Episode 332 - Entertaining?

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social courtesy that's old fashioned.

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Speaker 2: Watch how busy post and damn posts and act as host and hostess.

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Speaker 2: They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person. Really Friendliness. Hello and welcome toe Awesome etiquette,

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Speaker 1: where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty.

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Speaker 2: On today's show, we take your questions on wearing a mask while running work emails on the holidays, tipping for hotel meals and the debate over second baby showers

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Speaker 1: for awesome etiquette sustaining members. Our question of the week is about paying someone back for some health years later,

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Speaker 2: plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a postscript where we check in with Lizzie Post on the writing of the 20th edition of etiquette, particularly the entertaining at home chapter.

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Speaker 1: All that's coming up

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Speaker 1: Awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in snowy Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute. I'm Lizzie Post,

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Speaker 2: and I'm Dan Post sending

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Speaker 1: Hey Kuz,

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Speaker 2: good morning.

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Speaker 1: I have to thank you because as we're going through the now editing process of the first half of the 20th edition that will be submitted to the publisher in a month. Um, you've been really great about getting me feedback when I need it. And I just have to thank you as my my colleague because it makes such a big difference. This is a huge amount of writing. I mean, I'm I'm What's the total 97,230 forwards into this 320,000 word book? E feel a little like I haven't left my house truly in days. I have

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Speaker 2: e,

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Speaker 1: but it really has made a difference when I've needed to say like, Hey, I need you to read this and get back to me on it. Andi, we're at this point where the timing and the response to things is like, really crucial. It's been a big help toe, have you right there helping out. So I want to call you out and say Thank you.

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Speaker 2: Well, you are most welcome. And when I saw writing and editing in our show script, I said the only contribution I added was me, too, because

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Speaker 1: he is on

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Speaker 2: and, well, I've been there the whole time. I am your interlocutor on this project. This is the first time I find myself in that immersion experience with you

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Speaker 1: actually

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Speaker 2: working on the text and the manuscript. And similarly, I appreciated the direction I've appreciated also the incredible effort that you've put into this the thing that you don't know that I sort of saved to tell you on this

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Speaker 1: particular podcast

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Speaker 2: intro

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Speaker 1: you

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Speaker 2: have totally inspired my wife who just sending. She has watched this work product arriving from you, and it's totally inspired her. She she knows you. She knows you well, thinks of you as a a person that she knows and

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Speaker 1: a friend

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Speaker 2: on go watch You tackle this task and to be actually doing it. And it is a big task. She's just really impressed. And I've watched her internalize it the way I oftentimes see her do with these things as a sort of call to action in herself. I see her sort of looking for those things that are gonna push and challenger. So anyway, I just wanted you to know that that was going on

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Speaker 1: on my home front. So poo just sitting over there going all is completed. Another chapter. I gotta I gotta go work on the business novel I always wanted Thio nonprofit. I always wanted to start that. It has been It's

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Speaker 2: inspiring, is what I'm trying to say.

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Speaker 1: Oh, good, I know and that that keeps me going because it is the biggest project I've ever worked on before. And it is, I mean, it's it's what, like four times the size that higher etiquette was, and that was the most recent book that I've written. So it's It does feel kind of like like maybe instead of having one baby, you're having five or four that once.

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Speaker 2: Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but it's coming along. It's happening. I'm really kind of appreciative Toe have other eyes on it now, too. That's always a big part of the writing process is that you go through these stages where you really don't want anyone else. Look at what you're writing like, and it's hard. It's a vulnerable space to be to put so much time and effort into something and also know that at this stage it's it's not at its best, it's not at its good enough, and that it requires the critique and the constructive criticism of others to get it there. It's like it's it's this kind of like vulnerable turn that you make in the writing process where you're kind of like riding this wave of confidence because you're actually getting something done and you're putting thousands of words onto the page and then you're like, Oh, but what are they now? We've got to make him really good, you know, like I'm getting a kick down and I don't know if you are, but of what we've what would have missed as we go through, like we didn't talk about hats on indoors and I'm like We have to talk about that in in fear. Ince's You know, our white after Labor Day is one of our most search questions, like we can't forget that I feel like there's this running list right now of like things we can't forget, things we can't forget walking around a room with a speaker in a speaker phone conversation when others are present, like awkward

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Speaker 2: and you never know what you don't know. You could try. It's

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Speaker 1: true. It's true. That's OK. So now you have just identified my biggest fear with this, which is Oh my gosh, what What is the collective one thing we're all going to miss. You know what I mean? That someone, just that everyone else is gonna go. Hey, guys, what about this? And of course, this is then what editors air for And, you know, and even with that, there's always gonna be something, but yeah. Anyway, that's my mental status right now where we're at with projects.

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Speaker 2: Well, when you are wrestling with that feeling of vulnerability, definitely remember this podcast. You could even replay this intro, and it is also inspiring. True. True.

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Speaker 1: Yes. And thank thank you for letting you share that on the air. I really appreciate it.

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Speaker 2: Um, So the other thing I was thinking about today is this could be a nice little

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Speaker 1: break. What do you mean, break?

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Speaker 2: Got some questions to get Thio.

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Speaker 1: You mean like the podcast is a break from writing? Yes, And it is also inspiration for writing, so I think we should definitely get to some questions.

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Speaker 2: Let's do it.

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Speaker 2: Awesome. Etiquette is here to answer your questions. You can email them toe awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. You can also leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463 You can reach us on social media on Twitter. We're at Emily Post Inst on instagram were at Emily Post Institute and on Facebook. We are awesome etiquette. Just remember, use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your posts so that we know you want your question on the show.

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Speaker 2: Mhm.

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Speaker 1: Our first question is titled Running a Risk. Hi, Dan and Lizzie. My question today is about mask etiquette when running. I currently live in the Portland, Oregon area and I go on a long run 6 to 13 miles every Saturday. I frequent many of our cities, pathways and sometimes hiking trails. Yesterday I was on Leif Eriksson Drive, which is an old road that is in the middle of Forest Park.

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Speaker 1: It is now exclusively used as a trail for walkers, hikers and bikers, and it is connected to many of the parks. Other trails. The road is about 10 ft wide and allows for two people running in the opposite direction, to say more than 6 ft apart. I usually bring a mask with me in case I am closer than 6 ft from others for longer than a few seconds. But I don't run with it on the entire time. I work in an environment where I have to wear a mask almost the entire workday, but I find it uncomfortable to wear. During long runs.

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Speaker 1: I passed two women who chastised me for not wearing a mask. This has never happened to me before. In passing, I let them know that we were 6 ft apart, probably should have just ignored them. But clearly my remarks in passing likely didn't convince them. Ha,

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Speaker 1: I have done research, and I know that the risks of transmitting cove it when outside and distance are extremely low. But when it comes to consideration, respect and honesty, is it more considerate and respectful? Toe wear one anyway. How consider it Do I have to be when it feels like an unnecessary precaution for someone I will never see again? Should I be wearing a mask if I am passing anyone at all? What is the etiquette for masks and running? My only other wrinkle is that when I'm passing people who are running two or three of breast and make a show of putting on their masks. They come into my 6 ft radius for a few seconds, and I usually don't put my mask on, but they're entering my 6 ft because of their decision to run side by side. And I don't want to put my mask on because they've decided to enter my space. I'm interested to know your opinions on this. Also, when I'm on a hiking trail, do I make a point of stopping and putting on my mask and stepping off the trail to leave room? Sincerely, Catherine? Oh, these are great questions.

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Speaker 2: I agree. 1000% Lizzie Post Catherine, Thank you for submitting this question, and I want to start off by just applauding your approach. And you're thinking that this is complicated and subtle territory and the ground shifting all the time and your willingness to really look at your own actions. Look at other people's actions. Think about it, ask yourself tough questions and and and still have your opinions and your perspectives, but take into account that other people might be seeing things differently than you. I think this is where good etiquette really begins. So bravo,

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Speaker 2: as far as the actual questions that you're asking. The first thought that I would put on the table is that if there was any question in my mind coming up about

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Speaker 2: how people feel about something, the impacts public health, like mask wearing, I would pay very, very close attention to whatever the guidelines or rules are, and it sounds like you're doing that. But

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Speaker 2: I would hue to them as a way toe to really protect myself and feel good about everything that I'm doing. And I think that's one of the places where I would really get rigorous with myself. I would ask, um, I following the letter of this law and

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Speaker 2: because people have slightly different opinions about it. I think that's the way that I end up ultimately feeling the most comfortable. Whether or not I agree with every way that that ruler law is applied, whether I agree that I'm following the intent of the law, even if not the letter of it or I'm my actions air in accordance with the purpose of the law, if not the letter of it for these kinds of cases, I would stick to that letter of the law just while We're all navigating this and figuring it out together,

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Speaker 1: Dan. I do think it's really important to, like, lean on that that letter of the laws as a base. It's always kind of a good place to go back to, right. I mean, like, rules of the of the establishment is something we often talk about as a place to lean into when you're uncertain and safety is an issue. But, ah, lot of times it's a little more confusing on day. Like I know not every state has really clear, like some don't even have a mask law or or an ordinance. It's a suggestion, or it's ah, you know what I mean. And so and I'm not sure what Oregon's position is. But as Catherine has stated, masking and 6 ft apart are are two of the things that really help. One of the things that we also know is that doing mawr than just one effort makes it so much better. It just helps your percentages so much, um, in terms of likelihood of catching it or spreading it between the two of you. So while it is true that 6 ft or more apart when you're outside is usually thought of us pretty good. Most of the running articles that I have read related to Cove it also state that because you're on Lee passing people for a couple seconds that it's just a very unlikely scenario to catch it in. But if you do put the mask up and have that 6 ft, or as much of the 6 ft is you can get, I think you're that much better off. And one of the things that you ask Catherine was about Is it not? Consider it even though I know I feel safe with it. And I think that doing both of the things right now is if we're going in the world of, like, thoughtful and considerate, that would be thoughtful and considerate in my mind would be both. When you go by, someone, just quickly pull your mask up or if you have a mask that you hold in your hand. If that's easier, that just go for that. Along with creating, you're 6 ft of space. Catherine also did mention trails, and there are times on trails where you can't create that 6 ft of space without stepping off the trail. and this is a toss up. If you're in an area that you know is environmentally protected or that they're trying to get regrowth close to the trail, I might consider turning my back to the person that I'm passing and putting my mask on. But maybe not trying to ruin the environment. We end up in a lot of situations like that in stores where we're indoors. This is outdoors. I personally would feel safe doing that. I would also make sure toe offer to the other person, you know, just a small mini negotiation of Do we want to step off the trail, or do we want to, You know, like go back to back like, because I think there there might be places where the trail could be really tough and there's not enough room. I'm thinking of, like a little rock ledge or something that I've often gone around on trails in Vermont, and there's some stuff like that near your house like, but those are If we're going from the consideration angle, I think we're going to try to do everything because you don't know the comfort level of the other person. Nobody knows whether they've they've got it or not A lot of the time, um, you know you can be asymptomatic and still pass it. And so I think that doing the most that you can is probably that the considerate way to go, particularly in

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Speaker 2: those places where you find yourself bumping up with other people. And this is one of the unfortunate byproduct of this pandemic is that those outdoor spaces that were used to providing us some room and some space in our life, even those places have new social distances that we have to get used to, and

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Speaker 2: that's that's tough. I so understand that desire for just running and being asked free and the other piece of ice Lizzie, I was thinking, also not knowing the running world as well as you do. Are there things like handheld masks that people carry that are easy? Thio, Get up and down or

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Speaker 1: yeah, I see people do all kinds of different stuff. Some people run with the shield in front of their face and don't worry about putting a mask up. Others have a little like gator or something that they, you know, they pull up over their face while they're passing, Some people just run with their mask on. I always applaud them. I think that's amazing. I can't do it. But people have all kinds of different things that they do. But part of it, I also think, is showing that you're making the effort and whether that's moving your body away from someone turning your face away from them. But giving them a wave and a high still, you know, e. Just think it's showing that you're willing to try to make the effort to not breathe on them when you cross bads is a good thing. Um, and I also just want to give voice to the frustration that Catherine allowed us to see a little bit when when she said, You know why I'm creating that 6 ft and those other people who aren't willing to drop to single file, you know they're going to a breast three abreast or invading my 6 ft, even though they have masks like what the heck? And I think for the same frustration that you feel someone else might feel like Boy, you know, I know that there's 6 ft apart, but like come on, like if you just put the mask on to it would be that much safer. You know, I can hear frustration from other points of view, and I have also just totally been in Katherine's position where I'm like like I try to create space because that's the important thing for me on, like, you're just so annoyed that that someone else is, you know, doing their version of they're putting up kind of one defense, but not multiple.

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Speaker 2: Catherine, this is such a great question, and it's something that we're gonna continue to have to deal with. So we really appreciate a chance toe. Look at a couple different sides of it. Thank you for this question.

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Speaker 1: Viruses

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Speaker 2: and there are many different kinds of them can be scattered with each particle of saliva and mucus. When one sneezes

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Speaker 1: or coughs, for instance,

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Speaker 2: just remember how breath becomes visible on a cold day. How, then, with so many germs surrounding us, can we avoid having colds all the time?

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Speaker 2: Yeah,

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Speaker 2: our next question is about a grumpy greeting.

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Speaker 2: Hello, great show. I have listened since the dinner party days and love your advice. Two questions arising from the holidays. I am self employed and get many clients who email or text holiday wishes to me, including Christmas. So this Christmas Eve, I am alone due to Kovach sheltering rules. My adult Children live out of state in Europe, and I get an email from a client at midnight. I opened it expecting a greeting for the occasion and instead the client with no hello, er salutation states. There is a typo on page three, paragraph six in the word Bubba, please. Correct. And recent via email. That was the entire email. No, sorry to bother you. No, thank you. No warmth.

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Speaker 2: I felt really bothered for five or 10 minutes at this intrusion into a holiday with a work request. And I admit it threw me off track. It was already hard to feel festive one alone, and the lack of greeting did not help. Then I decided to feel sorry for someone who was focused on finding errors at midnight on a holiday. Sigh my question. So are there no longer hours to reach out? In this day of instant sending of texts, emails and other media? Can one ignore weekends time of night in holidays and sent work demands anytime. Or is the sender under some obligation to confine their communication? I couldn't theory call someone's phone and leave a message, but I wouldnt at 3 a.m. Why send an email? And yes, there are programs that delay sending and programs that mute incoming. But as I said, I get warm greetings for many clients on the holidays. If you wonder, I replied, This is a matter that should and will be addressed in normal business hours. I never got an apology or response. This was not a document of any urgency at all. Thank

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Speaker 1: you, Constance. Oh, Constance, I'm sorry that that's what your Christmas Eve holiday was was like, I I just I feel for you, that is, that is not fun to kind of have, like a a work frustration and awkwardness thrown into the middle of kind of an already bummer of a night, especially when you often like those. Like you said, you, your clients over the years have sent things that are nice. And so opening it up pond having it just totally be not. I think it's tough, Dan, One of the things you know, if we're gonna like my my brain jumps right Thio. If we wanted to give the center any kind of benefit of the doubt, it would be in that a lot of people do assume and and that's a tough word we know, especially in etiquette. But a lot of people do assume that people manage their work life and and set boundaries for it for themselves. And I think especially as we do so much working on the go, Um even though now are on the go, is often at home. I feel like there's ah sort of consensus that we're the ones who are in control of of when we choose to look at things. You know how we choose to respond to them if we when we choose to deal with them when it comes to work and it's not always the case, some some jobs. It's not like that some jobs, it is that really in demand. But I do feel like if I was going to give the center of that email, which isn't a terribly impressive email, um, it's, you know, it's it's not really like we would say Hey, address the person if it's a holiday, Yes, like allude to that like, take those little politeness. Is that air going to soften this? Because we see what happened when the person didn't. It came off as rude and pushy, and the only thing I could think of is that they weren't expecting you to open it that particular night. But maybe, you know, the following work day. That's the

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Speaker 2: sort of generous benefit of the doubt.

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Speaker 1: E

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Speaker 2: guess like constants. I'm just disappointed in the email in general that regardless of when it arrived, basic courtesies still matter and they matter all the time. And one of the reasons they matter all the time is you don't know what other people are experience. You don't know which holidays people celebrate necessarily, or what they've gone through that day, or

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Speaker 2: how that project that you're tryingto reach them about is going for them. It's just it's impossible to know. So

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Speaker 2: making those basic courtesies of acknowledging someone as a person by using a salutation are so important if they're important all the time, So cultivating those habits is is one of the themes of this show, and I think this is a really good illustration of

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Speaker 1: why we

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Speaker 2: advocate for that the question about the work life balance and how we draw those lines and set those boundaries is one that has perplexed people forever on. And it hasn't gotten any easier, as constants acknowledges, In a world of such instant and immediate communication, I think like you have recognized in emerging courtesy, particularly around email, which people oftentimes do have buffers in terms of

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Speaker 2: the way they set that up and think of it is professional communication in a way that lets them do some of that regulation that you're talking about. I'm not going to answer work emails after dinner or

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Speaker 2: all kinds of decisions that people make like that.

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Speaker 2: I do think some of those courtesies it's funny. It's the communication becomes more intimate, do still apply, even in business. So you wouldn't text someone necessarily at 3 a.m. No, because like the likelihood that that phone is on their person or near them or could wake them up, or that the time that you send that would communicate a certain immediacy urgency that might or might not be. Part of the message has happened here,

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Speaker 2: so

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Speaker 1: there is kind of a line

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Speaker 2: for me that says email work focused. I'm gonna ask and think of it as a place where people are regulating and deciding for themselves when they are going to answer it, when they're going to read it for phone calls and text, particularly things that I know come into someone's direct line, not to a business number. I'm going to be much more careful, and I'm going to think more about that traditional 8 to 8 or 9 to 9 window that a lot of people think of as being the

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Speaker 2: acceptable hours for polite social or business calls.

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Speaker 1: And if you're thinking of sending a business email and it's one of those late night hours or possibly a quiet holiday evening, remember to just think about saying a nice little sorry to interrupt you in the evening or, you know, Please wait. You know, feel free to wait until the, you know, next Business day to handle this like it's okay. Like email. One of the great things about it is this really is okay, Thio send stuff whenever, but how you do it makes such a difference. And it would have made such a difference to Constance on what was you know, just kind of lonely or Christmas Eve. These air, the stories that remind me to slow down and take that minute toe add a little courtesy in

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Speaker 2: constant Thank you for this reminder.

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Speaker 2: Let's learn some ways to be kind and considerate on the telephone. It's really very simple if you know three words, please. Thank you. And I'm sorry.

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Speaker 1: Our next question is titled Hosted at a hotel. I really enjoy the podcast. Thank you for making it informative and entertaining because of my job. I am sometimes hosted at hotels and instructed to have meals charged to my room. Sometimes I have left a tip and then wondered if the host also tipped. Other times I haven't and hoped that the host did.

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Speaker 1: Every server should receive inadequate tip. But whose responsibility is it? Mine or the hosts? Thank you for your help. 20% tipper,

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Speaker 2: 20%. Thank you so much for this question. The quick answer is that under most circumstances, the host is going to be covering that tipped by most, I mean just about everyone that I can think of. And for most people, the easy route to go is just to include the tip on the bill that is being charged to your room and sign for it that way. It's standard, it's easy, and it really is considered part of that. Meals expense?

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Speaker 1: No, you're absolutely right, Dan. You you should leave a tip no matter what. And and that is true, whether you're in the restaurant or at the bar or some other part of the facility, on discharging to your room or whether you're getting room service and with room service. There's two things that you want to keep a nigh on on. That bill is one. Is there already a gratuity charge on it? And two, Don't mistake the room service charge for a gratuity. It's It's just like the delivery charges, not the tip for the driver. Um, it's the same thing, and so you could always ask. Yeah, exactly. You can always ask if you're not sure. Um, but you should feel confident. What? What I don't think is happening in this situation is that when the person who's covering your bill at the hotel, including the meals, I don't think that they're going back to your meal bill and adding a 20% tip afterwards that I would think as of as unusual because typically on Yeah, like on a restaurant charge. You have to write in and sign for that tip, and there's no way for them when they're on the other end. When they're rectifying that bill with the credit card company or with the hotel toe, add that tip. I mean, they might inquire about it, but e, I don't think it's likely. So I would say Make sure that you're leaving a tip every time and clearly you understand and know that the servers should I mean you stated in your email

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Speaker 2: 20% Tipper. Thank you for this question. And for one of the funniest sign off signatures we've seen in a while. What can money be used for? What is money anyway? It will pass through many, many more hands before it is worn out and withdrawn from circulation.

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Speaker 2: Our next question or wonders, is a second shower, a spectacle.

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Speaker 2: Hi, Dan and Lizzie, I'm pregnant that have been using an app that includes message boards for expecting moms. Congratulations.

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Speaker 2: I saw a debate on one that I love your take on. Someone asked if it's trashy to have a baby shower for her second baby. Lots of people, including me, have given the Emily Post Answer that I've heard you discuss on the podcast before. Baby showers air on Lee for the first baby. Although a Sprinkle could be appropriate for the second.

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Speaker 2: I was surprised to read a lot capitalized of responses, saying that it is 100% okay to throw a second full on baby shower and comparing baby showers to birthday parties. A couple quotes from the message board.

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Speaker 2: Do we only celebrate one of our birthdays? No. Why should we only celebrate one of our pregnancies? Why does everyone think baby showers, air gift grabs? Do we think birthday celebrations or gift grabs? Every pregnancy should be celebrated.

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Speaker 2: If you love or care about someone, it would never bother you to celebrate them and give a gift. And if everyone feels another shower is so trashy, don't ever throw your kids another birthday party.

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Speaker 2: I don't plan on getting into any Internet arguments, but I'm curious. How would you respond to someone who made that comparison? To explain how these two things were different? All the best. Alana.

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Speaker 1: Alana. Thank you. So much for asking this question, Dan. I am having a moment of fear that we might have led our audience astray.

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Speaker 2: Me, too, but it can't be too far.

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Speaker 1: I know, I know. And so we definitely want to clarify. I know that we have discussed Sprinkles and Sprinkles. Specifically are smaller versions of showers for a second or third child that's coming into the family. And I just want to say, Well, I noticed that a couple of the comments mentioned pregnancies that showers are for any new child entering your family and that it's it's really good to be inclusive when you're talking about celebrating, You know that the growth of a family, which I think is more what this is about than than pregnancy specifically. But we do believe that e mean, Dan, I know you and I both feel this way personally, and I'm certainly going to be checking up on our website and stuff. But we do believe that it's OK to show throw a shower, a new shower for each child. It just happens that a lot of parents for 2nd and 3rd and and beyond, either don't throw them or choose to throw the Sprinkle because you're already really well set up, right?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. And I think the history here will give us some clues on how to answer some of the contemporary questions. So for me, the big difference between the shower as a gift giving event in the birthday is that the birthday event is annual. It happens continuously throughout someone's life, whereas that that celebration of, ah, a new baby or someone joining the family. It's a one time event, a big celebration and once upon a times, or looking back into a world where we just didn't have as much stuff. Preparing new parents or preparing someone to be a parent for the first time

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Speaker 2: meant helping out. It meant getting them that stuff, that they were gonna

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Speaker 1: crib linen, linen. Yeah, what? Yeah, totally,

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Speaker 2: Exactly. And it was in many ways that the view was that once that was done, that job for the community was done. So that was how the idea about one shower first baby connected to gifts historically arose, and the modern thinking about it is much mawr. One that celebratory. It's not just about this stuff quite as much, and that changes and shifts the etiquette a little bit, but that traditional idea continues to exist. So sometimes communicating an awareness of that tradition is part of the way you might choose to communicate about deciding toe. Have a second shower. Hence, things like the Sprinkle or the shower or showers really de emphasize gifts.

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Speaker 1: Alana, I want to thank you for bringing this to our attention, and it's always good for us to self reflect. And sometimes when we hear our own advice echoed back, we go. Oh, wait a minute. We wanna edit that a little bit. And I just appreciate what this show offers in terms of being able tohave, things grow and change and expand or being able to clarify so that we can have advice that I think works for more people. But this is, you know, showers are definitely as Dan said right now about celebration, and for each child that's coming into a family. That is perfectly appropriate thing to Dio.

00:32:40

Speaker 1: Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. You can also leave a voicemail or text at 802858 k i n D. That's 8028585463 or reach us on social media on Twitter. We're at Emily Post Against On Instagram were at Emily Post Institute and on Facebook were awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social post so that we know you want your question on the show

00:33:12

Speaker 2: way.

00:33:23

Speaker 2: If you love awesome etiquette, consider becoming a sustaining member. You can find out more about this by visiting us at patryan dot com slash awesome etiquette. You'll get an ADS free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content. Plus, you'll feel great knowing you helped to keep awesome etiquette on the air. And to those of you who are already sustaining members, thank you for your support.

00:33:43

Speaker 1: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer and the topics we cover. And today we're hearing from Barb on the question about returning a video game from last episode.

00:33:55

Speaker 2: Thank you for reading and discussing my question on episode number 3 31. Regarding the Wii game that was borrowed by 20 year old son subsequently handled it perfectly, reached out to his friend that had his We game from 18 months ago. The friend returned the Wii game to him. My son ordered his friend and identical brand new Wii game off the Internet and had it shipped directly to his friend's house. There was a good lesson and talking things through and considering other people's feelings. Thanks so much. Barb

00:34:23

Speaker 1: Barb, I love this. This is direct feed like I did just I love the like, which showed a show getting the follow up right away. Barb, thank you so much for writing in. We're so glad that it got handled well and that your son was ableto take care of it on his own. That's awesome. I hope

00:34:40

Speaker 2: he's enjoying the game bar. Thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates.

00:34:44

Speaker 1: Please do keep them

00:34:45

Speaker 2: coming. You could send your next back update or questions. Awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. You can also leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585 or 63

00:35:01

Speaker 2: It's time for our post script segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette. And today we're going to talk about the process of writing the 20th edition of etiquette, and this is a little bit of a risky topic. And I asked Lizzie she would be willing to just let us in a little bit. And if there was something in the book that that we could return to, I know we've talked a little bit about this book as we've been developing it, and it's been a little while. So was he. Post. Can I ask you a few questions? Can we check in?

00:35:29

Speaker 1: Let's do it. I think we, you and I have discussed, um, kind of dissecting the entertaining at home chapter, which is the largest chapter in the book. Um, it's got the most amount of info, and I think he'd be really fun to share the process, especially because right now we're living kind of the hardest part of it, which is where you're really trying to make sure you get everything that you need and want into the manuscript. Later, we'll edit it down, but, um, but this is that process. And so it's a lot of thinking about a topic of etiquette and what what really belongs within that topic? What do we what do we experience within that particular topic? So, yeah, fire, Fire away Because

00:36:16

Speaker 2: so? Well, let's start. Let's start with the obvious question. I know this chapter got big quickly, which to me tells me there's a lot of stuff that comes to mind when you think about entertaining at home. How are you sorting it? What do your big picture thoughts about entertaining at home?

00:36:30

Speaker 1: It's like we said the whole subject is really large When you think about entertaining at home, it's everything from a neighbour's drop by visit Thio, you know, hanging out with your friends in your home, Thio like throwing actual events, you know, parties and barbecues and, you know, whatever whatever it is, but actually putting sort of more focus and emphasis and formality on it. And even within that, then there's There's formality, right? There's the dinner parties that we have that are the classic, like, you know, you and the other family friends that you, you know and are in the area or you're kind of tight knit social group, all come over. I'm thinking of when I was a kid. That was the Phillips is and the Arenson owns. And you know when whenever it was like a Friday night, my mom would say, Hey, do you guys wanna, you know, come over on Friday night for dinner at our place? And it was that kind of a feel where it wasn't like, ah, hard party to throw. But it was definitely dinner with guests, as opposed to like Yeah, and more than like, when a friend comes for a sleepover and we have an extra guest in the house, you know what I mean? This is more than stopping by. So obviously this this chapter needed an entire rundown of the classic dinner party. And so, um, I

00:37:55

Speaker 2: have to interrupt exactly the first thing that I think of what I think. Emily Post entertaining at home. The tablecloth is out. And if there is a second set of China or something, maybe that's on the table.

00:38:08

Speaker 1: Totally, Totally. Totally So. So basically, this chapter starts by breaking it down into kind of the different types of gatherings that we dio with. Then, ah, heavy focus on the dinner party. So the sections that you'll find in it. Hopefully again. Who knows what will make it in the end? But the idea is that there's the sort of casual entertaining which is like dropped by visitors. Ah, good. Hang out with a friend, an impromptu dinner or gathering at your place. I can remember in my twenties, tons of times where, you know, after the bars closed down, we would all go back to someone else's house or where you're out for a hike with friends and you all say, Hey, let's do you know, pizza back at our place in a movie and everyone says yes, and it's nothing you had been planning on, but it just kind of pops up, and all of a sudden you're hosting, you know,

00:38:57

Speaker 2: absolutely. And I want to sort of lead you into another direction, which is something that I've heard you talk a lot about, which is the ways that you're trying to draw some of the lessons that air imparted by the formality of that sort of classic Emily Post dinner party vision that I was talking about in tow. Some of those other spaces that air the spaces that we are most likely most often and many people are operating in regularly where it's not such a formal situation, but that role of the hostess still so important and or the guest

00:39:30

Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's where we're leaning directly on the host guests etiquette, which is actually a totally different chapter in the book. Oh boy,

00:39:38

Speaker 1: yeah, No hosting guest etiquette is a little bit more generic and and we like grouping it together. So it's kind of one of those. I think of it more as your everyday type manners, the stuff that you're gonna prepare yourself with to kind of be someone who can participate well in your community or in society. And the entertaining at home is really specifically you being the host. So it is written from that perspective. But those casual gatherings they draw on all those classic hosting skills You might not be putting the chips and a really fancy bowl when it's just your girlfriend's stopping by, you know, for like, a drink after work or something like that. But you're still gonna be in the hosting space

00:40:25

Speaker 2: you might still offer enjoyable and something

00:40:28

Speaker 1: absolutely, you know, it kind of runs, you hear ah, lot The basic is, you know, you at least offer someone a glass of water that, like that's kind of like the bare minimum. So after sort of those casual, entertaining environments that we find ourselves in our situations, we find ourselves in. It was time to dive into the classic dinner party, and that was sort of broken down into into two different parts. And of course, one is the planning of the classic dinner party, where you're thinking of size and formality of the event, the date and time of it, the guest list, the menu and decor that you're going to use invitations following up on the RSVPs. And then you get around

00:41:08

Speaker 2: that. No,

00:41:09

Speaker 1: not at all. You know, it gets to the place where you're even, you know, setting the dinner party table from like a sample menu and one of my favorites, which is sort of creating a countdown timeline for yourself to get everything done in time. And that goes all the way up to that 15 minutes before the party, when you get to chill out for a bit on like get yourself in tow into host mode rather than prep mode. But then it launches you right into the hosting the classic dinner party and the you know the doorbell rings. Or there's the knock at the door and your greeting guests. You've got a cocktail hour to get through and a dinner. So we sort of talk about inviting people into the tables, how to manage serving and clearing courses, conversation at the table and how to manage it when the conversation turns ugly. You all have heard us talk about that a lot on this show and then Desert Dan for for you and for many I I really didn't want us to lose the after dessert coffee or, you know, talking about the idea of serving coffee at the end of the night. Um, but then it's It's then you're at the end of the night and it's You're saying Good night on Dove course. There's sections on, you know, handling any snags or problems that happen. Think like spills. You know, Jews like that. And then there's a whole section on specifically formally hosting these events because for most of us and Dan, correct me if I'm wrong, but most of us, our dinner parties, will be nice But whether or not you put them in the category of formal is different, and I think those formal dinner parties really are formal. It's a is a written invitation that goes out and people dress up and it is timely. You're not getting text messages of Oh, I'm going to be half on our late It's a different ball game and so that kind of gets its own special call out. And as Dan and I also know, that's a that's important to people from this book. We do so much on this show to kind of bring etiquette into the every day and explore it in the every day. But people turned to Emily Post for formality as well, and for what to do when it is either higher stakes or you just want to celebrate in a more formal way and so so that I thought was really important. But the entire section ends with other parties at home, and it goes through brunches and lunches. Luncheons. Excuse me, um, tea parties, birthday parties, both four Children and for adults, showers, graduation parties, housewarming parties, retirement parties. And then we break down table settings, food and drink and then hosting house guests. And as Dan knows, we follow the whole thing with a bunch of resource is so hopefully Cem Cem guides that will either be easier or quicker to access some of the information. You know, it's like a little bit less of the storytelling narrative version of it e to share

00:44:06

Speaker 2: this. I wanted to ask you another question about the elements within the chapter that are writing elements that the the content I'm imagining sounds really familiar to people on the show. And you know me. My heart starts to pitter patter when I hear you talk about that formal

00:44:22

Speaker 1: event.

00:44:24

Speaker 2: And, uh, but I also know that you've been working sort of chapter by chapter to include certain elements, and I was thinking of the resource component as as one of those elements. And are you willing to talk about some of the other components that you're that you're trying to get into each and every chapter?

00:44:41

Speaker 1: So one of them is actually decently long snippets from the 1922 edition, and this section actually has one of the longest in it, and it's a really and again, this is the stuff that sometimes it gets cut, and it just depends on how the editing process goes. But I'm gonna be pushing hard for it to be kept. How a dinner is given in a great house. You all have heard us read that section on this show. If you're a longer time listener and it's a section that talks about, I think it's Mrs Worldly. Yeah, Mrs Worldly giving a dinner party and how her social secretary handles the list after she curates it. And how how she keeps a dinner party list going and the cook figures out the menu based on the and just like how everything and who we're going to invite and why, Because Mrs Highbrow and Mrs Once we're we're going to disapprove of Mr You know,

00:45:36

Speaker 2: eso

00:45:37

Speaker 1: smoking and gamble it like Mrs Gilding smoking habits. And so they're not the best people have at the dinner party together. Um, but it Emily talks about it as being a well oiled machine, and it xdrive me and fanciful and few of us ever have the kind of lifestyle that would that would reflect it. Um, but I think it gives us a real sense of how she painted a picture to give advice a lot of the time, and it's a wonderful callback tradition to her. So I I threw. I put that in, and I'm really hoping that it stays. But one of the others is using using our own Emily names. That's one of the things that people write to us about and say is the thing that most sticks out to them about Emily Post book is her character names. She had the World lease and once words Mr Club Window and I don't get that one. That's like, I'm not fully admit I'm like I'm not sure what that one means, but the Normans and the kind Hearts and the Smart Lincoln's and and so we've been trying Thio create some of those names. And that's actually one of the things I have to go back and add to this chapter because we've got a bunch of the examples from Emily's names, but we don't have any of our own samples in it yet, so it's like one of my editing notes is like, Okay, you gotta go put that into this chapter and where's you know, if we are going to do statistical information. Where is that going to go? That's another thing that might end up, but it's a it's a beast. This is. I'll be very interested to see whether this chapter gets broken up into five separate chapters or whether it remains itself. Um, it's It's It is a beast of the chapter

00:47:19

Speaker 2: it is, and

00:47:20

Speaker 1: it's about 30,000 words like That's a book on its own.

00:47:24

Speaker 2: I've heard you wrestling with this one, and I'm so appreciative. It's so glad that you were willing toe talk about some of it here on the show because it's

00:47:34

Speaker 2: it is that behind the curtain etiquette conversation, that was the conceit of this podcast when we first launched it. And it's a really rich opportunity to hear you try to wrestle it all into place.

00:47:44

Speaker 1: Well, thank you, it's it's really nice to get to share it. I feel as Dan knows, because he's just started reading and editing with me, You can feel very like alone and in your head with this massive thing, and it's like, really great to get to the point where you feel vulnerable enough and okay. With that vulnerable vulnerability, Thio start really dissecting it to make it better. And it's It's a hard Kelly Williams around. And I were talking last night about how that is a very hard part of this process, that you you work something, you hone it, you're proud of it. It's a volume of content, and you literally handed over to other people to say, you know, shred it and let like Then let me work on it again. You're

00:48:30

Speaker 2: a braver woman, The

00:48:31

Speaker 1: not well. We certainly hope that this gives you a taste for what is coming in this this wonderful book that we're working on.

00:48:42

Speaker 2: Thank you so much for taking a chance and sharing with us. Please do keep us posted. Well, because this is to be a guessing game on table manners. Betty, our hostess, is having a few of her friends to her home for a birthday party. She has been to any number of little parties like this, but this is the first time she has given a party all by herself. Like everyone else, she thinks that her etiquette is perhaps not perfect, but good enough so that there are no glaring errors.

00:49:21

Speaker 1: We like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world, and that can come in so many forms. Today we have a voicemail from Brianne. Hi, my name is Brianne. I wanted to give a salute. Thio my best friends. Sarah. She is a childhood friend who luckily planned a like last minute trip out to my house in February before all the craziness happened and the weekend presented a lot of life's challenges. I had a dentist appointment that was unable to get switched

00:49:58

Speaker 1: to make room for art for her trip, and she very graciously offered toe watch my Children while I went on this appointment

00:50:07

Speaker 1: and the appointment ended up running very long and when it did run long at the same time, our new mattress was also delivered early. Thio, my poor, wonderful friend, who I had my two Children and the natural people in my house while I was there off her vacation. And obviously I was very mortified, but she it was just such an eagle about the whole thing, and every time I brought it up since just like joking or apologizing. You know how you dio. She just always told me to forget about it and was so great. And I just wanted to send her a salute. She listens to this podcast, too. She actually is the one that showed me a few years ago, and I just been obsessed with it,

00:50:51

Speaker 1: you know, do a great job. But I just wanted to send a salute to Sarah for not ending our friendship and leaving myself and my Children

00:51:00

Speaker 1: to their own devices after the day went crazy for herself.

00:51:04

Speaker 1: I appreciate you guys so much. It's been a great to listen to this podcast throughout these times and

00:51:09

Speaker 1: thank you for all you D. O brien. That's such a great salute. Any friend who is willing to watch your Children for you definitely deserves a salute. Yes, because

00:51:18

Speaker 2: absolutely. And like a double triple salute for introducing you to awesome etiquette. Also, I really hope that she's still listening in. This arrives is a very pleasant surprise that is such a gift. The other thing I have to say is that

00:51:33

Speaker 2: speaking from the perspective of a parent who missed some dentist appointments himself on in the pandemic and almost lost a tooth over it. I am just so grateful that you were able to get there and that everything worked out.

00:51:46

Speaker 1: Brianne, thank you so much for the salute.

00:51:49

Speaker 2: Thank you for listening

00:51:52

Speaker 1: and thank you to everyone who sent us something or supports us on. Patryan.

00:51:57

Speaker 2: Please do connect with us and share the show with friends, family or coworkers. However you like to share podcast,

00:52:03

Speaker 1: you can send us questions, feedback and salutes by email. Toe Awesome etiquette it Emily post dot com by phone. You can leave us a voice message or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463 on Twitter We're at Emily Post Inst on instagram were at Emily Post Institute and on Facebook Were Awesome Etiquette and the Emily Post Institute.

00:52:28

Speaker 2: Please consider becoming a sustaining member. You can find out more about this by visiting patryan dot com slash awesome

00:52:34

Speaker 1: etiquette. You can also subscribe to the ads version of our show on Spotify or your favorite podcast app, and please consider leaving us a review. It definitely helps with our show rankings, which helps more people find awesome etiquette.

00:52:47

Speaker 2: Our show is edited by Chris Albertine, assistant produced by Brigitte.

00:52:51

Speaker 1: Thanks. Thanks.

00:53:03

Speaker 1: Oh,