Episode 319 - Slacker

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social courtesy that's old fashioned.

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Speaker 2: Watch how busy Post and Dan posts and act as host and hostess.

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Speaker 2: They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person. Really. Friendliness. Hello and

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Speaker 1: welcome toe Awesome etiquette,

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Speaker 2: where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. On

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Speaker 1: today's show, we take your questions on sending messages over slack verse,

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Speaker 2: picking up the phone,

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Speaker 1: sending a follow up thank you note name tag etiquette and using girlfriend

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Speaker 2: verse. Girlfriend for awesome etiquette Sustaining members. Our question of the week is about making plans with friends who have financial obstacles.

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Speaker 1: All that, plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a postscript where we get to dive into truly Emily Post and Dan gives us a little peek into Emily's

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Speaker 2: personality. All that coming up. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: awesome

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Speaker 1: etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute. I'm Lizzie Post

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Speaker 2: and I'm Dan Post Senning.

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Speaker 1: I got to see you in person. We saw each other go figure

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Speaker 1: it was really nice on Sunday. I was I was driving around nose in your area and it was so wonderful to have you beat home. And not that I expected you to really be anywhere else and willing to take a visitor. It was like such a beautiful day in Vermont in general, but especially up in the mountains with all that foliage and your property was looking so nice, it was really delightful.

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Speaker 2: Well, not just willing, but, um eager Thio find an excuse to get outside and enjoy some of that afternoon. It was such a nice visit.

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Speaker 1: We had some cheese and some apples and some grapes, so we walked around the property. Dan's been working on his pond like kind of cleaning up the area around it. It was everything looked really good up there because

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Speaker 2: and you are so kind because I've done it with my brother and my father. There's nothing quite so mind numbingly boring as listening to someone described where they've limbed trees and cut back the

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Speaker 1: brush. I did not mind it all. I got excited and into it when I imagined zip lines down into the pond in the summer, once a few trees

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Speaker 2: Okay. Okay.

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Speaker 1: And you could anchor. Don't tell. That was such a good idea. You can't give it away.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to surprise the family.

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Speaker 1: They don't listen to the podcast. I'm interrupting

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Speaker 2: and talking over you. You must stop this line right

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Speaker 1: now. There you have it. Audience. You are in on the secret. Don't tell the family.

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Speaker 2: It was such a nice visit. My biggest disappointment was it was so nice. I didn't have an excuse to try out the new outdoor space heater that I was fortunate enough to acquire over the weekend. And I'm so geeked out on that. I'm just

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Speaker 1: like, come over. Let's set up the heater and stand around outside getting ready for some outdoor pandemic entertaining. I see three

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Speaker 2: heater for the porch, the heater for the garage. They've got slightly different specs and

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Speaker 1: totally no, that's a good set up so that you know, when it's nice out and you feel good about you could be outside if it's if it's not, if it's too windy or something, that the protection of the garage, but still having that big bay open way to go, because way to figure it out. I'm glad that I It won't be See you. Hopefully in the spring.

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Speaker 2: We're setting it, setting it up.

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Speaker 1: I feel like as as we're all finding ways to socialize as best we can, that there is one thing and you tell me if you think it's different. But I feel like we're getting better at speaking up for ourselves or saying no or least just hearing each other out in terms of how to negotiate, how you feel comfortable hanging out with someone. And I know that that was something e don't want to say, the idea of rejection or the idea of imposing because I feel like those both put really negative connotations on the idea. But the idea of speaking up for yourself sometimes felt counterintuitive, and I feel like, uh or sorry in social situations, and it's really nice to feel like more people are willing to say, Oh, I really appreciate you, you know, telling me how you do it. I think it still doesn't quite work at the level I feel comfortable at. But I really hope you all have a good time, that sort of thing. I feel like I'm hearing more people decline Well, I guess maybe that's what I'm trying to get at. After a minute and a half, I hear you. And as

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Speaker 2: I'm hearing, you kind of game it out in your mind. I was thinking to myself about the range of those interactions I've had just over the last week And, you know, visitors from out of state coming by for just, like, the briefest sort of social distance drive by And what I'm gonna be, The parameters for that on one end of the spectrum and then on for me, sort of a much closer part of the spectrum. My brother and I had a check in conversation about where were drawn our lines these days, what is shifted in terms of how we've changed things who were interacting with. And it was a much more detailed, much more intimate conversation. But the basic idea was the same. It was This is how we're doing it. We'd be comfortable like this. How are you doing it? What makes you comfortable? Where's the middle ground where we can get together? Yeah, but I've also noticed those conversations. Um, there's more ease. Maybe they're just more practiced than they were three for six months ago.

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Speaker 1: I really think that they are. And while I don't wanna, like, cheer heavily and like congratulate us all or anything, I do think it's a good skill that we're acquiring. And I think it's It's one that will serve us well later on when we are able to get together as we get into winter. I'm both looking forward to winter because I do like it. Um, but I'm also kind of wondering how all of this is gonna work, and it's definitely going to feel a little different still.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I can feel it coming. Just this last week when we were visiting with those friends from out of town were out on the porch and there was this moment where we were all looking inside through the glass doors at the living room where there was a fire in the fireplace

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Speaker 1: on, and it just looked like a very inviting space.

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Speaker 2: It was sort of calling as it anyway definitely didn't didn't work out in that particular instance. But, um, Pooch and I have also been having this discussion. And last night, as Anisha was bouncing off the walls, having been inside on a rainy day. All day we sort of looked at each other and said, No matter how cold it gets, every day it is worth it. We will bundle up, we will put on the gear and we will get outside, make it a sledding party, make it an Arctic adventure. Make it an Octa, not South Pole adventure. Whatever you need to do, we're going outside.

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Speaker 1: No, it is. It's a good practice and a good thing to steal your brain for right now, because when it's zero degrees out, you could definitely wanna wanna just stay in, oh, bouncing toddlers. How they will definitely motivate you, right? Well, do you think it's probably time that we should get to some questions? I think

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Speaker 2: I could warm up to that. Let's do it.

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Speaker 2: Awesome Etiquette is here to answer your questions. You can email them awesome etiquette and Emily post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463 You can also reach us on social media on Twitter. We're at Emily Post. Inst on instagram were at Emily Post Institute and on Facebook were awesome etiquette. Just remember to use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your posts so that we know you want your question on the show.

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Speaker 1: Our first question is titled, Can I call You Instead?

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Speaker 1: Hi, Dan and Lizzie. I'm a big fan of your show. I have a question about remote work etiquette on Slack. Although it should translate to most other workplace messaging platforms, I find that slack conversations about technical details often lead to miscommunications. Furthermore, I find that questions over slack sound, and that's like in quotes so they sound or a red confrontational without tone of voice or faces for context.

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Speaker 1: When is it justified to request that you convert the conversation into a phone call or video conference? Do you need to provide a reason for the transition? Could you provide a sample script for conversation transition from slack message to phone call or video? Thanks. Anonymous

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Speaker 2: Anonymous. I've got to tell you that Lizzie Post first call note under your question is

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Speaker 1: Oodle Ali this'll like what I feel like this was us writing in Dan. I know

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Speaker 2: a couple of new slackers here

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Speaker 1: we are and Dan and I. Actually, we we kind of

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Speaker 1: having not used slack much. We we didn't understand why we would want to participate in it instead of traditional emailing and phone calls. Toe move work forward. And I have to admit that now that we've been using it with our Web team for for a while now, I really do like it. There are a couple of things I would want to change, but I actually think it is a great way to organize things. And I love how much our team asks us to just make lists of things that like to do straight up to do lists, post them there and then they'll go through and check them off and they all respond and you can kind of see see it all happening. So it's really cool. But, Dan,

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Speaker 1: in our business etiquette seminars, you teach this very question. So I'm gonna just sit back and let you take it away like I do.

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Speaker 2: And one of things I really like about this question is it's ah, a jump. It's a technology jump for an old question. And the way that we were hearing this asked, 10 years ago was always about emails. When does this email chain become so confusing? What are the advantages, too? Picking up the phone, given someone to call, giving yourself the chance to both. Communicate with that full range of emotion that's available when you've got the tone of your voice, the speed and pace of your conversation, the inflection

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Speaker 2: And how much do you lose by losing the written record of that? Call the specificity that comes from being very clear with language and choosing your words and sentences in such a way that you're accountable to them on and there's a record of them for everybody. Toe Look at. So there's there's there's pluses and minuses on both sides, and one of things that we used to say when we talked about when you would make the choice to pick up the phone and give someone the call was if there was ever emotional content that you didn't feel was being well communicated via the written word and my little tip or hint for people there is that that dosage of emotion that tips me over to the point where I want to talk to someone in person or have a phone call is usually a pretty small dose that as soon as it starts to feel fraught, either angst or upset or if I really want to communicate delight or satisfaction. Um, it's much easier toe to communicate those things in person, although never underestimate the power of writing. I'm so delighted when you get something that makes you happy,

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Speaker 2: because it is a judgment call I want to give you. Ah ah, thought that can really help making that judgment in the moment. And that's ask yourself what the communication is in service off. And if that purpose is being served well by one communication, do it. If it would be better served by switching, then listen to that. Listen to that voice, listen to those demands and make the switch because clarity of communication is really important, particularly in business.

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Speaker 1: That is such an excellent point, and I think it really helps clarify how to make a decision for one to move it to the phone or not. So one of the other things that anonymous asked about was the idea of tone and how you come across in your written words on a screen as opposed to when voices or faces or present to help you interpret how someone is saying something. I know that recently there have been reports on people being really, um, not upset over the use of a period at the end of a sentence, but that it really makes them feel like someone is being serious or harsh when they say something. And it's so interesting because I remember when we started it. Emily Post and the big deal was not to include exclamation points everywhere because it was two exciting. It was to in the world of of sort of frivolous and fun and not serious and work. And now it's almost the opposite is starting to happen. Um, standard questions to anonymous are sounding confrontational or harsh. I think we've all seen that happen. Ask someone else to read your email sometime, and I guarantee that they will read it in a harsher or more simplistic way. I think if they read it to themselves silently, as opposed to reading it out loud, I feel like when we read something out loud in front of someone else, where, like, you know, you kind of put put on a nicer tone, but I know that when I'm reading emails, even from Dan, who like is never harsh in his emails to me, sometimes they sound harsh quote unquote sound. Um, and I think it's really easy to feel that way. So one anonymous try to understand that that's a really common feeling, the idea that when someone writes something neutral, it comes off as like angry or negative. When they write something positive, it comes off its neutral has been around for a long time, and I think that that's just something to be aware of in general. And then I think, try to do your best to make sure that when you communicate, you're communicating as much of your true intent and tone as you can with that using really good and descriptive words. Sometimes if it is what you're looking for, using encouraging language to the like Go team. I'm really excited about this or looking forward to getting this chunk of the work done. I know it's been really hard for everybody, but if we could answer these questions, that would be great, you know, as opposed Thio. We need these questions answered by Friday, done and both of them get the point across right Dan, but different ways. Thing is

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Speaker 2: such a rich question. There's so much going on here. I'm reminded when I hear your advice about re reading an email for tone that its's such good advice. If I'm thinking about program like slack or a workplace management app, I would read the conversation and my participation in it, because so often it's very quick back and forth. Um, it might help you to get a sense for how you sound over time. The impression that you build in that channel is one thing that I would keep on eye on

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Speaker 2: if you're hearing advice like, Oh, you some language to soften what you're saying. You think that's completely unrealistic? I've got 10 slack channels open a managing 15 clients, think to yourself. Well, maybe it's every fifth message or every third message that I make an effort to humanize just a little bit and address someone else's situation or scenario so that you start toe work that in a little bit it's gonna help you build the benefit of the doubt around that natural reading tendency that Lizzie was describing where people don't hear your positive tone as they re read something so sprinkling those things in And, no, you don't have to do it every time. But making an effort to do it a little bit is a huge deal. Learning how to continue to support relationships

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Speaker 2: when we are dealing with this mediated communication communication that isn't in person is emerging is a really important professional skill, and your ability to keep the tone of a slack channel positive is a work skill today. And it isn't that it's a distraction. It's about doing the things necessary so that people get along well enough thio here each other and work well together.

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Speaker 2: The Transition sample script I think Lizzie was like tip toeing right up to

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Speaker 1: it. Andi, my thought There is that. Just give them.

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Speaker 2: Give them the benefit of the doubt of understanding your reason so that you provide a reason. But there's no need to go into a long explication. Um would love to clear a few things up. Do you have a minute to jump on? The phone could be enough to transition that conversation from one channel to another. You acknowledge that you're making a jump you ask permission to do it and you give a reason why. And, boy, that sounds like I'm doing a lot. Most people are gonna do that naturally in one sentence, so

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Speaker 2: don't don't overthink it, but do

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Speaker 1: it. It is a lot easier than it sounds. Ah, Final

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Speaker 2: thought because we keep saying slack, Slack, slack, slack, slack. For those of you that have adopted Microsoft teams recently, it's a very similar service. So you could go back and re listen to this question. And every time you hear slack think Microsoft team or similar Workplace Project Management APP

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Speaker 1: Anonymous, we certainly hope that our answer helps. And we hope that your slack general is a much friendlier and positive work environment moving forward. I think Jimmy and Susie would like to know how valuable the telephone is an emergency. Now the telephone helps us because it lets us know right away when we're needed and how, when and where we can help people.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: This

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Speaker 2: question is titled Thank you again.

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Speaker 2: Hi. Lizzie and Dan. My husband and I are expecting our first baby any day now. Today is our due date. Hopefully that advanced. Congratulations. Air Maybe now it's the future. And this happened in the past.

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Speaker 1: Maybe by now we have the baby out. Yeah, continuing. And we

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Speaker 2: had a few zoom baby showers in late August 1 couple who attended did not send a gift, which was totally fine with us. I struggled with whether to send a thank you note to them for attending because it felt like it was pointing out the lack of a gift. But I did. I wrote a simple, honest note saying it was fun toe have them and applauding their winning the baby shower game we had. I think I know where this is going.

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Speaker 2: Well, ah. Week after we sent their note, a check arrived in the mail from them with an apology for the delay. Do I send a second thank you note for the check? Thank you so much for your excellent show. Emily.

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Speaker 1: Emily. Oh, you've You've served us up a nice, easy, Wonderful. Thank you. No question. I say absolutely. You thank them for their coming to the party. The zoom party. So you haven't thanked them for a check. And so you definitely want to send a thank you for this check. I know you are probably, like, totally on the sleep schedule. Craziness. Now, I'm sure the baby has arrived by the time the stairs, but it's definitely a good idea to send the thank you know, and they've mentioned, you know, apology. So sorry for the delay, you can say, Oh, no, no apology needed it all. This is such a surprise and and something to be extra grateful for. And that might be the way to let them know that truly, their presence was enough the first time around. But it's it is wonderful that they've sent you this. I don't think you should have any worries that they felt guilted into it or anything. I think your note saying, you know, thank you for coming to the party and supporting us was absolutely appropriate and lovely.

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Speaker 1: Dan, how di Dio was going to say,

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Speaker 2: Emily, I have nothing to add. Thank you so much for this question. Lizzie Post. You did a phenomenal job, Emily. Thank you so much for this question. And we really hope that you're enjoying that bundle of joy.

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Speaker 2: Thank you Is a simple way to repay those

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Speaker 1: who do things for you.

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Speaker 1: Yes, we do need these simple expressions all the time to show that we're thinking of the other person.

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Speaker 1: Our next question is titled Name Tag Etiquette, and it kind of geeked out at first because name tag etiquette is usually usually specific where it's warm, but this is a different subject.

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Speaker 1: Hi, Lizzie and Dan. I took a job in Minnesota and was surprised that many people here often put on name tags for work and social events. It was especially odd at work. Events were all present already knew the names of the others present.

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Speaker 1: When I'm in a store or at a doctor's appointment, for example, and the person attending to me has a uniformed with a name tag with their first name written on it. I feel odd addressing someone by name when they haven't introduced themselves to me. I feel like I'm inserting myself in a social sphere that I haven't been invited. Thio. My question is, if a workplace requires workers to wear their first name large on a name tag, is it socially invasive or presumptuous to address them by name Martin

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Speaker 2: O. K. Pop quiz Etiquette geek. What

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Speaker 1: side do you

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Speaker 2: wear your name tag on.

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Speaker 1: Where do you

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Speaker 2: wear your name tag?

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Speaker 1: I do know this Answer. It is on the left. Bravo!

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Speaker 2: Bravo! Ding, ding, ding. Do you wanna venture? Ah, guess as to why I'm flipping the switch here. This is usually you asking me wedding questions.

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Speaker 1: I think I remember correctly and I would have to look it up, but it doesn't have to do with your gaze being able to see the name tag and read it clearly when you're e think like when you're shaking hands or when you're engaging in an introduction.

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Speaker 2: I've heard something very similar to that. I don't know if there's a right answer. I often wondered if maybe it was just practical that many people being right handed it's easier toe attach a fix or work with a name tag that you're putting on the left side that when you reach out to shake someone's hand, it doesn't sort of turn the right side of your body. So it leaves that that name tag available to somebody while you're shaking. But that's not what Martin wanted to know.

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Speaker 1: No. And, well, there's a bunch of things I want to bring up before before we address Martin specific question of work, places that have their workers wear name tags and whether or not you should use the worker's name. But I love the fact that even our assistant producer, Brigitte, chimed in because she was saying that she really loved the question because it always kind of startled her when customers called her by name when she was working in a store, even though she had to wear a name tag. It was like a surprise, like a stranger was using her name. And I could definitely see that. Like, if someone was trying to get your attention and they were saying something like, You know, like, Excuse me, Lizzie, I'd be like Whoa, like is my mom behind me like it could kind of make a person feel a little like, caught off guard because they obviously don't know your name. But I do feel like Dan when I'm in a store and I've worked with someone and they've helped me some way that even even sometimes if it's just getting directions to a certain area of the store, um, that I often say, if I've noticed their name tag, you know. Oh, thanks, Ben. Thanks. Whoever I really appreciate it and and walk off. So there's something for me about having had at least a little bit of an exchange first that makes using the name feel okay, but it doesn't feel OK when someone's like, calling out and and we haven't had any exchange yet. There is a certain

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Speaker 2: subtlety to this question that the more I think about it, I say to myself, You're right. There's a question of tone of voice. There's a question of timing and the interaction. There's, ah, question of the degree of familiarity you actually have with someone. To me, that's the startling thing is that there's something about addressing someone by their first name that's very informal. It's very familiar,

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Speaker 1: and at the same time when someone wears a name

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Speaker 2: tag there wearing a name tag to give you that information and to make it available to you. And theoretically, it's It's not just thio. Put that name in your head, but the facilitates the relationship in some way. And I like your positive example that when you're thanking someone or you've had a bit of an exchange using someone's name could be humanizing. It could be about acknowledging their individuality, their identity. Um, but there's something about if you haven't had even the briefest of smiles or twinkles of eyes to establish that report that it could seem intrusive, surprising or startling. And I was thinking to myself that you might be able to remove some of that startle or surprise with other magic words like, Excuse me or pardon me, but those air still initiate Torrey terms. That's the beginning of something. So it's likely that you're you're trying to get someone's attention to. Excuse me, Tom. Um, if you weren't really monitoring the tone, could could start to be a little demand.

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Speaker 1: Er Oh, sorry. I thought you were going to say that kind of Excuse me, Tom. Almost like it was a question on the Tom and a real question and said softly might be just gentle enough to make that Excuse me with the Tom. Okay. But you surprised me. You went the other way with it because I was hearing a slightly different tone

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Speaker 2: in my mind. But

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Speaker 1: the way you just

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Speaker 2: said it, those same words, actually, that that's like questioning inflection softens the use of the name a little bit. It's not demanding

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Speaker 1: well, and another thing that's interesting about this Dan that you and I had been chatting about was that. And this isn't Martin specific question. Martin's asking about workplace situations, but you had brought up that social or community events where you wear a name tag that the same. Excuse me, Betsy, your excuse me, Tom might actually sound quite friendly and approachable as opposed Teoh. A little off putting and startling.

00:26:36

Speaker 2: I do think that there is a difference between a situation where someone is in a service relationship, a professional service relationship and a social function. And if I'm thinking about a social function with name tags, oftentimes the purpose is to make people that air new feel really welcome or like there there, just reminded. Maybe they've met a few of these people before, but we all know how hard it is to remember names all the time. And it could be such a It can be so helpful. And for everybody that knows everybody already, as we referenced in the question, it can feel like it's sort of a strange practice a same time. It's not for those who are familiar. It really is for everyone else and can really work well. So I don't want to say, Oh, name tags there so silly either.

00:27:22

Speaker 1: No, no, they I think they're very helpful

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Speaker 2: for that. They're problematic that they invite this familiarity that you shouldn't have. But it's not a social sphere when we're talking about that service relationship, that professional context. So it's not a social intrusion. But I do think you have to be careful about about how you do it so that you don't end up triggering some of those little red flags that might go off in someone's mind.

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Speaker 1: And as I was going to say, the other factor I do think is time my local grocery store, where a lot of the clerks have worked there for years and I've been a customer for years and we've had little exchanges over time. Now I feel totally comfortable saying, You know, hi, Cathy, or, you know, whoever's whoever's there checking me out. If I've known them for a while and even though we haven't ever done a full formal introduction to to one another, um and they might never know my name, that's one of the other signs, especially now that most of us hold our own credit cards and debit cards and and punch in on the little keypad on our own. And there is no exchange there if you're not a part of a rewards program or something that your name is appearing with, and they might not ever know your name. But you know, there's which can feel kind of awkward, but I think we've covered all of Martin's question. But to sum it up, the idea is that if a workplace is requiring workers toe wear that name tag that it is available for you to use. But as Dan said, How you do it really makes the difference. Martin, thank you so much for this delightful question. Well, in our practice in class, we learned introducing people was just a matter of showing respect. Bill, this is Pete Pete Dolphin. Bill Anderson. How do you do, Bill? Hello, Pete.

00:29:11

Speaker 1: Our next

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Speaker 2: question is about girlfriend verse girlfriend.

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Speaker 2: Hi, Lizzie and Dan. Over the past six months, I've been facing an etiquette problem that I could very much use your help with sample scripts, please. I'm a woman and I recently started dating another woman for the first time. It's going wonderfully, and I'm very much in love. Prior to this, I wasn't out to friends and family and a dated men. So telling people about my girlfriend has meant coming out. The loved ones and acquaintances alike que the dilemma. Many people, particularly older women, use the phrase girlfriend to refer toa any female friend, whereas the younger generation tends to use it on Lee to refer to romantic partners. This means that if I tell older friends, family and co workers that I'm going on a trip to visit my girlfriend, they'll often ask me later. How my friend is doing

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Speaker 2: coming out is scary, and it takes courage to use the word girlfriend in conversation because it does click for many people. So I often feel frustrated and unheard when others in my life don't understand. I don't know how to correct um, especially with folks where this has happened multiple times. But it is important to me that they know how I identify and that my girlfriend is more than just a friend.

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Speaker 2: I keep hoping that if I say girlfriend enough in conversation, folks

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Speaker 1: will

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Speaker 2: eventually catch on. But so far that hasn't been the case with anyone

00:30:31

Speaker 2: so far. I've just been letting it go, but it does get to me. I've had longer conversations with the people very close to me parent siblings, grandparent's. But

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Speaker 1: I'm really at

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Speaker 2: a loss on how to help my co workers and acquaintances understand in a way that is casual, avoids, undo emotional burden or invasive personal questions and allows me to live honestly.

00:30:52

Speaker 1: What do you

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Speaker 2: to think? How

00:30:53

Speaker 1: can I

00:30:54

Speaker 2: make it clear that my girlfriend is not just a friend who's a girl, especially when the misunderstanding has been going on for months? Best Anonymous

00:31:03

Speaker 1: O Anonymous. Congratulations on finding love, that is, that is not a moment to be missed. As we were about to tackle this question, I'm really glad that you detailed everything out for us both the perspective that sometimes kind of different generations, or at least from your experience, different generations seemed to use the term girlfriend differently. I remember as a kid being annoyed whenever and you were right for me. It was older women as well would say, Oh yeah, my girlfriend, because it would. It would confuse me because we never talked about our guy friends as boyfriends. And so that that was for me when I was like, Why doesn't everybody just say friends there? My friend and I remember being annoyed by this is a kid. As I grew older, I did adopt the Oh yeah, my girlfriends and I all went out the other night. Or but when you plural eyes it, it's different. I can also really respect your desire to want tohave the casual drop, the casual pick up the way that people kind of learn about your life, where you just tell them details of what you're doing and they figure things out about you. You know what I mean? Clearly, anyone who talks to me in the summertime is gonna figure out I like golf. Or probably that I'm single. But it's It's the casual drop, as opposed to the heavy drop that I can totally respect wanting to find Dan. How about you? I love it.

00:32:24

Speaker 2: It's It's an etiquette space, and it's a question that involves so much awareness about personal boundaries and where you might want and not want to have, conversations that could push those boundaries while still living honestly and in a way that leaves you feeling hole and integrated and presenting in a way that other people can know that you and it's a specific enough etiquette question. It's something we do all the time. How do we address this sort of generational language? Question where the word itself has different meanings for different people.

00:33:02

Speaker 1: I think that the way you bridge that divide bond, it's whether you're with someone who's older than you, or whether just the person you're with is not picking up on it. That could easily be younger than you. They could easily be appear. But I think that honestly adding the romantic detail to the relationship. So instead of oh, I went to see my girlfriend Oh, I went to see my girlfriend. Nothing like a weekend with the one you love, you know, or just adding something about like it was great to finally get a date night or, you know, what do you do last Wednesday? Oh, is date night with my girlfriend? You know those kinds of things. I think when you add the romantic kind of touch to, it could help be that Still, I don't want to say subtle, because at that point you're really putting it out there. But that that's softer, I think, casual way that you've been expressing. You'd like Teoh be able to convey this without having to flat out say it, and I think it might also like you say, not invite such a large conversation about it. But keep the focus on the fact that you had a great date night or that's what you were up to on Wednesday night, you know what I mean?

00:34:10

Speaker 2: To me, this is the perfect solution. The idea of a romantic modifier just toe to notch up the amount of information that you're giving, particularly as you say, if you're aware that it's something that someone hasn't picked up on with that that other language, that other piece of information

00:34:28

Speaker 2: as I was reading the question, the other thing I really appreciated here is the understanding that the way we communicate with other people about our romantic relationships is often a process where the people around us figure out how important that new friend is. Tow us and I could think about sort of the classic, um, discussion between parents of Oh, this. What is this, The one? Oh, it

00:34:54

Speaker 1: seems like

00:34:54

Speaker 2: there's really something going on here and they don't actually know. But they're starting to intuit. They're starting to pick up on the importance of this relationship based on how someone talks about it. And

00:35:05

Speaker 1: this is Dan prepping for when Anisha is finally a teenager or old enough to start having crush it. Well, crushes happened way younger, but I can I can see Dan being like I gotta keep on the lookout for the clues. Oh, boy. Uh huh. When's my daughter gonna have a crush? But there is this sort of fun detective game that we sometimes play with each other

00:35:26

Speaker 2: and particularly the early stages of a relationship.

00:35:29

Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, No, my parents do it with me all the time. There's there's often a So you've been talking about this person a lot. Is this someone new? I don't know. Dad, like that does happen a lot. And it's entirely

00:35:43

Speaker 2: possible that that game of patients of letting other people know just by the fact that you keep bringing this person up, that they're important to you and they're they're a significant part of your life isn't an unreasonable tool to keep in your toolbox.

00:35:59

Speaker 1: I like the fact that you bring up patients because I'm thinking about some of the people whom Anonymous has has interacted with. You haven't picked up on it and they're frustrated, you know that. Like oh, man, you haven't You haven't gotten this yet, but take heart in the fact that they haven't gotten it yet. When they finally do, it will be that Click that moment for them. And so I say, Keep dropping, dropping the the casual, the casual mentions. And as we've said earlier at the romantic modifier I love, I love the idea of that. And then I think they eventually will catch on. I was thinking about those people. When you have those frustrated moments like Oh, man, this person still doesn't get it, do they? And it's just like, yeah, no, they still don't get it. When they do, it will be that fresh moment, or it will click finally, and I say, Look to that confidently, um, and look forward to it as maybe as opposed to being frustrated by it, that might put put you in a better mental space. But other than that, until they get it, they don't really get it unless you decide

00:37:03

Speaker 2: to tell them directly. Yes, Anonymous. We really hope that this answer helps and that this relationship continues to go well and that the other people in your life can see that as well.

00:37:14

Speaker 2: Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers. Toe awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. You can also leave us a voicemail or text

00:37:23

Speaker 1: at 802858 k i n d. That's 802858

00:37:28

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00:37:30

Speaker 1: reach out to us on social media on Twitter, we're at Emily Post inst on instagram were at Emily Post Institute on Facebook were awesome etiquette. Just remember to use the hashtag

00:37:40

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00:37:56

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00:37:56

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00:37:56

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00:38:20

Speaker 1: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer and the topics we cover. And today we're hearing from Rob On Episode 3 16 about birthdays that fall on Christmas. Hello,

00:38:33

Speaker 2: awesome etiquette team. The birthday and Christmas scheduling conundrum mentioned in Episode 3 16 made

00:38:39

Speaker 1: me

00:38:39

Speaker 2: reflect on how well it has worked for me to celebrate all of Christmas tide rather than just December 25th. Observing the traditional 12 days of Christmas, beginning on the 25th and running through the fifth of the new year,

00:38:53

Speaker 1: makes it much easier

00:38:54

Speaker 2: to gather with a variety of friends and family members. That may not help solve the problem faced by anonymous, but it has made the holiday season less stressful and more Mary for me. Happy upcoming holidays toe all Rob Kent Dougray

00:39:08

Speaker 1: Oh, Rob, thank you so much. Not not only did that for some reason, make me feel very jolly and excited for the holidays like the rial wintry ones. But Dan knows that I love. I tried to make it mandatory at our company that we take the week between the 25th and and New Year's Day off that often. It was something that I championed for when the company had more people at it and when it became very small, just the two of us, I was like, Here we go. Now is the time I loved that particular week and the idea of really using it to kind of draw out the celebrations and you're right. It probably wouldn't have worked for anonymous, but I think it will probably help a lot of other people if they if they choose to go that route to so I. But I learned the word Christmas tide through this. I didn't know that that's what those days were called

00:39:57

Speaker 2: Rob. Thank you for a great piece of feedback and for inspiring us to look up

00:40:01

Speaker 1: Christmas tide

00:40:04

Speaker 1: and thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please do keep them coming. You can send your feedback or update toe awesome etiquette and Emily post dot com or leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463 We so love to hear from you.

00:40:33

Speaker 1: It's time for our post script segment, where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette. And this week, well, we're diving deeper into the topic of Emily Post, as opposed to etiquette itself. But we thought that it would be really fun to do a postscript segment straight out of truly Emily Post, which is the other biography. It was written by Emily's son, Edwin Post, and it's a biography written by a loving son. But it does tell fabulous stories of Emily Post. It really paints a picture of how she thought how she talked, what her conversations and relationships with her family were like on DSO. Dan found this great sort of section. Dan, do you want to tell our audience a little bit about what you have for us from truly Emily Post? I

00:41:20

Speaker 2: would love to. We're going to start very near the beginning. Um, this is a section from the first chapter. We're starting on page four of truly Emily Post and to set the stage. Emily's father has been commissioned to as an architect to design and help build Tuxedo Park, and that project has just been completed. And we're now being introduced to Tuxedo Park, and we're going to see um, Emily at the stage of her life where she took up residence there. Seasonally,

00:41:48

Speaker 2: Tuxedo Park was the second country club in America. It was the first anywhere in the world to be an independent, planned, carefully screened community. It's opening with appropriate fanfare. In May 18 84 inaugurated an era, The Vogue it started was toe last, supreme and unchecked until the Great Depression.

00:42:07

Speaker 2: The cottage in the park was one of four, which Mr Lowly Art had encouraged his architect to build for himself. The largest of the four was the Prices summer home. Emily had spent every summer there since she was a long legged schoolgirl. She and Tuxedo had grown up together. She had gone to her first real dance at the clubhouse and appeared in private theatricals, always a popular feature of the tuxedo season. On the stage in the club's ballroom, she had essayed her first flirtations in the clubhouse veranda. She had been married at the Episcopal Church. Within the park, Mr Lowly Yard and his architect had considerably allowed space for God. Also, for a doctor, neither the souls nor the bodies of the club's members were to be neglected. All other matters, neither athletic nor social, were relegated to the village, which Mr Lowly are built and owned outside the park gates.

00:42:55

Speaker 2: Everyone in the tuxedo set,

00:42:57

Speaker 1: which was subtly

00:42:58

Speaker 2: different from the Newport, said and the South, Hampton said, And the Bar Harbor set, though there were some families which overlapped, took it for granted that young Mrs Post. So recently, Emily Price would open her cottage at the park at the conventional time in May, as Emily had always behaved correctly and as was expected of her, it was anticipated that she would be improper retirement for a few months not being seen in public except driving in her carriage and not receiving any callers except married ladies

00:43:27

Speaker 2: with the same exemplary regard for the proprieties she would when the time came, have her baby in her own house, attended by the local general practitioner with some reliable old family servant as nurse

00:43:39

Speaker 2: during the a couch mint, Emily's mother, keeping true to form, would preside in the drawing room until the doctor came downstairs, reported the sex and condition of the infant and invited its grand parent to ascend and inspect it. Young Mr Post would be permitted, even encouraged, to take himself to the club, where the ritual champagne would be waiting on ice.

00:43:59

Speaker 2: Mrs. Price was one of those who took every step in this procedure for granted. Short, stocky, rigidly corseted with sandy hair and none of her daughter's stately beauty. She had stared incredulously when Emily announced sometime in February that she and Edwin would

00:44:16

Speaker 1: not be in the park

00:44:17

Speaker 2: that summer. Why not? Mrs Price demanded.

00:44:21

Speaker 2: The doctor thinks it's inadvisable.

00:44:24

Speaker 2: The doctor What doctor?

00:44:27

Speaker 2: Still sweetly, though fully aware that what she had to say bristled with surprises and that Mrs Price was not one of those who enjoyed the unexpected. Emily explained that she had put herself under the care of a New York physician who specialized in obstetrics.

00:44:44

Speaker 2: He lectured on this subject at the New York Hospital obstetrics. The unfamiliar word came from Mrs Prices. Lips in a sputter.

00:44:53

Speaker 2: It means having babies, darling, that would be Emily. There is no need to be course, replies her mother.

00:45:00

Speaker 1: Certainly not. Obstetrics

00:45:02

Speaker 2: is scientific. On Obstetrician is quite the newest thing in the medical profession. There aren't many of them yet, but they're coming along.

00:45:10

Speaker 2: Scientific. A snort proclaimed Mrs Prices opinion of science as applied to the natural process of birth, she continues. Thio express her opinions about fad diets, general hygiene and other fads that she deemed to be ah, youth culture at the time. It is such a fun book, it really does give you, Ah, glimpse at the personalities behind the sort of stately social maneuverings that I think I often associate with the world of Emily Post.

00:45:46

Speaker 1: Oh, I kind of want to hear the more I know, she tells Emily that she might basically kind of turned into what we imagine of a hippie today, but I'm like laughing at the fact that she's probably saying this toe Emily back, you know, in like, Is this for the birth of Bruce? Sir Edwin?

00:46:00

Speaker 2: No, no, this would be Edwin, probably the first, the oldest.

00:46:03

Speaker 1: This would be Edwin, and I don't remember what year he was born in, but it was still long before hippies were around it. Z such a classic conversation twist a couple words and you could hear, you know, a mom and daughter today saying Oh, absolutely. What do you mean? You're gonna have your baby at home? Don't diet. What are you talking about? Exactly, kiddo? Dan, what are you talking about? Um, but it is really nice to to kind of hear the report between the mother and daughter. What she calls her mother, darling, just just like, Oh, it's just almost too much. It's

00:46:39

Speaker 2: scientific, darling. Truly. Emily Post is truly Emily Post and the whole family bio feel of it is one that I kind of lean into as I'm reading. What I try to picture is, um, Emily in retirement, uh, talking with her son, who's writing a biography about her and then sort of sharing stories about the family and her life. So I I kind of read it with the feel of that conversation in my mind. And if I'm not saying to myself, this is 1000% historically accurate, but I'm saying it actually communicates very accurately

00:47:19

Speaker 2: the way they understood their lives. Onda way they felt about living them. I think it's a really excellent record, and it's a hard book to find. If you ever come across a physical copy of Truly Emily Post, do yourself a favor and grab it because it's not an easy book to get your hands on it. It's so much

00:47:37

Speaker 1: fun. But it is. It is a cool book, and thank you so much for bringing it out for us today and diving into it. I'd love to task you with finding some other great sections from that book to bring out, because I think it'd be a lot of fun. So thanks so much for bringing that out. Today

00:47:52

Speaker 2: we will return to truly Emily Post and the turtles that got loose in the basement.

00:47:57

Speaker 1: I love it. I love it. I love it.

00:48:00

Speaker 1: Notice how pleasant and

00:48:02

Speaker 2: thoughtful Mrs Anderson is as she expresses interest in Bills Ideas on the Post.

00:48:08

Speaker 2: We like to end our show on a high note, so we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world, and that can come in so many forms today. We hear from Chelsea.

00:48:18

Speaker 1: Good morning, Awesome etiquette team. Recently, my husband's boss hosted a small picnic as a thank you for the intimate circle of people who work with him every day. It was a potluck style dinner. Now I have been eating a gluten free diet for six years, as mandated by a health concern, and I usually find myself limited at many food centered functions. Since the health concern is mine, I keep it to myself, and I'm usually very successful in finding things I can eat at events. However, I do find that I miss out on a lot of desert. Thus at the picnic when the deserts came out, I assure you, they looked beautiful and smelled even more wonderful. But in true Pavla fashion, my mouth watered instantly in vain.

00:49:05

Speaker 1: That was until a colleague of my husband's brought out a nondescript package with an additional set aside Desert that she had gotten just for me. She had taken it upon herself to find out if anyone had any dietary restrictions and brought me the most sinfully delicious fudgy brownies with toasted marshmallow light cream on top. I will admit that I begrudgingly offered to share, but I'm fairly certain everyone could see the glutinous gleam in my eye and politely left the entire thing to me. I was incredibly touched that she went out of her way to find out about my gluten free diet and then brought a separate item I could enjoy. It was a small thing, but it was really very touching, especially because I love chocolate. In addition to the hand written thank you note I sent. I felt aerials class and thoughtfulness should be highlighted somewhere. Chelsea s Oh, that's so deliciously great Aunt,

00:50:09

Speaker 2: Get kudos toe Ariel. We're just delighted we get so many questions early on on this show about dietary restrictions and host. And it's so much fun to hear a story about someone doing it well and just how good it made someone feel.

00:50:24

Speaker 1: Chelsea, thank you so much for the salute

00:50:27

Speaker 2: on. Thank you for listening and thank you to everyone who sent us something. Thank you to everyone who supports us on patryan.

00:50:35

Speaker 1: Please connect with us and share this show with your friends, family, maybe your co workers and hopefully out on social media. You can send us questions, feedback and salutes by email. Toe awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com by phone. You can leave us a message or text at 802858 kind. That's eight

00:50:53

Speaker 2: 028585463 on Twitter We're at Emily Post Inst on Instagram were at Emily Post Institute and on Facebook. We are Awesome Etiquette and the Emily Post Institute. Please consider becoming a sustaining member. You can find out more about this by visiting patryan dot com slash awesome etiquette. You can also subscribe to

00:51:12

Speaker 1: the ads version of our show on Spotify or your favorite podcast app, and please consider leaving us a review or engaging with one of our sponsors. Our show is edited by Chris Albertine, an assistant produced by Brigitte Dowd. Thanks, Chris Bridget.