper for a very traditional paper. It could be an IV ICT, whatever it is. I definitely think planning to call and follow up in person, usually via phone call is advisable is well around shower planning, particularly nontraditional shower planning. The odds are that there's going to be some subtle messaging, some little details that are gonna be easier to communicate if you're getting that one on one opportunity with people. And usually showers aren't so big that it's not too big of a burden on the host toe. To be thinking of that as part of their planning and inviting process
Speaker 1: with that invitation, I do think that you, um, two things. One, I think, because you've self identified as an Emily Post rule follower, I wanna lean into the idea of sort of proper invitations. You know what I mean? Because I think Adrian, and if I am wrong, feel free to go the other direction with it, but I think you would like it. I think it's what you probably would enjoy for your shower. And in some ways we do want to be trying to combine as as much of the traditions as we feel connected to and that are important to us with the safety that we're trying to work with now because of covert 19. So I would say go for that paper invite, give it the wording that that you typically would. But the time and place for the shower then become the virtual gathering time and space. And you can even I would suggest on the invitation, right? You know, email with link to call or link to your phone. You know, whatever. Whatever it is, based on the service that you're using together, everybody virtually. I think that that would be really kind of be like the appropriate melding of the the zoom invite or the Google hang out invite and the the actual kind of traditional shower invitation. And then, of course, you've got to follow up with that link. That way, everybody does have it, and you might even want to just check in. If you haven't heard people respond back saying that they'd be happy to be there to make sure that they have received the link. One of the other things that I think is really important for doing this is to have an agenda for your virtual shower. You know, it does help. I was just a part of a virtual bachelorette the other night, and the ladies that organized it had a whole whole list. They weren't exactly games, but they were fun things that really celebrated our bride. And because the sort of emcee of the bachelorette was moving us through things, it was really helpful, and different people would kind of like they would take breaks in between and different party guests would then come up to the camera and talk kind of one on one with the guests that they knew. And it was okay, if if you didn't know that person who was right up to the camera, you could you could kind of just listen and smile and just be present. But I do think agenda is really important and give people that that sense of ease, like it's okay if you have to leave for a few minutes and come back. We want this to feel casual and comfortable. No one should feel like they're dying to their desk chair. You know, those kinds of things really, really helped to make that virtual shower feel special.
Speaker 2: That agenda is gonna work for you in a couple of ways. It's gonna help avoid kind of the one of the biggest problems in quotation marks that people run into with the virtual shower, which is that an hour spent online oftentimes is about the max for people. And if you start to get into a sort of the parallels between ah, live event in a virtual event, oftentimes you're shortening the duration. So we used to have time for everyone to open everything in front of everybody and say a little something a little back and forth. And it might be that in a 20 person shower that means that you're about gonna have two or three minutes to say a little something to somebody. And people are going different ways. Some people are sending the gifts ahead of time for someone to open lives. Sometimes people are removing that gift opening process just toe to shorten the timeframe, but they're giving everybody an opportunity to say something, or they're acknowledging the gift, but not opening it in front of people
Speaker 1: doing photos of the gift opening and then posting a Siris of them as an album to the group space later. Like you know, there's a lot of ways to wing it
Speaker 1: and
Speaker 2: because there's so many choices and none is the right one. Just giving somebody an idea ahead of time. Which one you're going with, or how you'd like it to proceed, sets everyone up for success and makes it more likely that the event itself is gonna be fun and move smoothly.
Speaker 1: It also helps with those things like, Um, guess which member of you know, like I feel like there's a lot of, like guest games that could be really like, funny, like, you know what would happen upon the first diaper change or like, you know, just silly things like that. And I feel like, um, letting people know ahead of time a little bit about some of the topics, some of the memories they might wanna be bringing to mind. It does. It does kind of help them prepare for the call, just like I hate Thio, then connected to business. But just like the same way you prepare for a business call. You know it allows you to participate, which is really, really nice as that person far away, you know, wanting to be there in the room with everybody else. Or I guess, in this case there really won't be that many people in the room with everybody else. But one of the other things you can do to help kind of make things inclusive and get people to bond more is head of time. Sending out either small packages to your guests or sending out suggested recipes. I know people have done like cocktails of the night, or everybody's baked the same kind of cookie or, you know, cupcake or something like that. And it is kind of a nice way when you're all, you know, sipping that same cocktail and can comment on it. Or when you've tried someone else's recipe for a dish and everyone gets to eat it even though you're far apart, it is. It's a tiny unifying thing. Not everyone will participate. Don't expect full participation, but it is. Ah, it's a nice added option. And of course, if you have the means to just send things to people like a little like I said, a little care package for the party. That could be a really fun way to participate. But it takes quite a lot of prep, and it might be a bit too much. Might be the
Speaker 2: extra one sort of final tip. Thought is toe leave a little bit of time as an organizer or host for an event like this for helping people that aren't as familiar with whatever tech you're using or whatever platforms you're using to do some dry runs with people that there might be a parent or someone who's a little younger, a little older or just like me lives out on the side of a mountain and has a slow Internet connection where it could be a real help to just try out a system to see if it's gonna work ahead of time. And it's another task for a host. But in the world of virtual party throwing, I definitely think it's something you wanna build into your party. Planning
Speaker 1: Adrian. We hope that this is a good starter of options to go towards for having a successful virtual shower, and we are so excited for you and your new family, and I will just put it out there. I'm hoping the baby is going to be born on my birthday. October 18th Fellow Weber Child A. A. If you are going to give a party, plan that party around the purpose, choose your guests carefully planned invitations planned for refreshments and entertainment, then practice to be a skillful horse. Make sure the party is fun for everyone.
Speaker 1: Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers. Toe awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. You can leave a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463 or reach us on social media on Twitter. We're at Emily Post. Insist on Instagram were at Emily Post Institute and on Facebook were awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media post, so we know you want your question on the show.
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Speaker 1: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer in the topics we cover. And today we hear from Tree, Va. About Episode 301 and the question about responding to inappropriate jokes.
Speaker 2: Dear Lucy and Dan. I was listening to episode 301 while on my way to spend time with my mother on what would have been her 84th birthday. The question about how to respond when someone makes an offensive joke or comment reminded me of a response my mother gave in that very situation.
Speaker 2: We were at a family gathering when a relative told a joke in quotation marks that was racially offensive, my mother simply said, I don't go for that sort of humor. It was such a simple statement that made her stance clear and set a solid boundary without compromising the relationship. I have used this line since and have found it serves the purpose nicely.
Speaker 2: Thank you for a wonderful show. I enjoy it every week, but this time it added just a little more sweet toe. A bittersweet day. Be well, trivia.
Speaker 1: Try, Eva. Thank you so much. We really appreciate your feedback on. Glad that it could bring a little sweet to a bittersweet day. I am with you. My aunt. I watched her once, Um, say, Oh, I don't find that joke funny. And she said, I think I'm gonna go find something to do in the kitchen. Or, you know, it was like, the other room and that for me, like your mother being example for you. My aunt was really an example for me there because she loves the person who made the offensive, uh, non joke very much. But she did not love that humor, and she wasn't going toe laugh, or she wasn't gonna awkwardly be quiet. She just decided to say I I don't think that's funny. I think those were good lessons to take. When we see someone do it, do it and do it well.
Speaker 2: Trivia. Thank you for sharing this story about your mother.
Speaker 1: And now we hear from Sam about our show Greetings, Dan and Lizzie. I was
Speaker 2: introduced to the wonderful world of etiquette via the Global Information Network webinar training that Dan did a number of years ago. I also started listening toe awesome etiquette a few years ago, not having been brought up in an environment where many people practice a lifestyle with consideration, respect and honesty, I find your show also offers me a goodly amount of hope and peace is, well, kudos to Lizzie on her book Higher Etiquette. It beautifully dances between two worlds and blazes, a trail for those who have previously lived with shame but have also desired a higher standard from life. So I feel appreciation for both of you ever so much. Sam,
Speaker 1: Sam, thank you so much. That's really sweet. We certainly appreciate the positive feedback, and we're glad that it's making a positive impact on you.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Sam, for sharing this feedback and thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please do keep them coming. You can send your next feedback or update awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. You can also leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind That's 8028585463
Speaker 2: It's time for our post script segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette. And this week we are so excited Toe, have some other people on our show with us. E No, I feel like almost a little nervous. Lizzie, would you like to introduce our guests?
Speaker 1: I would. I'm nervous too, because we're actually hosting for Riel. But we've got Amina too. So and Ann Friedman from the call Your girlfriend podcast. And they are co authors of the book Big friendship. And we're really excited to have them here today. Ladies, Welcome to awesome etiquette.
Speaker 2: Hello. Thanks for having us.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being willing to come here and to do this via Zoom. So welcome to be the first guests on awesome etiquette. I feel like in years a non er and a pleasure. Well, we're so happy to have you here. And I think we should probably fill our audience in a little bit about your book. Big friendship and your podcast Call your girlfriend And how How kind of this all emerged because I'm very excited that you to focus on friendships and that we get to talk about the
Speaker 2: advocate of friendships today. What we've been doing. Our podcast. Call your girlfriend since 2014 making us like you kind of veteran podcasters, dare
Speaker 1: I say after I get up, there are
Speaker 2: show is tagline. A podcast for long distance besties everywhere. And, um, we call each other and often guests, people we admire and are interested in to talk about what's happening in the news and politics and culture and try to make some sense of it together.
Speaker 1: It We talk a lot on this show about consideration and what it means to be considerate with loved ones, co workers, friends. It's very clear from the very start of your book that you to see consideration as needing to be part of a friendship that it is. It is an essential and good part of a friendship. I was wondering as being two people who had a podcast for so long and who obviously have just been out in the world socializing for so long like people often ask us to assess the state of etiquette in the world today or in America today. What sort of the state of consideration and friendships like, Do you guys generally see us being good friends or are we not? Is it shallow friendship? And it's what makes a big friendship so
Speaker 2: important. I do think that it varies like any relationship. People are doing it really differently. One thing I think we see over and over is an intention to do it better or to beam or invested in friendship. And even though that attention seems very president, a lot of the questions that you, too, are always asking about how to show up considerably and compassionately and what that looks like while also drawing and respecting your own boundaries. I think that's the gist of the questions we get from our listeners about this most often. And there's also a strain of them, you know, correct me. If I'm wrong, I mean not to, but like a strain of them that are like, am I crazy or are they crazy or am I? Am I? Am I the one who is totally off base here, or are they totally off base? There seems to be a desire for exactly what the two of you are doing, which is a baseline expectation, and that feels really natural to me, especially because friendship can be a very nebulous relationship. It means a lot of different things, which is one reason why we took pains to define a big friendship. You know, this long term, robust relationship that is intimate and really rooted in the future. And so, yeah, I think those questions air natural And also it's really hard for me to give super large and scope kind of assessment of what's happening in friendship just because there are so many so many types definitely
Speaker 1: feel you on that. I mean, not too. You had a story in the preface of the book about a moment that you felt your consideration lacking. And to me it was a really like up close right at the get go moment of reflection of self analysis, as well as just immediately thinking about what would be best for this other person who I know, who I try to take care of typically, and I'm not right now. What's going on here? Can you speak to that moment? Because I I really loved hearing that I was like, Wow, that's ownership acknowledgement. It's It's so many good things in there for something that actually came from a place
Speaker 2: of lack. I'm curious, e love that you picked that up So eso early on the part of the book that you're referring Teoh is, um and And I write about being at this spa retreat, you know, trying to rekindle the romance of your of our friendship and feeling, feeling spectacularly or doing it. But at this point, we are in these really hot and steamy mud backs. And I love my Beth. I love the steam I love secretly love how uncomfortable the whole thing is, you know? And in this moment I glanced over at my friend and she is not doing well in the in. The mother is a very generous interpretation
Speaker 1: of what is happening there. But, you
Speaker 2: know, I think that you were right to zero in on that moment because for me, it was the first time in a long time in our friendship that I understood that something that I would have naturally done, which is remember to just warn someone about something so basic it's hot and it's uncomfortable. Maybe you won't be happy here, and especially if that person is someone that I'm close Thio, I know that you know, and runs lizard temperatures at best. It was a really moment of personal torture for me because it was truly an omission. Like it was not e did not do it. I did not lure her thio
Speaker 1: hot locations. You didn't actually think about it and then just be like, you know, I really want to do the bad. I'm gonna ignore that. But
Speaker 2: But now, now, you know, if I was a serial killer, this I would kill everyone would be like a bad, but yeah, the temperature's run really hot. But for me, it was this really telling moment of Oh, there is a huge disconnect here because I consider myself to be someone very thoughtful about this very small kind of thing, you know, like in the grand scheme of things. But it's truly like we're not talking like world peace, earth shattering norms here. But it was so telling to me that this is a very small thing that I would really do for anyone in my life. I had not extended that courtesy and that kindness to my friend and I think that it's it's really important to have moments like that when you are not comfortable with someone because so much of the strife a lot of times is externalized and you were so focused on their behavior. And I think that for me, that was a really looking in the mirror of Oh, why, if this is the thing that I do all the time, why did I not do it now? It was very innocent, but I think that it is. It is very much like work interrogated. Look,
Speaker 1: it reminded me of moments I've had in relationships, where as a very loving, caring person, I've noticed where I didn't take the opportunity to be loving and caring, whether it's because I just didn't think about it in the moment, and I typically would have otherwise or because I was distracted. It's a moment of lack of care that you notice in yourself and then sort of what you do about it is the big question, right? Like, what do we do when we have these moments? But I'm also curious. Was there any part of your reflective thought process where you thought Yeah and Anza grown awesome woman who knows that maybe a mud bath won't be comfortable for her. I don't have to worry too much, but it sounds to me like that would go against the nature of how you you more generally are. So
Speaker 2: maybe I don't know. No, that is not my sickness. My sickness is that I'm always worried that if someone is uncomfortable, it's my fault.
Speaker 1: Okay, That's where that comes from. The
Speaker 2: thought never mind. Never goes. There s so that, like that never occurred to me. I think it was a really look in the mirror moment of
Speaker 2: If you think that you were considerate person, why were, you know, consider it in the in this instance, I think that that is more telling a lot of times.
Speaker 1: And I'm curious when you were in the mud bath, did you think What was she thinking? Of course I'm gonna not enjoy this or I'm curious what you were thinking in the mud bath. I think I was just deep breathing and trying to get through it like this is not a part of my reality. I do think
Speaker 2: that that underlying emotion of it's almost like watching yourself do a thing or like reflecting on something in the recent past and kind of saying like, Wait a minute. Is this me? And I associate it. Um, you know, I'm failing to come up with a super specific example. But during this period of our friendship, I would often catch myself, you know, essentially assuming the worst or assuming, ah, sort of negative intention. When I when I was feeling uncomfortable like that, there was something coming from her that was clearly not, you know, And I think that was something that I was able to see, like in the minute after, Like having that feeling, being able to say like, Oh, actually, this is about me feeling uncomfortable like it wasn't about words that left her mouth or any action that that she did in this moment. And I think that in a way, that kind of benefit of the doubt is a way of extending compassion, the kind of compassion and consideration that you're talking about. And when I think about this time, I really think about that being something that I failed to do that was really missing for me. And it is not as concrete as a mud bath. I am sorry to say on that is not where I was physically in the mud bath, but but, yeah, that's very much part of that dynamic. It's so good. I'm hearing so many things that they're coming out, a specific examples of themes that are of interest and this idea of moments of self reflection being opportunities for improvement opportunities to bridge that distance between what an was talking about our visions of ourselves and our good intentions and the actual behaviors that were employing or that we're able to stay aware of and intentionally deployed at any particular moment with someone get such a great specific example is nice. The other thing that and mentioned that I thought was really intriguing was this idea of balancing your expectations of yourself and other people's expectations of you.
Speaker 1: I can't tell you how much etiquette nowadays is about the individual and the individual balancing their own comfort levels, their own feelings of safety, their own personality with the world around them in ways that feel confident and positive and good. Obviously, there are times when that doesn't go right and it doesn't feel those ways, and we deal with that. But I'm curious in such a long, long standing friendship in a big friendship. How do you to find the balancing when it's It's such a one on one space? How do you find that you've either changed or developed or learned about good communication in this much bigger relationship in your life than I think a lot of other friendships
Speaker 2: or work relationships be?
Speaker 2: You know, I think that the key word there really is just communication speaking just for myself. The only way I know to be my best self at work is to work with people that I love. If we're friends, you, you know, like I'm not going to be perfect. But it's the closest have, like, not garbage that you're going to get a human being. And so because I think that in friendship for me, at least there is already a care and consideration and, you know, like a really important tether there. That means that I'm also just on my best behavior in a way that I would probably not be if people were not people I cared for, For example, both of my friendship with an and my professional relationship with her in our collaboration. And the thing that I am always the most struck by is that
Speaker 2: it was one okay to not agree with someone like I cannot think of a time that we have at least professionally disagreed about something, that it felt so impossible that it couldn't be bridged because so much of it it's framed in terms of the work itself. It's a really clear exchange of ideas. I think that if you are collaborating, you kind of have to understand that you're not getting your way. Whatever the thing, it's not. You're it's true. It's not. You're it's you think is a weird Frankenstein child of the ideas that you have in the idea that a collaborator has. But the thing that an models for me constantly is, um, asking questions in order to get to what you are trying to say. So what is that? You know, like, what's the feeling behind the feeling? Why are you saying the thing that you were saying and also just in the most neutral way possible, being able to just state your desire and it not feeling threatening? And I think that so much of that is. Actually, you know, there are some verbal cues for that and so much of it as non verbal cues. But I think that being generous in your speech and really clear in what you are trying to accomplish and how can we get to those two places together? And I think that that is a kind of thing that you can do in your professional life. It is a thing that you have to do in your personal life, and so much of it is just being really generous with how you ask the questions and how you push and challenge each other.
Speaker 1: I love it. I just I love hearing how people work well together, how they figured out how to work well together.
Speaker 1: There is a friendship etiquette question that we get all the time on this podcast that I was hoping the two of you could help us answer. And I understand that in your particular friendship, it's long distance. So this one might not be one that the two of you have to experience each year regularly, but with with your other friends and your friend groups,
Speaker 1: people love to go out for a birthday celebration, and we love to somehow take the honoree the birthday person out. And there's always this situation of who's organizing this birthday outing. How is it going to happen? And are we expected to pay for the birthday person? And how is that happening? And we find that no matter how much we talk about good ways to invite or organized or get buy ins that no matter what this becomes, a friendship fails somehow and people are disappointed. What do you to think of the birthday dinner
Speaker 2: group gathering? I have such a strong feelings about the birthday group gathering because it is the source of so much friendship misbehavior that goes untracked. My feelings are many, but the first one is that adults can go out for their birthday if they would like to. But you have to be an adult about how you handle it, so I love that There are two ways. There are two ways that you can do this. You can ask someone thio, be the point person to invite people to your birthday, which you're essentially asking someone to host a party for you, whether it is happening at a restaurant or not, or you can plan your own birthday dinner, which is also acceptable.
Speaker 2: I personally think that it is not productive to go out in groups larger than six to eat dinner, especially for birthdays. And because the heart of this question really is. How considerate are you of your friends, time and of your friends money.
Speaker 2: Two areas that people are notoriously bad at talking about. And I think that if you are friends with people, you should understand that there is a little bit of responsibility that you have to take when you were asking them to spend money on anything at all, and particularly if you are asking them to spend money on you.
Speaker 2: And I come from a culture where if you throw a party, you actually pay for the whole thing. So if I threw myself if I had a birthday dinner, I would pay for it because I'm asking people for the gift of their time in presence. That's just my culture. That is not true in the American context.
Speaker 2: I think that the way that the invitation should be done should make it specifically clear at the top. So we're going to such and such restaurant. We're going at such and such time. You also need to be considered of the restaurant. If you are rolling in there with six people, it is probably better to call them and give them a heads up and ask if they will have a specific menu for you or they, like restaurants are great with large parties. They will come up with a way that the bill could be like pretty even. There will be a menu that also can include drinks. If you are, You know, like somewhat more of an adult. You should probably ask if they have a private room that you could use because you're rolling in there with a large party. You would like to make noise. Be considerate of the other guests at the restaurant. We don't need to all here you're happy birthday song tonight, not our night. And none of these things, like on their face, costs a lot of money like it actually is not more expensive to go out with a large group of people in a private room that it is just like eat in the main dining room. You just have to ask for it, and I think that in the invitation you should make it really clear if there was a menu or whatever. It's like, Okay, it'll come out to about $95 each, plus drinks plus tax. If you give people our heads up about what they're getting into, they can decide for themselves whether they want to join you or not. And it's not an indictment of how they feel about you. It's possible that money is tight and it's possible that they don't, you know, like time is tight and they can't make it work. And so I think that maximum transparency in the invitation is how you avoid the check showing up and having this weird dance of how are we splitting all of this? And in the in the case that you've asked someone to be the point person for your birthday, that person will probably also handle the check, and they will either find out from the restaurant if it's okay to split it in, You know, six. Like I said, we should not going out to dinner in groups of six. This is it's a disaster. You should find out because it's also inconsiderate to your server if you don't have a plan for how you're going to pay and so you should find out how many forms of payments one can take. And it doesn't have to be weird if you are communicating clearly with people. And it truly is that you know, everyone in your friend group is at a different place with all of those things. And the kind of thing to Dio is to give people as much information as they can so they can make a decision for themselves. I
Speaker 1: love everything, everything you just said. It is so right in line with both what our audience wants to be hearing. I feel audience. I don't mean to speak for you, but so in line with the way we tend to view birthdays and celebrations like this, it's clear, honest communication being understanding of people's
Speaker 2: limits. They
Speaker 1: don't need to be a personal reflection on how somebody cares about you, but also just the idea to be practical and facilitate this with ease. I love
Speaker 2: it all, and I would also say listening to you talk about this is I can think of literally dozens of instances where unorganized or has not done what you described. And definitely, as I have grown into a place of more financial security or come into a place of more financial security, I take it as mawr my responsibility than before to be the one who replies not to the whole thing, necessarily, but directly to the organizer in a separate text thread. Or, you know, just in a one on one email to say, Hey, you forgot to mention what is the process for paying and what is the rough dollar amount? And I think that that could be a really nice way. Speaking of consideration, that you consider the fact that you maybe don't know the financial situation or or like the kind of group logistics anxieties, because that's a big part of this of other people who are on the invite. And so if you are the one who's aware and you know you would do it differently, you can be part of an accountability culture to reply directly and ask that they follow up and say, This is how payment is gonna happen and this is what you can expect. And so that's the only thing I would add listening to your otherwise lawless description of how this should go down.
Speaker 1: That right, that was awesome. I mean, not to. And thank you so much for being here audience. I'm sorry, but our recording we lost dance. So he does not get to say his goodbyes. I will have to say them on his behalf. Sorry, I'm couldn't
Speaker 2: handle it. He couldn't wait. Dropped out.
Speaker 1: Man, that boy just wants someone to organize something for him. No, I'm just kidding. He's he unfortunately, lost power. Just
Speaker 2: he's done for the day. Um but
Speaker 1: thank you both. So much for being here. Thank you for shedding a light on friendships and on big friendships. Audience, please check out their book, which comes out Tuesday. That is tomorrow. We're so excited for it. Big friendship and give a listen to the podcast. Call your girlfriend. Thank you both
Speaker 2: so much. It was a real pleasure being with you. I hope you have a wonderful rest of the week. Thank you
Speaker 1: to stay safe. Stay healthy. Bye bye,
Speaker 1: G.
Speaker 1: It's one of you with people you like, isn't it? Yes. It's always good to be with your friends. Your friends at school and your friends at work
Speaker 1: and you send it home.
Speaker 1: Uh huh.
Speaker 1: Thinking about the world.
Speaker 1: We like to
Speaker 2: end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world. And that can come in so many forms. And
Speaker 1: today we're actually not
Speaker 2: going to turn to you. We're going to turn to Lizzie Post because she has a very special salute toe offer today.
Speaker 1: And I totally don't mean to copycat Dan. Andi. I appreciate him. Money. Me. E won't say letting but agreeing to do this as a swap out for this. Easy to do. Easy, easy, easy. Well, my salute goes out to Jacqueline Listyev, who many of you have heard her name. Oh, Dan, I'm gonna have such a hard time not crying while I do this. Many of you have heard her name on the show way early on because she was my roommate for many years, not many years, probably for like, 18 months. But it felt like many years, and we've been good friends for quite a long time. She took care of Benny for me often when I would go away. Um, she worked for my parents at one point like she's Jacqueline has just been very much so close in kindred spirit throughout the past, I would say 66 or seven years of my life. And not only have we live together and she's worked for my parents in their home, but she also works for us at Emily Post. She is actually responsible for and manages our social media. And so, oftentimes you may. You may see her liking things or making comments or letting us know to respond. Um, but she does a really beautiful job. And this week I got the privilege to go, um, Thio, her bachelorette party. And it was done in all all the good ways. But it was so just unbelievable listening to all of the women who were there and who were skyping in our zooming in. Um, talk about what Jacqueline has meant to them and what they see in her. And she has made such a big impact on so many women. You guys, she has. She is really one of those women who becomes a sister and a kindred spirit when, when she befriends someone and listening to the tales of how she helped people listening to the tales of how she was silly with people, Um, it painted an entire picture and also the ways that she worked with people through business. Um, it painted such an entire picture of such a beautiful human. And I'm just so happy for her tomorrow or technically, like three days ago. She is getting married to someone she really loves. And and two families air coming together that are really two families who are are coming together. This is a bonding. This is a one of those big, inclusive things not for numbers of people, but in terms of, um, how people are being absorbed into each other's lives. And it was just so beautiful to see ah woman who have seen grow and change so much be so celebrated Onda with such good reasons. So, Jacqueline, I love you so much. And I'm so proud of you and so happy for you. And so impressed by you all the time. You are such a shining example of how to be really great at life. Okay, you gotta talk now. Damn, cause I'm just gonna cry,
Speaker 2: Jacqueline. There's very little I could say on top of that, but I just want to add my voice and say, Congratulations were so, so happy for you
Speaker 2: on thank you to everyone out there for listening and thank you to everyone who sent us something. And to everyone who supports us on Patryan. A great big thank you Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1: Please connect with us and share this show with friends, family and co workers. And on social media, you can send us questions, feedback and salutes by email. Toe awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com By phone. You can leave us a message or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463 on Twitter We're at Emily Post inst on Instagram where at Emily Post Institute and on Facebook Were Awesome Etiquette and the Emily Post Institute. Please consider becoming a sustaining member.
Speaker 2: You can find out more about that by visiting patryan dot com slash awesome etiquette. You can also subscribe to the ads version of our show on Spotify or your favorite podcast app, or maybe several of your favorite podcast app on. Please consider leaving us a review. It helps with our show ranking, which helps new people find
Speaker 1: awesome etiquette. Our show is edited by Chris Albertine and assistant produced by Brigitte Dowd. Thanks, Kris and Brigitte.
Speaker 1: Oh
Speaker 1: Oh.