Episode 317 - Speeding Ticket

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social courtesy that's old fashioned.

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Speaker 1: Watch how

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Speaker 2: busy post and damn posts and act as host and hostess.

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Speaker 2: They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person. Really. Friendliness. Hello

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Speaker 1: and welcome toe Awesome etiquette,

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Speaker 2: where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. On

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Speaker 1: today's show, we take your questions on throwing gifts away, getting a speeding ticket with friends, a messy mask situation and guests who offer to bring something to dinner.

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Speaker 2: Poor awesome etiquette sustaining members. Our question of the week is about re posting your registry when you're already married, plus your

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Speaker 1: most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a postscript where we discuss five tips for a good

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Speaker 2: apology. All that coming up

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Speaker 1: Awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute. I'm Lizzie Post

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Speaker 2: and I'm Dan Post Senning,

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Speaker 1: and you're not just Dan post setting today, your damn post setting, plus some grand parents

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Speaker 2: there is a Nana and a nanny in the house on. My girls could not be happier

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Speaker 1: e think that the parents could also not be happier if I'm correct, right?

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Speaker 2: I've gotten so that I definitely don't just enjoy these visits, but lean on them. They're so, so nice.

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Speaker 1: Totally to full extra set of hands. I mean, I know it in in my own family. I know how much it helps with the with the youngsters that we have. And I know I know it helps in yours, too. But it's also such a great time and such a classic time of year in Vermont to host houseguests. And so I know that it can feel a little different during covet. And I know you and your family have taken precautions to make this a safe visit. But what what are some of the things that you prepare for right now? I mean, it's fallen Vermont. What do you like? What are you going to try to do to show people a good time?

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Speaker 2: Well, I guess the first thing to acknowledge is how easy it was to get the Yes, on the visit.

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Speaker 2: Totally. This was 100% pooches idea. I have been doing a lot of Emily Post work on the weekends and she made this discovery, this transition in her mind, where she said to herself, You know, visits to my parents or my parents here doesn't take energy. It gives me energy because I get so much help with the girls. And the girls love their grand parents. They love pooches, parents so much. And Aria is on a full on campaign toe. Win her grandfather's affection forever.

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Speaker 1: E feel like she doesn't quite realize that already happened in her life. Oh, she's so successful, born and like the most enchanting baby ever. Nana,

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Speaker 2: Nana, Nana. And if he tries to put her down? No, it's phenomenal,

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Speaker 2: slightly longer version of the story just to bring everyone up to speed. Who's listening right now? At about the same minute that Lizzie and I were scheduled to sit down and start recording this podcast, the grand parents arrived and they were expected. This was an anticipated arrival moment, but

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Speaker 1: we knew they were

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Speaker 2: in the main floor of the house. Just above me are for five very excited people who are doing their absolute best to keep the volume and the general ruckus to a minimum right now, which I so appreciate,

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Speaker 1: but you have an interesting type of house guesting going on because you have switched your schedule. So you're working weekends, and that means that you've got visitors while you're working. And that's an interesting place to be for a host and etiquette because you're both trying to carve out the space that you need to occupy and are choosing to occupy, and that they're being there helps you occupy. But you also have family up who's visiting. You wanna be a gracious host. You wanna make them feel welcome. Do you wanna be a part of it? You know, So tell me a little bit how you're balancing it from From that kind of good Dan etiquette standpoint,

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Speaker 2: you have no idea what an insightful thought that ISS I can't even tell

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Speaker 1: you. Do you feel seen Dan? Do you feel understood? I feel understood. Good. I'm glad

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Speaker 2: Alka came through the door. That's Pooja's mother, and almost the first thing she said to me, Oh, it's so good to see big hugs. A.

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Speaker 2: And I really hope that you will come visit us next weekend, she says. Very light touch on that by, you know, us being here and maybe staying through Monday. Thio even add another full work day. That's usually a day where I'm watching the girls that will free up some time for you so you can come to the bigger family weekend that's planned for next weekend. There was a a keen awareness of exactly the balance that you're talking about and very fair bargain being struck right off the bat that we're here to help. You know, excuse yourself, make it

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Speaker 1: easy. And the thing that I would like in return for that is maybe that could

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Speaker 2: set us up to spend some family time together next weekend, and you could really participate.

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Speaker 1: So eso weight was the announcing that on the show your way of trying to say so. Liz, can I get your buy in for a switch out of schedules and Dick next weekend off? Okay, so there's

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Speaker 2: all kinds of balance is being struck

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Speaker 1: here on it's unfolding in real time. E. Love it. I love it. This is this is how we work.

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Speaker 2: And I appreciate it. And I appreciate the flexibility that I get in the professional side of my life. And on the personal side, of my life and you would ask that question about, you know, how do you work that and it

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Speaker 1: balance it as a host.

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Speaker 2: It's so much easier when everybody is aware of all of those things that you are balancing. And I credit my wife with being a good communicator, with talking to her parents very clearly and setting expectations for these visits and for having discussions when I'm not there about why I'm not there, that

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Speaker 2: leave me understood and feeling like I'm presented the way I would want to present myself if I were responsible for communicating all that.

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Speaker 2: I.

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Speaker 2: I love my wife love my family, loved my

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Speaker 1: work and my lucky is this good? I think it is. I think it is. I think I think everyone's drooling right now. No, I do think it's important and I think you hit the nail on the head. That communication is the thing that makes that balance happen. You hear us talk about it, audience in in our episodes all the time, that speaking up about something, letting everyone know almost like the opening stage of our five steps, where you're sort of looking at all the solutions and options. It's really good when you've got a group of people coming together to discuss all the all the options are all the things, all the parts and pieces that are on the table. You know whether or not Mom and Dad are trying to get out quickly on Monday, or whether or not maybe they could linger till Tuesday. Or, you know what? What, how hard Dan has to be working. Is this a He's going to join us for meals or he's going to be skipping and just joining us a dinner time. Or I think it's It's so important to lay it all out there. And I was. I'm very glad that you came up with communication as the key to that answer. I think it's brilliant, and I think it's also really true in your situation. It is how it works. Pooja is a great communicator.

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Speaker 2: She is on. Uh,

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Speaker 2: it also helps when you have an ace in the hole on adorably cute one year old who's who's working. All the levers of power that she has at her disposal is,

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Speaker 1: well, a SSM Well, let's let's get to some questions so that we can get you on the way to some family time. How's that

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Speaker 2: sound? Let's do it.

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Speaker 1: Awesome Etiquette is here to answer your questions, and you can email them toe awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. Leave a voicemail or text at 802858 kind That's

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Speaker 2: 8028585463 or reach us on social media on Twitter. We're at Emily Post. Inst

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Speaker 1: on instagram were at Emily Post Institute and on Facebook were awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media posts so we

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Speaker 2: know you want your question on the show.

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Speaker 2: Our first question this week is a tough one, and it's about gifts in the garbage. Hey, Lizzie and Dan, your podcast has brought me happiness and normalcy this year. Thank you. I appreciate the nuance you bring to your questions. I'll get right to mine. Is it rude to throw away a gift for context? My husband and I are not religious. Our families know this but still gift US religious items. They sent books referencing their religion and how it's right to our Children. For birthdays and holidays. We want to present a variety of faiths to our Children on our own terms. For now, I've just been stashing these in closets, but it's become frustrating to take up our limited storage space for books we won't ever read. Um, I okay, to toss these items after a genuine thank you is my Thank you. Really? Even genuine is a parenthetical question. It also doesn't seem fair that I have to donate these two goodwill. No parent needs another errand, so I'm hoping for other advice. I'd love your approval to toss these items. Sincerely, Sarah ps. I would ordinarily never throw away a book, but this feels different.

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Speaker 1: Oh, Sarah, I Well, on the one hand, I think you you know, our shows. So you have heard our advice because you've been asking for other advice. But you did kind of suggest the thing that we would suggest, Which is to say thank you. And it is that kind of thank you. Where you you write. How genuine does it feel? Um, if it feels like disposing of the item is a chore in and of itself. And that's where you know, we've talked about gifts before and we've had conversations about unwanted gifts and whether or not to broach that subject with someone or to deal with it by just simply saying thank you and disposing of the item or choosing to move it on in a direction that you feel positive about my being the soft way to put it. And I think that it sounds to me like you're leaning in the category of I'm fine disposing this item. I wonder if it's time for you to have a conversation with family about about the types of gifts that feel like comfortable gifts to receive. My thought had been to keep the versions of these books that allow you to do what you said you wanted to do, which was to present different religions. But if these books aren't lining up in that category for how you would choose to present a multitude of religions to your Children, then they aren't. You know, the useful books for their development and just kind of like any book that you would get that you're kind of like and my kid wasn't into it or we never really decided to read it. Then you you pass it along Dan, what do you think about the I want to throw it out rather than donated. The donating seems like a chore. What do you think about that? Oh, Lizzie

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Speaker 2: Post, you threw me. What for me is the hardest part of this question.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, and that's because I don't have

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Speaker 2: a clear etiquette answer in my show. Notes. I said, Ah, stuff Marie Condo Because figuring out how to deal with stuff is a major issue for a lot of people. And your relationship to those physical things that accrue in your life is

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Speaker 2: something of significance, that there are our experts, subject matter, experts that talk about that. And to me, it's less of an etiquette question. Um, how you feel about how you dispose of stuff and Putin and I have these discussions all the time about the recycling bin at our house and how careful we are about being sure that everything that moves through us is either reused or repurposed, and to what extent that to draw on us the communication around that is an etiquette question. But the decision itself, I think, is based on things that aren't usually the relevant themes for this podcast,

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Speaker 1: right? It's not that they aren't relevant to our lives, but there it's just not always are

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Speaker 2: subject matter exactly, and you're right. The idea of donating so that things aren't wasted is something that we do often suggest. It's a middle ground that many people are comfortable with. But if it doesn't work for you, that za choice that I think you get to make to me that there are three very clear etiquette areas on this question that all have

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Speaker 2: answers, I feel more comfortable giving. And the first is the thank you and how genuine the thank you is. And I think that's one that you just have to work on from your own perspective. You have to thank people for the effort for the thought for being there for you, for participating in whatever event or occasion that gift was given for. Even if you're not thanking for the particular gift itself and I do think there are genuine places you can operate from and do that well,

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Speaker 2: it can be confusing because that could get tied up with the two other big ticket issues that you talked about right at the start and one has to do with parents setting boundaries around their kids

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Speaker 2: and whether it's Disney princesses or exposure to religion or just commercial advertising.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all kinds of stuff.

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Speaker 2: Parents have to make all kinds of decisions about what kinds of exposure their kids get. When and the good etiquette there is that you communicate clearly with other people about those boundaries because it helps them. And it could be hard to separate that conversation from the other real clear etiquette issue for me here, which is how we talk about religion and our relationship and orientation to faith with each other, particularly when we don't agree. And

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Speaker 2: it could be hard to separate those things out. But I do think as a parent making choices for your kids that are going to impact other people on their choices. That would be the point of access that I would look for

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Speaker 2: to address this in a way that's looking ahead that's trying to anticipate the situation and find a good resolution. Maybe there are

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Speaker 2: gifts that have a religious tone or theme, but that fall into that category that you mentioned where it would be unacceptable exposure to you as a parent, someone who's wanting to expose your kids to multiple faiths.

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Speaker 2: I could see how that could be difficult because it could very easily get into the quality or the nature of the religious information that's being gifted to the kids. And

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Speaker 2: I would be prepared toe communicate clearly about that as well. But I would keep

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Speaker 2: trying to re center that conversation, as I was preparing toe have it, and I was having it on

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Speaker 2: the specific boundaries that you have for your kids.

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Speaker 1: You know, Dan, I have to say the more I listen, Thio, you answer this question the more I really lean in the direction of. I think Sarah's ready for a conversation. It sounds like almost like no matter how we're dealing with this item, there's some conflict with it having to say thank you for it when you don't really feel thankful for it. And I love your well, your advice are classic advice of, you know, really trying to find ways to appreciate the gesture and not the item, but it seems like a chore to have to go bring it to donate it. But at the same time, the PS I would never ordinarily throw away a book, you know, but this is a night, um, I don't want It's not in the options that I would like to be exposing my Children to for religions of the world. Um, it's not something I want to be receiving and getting it. Those are all things Sarah that that rather than the approval to throw the items out, I think you might. I don't know if you need it, but I would love toe, offer the encouragement. Thio have the conversation that helps stop the items from coming in to begin with. And I don't know if you've already had that, and that's why we're in this situation. But that's probably where I would be leaning as I as I really read through this, I think there's

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Speaker 2: something to that because what I read in the question is that there's been a previous discussion about religion, but not necessarily about religious gifts for kids. And it might be that it's time to have that discussion as opposed to leaning on the previous discussions about religion in general and really focusing it in this specific area.

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Speaker 1: Sarah. We hope that it can help make gift giving and receiving a happier experience. How do you go about being thoughtful? What you doing every time I try only make things worse? Is there some particular method of being thoughtful that works every time?

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Speaker 1: This question is titled Ticketed Together Dear Emily Post Institute. My friend was on a road trip with her friends and was driving when she got a speeding ticket. My husband's friends say that she and her friend should split the cost of the speeding ticket as they were all on the road trip together. They disagree in this matter, as it was she that was driving and it was her decision making that got her into this predicament. I would like to know what your views are in this matter. Thank you Sincerely, Francis Francis, thank you

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Speaker 2: so much for this question, and I want to tell everybody Lizzie and I have not discussed this question ahead of time. I'm so curious what your answer is going to be, because my instant immediate reaction is you've got to be kidding me. There's no way you split this Sweeting ticket and then I start. Think of the ways in the circumstances where I might, But generally speaking, no, you're responsible. You made the choice. You're sitting behind the wheel. You are responsible. That is your

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Speaker 1: speaking. You got to show him your imagination. His show notes say, unless I mean, like, they were all speeding and egging or on, and it was like a thing. It's like you start painting this whole like a scenario where Okay, maybe it could have gone down and everyone was in on it. Now they're telling her she should just pay it, But really, they were helping the situation on my my reaction. Was this really an etiquette question? And I think there is a little a little bit of etiquette is very much so in the pain of who pays. We're all doing something together and a cost gets incurred on the doing something together. Who should pay for it. I

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Speaker 2: can see that perspective,

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Speaker 1: and from that standpoint, it's very much so in etiquette question. But originally I was like, Really? Is this what's coming in right now? But I do think that Francis is right. I think that unless there was some kind of a group encouragement of the speeding, you know, whether that was We're late. We're late. You've really got to get us there, you know? Or if it was straight up, you know, pedal to the floor, Betty, make it happen. And even

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Speaker 2: then, I think Betty bears some responsibility.

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Speaker 2: Owning the foot presses the pedal for

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Speaker 1: owning the foot, the president, the pedal. And and that's what the officers would say in handing her the ticket. You know, um but I think that I am with Dan I'm very

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Speaker 2: much so in the same same boat is because I think she speeds. She

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Speaker 1: pays. Whoever's doing the driving is is the responsible one. Be nice for friends to chip in. I was just thinking, Let's give a shit, like right. I could hear friends doing that, you know?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. Absolutely. And it would be a sweet gesture toe offer to chip in particularly felt some responsibility for that shared cost may be It was a discussion about how late everyone was. Or maybe it was just how appreciative you are that you didn't have to drive on this trip. Maybe there had been some discussion about how maney drivers to put on the rental car or something like that

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Speaker 1: Maybe you were the one who was late getting out the front door and feel a little guilty that the driver was a little rushed. Even

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Speaker 2: better example than the ones I was thinking of. But

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Speaker 1: if those things inspired you toe offer to help pay,

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Speaker 2: I don't think there's anything wrong with that. In fact, I think it's a really sweet gesture, and because it would be in no way expected. I could see it being good etiquette. But it's not expected.

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Speaker 1: Francis. We hope that that helps. And thanks for giving us a delicious little scene to dish on.

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Speaker 2: So I was getting my first ticket in the city. Didn't impress me much, but this was a different kind of a ticket. Well,

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Speaker 1: I had to go to court, all right, But that wasn't you, but this court was held right in the sky. Cool. On the judge and jury in the whole court where girls and fellas like myself. How about that? I didn't dig it

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Speaker 2: it all.

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Speaker 2: Our next question is about a messy mask situation. Hi, Lizzie and Dan. You're sensible advice would be most welcome with a tricky situation. I am experiencing with my hairdresser. I've been going to her for nearly 20 years, ever since I moved to Vermont. She is wonderful, personable and works alone in her salon in her house. I have had two haircuts since our governor gave the okay in June, hairdressers and barbers were given specific guidelines for operation. My concern is the mask issue, she has said. She finds them uncomfortable, so she wears a thin neck gator. I can see her features through it. She also talks as she stands over me and shampoos. My hair. She has a child who's attending school in person and a boyfriend she sees regularly despite Cove in 19 numbers. Being very low in our state, All this has made me most uncomfortable. I was thinking that on my next visit I would tuck in an envelope several of the light blue face masks that dentists use, the ones with bendable nose pieces. I have found them quite comfortable and good toe wear when visiting and chatting. Would it be appropriate to say to her that since she mentions, she finds masks uncomfortable, she might find these work nicely. Stay in place and you almost forget you're wearing them. Thank you so much for your guidance. Best wishes. Madeline.

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Speaker 1: Oh, Madeleine, It's always so tough When and this is I feel like what it was like. The question of co vid, I feel like, was just how do you let someone know that their choice of keeping safe is making you uncomfortable? And e. I think it is really tough. But I think rather than just slip in the masks and the positive conversation about maybe wearing them, that you actually address the issue head on with your stylist and what do you think?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. And I would give as much prep time as possible. I would, um, make the call independent or ahead of the next visit

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Speaker 1: like that, like, not like right when you first get there and start the appointment, but ahead of it

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Speaker 2: exactly. And I would put that whole conversation in the context. I would approach it from a perspective of These are the things that make me feel really safe as a customer, as a patron, and

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Speaker 2: and that's where I would I would start the conversation and I'd be ready to listen. I would also have those suggestions or those offers ready and at my disposal, but I would I would absolutely have the conversation. I would have it in the context of what would make you feel safe as a customer.

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Speaker 1: I think so, too. And I could understand feeling a little awkward that you've already been through one session with her. But I think that you can always frame it. As you know, I'm really trying to still stay vigilant. You could also let her know that you did have some concerns about last time, and you were hoping that you might talk with her about a couple strategies Thio make this time feel a little more comfortable and ask her if she's willing to listen to them or willing to talk with you about them. You know, Dan always has the great line about asking permission to have that conversation, and I'm always big on the kind of, uh, presenting your emotions. Maybe that's just the years of therapy, but kind of stating where you're at. And so for me, I can feel myself just wanting to let someone know that you know, I was e don't want to frame it like this. I wouldn't actually say to the person You know, I gave you the benefit of the doubt the first time, but I was really upset with how it went. I don't think you wanted to have that tone. I think like Dan says just saying like I would be more comfortable, Um, or I've noticed. I've for indoor interactions I'm really comfortable with with a full mask. And one of the things that I think is a little tricky about this one that Madeline is dealing with Dan is that she does wear the hairdresser does wear the gator, the thin neck gator. But it was really thin. And you're asking. You're basically trying to find a way to let someone know that their method that they are engaging with isn't quite up to where you feel comfortable. And I do think that's a that's a tough thing. It's not like there just not wearing anything, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's tough. And as you said right at the start, this is the etiquette of our time right now that our standards for these things are shifting and moving all the time. Dr. Anthony Fauci wasn't recommending masks before he was recommending mass because it does that mean he doesn't know what he's talking about.

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Speaker 2: To me, it means that as information changes, it's up to us to change and evolve. And I would have been surprised by that detail in this question if I hadn't heard just earlier this week from some public health experts that I really respect, that some of the bandannas and neck gaiters just don't work as effectively and that people are starting to be more aware of this. So I'm not surprised to hear a question about that. And

00:26:08

Speaker 1: I had heard that, too.

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Speaker 1: Did you hear that one of the tests was Can you blow a candle out through it? And I don't I don't know how verified that was. It was one of the examples that they gave but Dan even bringing up something that way where you said, Boy, you know, I learned after our last appointment that some types of mass or better than others and I I did have some concerns and was just wondering if I brought you a comfortable mask. If you'd be willing to wear a full mask this time, a more solid mask this

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Speaker 2: time. To me, that sounds reasonable, and again I would use all of that language. I would take responsibility for my own feelings. I would be more comfortable if you'd be willing to do this. You can, um, make explicit your good intentions and your understanding of other perspectives. So language like I really like and appreciate your business. Or, um, I know rates are relatively low in our community right now. Even just sort of talking about that and making those allowances can help someone

00:27:11

Speaker 2: see that you understand maybe where they're coming from where their perspective and that it's not up to them to explain all that to you but just to hear you. And it could be really helpful in that conversation to do that. And the final thought that I have on that discussion is that it doesn't need to be annul. Tomate, Um, but having the idea in your mind that if someone's really not willing to compromise and meet you in a place that'll make you feel comfortable, it is a choice that you can make to not patronize that business or find someone else who does. And just knowing that in your mind, I wouldn't wield that in the conversation, but it might help

00:27:50

Speaker 2: take the stakes down a little bit and make it easier to have that conversation.

00:27:54

Speaker 1: I find that knowing that I haven't out knowing that I haven't no, that's okay for me to deliver always somehow makes me feel a lot more confident, saying yes and engaging. And I think that that could be really, really useful in this situation. And I've got to say it is. It is tough in Vermont. We do have really good numbers and and we have been very lucky to do what we can. But it doesn't mean that it's completely gone. And so it's a tough space to be in because you are kind of wondering Well, is it here? Is it not where are we still, But we're still under a state of emergency and I think we still all really have to be doing these practices so continuing to find ways to be comfortable setting our boundaries, to be confident, setting our boundaries and to be respectful when sending our boundaries. I would probably also add compassionate could add a lot of words is we go down this list, but I think these air all still really important things for us to be doing now. Um, really, No. No matter what state you are in,

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Speaker 2: it is a difficulty that emerges in a way that's counterintuitive, that in some ways the relative safety of the situation makes it harder to take safety precautions that keep everyone relatively safe. Exactly. And in an environment where there are so many questions like that, as a business owner, I would really appreciate knowing exactly what makes my customers feel comfortable and confident coming to my business. So that's another sort of thing that I would keep in mind. As I thought about reasons to have this conversation. I think that there are a lot of benefits to be gained on all sides.

00:29:27

Speaker 1: Madeleine, thank you so much for the question, and we hope that you're able to get

00:29:31

Speaker 2: a fabulous haircut,

00:29:34

Speaker 2: learn the rules of safe conduct and apply them. Yours is the safest job in the world. If you use your heads, it's up to you.

00:29:46

Speaker 2: If

00:29:46

Speaker 1: you love

00:29:47

Speaker 2: being part of the awesome etiquette community and want to join in, there are so many great ways to help your favorite podcast for awesome etiquette. We know that there are a few things that you can do that really help our show. One is to become a sustaining member. You can find out more about this at patryan dot com slash awesome etiquette. Another is to engage with our show sponsors and their special offers. If you hear about a product that you like and you feel inspired to try it, definitely remember to use that promo code that we give you on the show. It helps those sponsors identify where you're coming from. Also, don't forget that sending us your questions, your feedback, your salutes is critically important. The fresh content that you provide really keeps this show relevant,

00:30:31

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00:31:04

Speaker 1: Our next question is titled Food With Friends.

00:31:08

Speaker 1: Hello, Lizzie and Dan. I recently had two friends over to my house for lunch. Let's call them Monica and Phoebe. Anybody getting the joke now?

00:31:19

Speaker 1: The invite was very casual. Sent by email to both at the same time, Monica replied first to me only the email and asked what she could bring for the record in the invitation. I did not ask for either of them to bring anything towards the meal. I was fully prepared to provide everything, however, when a guest will offer to bring something I generally don't refuse. So Phoebe replied later that she would love to come

00:31:46

Speaker 1: on the day of the lunch. Phoebe was a little defensive when she saw that Monica brought a food item and said she would have also brought something Had I told her what to bring. I did not want to embarrass Phoebe by saying that Monica offered, so I tried to tactfully change the subject. Is there a graceful way to avoid being in this situation in the future. Should I refused the offer of my guests to bring something for the table? It is my first reaction when I receive an invitation to ask what I could bring. Because I know that hosting could be an undertaking. And a little extra help can go a long way. Any guidance that you could provide for the future would be most welcome. Kind regards Anonymous. And by anonymous, I think she means Rachel Green.

00:32:30

Speaker 2: Guilty confession. I completely missed that. Phoebe Monica friend reference.

00:32:34

Speaker 1: I just read the question. I was like a Monica and

00:32:37

Speaker 2: Phoebe. I did not.

00:32:38

Speaker 1: Phoebe, come on. Thank

00:32:41

Speaker 2: you. Because I appreciate your cultural literacy

00:32:44

Speaker 1: Anonymous. I love this. Thank you so much. It was a huge friends fan, even though some of it doesn't quite translate nowadays. But that was that was quite fun to read. Okay, well, I also loved this question. Not even knowing that super Lind shit etiquette question and and like, I know how the conversation I've been. I've been Phoebe, I've been Monica. I've been the host. I've been everybody in this situation, but I love how the detail for the future really made me have to think, How would you handle this? To try to prevent this very thing from happening?

00:33:21

Speaker 1: I don't know if you can. I think you're right.

00:33:24

Speaker 2: I don't think anonymous. Rachel did anything wrong here, and as I was listening to, you read it the first moment. My little Oh, that's a little rude. Antenna went up. Was the friend in her moment of defensiveness, saying, You as a host should have told me what to bring eso? I wouldn't feel inadequate here, and I

00:33:47

Speaker 1: don't think that's exactly what she said, but because I could picture how this gets said. But you keep going. No, it's not. It's

00:33:53

Speaker 2: not. Those aren't the words, but that's the moment

00:33:56

Speaker 1: Dan makes it sound down Near Vicious.

00:34:01

Speaker 1: And I I don't

00:34:02

Speaker 2: know if you can live your wife, anticipating a rude reaction to things and preventing anyone from ever having that feeling and

00:34:10

Speaker 1: e think it would be hard or other, or we wouldn't need continued books on etiquette. We just have the answer. How to prevent that from ever

00:34:19

Speaker 2: happening. I do think there's a question of emphasis that really does matter here, that if you're presented the dish or the offering for the gathering and you're doing and I ng and gushing and making ah big deal out of it in front of someone who didn't do the same thing, that there could be a question there that that's rude. At a three person gathering, I can see how, no matter how you handled it, it could be something that the third party or the other party would pick up on. And there might not be a tactful way to both receive that gift well and keep receiving it from being noticed by the other people present.

00:35:01

Speaker 1: And I don't think that Rachel was in a great position once Monica had offered Thio to bring something to then mentioned to Phoebe. By the way, Monica offered to bring a dish. I think that that especially when she's not looking to have the guests bring dishes, then it would be kind of awkward to be like, Yes, so the other guest is bringing a dish if you wanted to, but you don't have thio. It does kind of create that feeling of Oh well, if everyone is, bring when I should bring 12 and that would happen if you tried. Thio head it off in the early stages and and Warren Phoebe that, you know Monica was bringing a dish. Or it would happen in this situation where Phoebe shows up and feels a little like, Hey, I would have brought something had I known I just didn't know I should have offered, you know? And here's the difference is you've got one friend who receives an invitation, sees that it doesn't have anything requesting anything of her on it, and she just says That would be awesome. Thanks so much. Can't wait. There's nothing wrong with that. But you've got the other friend who says That would be awesome. Can't wait. Can I bring anything?

00:36:11

Speaker 1: And it automatically gonna makes Phoebe look like she's not quite as invested or thoughtful or something when that's not true, necessarily. Is it? Is it true, is it? I

00:36:19

Speaker 2: don't think it's true. No, I think you're getting right at the heart of the matter, and that's it. That that isn't an expectation. And the confusion here comes from where the awkwardness comes from that moment where Phoebe feels bad that she didn't offer, and I just don't think that's up to Rachel to manage that I would encourage. In some ways, my etiquette advice here is for Phoebe, which is don't feel guilty about what? You didn't do that if you learned something in this moment that oh, some people when they get an invitation, asked if they could bring anything almost as a matter of

00:36:55

Speaker 1: course. And some hosts don't always ask you. That's the other part of it, right hosts. Don't always ask you to bring something.

00:37:02

Speaker 2: Nope. And if you like that exchange or the way that worked for that other person, that's a little learning moment where you

00:37:07

Speaker 1: say, Oh, I could do

00:37:08

Speaker 2: that in the future. Or if you don't don't feel bad about not

00:37:12

Speaker 1: bringing something

00:37:14

Speaker 1: here is the place where I think you could have some advice for anonymous should, because we've basically told anonymous you can't really have this one off of the past too easily. So I then focus on the moment where you realize Phoebe feels bad. And that's where my brain says that as soon as Phoebe pipes up, we throw some heavy, heavy reassurance on Phoebe. Phoebe. No, my intention was not toe. Have anyone bring anything? I was so glad that You just said Yes. Monica had. This is the place where, I don't know. You make the choice. Whether you throw Monica out there, I don't necessarily think it's bad to do it. Monica just made the offer the way people casually do sometimes. And I decided what the heck I'd say. Yes, but I had totally planned on serving everything. Don't worry about it.

00:37:59

Speaker 2: The gift for me is your presence here today. Are

00:38:03

Speaker 1: you sure you have some wine?

00:38:07

Speaker 2: There we go. But no, you're right. It's that tone that moment that seizing the opportunity is a host to tell your guests. No, you did nothing wrong. You're meeting every expectation I had of you. The worst thing that could happen in this moment I wouldn't say it like this is for you to feel bad about something you didn't dio. And but that's what you're trying to communicate.

00:38:28

Speaker 1: Anonymous. Rachel, this is going down, as I think, one of our best etiquette questions ever. Because almost unsolvable in terms of how to head it off from a future standpoint and yet a true moment of etiquette and trying to figure out the right thing to dio and and how to protect your guests and make

00:38:49

Speaker 2: them feel good. There's just so much good stuff in here. Anonymous. Rachel, thank you so much for this delicious etiquette question, and we hope that this helps you have great relationships with your friends moving forward.

00:39:01

Speaker 2: Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers. Toe awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463 You can also reach us on social media on Twitter. We're at Emily Post Inst on instagram were at Emily Post Institute on on Facebook. We are awesome etiquette. Just remember to use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the show.

00:39:33

Speaker 1: If you are loving awesome etiquette, please consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting us at patryan dot com slash awesome etiquette. You'll get an awesome ads free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content. Plus, you're gonna feel great knowing that you helped to keep awesome etiquette on the air. And to those of you who are already sustaining members, thank you so much for your support.

00:40:00

Speaker 1: It's

00:40:00

Speaker 2: time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer and the topics we cover.

00:40:05

Speaker 1: And today we

00:40:06

Speaker 2: hear from Mary. This is feedback that came via Facebook.

00:40:10

Speaker 2: I

00:40:10

Speaker 1: listen to the

00:40:11

Speaker 2: latest episode and the discussion of pronouns. It lacked the singular use of they them. Someone who has declared herself to be non binary wrote She prefers they them in reference to herself, them self. Mary, Mary, thank you so much. I was re listening to our answer on this question, and I was really disappointed in myself that I didn't give a they them example. So thank you for including it in some feedback and giving us the opportunity to do that.

00:40:37

Speaker 1: Now we'll hear from Amanda on episode 3 16 and the question about feeling underdressed at a family event. Hello,

00:40:44

Speaker 2: Lizzie and Dan. I truly enjoy your podcast and appreciate it. Hello, Lizzie and Dan. I truly enjoy your podcast and appreciate that it comes every week, no matter what. You addressed a question about a party guest who did not dress appropriately for the occasion and engaged in freestyle dancing. You suggested that if she was close to the upset relative, she could apologize for her actions or discussed the issue. I have to disagree. I would not be surprised if this were a male family member who felt entitled to judge a younger female member of the family. Women apologize too much. This woman should not have to apologize to anyone for the way she dressed or danced. She was not wearing jeans to a black tie event. She was not stage diving. If anyone should apologize, it should be this relative for making her feel uncomfortable in her own skin. It is the height of decorum to make those around you feel comfortable not to chastise them for enjoying a moment. Kind regards. Amanda

00:41:40

Speaker 1: Amanda, Thank you for bringing up this point.

00:41:43

Speaker 2: It's absolutely important, and I wanna invite you to stick or brown for the post script, where we're gonna be talking about the elements that make a good apology and looking at how we issue apologies effectively and when it's appropriate. This is certainly an interesting issue that you bring up. Thank you for the feedback

00:42:01

Speaker 1: and thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please keep them coming. You can send your feedback or update toe awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com or leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463

00:42:17

Speaker 1: It's time for our post script segment, where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette, and this week we have another spin on good apologies, and I like this one because it's going to make you

00:42:27

Speaker 2: think. And I wanna promise our listeners that this postscript did not emerge as a response to our feedback. This was something we had been thinking about and in

00:42:37

Speaker 1: many ways

00:42:37

Speaker 2: addresses the question of when is an apology appropriate and when it is appropriate. What are the elements of a really good apology? Our source material for the postscript this week is an article that was published in psychology today about how apologies function and that offers some tips on how to do them well. So we're going to use that as a jumping off point for our discussion. For those of you that are patrons, subscribers that air sustaining members of the show. We will put a link in the comments section for the show. And for those of you that aren't sustaining members, you can look at the awesome etiquette Facebook page for the link. The title of the article are the five ingredients of an effective apology on psychology today.

00:43:21

Speaker 2: The article begins with a look at where apologies come from and how their most effectively delivered. And the essential question that the article asks is is the purpose of the apology to make you feel better or make someone else feel better? And the apologies that air issued Thio relieve a feeling of guilt where the ultimate idea is that doing the apology is gonna make you feel better? You're setting yourself up potentially for an apology that doesn't come across as appropriately sincere or authentic because it's not centered on the person who's been hurt or wronged. So I think the first real challenge question to ask yourself when you're thinking about apologies is a nap location of honesty where you say to yourself, What is this apology in service off? And if it's in service of the relationship, how doe I make the center of that apology the other person or the person who was wrong, in some sense, by my behavior. The article continues, with then five suggested elements that make a really good apology. These aren't the elements that we have taught for years that the Emily Post Institute, but they speak to a lot of the ways we talk about a sincere apology being constructed. Element one is a clear I'm sorry statement

00:44:41

Speaker 2: element to is an expression of regret for what happened. Third comes an acknowledgement of the social norms or expectations that were violated. This is followed by an empathy statement acknowledging the impact of our actions on the other person. And then the concluding final fifth step is a request for forgiveness. So the example scenario that is mapped out in this article is someone who was invited to a birthday party said they would attend and then just doesn't go, but hasn't told the hosts, and they wake up the next day feeling bad about it.

00:45:16

Speaker 2: So those five elements applied to an apology delivered in this scenario might sound something like this.

00:45:25

Speaker 2: I am so incredibly sorry I didn't make it to your birthday party last night. I had a terrible day. I was in such a bad mood and I just went to bed. There's no excuse for not showing up, and particularly for not calling to tell you I wasn't coming.

00:45:39

Speaker 2: I can only imagine how upset, disappointed or angry you must feel.

00:45:45

Speaker 2: I know it might take a while, but I hope you'll be able to forgive me.

00:45:49

Speaker 2: That's it. The elements those five elements of the good apology, delivered as a sample script actually sounded really good to me as I was reading them. When I first read the description of them, I said to myself, Boy, this is a lot is a lot of work going on here. What is that really going to sound like when when you do it? And when I heard it applied, I found myself saying, You know, that sounds really good. I

00:46:14

Speaker 1: would make a few

00:46:16

Speaker 2: different word choices here and there. But it's not a bad structure.

00:46:20

Speaker 1: No, not at all. I think it really does get you to an apology that accomplishes everything you need. Teoh. A lot of people say, Well, wait a second. You say you want to apologize, but you didn't really apologize. And I like that The five Elements starts right off the bat with the I'm sorry, statement on. Do you just really clearly get across what it is that you were expressing regret for with that, those two kind of I feel like go hand in hand. I think these other elements are really good, you know, acknowledging that you stepped outside, you know, whether it's because you got angry or because you, you know, left somebody hanging or whatever it is acknowledging that that's that's not what should traditionally happen in this relationship or in this exchange, I think is important for sure. Thes air Great Point Stand. I'm so glad you found this article. And it's funny, too,

00:47:12

Speaker 2: because those first three r ah clear mapping onto the advice that we would give the fourth element. The empathy statement acknowledging the impact of the offensive actions was a place where I I found myself saying, You know, that's an elaboration on the way we often talk about this that I appreciated hearing where you make an effort to

00:47:38

Speaker 2: to explicitly show that you understand how this might feel for the other person

00:47:43

Speaker 2: and it's a big step and it's a little bit risky or felt a little bit risky. When I heard it described because you're

00:47:51

Speaker 2: you're taking a chance and I've heard you on this show, Liz, you say it's be careful about assuming the way something is felt or impact someone else. And I

00:48:01

Speaker 1: even with this language, I was like, Oh, does it sound? Is something or does it not? Yeah,

00:48:06

Speaker 2: and I think if you're taking care with it, there's a a way to do it well here, that really shows that you're making an effort, whether you hit it exactly right or not, I think the other person can read it as a genuine effort toe understand things from their perspective

00:48:23

Speaker 2: and the request for forgiveness. The concluding step, I think, has got to help with that, that if that leap that you take in tow sort of thinking about the impact on other people is followed by a genuine request that the other person would forgive you for it or excuse you for it in some way is, ah, way to acknowledge that I've made an effort to put myself into your shoes, but not to see things from my perspective, but to really ground this apology in a meaningful way.

00:48:54

Speaker 1: I like the request for forgiveness because it acknowledges that Teoh close the act of an apology and to kind of heal that relationship. I think acknowledging the forgiveness aspect of it is important. I think a lot of the times we just brush over that and and there's the I'm sorry and then kind of nothing, and it's just assumed you're back to normal. And I do think kind of requesting that forgiveness, um, is e think it's a good move. I liked seeing it. They're kind of that was like, kind of a spark of inspiration

00:49:27

Speaker 2: for me Is we often talk about apologies? It would be something I would wanna wanna be adding to

00:49:32

Speaker 1: our advice. I'm just curious who out there raise your hand If you think I give a really good apology. My my purpose is to make someone else feel better. I hit these marks, I do it right. I would. I would love to hear from you. And if you feel like you've got good apologizing skills or if you pick something up from this, um that maybe you might make you refine your apologizing skills. It's funny that you land there there, too. Eso

00:50:01

Speaker 2: appreciate your positive angle on this that,

00:50:04

Speaker 1: you know? Is there any way that it feels like they nail it like this is

00:50:06

Speaker 2: really good because I couldn't help myself. I think about the scenarios because they often happen very publicly where someone issues an apology that falls short for some reason. And I as I was reading this, I had to censor myself, as I thought. Oh, boy, this is the classic step that people miss That ends up leaving their apology, um, somewhere short of the mark. And oftentimes in a place where it causes more problems than it helps to solve.

00:50:34

Speaker 1: Well, Dan, thank you so much for taking a look at this article and bringing it to our attention and audience. We will be sure to get it up on our social media and on patryan so that y'all can take a look.

00:50:47

Speaker 2: There's another kind of dispute that can be settled in another way like this.

00:50:51

Speaker 1: I'm sorry, E.

00:50:54

Speaker 1: We like to

00:50:55

Speaker 2: end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world, and that can come in so many forms. Today. We hear from Rob.

00:51:05

Speaker 1: Hello, Team. I recently received a note from some new neighbors introducing themselves and mentioning that they're moving. Van would be on the street the next day. They apologized for any inconvenience and made a few very polite suggestions on ways to minimize disruption. They also included a gift card, which they said was in place of bringing treats around while meeting the neighborhood.

00:51:30

Speaker 1: They didn't mention it, but it occurred to me that this might also be a way to treat people to a break at an off street location. During the move, the whole thing was handled so graciously, and I was particularly impressed that these new friends were so thoughtful during what must be a very busy time for them. I'm looking forward to having them in the neighborhood, which has been getting more friendly and neighborly every year. Thanks for inspiring and sharing salute herbal etiquette. Best Rob, That's so nice. Hey, Rob, you just made me feel so good.

00:52:04

Speaker 1: Did you notice that it started as a note from some new neighbors and then particularly impressed that these new friends I like that they started his neighbors and by the other friends. Eso great Rob, Thank you so much. Clearly, this has brought some joy to our day.

00:52:22

Speaker 2: Thank you, Rob, And thank you for listening. Thank you to everyone who sent us something and thank you to everyone who supports us on patryan.

00:52:30

Speaker 1: Please connect with us and share this show with friends, family and even your co workers and toe anyone you might be connected with on

00:52:37

Speaker 2: social media. You can send us your next question feedback or salute toe Awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. You can leave us a message or text at 802858 kind That's 8028585463 on Twitter. We're at Emily Post INTs on Instagram were at Emily Post Institute and on Facebook were Awesome Etiquette and the Emily Post Institute.

00:53:01

Speaker 1: Please consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting patryan dot com slash awesome etiquette. You can also subscribe to the ads version of our show on Spotify or your favorite podcast app, and please consider leaving a review because it helps her show rankings, which helps people

00:53:19

Speaker 2: to find awesome etiquette. Our show is edited by Chris Albertine, an assistant produced by Brigitte Dowd. Thanks Christmas, Bridget.