Episode 312 - Hats at the Table

00:00:06

Speaker 1: Maybe it's just that you don't know how you social

00:00:13

Speaker 1: watch, how busy host and damn posts active hosting.

00:00:18

Speaker 1: They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person. Really Friendliness.

00:00:25

Speaker 1: Hello

00:00:26

Speaker 1: and welcome toe awesome etiquette, where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. On today's show, we take your questions on wanting a day to recover after having a weekend guest whether or not to come for the wedding ceremony but not the reception, Thank you notes with a twist and wearing hats while dining out in the covert era for awesome etiquette sustaining members. Our question of the week is about hosting a digital wedding,

00:00:55

Speaker 1: plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a special postscript where Cindy returns to answer a few questions that Dan forgot to ask all that coming up.

00:01:10

Speaker 1: Awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute. I'm Lizzie Post, and I'm Dan Post sending because I feel like I am needing kind of like a like a recharge, like, almost like an etiquette injection. I'm like I'm like writing the 20th edition right? There's a lot of etiquette in that book. We're working on a website transfer, and so there's a lot of updating them going on. A lot of pictures, thinking, going on, there's, you know, just life happening. That's mildly complicated. Right now I need that injection of support that c R h that consideration, respect, honesty, framework that we that we live by and talk by on this show toe like encourage me and remind me and give me a place. So I'm asking you, give it to me because give me a CRH show today. Let's do it. Let's take it back.

00:02:04

Speaker 1: So C R. H for the uninitiated, consideration, respect and honesty. And what are those three words to us? Well, there foundational principles, and for us, that means there where it all begins. At the very start of this show, we often say where we approach modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. And when you and I first talked about hosting a podcast, one of our small conceits was that it would be fun toe have a larger conversation about etiquette with a bigger audience, the kind of conversation that we often have internally at the Emily Post Institute and the structure for that conversation for us for many, many, many years has been how to the behaviors that were talking about express core principles of consideration, respect and honesty. So it's foundational to what we do. It's where it all begins, and we've talked on this show about what those words mean, what they mean tow us. And I think they have residents for a lot of people. And I think it's a great place to get started whenever we are talking about etiquette. And I think it's a great place to go back to whenever we're looking to get that charge that you're talking about. Yeah, it's for me. It's both encouragement and a comfort zone because the framework of it is something I feel that is strong, that you can lean into in times where you don't feel is confident or you feel a little unsure. Or maybe it's a new experience, and yet at the same time it's a comfort because all three of those things are are things that

00:03:42

Speaker 1: I would want to have a part of my life that I would want to be using in my interactions with other people. You know what I mean? Absolutely.

00:03:51

Speaker 1: It's also really useful, I think, sometimes for interpreting behaviors that you save yourself. Why would we do this if we're talking about something that's traditional, or there's an expectation that feels like it's coming from somewhere else someone else. And if you ask yourself, how does this function? How does this serve them as something considerate, respectful, honest? Oftentimes it can help decipher intent as well. Andi, I love the idea of giving that good and tender or thinking of other people is being motivated from that place and trying to understand human interaction from that framework. Well, you had asked because if we would do sort of like an explicit rundown of CRH throughout our questions today, and I thought it was a great a great idea. So should we get to those questions and really hammer out some consideration? Respect, honesty? I'd love to do that. Let's get to it.

00:04:47

Speaker 1: Awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions. You can email them toe awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 80 to 8585 for 63 You can also reach us on social media on Twitter were at Emily Post Inst on instagram. We're at Emily Post Institute on Facebook Were awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the show.

00:05:19

Speaker 1: Our first question is titled Weekend Recuperating.

00:05:23

Speaker 1: My Husband and I Love Overnight or weekend company, but we both work and like to have Sunday to clean the house, do laundry and just generally rest and recoup before we go back to work on Monday. How do we relate to guests that we would love to have them visit for the weekend but want them to get up and be on their way Sunday morning? By mid morning, at least without coming across ungracious and rude, any advice would be appreciated. Thanks, Anonymous. Thank you for the question. And just because we're do it question one and coming right out of that intro I've got Ah, start off with a little CRH framework here. And

00:06:04

Speaker 1: as we apply that the first thought is consideration and consideration is really when we're talking about an etiquette problem about just who's involved, who are the players? You gotta ask yourself, who am I being considerate of? And sometimes that takes bringing your awareness into the moment. In this case, it's pretty well mapped out. We have, ah, host guest scenario. So we've got the host for the weekend and we've got the folks that are coming for the visit, maybe tangentially the people that are impacted at work on Monday as faras respect. I'm seeing respect at play here. Everybody is being acknowledged. There are not, um, sort of hidden parties who are being impacted in some way. And I think everybody's value in this situation has acknowledged, even in the framing of the questions were already thinking ahead about thes guests and how we treat them well from the hosts perspective

00:07:00

Speaker 1: and then the final thought is the honesty thought and

00:07:03

Speaker 1: to me that is also very explicit in this question that the honest scenario is that we want to put a limit on this visit. We want toe be really sure that we can be good host by setting up good boundaries and for us those boundaries air really clear their defined by our work life. So that's the CRH framework for this question, now shall we? I've been a little bit more to the details. Let's do it. So obviously anonymous has stated their wishes, and they have stated that they don't want to be rude. So the goal is to find language that is going to honestly communicate what they need from their guests while still respecting and considering the fact that they have guests here and that that's, ah, hospitality role they want to maintain and maintain well, one of the things about honesty and all the situation is I also like how it plays with the actual situation itself and the person who's asking the question, how they feel about it, because I think it's important to be honest about that. You don't want to say to a guest, Oh, yes, please come for the weekend. It will be great. Don't worry about it. Will be nice and relaxing when really you feel like it'll be relaxing through Saturday night and early Sunday morning and then it's not gonna feel relaxing anymore. You know what I mean because you want to get on with your day and you're not sure how toe sort of move your guests along. I say that this is a communication thing that we deal with at the very start of the invite, and we let folks know we choose to lean on honesty, and we choose to be open about the fact that Sunday is typically a day where by mid morning we like to be getting all the cleaning done, so that by the afternoon we can relax before starting our week. I don't think there is anything that could be offensive to a guest who hears that before they commit to a weekend together. I could see it sounding offensive after we commit to a weekend together. So before you make the invite, I think that's where we think about consideration and respect. And and we were honest about what we need. But we do it before the other person commits. So, Helen, we would love to have you both come up for the weekend. Here's kind of how how we tend to structure things by Sunday morning. Would you guys want to come from Friday to sort of that early Sunday morning time? Would that be all right that lets people know you could also serve it up more eloquently than I just did.

00:09:32

Speaker 1: But I think that that lets people know what you're willing to work with and that you you do. I don't mind among friends giving a little bit of reason for why you're looking for for that early morning and afternoon to be clear and free and time that you can kind of get back and reset yourself. I think it's nice to communicate those things.

00:09:51

Speaker 1: Couldn't agree more. I love your emphasis on early, early early, the sooner the better and sort of the the inflection point being have people committed already.

00:10:01

Speaker 1: And I agree that that communication is so key. Giveth, um,

00:10:06

Speaker 1: the respect of being able to understand where you're coming from. So the amount of detail that's in the question it wasn't a long question gives me all the information I need. I like the idea of explaining and

00:10:20

Speaker 1: it not needing to be too much. There is a little question of dosage. You don't need to over emphasize just how burdensome it would be if people lingered too long. Yeah, that's where it would start to get inconsiderate three,

00:10:34

Speaker 1: and I was thinking about sort of a refinement. Step Aziz is often the case. How do you take a kind truth and make it even kinder or more benevolent?

00:10:43

Speaker 1: And I was thinking, Is there something you can sort of give them? Is a touch point on Sunday morning. Part of the question for me, there's an etiquette question. How early you're requiring someone toe leave. That's true is mid morning 9 30 cause you wake up at six or is mid morning? 11. Is there a service that people attend on Sunday? Isn't there? A lot of things could come into play and maybe something a landmark in the morning. And I was imagining inviting someone to a brunch if there was a brunch spot that you liked. Or if you there's something you liked Teoh make a special pancake breakfast on Sundays or something like that, that might be a way to cap the visit. Yeah, yeah, you know, you set up the he set up the brunch for, like, 9 a.m. and then just encourage them to pack their suitcases before they leave and put them in the car on the way and follow you this separate car. That's kind of what I was thinking,

00:11:36

Speaker 1: but it is like you can't quite do that, but that starts toe verge on, like feeling it feels awkward if it's like your leading and they're not agreeing to it the whole way. You know, it's like it's one thing if your guest pipes up with oh, well, why don't we just, you know, grab coffee? Or, you know, a pastry or brunch or something like that? Like on our way out of town in the morning, you know, and like and then you can agree to it. But you kind of want to. You want that to be something that they're they're willing to join you with, not something that feels like a schedule directive to kick them out.

00:12:12

Speaker 1: Okay, so I could see how that has the potential to come across badly.

00:12:17

Speaker 1: What would you uses? A sample script? How do you set up sort of landmark for someone that morning so that you can give them a firm boundary? Or how do you come back and make a reminder? If you don't feel like you've done that well or you just want to re emphasize it. What exactly do you say? I didn't really give us a good sample script on the first round.

00:12:37

Speaker 1: I think that the way you want to approach this again when the invitation is being issued, You set up your need for Sunday to be kind of like a hard stop

00:12:50

Speaker 1: and pick your time and be sort of clear about it. And like we said, you can explain. So it might sound something like Helen we would so love. To have you here is kind of how we've been structuring weekend visits, were able to start entertaining folks by and then let them know the afternoon or the evening on Friday And happy to have you stay Friday night and Saturday Sunday. We really like to get going on cleaning the house and sort of getting ready for the week and then having some nice couple time or family time Sunday evening. So if it's all right with you,

00:13:27

Speaker 1: were hoping to be saying our goodbyes, sort of around maybe like mid morning, 10 ish, 10. 30. Let us know with that works for you. And if it does, will be so excited to have you.

00:13:38

Speaker 1: I think that kind of gives you that specific time that Dan was saying, What's what's your mid morning? What's your, you know, kind of early to lean on. And then if you haven't heard any sort of plans for getting ready and packing up by late, I think Saturday evening I wouldn't lean back on the You need to be out by 10. But I would just simply say something like, Do you need us to help you get anything ready? In the morning? I figured I would have coffee and breakfast ready for folks at 8 30 like the I think those might be ways of inviting sort of yourself to help or Teoh to make the morning easy on folks as they're getting out, rather than saying something like and just a reminder, we're trying to be able to start cleaning the house by 10 which doesn't sound terrible when you say it, but feels kind of terrible or unnecessary in certain ways. When I think about saying it as advice to someone because I I'm buying it, I'll take that sample saying it. Okay, well, I am hoping that anonymous buys it, too. Hopefully you will have many weekends where you can enjoy visits with your friends and have that sweet Sunday afternoon time together.

00:14:52

Speaker 1: Because Bettie and Tom want to share a life in the work as well as the fun. They all changed places, and everyone is having fun.

00:15:04

Speaker 1: Our next question is about a covert mattress. Phony mess. Hello, Dan and Lizzie. Congratulations on the podcast. What a great show. Please tell us about wedding R S, V P etiquette guideline adjustments in the age of Cove in my family and I have been invited to a local wedding this autumn. And unfortunately, we live in a current hot spot for virus cases. Would it be appropriate to accept an invitation for the ceremony on Lee and not the reception? The ceremony will be held in a location that allows space for social distancing, but we have reservations about safely eating and drinking at the reception. If this is appropriate, how shall we word our response to the happy couple that we would love to witness their union but declined their reception invitation in a gracious manner.

00:15:47

Speaker 1: Thank you so much. And thanks for doing your part to making our world a kinder, more polite place. best. Katie.

00:15:54

Speaker 1: Katie. Thank you for writing in with this question. Dan. Let's just run this through consideration, respect and honesty right off the bat. Since that's kind of the theme of the show. I think in this case, the consideration the who's involved and how are they affected? Ah, we're looking at. Obviously, Katie and her family have been invited to this wedding and obviously the couple but the other guests at the wedding. And I also think that in this particular case, because Cove it is a question and they are in a hot spot. Katie also needs to be considering the other people that she and her family interact with. And I think that that's really important to not leave out, much like in the business situations. We consider the greater reputation of a company at large, I think, because we are still and it sounds like they're in a virus sort of hot spot that people are sticking a bit more to their pods, even in outdoor, socially distant spaces and things. So that's sort of our who's involved in how how are they affected

00:16:53

Speaker 1: in terms of a variety of solutions. I mean, you could certainly decline right. You could certainly attend or you could try to talk to the couple and find out if there's the possibility of doing kind of a hybrid like what you would like to attend the ceremony, but not the reception that might make you feel safe but still participate. And Dan, to me, that starts to be something that hits our respect level in a really nice way.

00:17:21

Speaker 1: I agree and just toe stick with our formula. How do you apply honesty here? How do you think about sort of your true purpose in a situation like this? Let's let's think about it from Katie's perspective,

00:17:33

Speaker 1: from Katie's perspective, I think the honest thing to do is Teoh and very similar to our last question, actually express both your desire and your worry. And so in this case, you know, it would be expressing to the couple that we really do want to support you. Onda Wedding would be a really nice thing to support someone in right now, but we are. I am concerned about safety and I'm wondering if it would be possible to attend the ceremony. But big goodbye and congratulations after that not attend the reception. And if you have, you know, if that's something that you would feel comfortable with, and if you don't I completely understand that would be the way to go. I lean into the couple directing their day and how how they would like it to happen, because I really like your emphasis on the both the worry and the excitement. That that's what's What's honest is that they're these two competing sort of emotions within you, the desire to participate and celebrate and the desire to be safe and to keep others safe. And I really like how the sort of extreme options really fall away quite quickly that the declining completely doesn't really

00:18:52

Speaker 1: let you be true to the party that really wants to participate in the ways that you feel like you could and just going and just seeing what happens

00:19:01

Speaker 1: doesn't really honor that worry either, so that that middle ground becomes where were operating and

00:19:08

Speaker 1: like you, I think in an era of covert people are used to being more flexible there, there used to these kinds of discussions. The wedding has probably already gone through some changes, as people have thought about how toe hosted well, And e, I don't think it's gonna be ah, left field request. So I think that just being honest about where you're coming from and what your concerns are is actually a really good approach. And, as you say, done with a little bit of kindness and awareness of what the hosts are going through goes a long way to delivering it well. And I think that you're refinement with this step might happen if the host responds with Well, let me tell you what we're doing at the reception to keep things safe. And if you hear things that make you feel more comfortable, you might adjust and say, you know, we would be able to participate in some of that. And if you hear things that make you really glad that you've already started Teoh half decline this invitation then or they just confirmed that you shouldn't go to that reception. Then I think you say I really appreciate you explaining that to me. Either Let us take a little bit more time to think about it. Or you can say, I think we're still gonna

00:20:20

Speaker 1: ask you if it's okay to just go to the ceremony and not the reception. But I really appreciate you taking time to explain it. I think that those those would be ways to handle sort of that follow up. That might very well may come your way.

00:20:33

Speaker 1: Katie, we really hope that this works out for you. That your host or amenable toe the suggestions that you're gonna offer so that you can feel safe and participate and really celebrate this special day.

00:20:44

Speaker 1: This is one party that just has to turn out right. Well, the purpose of a party is toe have fun together. And the successful party needs planning and skill, and they should all be fun.

00:20:59

Speaker 1: Our next question is titled Thank you Know with a twist. I feel like that should be a new cocktail.

00:21:05

Speaker 1: Dear Lizzie and Dan, I recently spent a nice weekend away for a change of scenery. I stayed at a nice Aaron Be, which was a private room basically detached from the hosts living quarters. I had very little interaction with the hosts and that was fine. It was perfectly comfortable in suitable. And I enjoyed the mini vacation immensely. I'd like to write the hosts a thank you card. On top of the email, I sent thumb on my return just to keep the tradition alive and have a reason to use both the post office and the stationery of purchased over time. Here's my small I know conundrum.

00:21:39

Speaker 1: The only quibble I had with this place was that the WiFi, while advertises, being strong and reliable didn't appear to be so. I think the area didn't have particularly great cell phone coverage as an alternative. As a result, using the Internet both on my phone and on my computer wasn't terribly reliable, including texts and phone calls. I was trying to make plans one afternoon, and it was difficult because I couldn't definitively count on receiving a text or call about when to leave to meet them.

00:22:10

Speaker 1: I'd like to mention this to them, but I don't know that including it in a thank you note is appropriate.

00:22:16

Speaker 1: Then again, I feel like slipping in an additional piece of paper solely for the purpose of airing a problem also seems awkward. Can you help guide me through a gentle way of letting them know that one of the things they advertised wasn't exactly great? Thanks so much for all you do disconnected.

00:22:34

Speaker 1: Oh, disconnected. You say this is a small problem, but being disconnected can be a real problem. And, you know, even though it's something we try to go after, sometimes on our vacations, it can be problem, Headache and actually making the vacationing part of vacation happen. Absolutely. And I could think of a couple different ways. I mean, for me, being connected sometimes is about my favorite audiobook or something that would be very much part of my R and R. And other times it might be that

00:23:05

Speaker 1: that coordination with someone that you're tryingto visit with, I think this is

00:23:10

Speaker 1: definitely the kind of thing that a host for an Airbnb would want to know. If there was something that affected your overall positive feeling about an experience and was something that was correctable either in the substance of the thing itself or the way they represent it,

00:23:27

Speaker 1: it's

00:23:28

Speaker 1: in many ways really courteous behavior to let someone know, in fact, honest, he's probably gonna take us there. I should stick to our CRH framework, and we're going to get through a good answer here. So if we if we start with consideration that's who's involved in how are they affected? We've got disconnected and we've got the Airbnb folks, right? And depending on how this is handled, do we also have the greater Airbnb audience that might look at this place that your guests factor? And from here, for sure,

00:23:56

Speaker 1: And how are they all affected? Dan?

00:23:59

Speaker 1: Well, we've got a situation where something's being represented one way, and someone experienced it another way. So there are a few possible solutions.

00:24:07

Speaker 1: We've got a thank you note that's going to be going out. We could include something about the problem and the thank you note. We could not say anything at all. We could up to just send the thank you know, but avoid the awkward, potentially awkward conversation. Or we could communicate about what's awkward in some other way and really keep that, thank you know, focused on the thank you. And we could also ditch the thank you altogether and just file the complaint. It's an option I don't think we're going to go for in this scenario, but it's it's out there. It certainly is an often times. One of the real tips when you're thinking about solutions is give yourself a couple of bad choices because it'll sometimes help you say, Oh, no, that's not a good choice. Obviously, for this reason now you've sort of learned something about the situation. That's that's a particular place you don't want to go, right? I think that evaluating solutions based on respect helps us eliminate some of those options pretty quickly. So not sending anything you know doesn't give voice to all the things you appreciate it about. This experience, yeah, not saying anything about the problem isn't really respectful in some ways to future guests. And if you like air and B, if you like. A system of sort of distributed hosting and guesting

00:25:21

Speaker 1: participating in a way that supports that system is is important, and it is definitely, ah, respectful consideration.

00:25:29

Speaker 1: So that kind of leaves me thinking about that. That middle ground choice I want to send the thank you know I want to say something is the thank you note, the right place for it. What do you think? I don't think it's the right place for it. I think that disconnected instinct that it doesn't feel right to write it in the body of the thank you letter or that it doesn't feel right to added on a separate piece of paper. Both are good etiquette instincts here. I would instead handle the complaint through the platform that I booked these folks on. And so I know that there are personal messaging abilities within Airbnb. And so that's a place where, especially if I

00:26:09

Speaker 1: didn't need or feel the need for this to be an outwardly facing conversation, which I know is a pretty sensitive matter on Airbnb. Ah, lot of hosts, for obvious reasons, prefer that if you have a complaint, you mention it to them privately. And a lot of users say, Hey, people should really know or see how this stuff is handled by you on and you can go through and see on public postings of sites, the comments on them and things like that, some nasty back and forth between folks. I think that if you really like these folks

00:26:45

Speaker 1: personally, I would I would send it as a private message and reiterated the start. What a great time you had. Obviously, your personal thank you note will also do that.

00:26:55

Speaker 1: But you can say there was one thing that I might suggest her that I felt didn't quite line up with the presentation of the Airbnb rental

00:27:06

Speaker 1: online, and that was that The connectivity. I actually had a really hard time with it.

00:27:11

Speaker 1: Um, I also the only thing that comes to mind right now disconnected Teoh is Did you any point Ask them about the connective ity or see if, if anything, like needed a reboot to help get it going. I don't even know if that's possible. Maybe I just made something up, but I always wonder if you have a problem with something. Did you bring it up during your stay at all? That's another thing that that will make me try to handle something a little bit more privately if I haven't requested things, Air talked with them about it during the actual visit. I like that idea of doing a first pass with the hosts and giving them a chance to respond to you, either if it's in the moment with some kind of fix or repair or acknowledgement of the situation, or if it was something I was following up with after, I would either

00:27:59

Speaker 1: be looking for or want to hear some sort of assurance that they were thinking about it looking into it or changed the listing and the way it was advertised. If it is just a condition that because of the load on their system these days, the Internet's not as reliable as it was when they set this thing up six months ago or they've heard from some guests that no, it's it's not as fast or as consistent as they're used to, That they take that information actually change the way they present.

00:28:27

Speaker 1: If you get those kinds of responses to me, it makes it so much easier to not want to leave a public review

00:28:36

Speaker 1: were negative public review. Yeah, and I think that there's room, though also for that public review and to do it in a way that is also honest about all the good experiences that you had, all the things you liked and appreciated about your hosts and the rental, but also is up front about the issues that you had with it. I would, as someone evaluating places to stay, appreciate seeing a review like that. If it was something that you felt wasn't being addressed, I think a respect to that larger community allows for you to share that publicly. I think that's part of the way that space works as long as you do it in a way that's not mean.

00:29:15

Speaker 1: So there you have it disconnected. We say Go for the thank you note, Put all your gratitude in their use the platform as a way to communicate one on one with the Airbnb host about the issue that you had.

00:29:28

Speaker 1: And then if that exchange goes well, great. If that, you know you can post publicly about how great it was and how they even, you know, took feedback really well. And if it doesn't go well, you can use your discretion whether or not you post about that in the in the more public version of the review, we hope this helps, and we hope you have many more wonderful vacations in the future. And what do you think about manners in general? Do you think manners really start with consideration? For others, there's a lot to think and talk about on the subject of manners and many good reasons to ask our banners important,

00:30:17

Speaker 1: we'll finish today with a hazy hat question to whom it may concern, given that due to unfortunate global circumstances, three use of outdoor spaces, some improvised and some not for restaurants is on the rise. I have now eaten outdoors more than ever before. However, this leaves me with a question. Is the outdoor dining area of a restaurant considered to be indoors or outdoors for the purposes of removing a hat, for example? Ah, hallway or elevator, while technically indoors, is treated as outdoors, meaning that a gentleman wears his hat.

00:30:49

Speaker 1: Does the converse apply to outdoor dining that is, while physically outdoors are those spaces to be treated as if indoors for the purposes of hats? Thank you, Brian. Oh, no, no, no, thank you, Brian. Thank you for giving us a deliciously etiquette e geek out question. I am so excited about this. Also, I do remember recently, not recently within the last year, I would say recently reading either a question and I can't work comment, and I can't remember if we ended up using it or not. That was about this idea of hallways and elevators and which are treated as indoors and outdoors, even though they are indoors and even in Emily's own writing I think that's that might be What I'm thinking of is a section from the 1922 edition where we talked about it.

00:31:40

Speaker 1: It's a delicious little space of etiquette. And I love the question you bring to us, Brian, because

00:31:46

Speaker 1: you are right. You're dining with someone. So typically we want our faces open to people. A lot of hats have brims

00:31:53

Speaker 1: traditionally out of respect. We remove hats at the table. So would being outdoors be any different? At the same time, I could see your outdoors. Maybe there aren't any kind of shade coverings or anything that might be really important either for your skin health or for just your own comfort levels due to the heat. I mean, Dan, I could I could go so far. But before I do stop me and let's see our agent,

00:32:19

Speaker 1: I was waiting for that E. I also was excited about this question was saying to myself, I think Lizzie and I are gonna disagree about this one on. I was looking forward to that, and as I was thinking about that, I was saying, you know, let's do the CRH is going to give a nice structure to the discussion, So it's not just well, I think this, and I think that. But who knows? Maybe we end up thinking about it pretty similar by the time we work in a little bit. OK, so who's on your consideration list for who's involved in how they're affected by this?

00:32:51

Speaker 1: So there's hat wearer.

00:32:53

Speaker 1: There are the people dining with hat wearer, and then there the other people in the space

00:33:00

Speaker 1: on I would include the ownership, the people that have worked hard to create the atmosphere, the experience, that outdoor dining situation. I love your list, and I would add one more person to it. And that's the server because while they sort of got included in your general establishment and the other people who are around, there's someone you're going to interact with a little bit more than then sort of those other patrons probably.

00:33:25

Speaker 1: All right, So what are some solutions here? We could leave the hat on. We could take the hat off. I think that might be it. I don't know. I'm just because you know we love that liminal middle ground. Could you opt to leave the hat on but say something to the people around you.

00:33:43

Speaker 1: Okay? I like I like that you found a little middle ground there. Okay? Not everything is binary. E was kind of hoping we would have something that was for once. Okay, So what about respect? What is each of these things do for the for the different parties involved?

00:34:00

Speaker 1: Well, I was delighted that in your first response you talked about one of the reasons we take a hat off being to show respect to the people that you're with. And for me, that falls under the category of tradition, that it's something that's been done. And because of that, it's a courtesy that many people expect. There's a certain language to it. The removing of a hat has become gestural in many ways, and that gesture communicate something oftentimes respect. So when I think about how respect place in, I think taking off your hat at a table is often interpreted by the people around you as something respectful.

00:34:38

Speaker 1: I'm also trying toe acknowledge practicality here that the heart of good etiquette and a lot of the rules around when hats stayed on or when they came off had to do with really practical considerations, and I want to keep that in mind. Also,

00:34:52

Speaker 1: for example, you take your hat off for religious service. But for many people, the hat is part of an outfit for a service and is actually not something that you remove it something you explicitly leave on. And part of that was about style. But also part of it was about the practicality of a hat,

00:35:11

Speaker 1: requiring that it be incorporated and pinned into your hair and just wasn't something that was easy to take on and on.

00:35:18

Speaker 1: So I also want toe, acknowledge an honor, respect some of those practical considerations that make manners possible or not. And I think sometimes when you're outside, a hat is practically useful. If it's keeping your hair contained and from blowing all over the place and making it hard to eat or awkward to eat,

00:35:40

Speaker 1: it might even be there's something about just the angle of the sun. There's glare. There's light on your face, and by having a hat, you can actually look at people more easily. You can connect with people mawr by having a hat on than off. Sometimes those air, just the practical realities that you're dealing with. I think that that's the place that gets me on our honesty. Step to the solution of

00:36:05

Speaker 1: it depends. So consider your surroundings. Is this a formal establishment? Is this sort of like a formal luncheon that you're trying to have and dine outside? Is it a very casual place? I would think just a little bit about the atmosphere that clearly, as Dan had mentioned in that first, who's involved that the establishment is trying to create for this space, and does it feel like a hats appropriate for that? Then I would think about who I'm with, and then I would think about whether or not the hat is serving a particular practicality for me. And those would be sort of how I would like triage or her figure out like where I am with whether or not I should try and wear the hat or not. I think that if I'm going to say yes to wanting to wear the hat, that's where I feel really comfortable moving into the third solution that Dan came up with for us, and that is to leave the hat on. But to explain to my guests or to beg their pardon or the other people that I'm dining with.

00:37:04

Speaker 1: You know, pardon me for keeping my hat on. I have been trying to keep out of the sun or part of me for keeping my hat on to avoid the glare. But if I don't have that, that really practical reason there. I'm gonna fall back into tradition and remove my hat at the table, I think,

00:37:20

Speaker 1: and I'm going to strip the I think right off that thing is where I was imagining us, maybe sort of rubbing up against each other with our answers in a way that might cause a little friction. You just keep your 6 ft distance, Mr. Okay, So to keep things as simple as possible, I was saying to myself, Take your hat off when you sit at a table to eat with other people And I was taking myself into the situation. I was saying, you know, it's not about the externalities beyond the table. I'm really thinking about showing respect to the people that I'm eating with,

00:38:00

Speaker 1: and to me, that's ah, really strong directive, and it probably comes from a place in my childhood. I had a baseball cap that was glued to my head for about two years when I was a teenager and the one place I removed it was because it was the one place where there was no choice. It was just a a certain expectation, one that I was not allowed to question was my grandparent's dinner table.

00:38:23

Speaker 1: And I didn't like the way I looked without my hat on. I didn't like the way my hair fell without my hat on. All of those considerations that,

00:38:31

Speaker 1: um, come in to play came into play for me, and it just didn't matter if you were eating at the table with your grandparent's, he took your hat off. And that burned a groove in my psyche around how much it matters to some people that you showed respect by taking your hat off when you come to the table. And if I was balancing that against the practical concerns, the practical concerns are all about me and my comfort.

00:38:55

Speaker 1: And I'm not saying that those things don't factor into the equation. They might. They might be so important, or they might come to the point where I'm going to make a choice that way. I would feel compelled to say something, and I don't think I ever feel really comfortable with it would be the other way. I'd put it, I would would feel awkward to me doing it. So wait a second, because this is this is where I'm not certain I see the difference between what we were saying because, like, I'm not seeing a whole lot of friction here. You're Your goal would be to always have your hat off. I think the personal that you're expressing is that it would make you uncomfortable to even have to utter an excuse of. I'm watching out for skin cancer right now. So part of me while I live my wide brimmed hat on or something like that.

00:39:40

Speaker 1: But whereas I think I would probably feel a little more comfortable if there was a reason for it just simply stating the reason and eating with my hat on and dealing with it. Is that what you mean?

00:39:51

Speaker 1: It is okay when you when you take us into a safety. Part of the question If my concern was I was recovering from seen cancer and I really was supposed to stay out of the sun That would not make me uncomfortable.

00:40:05

Speaker 1: Supersedes etiquette. Yeah, but to me, this isn't It's an etiquette question. If I'm thinking just broadly if I'm now eating an outdoor dining areas. Is it okay for me to leave my hat on? My etiquette instinct answer is no. No, I'm going to treat those like other places where I'm at the table with people and I'm gonna take my hat off as a sign of respect to those people.

00:40:27

Speaker 1: Brian, we hope this gives you some food for thought and that you feel confident. Whatever you decide when you sit down at your next outdoor table,

00:40:37

Speaker 1: everybody tells me

00:40:40

Speaker 1: I'd like to be more fun

00:40:42

Speaker 1: if I only knew what it meant.

00:40:48

Speaker 1: Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on her answers. Toe awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. Leave a voicemail or text at 802858 k i n d. That's 8028585463 or reaches on Social media on Twitter were at Emily Post inst on Instagram, where at Emily Post Institute and on Facebook were awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media posts, so we know if you want your question on the show.

00:41:23

Speaker 1: If you love awesome etiquette, consider becoming a sustaining member. You can find out more about this by visiting us at patri on dot com slash awesome etiquette that p a T r e o n dot com slash awesome etiquette. You'll get an adds free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content. Plus, you'll feel great knowing you helped to keep awesome etiquette on the air. And to those of you who are already sustaining members, thank you for your support. It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer in the topics we cover. And we have a voicemail from Stephanie, who called in to give us feedback about her experience with handling others who use strong language. Bad words around your Children. Hi, this is Stephanie. I was calling about some feedback to the question about trying to keep the loved ones and friends from cursing around your child. And while I don't usually use a lot of language around people, I do have a friend who is very sensitive to even playing words something, words that I am not really offended by. And so I used them occasionally and one

00:42:30

Speaker 1: two different times. I was using them around him on I dropped one, and they and the mother went, Oh, little ears, little ears. And I just love that I went Oh, so sorry. And that is what, me No, kindly that she didn't really want me to use those words around her son. And I didn't know

00:42:49

Speaker 1: at the time since it wasn't really a curse word, but he just wanted to let me know, and that was her way. And I just really love that. I thought it was really ingenious. She's really gonna twice we've been friends for years and years, but and I know to this day I don't use those words about her sudden. So I just thought that would be a good good advice for somebody to do reminders like my mom always used to give us little reminders when we would forget to get in the car and put our seat belts. You just go out and just a little too word thing that's like a happy a little reminder of the seatbelt. It's kind of like that little years. Oh, little ears. That what? You don't have to make a big, huge deal out of it and people go, Oh,

00:43:27

Speaker 1: and that way you just move on And it's not a big queue, Terry. Deal. Thank you. Have a great day,

00:43:33

Speaker 1: Stephanie. Thank you for that feedback. You definitely reminded me. I have heard little years, little years, and you're right. It is a great reminder it is. No, it's those air kind of those those soft ways. I think that people can get behind a correction about as opposed to feeling like they get something really heavy. And when we talk about a light quick correction, that's the kind of spirit and voice and sound. Little years, little years. Oh, sorry. Sorry. That's what you want to try toe create. Is that space for someone to really accept the correction? And for some reason that that voice and small sweet like you're saying short phrases can be those really easy reminders. Thank you so much for reminding us about little years. And thank you for leaving a voicemail so we could hear you say

00:44:24

Speaker 1: thank you. Presenting us your thoughts and updates. Please do keep them coming. You can send your next feedback or update awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. You can also leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463 We love to hear your voice.

00:44:46

Speaker 1: It's time for our post script segment where we die deeper into a topic of etiquette, and this week we're going to be doing something a little bit different.

00:44:54

Speaker 1: Lizzie and I have stepped away from the light because we wanted to make a little room for a special postscript with Cindy Post Senning.

00:45:02

Speaker 1: And this was something I started thinking about when Cindy joined the show a couple weeks ago, and I have been hoping to do a post script where I got toe, ask some questions, sort of an archive project within the post family. We ended up talking about some Children's etiquette concepts, the when you I feel statements

00:45:21

Speaker 1: and that took precedent and it went very well and it made me think, Boy, I really wanna get Cindy and Peter back on the show more often. Do some other postscript. So this is what's happening. I've got Cindy Post Senning on the line, and I'm going to surprise her with a couple of questions. Mom, are you there? Are you ready to go? I'm here, Dan. Well, thank you for playing along and being willing toe jump on the phone and do this.

00:45:48

Speaker 2: It's my pleasure. I always enjoy doing these chats with you

00:45:52

Speaker 1: Have. Excellent. Well, this one is very much, uh, in the spirit of a chat. And it came from me watching Anisha and Aria playing with you and Pop, and I was thinking about how much I treasure that

00:46:08

Speaker 1: they're getting to know their grandparent's that my kids were getting to know my parents and that your real personalities in their lives. And it got me thinking about my relationship with my grand parents and what

00:46:20

Speaker 1: how president they were for me growing up and how I have a real sense of them as people. And it got me thinking about Poppy a little bit. My grandfather, your father and that Emily posed was his grandmother and that he probably really knew her well, had a real sense of whom she Waas and I wanted Teoh ask you about that a little bit because he's not available. I was curious what your impressions are of Emily as you heard them from your father. If I were to ask you what did your father tell you about Emily as a person? The person that he knew. What's the first thing that pops into your mind?

00:47:01

Speaker 2: I think the first thing is that they were really close, that when he was with her, she was sort of devoted to him that he tells stories about going to her apartment in New York. He also lived in New York and going and playing with his toys soldiers. And they would both be on the ground in front of her fireplace, setting up all these little toy soldiers. And I don't know what they blade. But that was one of his fondest memories of her was that sort of time. They spent together playing and doing things. He he spent much of his growing up life with her. Ah, he was very close with her. He he was her only grandchild and he spent summers with her on the vineyard in Edgar Town, where she had a house He actually lived with her for 10 weeks every summer, and I think she was devoted to him. And that's what I think of my impression of that was the way he talked about her was this close relationship that she really was devoted to him and he felt it.

00:48:06

Speaker 1: I'm curious about what age is. Would he have been when he did those summers on the vineyard with Emily?

00:48:11

Speaker 2: Oh, my goodness, I don't know. Probably, you know, the equivalent of,

00:48:16

Speaker 2: like, middle school. He actually went Teoh ST Paul School in New Hampshire prep school boarding school. And when he would come home from boarding school and stay with his parents in their apartment in New York City until his birthday, which was the Fourth of July, and then right after the Fourth of July, he would go and stay with her. So he was old enough to kind of travel and be with her without his parents there. His parents went to Newport, and he really preferred Edgar Town, and he preferred sort of being with his grandma that he loved being with his grandmother. So that worked really well for him and he was old enough he would do sailing and playing tennis and kind of hanging out on the in Edgar Town in a way sort of different, a little less formal and social I. D. Than Newport that he also described that that way.

00:49:07

Speaker 1: Interesting.

00:49:08

Speaker 1: Oh, and I'm curious about sort of aspects or elements of Emily's personality that might emerge in how Poppy would talk about her things that he thought were admirable about her, or maybe things that weren't so admirable little personality works that that worked or didn't work between them.

00:49:31

Speaker 1: Any personal reflections like that, you

00:49:33

Speaker 2: can remember. There are two things that I recall about his reflections about her, other than that, as I said. But I prefaced all of that always with the extent to which he felt very close with her, that they were always very close. But he went to M. I t in Boston for his college experience, and she came to see him and he did not want her to come to the fraternity house he was in because, well, she was already, you know, she was famous on the etiquette lady, and he just sort of didn't feel

00:50:07

Speaker 2: comfortable about that with his gang of friends kind of at the fraternity so he wouldn't bring her to the fraternity. And she was furious with him. And it's the one time I remember him talking about her being angry with him,

00:50:20

Speaker 2: that she got very angry with him because he wouldn't bring her to the fraternity in Boston. And so that would have been college age. You ask what his age is? Were the other thing about her that he talked about, that that he had talked about in one of his stories about her was the extent to which, when she was sort of, if she had

00:50:42

Speaker 2: was angry with somebody, not him. In that case, I don't want to mix that up with that. But if something happened in, somebody fell out of favor with her out of a friendship or whatever she would be done. She was done with that person When she got divorced from her husband. That was it. She had nothing more to do with him. Other than that, the boys went, went to her son's. My my grandfather went to stay with their father. Other than that, she sort of had nothing to do with him, she didn't mention him or talk about him. When it was done, it was done. And when I was growing up, we lived in South America for a number of years. Seven years, and we came home from that sort of seven year stint at one point, and my father realized that a woman who had been her very close, personal friend and secretary was no longer in the picture, and there had been a time where she had sort of let it slip that she thought she was going to be the one kind of inheriting the out of the etiquette world and grandmama. That's what we called Emily both She was grandma motto us. Grandma was furious that she had never indicated to this woman that she was going to be taking over the etiquette world and the ended the relationship. They were done, and my dad never heard about her in the picture again. That happened while we were away. And when he came home and he asked about it, he just got no sort of story. There was no discussion about it anyway, she when she was done, she was done. Let me just put it that way,

00:52:16

Speaker 1: but so interesting. Oftentimes of this show. When Lizzie and I were answering questions, I find myself being the one saying, Well, that's the super You could be shut of that whole situation, the better

00:52:28

Speaker 1: you put a bow on that and never think about it again. Yeah, easier your life's gonna be It's a 20. There's a a nd a slightly less severe version of that sort of sentiment has definitely been passed down in the family, no question.

00:52:44

Speaker 2: And I just have to say that that I think about the couple of videos we have of her those videos. We have some videos of her playing with my brothers Allen and Bill and just watching her kind of laughing with them and tossing the ball for Allen and just being engaged even in her kind of dress, grandmother issue dress and everything that she had on. She was just down there on the lawn playing with them, and I love that video. It just makes me see that side of her.

00:53:11

Speaker 1: You're making me think that I have to make an offer toe. Put that video. I'm gonna do it on our patri on page for our sustaining members, and I know where Facebook Page has been relatively silent for a while. But I was talking to our social media manager last week, and we're wanting to pay some more attention to that page. This would be a great opportunity to put some of those home movies upper people could take a look at

00:53:34

Speaker 2: she She was very fonder of all of her, the people who read her books and we're you know, we're would come on the bustin

00:53:44

Speaker 2: or would come and stop and take pictures of her house and Edgar Town, and she would occasionally invite people in and just talk with them and learn about what was going on in their lives. That helped her as she developed her different etiquette pieces. So she was sort of outgoing and friendly, and

00:54:02

Speaker 2: that way, you know, Anyway, I don't remember her too much. I was 10 when she died, and

00:54:09

Speaker 2: no, I actually was 13. But I didn't see her much as she was older and not quite as well in her last couple of years. And I just remember people ask me what I thought of her, and I can only tell you this It was like going to your grandmother's like any one of you who might go to your grandmother's. I don't think I realized she was like an etiquette lady. It was like when you went to your grandmother's, you dressed up a little bit and you got there on time and you have dinner with your grandmother, you know. So anyway, that's the way I always thought of

00:54:39

Speaker 1: her.

00:54:40

Speaker 1: Well, you kind of anticipated the last question

00:54:43

Speaker 1: asked today, which was just about some of the details of life, the way she live, the things that might have happened every day. That didn't seem like big deals. But my give us, Ah, a little more of a picture of her personality.

00:54:55

Speaker 1: That's kind of what you're talking about.

00:54:57

Speaker 2: You know, she had a pretty standard routine. She would wake up and she would ring and they would and and her maid would bring her coffee and her muffins in bed, and she worked in her bed until just before noon, when she would get up to get dressed and get ready for the day and go down and have her lunch downstairs, and then she would work in the afternoons whether she was in New York or in Edgar town, she would work in the afternoons. And then dinner was at 71 of the things that my dad does talk about her a lot was the extent of which being on time was for her, the most important thing. And you just were never late. And dinner was at seven. And I said to him once, What happened if you didn't get there in time for dinner, you know what? If you were sailing and the wind went away or something, you will come. He said you never got there later than seven. You just didn't know. It was like, Oh, okay.

00:55:53

Speaker 2: Oh, she was pretty strict about that and having having the clock set in her house. And the woman who used to call her to dinner would come up and wait outside the puzzle room or wherever she was working in the house about a minute or two before, so she could call her to dinner at exactly seven o'clock

00:56:14

Speaker 1: the streak of seven.

00:56:15

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:56:17

Speaker 2: So that's how so. She was pretty definitive about some things, and straightforward. She was very bright. She was intelligent She loved writing. She loved her work.

00:56:27

Speaker 2: You know all of those things. She loved doing her radio show as much as anything else that she did. She listened to the radio. She loved colors. She had plastic covers for her telephone. So she had read and different color telephones in her different rooms. Interesting lady.

00:56:44

Speaker 1: Well, I could go on like this all afternoon and very well might someday. But

00:56:50

Speaker 1: we do have time constraints on this show. So I'm gonna try to keep this short for Chris and busy sake. But thank you so much for taking the time to jump on and be surprised by a few questions about the family.

00:57:03

Speaker 2: My pleasure. I love talking about Emily, and she was really a special woman. And I enjoy having the opportunity to tell people about her stuff. Thanks. And thank

00:57:12

Speaker 1: you. Our listeners for indulging me. I kind of different postscript this week. And if you like what you hear, let us know because we can do more of this kind of thing in the future.

00:57:24

Speaker 1: No, you know that you're much, but do it

00:57:28

Speaker 1: inconspicuously and be sure your handkerchief is fresh.

00:57:33

Speaker 1: I don't apologize.

00:57:37

Speaker 1: We like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world. And that could come in so many forms. And today we have an email from Faith.

00:57:48

Speaker 1: Howdy ae team. I wanted to share a netiquette salute for my co worker, Felisha. We live in a country where employers are expected to provide housing for their employees. Which means that many of my co workers live in the same apartment building that I dio. Felisha happens to live in the apartment above mine. And a couple months after we all began working from home due to the pandemic, I received an email from her with this message. Hi, Faith. I hope, fellas. Well, I know you live directly underneath me, so I just want to give you a heads up. I do home workouts almost everyday for an hour in my bedroom. The program I am doing is pretty intense, and sometimes we have to do a lot of jumping and fast steps. I try my best not to make too much noise, but please excuse me if you hear me. Thanks for understanding. Honestly, I hadn't even noticed any noise from her direction. But it was so nice to hear her think about the fact that I was below her and not only let me know about it, but try not to make any noise while exercising so that she didn't disturb me. We barely know each other. We don't interact much at work and don't socialize together. But she still took the time to think about her coworker slash acquaintance downstairs, and it really warmed my heart.

00:59:02

Speaker 1: Thanks, Felisha. And thanks to everyone at the Emily Post Institute for the Great Podcast Best faith.

00:59:09

Speaker 1: What a great salute. It's such a reminder to me that

00:59:13

Speaker 1: reaching out is so important it does. The behavior doesn't change any of the expectations. Don't shift any. Just make someone feel so good to be considered an acknowledged faith. Thank you for sharing.

00:59:33

Speaker 1: And thank you for listening. Thank you to everyone who sent us something and thank you to everyone who supports us on patriots. Please connect with us and share this show with your friends, family and co workers. And on social media, you can send us your next question feedback or salute by email, Awesome etiquette and Emily post dot com. You can leave us voicemail or text at 80 to a 58 time. That's 80 to 855463 wear at Emily Post Inst on Twitter were at Emily Post Institute on Instagram and were awesome etiquette and the Emily potions to do on Facebook.

01:00:09

Speaker 1: Please, please please consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting patri on dot com slash awesome etiquette.

01:00:18

Speaker 1: You can also subscribe to the ads version of our show on Spotify or your favorite podcast app on. Please consider leaving us a review. It helps other people find awesome etiquette. Our show is edited by Chris Albertine and assistant produced by Bridget Dowd. Thanks, Chris.