Episode 32 - The Problem with Sorry, But…

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Speaker 1: maybe

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Speaker 2: it's just that you don't know how to use social courtesy, that's old fashioned

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Speaker 2: host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect thinking of the other person. Real friendliness.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of awesome etiquette. Our podcast comes to you from the studios of Vermont Public radio and is part of the Infinite Guest network from american public media. I'm lizzie post

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Speaker 2: and I'm from the Emily Post Institute,

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Speaker 1: so dan I want to talk about the phrase, I'm sorry,

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Speaker 2: I accept your apology. Very

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Speaker 1: cute. No, I mean have you ever noticed that

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Speaker 1: as someone is telling you about something difficult and you say I'm sorry a lot of the times they'll fire back with, oh it's not your fault. It's like we know people, I feel like they've forgotten that I'm sorry can also be a term of sympathy that it's something we say to let someone know

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Speaker 1: we feel badly for what they're going through or what they're experiencing that we offer them our sympathy in that moment.

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Speaker 2: It's so often that I hear you remind people that when someone presents you with something difficult you can you can just be sympathetic and say, you know, I'm so sorry to hear that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't have to take responsibility. It's it's not always taking responsibility. Now there are times when apologies need to happen.

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Speaker 1: And the other thing that this brings to mind for me are the people who apologize and they say,

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Speaker 1: well I'm I'm sorry for that, but you and they launch in. And I always I always struggle when I hear that and I struggle when I'm the person who wants to say that because it's not the every situation, there's one person who's wrong and one person who's right, often there are wrongs on both sides that need to be sort of atoned for or

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Speaker 1: acknowledge.

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Speaker 2: I think that's a really important point. I often find myself if there's any, if a butter and if follows the apology beware

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Speaker 1: beware. So how do you fix it? And I think one of the ways that you can fix that is to really own that apology, um,

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Speaker 1: dan, I'm really sorry that

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Speaker 1: I said X Y. Z yesterday,

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Speaker 1: I can understand how that would have hurt your feelings or it would have been the wrong time to bring that up because of what you were going through or the day that you had.

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Speaker 1: I'm really sorry for that.

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Speaker 1: I do want to take a moment to also talk about how when this happens, X, Y. Z. I feel.

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Speaker 1: So this way about it.

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Speaker 2: If there's a butter and if let the apology stand on its own apology

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Speaker 1: stand and then ignore the butt and say, you know, I'd also love to talk about

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Speaker 1: that way, it's it's a sort of a new conversation and you're still able to address whatever it is that concerns you or is really difficult for you. You know, um I I know that I should be watching out for um these signs from you or I should be asking first if you're busy or what you have going on.

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Speaker 1: I just also would like to talk about the fact that when this happens, you know, I then react this way and I'd love to get us to a place where that's not happening either. So so that we're both doing the good things for each other.

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Speaker 2: What I'm loving yes.

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Speaker 1: For our imaginary problem that I'm trying to vaguely described

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Speaker 2: the apologies for yourself and your role. And even when you're talking about addressing the root problem or the root issue, you're also taking responsibility. You're talking about your responses, your reactions and your feelings and that really gives the other person a lot of space to

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Speaker 2: to do the right thing and to approach you in a way that's that's mature and grown up, but also informed

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Speaker 1: And I think what's nice too is you can always find a way

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Speaker 1: to say what I'm really hoping for is for this to get better for both of us that way you come at it from that place of I want resolution and I want solution and I want I want this to be better for both of us.

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Speaker 2: I'm reminded we we get questions all the time about celebrity apologies and political apologies in this world of social media where people make more mistakes and

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Speaker 2: we also feel like we have such a personal relationship with these public figures that many times people feel they're owed an apology when somebody does something wrong. And sometimes those apologies are excellent. I think we gave an etiquette salute to Jonah Hill for a most excellent apology. Sometimes they're not excellent. And oftentimes the not excellent apologies really hinge on that. But or that if they,

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Speaker 2: they lack the sincerity, someone doesn't take the time,

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Speaker 2: um, to let the apology resonate and have its own weight, which is, I think exactly what you're talking about and doing it in a personal way

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Speaker 1: or they're repeating the offense. You know, often when someone uses a word that's really offensive, they'll sometimes apologize by saying, I'm sorry for using and then they insert the offensive word again and you're like,

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Speaker 1: come on man.

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Speaker 2: For the classic. If I'm sorry if x, y or Z and

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Speaker 1: if that really

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Speaker 2: puts the cause for the trouble on the other person,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't take any risks. I'm sorry if you were upset by that,

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Speaker 1: it's not if I was upset, I clearly was upset. So I'm sorry that you were upset by. I'm sorry this, I'm sorry what I did upset you.

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Speaker 2: I think that's a really important point to make that you don't minimize someone else's like their legitimate her feelings. Even if you don't necessarily agree with why their feelings got hurt. You can understand and sympathize

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Speaker 1: what are some of the other other points to the apology. Like what makes, what makes for a really solid apology,

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Speaker 2: um, that you give it the time that it deserves, and that, you know, Exactly. And sometimes that means that you pick up the phone and call someone instead of texting. Sometimes it means you talk to someone in person instead of picking up the phone. If you are in person, means you look them in the eye and you own it, that you give them a chance to reply and respond, and that you're willing to listen. Um if

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Speaker 2: there's a real follow up action that you make a commitment, you follow through on the follow up that if you do make an apology, that's I'm sorry,

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Speaker 2: and I'm sorry for this, and that's what it is. And then there is a follow up that then happens where you talk about whatever the root problem is, that you then follow through with whatever you say you're gonna do to address that root problem, because that's that's almost

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Speaker 2: it has a saying it has an equal weight to the apology in terms of its import on giving that apology. Some integrity

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Speaker 1: apologies aren't.

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Speaker 1: And and

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Speaker 2: as

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Speaker 1: we've said before on the show, sometimes you'll go through an apology and it's still going to take time for that hurt to move away.

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Speaker 1: You know, especially if it's something that's been a longstanding, difficult situation, it's going to take time to get back to the place where there's trust and camaraderie in that relationship, as opposed to negative feelings.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry, excuse me, pardon me. These are magic words just like, please thank you and you're welcome and I really like that. We're we're we're dedicating an intro to the show to really emphasizing a magic word that

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Speaker 2: um is really critically important, how you handle your accidents and mistakes as as much about you as how you handle your successes maybe more. And this is a big one. Before we conclude today, I just want to acknowledge all of our international listeners out there. I had the most pleasant experience last week of talking with

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Speaker 2: um someone from Ireland who had been listening to this show and contacted the Emily Post Institute to do some other business and

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Speaker 2: it was such a treat to hear from a listener from across the pond and I just wanted to give a quick shout out to all the folks that picked this podcast up all over the world. We um we really appreciate your being with us and hope you stick with us for for many episodes to come.

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Speaker 2: Now let's get to those questions. Sure, you're right, but there's so much to learn how to do. Sure there's a lot to learn, but it's

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Speaker 1: worth it

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Speaker 2: and learning is easy one way is by watching others

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Speaker 1: behind a really day.

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Speaker 1: Our questions today begin with a wedding question from Natalie,

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Speaker 1: We are having a destination wedding in Las Vegas and are having an issue with transportation. We have reserved a charter bus that seats 56 people but have about 90 to 100 wedding guests. How do we tell people that the transportation to and from the venue is limited.

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Speaker 1: I was thinking to include that transportation will be provided on a first come first serve basis on the details enclosure card.

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Speaker 1: Is that the correct etiquette? We cannot afford another bus to take our guests to and from the venue. Help. Thank you for your time confused Natalie

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Speaker 2: Oh now do we don't be confused. This is a question that comes up not infrequently

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Speaker 2: in weddings.

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Speaker 1: You want to help your guests but you can't,

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Speaker 2: you want to help your guests but

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Speaker 1: then hold them through everything

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Speaker 2: limit to what you can do it on some level people are going to be responsible for getting themselves to your wedding and and away in the end and you don't buy everyone a plane ticket and this is in some ways an extension of that travel. It's really nice that you're thinking about a charter bus and you're doing what you can

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Speaker 2: and definitely the place to include the information about that is on that details enclosure card that you're talking about. If you've got a wedding website, I would definitely double up that information there as well. And whenever you've got an important piece of information about a wedding,

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Speaker 2: you can also start that family word of mouth mill going also definitely spread word among the other people that are helping organize and plan and ask them to tell the people that they talk to.

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Speaker 2: So you're going to get that word out to as many people as possible that way and then you're gonna back up information on the website and the enclosure card

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Speaker 2: and as far as how you do it, there there are a couple of ways that you can do it. You can be specific about the parameters for how you sign up. You put a cut off date for the sign ups so that people know they're responsible for booking a seat on the transportation that

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Speaker 1: you've provided

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Speaker 2: by a certain date and that lets you know who's trying and it gives them a a window

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Speaker 2: and then

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Speaker 2: when that window comes up, when that last date to sign up for that bus has come up, whether you're on it or off it. You know whether or not you need to book a car, organize your own transportation. If that busses filled up and you hear that there's not a space on the bus that's also going to provide that information that

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Speaker 2: that you're going to need to have your own transportation to the wedding and that's not unreasonable. People can rent cars, people can carpool, they would

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Speaker 1: have to figure this out if you didn't book a bus so they shouldn't feel badly that the bus you booked can only fit half the wedding guests on it

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Speaker 2: and they can designate a driver, they can take care of themselves, although it is, it is nice the way you're thinking of providing a charter. Also.

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Speaker 1: I had friends who did this sort of thing and and we actually paid for our seat on the bus because it was a six hour bus ride from Brooklyn to Virginia. It was just another way of kind of getting people down there.

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Speaker 1: Um because so many of their friends were in Brooklyn and it made it easier for someone like me coming from Vermont, I could fly to new york and then join everyone on the bus.

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Speaker 1: And what they did is is once the bus was full, they sent out an email with the list to everyone and they sent out, you know, when there were only so many seats remaining, they sent out another reminder to people just to really give people as much of a chance to get on that bus as they could.

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Speaker 1: And then after that it was the reminder, you know, okay, so this is the list for the bus if you're not on it,

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Speaker 1: definitely, you know, find a ride, contact us if you need help. You know, maybe getting a ride

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Speaker 2: because

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Speaker 1: sometimes people might not know each other and you know, if you're that one friend from summer camp that you still kept in touch with,

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Speaker 1: you know, it would be nice to have a little help saying, hey, you know, do you know of anyone who is at the same hotel so I could talk with them about doing a ride

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Speaker 1: and that's just being helpful,

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Speaker 2: it makes perfect sense. I, I like that little addition boy. I wish I was so well organized that I had an email list with everybody in the wedding on

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Speaker 1: it.

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Speaker 2: Um Natalie, we really hope that helps, good luck with the rest of the planning and best wishes on your coming wedding.

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Speaker 1: Here's kind of a different, different type of tipping question. We definitely don't always get this one.

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Speaker 1: Recently my mother has experienced a run of bad health. I'm so sorry. My siblings have been wondering what the etiquette is of tipping private ambulance and medical cabdrivers, nurses aides and therapists who have provided exceptional care.

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Speaker 2: There are a couple of ways that you might approach this question from my perspective. And the first

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Speaker 2: is is one that, that I'm pretty confident about and that's for the nurses and the therapists. The salaried professionals that were involved in the care for your, for your mother and you don't necessarily tip those people, they're professionals, they're doing their job and that's part of the work that they do and they don't work for gratuities. They don't work for tips. So

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Speaker 2: in that situation a thank you gift to share for a nursing station or a nursing home floor staff

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Speaker 2: is a route that some people will go. They'll send flowers or a fruit basket that everyone can share and participate in as a a gesture, but it's not a monetary tip for the services that they have rendered

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Speaker 2: for someone that's functioning as a private driver. If they're part of a company that does driving, you might very well tip them the way you would, anybody who was part of a car service and you would tip them accordingly. One of the questions you can ask yourself to differentiate between those two groups of people is am I dealing with someone who is a salaried professional?

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Speaker 2: Or am I dealing with someone who's working for an hourly wage where tips is a part of the expected pay structure for that person.

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Speaker 2: So nurses and doctors, even though the care that they provide might be incredibly personal, it might be very personal care. It might feel like it's, it's deserving of that kind of an expression of gratitude.

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Speaker 2: They are doing their job and they're, they're in some ways fortunate to have a job that allows them to be that way with people, but that's the way you can look at that situation. So if they're a salaried professional,

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Speaker 2: they're not working for tips. And in some way it can even be minimizing to offer a tip to someone who's working in that capacity.

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Speaker 1: So the other thing that you can do that, we recommend any time you're uncertain about whether to tip someone or not is to actually call the agency that hires them and ask if tips are appropriate. Um

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Speaker 1: you know, during the holidays, we often see people wanting to tip nurses and staff that are regularly a part of your lives and totally understand it? It's it's really important that you are recognizing these people and the great care that they give.

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Speaker 1: Um So I think the best thing to do is actually call up and say what is your policy on tipping? Is it normal? Is a gift? Okay. Is there a limit on what I can give or or

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Speaker 1: suggestions for what I can give?

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Speaker 2: This question will also come up around hospice aides and hospice volunteers all the same type of stuff. They are definitely part of that category of folks that are that are instructed not to take cash gifts. And precisely because people are feeling so

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Speaker 1: appreciate

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Speaker 2: appreciative that they're likely to be offering it and they want to keep the focus on the service.

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Speaker 1: Now this morning I had a 9:00 appointment with my massage therapist and I wasn't sure because I've met her through my chiropractor and she works on me whenever I go to the chiropractor

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Speaker 1: but I have gotten her as a masseuse to do some continued work on me. Well that's the thing. I go to the chiropractor's office, I'm in the chiropractors rooms when she's giving me these massages. So

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Speaker 1: I wasn't sure and I just said you know what rather than him and han be unsure I'm just going to ask? So I said lisa you know what what's the deal do you accept tips? What when is it a part of? And she said when it's massage therapy for the chiropractor, appointments, No tip. Typically even just massage therapy, you don't tip that either.

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Speaker 1: But she said it's it's totally up to you. I think she does a phenomenal job. She fits me in whenever she can. She often will come in early so that I can get an appointment before work.

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Speaker 1: So I tip her. But when I go in and it's a part of getting an adjustment later by the chiropractor. I do not tip and she said she's fine with either

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Speaker 2: way. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Our next question begins. Hello Dan and Lizzie. I'm hoping you'll help me with doing the right thing. My brother and sister in law are currently separated after 20 plus years of marriage. It will likely end in divorce.

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Speaker 2: Should I give her birthday and holiday presents still while they are separated. How about if they divorce? Do I still give her gifts? We all live in the same city. Thank you. An answer shall be greatly appreciated.

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Speaker 1: I love this question because um

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Speaker 1: it reminds us that when when divorce or separation or even a breakup occurs in a in a long term relationship that the connection to the person who isn't the family member is often still close and they are someone um you know in our family uh we are actually very close with

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Speaker 1: sort of the no it's true in our family we're very close with the X's

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Speaker 1: of the family that, you know, I I still see um you know, previous wives or husbands from marriages that have dissolved and they're still wonderful people. And what I always loved was our grandfather and our grandmother, Madam, Poppy, as we called them. Um they always told uh the in law who was now becoming a

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Speaker 1: outlaw. No, and and ex in law um a former in law that you know, please know that you will you will always be a member of our family, and we will always love you. And

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Speaker 1: that has always held very true, and I can only think of one family member who just of his own accord kind of went off and lived his own life. And other than that,

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Speaker 1: they were all still very close with my grandparents or grandparents. And um I love being a part of a family that celebrates and embraces family that way. So, my advice to you is that um I would still send her a birthday or present. You have a relationship with this person separate from the person that they were married to. And you are allowed to have that relationship. I would not sit around talking badly about your family member all the time together. I would not encourage it to become divisive, I wouldn't encourage it to become something that's difficult, but I think your your generosity of spirit is wonderful. You want to reach out to her on her birthday and at holidays.

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Speaker 1: Um, and not just while they're separated, but yes, once they're divorced, I'm

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Speaker 2: reminded II lizzie, I love your answer to this question. I think it's really

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Speaker 1: thank you.

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Speaker 2: And and you're reminding me of

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Speaker 2: something that you taught me a little while ago, that the idea of a nontraditional family and that today we have all kinds of, we have so many nontraditional families in our world. I think we always have uh that the non traditional family

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Speaker 2: is the traditional family. And um, just because the family isn't the same nuclear family

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Speaker 1: that you

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Speaker 2: Saw on a sitcom in the 1950s doesn't mean that it's not still a family and families have all kinds of shapes and sizes and that we treat each other with care and respect. And if you still feel close to this person and you still feel connected them in a way that

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Speaker 2: that you want to celebrate and share those important events, it's entirely appropriate to do so.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and you you do be warned, you might get backlash from the family member who is divorcing this person, but I think that's where you stand up and say, you know, jim I understand that you're upset. I can understand your perspective. However, I do have a friendship and I care about this person and I will be maintaining it, but I won't,

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Speaker 1: you know, I won't be bringing it into our family relationship

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Speaker 1: and put up that boundary, but allow yourself to have to maintain that friendship.

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Speaker 1: Our

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Speaker 2: next listener wants to know about two months ago I started volunteering at my local botanical garden. I had been looking for a volunteering opportunity and thought it would be both fun and fulfilling as I have always enjoyed visiting the garden, especially to see the wildflowers in bloom. However, it's turning out to be a bit of a chore. I'm working in the gift shop and while the people are great,

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Speaker 2: I'm just not enjoying myself. The gardens environmental mission is not something I'm passionate about

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Speaker 2: and as an introvert, I'm not really comfortable walking around the shop, striking up conversations with customers. This is something they really push for from their volunteers.

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Speaker 2: I'd really like to move on to another opportunity where my skills can be put to better use and I'll have more fun. How can I handle this situation? Tactfully, I feel bad about abandoning ship since I've just been trained and spring is by far the gardens busiest season, sincerely stuck.

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Speaker 1: Well, stuck. It's your time and it's your choice. If this isn't a good fit for you, then it's time to just say so and move on to another volunteer opportunity and enjoy the garden as a visitor. Um, it's, it's not your obligation to stay. If it's not working out, you also have to understand that the garden is gonna want people who are going to be the right fit.

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Speaker 1: So you're doing them a favor. Don't feel like you're abandoning them in their worst time of need. Um, it's better to, to have employees that are really great and really willing to work than to have employees or volunteers, excuse me, who really aren't feeling it, aren't enjoying it and are going to become, let's face it resentful and it happens, This is your time and you're not being paid for it. I think it's perfectly okay for you to just say, hey, listen,

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Speaker 1: I've decided this isn't a good fit for me. I'm definitely going to come back as a visitor.

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Speaker 2: I would affirm that as it's so important with any charitable giving or volunteer work that you take care of yourself. So you're operating from a strong foundation and you really can give in the spirit of generosity that that's important for that work to, to be good. Um,

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Speaker 1: at the same

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Speaker 2: time I'm gonna Siskel and Ebert and play flip the coin and just talk about the, the side of the coin when I played hockey as a kid

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Speaker 2: and the season wasn't going great and you just want to quit And your mom says, no, it's important that you finished the season, you signed up for this. It's important that you follow through and finish your commitments and I think that it's important to have that balance in the equation, that if you have volunteered and they're counting on you that you've got the weight of that in your mind

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Speaker 2: that you follow through on your commitments and you do what you say you're going to do so that you're not frivolous or capricious about, um, the way that you make commitments and the way that you volunteer your time, because it is true that in life things that you volunteer to do are going to be difficult and they're going to be challenging and you don't always want to be abandoning them.

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Speaker 1: So I think it's really different if you choose to volunteer on

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Speaker 1: thanks, giving it a food shelf or something like that where it's a very specific volunteer event or task.

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Speaker 1: But I think it's different when this is ongoing and in her particular situation,

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Speaker 1: she's not doing the things that she would love to be doing with this volunteer opportunity that's gonna enrich her and make her feel better about it. I think that I think you're right when it comes to something like

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Speaker 1: a short term team commitment, like you said season is not going well, you stick, you stick it out, you support your teammates, that sort of thing. I think that when it it to me seems very open ended and it's not, you know, specific to, uh,

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Speaker 1: event that they're doing. I would never want someone to volunteer for, um, you know, a stupid example, but like a bake sale or volunteer to help the kids in the school play and back out on that.

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Speaker 1: But I do think that when it's it's long term like this and, and she, it's really not actually what she had expected and it's taking her out of a place that she's remotely comfortable in.

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Speaker 2: I definitely hear that. I also, just in the last sentence of this question, I hear an awareness of that flip side and that I feel bad about abandoning ship since I've just been trained and spring is the busiest season. Maybe it's that you give them a two weeks notice or you let them know that you'll stick with them until the end of the month, Maybe that's three weeks, maybe that's 1.5, but

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Speaker 2: you let them know that you'll help them get through that busy season. It seems like there's some awareness there that there's a pressure on the organization

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Speaker 1: if you,

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Speaker 1: I

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Speaker 2: feel good about it, that might give you a nice a nice out

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Speaker 2: stuck. We hope that helps. We hope you feel a little less stuck and that you enjoy this gardening spring season as much as you know that we're going to. Well now wasn't that better? Look at the effect of a little politeness?

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Speaker 1: Thanks to everyone for sending in your questions and remember we love updates if we answered your question on the show or if you have a comment about one of our questions, feel free to send it in. You can also submit your question to awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com or send it in via facebook or twitter. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette so that we know you want it on the show.

00:25:01

Speaker 1: So I was really excited to do this postscript because what we're going to talk about is actually my favorite of the Emily Post books. At least that I've actually read

00:25:11

Speaker 1: how to behave though A debutante. It is my favorite of the Emily Post novels and it chronicles the life and opinions of Muriel as

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Speaker 2: quote

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Speaker 1: overheard by Emily Post end quote.

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Speaker 1: Um here's the opening to how to behave though a debutante and it is supposed to be comical. So

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Speaker 1: please don't think that this is who Emily Post was

00:25:35

Speaker 1: as lots of people think a debutant leads a butterfly life. It would probably be as well to describe an average day to begin with. You wake up quite early about nine o'clock. In fact, you are generally awakened by the telephone. You of course give a special list to your own made or to the butler if he's worthy of confidence

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Speaker 1: so that you're never wakened except for someone on the list.

00:26:00

Speaker 1: It is really necessary for you to have a telephone extension by your bed because it is really impossible to have to sit in the library in your wrapper and bed slippers with the parlor maid brushing around. When you could be comfortable breakfasting in bed and having conversation at the same time.

00:26:17

Speaker 1: You talk on the phone until the very last minute when you simply have to rush

00:26:21

Speaker 1: into your clothes to get to your younger league class. And that is the first page. It's a very small book, which is why the 22 paragraphs constitute the first page of how to behave though a debutante. Um that is also your introduction to Muriel, our absurd debutante who we absolutely adore

00:26:40

Speaker 2: ironic hipsters, take notes.

00:26:43

Speaker 1: Oh, man, it was lovely. It was actually published in 1928. So it's actually one of the few books that Emily wrote. That is a novel that came after etiquette, which was published in 1922.

00:26:55

Speaker 1: We know, she had this career as a writer beforehand, but this is fiction that came afterwards almost

00:27:00

Speaker 2: At the height of her fame, but at the the full flush of her new fame etiquette came out in 22, been published nonstop ever since they couldn't print it fast enough.

00:27:09

Speaker 1: Well, and what I think so wonderful about this is here, she totally captures a young 18 year old sort of sense. And and and

00:27:18

Speaker 1: And a young, very spoiled 18 year olds, vapid nous, and and that sort of thing. And she captured and she's like 58 when she's writing this, you know,

00:27:25

Speaker 2: And then successfully sued anonymously writing as if she's an 18 year old girl, spoofing herself. I don't think she

00:27:33

Speaker 1: was quite like this,

00:27:34

Speaker 2: but like spoofing people's impression of the type of world that she was describing. And

00:27:39

Speaker 1: absolutely,

00:27:40

Speaker 1: and it was it was just, it's such a deliciously written book because it's it's just so this character is so strong. You immediately from two paragraphs, you get a sense of who she is, what she's like, what her life is about to be. On the next page. She talks about, you know,

00:27:58

Speaker 1: the volunteering that comes with being in the younger league class,

00:28:02

Speaker 1: Um where you don't actually use any of your skills, but you do that you learn in the class, but you do things for others. And she teaches basketball, which she was never very good at what she did understand at least. And I'm thinking like in late 1920s this like

00:28:17

Speaker 1: you know, rich debutante teaching basketball. The kids

00:28:21

Speaker 2: clueless. It's Alicia Silverstone collecting skis for Pismo Beach relief fund,

00:28:25

Speaker 1: totally clueless.

00:28:27

Speaker 2: And it's Emily behind clueless. Just it's so revealing of her sense of

00:28:31

Speaker 1: humor,

00:28:32

Speaker 2: her sort of

00:28:34

Speaker 2: her self awareness. Also as someone who was dispensing this advice. It's

00:28:39

Speaker 1: a wonderfully fun find definitely check out like

00:28:42

Speaker 1: antique bookstores. Did you?

00:28:44

Speaker 2: Oh yes, you got another. Yes. And if you could find in an antique bookstore, give yourself the tree just open the first cover and there's this, the drawings,

00:28:52

Speaker 1: drawings are amazing.

00:28:54

Speaker 2: So that the drawings in it are are are remarkable. Um did Peter used them in the essential manners.

00:28:59

Speaker 1: Fabulous illustrations. We were able to use one for the cover of essential manners for men and after that, I don't think we were able to get licensed to use the others. So we had someone create very similar

00:29:09

Speaker 2: artwork is funny,

00:29:11

Speaker 1: 19 twenties style,

00:29:12

Speaker 2: Classy and there's a, in the very front there's a drawing that is meant to be a diagram of the 400.

00:29:19

Speaker 2: So it's it's, it shows the 400 where the it was a group of society people in New York who were called the 400 and apparently they fit in the a certain dining room.

00:29:30

Speaker 2: There was the people that were maybe the Vanderbilt ballroom

00:29:34

Speaker 1: because it is, it almost looks like a seating chart.

00:29:36

Speaker 2: It was a seating chart. And to be in the 400 was to have a seat in this particular socialite ballroom and who was invited that year. And there were the satellite, what was so fascinating to me because it brought home in a very concrete way what the 400 was and who they were and how they were defined.

00:29:52

Speaker 2: And there were these satellite dining rooms where you could get close to the 400, you could be on the precipice of the verge of the being in it really, it really is. And it's such a window into that world,

00:30:04

Speaker 1: as we said, deliciously entertaining. And definitely if you can get your hands on a copy of it, it is a delightful book. Fun read, easy, easy, easy read.

00:30:13

Speaker 1: Um and I don't know, you might even be able to find it online. I'm not sure.

00:30:17

Speaker 2: Yeah, harder to find copies of how to behave though. A debutante. So definitely all you book hunters and sleuths out there. Good luck. Happy hunting!

00:30:28

Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:30:36

Speaker 2: Okay,

00:30:39

Speaker 2: mm hmm.

00:30:41

Speaker 2: We like to end each episode of awesome etiquette with an etiquette salute to remind all of us about all the goodwill and good etiquette that there is out there in the world. Today's etiquette salute has a slightly different structure than usual and we hope

00:30:58

Speaker 1: it's, it's, it's definitely a different salute. It's kind of interesting

00:31:01

Speaker 2: and you'll see why we can't break them up. So here's your etiquette salute and question.

00:31:07

Speaker 2: Good afternoon lizzie and dan, thank you so much for the podcast. I feel like I'm involved in a lively conversation with friends on my daily commute. Thank you so much. We couldn't hope for anything better from the podcast.

00:31:18

Speaker 2: My issue,

00:31:19

Speaker 2: My fiance is a police officer, in spite of my gentle as possible protestations, he has recently taken to carrying a pistol most of the time. This is legal for him as a peace officer here in colorado.

00:31:30

Speaker 2: We recently had dinner at our friend's home, evidently he had attached the gun to his belt that evening. I did not notice it. His shirt covered it. However, one of our hosts or possibly their housemate noticed it.

00:31:41

Speaker 2: My salute to my friend Laura, our hostess when jesse and I were out to dinner a few weeks after that occasion. She mentioned to me that this was really not acceptable in the most polite and kind manner. She casually and delicately mentioned to me that it was an unpleasant surprise to some people that a weapon was brought into their home. Without any mention.

00:32:00

Speaker 2: I was so impressed that she did not name an upset party. Nor did she make it feel like she was confronting me personally about the offensive behavior. I understood clearly from laura that they were not angry and did not hold it against us, but I did hear loudly and clearly that it would not be acceptable in the future.

00:32:17

Speaker 2: My question is, how to say nicely to my fiance that he is not allowed my word to carry it into any of our friends homes in the future. At least not without their permission. I'm not interested in stating who was upset by it. However, do I need to come clean to him about who it was that noted it?

00:32:32

Speaker 2: I don't want him to feel angry or defensive about these particular friends and I'm fairly certain that other friends would have the same sentiment In any case in keeping with the golden rule. I would want him to mention it to me in keeping with the platinum rule. I think he would want me to take his side and defend his right to carry it anywhere. Whether or not I agree with it.

00:32:50

Speaker 2: That is my conundrum. I love going out with good friends and particularly love to be invited to dinner parties and do not want to jeopardize our social relationships for behavior, which even I do not condone

00:33:01

Speaker 2: thank you for any help you may offer. And a huge pat on the back to my friend Laura for kindly broaching the subject with me kindly but directly and so effectively my best to you both jane

00:33:12

Speaker 1: Jane. That's an interesting 1.0

00:33:15

Speaker 2: jane. What fun. And, and, and I do appreciate the salute here. I

00:33:20

Speaker 1: love the fact that there is, there is a lovely salute and she really,

00:33:23

Speaker 1: this is one of the, one of the more pleasant salutes in a strange way because it's, it's, it's an awkward topic. But um, it's a really pleasant salute because here someone was dealing with a difficult situation and clearly Laura was able to handle it in such a way that

00:33:38

Speaker 1: that jane is even grateful for it. You know, and I'm, I think that she must have really amazing tact and

00:33:45

Speaker 2: diplomacy to be able to do

00:33:46

Speaker 1: that. So kudos to laura

00:33:48

Speaker 1: as for how to handle the gun. Yeah, the fiance. And I love the fact that you're thinking about the golden rule and the platinum rule. And you can even tell him that you can tell him, hey, I'm looking to think about what would I want someone to do. I'd want you to talk to me about it. What would you want me to do? I think you'd want me to just be on your side about this,

00:34:11

Speaker 1: but I need to talk to you about this because it is, it is creating uncomfortable situations for other people. And it was just made mention to me that

00:34:21

Speaker 1: it was surprising to people for you to have your gun on you at a dinner party among friends. And for me personally,

00:34:30

Speaker 1: I like guns. I'm, I'm, you know, on on the fence about the issue personally. Um, but I, I don't find it necessary for someone to have to carry a gun to dinner at a friend's house. Um, I think that if it's work and I don't know officer rules of gun, I don't know if they tell you not to leave it in the car or something like that.

00:34:52

Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I don't know if there's some protocol that I'm then stepping on in terms of what he was taught at whatever academy he attended. But

00:35:01

Speaker 1: I would prefer for that gun not to be on, you know, holstered and on your belt during a social function like that. That's a sit down dinner with a small group of friends and I would

00:35:12

Speaker 2: defer to the host wishes there. I mean it's in the same way that if your host,

00:35:18

Speaker 2: I asked you to take off the hat, take off a hat

00:35:21

Speaker 1: or

00:35:22

Speaker 2: shoes and

00:35:23

Speaker 2: comes up not infrequently, but you, you follow your host lead. Um, when in Rome do as the romans or as peter says when at Tommy's house follow Tommy's rules.

00:35:32

Speaker 1: Um,

00:35:32

Speaker 2: and I think this is a case where

00:35:35

Speaker 2: however, um, whatever your personal political feelings are, you want to respect the wishes of a homeowner whose home you're visiting,

00:35:42

Speaker 1: right? I think so too. And so I would, I would hope that your fiance will just take note that it's, it's not about, you know, trying to um

00:35:52

Speaker 1: step on his rights to carry it or his need to carry it. But I think time and place is really important and maybe when you guys are out and about, he's going to have it on him. But

00:36:03

Speaker 1: when you go to someone's house for that small gathering or that that family gathering, that sort of thing. That's the time where you're going to put it

00:36:10

Speaker 2: away. Some other language that might be helpful. People really think of the

00:36:13

Speaker 2: dinner table as this special place they think of as the most civil place in their lives in their world and it's a place that people really carve out time and dedicated to social interactions and maybe thinking of that as a special place, A place where

00:36:27

Speaker 2: um, particularly in a host home, you're going to defer to their wishes if there's something like a gun that makes them uncomfortable. It's their perspective. I love the way you acknowledge the golden rule and the platinum rule

00:36:37

Speaker 2: And, and, and really go to your fiance and when you raise this issue, acknowledge both sides and acknowledge his perspective because this is in that Tier two. This is a difficult conversation and he might have very different feelings than you and write off right from the start acknowledging that other perspective and its validity I think is really gonna

00:36:53

Speaker 2: put you in a good situation to have this talk

00:36:55

Speaker 1: And you know, jane take a page from your friend Laura's book. You know, you're saluting her for how well she handled a difficult conversation.

00:37:02

Speaker 1: Go back to thinking about how you felt, what made you feel comfortable and try to employ those same strategies when you talk to your fiance. But wonderful salute. Very interesting dilemma. And um we hope that that goes smoothly for you. We hope we get an update on it and just so glad that you have a friend like Laura in your

00:37:21

Speaker 2: life.

00:37:29

Speaker 2: That's our show for today as always thank you for listening and spending some of your day with us. We hope you have a wonderful rest of your week

00:37:36

Speaker 2: and don't forget there's no show without you. So send us your questions, your etiquette salutes and your suggestions to awesome etiquette Emily Post dot com

00:37:44

Speaker 2: if you like what you hear. Please don't be shy tweet it facebook post it And of course you can subscribe on Itunes and leave us a review on facebook where the Emily Post Institute on twitter. I'm at Daniel underscore Post

00:37:56

Speaker 1: and I'm at lizzie a post.

00:37:58

Speaker 2: Or you can visit our website Emily Post dot com. Our theme music was composed and performed by bob Wagner,

00:38:09

Speaker 1: mm hmm.