Episode 31 - The Office Wanderer and Absent Vegans
Speaker 1: Uh huh.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social, could you see it's old fashioned
Speaker 2: watch how busy post and damn post to act as host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person, Real friendliness,
Speaker 1: jeez,
Speaker 2: good morning
Speaker 1: here for another episode of awesome etiquette and dan looks all spiffy
Speaker 1: and t m I I haven't showered but our podcast does come to you from Happy Valley. I mean the studios of Vermont public radio and is part of the infinite guest network from american public media. I am lizzie post
Speaker 2: and I'm dan post sending from the Emily Post Institute
Speaker 1: representing it so very well this morning
Speaker 1: as as wonderful chris our sound engineer said we have to do in a don't in the studio today dan representing the do
Speaker 2: and it's so not fair because I'm going straight from here to a presentation so I'm polished and buffed and shined and LP. I
Speaker 1: had some troubles at home this morning that ate up my morning and unfortunately I just really had to get dressed and walk out the door so
Speaker 1: that's why.
Speaker 2: But official, officially confessional. E I was from the bed to my car in about 10 minutes this morning, woke up, hold on, you know,
Speaker 1: makeup, you don't need a hair, but
Speaker 2: then stop by the office to suit up and do all of the professional grooming. So it's uh,
Speaker 1: I still
Speaker 2: feel gross
Speaker 2: anyway, it is lovely to be here.
Speaker 1: It isn't it with usually a sunshiny morning here in Vermont, so we're very happy in our happy valley.
Speaker 2: And I heard while picking up my coffee that not tomorrow, but after that a string of 60 plus days isn't that
Speaker 1: lovely? And I'm going to florida, The weather finally gets nice when I leave. What is up with that? That always
Speaker 2: happens adding insult to injury. I wasn't even thinking about,
Speaker 2: oh
Speaker 1: at any rate, this morning, I wanted to ask kind of a question to my big cousin, he's not my big brother because my big cousin dan, and it's more about,
Speaker 1: you know, in our work lives, it's easy to be the boss, it's easy to know when you need to ask for something to be done the way you want it, but in your home life it's not as comfortable a place, at least for me,
Speaker 1: I, you know, I'm not, I don't have a family, so it's not like I'm, you know, telling little kids all the time what they have to do and being a boss in that way.
Speaker 1: But um when I hire someone or when I'm seeking to hire someone in my, in my home life to do like work on my house or care or something like that, um trying to figure out
Speaker 1: who you want to work with, what it's going to be like when you're working with them, when something goes wrong, how do you still stand up for what you want done on this job versus what they're telling you? Or maybe because I don't always know whether something is possible,
Speaker 1: possible for more money or just not what they feel like doing because
Speaker 1: they are tired.
Speaker 1: And so I'm we're really lucky that we have cousin Pete, who's a contractor and can, can kind of come over and be
Speaker 2: like, that
Speaker 1: should be able to be done. No problem. It might cost you a little more, but that and I'm really grateful to turn to him for that. But how do you handle it? From an etiquette point of view,
Speaker 1: when you've got someone there who you've hired, you trust their professional opinion or at least you've agreed to for the time you're going to be working with them. What do you do,
Speaker 2: your project manager learning on the job?
Speaker 1: Yeah. Right. Of a project that your project manager of a project you have no experience with.
Speaker 2: And as a good friend said to me early on in my foray into homeownership, ah the joys of home, uh
Speaker 2: and it's true, it's a challenge and so many people face because you're dealing with something that is bigger than you at your house and um and it takes some responsibility, their financial implications and their social implications, how you treat people really matters and you want to take that seriously. And I hear I hear that in you as you navigate this process
Speaker 1: and I happen to be someone who cares about people liking them. So it's like, I'm not the one who can just be like,
Speaker 1: I'm only going to know you for six months by by like, I'm the one who's like, no, I want this to go, well, I'd like us to be friendly. I'd like this to be a good experience on both ends.
Speaker 2: I think so often the, like, the foundation or the grounding for that relationship is a little bit of confidence and that confidence in yourself. That either confidence that you can learn what you don't know and you're willing to learn that you're ultimately you are the decision maker and you can take some confidence in that and whether you're
Speaker 2: you're feeling like you're catching up a little bit or like someone's not quite where you want them to be in the process. And it can be either of those two things having a little security. Just that ultimately it's you you get to make the choice. No one's going to take that away from you. There's no way for them to rest that control for you.
Speaker 1: It's my house started, help my money.
Speaker 2: I don't want to make something. I don't want to make, I don't wanna get taken a direction. I don't want to go and I also don't want to get in over my head. Yeah, exactly. And just trust yourself that you're going to be able to navigate, that you're going to learn as you go along and you're a good person. I know how you deal with people and
Speaker 1: someone's like disappointing you in that factor. How do you or if it's not going well or like, okay, so the part that I'm at in this is that I'm meeting with contractors and getting their opinions and their timetables and their estimates.
Speaker 1: And what's really hard is that,
Speaker 1: you know, I've had a couple who have really given me a lot of confidence and made it possible but I have another who made me really wonder whether or not I would wind up with the job that I want and obviously anyone in their right mind would say, oh don't go with the one you're not confident and I agree with that. But he's also like
Speaker 1: incredibly honest, like really good. So maybe he's the person who is saying, you know, you really could run into these problems with those other guys too.
Speaker 1: That's what, I don't know that I probably just need to bring in Pete to help me make my decision. But I've also gotten all these recommendations from friends and people that you and I know
Speaker 2: who like this one like these
Speaker 1: people and so it's like oh my gosh if I don't go with one of them, what's that going to be like? Like what, what do I
Speaker 2: do, what I want to just wave a wand and absolve sometimes there isn't a right answer, okay, sometimes there you're going to get different outcomes depending on which choice you make. I know it's so uncomfortable, but you get, you get to be the decider and and I
Speaker 2: I'm going to pretend that I'm pooja because she has great advice in these moments being account. She says, what do you want
Speaker 2: and set an intention for yourself and really keep keep your focus on that that vision of the thing that you want
Speaker 1: and that bathroom upstairs to be something I really enjoy using, like, enjoy getting ready and enjoy that space.
Speaker 2: I've heard you say that consistently throughout the entire process and I would keep looking for the person that's going to help you get there
Speaker 2: okay and find the person that you can trust. Not the one who's just telling you what you want to hear. Let
Speaker 1: the others down.
Speaker 2: Um, with clarity. Um, we've decided to go a different way with this project. Thank you so much. Magic words are magic. Never forget them.
Speaker 1: All right. Thank you. Thank you. Big cousin dan. Should we probably answer some listener questions as opposed to my dilemmas questions. Okay?
Speaker 1: We arrive,
Speaker 2: there's so much to learn how to
Speaker 1: do. Sure. There's a lot to
Speaker 2: learn, but it's
Speaker 1: worth it. And learning is easy. One way is by watching others
Speaker 2: on each and every episode of awesome etiquette. We take your questions on how to behave. Let's get started.
Speaker 2: Dear lizzie and dan. I have a friend who was late for everything. I'm sure all listeners can relate. Usually it's 10 to 15 minutes here there. But last weekend we made brunch plans and she was 45 minutes late. Yes, fortunately I had my boyfriend to keep me company while we waited
Speaker 2: and we talked about what the appropriate response would be for when she arrived.
Speaker 2: He wanted to call her out for making us wait so long. I thought that would set a bad tone for the brunch. Of course when she showed up the first words out of her mouth where I'm so sorry, I lost track of time. I felt obligated to say that's okay because I didn't know what else to say.
Speaker 2: What do you recommend for a situation like this or in general for dealing with a friend who is habitually late.
Speaker 2: She's my friend, so I don't want to be overly rude to her, but I'm starting to think that she doesn't care about wasting my time sincerely. Hillary
Speaker 2: what I like about you have
Speaker 1: a mother like don't don't don't selling out his mom on radio or a podcast. Um I don't know man. I think at some point you got to talk to someone um you know, or when they show up, it might be that thing where you say,
Speaker 1: hey, you know
Speaker 1: Ashley, I'm really glad you did remember. Unfortunately. You know, tim and I now have to go, um but you know, have a great rest of your day and let's try to do this again next weekend.
Speaker 2: I'm remembering that moment in class when the teacher doesn't show up and there's the student, who knows how long you have to wait before you get to leave, without getting docked different schools. Different amounts of time. But yeah, so maybe a 20 minutes, 20 half hour if you've been sitting at the table and they haven't showed and there hasn't been a text or a call, I
Speaker 1: say I say that
Speaker 1: after, after 10 minutes of sitting there without them showing up, I definitely order beverage for sure if I haven't already done that and after 15, between 10 to 20 minutes somewhere in there when you start to get either uncomfortable or like alright man, this is pressing on my day, I say somewhere between um well maybe not 10, maybe 15, 15 to 30 depending on who you are and what your own day is scheduled. Like
Speaker 1: that's when I
Speaker 1: order or decide I'm not gonna eat there and I text my friend and say, hey listen, you know, I, I just, I did have something I had to do after this. Um a little worried about you getting here and us being able to really enjoy your time together, let's just reschedule for a different day. Um If it's not going to go that way, she had her boyfriend there to keep her company.
Speaker 1: Um I say enjoy brunch with the boyfriend. You know, just turn it into your time together. Your friend can show up and you know, you can let her know. Yeah, we've we've got another hour, we can hang out while you order something or you know,
Speaker 2: we're wrapping it up. Yeah, we're wrapping it up. You want to order, go for it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll sit with you while you get started. Um But I I say take ownership of your time
Speaker 1: and um in terms of what to say to your friend, all the things we've just said are good things to say
Speaker 1: when they apologize. I totally understand the obligation to say that's okay. There are times when if it really is okay. I had my friend Caitlin and I were planning um an engagement party for another friend and Caitlin wound up being quite a bit late to our meeting, but I had nothing else to do that night. I got to sit and have a nice t I relaxed. I read the paper so I took ownership of that time as something to turn into something enjoyable rather than something that was stressful and when she got in and said oh I'm so sorry, I'm late, I can't believe I made you wait this long. I was just like
Speaker 1: totally okay, I've been reading the paper, I've been doing this, I've been doing that like don't worry about it. It's like my my view on other people being late is that
Speaker 1: use the time for something else. You know if the date's late to pick me up, I do my dishes, you know or I spend a little more time getting ready or I take Benny for a walk, like
Speaker 1: around the neighborhood really close by. Um But you know, it's like you find ways to utilize that time rather than let it just fester.
Speaker 2: I love that. And I think that's core advice. Cool. If you need to save the relationship, do you talk to the person later on about the pattern about the consistent not that's not the shaming when you do show up that day, 10
Speaker 1: Minutes 10-15 minutes late. I think sometimes you just have to get used to people who are that way they're bad time managers. Um
Speaker 2: They don't think of it as offering a couple of friends, mind when people do it to them are
Speaker 1: like that. And um it's interesting because I've actually heard feedback from some people that that they see
Speaker 1: who are like, you know, it's actually a problem when they're late for me because I have a schedule that I'm keeping and quite literally the person I'm thinking of like the schedule she's keeping is one where there are other people dependent on. It
Speaker 2: really becomes a criminal
Speaker 1: offense. Yeah, right. Um but I think if it's, you know, if it's just casual, if you know, they're always going to be a half hour late to the dinner party,
Speaker 1: tell them a half hour early, you know, just or remind them, hey I'm looking to serve dinner at eight, so I really need you to show up at seven.
Speaker 2: We always say to employers, set your employees up for success, set your friends up for success, give them the expectation that that they can fulfill and meet Hillary.
Speaker 1: We hope that that helps give you some ideas about how to both handle it um in the moment and also how to deal with it
Speaker 1: with your friend either later on or at a different time or if it really starts to affect affect your friendship.
Speaker 1: Our next question begins, I am 61 years old and recently married, my husband's parents are both alive and well, thank goodness. And recently sent flowers and mass cards for my mother's funeral. The problem is I've never called them either by their first name or by mom and dad.
Speaker 1: I've been with them several times and we simply just talk and I haven't had to address them.
Speaker 1: I asked my husband what I should do and he said just use their first names and I'm not comfortable doing that. Someone else said use Mr and Mrs, but I'm not sure that's right either. Should I just start the note with thank you and go from there any ideas
Speaker 2: you have stumped the panel almost almost the panel and that this is one of those. It's a classic etiquette problem essentially. You don't know how to address somebody. But what makes it adds a delicious layer of complication is that these are people you're incredibly close to, you know, um, and and that does that that that complicates the problem. You know,
Speaker 1: what complicates the problem is that the answer we would have given is the same as the husbands. I think they're married. She can use the first name.
Speaker 1: But what's really hard is, and especially because she checked with him and he would know whether that
Speaker 2: was where I was going to. The hard part is that she
Speaker 1: said she's not comfortable doing that. Now we have a problem.
Speaker 2: And because she's done the other thing, she's talked to the husband, she's gotten the answer from the person who is the intermediate in the relationship.
Speaker 2: Um, you talked to him and you take, you take the opportunity next time you see him, you say, you know, I find this so strange and maybe deliciously awkward. But when I, when it was time to address a thank you card to you, I I realized that we never talked about what I, what I'm going to call you. Here's
Speaker 1: the thing though, this thank you card is for her mother's funeral. So she actually, you know, it's a sympathy card. It's an acknowledged acknowledgement of the sympathy card.
Speaker 1: So she actually does kind of want to get it right and do the proper thing with it.
Speaker 1: And I'm not sure she can wait to write the
Speaker 2: card. So if, if this isn't, if the, if you don't see them regularly enough to ask the question in a socially, in a socially casual and comfortable way, um you can always defer to the more formal standard that's never gonna be wrong and
Speaker 2: just use the titles and the names the way you would,
Speaker 1: although these are your new parents
Speaker 2: and they might feel like that's introduced some distance in the relation. I don't think they're going to take offense, particularly in an acknowledgement of a sympathy card. Most people are going to be looking for that to be a point of contention.
Speaker 1: So here's the answer is that you can either go defer to the formal, which is what we always say. Or I say that because the husband gave the permission, I would go, if I were in your situation, I would
Speaker 1: just bite the bullet and go with writing dear and use their
Speaker 2: first names. Listen to the Absolutely my advice would start. She can get comfortable with that. if you can't, if you just can't reconcile that with yourself, you're okay using the titles for now. It's also really, really okay to talk to them about it. It's it's later mistake situation and
Speaker 2: they might come up with a really fun there might, there might be a term of affection that they really like and enjoy
Speaker 1: regardless. Congratulations on your marriage. And we are so sorry to hear about the passing of your mother,
Speaker 1: but we hope that you have a little bit of solace in an answer to your question that could go either way you're going to be in good stead.
Speaker 2: Our next question has to do with setting up a home. It begins, I was given a cake in a Pyrex dish and a hydrangea as a welcome to the neighborhood gift. I was going to return the Pyrex dish with a thank you note, but a few friends have said it was part of the gift. Is it? What would you do if it's not a gift? I don't want my new neighbor to think I kept her dish
Speaker 2: lisa.
Speaker 1: Oh, lisa understand this one definitely don't assume that it's a gift because you're right. Exactly. If you don't want, if it isn't a gift and you've kept it then you kind of already have some strange will not ill will, but just strange will between you and your neighbors. So um I say never assume always offer to return. And if they tell you to keep it, then you get a new Pyrex
Speaker 2: dish. Your mom has a neat little
Speaker 2: tip or trick about this her name on the bottom of things to make it clear. Yeah. When she brains dishes to contribute to these these types of events, it's a sticky note on the bottom of it and then helps the host know who it came from particular. They've gotten a lot of these, but it's not at all unusual for people to bring a dish that they think is going to be returned
Speaker 1: and just do remember to let your host. No, if you did use a sticky note because you don't want that going into a gas oven,
Speaker 1: just saying, just
Speaker 2: saying
Speaker 1: so. We hope that helps and welcome to the neighborhood.
Speaker 1: Our next question begins, Hi lizzie and dan, I hope you can help me with a workplace etiquette question that I struggle with on a daily basis.
Speaker 1: Every office has one. I call them the wanderer that one employee who wanders around the office with no sense of urgency about doing their job, or letting you do yours by engaging you in seemingly endless conversation about things in their life that are inappropriate for the workplace. And or an interesting in general,
Speaker 1: my coworkers and I are divided on this. Some will simply avoid the person. Others will remove themselves by sometimes walking out of their own office when trapped in conversations as if they suddenly have to go somewhere hoping that the person doesn't follow.
Speaker 1: But if you're polite like me, sorry, that's great. Um you will let them talk for an appropriate length of time, but not encourage the conversation by asking questions to show interest in their ramblings. Using my strategy is often a detriment to my productivity and I would prefer to avoid these interactions altogether.
Speaker 1: My coworkers and I have a system to be saved. You can send a text message of May day to another coworker. If you receive a made a text, it means that person is trapped and need to be saved.
Speaker 1: A phone call will often be enough to get the wanderer to leave. What's the best thing to do when trapped by the wanderer without being rude or mean, thanks kate
Speaker 2: kate. Your question is delightful and his rightful and it's one of the sample difficult situations that we solve in our business and it gets seminars, this is not, not, not an uncommon situation and
Speaker 2: I'm going to give you the stock standard advice and we'll work out from there. And that's the magic words are magic. It's really time for you to take control of the situation.
Speaker 2: Put aside any feelings of victimhood that you might be feeling or like you're you're not in control in this situation because you absolutely are. Um the magic words are, excuse me, pardon me. Uh
Speaker 2: even I'm so sorry, I don't have time right now, but I really love
Speaker 1: that one. I'm so sorry, I don't have time right now to talk, but you know, and I could grab lunch or something.
Speaker 2: Magic words make things happen, they get you out of all kinds of difficult situations,
Speaker 2: pardon me, I'm working really hard on X, Y or Z right now. Maybe we could check in about this later. If you stay pretty diligent and pretty consistent about excusing yourself from conversations, people are going to get the message pretty quickly and if they don't, you just stay consistent and you stay deliberate about your willingness to stay focused on your own work and
Speaker 2: um those social
Speaker 2: expectations that you feel aren't obligations and to the extent that people are able to
Speaker 2: to leverage your niceness, your willingness to engage, you need to be just as willing to disengage and take control of your professional life and
Speaker 1: have the confidence to disengage.
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, and it's a trick, but just remember those magic words because they really are there the linchpin to finding the language in the scripts that are going to get you out of those conversations.
Speaker 1: That's like good advice. But what about the made a thing do you think because they're picking up their phone in the middle of a conversation with someone and texting someone else? I think the mayday things kind of rude
Speaker 2: all sounded a little strange to me.
Speaker 1: I thought so like, you know,
Speaker 2: and it starts to make a
Speaker 2: a game. Yeah. And and some some fun. Yes, there's a there's a hint of that, there's a hint of sort of looking down your nose, this person doesn't know what's going on and
Speaker 1: its growth
Speaker 2: and and and at the same time it's a reality. I can understand how you feel playful and how it could start to develop, but, but I'd be really careful because if I found out people did that to me I would be really hurt and you want to be careful. Yeah,
Speaker 1: just that would not be fun. So yeah, I love dan's suggestion, definitely roll with it and hopefully you'll have a more productive work day.
Speaker 2: Our next question makes me just a little bit jealous. It begins because it's brunch, greetings, brunch season is upon us and we just hosted our first one this year, we informally rotate hosting duties and our friend group and the event is potluck style with the host providing a few dishes plus beverages and each family bringing a dish to share.
Speaker 2: Everybody is very courteous in enquiring about and honoring dietary preferences and there is usually a concerted effort to make sure that each person whether dairy free gluten free vegan etcetera,
Speaker 2: has a good selection of dishes to choose from. One couple in particular is vegan, and we constantly keep that in mind when planning events such as this. Though, as you can imagine coordinating an egg, milk, butter, meat and honey. Fresh mortgage board is its own challenge. We are happy to accommodate them.
Speaker 2: I was vegan myself for a few years and I know how isolating it is to attend a food focused event and have no option except fruit and crudity.
Speaker 2: The problem is that nearly always this vegan couple backs out of events at the last minute. By this point, everybody has already decided on what to bring to the event, done their shopping and perhaps done some or all of the preparation. Many friends modify their dishes, choose another option entirely or cook a second vegan friendly option based specifically on whether or not this couple says they will attend.
Speaker 2: However, with the repeated absences of our vegan friends, I'm starting to get exasperated at the waste of time and energy. Everybody puts into making specially prepared food for these. No shows how should I address this? Do we stop inviting the vegans? Do we have a chat with them? Is there a third or fourth option that I'm not considering?
Speaker 2: I don't know how to bring this up with them without sounding whiny about what a drag it is to make vegan food
Speaker 2: or how difficult it is to think of anything they can eat, neither of which are true and both of which would serve to alienate them from are omnivorous group. We are perfectly happy
Speaker 2: to put the extra time and effort into providing options to all of our guests. But doing so for not is disappointing for everyone. Thanks in advance for your guidance regards. Bummed in brunch, land
Speaker 1: bummed in brunch land. I'm bummed for you.
Speaker 2: I'm not jealous any longer.
Speaker 1: I'm not jealous any longer either. But I do still really want brunch.
Speaker 1: Um
Speaker 1: this, this is a really tough one and I love, I love how
Speaker 1: accommodating and um consider it. Just simply your question is, you know, you're really, you know, at the end when she's gotten all caps, you know what a drag it is, how difficult it is. These are the things that she's saying like, I don't want it to sound like this, but the truth of the matter is it is extra steps for us to cook for these people
Speaker 1: and I want to do that if they're going to be here, but if they're not going to be here, I don't wanna have to do the extra work.
Speaker 2: This is really rude behavior. The most really difficult situation
Speaker 1: really does. Um And man, that's that's definitely tough. I think that um you know obviously the harsh answer is yeah, stop inviting them options, option one, stop inviting them.
Speaker 1: But if you don't, if you if you really truly enjoy this families
Speaker 1: time and you love your, sorry, you enjoy their company and you love spending time with them, you want to keep them and clearly want to keep them included. Then I think it's one where you just need to talk to them and say,
Speaker 1: You know, I've noticed that the past 3, 45 branches you guys have said you're coming and then and then kind of canceled the day before or you know the morning of and it's just it's starting to become a little bit difficult on food prep.
Speaker 1: Um You know, everyone's taking into consideration that you you all are going to attend and they're making vegan dishes for you.
Speaker 1: Um That way you're not saying difficult dishes, they're doing extra dishes for, it's just they're making vegan dishes for you and then when you don't show up,
Speaker 1: you know, it kind of feels like, oh
Speaker 1: mm
Speaker 1: okay, so I didn't need to make that dish um and I think if you said something like that, that and even that, you know, that's that's the harsher side of what I normally advise you say and I think it's because it is a little bit of a difficult, a difficult one to put lightly. Um but I would say something along those lines and say, you know, we really want to have you guys be apart of brunch but we kind of need, if you're if you're going to say yes, we need it to be a firm. Yes. By
Speaker 1: the day before,
Speaker 2: I like that sort of the firm. Yes, Category B
Speaker 1: A firm. Yes.
Speaker 2: That it's not just like, oh, I'd love to come to that brunch. Oh, I'm not gonna be able to make it. I want a little bit of, I want some investment, some commitment,
Speaker 1: right? Because at that point you bought everything to make, I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: well, and as a host, you're, you've got a whole group of people coordinating and you don't want to, you want to help them not end up the social pariah and you don't want people to feel exasperated and how difficult they are. Well
Speaker 1: and it's like not just the host is making the food for these people. It sounds like the other guests. Sometimes we'll take care of bringing a vegan dish or to themselves. And
Speaker 1: that it really does start to become just really inconsiderate on this one family's part if they are ditching out on this brunch where people are
Speaker 1: going extra lengths to make nice food for them. I want to know what happens when the vegans host, like do people just not show up to them and I'm assuming that they aren't being asked to cook meat or to make things with eggs and cheese in them so they might not be experiencing the same kind of
Speaker 1: um
Speaker 1: uh preparation that goes into their attending brunch because obviously the dish that they would bring would be a vegan dish. I don't meet a lot of vegetarians and vegans who cooked meat or will work with meat. Even some of them will some, but I haven't met very many who do, but
Speaker 2: a lot aren't going to want to serve out of their kitchen.
Speaker 1: So they might, yeah and they might they might totally be fine with you bringing meat over or
Speaker 1: um That sort of thing. Obviously they're fine with me being served and eggs and cheese being served in other dishes. Um But not the ones made for them and I'm just wondering if maybe they don't have the same perspective because they aren't ever having to prepare for a different dietary
Speaker 1: need
Speaker 2: and playing that role of host and that they might modify some of them
Speaker 1: even if they hosted all the dishes that they host with are going to be vegan dishes. If if they're the types of vegans who don't cook with with products that they're not comfortable
Speaker 1: digesting or eating them.
Speaker 2: Sounds like all the guests are going to bring dishes also. Right.
Speaker 1: Right. But
Speaker 1: but I'm just saying like all the other, all the other times when the other guests who eat dairy and meat host,
Speaker 1: they are trying to create a vegan dish to accommodate these guests that are coming to their house. Whereas the vegans when they do, you see where I'm coming with it now, when the vegans host, they're probably not doing anything to accommodate anybody else because all the things that they eat are things everyone else can eat.
Speaker 2: That's a really interesting.
Speaker 1: They just might not have the perspective that everyone else actually goes through a lot of effort. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 2: option for is emerging and I don't know, not object has something to do. But it's curious perspective.
Speaker 1: It's just a perspective to bear in mind that they might not have the perspective of, oh everyone's going through a lot to make sure we have a good amount of food at the table.
Speaker 2: That's, to me that's um an argument in favor of having the chat. Yeah, that's what I'm saying, totally make the chat as low stakes as possible. I think, I think we're coming around to that. It's it's, I mean this is brunch, this is supposed to be fun to touch base with them. The thing that I just said, don't say
Speaker 1: that in the chat,
Speaker 1: just be aware of the fact that they just might not get it. So it's ok to bring it up to them that say, you know, hey,
Speaker 1: it would just be good to know because it does take all of us a little bit more to prepare a vegan dish and we're happy to do it because we love having you here and we want you to eat and you as someone who was vegan um bummed and brunch land can actually say, man, do I get it? But
Speaker 1: I just we're not
Speaker 2: treating them this way because they're vegan, it's not because they're vegans that you said, I need to be sure you're coming because they didn't show up a couple times and that definitely earns them the discussion,
Speaker 1: hey leo, and you were constantly making these paleo dishes for them, you would say the same thing. It doesn't matter that they don't eat meat and eggs and cheese, you know, or honey as well,
Speaker 1: but it's um
Speaker 1: yeah, it's, I definitely think that you can have this conversation and it's just focus on the fact that you need their yes to be a firm. Yes, and it's okay if they give that, you know, a couple of days, like as a group come up with a timeframe that you'd be okay
Speaker 1: receiving that yes, by and having them confirmed by and I say make it close,
Speaker 1: you know, at this point you all have been brunching together for a little while. You got some vegan dishes up your sleeves. I'm pretty sure you can make this work on a day or two's notice. So that would be my suggestion
Speaker 2: or to stop inviting them. But that's tough. I think that's really
Speaker 1: tough anyway. We hope brunch is a little bit better next weekend.
Speaker 2: Tricia makes the best holidays.
Speaker 1: I know that's my mother. I really want brunch now. We may have to stop somewhere on the way back from the studio.
Speaker 2: I'm down. Won't
Speaker 1: you have some jelly roll.
Speaker 1: Well now wasn't that better? Look at the effect of a little politeness.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Thanks to everyone for sending in your questions and remember we love updates if we answered your question on the show or if you have a comment about one of our questions, feel free to send it in. You can also submit your question to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com or send it in via facebook or twitter. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette so that we know
Speaker 1: you want it on the show.
Speaker 2: Damn.
Speaker 2: Um
Speaker 2: in today's post script, I want to take a minute to introduce you to one of my favorite books about rudeness and bad behavior. And it's called the cost of bad behavior, how incivility is damaging your business and what to do about it. This book was written by Christine's Pearson and Porath and it's really a remarkable, uh
Speaker 2: it's a remarkable look at some academic research that they did and they looked at incidents of incivility in the workplace and how it affected people. And then they did a quantitative analysis. They used worker productivity values and time multipliers
Speaker 2: to estimate what the costs are of incivility or rude behavior in the workplace to organizations of all different sizes, from the absolute biggest global corporations, to small businesses, from Cisco and Starbucks, to the Emily Post institute, small family business.
Speaker 2: I learned a lot from this book. One of the things that I really learned was they use a definition for incivility or for rude behavior that I found very useful because rudeness can be hard to
Speaker 2: to get clear about to be specific about what it is, because it means different things to different people. So in this book, they said,
Speaker 2: are they defined in civility as And I'm quoting the exchange of seemingly inconsequential, inconsiderate words and deeds that violate conventional norms.
Speaker 2: And
Speaker 2: it's such a soft definition. I know, and they even talk about why they chose to use the word seemingly so later on in the page, and we did not set this up. They actually reply.
Speaker 2: We incorporated the term seemingly inconsequential into our definition of incivility because we discovered that it didn't manifest the sort of blatant, harmful intent that appears in incidence of workplace aggression and violence. Wow, rude behavior is bad, but it's not so bad that someone's going to say something to you about it. Fair, you overturn and run the other way or
Speaker 2: or do something of a lawsuit, make such a strong impression that you have to deal with it. It's almost worse because they're these minor offenses there, the seemingly inconsequential person
Speaker 1: attractions, the times I've had them done to me. I focus way more on those than things in my life that I've ever been.
Speaker 1: Big, hard difficult. Like in your face problems. Yes. And that's because those things, it's so gosh, darn clear the others. It's like you need other people to validate that this was terrible.
Speaker 2: What am I going to do about it? And they talk about in this book, They talk about how it is
Speaker 2: incidents of rudeness, incivility affect the witnesses as much as they affect the person that experiences it. I agree. These these seemingly inconsequential offenses
Speaker 2: inspire the fight or flight response. So they inspire the emotional responses that we're all um subject to. And
Speaker 2: because they seem inconsequential, we sometimes don't feel good about those emotional responses. Don't know how to deal with them. Don't know how to process them. And it's really difficult. And the thing that you talked about some of the costs of bad behavior when we talk about, uh, did you leave your job over it? Very small percentage. Do did you lose work time worrying? Absolutely. Did you lose work time avoiding the instigator?
Speaker 1: Yes. Did you cause other people to lose work time by talking to them about it?
Speaker 2: Did you become a, did it become a distraction more broadly or here's another one? That's surprising. Did you intentionally decrease your work effort? Well, if that's the way they feel about it or if that's the way they behave on that project, I'm just gonna do this or I'm going to do something else or we'll see when they get that. The cost of bad behavior. And boy, when you start putting productivity time multipliers on those, someone witnesses a boss yell at someone when they sit down at their desk.
Speaker 2: The next thing they're thinking isn't, what do I do it? I can't believe she just talked to him that way.
Speaker 2: Cost of bad behavior right there. But
Speaker 2: the book is amazing. I want to talk more about that at some point. But it's this idea that rudeness isn't so bad and that makes it worse that I really wanted to share with people today because it was it changed my perspective a little bit and it made me take more seriously the little things. And we often talk about taking our
Speaker 2: impressions of rude behavior that we see other places and thinking about them ourselves. I want to take this opportunity, think broadly about the concept of rudeness, that you might see other places and
Speaker 2: take a moment that
Speaker 2: think about it myself because it really is. It's the little things that matter and they add up in the end and they have an impact.
Speaker 1: It's definitely food for thought and I think it will definitely make us all a little bit more aware. Could postscript an
Speaker 1: Mhm.
Speaker 1: Oh,
Speaker 1: did you hear that?
Speaker 1: She says you're not as rude as you used to be, What do you know?
Speaker 1: Yeah,
Speaker 1: we like to end every awesome etiquette episode. On a positive note, by giving an etiquette salute to one of our listeners. This week we had a um I thought it was, it was quite a glowing salute from Amanda. It was very sweet. So without further ado,
Speaker 1: Dear lizzie and dan, thank you for providing your podcast listeners with the opportunity to nominate candidates for the awesome etiquette salute. It's great to hear about people who have made their lives and the lives of those around them better by simply making thoughtfulness a priority. I would like to nominate my boyfriend George for an awesome etiquette salute,
Speaker 1: George was able to effortlessly set me at ease from the very first time we met
Speaker 1: George and I met through an online dating website about seven months ago. I had met other men during my foray into online dating before meeting George. And the first thing that clearly set him apart from the others was his impeccable manners. Not only was he consider it to suggest a place that would be convenient for me. Show up on time and pick up the check.
Speaker 1: But he led the conversation into light hearted and easy topics that were appropriate for our first meeting.
Speaker 1: He showed genuine interest in what I had to say and gave a first impression of someone who was happy, confident and fun to be around at the end of the date. He didn't put me on the spot by asking me for a second date or even for my phone number, but sent me a message through the website, thanking me for a lovely evening, sharing his personal contact information and asking me for a second date at that time.
Speaker 1: After this first encounter with George, I confided to my mother that no matter what the outcome my bar has been raised, a higher standard had been set and I would only want to date someone as considerate and as much of a gentleman as George as I've gotten to know George better over the past several months. He has proven again and again,
Speaker 1: that awesome etiquette is a guiding principle of his life.
Speaker 1: He has a huge circle of considerate, thoughtful friends. He has an ex wife who has shown me genuine warmth and even volunteered to keep their nine year old daughter on valentine's day so that he and I could spend it together after a very pleasant dinner at a sandwich shop with his daughter where she proved herself to be as engaging and friendly as her father.
Speaker 1: She even offered to take my trash for me.
Speaker 1: I really do believe it is the good manners that George was brought up with, that come across in absolutely everything he does and define him as an exceptional person. And this is why I am nominating him for an awesome etiquette salute sincerely. Amanda austin texas.
Speaker 1: Is that not just a glowing
Speaker 2: salute? I want to nominate Amanda for an etiquette salute for writing such a remarkable, thoughtful, warming etiquette salute.
Speaker 1: I love it girl, you give me hope men like George out
Speaker 2: there, truly, Amanda, that was so in the spirit of the etiquette salute, you really brought a little, you brought a little warmth to my heart today. Thank
Speaker 1: you. Don't start just keep being you
Speaker 1: about everything you do no matter what you try to be, what you really are when you know, let's like get to know you shine like a star long as I got to love all the batter made.
Speaker 1: That's our show for today. As always, thank you for listening and spending some of your day with us. We hope that you have a wonderful rest of your week and don't forget there's no show without you. So send us your questions, your etiquette salutes and your suggestions to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com and remember if you like what you hear, don't be shy, tweeted and facebook post it
Speaker 1: and of course you can subscribe on itunes and leave us a review. In fact,
Speaker 1: that is the best way to say thank you
Speaker 1: on facebook where the Emily Post Institute on twitter, I'm at lizzie a post. That's lizzie with an i E
Speaker 2: and I'm at Daniel underscore post
Speaker 1: or you can visit our website Emily Post dot com. Our theme music was composed and performed by bob Wagner.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I got love
Speaker 1: Yeah,
Speaker 1: long.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Oh