Episode 33 - Cutting The Face Painting Line
Speaker 1: as I'm trying to pretend being you, I can feel incredibly uncomfortable at the thought of having to listen to things that are even as much as oh they gave him more, you know, I don't want to say it because I don't want her to get
Speaker 2: squeamish.
Speaker 2: Maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social courtesy, that's old fashioned
Speaker 2: act as host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person, real friendliness.
Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of awesome etiquette. Our podcast comes to you from the studios of Vermont public radio and then it's edited over in Minneapolis Minnesota, uploaded to the grand old internet and then downloaded and streamed by you.
Speaker 1: That's or streamed I guess is what it really
Speaker 2: is, but
Speaker 1: that's one well traveled podcast and as part of the infinite guest network from american public media where you can find all the very best podcasts in our humble opinion. I'm lizzie post
Speaker 2: and I'm dan post Senning from the Emily Post Institute.
Speaker 1: Yeah,
Speaker 2: good to see you because
Speaker 1: thank you. I am back.
Speaker 2: It seems like this is how our shows are starting these days. I see you for the first time in a week or two when we sit down at the microphone
Speaker 1: was a little a little a little bit of a tougher trip coming back last week from florida was a little nicer, but this was
Speaker 1: just a little, you know, it was good, it was very good to see family. Um unfortunately my aunt passed away
Speaker 2: my condolences,
Speaker 1: thank you and um she was a very, very special lady. Um and the service was, it was monday in charleston south Carolina, which is one of my favorite cities. I love it.
Speaker 1: It's incredibly beautiful. The people are incredibly kind.
Speaker 1: It was dan, unbelievable to see how my uncle's friends rallied around him. Um My, my uncle has a big family. We, we are on that side of my family. This is not the post side of the family, a really large family. I mean he has six brothers and sisters that he grew up with.
Speaker 1: For that are his biological, he was a family member that was adopted into, you know, a more immediate family
Speaker 1: and then three step siblings since my grandmother got married later in life. Um, not all of them were able to attend, but it's a lot of family coming in and his friends
Speaker 1: all like
Speaker 1: um I don't want to say donated but offered their houses. Um my cousin, my and a couple of my aunts and I all stayed in one of their friends houses. They were gone for the week and they offered it up, we showed up, they had food ready for us. They had beds made that, you know, every room had its own bathroom. I mean the house was amazing,
Speaker 1: but um, it was just like all any, any thought that we needed to have about logistics was taken care of.
Speaker 2: I was gonna say you felt taken care of
Speaker 1: it was like you could actually focus on what you were there to do, which was to be there for my uncle and my cousins and, and for each other and, and to really um celebrate Suzanne and
Speaker 1: that was amazing. It was amazing to have the relief of getting to do that. And I know my mother put in a huge amount of organizing and
Speaker 1: my uncle George put in a huge amount of organizing but to see his friends really stepped up. I mean even to the point where I went on my morning jog
Speaker 1: and I was, I got a little lost in the neighborhood even though I've got like, you know, my gps on and everything. I'm kind of
Speaker 2: like, yeah,
Speaker 1: and you're trying to figure it out. You're like, okay, I can do this without looking at the darn map. But sure enough like one of the guys wound up walking next to me on my cool down was a friend who had known about Susan's passing and
Speaker 1: and helped walk me back to the house and just like, you know, just because he was like, I'll walk with you and it's like just to be there for you. And it was just so, it was so nice and comforting. It was truly amazing.
Speaker 2: Thank you for sharing because it's, it's really reminding me that we tend to think of funerals as sad times and, and there there is a certain sadness. Obviously
Speaker 1: I cried a lot
Speaker 2: and at the same time it really is an opportunity for families and friends to come together and support each other and you're reminding me of how often I hear these stories also and when people's lives are celebrated and
Speaker 1: well and to be able to go and help out you know it's our our listeners might not know you and I haven't really talked about it that much on the show but funerals are one of the most research things on our website. Emily Post dot com. It's it's something that you, unlike weddings where most people go through a period in their life where they go to a lot of weddings, weddings are also things that show up in movies and tv quite often
Speaker 1: funerals not so much
Speaker 2: we love talking about weddings, love talking about obvious reasons but
Speaker 1: but death and and and grieving and funerals and the process and and and sort of etiquette surrounding all of it is not something that we talk a lot about and it's not something some people are even familiar about until
Speaker 1: their forties or fifties when a parent passes away or you know they're very late twenties is often when a grandparent will pass away.
Speaker 2: There are times in life where we have a lot of funerals just like there are times when we have a lot of weddings.
Speaker 1: Yeah and or even just a funeral and because you don't have a lot of I'm actually making the point that because you don't have a lot of funerals.
Speaker 1: It's not quite until your later life that you really go through. I remember mud and poppy going through, that's what we called our grandparents on the post side.
Speaker 1: I remember going through a period where they started talking about how many of their friends were dying and that sort of thing that it's almost like later in life they go through that.
Speaker 2: And, and similarly, I remember when my parents started going through a phase, when all their friends, parents passed away and
Speaker 1: yes, it's,
Speaker 1: you know, hopefully it's something that you go through later in life
Speaker 2: and you do bring up a
Speaker 2: sort of an important etiquette point. We know that's one of the big times when people turn to Emily post because they
Speaker 1: don't know what to do.
Speaker 1: It's, it's just not something you encounter frequently and it was so, and it's
Speaker 2: important. You want to get it right and you want to, you want to do it well and there are a lot of people involved, it
Speaker 1: is so much respect was such a huge aspect. I felt like it and,
Speaker 1: and George's friends were so, um, like every time I would say thank you, even just for picking up my bag and putting it into the car or something or, or you know, I would say, you know, gosh, it's so amazing that you guys have organized it all because of course we did. It was just like of course we would take care of you all right now and
Speaker 1: it was just I was so grateful. It was so wonderful. And it really gave our family a wonderful chance to celebrate and grieve and support
Speaker 1: and share with each other. Um This moment. That's a really difficult moment for all of us. So it was man,
Speaker 2: well I'm glad to hear it and thank you for sharing with all of us.
Speaker 1: It was really fantastic. Do you think we should get to some upbeat questions? Some interesting questions. What do you think?
Speaker 2: I think we should?
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 1: Mhm
Speaker 2: Sure you're right. There's so much to learn how to do. Sure there's a lot to learn but it's worth it and learning is easy. One way is by watching others on each and every episode of awesome etiquette. We take your questions on how to behave. Let's get started.
Speaker 2: This question comes from the twitterverse. Coral robot wants to know
Speaker 1: I'm
Speaker 2: really uncomfortable thinking about and discussing biology and medical things. Even just hearing or reading anatomical or medical words. Makes my arms turn to jelly and really distracts me from whatever else is going on in my day. Is there a way I can politely ask my friends not to share personal medical details about themselves or their families,
Speaker 2: particularly in situations where my friend is concerned about an ailing parent or relative in the hospital.
Speaker 2: Thanks for considering my question and thanks for hosting such a fantastic podcast.
Speaker 1: You
Speaker 2: are most welcome coral robot.
Speaker 1: That's such a it's such a different question because on the one hand, I'm getting the sense that um
Speaker 2: she
Speaker 1: wants to
Speaker 1: see, she wants to be there for a friend, especially when they're talking about an ailing parent. Like she says, you know, it's like I want to be there for them. But I can't I literally can't do this. Like I can't be I'm not the person to do this with
Speaker 2: the sight of blood makes me faint.
Speaker 1: Exactly. Um
Speaker 1: I would say uh that definitely when when it's a close friend, when someone starts getting into it, you can say Sarah, I definitely want to be here for you. But just so you know, I am very squeamish about medical terms and information. So
Speaker 1: I want to be here in the best possible way. But
Speaker 2: let's keep the discussion general so that I can be as supportive as I want to be. Let
Speaker 1: me let me help you talk about your emotions or something like that. But I like that I have, I I really will either get sicker or you know, feel very um you can even hear it. It starts being like as I'm trying to pretend being you. I can feel incredibly uncomfortable at the thought of having to listen to things that are even as much as
Speaker 1: oh they gave him more.
Speaker 1: Well, I don't want to say it because I don't want her to get
Speaker 2: squeamish. You
Speaker 1: know, um I can understand um set your
Speaker 2: boundaries, let people know where those are.
Speaker 1: Exactly. My next point is that you want to let your friends know about your boundaries and give them examples of what those boundaries are.
Speaker 1: I can handle hearing the emotional side of what you're going through,
Speaker 1: but medical terms, even so much as instruments that were used or um tests that were run, unfortunately really just they affect me in a way that I'm so sensitive to um if it's a stranger because you know, sometimes you're like at a cocktail party and someone decides to talk about you or like I sit on the airplane and I'm like really you're telling me about, okay, we're going there and I'm trapped. I can't get out from this.
Speaker 1: Um If it's a stranger or someone like kind of unexpectedly starts talking about it and it's really going to cause you to faint or feel ill or you know, be so distracted, you can't work. It's ok to interrupt and say something like jeremy, I don't mean to interrupt or sir, I don't mean to interrupt. Um I do care about what you've been through, but I am so sensitive to the subject matter that I'm gonna have to excuse myself or ask that we change the subject before you go any further and I think that's kind of like a,
Speaker 2: I
Speaker 1: care, but I can't
Speaker 2: and both of your, your sort of your sample examples. you start off by saying, you know, I care about what you're saying. It's not that I don't care that I don't want to hear it, that I am unsympathetic.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. So
Speaker 1: Coral robot. We hope that gives you some some suggestions and we hope your life is a little less
Speaker 1: squeamish.
Speaker 1: Our next listener writes, I recently moved into a home in a development.
Speaker 1: My neighbor across the street has recently had his home redone.
Speaker 1: We have the same layout of the home. He invited me to see his home. I told him it looks great and asked him if he wouldn't mind if I took some photos as I always like to get ideas of what I could do with my home. He said, sure. He even posed for one of the pictures later that day when I told my wife about seeing the home and that I took pictures, my wife and her mother
Speaker 1: both said that what I did was improper
Speaker 1: that you should not take photos of someone's home. It's rude and impolite. My question is how rude and impolite is it if I asked
Speaker 1: and I'm thinking if I asked and he said yes and he posed for the photos.
Speaker 2: I love this question. It's a very contemporary question. Everybody's carrying these cameras. These phones around with them everywhere they go now and making decisions about when it's appropriate to take pictures and when it's appropriate to share pictures is is a huge new area of etiquette.
Speaker 2: Um, and there might have been a
Speaker 2: a courtesy at one point when picture taking was a more formal affair that you didn't ask to take pictures of someone's home. But this question I see coming up, I I I hear in my head the voice that I just heard from you, well, if you asked and they said it was okay, what's the problem? We were all taking so many pictures, so many places and what is a place where someone
Speaker 2: should expect privacy? Even privacy from being asked if someone would take a picture. And
Speaker 1: I think you're
Speaker 2: okay here. I think um it's it's a little bit of an individual situation, but
Speaker 1: you never know how someone's gonna react. They might if clearly if he had asked the mother, if he was a neighbor of the mothers, the mother would have been like,
Speaker 1: offended,
Speaker 2: maybe it might have and might have been felt awkward saying no.
Speaker 1: Yeah. At
Speaker 2: the same time, I think that's that's some great territory where I think we have to be comfortable straying into that great territories. Why you asked,
Speaker 1: I put it this way, I don't think, dan and I have ever heard of a rule where it said it's impolite to take photos at other people's homes or of their homes, especially if you've asked. You know, I've never heard of that as a rule. So I don't think there's a rule of etiquette that says it's impolite to do this?
Speaker 1: The only thing I ever thought that could have come when I was thinking of this is,
Speaker 1: um I wonder if their premise was at all based on the fact that this was a new remodel and he's asking because he might want to do a remodel like this, and that's kind of like that thing where it's like,
Speaker 1: oh, I got this new thing and you're immediately like, can I borrow it? You know, it's like, give him give him a little bit of time first, but I still don't think that what our listener did was impolite.
Speaker 2: I think I think he's in pretty good territory, but I love that there's a discussion about, I love people are thinking about it. And the little sort of add on that I would give is that
Speaker 2: as long as you're not sharing pictures of someone else's kids or home online, that that that might start to what are you gonna do with the picture? Okay, I'm going to look at it to get inspiration. I'm totally, I'm inspired. I love what you've done with this house.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm
Speaker 2: not going to copy a board for board material for material, but this gives me an idea of how you might use this space, or
Speaker 1: Okay, flip side of this question, what would you do if if you asked? And the person said, well, what do you plan to do with them or if they said no, I'm not comfortable with that. Well then, no, I'm not comfortable. That's easy. Yeah.
Speaker 2: What do you plan to do with uh look back and be reminded of this afternoon when I sit down with the designer. When
Speaker 1: you sit down with the designer. Yeah. What if, because I've heard it,
Speaker 2: I want to show my wife.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she
Speaker 2: would, she would be so impressed. You'd be blown away by what you've done. That
Speaker 1: person is then like, you know, I don't want every home on the block to look like my home. I'm just making it difficult for fun. This is just for, I'm just curious. So
Speaker 2: I would never, I would never copy that.
Speaker 2: That's
Speaker 1: when you would start being, oh no. Or or that's when you just back
Speaker 2: up totally and completely.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay, cool. Well we hope that that helps. Um, I still come down on the side of our listener. I don't think that this was rude or impolite and I think he did the right thing.
Speaker 2: And if the neighbor was uncomfortable. I also don't think the neighbors should have felt bad saying, you know, we just had it redone. I'd prefer not.
Speaker 1: There you go.
Speaker 2: Our next question has to do with gifts. I love the beginning.
Speaker 2: Hi dan and Emily or lizzie with a Y or Z with an I
Speaker 1: E someone has been truly listening.
Speaker 2: Someone really has been
Speaker 1: listening. I
Speaker 2: am so in love with your podcast. My son and I listen on our way to and from preschool. It's been a great way to start early conversations about etiquette and thoughtful manners. So thank you. I
Speaker 1: love all the little kids that we have listening to the podcast in the car with their parents and apparently
Speaker 2: this was me and my mother just all the time driving around talking, talking. Anyway, it takes me
Speaker 1: it takes
Speaker 2: me back to what my mom told me. My childhood was
Speaker 1: like,
Speaker 2: this question continues. My question is similar to one I've heard you discuss previously regarding gift giving to kids and lack of acknowledgment every year for their birthdays and christmas. My husband and I sent all seven of our nieces and nephews all on my husband's side. A small gift. None of their parents ever send my kids gift for any occasion nor do they acknowledge the gifts we send, no calls, no notes.
Speaker 2: I don't know if there's any reason my in laws don't send gifts, Maybe they can't afford it or if they really are absent minded enough never to acknowledge my kids birthdays or the holidays. Is there a polite way to bring this up without seeming like I'm asking for gifts. I also don't want to pry into their personal affairs or discuss money in any way.
Speaker 2: I really don't want to stop sending gifts because I don't want to punish the kids and because I really do enjoy it.
Speaker 2: But I'm growing tired of the one sided relationship. I'm sure it won't be long before my kids also realize what's happening. Thanks for your wise guidance through a sticky situation.
Speaker 1: Ah, so I've seen this handled a couple different ways. Lots of families set up guidelines when Children are young, kind of when the,
Speaker 1: when, when the generation starts to really become a group of kids or when it's more than just one family that has kids, um, they start saying, you know, okay, our, our uncles, aunts and cousins going to send birthday gifts, send christmas gifts or
Speaker 1: birthdays are off limits, but christmas we're going to do like what we do in the post family and the coward side of my family.
Speaker 1: My mother's maiden name is coward. Um, is we do the gift exchange among the cousins. So one cousin gives to one cousin and another cousin receives. So it's like a little, you know, um, secret santa around Robin round
Speaker 2: Robin, everybody gets one and its cycles and
Speaker 1: gives one. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Um, but it is a way when you have lots of kids or lots of aunts and uncles to not either a overwhelm the kids with lots of gifts or to get them expecting that they get a gift from absolutely everybody or it's another way to, you know, just kind of know what everyone expects and what everyone's comfortable with. So getting together with your family and saying, hey guys, I realized we never talked about this
Speaker 2: and
Speaker 1: I'd love to just have this conversation so that we kind of know moving forward what to expect and and what everyone is comfortable with and would like
Speaker 1: um because it works on both sides, it works on the side of, I don't want the kids to be spoiled. And it also works on the side of isn't it great to be generous and and want to give
Speaker 2: avoids a lot of confusion on both sides of the equation. I think about the costs because the question comes up of costs, can people afford it? And I think there's there's a couple different kinds of costs for some people. It's monetary and for some people it's time, energy and mental
Speaker 1: energy
Speaker 2: and and whether it's true or not, there might be one parent out there that feels like they just don't have time. The cost is another gift that I have to
Speaker 1: remember and put my phone and it doesn't feel guilty and it's so awful
Speaker 2: to manage a set of contacts. But for some people it is that type of organization is difficult
Speaker 1: and good point.
Speaker 2: Clearly it's something that that that you're really good at question. Ask her. And um that is a real skill and and and kudos to you for managing it well and following through on those, those social obligations that you feel.
Speaker 1: So I would say that she doesn't have to continue sending the gifts, but she's indicated that she wants to. So I think, you know, but if it if it does hurt or upset you that they're not acknowledged and that they're that they're not
Speaker 1: returned. I know you don't give a gift to get a gift but you may just kind of be sick of the fact that that there isn't any reciprocity in this, in in in this generous nature that you have and therefore you might choose to no longer extend it and that's okay. That's perfectly okay. You shouldn't feel guilty about that. And if you're hurt or upset by the not having an acknowledgement of these gifts, no thank you cards, you can either take the passive route which is to call up and always just make sure the gifts arrived. Oh just calling to make sure the gifts right? And that might be what you have to do to get a thank you. It just might be. And the other thing is that you you can always um take the more um blunt approach and say, you know
Speaker 1: I
Speaker 1: I've just noticed that consistently the kids don't send thank you notes and that's something that's really important to me. And I would I would love it if there could be some acknowledgement that I sent a gift even just so that I know that your kids received it and liked it. It will help me know what to get them in the future or you can stop sending gifts and if you ask any seven year old what they should do when they don't, no one says thank you for a gift, they say
Speaker 1: don't send gifts anymore. Kids get it. You know,
Speaker 2: in some ways that's following the q of the relationship, like when someone repeatedly and we're talking again and again, year after year after year. In some ways you're adjusting your behavior to the reality of the relationship. And what you're talking about is really trying to,
Speaker 2: trying to mold and shape that relationship and there are some options and
Speaker 2: that's worth doing. That's worth investing in if you want the kind of relationship where
Speaker 2: your kids and their cousins send each other gifts on their birthdays or acknowledge special events or holidays in each other's lives. And, and that's part of how families are held together and it takes a lot of work to organize that cousin gift swap every year. The spreadsheet is elaborate and it has to be adjusted and updated and
Speaker 1: it is and it's also just remember that it um
Speaker 1: well you may want to and be able to be generous in this way and, and like dan said, it is, it is a time and a mental effort to that. Um it could be really disappointing if you find out that other people really just don't care and don't, it's already disappointing because they're not, but to actually hear them verbalize, it can also be disappointing. So if it goes that route,
Speaker 1: just, you know, maybe in your own heart, you can say I really love doing this and I'm not going to care about the thank you and I'm not going to care about the reciprocity and I'm just gonna
Speaker 2: and definitely take part. This is a generational etiquette question. Our mothers got this question. Our grandmother's got this question. I'm sure if we could interview Emily right now she would tell you she faced a similar question,
Speaker 1: but we hope that it goes well and that maybe you and your extended family can figure out a system that works for all of you. Best of luck.
Speaker 1: Our final question begins. Thanks for your podcast. I really enjoy listening and I've learned a lot from the questions and topics you discuss. I ran into an interesting question of etiquette the other day, Perhaps you can offer some insight. I took my Children to a public event. The event was packed and the face painting line was super long.
Speaker 1: I waited online while my kids participated
Speaker 1: in other aspects of the event. Lots of other parents did the same thing. All right. So she knows she's in kind with what's going on at the event.
Speaker 1: An hour and a half later we were finally next in line. I called my kids over and they came to wait with me for their turn at that time. Another little boy came and stood nearby and wanted to get into the face painting line.
Speaker 1: He was about four years old. I gently told him not to cut in line a few times. He stepped back and then tried again and seemed very determined to get into the face paint chair.
Speaker 1: I asked if he had a parent nearby, but he only pointed vaguely at the crowd. He wasn't lost. Lots of kids were wandering around in, their parents were mostly sitting at tables on the edges of the room.
Speaker 1: So I knelt down and explained as gently as I could that I could tell he really wanted to get face paint, but that there was a long line that people have been waiting in for a long time. I explained that if he wanted to get face paint he should get his grown up to stand in that line. I acknowledged that I knew this made him sad and that it was hard not to get what he wanted right away,
Speaker 1: but it wouldn't be fair to the people who waited to just cut the line. The kid left, giving me a pretty dirty look for a four year old. Was this the best way to handle this? He didn't have a parent around that I could identify. I often find myself in situations like this with my kids. How can I best be polite and respectful of other people's kids while helping them understand situations of etiquette if they're adults are not around.
Speaker 1: Thanks for any insight. You can offer best Rose
Speaker 2: Rose. I wish you were around to explain line manners to everybody.
Speaker 2: I think you did
Speaker 1: an admirable
Speaker 2: job here. I think you did. Um,
Speaker 1: especially considering she was explaining it to a four year old,
Speaker 2: you did good work for the universe on this one is the way I'm thinking of it. And, and, and I really do mean that it would be awesome if there could be a good parent like you,
Speaker 2: the, the voice of conscience in the ear of line cutters everywhere, particularly determined bully line cutters, even if they're four years old. Or
Speaker 1: was it maybe aggressive, aggressive? Exactly.
Speaker 2: We don't know what to
Speaker 1: do with too
Speaker 2: broad a brush here. And I
Speaker 1: mean he gave her a dirty look and don't let
Speaker 2: that dirty look dissuade. You don't, don't let that
Speaker 1: disappointed.
Speaker 2: And and and, and, and as he would be, he's a four year old who wants to get his face painted and who doesn't. But you really, I I think about all the other kids in that line who watched you handle that situation and stand up for them and it's entirely appropriate. You're not disciplining this child. You're not um
Speaker 2: doling out the punishment, which you, you do want to be really careful about.
Speaker 1: You were explaining circumstances,
Speaker 2: you're just maintaining some, some basic semblance of order. And line manners are a big deal. Learning about navigating lines is a big deal in american etiquette and american culture. And
Speaker 2: um, that's, that's a good role for a parent to be playing with a four year old who's unsupervised at that time.
Speaker 1: And I think that, you know, as we've always said, um often safety trumps etiquette. So if this had been a concern of safety
Speaker 1: and not obviously not in the face painting line, but if you're, because she, she's mentioning that other places where parents might be around, but you can't identify whose kids,
Speaker 1: you know, belongs that the safety does trump etiquette and it is, it is a good thing to step in when safety is involved. But how you do, it really makes a big difference and gently explaining to him the circumstances and why you weren't going to budge and you weren't gonna let him get in front of your kids.
Speaker 1: Um, I think was the way to go. And just, I think even even going so far as to say
Speaker 1: it's really important that you go get a parent now or you go find your mom and dad, like, you know, you can go get your mom and dad and stand in the line or you know, honey, what you're doing is a little, I'm a little concerned about the safety. I think you should go get your parents and have your parents help you out with this or have your parents be here while you do this.
Speaker 1: That sort of a thing is always just encourage them, it's time for you to go find your parents, it's time for you to be with your adult,
Speaker 1: the little kid.
Speaker 2: Good way to start to put a boundary container around the difficult situation.
Speaker 1: But I think you're doing the right thing and best of luck with other other Children filled events.
Speaker 2: Thanks to everyone for sending in your questions And remember we love updates. If we answered your question on the show or if you have a comment about one of our questions, feel free to send it in. You can also submit your question to awesome etiquette Emily Post dot com or send it in via facebook or twitter. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette. So we know you want it on the show.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: So for our post script segment today, um, as our listeners are our regular listeners already know. We love the book, the rituals of dinner by Margaret Visser and I was flipping through it the other day and what I love is that it actually has a section at the end called postscript. How rude are we?
Speaker 1: And since this is a question that you and I deal with a lot at the Emily Post Institute, I figured we could take a moment and talk about how rude or actually not so rude our culture is today because don't you just always here, I mean I've now been on eight flights in the past 10 days. So I
Speaker 2: talked to a lot of people about what you do. Why?
Speaker 1: Yes. In fact sometimes I just say I babysit because I don't want to talk about what I do.
Speaker 1: But no, I do talk to a lot of people about.
Speaker 2: Um
Speaker 1: and and and people are, oh, people are so rude today and I do love getting to tell them that you know what? Actually, it's not as bad as you would think.
Speaker 1: And what's amazing is that people actually really do care about their interactions with one another. And if you ask people at Emily's time, they thought that everyone was so
Speaker 1: rude as well. So it wasn't, it's, it's like every generation thinks the ones before were
Speaker 1: better. We
Speaker 2: talked about it all the time. Really
Speaker 1: nostalgic as a culture.
Speaker 2: We are a little nostalgic. Nostalgia is a powerful emotion.
Speaker 2: Thinking about rudeness. Oftentimes we get accused of being eternally optimistic.
Speaker 1: Well, isn't that a little
Speaker 2: optimistic that that that you really think people don't mean to be rude, that, that this is unintentional behavior and
Speaker 2: I hope it's optimistic and I'm gonna, I'm gonna hold tight to that frame of reference because I think the world is so impacted by how we see it. And if you go around really thinking to yourself, this world is full of rude people all of a sudden there's rude people everywhere. And
Speaker 1: this is so I'm sorry, I'm interrupting you, which is rude, but this is so proven by, I'm the one that receives all the emails that come in from our listeners in case y'all ever wanted to know. Yes, I do get them. Um
Speaker 1: but they actually, so many people say, because I listened to your podcast, I see like you've helped my world be a nicer place, like I'm more conscious of it, I'm more aware of it. It's exactly what dan is talking about when you're listening to
Speaker 1: people talk about etiquette and how to
Speaker 1: um have positive outcomes with others, how to build relationships with others. You look for ways to do that. It's like you can't help but be influenced by it and I think you're absolutely right, the opposite is true. If you think the world is a negative place and you're in a bad place, you're gonna look for the negative.
Speaker 1: I was grumpy when I came in today, I was kind of looking for dan to be annoying. So that in my head I could be like, yeah dan's annoying and he wasn't, he's like really freaking happy today
Speaker 2: and I just couldn't
Speaker 1: help but like, get on board and be like, you know what? Yeah, I just came from like something that was difficult, but like dan is being really positive. I should get on the positive train
Speaker 2: about positive psychology recently.
Speaker 1: Shut up dan, I'm kidding, I'm kidding, but
Speaker 2: it's true, It does matter and our, our mindset is important and I'm glad that you're on board and it is the perspective that we set out and that was the intention we set for this podcast right from the start is that that the the attitude and the perception is so often the etiquette is about the mistakes people make and our framework is entirely about etiquette being about building good relationships and having good relationships and
Speaker 2: and
Speaker 1: sure we point out ways not to make the mistake, you know, if you eat correctly, people are going to pay attention to what you say, not how strangely you're holding your fork. Sure, that's a mistake that we're pointing out and correcting but giving you the positive version of how to make it better for yourself.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: To change
Speaker 2: Gears. When you first brought up this topic, I was thinking about two
Speaker 1: things.
Speaker 2: One is the piece of feedback we often hear the things are so bad right now and and the particular challenges that this generation is facing the technology shift and the demands that the smartphone are putting on all of us and or social media or so I did a little fun thing I said rudeness on the rise into my google search and I searched it and the thing is I found
Speaker 2: The first page of Google Search results from every year since 2003, Rudeness was on the rise in 03. It was on the rise in '06, it was on the rise in '09, it was on the rise in 11
Speaker 2: And always for a different reason back, you know, three, it was the cell phone and email and by 09 it was social media, but rudeness is on the rise insert x and write articles
Speaker 1: and just, it's just like that subway article you found where nowadays it's cell phones back then it was newspapers, you know, it's
Speaker 2: like we
Speaker 1: always ignore each other and
Speaker 2: clear the door. Pay attention to the people around you.
Speaker 2: So rudeness on the rise. That was a fun when the google search the other one is something I hear your father say a lot. And I was actually, I was looking for some, some data, some statistics, some analysis to back up this perception. But all it is right now is a perception. I don't have those numbers to offer
Speaker 2: your father. I've heard my mother say, it also thinks that our grandmother had the hardest time rudeness was actually on the rise when
Speaker 2: um the iconoclast was an elevated figure in our society, someone who was challenging conventions and shattering social norms,
Speaker 2: The late 1960s, early 1970s through
Speaker 1: the eighties to
Speaker 2: I'm watching Mad Men with Food right now. So at the start of that show, you have the very buttoned down world of the late fifties, early sixties, late seasons. It's, it's, it's the seventies have, it's blown apart and those social structures are coming apart and
Speaker 2: Cindy sending often my mother will often look at it and say, boy, this was, this was in new york. This was growing up in rye new york in the fifties sixties and I think about our grandmother who was that managing that household and being in charge of that and watching the challenges to the social structure that came about. But it was,
Speaker 2: it wasn't just the challenge of, oh, it's a faster technology for communication. It was people who were intentionally challenging and deconstructing and breaking down that social order.
Speaker 1: So anyway,
Speaker 2: if there was a time when maybe rudeness, the way we think of rudeness people intentionally challenging those social norms and conventions or ignoring them on purpose to see what would happen. Um,
Speaker 2: maybe
Speaker 1: maybe we'll just
Speaker 2: tip the hat to our grandmother and say, you know, if we really are looking for a time when the etiquette community was faced with real challenges that, that wasn't
Speaker 1: even challenging their existence at all, Why do we do it this, why do we have to do it this way? And that what was so interesting out of that time was that what fell away was a lot of the unnecessary
Speaker 1: and what stuck was a lot like for instance,
Speaker 1: table manners didn't change throughout that time. What to talk about at the table didn't change at that time, but
Speaker 2: how you address women in the workplace
Speaker 1: changed
Speaker 2: and stayed
Speaker 1: change and also all sorts of things. I mean just, it was, it was really, it was also a really interesting time because it was one where a tire became a huge issue and,
Speaker 1: and how you chose to present yourself was really being,
Speaker 1: I don't want to say fought against and fought for at the same time. It was um really a big part of how it was like, I don't need to be buttoned up and dressed and present this perfectly soft, you know,
Speaker 1: hairstyle dress and everything in order to show you that I can be polite to you and be real with you and be someone that you can relate to.
Speaker 1: It was like how you presented yourself was being massively challenged. And
Speaker 2: yet etiquette
Speaker 1: stayed through the etiquette remained through it. It was, you know, and the people had to learn well, you don't have to be a jerk
Speaker 1: to have a ton of facial hair wear bell bottoms and you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know,
Speaker 2: I'm thinking where
Speaker 1: daisy change the
Speaker 2: style changes, the substance stays the same and, and figuring out what was stylistic and what was really substantive there I think was the real challenge of that generation And
Speaker 1: it was fascinating time for sure. I mean neither of us lived through it, but it's always fascinating to think about it and think about
Speaker 1: mud going through that and, and mud again being are what we call it Libby
Speaker 1: going through it. Um, and and how she was able to carry it on and, and bear in mind that she was the first woman to do it after Emily to carry it on after Emily. So that's an extra hurdle
Speaker 2: and, and to bring it back to the president. I think that in some ways you and I um sink our teeth into this etiquette work
Speaker 2: Um in 080907. This is right around a really a huge recession and I find the generation, the younger generation that we're talking to is hungry for information about how to, how to build good relationships and how to have a functioning social system that will support everyone. This is something people are invested in now.
Speaker 1: So my first book that was on roommate etiquette,
Speaker 1: that was the book that I really learned just how much young people care about etiquette because when they go to live with someone else for the first time, whether it's boarding school in high school or whether it's college or
Speaker 1: after high school and they get jobs and they get roommates of their own, they're out of the house that that is the first time they're dealing with someone they're not related to has no unconditional love for them and that there's money on the line and it's fascinating to see how all of a sudden they really care about being treated well and understanding what it means to treat someone else well. So
Speaker 1: to all the naysayers out there, I say, you know what this up and coming generation really does get it, but you also have to give them time to grow into it and experiencing it. You know, one thing my dad said when I was having a really hard time at the office, just you know, either, you know, you go through
Speaker 1: time periods where it's like at work, you just seem like you can't get it right with your coworkers, you finally resolve stuff with one and then two crops up with another and you're just like, can't this just be easy?
Speaker 1: And I remember saying to my dad, but how do you do this? How how how do you do this? Because I've got 36 years on you lizzie, I've got 32 years however old he was when he had me and I'm like, oh that's right, you're older and more experienced. So to the older generations, I do say, you know, give give whipper snappers a little time, you know,
Speaker 1: like they're learning let them learn be a part of them learning be a positive part of them learning.
Speaker 2: So that's a few thoughts on rudeness, of reflections on rudeness for the posts,
Speaker 1: are we? Well, it's pretty relative,
Speaker 2: you hear that she says you're not as rude as you used to be.
Speaker 2: Mhm
Speaker 2: What do you know? This isn't me, No
Speaker 2: world to live in All by yourself. This is amino world to live in all by yourself
Speaker 2: alone.
Speaker 1: So for etiquette salute today, um I really wanted to take the time to talk about my Aunt Suzanne because she um
Speaker 1: I can't say was because that just doesn't feel right, so much of the her her wishes when she passed was to be be present in our lives still. And don't you know, I think there was a poem that was like, you know, don't talk about me like I'm gone, I'm still here. You know, my my life was with you and I am still here with you.
Speaker 1: Um but Suzanne
Speaker 1: has always been the type of woman who just was the epitome of class and elegance and poise. She always knew the right thing to do. You know, it was it was that um she came from that era where
Speaker 1: it wasn't just something that was taught to her that became automatic, it was something that she clearly embodied
Speaker 1: and I knew all the right reasons for doing it. Just like we say, it's it's not do it because your mother said, so it's do it because it's the way to treat people respectfully. It's the way to best present yourself where you can have confidence and and Suzanne had amazing taste. So she just always presented herself so well.
Speaker 1: But at the same time what makes her
Speaker 1: epitomize our version of etiquette so much was that she was real
Speaker 1: and she was honest and she was fun and she had this wicked sense of humor and here's this this person that could really walk both lines of it. You know, the absolute proper um decorum, everything done because this is how it's done
Speaker 1: without making it seem
Speaker 1: fake or false. There was such a genuine nature to it and I'm so grateful that I have this wonderful. I mean my mother is an example of it but to have um an aunt who was such a strong example of it. Um I love the fact that that is a presence in my life and and something that I get to look on and reflect on and think you know, what would Suzanne have done
Speaker 1: And I'm very, very grateful to her for that.
Speaker 1: So that is my etiquette salute today. I really hope that other people have women like Suzanne in their
Speaker 2: lives
Speaker 2: who will buy
Speaker 2: that a young man has to tell come into my House of Glory
Speaker 2: that I will treat you well.
Speaker 2: That's our show for today as always, thank you for listening and spending some of your day with us. We hope you have a wonderful rest of your week. And don't forget there's no show without you. So please send us your questions. Your etiquette salutes and your suggestions to awesome etiquette Emily Post dot com if you like what you hear, don't be shy, tweet it facebook post it. And of course you can subscribe on itunes and if you like what you hear, leave us a review
Speaker 2: on facebook where the Emily Post Institute on twitter. I'm at Daniel underscore post
Speaker 1: and I'm at a post that Or
Speaker 2: you can visit our website Emily Post dot com. Our theme music was composed and performed by bob Wagner,
Speaker 2: who Will,
Speaker 1: mm hmm.