Episode 311 - Traditions and Transitions
In this episode of Awesome Etiquette
Where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. In this episode we take your questions on: car magnets for a cause, bicycle etiquette, sending selfies to friends, serial eaters (not cereal eaters). For Awesome Etiquette sustaining members our question is about opting out of having your child in the wedding party. Plus your most excellent feedback, etiquette salute and post script segment on traditions and transitions.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's just that you don't know how to you social
Speaker 1: watch. How busy host and damn posts actors hosting.
Speaker 1: They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person. Really. Friendliness.
Speaker 1: Hello
Speaker 2: and welcome toe Awesome etiquette,
Speaker 1: where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty.
Speaker 2: On today's show, we take your questions on car magnets for a cause. Bicycle etiquette sending selfies to friends and cereal eaters, not cereal
Speaker 1: eaters
Speaker 1: for awesome etiquette. Sustaining members are. Question is about opting out of having your child in the wedding party,
Speaker 2: plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a postscript segment on traditions and transitions.
Speaker 1: All that coming up.
Speaker 1: Awesome
Speaker 2: etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute. I'm Lizzie Post Post sending because elbow
Speaker 2: How are things going on in your world on the mountain top this week? You know, it's kind of nice.
Speaker 1: It's, Ah, breezy, sunny afternoon. Not too hot, not too cold. Feels like it's been a pretty productive couple of days.
Speaker 1: My belly's full. I'm well slept.
Speaker 2: E was going to say Don't you all just I love hearing him. Say it, cause don't you all just want to go be there?
Speaker 2: Oh, no, that sounds really nice. It's It's it's been it's been one of those, like, like, productive good weeks. I feel like a
Speaker 2: tough week, but a good week, you know?
Speaker 1: Yeah. So tell me just a little bit. What have you been up to?
Speaker 2: Things have been good in my world. I've been doing some crazy color painting and getting a ton of work done. We're just starting to be able to lunch. Dare I say it? Dairy. Say it. The pilot program for wedding etiquette for professionals online.
Speaker 2: So I like that would be called the soft launch.
Speaker 2: But those kinds of things are always things that make it feel like things are moving forward. And I know sometimes during this pandemic it can feel like you're just cycling through the exact same week, depending on what your weak looks like. But no, things have been good. I spent some time with my nephew and niece yesterday. Really Got some good time in with my niece. She's about almost six months old, and so that was really fun. And
Speaker 2: other than that, you know, just just life and living
Speaker 1: well. I wish I could say that I soft launched a new program this week.
Speaker 2: I didn't know a lot of
Speaker 1: work on our Children's etiquette trade. The trainer program. Cindy and I are so close to having that program transition to an online program where
Speaker 1: re filming our final videos. We just want to get it right. And it is.
Speaker 1: It is close. It is imminent. And someday I hope toe dance a little victory dance like
Speaker 2: you just
Speaker 1: did and say something like You just said and announced that we have soft launched the program
Speaker 2: very soon. Very soon, my friend. Very soon. Well, while I have been knee deep in the world of wedding etiquette questions, I would love to get to our show and jump into some awesome etiquette questions.
Speaker 1: Let's do it.
Speaker 2: Awesome Etiquette is here to answer your questions. You can email them toe awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. Leave a voicemail or text at 802858 k i n d. That's 8028585463 or reach us on social media on Twitter were at Emily Post inst on instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute and on Facebook were awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media posts. So we know you want your question
Speaker 1: on the show.
Speaker 1: Our first question this week is about a car magnet conundrum. Hi, Dan and Lizzie love the show.
Speaker 1: I have a question that I'm hoping you can help me with. I recently purchased a car magnet that shows my support for a cause. That's very important to me. It is not necessarily a partisan cause, but I'm assuming some would interpret it that way. I have a boss who I very much respect and appreciate. But when it comes to this kind of thing, we don't have a lot in common. I expect that he may be offended or at least irritated by the car magnet. My issue is that I work from his home, so my car is parked either in his driveway or on the street in front of his house when I am there.
Speaker 1: If this was an office space, I wouldn't think twice about it. But
Speaker 2: something about
Speaker 1: this being his private property as me wondering what the etiquette is Here it is a magnet, so it can be removed and reapplied easily. What
Speaker 2: are your
Speaker 1: thoughts? Thanks. Okay,
Speaker 2: okay. I have so many thoughts my head would be bouncing back and forth, right? I know
Speaker 1: what a great way to pose this question.
Speaker 2: Right? But it's true. I do have so many thoughts because on the one hand, I love the fact that you're thinking about someone else's home space as being a different type of ownership, representation, space, all of that, then an office space that you might share with them. And in this case, we're talking about parking spaces. But I think that it's so good of you to just be thinking and recognizing that different spaces hold. I think different levels of neutrality for us, an ownership and perspective and perception. And it's an interesting idea to take a minute and think, you know, if my car is out in front of my boss's house every day because that's where I work out of. Does that somehow make it look like my boss is the one supporting the cause is that I actually support and then it brings up the question of And how fair is it to assume that a car parked outside someone's house means that the bumper sticker on it or in this case, the magnet, you know, reflects the person inside the house? It's a really interesting question. I mean, that's where my brain is, Dan about
Speaker 2: my thoughts are
Speaker 1: very similar to yours. I really appreciate where K is coming from. I appreciate the way K is thinking about a lot of different angles to this, and
Speaker 1: because there are so many angles and there's a lot to balance and way, I tend to lean towards
Speaker 1: the idea that you trust yourself. You trust that little voice in your head that says, You know something about this situation makes me wonder, makes me curious, and I think that it might be something that my boss wouldn't appreciate. There's a possibility of that, and
Speaker 1: that's just a really good place to be operating from, because it lets you make good choices about that relationship. And
Speaker 1: if it was the kind of relationship that I really wanted to invest in or I felt comfortable in and I felt like there was a little bit of room.
Speaker 1: You could ask your boss how we felt about something like that. You could put it to him in a very similar way that you put it to us, that this is something that you could do or not do, and you were wondering about it. You were curious and you didn't want to do something that would bother or offend him.
Speaker 1: That opens up, I think, the widest range of possibilities for continuing to keep that magnet on your car to support that cause that you care about as fully as you would like.
Speaker 1: And also it gives you a chance to really secure your relationship with your boss at the same time. And that's important. That's a really important relationship to you.
Speaker 1: If you didn't feel comfortable having that conversation or you just didn't want to,
Speaker 1: I think that there's nothing wrong with taking that magnet off your car. If it really is something that's not a big deal, not really difficult to take off and reapply.
Speaker 1: Then I
Speaker 1: put it in the sort of same category in my mind that I do moderating your conversation in public places when you're talking about things that could be viewed as controversial. We do it all the time. It's not that you're giving up those values or ideals. It's not that your saying they're not important. You're just recognizing that
Speaker 1: we all have to moderate the waves. We participate and that those air subtle choices and those air decisions that we have to make for ourselves, but we make them in concert with other people.
Speaker 2: One of the things that I do find somewhat interesting about this question is that it's coming up because it's a magnet. If it was a bumper sticker that was permanently stuck on,
Speaker 2: it wouldn't even be something you might think to consider because you know that it's there and that's it. Or, you know, it might be the kind of thing where your brain would go to the place of. So do I back my car into the driveway. If I park in the driveway, you know what I mean? If it's on the back of the car. To me, it was really interesting that the magnet, which provides an easy solution for choosing whether to display this or not, is, is one of the things allowing for for the question to even kind of come up in certain ways. Not that you couldn't question it without it, but I did think that
Speaker 1: was interesting. No, I was paying attention to that also, and I'll tell just a hint of a personal story here.
Speaker 1: When I met Pooja, she had on her car a bumper sticker that I playfully teased her about as being the most hippie of all hippie bumper stickers you could possibly put on your car.
Speaker 1: And it's in purple with white letters, right in the middle of the rear bumper and it says, visualized world peace. And if you know Poochigian, know her well, this is something that that she does. She's someone who who was committed to sort of aligning herself and
Speaker 1: participating in thinking about people getting along. She wants this world to be a peaceful planet, and it comes from such a pure place for her
Speaker 1: that when I told her this, this statement was so well known that it had been
Speaker 1: pund that there is the Visualize World Pease bumper sticker
Speaker 2: like World W H ir led World. He's like P A. Yet
Speaker 2: it's just it's such a classic
Speaker 1: and at the same time I have taken that car to deliver seminars at big companies that are defense contractors, for example. And I really wondered about it and I said to myself, Is this gonna be awkward if I'm getting out of this car and I'm running in tow? People have organized me being here and I have done things like Park a car with the rear bumper facing somewhere where people aren't likely toe, see it and walk by it
Speaker 1: interesting. But it is the kind of thing where I also say to myself, It's not something that is an easy choice to make. It's not a moderation that I could do for my host, and I also just want to touch on the host guest and privacy at it. Get questions
Speaker 1: are accommodations I would make if it was easy to make them,
Speaker 1: but it not being easy to make the accommodation of removing it. I do the other thing. I try to minimize it in case it would offer offense or or cause a problem in a relationship.
Speaker 2: And I think it is really important when we're looking at this through the lens of etiquette to pay attention to those things and toe offer consideration where and when we can
Speaker 2: if for for a chance, this was something that was such a deeply held value that it would it would feel wrong to you. Teoh. Remove that magnet. I kept wanting to say Bumper sticker, but it's a magnet. Remove this magnet then it's a personal enough issue that I think you're probably willing to have conversations with people who might be offended by it. Or who might say, Hey, I was concerned about this or how it might make me look and it sounds to me like A is more in the place of I'm willing to do this if this is something that would make someone else comfortable, and it's an easy thing for me to dio, and I think that that's the a difference here. I could imagine some people saying, But wait a minute. I don't wanna have to hide or change who I am, and it's not a half to by any means. It is a choice. It's It's something that, in case particular
Speaker 2: situation they're considering just because there's an option there with that magnet.
Speaker 1: Okay, thank you so much for the question. There's certainly a lot to think about here, and I would be curious what our audience thinks about this question as well.
Speaker 1: 15.
Speaker 1: Any wind. So he's elected to be on the playground committee.
Speaker 1: And look, this dispute was settled barely. And so Jerry and Eddie are still good friends. Justice. They always
Speaker 2: work.
Speaker 2: Our next question is titled Bicycle Behavior, and I have to say, I think I have to read this one, too. Dan and I might not be able to answer it because I get a little too worked up. It begins. Hi, Lizzie and Dan. My partner and I both recently bought new bicycles and have been enjoying biking around our city. It's been a fun way to get out of the house. During Koven, we often bike after work on a paved path near our house that tends to have others walking or running on it. So we need to pass people fairly frequently
Speaker 2: as someone new to biking. I can't quite figure out the right way to do this. I try to approach the person in front of me slowly, give as much room to them as possible and say, Excuse me when approaching and thank you when I pass them sometimes, especially when walkers or runners are wearing headphones. I comptel. They didn't hear my approach and are surprised when I passed them. I've considered getting a bell for my bike, but originally thought that would be rude or even startle people. Now I wonder if a Bell is a safer option for both me and fellow people on the trail, even if it's a bit annoying. What is the best option here? Do you think bike bills a rude? I feel like No matter what the option I choose, there's a chance of bothering the people I'm passing on the trail. Thank you for your help. Anonymous. Who?
Speaker 1: Anonymous. Thank you so much for this question and Lizzie Post. You are not going to get away that easily just by saying I don't
Speaker 2: have
Speaker 2: trying so hard to keep quiet.
Speaker 1: The very first thing in my show notes our Lizzie question. Mark,
Speaker 2: what is the
Speaker 1: hierarchy question mark? Because I know I we have had offline discussions about this many, many times.
Speaker 2: I've brought my I brought my frustration with being passed on the bike path to the show. Many of times I've even brought it to certain voicemails at the parks and rec department.
Speaker 2: I
Speaker 1: many many dies.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and and I applaud people like your mother, Daniel Post Senning, who is a respectful writer of her bicycle Anonymous. I think it's awesome that you're thinking about all of this right off the bat, a couple things that are traditional, both safety and sort of I would say, bike path or wreck path etiquette is the idea of passing on the left. We know that there are times when people pass on the right and people even call out on your right. But it honestly confuses people, cause we're so used to at least here in North America that you pass on left. And so I would stick with on your left as you pull up behind someone. And bells are not rooted all you are right that both calling out or just if they can't hear you. Even if you do call out, you know that the noise that you make as you actually come near someone that you're passing or a bell any of those things have the potential to startle someone who has headphones in or who's running and can't hear you behind them, but that's really true of any of us. Another biker could startle you very easily, and so I think it's That's a little bit of the risk we take when we're in the space with one another. I would say Get a bell, call out on your left and keep saying those thank you's and keep giving people a much spaces you can those air the main considerations for for doing well on a bike path in this type of situation. Dan, I couldn't help myself and just ran with the whole thing.
Speaker 1: No, I I love your list. The only thing I would add to it is your willingness to moderate your speed when you're in those shared spaces is a big deal. You've got a A machine that is one of the most efficient machines ever invented by man. When you're riding a bicycle and you can go really fast and for the people that are walking or running,
Speaker 1: that difference and speeds a big deal, and it's a safety question as well as a courtesy and just your willingness to go a little slower when you're in those areas that have foot traffic that air a little busier, a little more crowded, is, is a big part of that. Courtesy is, well, I love the on your left. I think that's so useful. It's the courtesy that I witnessed being observed pretty respectfully when I used to use the Burlington bike path that Lizzie Post uses almost every day.
Speaker 1: We can't have this question and not bring it up because I think it's an important part of etiquette. Is what What are the reciprocal courtesies? What are
Speaker 1: if you're inhabiting that shared space? Well, as a biker, there are certain expectations. What are those same expectations that you should have as someone who's walking or running? And I figured I put that question to you, Lizzie Post a swell
Speaker 2: just before we transition to runners and walkers and their side of the etiquette. There is one thing I want to clue in on with slowing down that I think is really important because you touched upon it, Dan. And to me, slowing down is one of those things that I think a lot of us, especially if we're moving quickly on the bike path or the wreck path. Forget that it's an option to help us create space to help us pass safely. A lot of times you confined really congested areas and rather than trying to keep your speed and go right through, dropping back or slowing down until you can pass with a bit more room is a thoughtful thing to Dio when it comes to runners and walkers. I do think it's nice when you hear when you hear that bell or when you hear someone call out on your left, Teoh, raise an arm or t give some kind of a thumbs up or something to let someone know that you've heard thumb. I know a lot of runners right now due to social distancing are trying to when they hear that bell or they hear that on your left. Move over a little further for me on the Burlington bike path. That means I'm over like a little bit on the grass or on the dirt. But just to help give people that kind of space.
Speaker 2: Dan, what do you think about the headphone issue? Because for me, I run actually without headphones. I play my music just right off my phone and I try not to play it too, too loud. But for me, it's a safety issue. I like being able to hear those bikers behind me really easily. And when I have the headphones on its it's not like that for me. What do you think the etiquette is of that?
Speaker 2: I think that headphones
Speaker 1: could be
Speaker 1: They could be nice. It could be nice to go for a run or a walk and listen to your favorite podcast. I draw the line when it isolates you from the world around you, so keep the volume low enough. Choose headphones for those spaces that don't surround your ears. Don't cancel all external noise as nice is that can be. I love my noise canceling headphones
Speaker 1: love.
Speaker 1: There are times when you don't want to be shut off from the world around you times when it's just not safe. So
Speaker 1: I don't think weaken, address the etiquette or the courtesy for the bikers without also talking about how important it is for that reciprocal courtesy to be employed in order for that dance to go is well, as it possibly can
Speaker 2: anonymous. We really hope that this helps, and mostly I hope that you continue to enjoy discovering your city by bike. It is a wonderful way to travel. It's a lot of fun. Good for the environment. Good for you. Um and welcome to the biking community.
Speaker 1: Disputing over who should ride the tricycle certainly spoiled their play. It isn't any fun. Besides, it's dangerous. Someone is likely to be hurt.
Speaker 1: Just think all this time they could be having fun on the bike.
Speaker 1: Our next question is about a serious selfie situation. Dear Dan and Lizzie, I have an oh so millennial etiquette dilemma to share with you. I have a close friend who has so many wonderful qualities, but one less endearing quality is her interest in photos of herself. She posts Selfies and other photos of herself to her instagram multiple times per week. And since she knows I don't have an instagram, she sends them to me personally. Photographs of her close up selfies professional photos you name it
Speaker 1: pepper are otherwise pleasant text conversations. I find it off putting, and I don't want to egg her on by giving her the compliments she's clearly fishing for after falling for it. When it first started, I started to just ignore the photos and focus on our text conversation. Un discouraged, she continues to text me many selfies each week. Is it within my rights to ignore the photos? Is there something else I should do? And is this normal in 2020 Am I crazy for finding this strange, perplexed Sadie?
Speaker 2: Sadie? I understand. I have to say there is something. It's for all that we are used to selfies for all that were used to just total self promotion. You know, photos of ourselves all the time. Some entire instagram accounts are just selfies of the person. It's
Speaker 2: it's It's such a thing that
Speaker 2: I think if you're participating in that world, it isn't strange in any way, shape or form. It's a part of it. Here's your photo of me for the day, you know kind of a thing, but if you're not and that's not the relationship that you want to have with someone and you've done the thing of trying to just now, like not participate in the part of the friendship that you don't want to participate in, which is the daily Selby's, and that's not changing it. I think it might be worth talking about it with her or just
Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, how do you tell someone? I'm just not interested in seeing pictures of you every day. I'm having a hard time with the with the sample script here that we
Speaker 1: would get Teoh. Me too. And I was, um,
Speaker 1: I was curious to hear you say, You know, this might be worth a conversation cause I was thinking that same thought myself and then ran into the same hurdle of,
Speaker 2: like, what would you say
Speaker 2: it?
Speaker 1: It would be awkward, I think, and there are ways to handle awkward conversation so we could approach it like that. But
Speaker 1: I think my instinct is that I would treat ITM or like a bad outfit that somebody's wearing where
Speaker 2: that's a little distracting. But, you know, you're probably not going
Speaker 1: to tell someone. They don't look greater. They're making bad choices about their clothing or attire. And
Speaker 1: this is a question to me, that's sort of like that. It's about their presentation. It's about how they're seen or viewed, and it doesn't fall. So as you point out outside the norms for a lot of people, they it's like a seasonal fashion choice. That's a bad one.
Speaker 1: This is the analogy I'm drawing in my mind.
Speaker 1: And
Speaker 1: I also asked myself, What is the cost to me or to our listener? To Sadie at this point, and to me, it's not hard to ignore something right if there's a larger relationship there, if that's a relatively small part of it,
Speaker 1: the cost to me of just saying, Oh, that's what she does and I can look the other way and not be judgmental about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah,
Speaker 1: that would be the route that I'd be more likely It if I can't suspend that judgment then I might approach that awkward conversation is something that's important to have for the sake of the friendship.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and
Speaker 2: again I draw back to that space in my head of, you know,
Speaker 2: people have different interests, and this is clearly one of her. She you know, and it combines photography and the self and
Speaker 2: and I think that just for a lot of a lot of people that it's not such an uncommon space to be playing in on a regular basis, especially based on the number of APS you can send for, you know, send photos within that sort of thing.
Speaker 2: I'm in dance camp Teoh. I think that for me, this is a low stakes thing, Teoh ignore within a friendship. And if it became, ah high enough stakes thing that I was that bothered by it, I might say something. But with the ability to just focus on the pleasant conversation you do have, and with her seemingly
Speaker 2: not upset by the fact that you don't comment on the photos that she sends to you, then I think you really can feel perfectly within your rights to ignore those those photos.
Speaker 2: The only
Speaker 1: other thing that I would say sort of in response to this question is Please take note. Listeners take note. Awesome etiquette audience on how sending Selfies can be perceived, that it is very common. And, like Lizzie was saying at the start of this question, When you're operating in that space, the normalcy of that,
Speaker 1: I think, becomes habitual ized and not everybody is going to respond the same way. So in many ways I think this question is a really good reminder of that for all of us.
Speaker 2: Sadie, we hope that this answer leaves you a little less perplexed.
Speaker 1: For instance, consider the portrait photographer cameraman must be a practical psychologist who understands the personality of each individually photographed. People want to look their best back better than they look.
Speaker 2: Our next question is titled More Dinner Dilemmas. Dear Dannon Lizzie. A question posed in Episode 3 10 about a diner cutting all of their meat at once reminded me of a running debate. I had four years with my late father about one of my own dining quirks. Ever since I was a small child, it's been my habit to eat the food on my plate sequentially. In other words, I might eat all of my green beans than all of my potatoes. Dan, I can hear you smiling. Whole steak, etcetera.
Speaker 2: This drove this. Drove my dad crazy, he said. It was both childish and quote unquote bad manners. Although I will concede that some might consider it a bit childish. I've never heard of any etiquette guideline discouraging this practice. Is this some arcane etiquette rule that I should know about? If so, it might be a hard habit to break a this point. I'm 59 now, and I do it without even thinking Thank you, Sherry. Oh, man. Bikes and bikes and bites. This is a good is a good episode for us, cause was the most You
Speaker 1: know me so well, you could probably give my answer to this question and tell the stories that I'm going to tell
Speaker 2: concert question.
Speaker 2: Totally could, but I won't. The audience loves hearing your voice on my interrupt enough.
Speaker 1: Okay, so let's talk about cereal eaters. And I'm not talking about cereal eaters like your favorite raisin bran. I'm talking about serial as in sequence sequential eaters and,
Speaker 1: um, like Sherry. I was a cereal eater as a child, and I've retained a little bit of my cereal eating and for those that just find that very idea strange. Let me explain. It's all about saving the thing you like the most for last that you work your way around the plate. And as a as a kid, I would pick the thing that I dislike the most, and I would just eat that all up so that I've got my favorite things and your your last bite. What you have left is that thing that you like the most. So my grandfather would watch me do this, Poppy, You've heard Lizzie and I talk about William Pose, Emily's grandson, on the show. Many times he was
Speaker 2: actually heard this story on the show many times for us. He's
Speaker 1: the connection to Emily. He was the person that knew her. He was the living embodiment, along with our grandmother, of the tradition when we were growing up. And I will never forget a dining etiquette experience I had with him when he commented on my cereal eating. And it was something that was sort of discussed in the family between my parents and grand parents on, and I just I remember him engaging the conversation and you're talking to me about it, and the way he talked about it was that he loved in the same way I love saving the best for last loved creating the perfect bite. He loved getting that that piece of steak and just the right little bit of juice or sauce along with it. Or there's that little bit of mashed potato or whatever it was, but the ability to create a bite and mix and combine the flavors that were presented that were meant to be mixing combined was for him a big part of enjoying a meal, and it made a real impression on me. And
Speaker 1: as I hear this question I was thinking about was that his way of correcting me was that his way of
Speaker 1: not calling me out and saying That's childish? That's rude, but sort of sharing his what he I would imagine what I perceived. It was a very sophisticated approach to food and to eating that I sort of took with me and a little bit over time changed and changed. Until now, I advocate for the perfect bite in the same way.
Speaker 2: I don't have
Speaker 1: anything wrong with cereal eating. I don't think it's rude. I share that in the spirit that my grandfather shared it with me.
Speaker 1: It's not an etiquette rule, it's not.
Speaker 1: It doesn't. It's not perceived as childish. I don't think in the same ways Tell me, was he post if I'm wrong? That's a cutting up all your food is
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, no. I have never heard equated with with it being childish. Mostly the place I hear the childish part come in is when people eat that way because never a green beans shall touch a mashed potato. You know, it's like some people don't like. Mixing the flavors of their food is what they want, each side dish in each element to be its own thing. That's where I hear of it more and where someone else might consider that picky. And I think that that's an incorrect assessment of it. I think it's just how people choose to eat. But sure, I don't think you are in the category of bad manners.
Speaker 2: Not that I want to go against your late father, but I think that you were in good company. Clearly. My cousin Dan was a cereal eater as well, and sympathizes.
Speaker 2: The part of the story that I just love and cracks me up is that the family might have actually been talking about Dan cereal eating habits
Speaker 2: and that the grandfather might have suggested the perfect bite as a way to break him of it. And it actually did over the long run. But to me, it's it's just funny Teoh here that are etiquette family was talking about something like that doesn't really have an etiquette rule behind it. From what we know. Sherry, thank you for
Speaker 1: giving us a chance to reminisce a little bit and think about not just food and food manners but the qualities of eating and how we share that experience with others.
Speaker 1: Now, why does Bill have a stomach ache? He didn't eat anything bad today, did he? Well, perhaps it wasn't what he ate, but the way he ate it.
Speaker 1: Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers. Toe Awesome etiquette of Emily post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 80 to 8585463 You can also reach us on Social Media on Twitter were at Emily Post inst on instagram. We're at Emily Post Institute and on Facebook were awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the show.
Speaker 2: If you love awesome etiquette, please consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting us at patri on dot com slash awesome etiquette. You'll get in ads, free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content. Plus, you'll feel great knowing that you helped keep awesome etiquette on the air. And to those of you who are already sustaining members, thank you so much for your support.
Speaker 1: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer and the topics we cover. First we'll hear from Edward, who wrote in Via Patri on Hi, I'm so elated that will be able to listen to all of this amazing podcast and transcripts. Oh, my goodness. That'll be amazing. Toe have available for people who are hearing impaired. I'm a lip reader, but that never stopped me from enjoying your words of sage advice. Lizzie and Dan. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for all that you do.
Speaker 2: That is such a nice piece of feedback. Thank you, Bridget, for putting that in the show. That's awesome. Hi, Lizzie and Dan. Wonderful podcast. You both amaze me with your wisdom, common sense and sense of humor. A great combination. So thank you.
Speaker 2: After listening to Episode 3 10 and the Young Mothers Dilemma with family dinner invitation from her parents in law. A thought occurred to me regarding episode 309 and the senior person who paid for all the weekly office lunches and coffees. Might the junior person presume that thes are work related lunches and meetings? And the senior person is able to submit the expenses to the company for reimbursement or because they occur during the work week, the senior person would pick up the tab. Madeline,
Speaker 1: Madeleine, Thanks for the feedback. I love that you're sort of cross referencing and indexing answers between shows in your mind, and it's very much what Lizzie boasts and I are doing all the time. This answer informs that answer. We build on this answer with something we omitted but really wanted to include when we answered that one.
Speaker 1: I remember that question from Episode 309 that you're talking about and my impression reading that question wasn't that either of the parties involved were senior to the other. I was thinking of it very much as a colleague's question, and at the same time I would affirm sort of your thought that definitely seniority would play into the host of etiquette considerations that would be at play, along with who's hosting whose get who's the guest
Speaker 1: who's able to pay. Is it possible that the whole expense could be a work expense that one person could write off for. Deduct that another person couldn't
Speaker 1: would definitely be a consideration about who pays him part of the discussion that you would have,
Speaker 1: although in that particular question, I don't think it was in play, although you could certainly get the sense that that was the case based on the way it was all proceeding.
Speaker 2: Madeleine, you can see how easy it is to start getting more and more thoughts occurring to you as you explore the questions. Thank you so much for writing in with the feedback
Speaker 2: and thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please, please, please keep them coming. You can send your feedback or update toe awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com or leave us a voicemail or text message at 80 to 858 k i N d. That's 80 to 8585463
Speaker 2: It's time for a postscript segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette, and this week we're going to talk about traditions and transitions. Dan, what are you thinking of for this topic? I like it traditions and transitions.
Speaker 1: So this is me taking a conversation that I first brought up with you just because it was something that had occurred to me after I did an interview about condolence note and sympathy card etiquette.
Speaker 1: And in the course of that interview I found myself talking about traditions that are lasting traditions that
Speaker 1: tend to get renewed generation after generation and why that is why some manners changing, evolve and fall out of style and other manners. Stick And I found myself saying that I thought it really had to do with
Speaker 1: the the function or the utility of those manners to the relationships that they serve
Speaker 1: and that if you really think about the functionality of a courtesy or a netiquette or a manner,
Speaker 1: the values, the core principles that are expressing or made real by those actions that
Speaker 1: that that's the nugget that carries through time and
Speaker 1: the other
Speaker 1: sort of etiquette concept that came up in this particular interview was the idea of transitional moments in life times when people turned to etiquette for answers. And
Speaker 1: in the course of this interview, we're really focusing on difficult times, hard times when someone's past when someone's died, when someone's grieving. And
Speaker 1: I also wanted toe point out that there are other big transitional moments in life, that it's remarkable how consistent at those times people look to tradition for answers or for some thread to pull on or follow in terms of figuring out what to do or how to behave
Speaker 1: when someone's born. When someone has a coming of age, baby, it's a graduation bat mitzvah,
Speaker 1: just ah moment when they enter a profession or complete some kind of education. The
Speaker 1: time when someone gets married makes a commitment in life toe someone else that
Speaker 1: are, are moments when life shifts, when
Speaker 1: people of high stakes encounters with lots of different people, emotions are running high,
Speaker 2: and they're things that most of us or all of us, depending on which they are, will experience at some point in life. That's one of the other kind of commonalities, you know, it's like like you said, high emotions Ah, life change, but also likely things that we are going to experience or that people around us will be experiencing in life.
Speaker 1: There are moments that air, as you say, part of life that's likely to experience something like that at some point, and it's also almost a guarantee that every other human or a large percentage of the other humans have experienced something like this or gone through something like this. And there's something incredibly supportive and connecting about that reality. But I was just coming out of this interview. I was thinking about these two words. Tradition and transition, and because we like a liberation on this show,
Speaker 1: I have them paired in my mind, and I was sort of thinking about the timeline of a life. And if you were to sort of highlight certain moments in a life that were transitional moments, and then I was thinking about another timeline that was served through the course of history and the etiquette threads that I would draw through history and how they touched those various points in a human life. It all started to feel like threads coming together, and it was a series of connections that were happening in my own mind, a little abstract. But I wanted to introduce him in a post script, and I want to share with my cousin Lizzie boast and with all of our audience
Speaker 2: and I think it is a really good topic for us because Dan and I often are so focused on talking about etiquette now, or about how etiquette has changed, that we don't always focus as much on the traditions and why they hold. And they do hold comfort for us in a lot of ways. And you've heard us talk about that on this show that there is a comfort in tradition
Speaker 2: that a particular part of holiday etiquette around most families that we suggest, is that if you're going to change a tradition, check in with people first, that you don't just do it on a women, it's because thes things means something to us. I think one of the places where we get hesitant today to engage in tradition is we don't always know whether it's going to be welcomed from us, and I can see when you know the particular interview that you did was on grieving and condolences, and I know that a lot of people feel like, oh, they probably don't want to hear for me. They're so busy with people who love them or were closer to them, and we often dismiss our own, I think, chance to participate in traditions that are also healing and a part of our world because they mattered to us on Grieving is a really interesting one. It's one of those subjects where we often shy away from it in so many ways until it's facing us and it's something we have to do or someone very close to us is going through something regarding it, and it's really to me. It's a fascinating subject because it's so much more community driven, an interactive driven. I think that people give it credit for often we think of grieving as a time to give people so much privacy, and it is. But it's also and it's also a time to give people a lot of leniency. But it's also a time of expressing and actually connecting over that expression in the ways that you can, and that is a part of the transition. So when you're thinking of, should I reach out? Should I pay attention to these customs and these traditions that happen at various life points? Whether it's you weren't invited to someone's wedding, but you saw that they got married on Facebook, so he decided to send a card. I think it's important for us to gain some confidence in participating in traditions that happen around transitions.
Speaker 2: Thank you
Speaker 1: for for engaging the conversation with me. I'm learning as I'm listening to you, which is exactly what is what I was hoping would happen. Sort of bringing up a really open ended topic like this and the two thoughts that are emerging just as a here. You are
Speaker 1: one about the particular challenges of a time that's hard and that the the confidence that you can gain what you can learn from leaning on those traditions that have been passed on because they worked and they worked again and again and again
Speaker 1: is that it can be comforting in those moments. And that may be
Speaker 1: it can feel awkward, maybe because it's not familiar. It potentially not as familiar that you're in some ways buying into something that isn't necessarily coming from you, but it's been passed down
Speaker 1: and figure out how to do that authentically. How to bring yourself to that is is part of learning how to participate well, how to find ease in those structures, but that those air moments where you might lean on those structures just a little more, and I'm the other sort of big category that's that's emerged for me. Listening to you talk is separating in my own line that etiquette around those big transition moments and events and the etiquette that we also very appropriately spend a lot of time on on this show, which is the every day the pedestrian coated Ian,
Speaker 1: the interactions that happened between people that aren't high stakes, transition moment interactions. But there is a whole set of courtesy and social expectations. But in many ways, that type of etiquette and courtesy functions in a slightly different way than the traditional etiquette around big transitional moments and events, and that might that might be a useful category just for me. Moving forward is I think about how to separate out the way I talk about etiquette, and
Speaker 1: I'm learning right here in real time. A zai doctor, You on this mike.
Speaker 2: Oh, because I I like it when you you get kind of your heady version of yourself coming.
Speaker 2: Take your time with this because deep, deep thoughts, deep thoughts with Dan sending damn foes setting. But no, I do. I appreciate the chance to kind of celebrate the idea of tradition, especially around transitions. And I will. I will end our discussion on it by just
Speaker 2: also championing for those traditions that have happened around happy times two, and to give yourself the confidence to participate in those as well because it really does feel good. But traditions are a really beautiful part of our world. They're beautiful part of being human. I think I think there's something that make us humans really, really interesting, and not all traditions feel greater ones that we want to carry on for forever, but for the ones that do last.
Speaker 2: As Dan said, they last for a reason, and we hope that maybe maybe this week you will be inspired to participate in some traditions that that might be available in.
Speaker 2: We like to
Speaker 1: end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world, and that can come in so many forms. Today we have a note from Pam, Steve and Bruce.
Speaker 2: Hi Lizzie and Dan. This past week our mother turned 85 we wanted to formally recognize her lifelong effort to bring proper behavior, manners and etiquette to her family, friends and everyone around her. Our mom, Elaine Sharonov, has taught by example, including the importance of understanding table etiquette, writing prompt thank you notes and never ordering French onion soup during a job interview. One.
Speaker 2: She diligently coached us on which fork to use, be it fish or salad, and if it sits on her table, you can be sure it will be sterling and perfectly polished. She entertains frequently and whether the occasion is a relaxed lunch for four or Thanksgiving dinner for 24 her guests always find a beautiful and welcoming table and imaginative menu and a mix of old and new friends who ensure stimulating conversation and a fun time. If ever there were an ambassador for the principles of the Emily Post Institute, the importance of being considerate, respectful and honest it's our mother.
Speaker 2: The world needs more, Elaine Sharon doffs. We hope she is an inspiration to all your listeners, Pam.
Speaker 2: Oh, that is so
Speaker 1: I would second that toe. Pam, Steve and Bruce. Thank you for a very special etiquette salute and thank you to Elaine for bringing those three Children into this world
Speaker 1: and thank you for listening on thank you to everyone who sent us something and thank you to everyone who supports us on Bay Tree on.
Speaker 2: Please, please, please connect with us and share this show with friends, family and co workers. And, of course, we would love it. If
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Speaker 2: If you love the show, please consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting patri on dot com slash awesome etiquette. You can also subscribe to the ads version of our show on Spotify or your favorite podcast app and sees consider leaving us a review.
Speaker 2: Our show is edited by Chris Albertine and assistant produced
Speaker 1: by Bridget Down. Thanks for Bridget