Episode 315 - Ignored

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social courtesy that's old fashioned.

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Speaker 1: Watch how busy post and damn posts and act as host and hostess.

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Speaker 1: They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person. Really Friendliness. Hello and welcome toe Awesome etiquette,

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Speaker 2: where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty.

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Speaker 1: On today's show, we take your questions on what to do when you're ignored. Trying to join a conversation, sending multiple emails to your favorite podcasts, listing your pronouns in business correspondence and celebrating a 50 year anniversary. But a few months

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Speaker 2: later for awesome etiquette sustaining members. Our question of the week is about inviting co workers to your wedding,

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Speaker 1: plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a special postscript where I get to interview my dad Peter Post on his memories of Emily

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Speaker 2: Post. All that coming up

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Speaker 2: Awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute.

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Speaker 1: I'm Lizzie Post,

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Speaker 2: and I'm Dan Post sending

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Speaker 1: Hey, how's it going? Because it's going great. I had two of my girlfriends over for dinner this week, which sounds nearly scandalous in this environment that we're in. But do Teoh a nice backyard and a large table and some friends that I really trust and know really well, it went really. It was great. Everyone was able to feel comfortable and I actually put a tablecloth on the table and they used napkins e I put out just the amount of silverware that we needed. So there was no extra spoon for the dishes that didn't require spoons, although there was rice. So maybe maybe I should have put out a spoon. Um, I put out candles. I didn't have flowers for a centerpiece, but I grabbed all the fresh basil Dan that you and I have been picking from the C S. A. I had just huge, huge bush of that. And so I threw it into a vase, and it actually I don't usually recommend putting like a ah heavily aromatic item on the table because you really want the food to be what you smell when you're eating it. Yeah, like if that s so Basil, you know, really strong smell. And I didn't want it. Thio overpower the dinner Luckily, the dinner had a lot of strong, like curry. It was that curry marinade that we dio It had just such strong smells that it kind of it won out. But it was It was really nice putting candles out and, you know, making everything up nice and actually really trying to host. I would say more than the average Come on over, and we'll do, you know, each pod can grill or whatever. You know what I mean? It felt nice to kind of do something different. That felt. Ah, little more like an actual dinner party. It was It was awesome. We stayed late into the night talking outside with, like, two coats on each.

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Speaker 2: Well, you're

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Speaker 1: kind of

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Speaker 2: anticipating my question. I was going to say when you're playing that host role a little mawr. How were the guest? Did they dance

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Speaker 1: on it?

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Speaker 2: Sounds like they did.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. No, my guests definitely participated in the dance. It was It was great. Um, and it was it had that. I mean, I've got to say, audience, I've been writing this very long chapter on entertainer section of the book on Entertaining at home, and it's felt so hard, Thio not throw some classic dinner parties just toe, you know, remember the experience and have things pop up that that remind you Oh, you've got to write about this kind of stuff or to just feel like you do this regularly. This year has been a year where we just haven't been able to experience that, really. And so it was kind of nice among two very close friends to be able to flex that hosting muscle and feel connected to the work I'm writing about. I could only imagine it must

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Speaker 2: be a real challenge balancing those two things, and it must be really nice to bring them into harmony just a little bit.

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Speaker 1: It had a really good effect on, but it was It was It was It was just a really great evening. So thank you to my lovely friends for being really, really safe and good participants as dinner party guests during this very strange time that we're

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Speaker 2: living in. Because that sounds like so much fun. I know that you are a social creature and arrive on those interactions, so I'm simply delighted that you've got a chance to do that and that it worked. That went well,

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Speaker 1: thank you. I definitely a

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Speaker 2: benefit to the spirit and kind of quietly is your business partner. I'm glad that the research

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Speaker 1: continues. I had a feeling that perspective is going to come in at some point. Um, well as your business partner. Should we get to some business of answering questions today?

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Speaker 2: I think that's a great idea. Let's dio

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Speaker 2: awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions. You can email them toe awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463 You can also reach us on social media on Twitter. We're at Emily Post inst on instagram were at Emily Post Institute and on Facebook were awesome etiquette. Just remember to use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the show.

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Speaker 2: Uh huh.

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Speaker 1: Our first question is titled asking to be acknowledged. What do you do in a social or work situation, such as a Christmas party or an outdoor barbecue? When you walk up to two people talking to say hello, and they don't acknowledge that you walked up.

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Speaker 1: They do not stop there conversation to talk to you when several minutes go by and they still have not really acknowledged that you're there. Do you walk away or do you stand there and wait? Anonymous

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Speaker 2: O Anonymous. This is such an unfortunate situation. You paint a vivid picture about the behavior that I think of as one of the rudest that I can imagine, which is failing to acknowledge someone. And

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Speaker 2: before I get into exactly what I would advise you do in a situation like this, I have to point out, or just mention how awkward this all feels. And so often, when we're confronted with rudeness, the most useful thing that we can do is tow. Learn from it to say to ourselves, Boy, that that feels terrible. That leaves this person in a really awkward and difficult position, and that's why we advise that you don't do it when you're at functions where a certain degree of mix and mingling is expected, not just allowed. That part of the courtesy of that space is that you acknowledge people you invite people into your conversation. You introduce people when you can. You do self introductions when it's impossible. Toe have those introductions made by other people, and it is such common courtesy. It is such basic respect to acknowledge people to make a little paused, allow for the eye contact and the nod, even if you're not going to disrupt a conversation or interrupted immediately that someone feels like they've been acknowledged anyway, Just have to put that baseline in

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Speaker 1: place before we talk about how

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Speaker 2: you respond to that kind of

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Speaker 1: well, it is. It is really important important to put that baseline in place because it acknowledges that this behavior is wrong. That what anonymous experiences or what anonymous is describing in this situation is wrong for the two people talking to be doing from a netiquette standpoint, at least. But one thing I want to just tuck in is, does anyone else just feel like, Oh my gosh, so been there? So been there. I think everything this is this is like this situation I actually find to be so annoyingly common. Unfortunately, unfortunately, might even be a much better word. Unfortunately, common, it's, I mean, a number of times I've I've been at, you know, parties with friends, people I know perfectly well in this happens and you're just, like, really like it's very strange feeling. And, um and right off the bat, you know, anonymous says, what do you dio when several minutes go by and they still, you know, Do you walk away? Do you stand there and wait and it's so funny for me, it's always dependent on each and every circumstances. Sometimes I do just walk away like, now this conversation that this party is not really working. I'm going off like, you know, or I'm not gonna get anywhere here. This isn't gonna work. And you kind of just take the awkward moment There was one created by no acknowledgement being there. And so you know what? Like it's not like I want to say, two negatives make a positive, but you haven't been invited in to interrupt in order to say goodbye. Almost seems extra, like like adding awkwardness and that by just simply walking away, it's kind of less awkward than by announcing that you're going to walk away.

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Speaker 2: You are getting into the subtlety of the answer that I was really hoping we would get Thio.

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Speaker 1: Oh, good. Oh, good. Carry us away. I couldn't

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Speaker 2: agree anymore. I think that in many ways the trick is than not to escalate the rudeness, but to to disengage from it. And that can feel rude like you say now, leaving without excusing yourself for saying goodbye. But you've never been provided with those opportunities. I think that

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Speaker 2: the biggest mistake you can make is to escalate the rudeness So you wouldn't wanna walk away in a huff or appear aggrieved or insulted that in some ways you

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Speaker 1: know that that's the the I know. No exasperated what they call a teapot or steaming engine. You know, like

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Speaker 2: and in some ways that inspires me to say if there's a way that you can execute a courteous, um, just sort of an eye contact and a just acknowledge that I'm going elsewhere and

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Speaker 1: that could be enough if not actually saying, I'm going elsewhere and just walking away but doing it through the through the quick eye contact

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Speaker 2: or something, and I think I contact your best friend there. If you can even get

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Speaker 1: that, I was going to say the number of times where I've just been there and it's like You almost feel like you're watching a tennis match. You listen to that person, you focus on them. You turn your to listen to the other person. The other person, the other person, Anonymous is right. A few minutes go by. Nobody's even made eye contact with you. I think you could depart without without having any major social obligations of courtesy right there.

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Speaker 2: Exactly. And I'll go even further. Really, if we really put on our best best best etiquette hat, what is the the best possible face you could put on the rude behavior you're encountering? What is the best possible explanation for someone not interrupting a conversation to invite you in that that conversation was just so good that it was so engaging? They were so into it that, for whatever reason, that wasn't a break moment and that in their minds they're either distracted and elsewhere because they're so engaged or they're thinking to themselves as soon as I get the opportunity, as soon as this particular exchange provides, an opportunity will engage this other person. I'm not going to say the conversation is so private because they shouldn't be having that conversation to begin with. But if it's so good, If that was me in that position and someone tried to get in and then departed, I'd want them to leave. In the spirit of Oh, I didn't realize something so good was happening here. I'm not gonna interrupt it like that's the thought. I'm putting in my mind as I excused myself, which is, I know a ridiculously positive been to put on it. But it's the feeling I'm gonna try to get.

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Speaker 1: I think that one of the other if you wanted to go super generous, it's that they just assume you're going to jump right in because you know them or something. It might be a familiarity thing where they're they're just, you know, Why wouldn't Chelsea just start talking to us in the middle of this? You know? You know, she she always chimes in on stuff. It's another explanation for it. I don't think these explanations equate to, like reasoning an excuse that really, I think can be heavily warranted. I think you you usually do the good thing of acknowledging someone that that should still be the standard we're aiming for And of course we are. But you're right, Dan. If you if you went down the major grains of salt, those I think

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Speaker 2: would be them. So this is already a long answer to a short question.

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Speaker 1: Should we just

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Speaker 2: take a a taste of the other option in this situation?

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Speaker 1: What's the other option? What are you thinking?

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Speaker 2: And I've got it in my show notes as stay and fight. And it's not really staying to fight, but that you hang out and that you

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Speaker 1: look for your opportunity to get in. You don't mind? You say Okay, this is

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Speaker 2: a public place where there's some expectation that we can move around socially here, and I'll just I'll give him a chance toe. Find that moment in the conversation to acknowledge me, or where there's enough of a pause that I can make my self introduction or you already know each other my contribution to this conversation.

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Speaker 1: And of course, as we said earlier

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Speaker 1: situational, there will be times where you stand and wait. There will be times where you interject. There will be times where you walk off without making eye contact times where you walk off with making eye contact. It just will vary, and hopefully you can use consideration, respect and honesty and awareness of your own perspective to really make a decision for what's best for each

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Speaker 2: of those types of circumstances. If you are going to go that route of waiting for your opportunity toe kind of break into the conversation, I would also say, Don't forget your magic words. Excuse me and pardon me. Are your absolute friends to wrap that minor interruption in some courtesy

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Speaker 1: Anonymous. Thank you for giving us a chance to explore this super awkward moment.

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Speaker 1: Susan

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Speaker 1: Susan Jane.

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Speaker 1: What's the matter with you? Why is everyone else having such a good time when you're not? Why do they always leave you out?

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Speaker 1: Do you look different?

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Speaker 1: Is it some way you act?

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Speaker 1: What makes you the outsider?

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Speaker 1: The outsider, the one nobody asks.

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Speaker 2: Our next question is about being a proper podcast listener Lizzie and Dan. Recently, I was talking to a friend about advice, podcasts, and when it's proper to send in a question, she argued that it's rude to send multiple questions or comments because it doesn't let everyone have a chance to get their question answered. Her view is that each listener should Onley send in one question ever to make it fair toe. Others that want their questions answered.

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Speaker 2: Well, I certainly don't think it's OK to email questions weekly or even monthly. I have sent questions to various podcast when I genuinely had a question or idea that I thought they would find interesting. I never expect the question to be answered, of course, but it's nice when I get to hear the advice of someone I respect on the issue. My view is that advice podcast wouldn't exist without listeners sending in questions, and that as long as no answer is expected, sending multiple questions is okay.

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Speaker 2: As

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Speaker 1: people who

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Speaker 2: have a podcast about etiquette, what is the etiquette of writing into podcasts trying to be a respectful listener?

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Speaker 1: Oh, trying to be a respectful listener. Thank you for writing in with this question right in, right in daily, right in weekly, right in monthly, right in yearly, right in whenever you want. I like it when you all right in just to say Hey, like, it's honestly please write in the more questions that we get, the better because it's the more content that we have to choose from for the show. Um, the mawr questions that we get the better because the more voices and perspectives we here and we can even start to hear Oh, my goodness, here we go. The holidays air coming the thank you note questions start up, and it's amazing. We love getting every single one. It does mean that because the volume increases, we don't have the chance to answer all of them. Um, but when you start seeing patterns of people asking very similar questions, it does allow for you to choose that type of question to be answered. And hopefully rather than just answering one individual quest person's question, you're solving a problem for a good 20 or 30 of your listeners because they all wrote in about it. Even though one was kind of chosen as the sample version of

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Speaker 2: it, I couldn't agree more with all of the reasons why it is good, good, good, and nothing but good to

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Speaker 1: get your podcast host.

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Speaker 2: Uh, and what I really like about the way this whole question is set up is that it's paired with I don't want to say with an expectation, but with the absence of an expectation and that is so liberating that if you really are operating from that free place of appreciating that there might be a volume, that means that you aren't going to get an individual personalized response to everything that you submit

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Speaker 2: that all of a sudden the cost on you is very low. If you don't get that individual response. And I will tell you from my perspective on the receiving end is the podcast host the benefits so outweigh all those benefits that Lizzie was just talking about outweigh any possible negatives of Oh, this is just too much that the cost benefit analysis to me is really easy. When you strip away those expectations of the personal reply toe, let those benefits accrue. So I think that you're you're working really well in both ways, both participating and doing it in a way that's really free.

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Speaker 1: Trying to be a respectful listener. I will tell you that we rarely, ever take take true sides. But this is one where you asked our opinion in our our opinion does align with your perspective right in. Please encourage your friends to write in You really will be keeping this shows that you love alive by making sure that you are contributing to their content. Um, and also by being voices that say we want to participate I mean, podcast audience engagement is a huge, huge thing, and this content is created for you. So why not take every opportunity to try and participate in it in in the ways that you might be able t

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Speaker 2: o trying to be a respectful listener? We think you are succeeding at being a respectful listener and also of being a respectful participant. Thank you so much. Just

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Speaker 1: remember how Fred prepared himself by convincing himself that people wanted him to speak by creating confidence in himself. Brad did it.

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Speaker 1: You can do it.

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Speaker 1: No,

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Speaker 1: this question is titled pronouns and where to put, um,

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Speaker 1: good afternoon. I have a question that I'd like to pose for your show. I work on a college campus where a growing number of students, faculty and staff are choosing to list personal pronouns in email signatures on business cards, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: There is quite a bit of writing online that connects to the etiquette of using other people's chosen pronouns but there's not a lot of etiquette guidance about where to and not to list. Um,

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Speaker 1: email signature is most common among my coworkers, but we have recently fielded requests to see them on personalized letterhead, business cards and in the signature line of print letters. Can you provide any guidance locations where a user should and shouldn't list so that an office might have uniforms expectations? Thank you, Michael. This is a great question.

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Speaker 2: This is a great question. This is something Lizzie that you and I have been talking about now for several months, and this question gives us a chance. Thio go a little bit deeper. Um, for those of our listening audience, that artist familiar with the practice. It's not uncommon now when making greetings or first introductions toe let someone know which pronouns you use. So at a conference that I attend in person, there might be a group at the start where we introduce ourselves and we say, Hi, my name's Dan sending. I'm here from the Emily Post Institute. I use he him pronounced, and that gives everybody enough information to address me appropriately moving forward, whether they're going to be talking to me or writing to me after the conference or anything.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that this allows for is for no matter what you're used to, assuming it takes the assumption out of things right at the get go right at the introduction of someone when Dan and I talk about etiquette of the future, this is one of the things that we imagine expanding to be commonplace for everyone and not not just within specific communities or groups, but that it's really something that we recognize. We don't have a way of telling what someone's pronounce, that they use our unless they introduced themselves and let us know what they are on. But to respect that in the world of greetings and introductions might mean that one day that's just automatically included and how we introduce ourselves right right out of the gate. It's a really interesting topic from an etiquette perspective, but I think that Michael, our question asked her, is really right, that there's not as much guidance for some of the specific areas. We see it a lot in business cards and email signatures where people put the pronouns that they use below their name or below their title or next to it, but we don't see it as much, I think, in standard office stationery yet or on the signature of a letter. And I this this really sparked some things for me as we were reading the

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Speaker 2: question and thinking forward. One of the things I like so much about this question is that there's some specificity we're really concerned here with. How do we handle this with the written word when we're talking about how we present on emails and company stationery and business cards, it's really thinking about the question of pronouns in terms of how it's going to impact some really traditional etiquette expectations about how we share names, titles, contact information with each other, how we established levels of formality and who has access thio the options that allow you to establish those different levels of formality.

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Speaker 2: So it makes a lot of sense to me that the email signature line is a place where it's been relatively easier where our question asked her. Michael is seeing an adoption of letting people know about pronounce.

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Speaker 2: I like also the specificity of the question, saying, Well, what about when we move to business cards or letterhead that's personalized or the signature lines of print letters. And I also like knowing that there have been specific requests from people to have these options or to see those things included in, um, communication that they're receiving,

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Speaker 2: because that tells us that this is this is coming in response to a community or an individual request. And that's important from a netiquette perspective as well.

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Speaker 1: Any time people are asking for things, they're saying, We want this, We need this. We want guidelines. We want something to follow those air, definitely times you're right down where we we pay attention. Yes, because it's gonna make someone else feel

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Speaker 2: good, and they're telling us exactly what would make them feel good. And that makes it easy. So ifit's a doable thing. If it's possible, I think it's a good idea to try to figure out the best way to do

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Speaker 1: it. Talk to us a little bit about what letterhead is, because I am sure there are plenty of members in our audience who have never had to use it or who might work in industries and businesses where they just don't ever use it. so describe to us sort of what letterhead looks like. Since it was one of the specific things Michael was saying, How do we handle letterhead?

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Speaker 2: So in a professional context, most often it's the letterhead that represents the organization. So it's the physical paper that you're writing on, or the pdf that you're generating these days comes pre for about it. There's already, uh, printed information on the top and the bottom, and that can look slightly different in different circumstances and situations. But usually it identifies. The communication is coming from a new organization, even though it's from an individual within that organization. So it serves a couple of purposes. It's practical because just there's paper to write on. There's, uh, information on that paper already that says, I'm working for this organization. It makes it easy to get back in touch with the organization to identify who that person works for, and sometimes it looks good. It is sort

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Speaker 1: of an aesthetic choice, which is going

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Speaker 2: to come into play in. Our answer here is well,

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Speaker 1: the set up is that you typically have the company's logo somewhere in the upper left or some some people center things, but there's often the name and address on it if we're talking about personalized. But it has all the contact info, often even down to email, address, phone number and website u R l. And so when you're thinking about putting this kind of identifying information onto a piece of paper, it makes a lot of sense that we would say, Oh, yeah, would we include pronounce here?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. And for me, the answer. There comes from a really practical perspective that if the information on that stationary is about the organization, the group, the pronoun information is probably not

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Speaker 2: necessary. It's probably not relevant. So the Emily Post Institute doesn't have a pronoun associate ID with it if that stationary gets personalized. If the name and individual contact information of someone within the organization is included on that letterhead, so now it's personalized organizational letterhead, then you've got a personal choice to make, and one of our core tenants behind good etiquette is the individual gets to decide how they're addressed, how they represent themselves, how they identify themselves

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Speaker 2: for other people and having the option to include pronouns as one of the choices there to me is A. It's a no brainer. I would absolutely want that option for any individual within the organization, and particularly if there are requests for people of the organization is doing business with to include that information. I would want to make sure that's available to anybody who's getting personalized stationery. Now comes the fun part. Lizzie bows.

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Speaker 1: I was going to say So here is probably the more specific question. Where on that personalized corporate stationary do you choose Thio? Identify those pronounce. Do you do a comma after your name and then the pronounce that you use? Do you do it on the line right below your name? Does it drop down toe after your title? But before your phone number, I am curious as to what we think is proper placement of the pronoun. This is my

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Speaker 2: thinking on it and a great big red flag warning that this is not a place where there is a long traditional etiquette that we can look at and say, Oh, it's been done this way So this is the way we're going to do it. This is definitely new and emerging etiquette, and

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Speaker 2: we want to balance the traditional expectations with the very practical reasons that we're moving forward with some new etiquette.

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Speaker 1: Well, one of the things you also said we need to balance it out when we were talking was aesthetics, and I actually I I liked my cousin championing for how something looks and feels to the eye when it came to to an element of adding a piece of information into grouped information.

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Speaker 2: And I think those visual aesthetics are important. And I

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Speaker 2: I think the way something looks and feels not just to the eye but to the heart matters as well. And when I think about choosing pronouns, it's such a personal choice for people for so many reasons. That's why it matters so much to people. And it's why it's important that we take care with how we adopt this etiquette. But for me, it's such a personal choice that I think of it as part of the identity of the individual. So I would be thinking about including pronoun information closer to the name and title than I would to the contact information, and I've seen it done both ways. I've seen people on, and this is a business card example, not Ah, letterhead. Example include pronouns with contact information, so not in the name that's in the middle of the card and the title, but with the preferred ways to contact your social handle your phone number if you give it your email and pronouns are included there.

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Speaker 2: I really like the idea of having an option to include pronouns with name and title, and I'm less certain on whether I would do name on one line and then right below it pronouns and position, or whether I would do name and then someone's position and prefer pronounce on the same line. I don't think in the middle of a business card, I would use the whole line for pronouns. To me, that starts to feel like a lot of line. Wait in the middle of a pretty small card.

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Speaker 2: Eso That's where the aesthetic visual starts to come into play. But I'm also kind of listening to my heart and that I'm wanting to give that pronoun information placement near the name where, where it's sort of connected to the individual in a way that feels close

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Speaker 1: for me. That's the one that feels, I think, more comfortable in the letterhead position like having my name followed by my pronounce like and I I would for some reason choose to put a comma after my name and then and then the pronounce, maybe two separate it out. But on the business card, I really liked the description that you had of sort of. Here's all my contact info and here are my pronouns and I feel like that application there I like as opposed to seeing my name and then with a comma and my pronouns after my name on the business card, and I think it will be different for different people. But I like the exploring of it in the taking the time to think about it, because again, these are trends that we are seeing be much more broadly accepted and used, and it's really it's really cool to see it. It's really cool to explore it and think about it and apply it to

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Speaker 2: yourself.

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Speaker 2: Traditionally, people got a lot of the information that we're talking about sharing explicitly by sharing pronouns from the title. So if you had a business card that shared your professional title as Mr most people made the assumption that you preferred he him pronounce. And the same was true of Mrs or Mrs that that gave someone a pretty clear indication that you were going to be using she her pronounce. The reality of a world that's not as black and white as binary and isn't served by those assumptions is something that we're coming to terms with now. And it's definitely,

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Speaker 2: um, area of etiquette where we expect to see continued change, and we don't know exactly what it's gonna look like. A lot of people comfortably lean back on those titles as a way to share gender identification. And it might be true that people in the organization make that choice and lean on those traditional assumptions. It's a really important question to think about how choosing to be explicit allows everyone to feel included in the community and, like those assumptions aren't just made about them automatically.

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Speaker 1: And I think Dan, that is a perfect place to end a conversation that we could have for a very long time, and we hope to address Mora's. The show goes on. But Michael, we want to say thank you so much for raising this question. We certainly hope to be providing more detailed information on Emily post dot com soon so that you do have search results that land and give solid good information about how to incorporate pronouns into today's stationery and business communications. Thank you so much for the question. Do you think you could be happy about rules now Way. Remember that rules to make things better for everybody? Yeah. If you don't understand the rules, find out why the rule is made. If you really know why, then it will prob wait Found.

00:33:41

Speaker 2: Our last question this week is about anniversary announcements. Hi. My parents are celebrating their 50th wedding anniversary in December of 2020 and friends and family are excited to celebrate with, um however, the party we were planning had to be delayed. Would it be appropriate to send out Save the date invitations in October, including the date of the actual anniversary and the full details of the event planned for March 2021? Sample suggestions are welcome.

00:34:10

Speaker 2: Thank you for your help. Celebration conundrum.

00:34:13

Speaker 1: Gay 50th wedding anniversary. That's a big anniversary. One thing I really like about the way that celebration conundrum has has thought about this at least, I think if I'm getting your right here is that the idea is that if you send the invitation out now, number one people can plan really far ahead. Hopefully, hopefully all things will be safe and people can travel on gather at that point. But what I like is that it would give people a clue that the anniversary party is going to be much long after the anniversary itself. And I think it might encourage people to congratulate the couple on the anniversary at the time of their actual anniversary. You know, knowing that that an event might happen, you know, a few months later. But I kind of like the idea that this might spur a few anniversary cards. Come in your parents way in December. That's my thinking on this. I

00:35:07

Speaker 2: know it's 1/50 wedding anniversary. This is so

00:35:11

Speaker 1: much fun. This is

00:35:12

Speaker 2: so exciting, I say. Tell people I love the idea of sharing the both the date of the actual anniversary as well as the anticipated party plan, including that information lets the people that receive it know exactly how they could respond personally as well as participate in this group celebration event and

00:35:35

Speaker 2: I would appreciate hearing that about someone in my life. Did you know that their 50th is happening? Just happened was on this day we're planning a big party for then

00:35:44

Speaker 1: save the date. Save

00:35:46

Speaker 2: the day. I would say, Oh, sweet. And I'm gonna give so and so a call and just congratulate them and wish them well and tell them how happy I am to know them.

00:35:54

Speaker 1: Celebration conundrum. It sounds like we really like your idea and that you should run with it and that it will probably be a great a great way to really clue everybody in on what's happening. You don't Typically, we should put out there. You don't typically send save the dates for a party like this. And that's part of what makes this a slightly unusual situation. I think one thing you will want to include on that save the date is invitation to follow. Either that or what you should do is just send the invitation itself as opposed to a save the date and and let folks know we're inviting you to a party in March. But, you know, Mom and Dad are celebrating their 50th wedding anniversary in December. We know this is long in advance, but we're really hoping, um, that everyone will be able to come, you know, come march or whatever it ISS. So I think that if it has that kind of sentiment, if it has that kind of notion towards it that people will understand and it will make sense to you, To your

00:36:53

Speaker 2: group. Okay, Because we're a couple of etiquette experts doing anniversary question. I think we have to mention it.

00:36:59

Speaker 1: Oh, well, yeah, if we have to mention

00:37:01

Speaker 2: it, The 50th is a gold anniversary.

00:37:05

Speaker 1: It is the gold anniversary. The golden anniversary. Do you remember what we did for Madame Poppies? 50th anniversary. Very well. Way all went out to the C M ranch together and we had a big party, and it was their e. Think we said there an anniversary Thio Day or Oh, yeah, d'Oro because they spent a lot of time in Colombia. Andres raised some of their kids down there for a little while, so we thought it was cool toe. Do it in Spanish for them. Uh huh.

00:37:35

Speaker 2: Well, and the other thing that I remember specifically about that family gathering is that the family picture we took there was on the cover of the brand study we did with HarperCollins about Emily Post. So I I I I I looked at the image of the family from that moment nodded frequently.

00:37:52

Speaker 1: The reason I forget the image of family have them. Oh, we're all in really awkward stages. I think I had a ponytail. Dan had a massive ponytail. I think I, in every way possible, was trying to mimic older cousin Peter S o I. It was It was a really fun trip. But it's a funny photo toe. Look at for sure

00:38:16

Speaker 2: to get back to our question. I can't think about significant anniversaries and not think about that old traditional gifts for anniversaries chart. This is your would. This is your diamond

00:38:29

Speaker 1: paper anniversary and 50th is It's the

00:38:35

Speaker 2: gold one. That doesn't mean everyone has to give you gold. I really think about those anniversary present guidelines between the couple. I think that's the way people think of them. I guess the etiquette thought here is that we're broadening, um, sort of our language a little bit. We're almost thinking about a safe. The date for an anniversary party. I wouldn't start to make other jumps into wedding etiquette. There is no registry information. There is no expectation of a gift. There is no any of that. And anyway, I didn't want to start to hint at it by talking about which gifts go with which anniversaries. But it is such a traditional etiquette theme that I had to mention it.

00:39:13

Speaker 1: No, it's a very, very good point. While we are kind of jumping into that wedding invitation category by doing a save the date for this party, Uh, it will not further jump and include. Well, you wouldn't include registry information anyway, but this is not a party that you would register for. All that being said. We certainly hope that it is a party you are able tohave come March 2021 in December we will be thinking of your parents and all wishing them a very happy 50th wedding anniversary.

00:39:45

Speaker 1: Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers. Toe awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463 or reach us on social media on Twitter. We're at Emily Post Inst on instagram were at Emily Post Institute and on Facebook were awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media posts so that we know you want your question on the show. If you

00:40:15

Speaker 2: love awesome etiquette, consider becoming a sustaining member. You can find out more about this by visiting us at patryan dot com slash awesome etiquette. You'll get ads free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content. Plus, you'll feel great knowing you helped to keep awesome etiquette on the air. And to those of you who are already sustaining members, thank you for your support.

00:40:36

Speaker 1: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer in the topics we cover. And today we're hearing from Sarah from Orlando. She sent us a text message about our discussion from a few months back about deciding not to take your husband's last name and what title you choose to use as a

00:40:56

Speaker 2: woman who didn't get married until her mid thirties. I didn't feel the need to change my last name as I've been with it for so long. However, since it took me a while to find the perfect man, you better believe I am a Mrs. I've earned it.

00:41:10

Speaker 1: Smiley, baby Miami Face, I love that s

00:41:13

Speaker 2: O I am Mrs Maiden name here, and no one has ever given me a hard time about it. And I

00:41:19

Speaker 1: know

00:41:19

Speaker 2: several women who have done the same thing. I love your show, Sarah.

00:41:24

Speaker 1: Sarah, Thanks so much for writing in and for just embracing it and saying, You know, I've done this. I know it's a little different, but also nobody has given me trouble about it. And I think that's

00:41:36

Speaker 2: awesome. Nor should they. Sarah, thank you for the feedback

00:41:39

Speaker 1: with thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please keep them coming. You can send your feedback or update toe awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com or leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 k i n d. That's 8028585463

00:41:59

Speaker 2: Yeah,

00:42:05

Speaker 2: it's time for our post script segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette. And this week,

00:42:10

Speaker 1: Lizzie Post, you surprised me you did the interview with your dad

00:42:13

Speaker 2: that I was so

00:42:14

Speaker 1: hoping you would dio. That's surprising. No, it is. I remembered I was good. I did the recording last night. I went over to my folks house to make a veggie lasagna, which I have Thio Pride. Felisa came out very well. And while I was there with my folks, my dad and I sat down to talk about Emily Post.

00:42:35

Speaker 2: I can't wait to hear it.

00:42:37

Speaker 1: Dad. Thanks for sitting down with me for a minute. What was love? Having you on the podcast? Even if I remember these things late at night, I feel like you're still here owing it out, helping me with homework. So Dan and Cindy had a great conversation the other week. Sunny Quiet about Emily. And so I thought it would be really great if you and I talked a little bit about Emily. And I know that you being the youngest of the fourth generation, you might not have quite as many memories of her. But what do you if anything, remember about your great grandmother, Emily, Post my experience with Emily really revolved around our time on Martha's Vineyard with her

00:43:21

Speaker 1: and for me. At that time, I was really a five or six year old, and what I remember is two things. I remember being not introduced to her, but she would spend the morning, the days on a day bed in her office. It was a beautiful, big huge that it's oversized bed type of a thing. There's a day bed and she'd be dressed in a regular dress and clothing, not sleeping clothing. And

00:43:51

Speaker 1: when we would go to her house on Sundays for lunch, that was when I would see her. We would go into that morning room and say Hello tour and I remember being greeted by her and saying Hello tour. And it was really think about a five year old saying hello to an 80 year old grandmother. Um, there's not a lot of conversation here, stretched on a big day back there, she waas and then we would go into lunch and I do remember sitting at the table at lunch and being able to, you know, have a very it was never something that was like, structured or difficult. It was It was lunch. It was a pleasant were her great grandchildren. And so I think she just enjoyed having this there. We were not dealing with somebody. Who is this famous woman? That was the etiquette person. She was your grandmother. It was a grandmother type of person that I would be meeting. I had no concept that she was a famous person whatsoever at that time. Sure. So sure. Those are the two things I remember about her and from from family things then. Because I know you were really little when she passed. You were 10 years old, so? So you can understand not having a lot of memories of her. Do you remember anything that Poppy specifically would talk about or anything that you remember? Mud and poppy. Disgusting. Again, Those for the audience are our grandparent's bill in Libya. Post So many Emily's grandkids. E do remember so many of those things are again things that air. Familial things, not famous things. Sure, her fame wasn't what was important about her in our lives to the family. Okay, so I remember them talking about her. Um,

00:45:38

Speaker 1: it she had the most gorgeous gardens in the world. They I mean people. Still, you know, long after she died, we were taking care of those gardens and our family and our generations. People stopped by and had their pictures taken by them. I ran in one couple that would stop by every year and have their Christmas card taken from Okay, they told us that. But she loved the gardening, but she actually didn't do the gardening. Johnny knows her gardener did the did the gardening. She just said what colors to pick and stuff it outside and points of the things she wanted done. And those were the things that you know. And there was never allowed to be a red flower in this garden. If a red flower showed up, John was told, Get it out. And I remember that I remember that she was one of the other things to other things that she did. One is this that she painted furniture. You have some of the painted furniture. I just stripped down the yellow guest room furniture and and redid it finally. And it was It was hard stripping it off, and I actually realized the pain time. Stripping off is probably the paint Emily put on it. So she loved She loved doing that. And the colors were blue, like a light blue, mineral, blue and yellow. Yep. And those two, there was some red things around to. And if you go down a couple layers, there was an olive green. You're right. And the red and the blue that the blue dining room table was Those were the colors that we ended up with. And the puzzle room was great. She loved to do that. She really did love painting, t get to paint the furniture and clean up. And the other thing she loved, which was fascinating to me was she loved radios. Yes, she did. She sat up in the room upstairs and what was called the puzzle room. The room upstairs. It was a porch up on the upstairs of the house had been fully enclosed. It was a real room. It was a great room. Everybody sat, but you saw like this. It was the back wall. Had the shingles on it from where the old roof was cool. Yeah, and she apparently would sit in that room with the radio and with maps, and she would listen to a station and find out where it was, and she would note it on a map to see where she was getting a signal from. And she just loved them. She loved him so much. And this is what I really remember because I never saw that.

00:47:59

Speaker 1: I don't know if you if your listeners remember or can remember. But it used to be a long time ago that what you had was a box radio. There was an AM radio. It was not. There was no way there was no A AM radios and had a M dial

00:48:13

Speaker 2: on it. It had numbers going around. The DIA was it was

00:48:16

Speaker 1: circular diet. She had one of these types of radios in every room in the house. She would, and I remember them in that house because then we all lived in that house for the next 20 years after she died and everything. And here we were enjoying the same radios and the radios were a big and important part of the world. And of course, the puzzles and our audience has heard us talk about the puzzles, and they've they've gotten into puzzles, too, But tell me about what you remember and think about with the puzzles. The puzzles are wonderful to do, but what what is really

00:48:51

Speaker 2: fabulous about them is the history that is written on the back of the puzzle.

00:48:56

Speaker 1: Every time completed, a puzzle you wrote, who did the puzzle and the date that they did it in. Anybody who put a piece in got their name into the puzzle box on those go back to the early 19 fifties right on. But do we have Emily's actual name on any of it? I haven't seen it yet. I haven't noticed. I've only seen mud and poppies, but I want to see if Emily ever sign them. That was just mud and poppies generation. I just love it it to me that is one of the most unique things about that show a history of something. A family is really fun. So she was a fascinating woman, and she affected people in different ways and and had a tremendous impact on the world because of that famous part of it. But the familial part, I think, was remarkable and that she was truly a she really cared about and enjoy being with her family. Um, she, you know, when she moved to Martha's Vineyard first went to enter town, she stayed at the harbourside the harbor view in Sorry, Okay, just down the street from our House Street or what was our house? And she bought the house that we all grew up in because she wanted to have a place to have her grandson come and stay with her for the summers. That was part of the deal. When his parents split and palm, my grandmother agreed. My father's mother agreed that he could come and stay this summer with her, and then she was willing to buy the house on the vineyard. She really got it for him in a place for the two of them. Just think family here, okay? And that that, to me, has always been a cool part of who she waas was. Family, I think, was very, very important to her. I think so, too.

00:50:44

Speaker 1: So, speaking about family being important and this house on 34 34 Fuller Street that we all grew up in playing in and everything.

00:50:54

Speaker 1: I find it fascinating that in my immediate family my mom's family was connected to this place to because Granny Pat, my mom's mother, grew up across the street from Emily Post. And there were there were sort of cute stories within the family between the two families. Like Granny told me that one of the most shocking things about Emily Post was she was in Torrey Iss snorer, and you could hear her up and down Fuller Street snoring with the windows open. Yeah, that's true. You could you could you could hear people walking by on Fuller Street. You had some very interesting conversation. Yes. No, that I do remember in the house. And that's not as related to Emily. But, boy, sleep with your windows open people she didn't know She snores. Yeah, you know. And when when

00:51:49

Speaker 1: that family, when your grandmother, Tricia Smothers, was

00:51:54

Speaker 2: growing up across the street. When they did live in that house, you know, people were the Busses were still coming by, and the Emily Post House was quite famous, and they did. And there's a sound

00:52:04

Speaker 1: like a stop start. Even posted a whole story on it of the family across the street, the lamb boards, that was who it waas my mother's family they painted the sign Sign painting side of saying, you know, the land burns live here. Everybody talks about the post that lived across the street, but yeah, it was funny to me. It's just that for all of that kind activity, we really until I was 12 13 years old, didn't have any connection with them, you know? But then that's when we were kids off. Then Then Mom and Dad started hanging out his young teenagers. It was the kind of a prank I would have pulled e living across the street from Emily Post. Well, now you've got to tell us, Were there any rascally things that you did growing up in the Emily Post House on the Vineyard? E do remember hearing that you used to give 10 cent tours of the house until your family realized what you were. It was all of one day, e.

00:53:05

Speaker 1: You know, it was fascinating

00:53:06

Speaker 2: to sit there and listen to the things the tour bus operators would say about who lived in the house and what family was

00:53:11

Speaker 1: there Nothing to do with reality. But it was a good spiel, and you really appreciate it that that they just put something into it. They put something I'm not sure where it all came from. That was interesting. No, we used to go open the windows. Walking through a little crab apples down on the bus is when they went by. That was I always wondered what it was like being in the bus and suddenly here. But I'll tell you, they weren't allowed to do that. That was not meant to do that. Carried through the generations because I heard that story being a mischievous child. Beazer Phillips and I went up there and through crab apples down at the street and the woman who lived in the lamb burns house at the time. Now, obviously not our family. The lamb burns came out and said this. He post you come down here and clean up these apples that you smashed on the street. You do not throw things up from the widow's walk. I got in so much trouble from a stranger I didn't know. But very cool. Dad, Thank you so much for taking the time to share some Emily memories, both for our own family archive and for our awesome etiquette audience. Thio indulgent. I really appreciate it. You're welcome.

00:54:21

Speaker 1: Try to think up new ways you can help your family and ask your mother and father about them. They'll be glad that you want to do something that proves how much you love them and appreciate all the things they do for you.

00:54:36

Speaker 1: We like to end the show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world, and that can come in so many forms. Dan, who is our salute from today? Today we have

00:54:48

Speaker 2: an email from Kristen.

00:54:51

Speaker 2: She begins today. I'm using one of my favorite podcast to salute another of my favorite podcasts. The history Chicks. The host, Susan and Beckett are always very respectful of the women they profile, even if they sometimes have Ah, Lizzie esque cheekiness. Their podcast is very inclusive, and although they're always discreet, they're careful toe warn listeners In the beginning, if there is content that might be inappropriate for little ears, I appreciate their wonderful style of bringing fascinating women from history toe life, many of which I've never heard of before. Also, to my pleasant surprise as I was looking my way through their back catalog. I discovered that episode 91 is devoted to Emily Post. Also, she is frequently mentioned in later episodes related to women from the same era. At the end of Emily's episode, when they list re sources and media related to the subject, they highlight both the Emily Post Institute as well as the awesome etiquette podcast. So a big thank you to the hosts of the history Chicks for providing an entertaining and educational podcast. And I hope the listeners of awesome etiquette can enjoy learning mawr about Emily Post as much as I did. Kristen, Kristen, thank you so much for this salute. This is awesome. This is history and etiquette and thanks and gratitude, all of my favorite things wrapped up in one. I remember the episode of the history Shakes that you're talking about. I think it's excellent. Thank you for bringing it to our attention one more time,

00:56:22

Speaker 2: E.

00:56:24

Speaker 1: And thank you for listening. Thank you to everyone who sent us something and thank you to everyone who supports us on Patryan.

00:56:32

Speaker 2: Please connect with us and share this show with friends, family and co workers. However, you like to share podcasts,

00:56:38

Speaker 1: you can send us questions, feedback and salutes by email. Toe awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com by phone. You can leave us a message or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463

00:56:52

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00:56:53

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00:56:57

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00:56:57

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00:57:01

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00:57:15

Speaker 2: Our show is edited by Chris Albertine, an assistant produced by Brigitte Dowd.

00:57:19

Speaker 1: Thanks, Brigitte. Yeah.