Episode 310 - Sneak Peak
In this episode of Awesome Etiquette
Welcome to Awesome Etiquette, where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. On today’s show we take your questions on: curse words around kiddos, putting step parents on the wedding invitations, a follow-up to last week’s lunch date dilemma, pre-cutting your meat before the meal. For Awesome Etiquette sustaining members your question is about what to do with a wedding gift from a very badly behaved guest. Plus your most excellent feedback, etiquette salute and post script segment where Lizzie shares a draft section of the 20th edition of Etiquette.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social
Speaker 1: watch. How
Speaker 2: busy post and damn posts actors hosting.
Speaker 2: They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person, really friendly.
Speaker 2: Hello and welcome toe Awesome etiquette for
Speaker 1: re explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty.
Speaker 2: On today's show, we take your questions on curse words around kiddos, putting step parents on the wedding invitations follow up the last weeks lunch date dilemma and pre cutting your meat before the meal
Speaker 1: for awesome etiquette sustaining members. Our question of the week is about what to do with a wedding gift from a badly behaved guest,
Speaker 2: plus your most excellent feedback. And this week it is indeed excellent
Speaker 2: etiquette salute and a post group segment where Lizzie shares a little something that she's been working on part of the coming 20th edition of etiquette.
Speaker 1: All that's coming up
Speaker 1: Awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute. I'm Lizzie Post,
Speaker 2: and I'm Dan Post sending
Speaker 1: because how's it going?
Speaker 1: It's going. I feel like this is always like the end of the summer craziness. You know where you're you're both trying to enjoy because, you know, you can feel the cooler mornings starting to happen.
Speaker 2: Finding that is winding
Speaker 1: down. You know, I this is I will use the word hate bringing this up every single summer. I tell Dan No, we can't talk about the weather starting to change braving it this year. But it does kind of have that feel. I'm starting to do things like, get my canning efforts together, you know, and wanting to make sure I get out to certain places, you know, one last time or maybe a a time before, so yeah. No, it's got that feeling to summer.
Speaker 2: I was gonna say Happy Friday. We're recording on a Friday, but it's kind of the Friday of the year in some
Speaker 1: ways. Way. Why is that? Well, think
Speaker 2: the end of the week. It's about the transition. You're gonna feel the week winding down a little
Speaker 1: bit. But you're not there yet,
Speaker 1: Dan. Tickets to like a plunging off a cliff face.
Speaker 1: I like
Speaker 1: Friday of summer.
Speaker 1: Oh, goodness. Uh, well, what have you guys been up to? What's been going on in your world.
Speaker 2: Oh, so much. It's been awesome. Um, I am so excited this afternoon. My parents bring home their new puppy, so we have,
Speaker 1: ah, social distance
Speaker 2: gathering plan down on their lawn for all of the granddaughters to meet Ernie. The little blond lab puppy, I think is all of eight weeks right now.
Speaker 1: Oh, wow. That'll be, I'm sure overwhelming for all falling
Speaker 2: out of my skin. I can't. I've been waiting for this Davor Lake,
Speaker 2: you know, months now and I'm trying to get the girls excited. They don't get it yet. I'm just like you're gonna have the cute little puppy in your wife, and you're gonna love them so much.
Speaker 1: That's very, very exciting. Well, I'm happy to welcome Ernie to the greater post family. Thank you as well as well.
Speaker 2: So there was an etiquette thought that I connected to thinking about our little gathering this afternoon and we had a little gathering last weekend. Also, I think sort of feeling the end of summer, and some good old friends we hadn't seen in six months came and visited for a social distance swim in the pond.
Speaker 2: And it was so much fun. We had such a good time. And when it was over, everybody had left. Pooja turned to me and she says, You know, I really like entertaining with Cove in 19 rules,
Speaker 1: really? And I sort of looked at. A lot of people are not having that experience.
Speaker 2: No. And here's here's what the fall of
Speaker 1: what she embracing.
Speaker 2: I didn't have to do anything. They never even came inside our house.
Speaker 2: Everyone brought their own food. Everyone brought their own entertainment. Everyone brought their own beer. Everyone
Speaker 1: took care of themselves. I feel like doing it. Just poach knows picnics exist because that's like exactly you're describing, like a picnic or inviting people to go to like a park location, you know, and like like organizing, entertaining, that kind of way. Maybe what pooches figuring out is that that's more her entertaining style, that that's like the style that gets her jazzed and excited about getting together with people.
Speaker 2: She likes that social environment so much. She's a much more social person than me, and I do think things that make it easier to get in that space. Um,
Speaker 2: she
Speaker 1: gravitates towards absolutely, totally well, then that makes sense. The covert entertaining would be something she's she's enjoying. So this was kind
Speaker 2: of an etiquette. He thought that was in my mind. And then I read the article that you added to our newsletter about covert entertaining, and there was, ah, item on it. That was about the new acceptability of B y o B or just B Y o everything
Speaker 1: it was going to say. And it has its in America. I just do want to give a shout out. I've seen some articles recently about different cultures in the idea of whether or not you would ever ask people to bring food or bring something, or whether you always host and and that it is different all throughout different social groups and different cultures. But it is OK. It's not like it's not okay, there are places for it. If it's done well, right?
Speaker 2: Of course. And those air very popular, entertaining styles. Let's just say that having that be the default setting
Speaker 2: provided a certainties in some ways.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I know. I could imagine that I could imagine that audience. I'm curious. What have been your entertaining experiences during Covidien? Are you enjoying the kind of b y o B and separateness of it all. Or does it feel like a pain? And you miss being able to kind of be closer and have those big grazing tables and things like that? I'm curious how people are feeling about it and what their experience with entertaining has been well, and it's nice to take
Speaker 2: care of guests. There is a certain it. I like providing food, offering a little refreshment when someone's not expecting it. And I'm not denying any of that,
Speaker 2: maybe sort of looking for a little ease in the moment.
Speaker 1: Well, then I definitely appreciate the encouragement to sort of embrace what what I think could be looked at as a difficult, you know, social situation, but instead really embrace and get it to a positive space. But we could also think of our sustaining members as guests over on our patri on platform, and I know that you have some really cool news to announce before we dive into some questions. I do, and this is
Speaker 2: something that's kind of been brewing for a couple of weeks, and it started when I discovered that are the feed for our podcast had been limited to 200 episodes just as a default setting. So when we would tell people,
Speaker 1: I'll go back and listen
Speaker 2: to the archive as we got past Show 200 the very first show started to fall out of availability on most podcast players,
Speaker 2: so we removed that limit. The complete archive is now available,
Speaker 2: but it got me thinking about our archive and about our patrons over on Patri on where we don't have the complete archive and Teoh move our archive over to Patron takes a little bit of doing, actually to transfer all the files. But we've been doing that, and the benefit of it is that we now are starting to populate Patri on with an adds free version of our archive. We started on Wednesday with Episode one today. Friday Episode two comes up, but I wanted to make announcement about it on the show were tagging those posts as archive so you can go to Patri on and click the archive tag box, and you'll get all those archives shows in order.
Speaker 2: If you're getting the feed sent directly to a podcast player, you're going to see a couple extra shows each week that are gonna have really early episode numbers on them, and I wanted to just put a little heads up out there so people would know exactly what it is. There's no way to separate the archive shows from the new shows, so you can continue to count on your new show every Monday. Your bonus question every Monday, sustaining members but
Speaker 1: also keep an eye
Speaker 2: open because a couple other days a week we're gonna be
Speaker 2: releasing that archives show by show until it is up there in its entirety.
Speaker 1: I was so glad when you when you broke with that news. I
Speaker 2: know it's It's something that I'm really excited about. It's got me listening to the really old shows again. I'm having that experience of going back to archive the way listeners sometimes describe. And there are a couple other things going on with the show. Last week we talked about the new website that Lizzie and I are working on and that we were building a home for awesome etiquette there, and one of the things that has already developed out of that project is that we will be having original pages for every show and in thinking about what toe put on that show. There's a piece of feedback we've been getting for years, and that's that. Audience members would really appreciate transcripts of thes shows,
Speaker 2: and we've started to generate transcripts beginning last week. Episode 309 And it's not a perfect transcript. It's computer generated, but it really it is remarkably good. It gives a real sense for the show. You can use it to navigate the show. You can scroll through the transcript and jump by clicking on the text. Teoh different places in the recording.
Speaker 2: It's a future that
Speaker 2: is something we've really wanted for a long time, and we're so excited to be launching it that we're not waiting till the new site is available to tell you about it.
Speaker 1: It is so awesome, and we are so excited to offer this. You can access the transcripts by going Teoh Emily post dot com slash awesome etiquette and right on that home page for the show. We're gonna have the links to the transcripts until you'll be viewing them over at our new site in hopefully a month or two. Think a month. I think it's safe.
Speaker 1: OK, ok. I didn't want to pressure,
Speaker 1: but, Dan, thank you for those updates. I am really excited for our sustaining members toe have access to the entire archive
Speaker 1: and for these transcripts to be available. So we're really thrilled to continue pushing what we're able to offer for awesome.
Speaker 1: Well, don't you think we should
Speaker 2: offer up some questions? So we've got something to transcribe.
Speaker 1: Hey, it wouldn't be this show without a great pun with our transition. So let's get to some questions.
Speaker 2: Let's do it.
Speaker 2: Awesome Etiquette is here to answer your questions. You can email them awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 80 to 8585463 You can also reach us on Social Media on Twitter were at Emily Post Institute on Instagram. We're at Emily Post Institute on Facebook were awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the show.
Speaker 1: Our first question is titled Curse Words and Kiddos Hi, Lizzie and Dan. When addressing the use of bad language around a child. Are there different phrases or conversations that would be appropriate for different people? Family, friends, acquaintances, etcetera? And what would I say if I meet pushback? Oh, he's too young to understand. It's fine,
Speaker 1: thank you is always an
Speaker 2: And isn't it funny how much they actually understand?
Speaker 2: It really amazes me. Um, and that would be my first thought is just the sample script. Oh, boy, I'm consistently surprised at how much she he is picking up all the time.
Speaker 2: As a parent, you know your child better than anyone, or there's a good chance you know your child better than anyone. And you're also more responsible for that child than anyone. As a parent, you get to set boundaries. In fact, that's one of your biggest, most important jobs.
Speaker 2: Part of that boundary setting is that you get to talk to other adults who are in your child's world about what your expectations for them are.
Speaker 2: And for most people, that's going to set expectations for their behavior around the child. If that doesn't work,
Speaker 2: you have some latitude to talk to other people about their behavior. Usually an etiquette, we say. Ah, you're really careful. Proceed with caution. You really want to think about how you can adjust everything that you're doing, and that is going to be part of this answer as well. But I do want Toe just give you the basic off the top advice that it is okay to say something. And it is going to sound different with different people because every relationship is different.
Speaker 1: Exactly, for instance, at home with, I want to say all the other people who may parent this child,
Speaker 1: you know, including older siblings who might be around, you know, old enough who used this language, whether he should or shouldn't. Those air conversations that I think just might have that more personal aspect to it of, you know, we all live in this house or were all the people in my, you know, our child's life weekly? I really want to work on this, so I hope you'll just understand if you hear me making a lot of of little corrections or reminders about it. As we all try to get in the good habit. I think that's the kind of conversation you have with those people who Europe really up close with and who spend a lot of time with your child. I think that with friends, you know, this is where and Dan correct may from wrong. Because I'm not a parent. Has done a lot of the baby sitting, have gotten needs a nephew. But I think that with friends, you might make decisions. You know, how far away was your kid when a swear was issued? And do you say something before friends come over? Or do you make a correction and say the thing? Just when you see it is a problem?
Speaker 1: Maybe one thing you don't speak up about but when the word starts being used, you know frequently on and maybe sometimes, even as people get more comfortable, is there relaxing. You know, that kind of thing. You decide to make a reminder. You say I really should said something before, but we're actually really trying to curb our language around Jackson, you know, and it's just to try to get into the good habit of it. Any help you can give or any help you can, you know, provide any support you can provide, And that would be great while you're hanging out around him.
Speaker 1: I think those are the kinds of ways that you can tap into that with acquaintances. That's where I don't know, Dan. I would. I would really pick and choose the moments you know, especially if it's like,
Speaker 1: If I my I don't know, I could imagine, like running into someone at the grocery store, and maybe they're having a day or it's just slip in their mind and they drop a word in front of you know, your child. That's a moment where I might be surprised, but I might not make an actual correction, you know, like and trust. That's the moment where your child looks up and says, She said a bad word. You know, you're like, I don't need to say anything Junior did it for me.
Speaker 2: I agree. If it's a one off, I think it's hard cause it's like your chasing the mistake and things like this works so much better when it's about anticipating. I loved your advice. If it's someone who you see regularly, who this comes up with giving them a little heads up ahead of time. I love the sample language. When you talked about talking to the person who was very close, who was involved a lot
Speaker 2: and particularly, I like the idea of
Speaker 2: setting them up to be ready for your little reminders, because some languages unconscious or it's just not something they're used to thinking about because they're not as focused as you are on the presence of kids. And those reminders might really be a part of building that new habit and setting that boundary. So setting someone up with a little prep for those things that are likely to be coming, I think, is so wise.
Speaker 2: The other thought that I had was if you did go the route with an acquaintance or a friend who you see less frequently who it doesn't happen as much with that, I would think of limiting myself to mentioning it twice that if you say something
Speaker 1: that they can't pick self rule, maybe you
Speaker 2: give yourself one more mention. And then after that, maybe you say I'm gonna take control of the things I have more control over, which would be to excuse yourself or your child. And
Speaker 2: it depends on how bad it is, how egregious it is, what it is exactly that they're picking up how those words are being used. I
Speaker 2: got to thinking, as I was thinking about this question about my father, some four letter words I knew not to use, but they were
Speaker 2: I could get away with
Speaker 1: it, but others were really
Speaker 2: Take the Lord's name in vain and he would get really upset and like that, that was a line in our house that I knew that yeah, a friend might or might not or might be a different line in a different house. So speaking up in defining those lines for people is part of your job. And also being aware of those lines are different for different people is part of your job.
Speaker 1: Dan, I really like your kind of with acquaintances or friends, doing a like to reminders and then leaving it at that. And I think a good transition point is to use it as an opportunity to talk to your kid about why you choose not to use that language or remind them say, You know, I know you heard some words from so and so this afternoon, but I just want to remind you those aren't words that we're trying to encourage those aren't words. We want to be using their words we try not to use. And so I don't want you. Teoh here are friends doing it and think that they're bad or think that it's okay for us either. And just, you know, figuring out the language for you. That makes sense. Obviously, my mind wasn't that good that time.
Speaker 1: But I think you get the idea that you can also use that as a as a reminder of
Speaker 2: the things that you guys choose not to do as a family. A parting thought that I sometimes have when I think about adult language and kids is that we call it adult language for a reason. And,
Speaker 1: yeah, it
Speaker 2: might be really useful just to have that that distinction in that line, that language in your mind when you're having these discussions, because part of what keeps the language impactful is that we do reserve it for certain circumstances and situations,
Speaker 1: and thank you so much for this question. We hope her answer helps
Speaker 1: you realize that it's simple things, being friendly, thinking of the other person and showing respect
Speaker 1: that make up every day courtesy.
Speaker 1: Our next
Speaker 2: question is about a wedding invitation quandary. What is the proper wording on a wedding invitation when the bride's stepmother does not use the same last name as the bride's father?
Speaker 2: I am the mother of the bride, and I'm also remarried. However, I use my husband's last name. I originally thought on Lee. My name and my husband's name were the only parents names that we're going to be on the invitation. I now find out that the bride's father wants all four names, parents and step parents on the invitation. Most websites state that traditionally only the parents names appear on the invitation, not step parents.
Speaker 2: My daughter originally only wanted my name and her father's name on the invitation. When the engagement announcement appeared in the newspaper, the stepmother was upset that her name was not mentioned. My husband's name was not mentioned either, and he was fine with that.
Speaker 2: Now my daughter doesnt want upset her dad and I am in a quandary about this. I feel three different last names is going to be too much on a formal invitation.
Speaker 2: Anonymous
Speaker 1: Anonymous. There's a lot to unpack here. One of the places where I can see I don't want to describe it this way, but it is. The image in my head is a battle. Brewing is between the idea of what you have to work with with your family and the family of the couple and the websites you're searching and the content that you're sourcing for traditional etiquette standards. And I hope that our answer can blend the two for you so you could be a really happy place because I feel like we have a really easy fix
Speaker 1: if you were able to join us in the space that the fix exists and that Spaces is one of inclusion and for a long time, a long, long time long enough that I would start to consider this advice traditional. Now we have sought to include step parents as long as the person getting married was really comfortable with it and had a good relationship with that person. And it's really important. Teoh remember that so much of etiquette is based in making people feel comfortable and helping toe have good interactions with them. And this is an opportunity for you to create exactly that within your family. I can hear you saying you know Well, my husband's name wasn't mentioned, and he was fine with that, and it's totally okay that he was fine with that. But the step mom wasn't it hurt her feelings, and she has a relationship with the bride, And I think that's important to recognize and say that even if it's it's not one that you would have seen as as standard and what you're used to seeing in those announcements, it is one that would be completely typical today. Very often step parents are mentioned in these types of things. Blended families make up so many of American families that we see all kinds of different versions with multiple names, one of my nearest and dearest. Their entire family has a has a three last name sort of system that they use when they identify themselves, because all three of those last names are present in their little family unit. And so again, etiquette, really today is about being inclusive and finding ways to support the family that you do have and not let
Speaker 1: I want to say the I the idea of design make us cut people out of things. I want instead to say of course, you can put all four people with the three different last names on this invitation, this formal, beautiful invitation to what is probably going to be an incredible wedding.
Speaker 1: It's perfectly acceptable. And I think it's just it's great that Emily Post is in a place with etiquette today where we can say that with a lot of confidence and with years of experience behind seeing it happen, I so appreciate that
Speaker 2: thought. I'm curious. What? Give
Speaker 1: me an
Speaker 2: example. What might that look
Speaker 1: like? So to get to the example. So you would have you the mother of the bride and your husband, the bride. Stepfather On the first line. We always have the mother of the bride on that first line for a wedding invitation and your names as you prefer them. And then the next line down belongs to the father of the bride and his partner or spouse. So in this case, the bright stepmother and their names would go as they prefer them, so you would have Mr Father of the bride and Miss stepmother and last name.
Speaker 1: Then the next line down belongs to the mother of the groom and the stepfather. If There's a stepfather stepmother in that situation and then the father of the groom and his spouse, if he is married or his partner, if they're on the invitation as well. So that's how you would do this. And we say Married and you noticed in the last one, I said. Or Partner Long established partner is also okay in this circumstance, when
Speaker 1: they may not think of Kurt Russell and Goldie Hahn, they never got married. But of course, there the parents, they would, of course, have their names their you know what I mean on DSO This is the way we try to be inclusive is that we respect people's names. We respect the relationships
Speaker 1: and we find a way for order. But families are large now. You know parents and supporters and hosts their sometimes our multiple people on this, and it really is okay to embrace it, even for formal occasions.
Speaker 2: It's funny just looking at it on the paper. There's room for eight
Speaker 2: on on. I say to myself, That's nice. And then any point of any portion of that grid could get reduced down. You could have if if parents weren't divorced, they would occupy the same line, and you just people could could appear or not. But you have an option for placing eight people with that structure. That big picture etiquette thought that came to me as I was thinking about all this was sort of it was a two parter, and I like letting you answer any questions about weddings first, because you have a fuller take. And I really appreciate hearing that mine was so reductionist. I was saying Host, Get the choose who's on the invite. So in this particular case, your hosts is some combination of the couple that are getting married in the parents that are helping pay for it.
Speaker 2: And usually it sounds like there's a pretty strong preference among multiple parties there for including
Speaker 2: broadly all of the parents and step parents.
Speaker 2: And then the second consideration is that people get to decide what they're called and that those were the two big decisions. Who's going to be on it? And then you find out how they like to be addressed, and that's what you do. Not to me really simplifies things, but I
Speaker 2: like the fuller picture because because it makes me feel better
Speaker 1: well anonymous. We hope our answer has you feeling better and feeling formal with this invitation.
Speaker 1: How do you go about me?
Speaker 1: What you doing
Speaker 1: every time I try to make things worse?
Speaker 1: Is there some particular method of being thoughtful works every time?
Speaker 1: Our next
Speaker 2: question is about a lunch date dilemma, and
Speaker 1: this is the
Speaker 2: in law addition.
Speaker 1: Hi, Lizzie and Dan. Thanks. As always for a great show, I so enjoy the listener questions every week. And for your thoughtful response, I have a follow up question toe one of the questions or and answers from Episode 309 where the listener always felt like her friend was hanging back and somewhat expecting her to pay for meals, coffee and other dining experiences. My question is, how do I navigate this with my in laws who often invite our family out for lunch or dinner? On the one hand, they're doing the inviting 98% of the time. On the other hand, it's just two of them, and there are seven of us with small Children but still out balanced and, on the other hand, thirdhand
Speaker 1: establish careers and stable income while my husband and I make a bit less than they dio.
Speaker 1: It's simply not in our budget to go out to eat as often as they invite us. But I feel terrible hanging back and letting my mother in law pay. And I've kind of sensed from her a desire that I, at least occasionally offer to pay. So she has never actually said anything. Thoughts. Rachel
Speaker 1: this'll is a good follow up Dan. What do you think it is? A good
Speaker 2: follow up? And this question references are question from last week about someone who ran in tow, frequent lunch date often hanging back. And it was a professional relationship, and the advice that we gave was broad. We talked about options for
Speaker 2: how you would handle this. If you were a very close friend, you wanted to talk to them about it, or some mawr kind of
Speaker 2: what I call the practical solutions, things you could do in the moment that would make it easier for different people to pay or for the reality of this shared nature of the event to be something both people were aware of.
Speaker 2: This situation is one where you have no option to introduce distance because thes air in laws, they're people that you're very close to their people that are inviting you out regularly and that you like spending time with that's gonna push our answer to this question into that category or that end of the spectrum that says you have to engage and have, ah, a decent and respectful, realistic, open, honest conversation with your in laws.
Speaker 2: And there are a couple of practical things you can do as well that I think will help,
Speaker 2: because before I get to do it Ah, whole lot sort of opening thoughts. What do you think in here?
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, Yes, conversation is a good way to go. I'm thinking I am the style of person who would just lay it all out there and, you know, pull my mother in law side at some point and say, You know, Beth, I've been meaning to ask you about this because I never quite know what to do. And I want to get it right or at least want to know what you all are thinking and expecting. But you offered to take us out, or you you invite us out to dinner
Speaker 1: so often and I never know whether we should offer to pay for all the kids or if it's your treat as parents. And I never want to abuse the treats and, like, not offer enough. But I just I thought I should just talk to you about it rather than sitting there and wondering and worrying all the time. And that opens up the space for a conversation. And it's to me. It's the place of being honest with what I have been doing, which is like, This is silly. I should just talk to you about it rather than wonder about it, you know, or if especially if I'm not going to just start making the offer to pay regularly, or I really don't feel like I can, she might say. You know, I really appreciate you talking about that. It's always been our treat, and we really look at it that way. But thank you for thinking of it. Or she might say, You know, it's really nice that you bring that up. I It did start to feel a little awkward, but I know we were doing the inviting, and so I didn't know how to handle it either. it might give her room to say something she wasn't sure about based on her own behavior and the way she presents it to you. And so you just you never know when you open things up and you just admit kind of what's been going on for you. What can come out from the other feather side of the conversation?
Speaker 2: No, I want. And I want to hold onto that thought about being prepared for what you hear.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you never know on all they not go so sweetly. Yes, and but it might
Speaker 2: be, I think, usually are. Anticipation of the bad is greater than the reality most people are trying to do is as well as they can. Um, the only thing I wouldn't necessarily say in that conversation, I would be very open about the realities of the finances, the logistics, the numbers, the one direction I would try not to go. In fact, I would limit myself. Before I went into that conversations, I wouldn't mention my sense that you're feeling a desire from her that you pay Mawr or take more of that responsibility. I'd leave that particular thought unspoken
Speaker 1: because that's that's an assumption that so you're not sure like you consensus it, but you don't know for Riel, and it's it's often best not to lean into that.
Speaker 2: But it's one of those since I would also listen to, because oftentimes our intuition, our sense about those things sometimes is coming from the other person. Sometimes it's coming from an internal place, and I wanted to honor that feeling of wanting to participate in the inviting in the structuring of this relationship by saying Think of the hosting duty is something that you can reciprocate without inviting to take them out for a meal,
Speaker 2: that it is okay to invite them to do things that fit within your budget. In fact, it's the responsible thing to do. It's probably what they would want you to dio Lizzie mentioned a picnic earlier or meeting at a park where the kids can swing and you can sit around and have iced teas or you cook them a meal at your home.
Speaker 1: And yet I like that idea, bringing something that is within your within your vain. But it's still in offering, you know, it's it's still taking care of someone in a way that
Speaker 2: a host would, and you take responsibility for initiating for getting the kids and the in laws together. You, um, take some of that responsibility for just organizing it, and that's part of the I don't call the burden of the host, but the role of the host and sharing that role
Speaker 2: even if you're not
Speaker 2: 50 50 sharing all of the expenses in the relationship is away toe. Take some responsibility and maybe address that little voice that you're hearing that that expressing a desire for you to do more.
Speaker 1: I want to give Rachel some advice, though, for if the response is. Yeah, I'm glad you brought this up because I've been meaning to talk to you. I I have been disappointed that you guys never offer to pay, and that's where Rachel you can then go into I'm so sorry. Clearly, I was unsure of what what was expected, and let's instead, then and then you can move into some of the suggestions that Dan has said you can bring up whether budget is a thing. I mean, whether you talk about that with your in laws is is up to you clearly
Speaker 1: but immediately getting from the place of this experience isn't going well for us. Let's find one that will work for us, them where both parties start to feel the reciprocity.
Speaker 2: I like that, Rachel,
Speaker 1: thank you for the
Speaker 2: follow up on last week's question and for giving us a chance toe dive a little deeper into a more specific example,
Speaker 2: Learning to take care of family obligations in early years is easy. After all, it's only a matter of getting into a pattern of good living habits once they become habits you needn't worry about.
Speaker 2: Take care of your obligations. No. And when
Speaker 1: you meet the responsibilities of adult life, you'll find that they will take care of you.
Speaker 1: Our next question is titled Pre Meal Meat Cutting.
Speaker 1: Good Evening. I'm trying to
Speaker 2: find the origins to an etiquette rule. Why is it considered rude to cut up all of one's meet at the start of a meal? My husband and I were discussing this today at lunch. Thank you, the Lane
Speaker 1: O V. Lane. This is a classic, all kinds of different reasons, and I think some of them are more about the food and others are more about I think impressions, and so you could decide which might be more important. But the reason for the food is that you don't want Teoh, if especially if it's like a piece of meat. You don't want it to dry out, and I think that that's and and cool off. And so it is. It's one chunk. It stays warmer together. And I would imagine that's actually true for something like a lasagna, even if it doesn't have meat in it or something like that. But yeah, often it's just about that The food tastes better if you don't.
Speaker 1: I think that's
Speaker 2: the practical reason Number one.
Speaker 1: I'll let you give the reason people can debate.
Speaker 1: Well. Reason Number two
Speaker 2: kind of false from reason. Number one that if there's something sort of sophisticated about enjoying your food by keeping the meat hot and maybe even just cooking just perfectly as it reposes on your plate,
Speaker 2: there's something a little childish about preparing that whole plate of food at the start of the meal and then just using one utensil to get through it.
Speaker 2: And it's it's just a silly impression. But because so many people have witnessed or had the experience of preparing a plate of food for a child where you cut it all up in tow, bites that they can manage, and then you let them go at it with just a fork or a spoon.
Speaker 2: It can create a similar type of impression if an adult approaches their dinner plate the same way,
Speaker 1: and that is pretty much it. That's like a particular topic
Speaker 1: audience. We would love to hear your thoughts. Do you think it looks childish? Do you think that it's that it's not, um, refined dining if you're cutting up your entire plate of food before eating it? And what do you feel about the exception of a salad, which sometimes gets a couple of big cross hatches, especially if it's if it's big leaf lettuce? And then you do put your your knife down and eat the rest of it? There are some interesting questions about the cutting
Speaker 2: of food. Oh, Lizzie Post, you're just trying to get This is complicated, as you possibly can by taking us to another course.
Speaker 1: This question, specifically said, is
Speaker 1: cut up one's meet at
Speaker 2: the start of
Speaker 1: All right. All right. Well, v lane, we will leave it with meat
Speaker 2: for today, but thank you so much for giving us a chance to explore the question
Speaker 2: whenever you're
Speaker 1: buying meat, it's important that you know about two things in particular about the meat quality, and then it's important that you know about the cut of meat that you
Speaker 2: buy. Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers. Toe awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 8028 by a kind that's 80 to 8585463 you can. Also just on Social Media on Twitter were at Emily Post Inst on Instagram. We're at Emily Post Institute and on Facebook were awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the show.
Speaker 1: If you love awesome etiquette, consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting us at patri on dot com slash awesome etiquette. You'll get an adds free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content, including our entire archive. Plus, you'll feel great knowing that you helped keep awesome etiquette on the air. And to those of you who are already sustaining members, thank you so much for your support.
Speaker 1: It's
Speaker 2: time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer and the topics we cover. And today we're going to be reading some of your three word responses. Thank you so much for sending these in.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad people wrote in with ease. Liz writes This was so hard. I will try to send it now before I overthink it. Number one. Humorous. Number two, observant and number three Critical number two Being observant. I really like number one. Being humorous. I'm trying to work on. I'm eager to see here what you have in store for us. Next. Dan. Liz.
Speaker 2: Liz, thank you for sharing When I see that your third word is critical and you start your feedback with this was so hard.
Speaker 1: I believe applying
Speaker 2: that critical lie to yourself is
Speaker 1: way. Have next. Next we
Speaker 2: hear from Shauna. Hi, Lizzie and Dan, This is Shauna calling from Reno. And Shauna left us a voicemail. I just listened Episode 306 with the little postscript with a challenge to describe yourself in three words. I chewed on it a lot on the drive home. I ended up coming up with fun. Classy weirdo. Thanks for the challenge. Daycare.
Speaker 2: First weirdo I've ever heard.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And also, I gotta say, those three make me really want to hang out with Sean. Uh,
Speaker 1: our next one came from Debbie. Hi, Dan and Lizzie Love your Post Group this week. My three words Honest, determined and kind My life maids. Three words Mechanical, logical, earthy, best Debbie. Oh, for six good words,
Speaker 2: Mechanical and earthy.
Speaker 1: I like it. I like it. I also keep being like, Yes, I wanna hang out with our audience. When? When we're able to one day, we need to do some kind of a big live event I feel like all are awesome. People need to meet. It
Speaker 2: would be fun.
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you all for sending us your thoughts and updates. And please keep them coming. You can send your feedback or update toe awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com Or leave us a voicemail or text. 802858 kind. That's 8028585463
Speaker 2: It's time for our post script segment, where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette. And this week we're going to take a sneak peek into the work Lizzie Post is doing. Writing the 20th edition of Emily Post Etiquette.
Speaker 2: This is certainly no
Speaker 1: final draft, but we wanted to give
Speaker 2: you a peek into it.
Speaker 1: It's true. This definitely isn't a final draft, so I wouldn't I wouldn't hold me to any of this staying in the book that you all end up with two year, year and a half From now. I think it is.
Speaker 2: Your clad contract is all
Speaker 1: okay. No
Speaker 1: editing Israel. Caitlin, where are you? Caitlin is our editor over it. 10 Speed Press, and she's also a fan of the awesome etiquette podcast. I'll say she listens regularly,
Speaker 1: but Dan, I was really glad about three episodes back when you encouraged a sharing of a section of the book. It made me feel really proud because it made me think that whatever it was you had read at that point, you felt confident enough in you wanna share with our audience. And so that gave me a bit of confidence. But I did I did ask for you to choose them. I could not choose among my babies what to present. And so tell us what? What was the first section that
Speaker 2: you chose? And why did you choose this one? Well, first I can understand why that would be difficult.
Speaker 2: It is hard when you're writing something to separate from it at all. And I will tell you that I also had a hard time choosing, um, the chapter that I was working in tow, let everyone know was greetings and introductions. And part of me was really tempted by introduction because it's very etiquette e. But
Speaker 2: the nature of the content doesn't lend itself to being as good a read as the greeting section. So I found my eye going there. I picked the section I'm gonna let you read the title to it, but I chose it because I thought our podcast audience might see a little bit of themselves in it.
Speaker 1: Okay, so this is the who greets whom section who greets whom. We received this question frequently on the awesome etiquette podcast asking what is the obligation of co workers and roommates or family to greet each other upon first seeing one another. Does the person in the room greet the person coming into the room, or does the person entering the space greet the person already in it?
Speaker 1: What if you don't have much intention of interaction and are indeed just passing through? And do you have to greet people every time you cross paths with them?
Speaker 1: The things we fret over
Speaker 1: the person entering the room generally has the advantage of knowing that there will be a change in the room once they enter and is often thought to be responsible for announcing his rival. Good morning, one might say breezily, to co workers as they walk into the office kitchen for a morning coffee. That being said, many feel that the person in the room is in some ways considered the host of the space, having been there first. And upon seeing the person who is entering, they should acknowledge this person's entrance and welcome them to the space morning, they say as their roommate enters the living room.
Speaker 1: We have a hopeful here. Blank percent of Emily Post survey respondents say that they believe blank. We're really hoping at some point to be getting the research done in the book and actually collect numbers and and blanks to fill these blanks with. And that's actually
Speaker 2: one of the reasons I chose this section.
Speaker 1: What I was gonna say, Dan, how do I read this to the audience? Please note to self read all
Speaker 2: notes and what I liked about is it showed how the interest in the topic is driving the research.
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, yeah, and it does. It does.
Speaker 1: So we've just said morning, they say, as the roommates entered the living room. Then there is the reality. Sometimes the person in the room is busy and does not notice the person entering. Goodness knows this has caused many a frightful jump or disappointed feeling of being ignored. Other times the person coming in may not be alone. And in not stopping to greet the person already in the room or worse yet, not even noticed that someone else is present may make the person already occupying the room feel invisible or imposed upon
Speaker 1: rather than spend much time worrying about who should do what wink, Let us suggest that the good thing to do, no matter who you are in the situation is to take action and greet someone when you notice them. For those of us walking around as we enter new spaces, it should be our goal to observe, even if briefly the spaces we walk through or enter and acknowledge those we see. For those already hunkered down in a space, it's important to be aware of your surroundings and look up from time to time. Noticed those who enter it, even if just to catch their eye and give a friendly nod Well done and good use of
Speaker 2: the proper tens of whom.
Speaker 1: Oh, gosh, I hope so. I know there was. There were other mistakes within that. I was as I was reading it, I was even finding little things. I'm like, Oh, we could tweak this so we could edit this.
Speaker 2: Well, I I won't tell people to send in their edits right now, but thank you for sharing an early version. Um, I think we had one more
Speaker 1: section.
Speaker 1: We did. What was the other section that you chose? Appropriately? Enthusiasm? Uh, okay, this one's kind of fun. I like this section cause it gets
Speaker 1: it gets a little bit at some of Emily Post's own thoughts on, uh, on greetings. Okay, this section begins enthusiasm.
Speaker 1: Our friendly, chirpy standard. Hello, That is formal to the high and certainly formal to the casual. Hey, your sub was bemoaned by Emily Post for its informality. Emily appreciated a good formal greeting. Unlike many today, she wasn't a fan of overly exaggerated greetings. She would likely cringe at some of our emphatic enthusiasm for greeting one another too much indeed. Forced hugs and loud exclamations were not her thing. Best we can tell. Emily found that exaggerated greetings would force the other person to respond in kind, lest it creates some kind of a dead thump as the enthusiasm hits the floor, Having been met with a tame or even flat high,
Speaker 1: Emily was also careful with language. When it came to greetings, she thought saying, I'm delighted when being introduced to someone would force the other person toe, have toe level up to your emotional status, it would impose upon them a declaration of emotion and potential need for it to be returned when no more than names have actually been exchanged and no more than names need be exchanged. Emily's thinking was, How can you be delighted when you've only just met. Once you've spoken for a moment or two before exiting the conversation, you might say it's been delightful to meet you because this may indeed be true in her technical way. Emily may have posed that if you state your delight at the start and then forget to stated at the end of a greeting, would that mean the introduction was a delight? But the conversation, not so much
Speaker 1: overthinking, has skipped no generation
Speaker 1: in today's American culture. We leave room for people to be delighted to be introduced to one another. For there are times when it indeed might be a delight to finally meet your son's boyfriend, whom he has spoken so proudly of for so long would indeed be a delight.
Speaker 1: But for every day, quick or in passing greetings to force enthusiasm beyond a friendly tone and expression is unnecessary. You do not have to be thrilled. All caps, exclamation points to have met Colleen in passing while out to lunch with your friend, especially if it is unlikely that you'll cross paths with Colleen again. In fact, you might make Coleen feel overwhelmed advice. Take it down a notch and you can still come across as friendly and welcoming. Now, Dan, the next section is actually a a chart.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's just
Speaker 2: pause for a minute here and acknowledge that you
Speaker 1: just
Speaker 2: said that there is a chart on enthusiasm.
Speaker 1: Unenthusiastic Greetings. There is a chart with because of levels. Yeah, it's like you've got a situation, and then you get the bare minimum you need to achieve for a greeting the appropriate type of greeting and then something that might might be might be a bit much. So give us a So we don't weekly. I was going to say, we can't read the whole chart, but should we do just one of them? Oh, absolutely. Okay, so So the situation is your stuffing a friend or acquaintance and passing and the bare minimum would be that you not to those you know, with a friendly expression. If you choose to speak a friendly or neutral hey or hi. And the person's name is fine here, you're not really stopping, but just a walking acknowledgement. I see you. You see me, we know each other. If we go to the appropriate greeting during this scenario of stopping a friend or acquaintance in passing. If you're actually stopping, do so out of the flow of pedestrian traffic. If you're taking this much time, it's appropriate to ask if the other person is doing well. And then a bit too much is grabbing the person's arm as you pass by and force hugging them while exclaiming How long it's been and peppering them with questions before even knowing if now is an okay time for them to stop and chat. That would be the range of enthusiastic greeting. And
Speaker 2: what what I'm liking is it's an application, kind of of the sample script,
Speaker 1: thinking very situational. It takes me there.
Speaker 1: Okay, good, good. I'm so glad to hear that. It's so funny, though. There are all these different moments that we have in passing with people, and
Speaker 1: it can range from a total stranger to a colleague that you know, works, you know in your office, but that you don't actually know to seeing a friend to seeing a family member and not being able to stop and talk to them. But as you start to kind of break apart all of those moments and the places where they could get awkward are the places where they could feel comfortable
Speaker 1: and you apply Emily's kind of kind of filter of don't you don't have to overdo it. It was really kind of fun jumping in and thinking about what what you might do in a given situation and what would feel like way too much. You know, it's like that person. You don't know that well, who's like waving their arm frantically and calling out to you from like more than 10 ft away. It's like that that often conf eel like a very strange and awkward greeting, given how well you know the person, you know what I mean. Whereas just like, oh, hey, from from that same 10 ft distance as you pats past each other can feel really normal. I also Dan just saw on one of those listed cols somewhere It was things that people who had moved to America that it took them a while to get used to, and one of the things was people saying, Hey, how's it going as they pass by or even just as they quickly see you and not really intending to hear the answer. So we do a lot of, you know, in passing. Hey, how's it going? But you're just You're You're moving, you're on the go. There is no no intent to say anything more than good. You two okay by you know, you don't even finish it sometimes with good bye.
Speaker 1: This is me deking out on introductions, guys. No, I know, and it's I could see
Speaker 2: you down in all of the details and I want to fly you back with a parting thought here totally was one of things that really struck me about this section was there was this undercurrent is underlying theme about authenticity and the way I sort of read what you're illustrating with examples of behavior is the idea that one you're regulating, a dosage of emotion, something like enthusiasm, that authenticity is really important, that it's true to the moment. And it's true to you, and there's a lot of structure you can put around it. But there's this this sort of magic quality that fills up whatever word choice you make with a lot of meaning and getting it right is is a question of dosage, and it's subtle, and I like the exploration of that I like. That is a theme, and I have been thinking about it by itself. And when I hear you talking about it as you read it, I hear you talk about Emily's voice and from the previous section bringing in that Emily's voice and I.
Speaker 2: I think about those undercurrents, those things that have always been a part of this tradition. They I'm connecting those two ideas as we do this. Postscript.
Speaker 1: Well, Dan, I'm so relieved that you are enjoying it, that it's inspiring thought, working on it and really trying to bring some of Emily's voice and perspective back into it. But also present modern advice and advice that's really gonna make sense for the situations we find ourselves in. Today is both a really fun task, but it's also no small task, and I'm glad it's coming across well in this section, and it's
Speaker 2: good work has and thank you for sharing it with us.
Speaker 1: Thank you all. I look forward to presenting a full and finished book in 2022.
Speaker 1: We like to end our show on a high note. So we turned to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world, and that can come in so many forms. And I just want to put out a reminder that we need your etiquette salutes. We know a lot of folks aren't going out too much these days, but when you are keeping an eye out for that good etiquette and write to us about it. So today we have a note from love, DNA via Patriot
Speaker 1: Hi,
Speaker 2: Lizzie and Dan. I want
Speaker 1: to
Speaker 2: tell you how proud I am of my son. My son is in great five, and they were having a babe laid tournament at school. For those who don't know what obey blade is in simple terms, it's a fancy top that you wind up to. People throw their bay blades in the stadium and whoever is the last one standing winds. During the challenge, one of his friends forgot to bring his and my son offered to lend one of Hiss while his friend was playing with it. A piece of it broke off. His friend was devastated and was in tears. My son's response was to let him know it was no big deal.
Speaker 2: The thing was, I had no idea about all of this. I received a call from my son's teacher and she retold this story to me. She was impressed that he chose to share as well. This is positive reaction. When she asked him where he learned to be so compassionate, he said from his mom and dad,
Speaker 2: that just brought tears to my eyes. I have had my challenges with this son this past year and so to hear something this positive wasn't very amazing. We and every parent try to instill values in their Children, and we don't always see it. But you never know how much they're taking in an absorbing. He doesn't always show this much compassion to his siblings, but I know he has it in him. And I love that he is showing it to the world. My etiquette salute goes to my son, but he always stayed this positive. Thank you for reading. And I'm liking the new Patri on site.
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you so much. That's so sweet. I'm like tearing. I am to
Speaker 1: know
Speaker 1: that it's always the ones where people
Speaker 2: are really proud of Dusty in here. Get this, man. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Loveman. Thank you so much for this salute and thank you for listening. Thank you to everyone who sent us some thing and thank you to everyone, especially who supports us on Patri on it is so important
Speaker 2: to this show. Thank you. Please connect with us and share the show with friends, family and co workers. However, you like to share your podcasts,
Speaker 1: you can send us questions, feedback and salutes by email. Toe awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com.
Speaker 2: You can leave us a message or text at 802858 kinds. That's 80 to 8585463
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Speaker 2: consider becoming a sustaining member. You can find out more about this by visiting patri on dot com slash awesome etiquette.
Speaker 1: You can also subscribe to the ads version of our show on Spotify or your favorite podcast app, and please
Speaker 2: consider leaving us a review. Our show is edited by Chris Albertine in a system produced by Bridget Dowd. Thanks