Episode 333 - Announcing
In this episode of Awesome Etiquette
Welcome to Awesome Etiquette, where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. On today’s show we take your questions on joint greeting cards, LinkedIn messages, a new covid wedding conundrum and making expectations clear to your babysitter. For Awesome Etiquette sustaining members your bonus question is about writing thank yous when you don’t know who gave which gifts. Plus your most excellent feedback, etiquette salute and postscript where we discuss engagement announcements in the paper.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social courtesy that's old fashioned.
Speaker 1: Watch how busy post and damn posts and act as host and hostess.
Speaker 1: They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person. Really Friendliness. Hello and welcome toe Awesome etiquette, where
Speaker 2: we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect
Speaker 1: and honesty. On today's show, we take your questions on joint greeting cards linked in messages, a new co vid wedding conundrum and making expectations clear to your baby sitter for
Speaker 2: awesome etiquette sustaining members. Our question of the week is about writing Thank you notes when you don't know who gave you which gifts.
Speaker 1: All that, plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a postscript where we discuss engagement announcements in the paper.
Speaker 2: All that's coming
Speaker 1: up
Speaker 1: Awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute.
Speaker 2: I'm Lizzie Post
Speaker 1: and I'm Dan Post Senning.
Speaker 2: And today, dear audience, we are going to do something very ver monte and talk about our plow guys way also have
Speaker 1: one other very ver monte topic that I think has to be addressed. The elephant in the room. Or maybe it's the donkey. Bernie
Speaker 2: Sanders mittens. Bernie Sanders Mons. Yeah, and then and just park. I mean the most Vermont esque practicality at that outdoor ceremony. That was great. And I love that the sustainable mittens made from recycled sweaters are getting a big bump. Now that's that's a Vermont maker whose who is definitely having a moment in the sun. You know, every once
Speaker 1: in a while is a Vermonter. You get toe, step out, you know, puff yourself up a little bit, take pride and where you're from.
Speaker 2: This is one of those moments we all have mittens like that, and we all have Parker's like that, and we wear them to stay warm. Oh, definitely Reach out and get yourself a pair of sustainable meant that it will make you feel good. And they look pretty darn cute, too. You know, we do
Speaker 1: come from a state where you say Vermont, and you know Stephen Colbert can't get to the end of a section without there being Ben and Jerry's jokes. And
Speaker 2: there is a
Speaker 1: certain there is something about Bernie Sanders has become kind of iconic with Vermont, it's Yeah,
Speaker 2: he's been iconic here in Vermont for very long. Time is really fun seeing him get to be iconic on the world stage. Now that's true. But that was not the
Speaker 1: Vermont topic that you were going to talk about.
Speaker 2: No, it was the plow guy. And I had that magic moment yesterday where, yes, I hadn't left my house in a little while and the snow storms that have accumulated snow in my driveway because yes, I did not go out and shovel, not needing to leave my house left a very messy situation. The like. The sidewalk plow goes by, and what it does is it pushes all the sidewalks stuff over, and it creates this line on both sides of your driveway like, and it feel it just packs it down. It becomes Isis. Stuff melts and freezes and melts and freezes, and it's horrendous. And my neighbor is a plow guy. You all have heard me talk about him before, and he saw me out there chiseling away at the and he just came through, and whatever he has on that plow busts through everything because my driveway was completely cleared. It was amazing. It was wonderful. It's like apple pie baking worthy, you know? What's your plow story? Eso
Speaker 1: I was going the other way where the guy that drives the plow on our road was walking up the road the other day and pooch, being pooch was actually out snowshoeing and ran into him. Like, What are
Speaker 2: you doing
Speaker 1: out for a walk? Good, sir. Hey.
Speaker 2: And he said, Well,
Speaker 1: there's a big tree across the road, the trucks down below it. I'm looking for a chainsaw. Do you know the folks in these house?
Speaker 2: So, yeah, that's our
Speaker 1: house. And we have a saw.
Speaker 1: So I spent the afternoon a great big, huge Harry beech tree that's way up on a bank had fallen, and the whole crown of the tree was across the road. So it wasn't just like one big, heavy trunk or something. It was like the whole crown of this big old beach. And I got to know the plow guy. Why, we spent a good bit of time processing that tree out of the road. Yeah, very nice. Very nice.
Speaker 2: There to one. You know, City mouse country mouse version of Plow guy experience?
Speaker 1: Absolutely. And you know, there such a lifeline in our lives And the plowing of this road is we depend on it and it's actually a really it's a nice opportunity for me to get to pay that back some and help one of those guys out with some of their work, too.
Speaker 2: Well, we should probably help our listeners out with some work and get to some questions. Let's do it.
Speaker 2: Awesome Etiquette is here to answer your questions. You can email them toe awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. Leave a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463 Or you can reach us on social media on Twitter. We're at Emily Post. Inst on instagram were at Emily Post Institute. Non Facebook were awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your Social Media
Speaker 1: post so that we know you want your question on the show.
Speaker 1: Our first question is about a joint card conundrum. Hi, Dan and Lizzie. I've been writing a lot of birthday and holiday cards these days and had a bit of a conundrum
Speaker 2: I like
Speaker 1: getting blank cards or cards so that I can write a least a few sentences of personalized wishes. I am married, and while my husband and I have many mutual friends, I'm often writing cards to someone like my brother or my best friend from high school, someone with whom I have a very different relationship than my husband has.
Speaker 1: I don't want to write a generic happy birthday. We love you message. But it's also not appropriate if we both sign a card with a message about being the greatest brother in the world, or about how glad we are to have known you for 20 years for close friends of both of us, we sometimes each write our own message on both the left and right side of the inside of the card and sign them separately. But for someone like my brother, I'll usually write a long message, sign it, and then my husband will write a simple line of his own to sign below it.
Speaker 1: Do you have any advice for how to go about this? Should we write separate cards for close mutual friends instead of using separate sides and for non mutual friends. Is it all right for me to write a personal message and for my husband to write something small? Or should we write something together?
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your wonderful podcast. Best Rina in Toronto.
Speaker 2: Rena, thank you so much. This is this is a great question. It's like, super etiquette question. And I feel like the answer is e feel like everything they're doing. Works like I love the long message to the brother that then has the brother in law timing in it, you know? But it makes sense for the sister to be signing it to her brother and then the brother in law timing in with Hey, man, hope you have a great, you know, great birthday thinking of you. You know, that to me, feels so natural and feels like it would be a great representation of how the three of you all might interact if you were together. You know what I mean? Maybe not. Maybe they're more conversation, but I really liked that one in particular. And I don't think it's the only option here either. No, but it feels like
Speaker 1: a natural one. And there is this, um, sort of etiquette. E problem. That isn't really a big problem that different people have different relationships so that not everyone in the same household does the same relationship to the person is the recipient. And there's a certain ease and convenience and reality toe that, Oh, this household is going to send good wishes to that household. And what was described here, I think, is what in practice, I end up seeing pretty frequently, which is where everyone takes a turn signing. And if you've got a little something to say, that's personal from you. That's the perfect spot. Toe shot it
Speaker 2: down. What do you think about the cards where you're sending to a mutual friend and they both right separate messages on the side? Like, do you think it like? Would it be weirder if, like, your best buddy and his fiancee, like, both wrote to you and pooch about something? Or would it be weirder toe have them both right in one card about something like, you know what I mean? And the third version would be to write a message together that combines your sentiments. You know,
Speaker 1: I think the reality is that I don't I think I'd raise an eyebrow
Speaker 2: at any for any
Speaker 1: of those things. You know, if I get the card with the letter on each side, I'd
Speaker 2: say to myself, Oh, this is kind
Speaker 1: of funny. They each had something to say and I would read both and be like, Oh, that's sweet, That's sweet. And if I had separate cards, I
Speaker 2: So that's great,
Speaker 1: E. Don't think you could go wrong. What is nice is this effort to personalize the message, um, and and to honor those relationships.
Speaker 2: Rena. We know that that's not Ah Holton of hardcore etiquette advice for a very etiquette question, but we hope that it certainly helps you and your husband feel confident sending messages. However you choose to send them to your friends and family.
Speaker 2: Our next
Speaker 1: question is about being loaded on. Linked in e
Speaker 2: feel like that could mean a couple different things. I'm very curious. Hi, Lizzie and Dan, thank you for your incredible show. I've been listening for years. I have a question about the professional Social Media network linked in About nine months ago, I got a new job at a major tech company and subsequently updated my LinkedIn profile. Since this company is sought after by many people, I have noticed a huge uptick in strangers reaching out to me on linked in.
Speaker 2: They have a variety of requests, the most common being a simple connection request questions about an upcoming interview at the company or a request for information about working at the company. I truly wish I could help all of these people, but I don't have the bandwidth to do so. Is it rude to simply ignore their requests and messages? I am all for mentoring and supporting, but I already have channels to do this outside of strangers on LinkedIn. I would appreciate any insight on the best way to respond or if I can simply ignore thanks so much. Best linked in overload.
Speaker 1: Oh, linked in overload. Thanks for the question. There is so much good linked in etiquette. This will give us a chance to dip our toe in just a little
Speaker 2: bit. I like I'm just going to sit back and let Dan run. You guys, This is gonna be fun.
Speaker 1: The big picture on this one is the same. A czar Big picture. If you were to ask a social networking question about a social network like Facebook or INSTAGRAM. And that's that because you don't have to participate in these systems, you have a lot of latitude about how you decide to participate and granted. There are consequences. You can use that latitude, decide to participate badly and ignore all the norms of the platform, and you might suffer some consequences for that. But there aren't specific rules that you have to follow. You do get to make a lot of choices, and particularly around linked in as a networking tool. People tend to fall into two different categories. There are people that use it, a selective networking tool and people that use it as a really broad net catch all networking tools and their two valid and different approaches. And in terms of the responsibilities that you have within your network on Lincoln, people reaching out to you. If I mean real stranger, request people that you don't know what aren't connected to in any way, absolutely, you can ignore those. They don't even require the polite decline.
Speaker 2: I feel like I need to jump in and just mark the moment where I think we have really fully embraced the idea that ghosting might sometimes be necessary. Like just this idea of just or ignoring in this particular case, Since you're not starting something to
Speaker 1: begin with, that's the difference there. For me.
Speaker 2: This is where the signature of overload feels really appropriate because I can Onley imagine, especially if you were working at a really well known large tech company, that you might get enough requests regularly from complete strangers that there is absolutely no way you could entertain them and still get your regular eight hour workday done, you know, or like, or you have to substitute a preferred hobby or something. Um, and I do think that it is really It's just a reality that the number of people who can reach out to us is much greater than the number of people that we could actually be able to respond Thio. And that that's a That's a hard, hard thing to accept. But it's an important thing to understand when you're
Speaker 1: the one doing the reaching out. Yeah, and you're not accountable toe every user on the Lincoln platform within your network, I think there's a little bit more accountability, but frankly not a lot more really, Depending on depending on how you use your network. If you're somebody that maintains sort of a select group or a curated group of friends and contacts, then you might say to yourself, It's worth it enough to me to cultivate this network of people I've invested in these relationships, and I wouldn't go so far as to ignore a request like that. You could say to yourself, You know, I'm just gonna reply, positive or negative, but that you're gonna you're gonna give them the the courtesy of a reply. If that request is coming from within your own network, you don't have to. But that's just something I would think about it as a way that you might handle that. And I don't think you need to apologize or feel bad about not doing it, either. That's the other sort of question that started toe emerge for me is I was reading this one that the work that you do mentoring and supporting people within channels that are set up for doing that is good work. And even if you weren't doing that, it really is up to you to what degree you want to play that role for other people. It's one of the reasons we say Thank your mentors and appreciate them because they don't
Speaker 2: have Thio because they don't have to. And they are. They are often doing so, so much for us.
Speaker 1: And, yeah, it's important. And there are rewards to be reaped on both sides of that relationship. It sounds like you're really aware of that. But also no one has ever benefitted by someone over committing or doing things that they don't feel good about. So it sounds to
Speaker 2: me like you're in a pretty good spot. Lizzie. Am I missing something? What? I think this is all this is all what I was I was hoping to hear in this answer what I kind of expected to hear in this answer. It's a lot of this is, ah, space where you call the shots, and I think it's wise to think about consequences they may have. You know, someone who's interviewing might be interviewing and end up working with you, you know, but for the volume and the frequency that you're getting them, I think it's perfectly reasonable to choose not to respond to certain ones entirely and I feel like I always hear that, like them's the breaks like That's just it. There's, you know, that's how it goes like we all have to be responsible as much as we can in these spaces. But as Dan said, you are not responsible to the entirety of the platform. LinkedIn overload Thank you
Speaker 1: so much for this question. It was fun to take a little turn Looking at LinkedIn etiquette. There's certainly a lot Mawr to say about the topic. If you have other questions, come up in the future. Don't be shy. Ascent.
Speaker 1: Tell me, why are you interested in this job? I need a steady job, Mr Wilding, With the chance to go places I see. Tell me, were you fired? Yes, I would.
Speaker 1: But it wasn't my fault.
Speaker 1: Our
Speaker 2: next question is titled co vid cancelation conundrum.
Speaker 1: I
Speaker 2: have a
Speaker 1: wedding invitation. Quandary. I was originally set to get married last year, July 2020. In December 2019, I sent out save the dates to my 170 guests.
Speaker 1: In April 2020 my fiance and I made the tough decision to postpone our wedding one year and hopes of having our large wedding.
Speaker 1: We sent out our postponement announcements, letting everyone know the wedding was being postponed to July 2021. It's now 2021 our venue has made clear they will be unable to accommodate 170 guests in July.
Speaker 1: We are resolute in getting married this summer. Since we have already waited so long, we will likely have to pair down our guests to somewhere between 10 and 50 people, depending on the vaccine. Roll out. I have several questions. Do I send out cancelation notices? Toe all 170 guests toe. Let them know the wedding has been canceled, even though we never actually sent out invitations and then subsequently issued new invitations to the 22 50 guests. If so, what should the timing be between when I send out cancelation announcements and when I send out my invitations?
Speaker 1: Finally, when should I send out cancelation announcements? I want to give people enough time to make arrangements and decisions, but I also want to invite as many people as possible to our wedding. Thank you so much for everything you do. I love this podcast so very much. Covic bride,
Speaker 2: Covic, Bride. Oh, so many things. What
Speaker 1: a situation!
Speaker 2: I am sorry that this isn't working out. Yeah, it's It's really it is really frustrating. And it is really disappointing, especially when you've waited an entire year and you kind of I don't know about you, but I know a lot of brides that I know have been kind of holding out the hope of like next year will be better. We'll just do it in 2021. It's OK and then to really find out. No, we're still gonna probably have sort of maximum occupancy issues in 2021. For a while. At least it's It's frustrating and disappointing. So we're giving you a hug. If you would like one from here. Yeah, yeah, but I think that in terms of the questions that you asked, let's start with the timing. I do think you want to give people as much notice as possible. You definitely don't want to be doing a quick turnaround of sending out the cancelation in. Let's say, if you're July sending out the cancelation in early May early April and then immediately re issuing the new invitation for the same date but for you know, fewer guests On the plus side, if you did do it that way, the guests who are being invited would, at least because it's the same day. Nothing's really changing for them. It's not a huge rush of trying Thio make an adjustment to something you already knew. Its just continuing on with the thing that you were you were going to do originally. But I think as a consideration to the people who are now, basically, you know, no longer a part of the new wedding plan. It's really nice to tell them a soon as possible so that they can, you know, do what they can toe to make adjustments to hopefully get refunds. If anything had been purchased on DTA, also free up the time that they may be able to use for something else. So, Dan, are you feeling me on that? Like it's like a tough balance, but I I wouldn't do it right at that mark where you're sending out your invitations. I do think you need to send something, though, because you sent to save the date card, and that would indicate people are expecting an invitation. So in response to having sent to save the date card. You need to send the cancelation announcement in terms of sending out your new invitations or, I guess, the the original now adjusted but not adjusted invitations. Since it's the guest list that we've adjusted, that should should follow your standard form. And that would be, I think it's usually about like, eight weeks before, maybe a little more, and that just kind of gets toe follow in its standard format. But it is such a tough one. I know that that you're working with a question of between 10 and 50 people, depending on a vaccine roll out. That's a huge, huge balancing act. And what I might say to you is that work with the venue, keep keep up with them. Keep talking to them about what? You know what what's allowed, what's not allowed, where we're at so that you can know. Gosh, I'm almost of the mind to say, like if he's 50 or your closest and nearest and dearest, you might just take the time to explain the situation to them. But I still that puts you in a position of like inviting people and then uninviting them. I almost feel like there has to be a way that Covic bride here can, like, stand by like like you're on wedding guests. Standby. Like if it's 10, we're not ago. If it's 50 were ago, like if it's 30 these people are ago and that just is so complicated. And I I feel for you. I think a lot of the answer here is there is there is no one perfectly right way to do what you're up against. I think
Speaker 1: that was where I was feeling the tension in this question, the idea of, Well, if I The longer I wait, the greater the possibility that it's gonna open up more and resolving that tension is difficult. And the answer that I think you came down on very early and your answer was, You prioritize your guests and their opportunity toe, not commit to plans or even think of other things. And it's not quite that black and white because there might be people on that list who would love to get that invite if happened in that way. So that's where your natural tension starts to arise, and e don't think you wanna sort of fall prey toe waiting for that to that hope. Essentially,
Speaker 2: I think that in my mind, I'm starting to feel like the thing to do is figure out who those 50 that's your max. That that in July they're really going to allow if it's if it's everybody that they could allow, figure out who your 50 are and definitely send the cancelation to the other 120 who definitely aren't going to make the list, You know what I mean? I think that might be the way to do this. But then you do want about Yeah, because then you've got But although the 50 that air close enough again, they might be close enough, Dent because, like our families, 50 you know what I mean? And it's like I could totally see you sending us a warning of just like, Hey, listen, we're really hoping this is gonna work. But there is a chance that, you know, due to restrictions, things things might not be as open as we're hoping they're gonna be. I could see us like warning within a tight knit family about something like that, but you start to expand out and It's like, Hey, I received a cancelation to the wedding. Did you receive a cancelation of the way? No, I didn't receive a
Speaker 1: canceling the wedding.
Speaker 2: What's going on here? And you could just see where the problem like it's like it's It's It's tempting. And at the same time you start to see the pitfalls. You know,
Speaker 1: for simplicity sake, just canceling the whole thing to everyone who received their save the date and then re inviting the subset that you're gonna be inviting toe. What I'm thinking of is a new party just really simplifies things and makes a lot of sense to me.
Speaker 2: It does. It definitely does.
Speaker 2: I think that the situation is slightly different than the previous time. We've answered this question where it's it's the idea that, yes, you cancel toe everyone and then you re issued the invitation to those who are coming. And the only reason I think there's a tiny difference is that you've got everyone on Lee having received the Save the date. Now a save the date indicates that an invitation is coming. So for the people for whom an invitation is not coming down the road, they definitely need that cancelation. But I wonder, cousin, if there isn't just a little bit of room for the 10 people who are guaranteed on this. You know, if the worst case scenario, they have only 10 people at the July wedding, that if maybe those people could receive just a straight invitation eight weeks before the wedding and not have to need a cancelation. I'm guessing those people are close enough to the inner circle that they already know what's going on. You know what I mean? And maybe I'm just speaking,
Speaker 1: actually follow what you're saying,
Speaker 2: like, and it could just end up being more work. Whereas yours, like you said, simplify it. Just send the cancelation to everyone. The 10 who are definitely coming will know what's going on. You could make the decision about the other 40 based on what the venue says as you get closer to the date like that kind of stuff. But
Speaker 1: I love how you're finding a little bit of wiggle room somewhere between how solid a save the date invite is an actual invite and
Speaker 2: its a difference. And they I'm parsing things, man. I'm parsing Kobe
Speaker 1: Bride. I am really appreciative that you sent in this question and really sorry that it even had to come up. When we got the first wave of these questions, I had wondered to myself whether there would be a second wave of them and was really hoping that we would never see them. But there's a lot of good etiquette here, and we really appreciate a chance to review some of it.
Speaker 2: However, this shakes out whether it's 20 guests or 50 guests or miracles happen and you end up really being ableto have your 170 guests. We hope that you feel married, that you feel celebrated and that you have an amazing time on your wedding day. There's a justice of the peace down there
Speaker 2: will in low honey. But Larry, I wanted a church wedding and all the parties and showers for me, too. And
Speaker 2: my folks that would break Mom's heart.
Speaker 1: Well, we're the ones that are getting married, not your folks. I don't know, Larry.
Speaker 1: Our next question is about a baby sitter bother.
Speaker 1: Hi. Thank you so much for your podcast. I really think it helps us be better human beings all around. I was hoping you could provide guidance for a situation I'm having with my baby sitter. We recently had to change baby sitters abruptly due to our previous babies that are not showing up for work without notice. My husband and I both have jobs that are very inflexible, and we need people who show up when they say they will. Our previous baby sitter was beloved by our Children and left the house in the condition that she founded in which is sadly, not the case with our current center. Our new baby sitter has been reliable in regards of coming toe work, but we have struggled with getting her to fulfill other expectations, such as playing with our kids, cleaning up after our kids meals, helping the kids clean up their toys, etcetera. I have confronted her directly. On several occasions. I e asked her to put dishes in the dishwasher instead of leaving them in the sink or on the counter, asked her to use the Dustbuster for crumbs. Our kids are too young to do this by themselves. I asked her to put schoolwork folders away. I asked her to have the kids start cleaning up their playroom 30 minutes before she was scheduled to leave,
Speaker 1: I confronted her that the boys noted she was always on her phone and rarely played with. Um, I even told her that this hurt their feelings. We even provided a printed out document with expectations, tips, tricks, etcetera.
Speaker 1: I fear that when we hired her, we place so much emphasis on the need for her to show up that she doesn't think we value the other aspects of the job. Despite asking her directly to engage with the Children and keep things clean on multiple occasions,
Speaker 1: it seems as if we need to make thes asks every single day in order for her to do them. Which is not possible, given that we're a work outside the house for the majority of the time she is here and even gave her a sheet with the daily activities and expectations which did not help.
Speaker 1: Others have suggested that this is just not a good fit, but I'm hoping we can fix these issues at least somewhat. As I fear. Continuous turnover is not good for my kids Mental health. Also in the age of cove, it it's hard to trust others in your home and around your kids
Speaker 1: as a whole. I hate confrontation and struggle with it greatly. Any advice is greatly appreciated. Thank you so much. Anonymous.
Speaker 2: Anonymous. I almost fear that this question steps into, ah, riel therapy Answer as opposed to an etiquette answer, because I think you've done a lot of the things that we would have suggested, which is to be clear and explicit. Thio really define the role. If it wasn't upon hiring, defined clearly and Thio give this person the chance to then meet those conditions. I'm just going to straight up throw my opinion out here, Dan, I'm in the camp of your friends. I don't think it's a good fit. And if someone isn't doing the things that you're asking them to do that are the requirements of the job, then you've got. I think it's important to find someone else to do that job, especially if you've done the trying of the we've talked about it. We've written about it. We've made it clear, and we're not getting the result we want. I think that's a that's That's a difficult relationship hurdle to overcome, I think,
Speaker 2: for work
Speaker 1: relationship
Speaker 1: it is and it could be particularly challenging when you feel you've been really clear, and for some reason it's not being heard or you're not seeing it put into action. And that could make you question yourself or wonder with good reason did I? Did I say it right? Did I say everything? I thought I said Was I clear? And, um, that questioning is good. It's useful, but not to the point that it incapacitates
Speaker 2: Dan. I got a question in my head that's coming up because I've done a lot of baby sitting in my day. I've also been a nanny, and for me there was a real difference between the two. The baby sitting nights, the moms would be like, Don't worry about the dishes. No, it's not your responsibility. Or when I would clean up, they would often be like You didn't have to do that. Oh, my gosh. No, no, no. Like you're just here with the kids for a few hours. Like don't worry about it. You know, the house is always a wreck, that sort of thing. Other places, the types of things that you talked about, where expectations set out at the get go of the evening, like the kids know that they need to clean up before bed or they know they have Thio put their dishes in the sink. You know, whatever's age appropriate or whatever the House rules are. But with nanny ing, it was always full on care feeding, cleaning up, encouraging, doing homework with them, doing activities with them, whereas the baby sitting kind of had a much lighter feel. And I just wonder if maybe this particular person is not thinking of the job as seriously. I mean clearly have laid it out at this point, so they should be thinking of. It's serious, but I don't know. Do you think there's anything about sort of those two title descriptions that might have the person thinking this wasn't going to be as as big a deal is? It might really be. I think that you're keying
Speaker 1: on something. There was a post that I noticed when I read the question but wasn't thinking about is part of an answer, but it should be, Which is that that language? A baby sitter? When I first read it,
Speaker 1: it brought to my mind something, um, sort of more temporary or quicker than the relationship that started to emerge in the question. I might be making some assumptions here, but I started toe in my own mind translate baby sitter to nanny as I got farther down or childcare provider daycare provider. As I got further down the question so there might be something there the way that I just heard you describe the way you think about those responsibilities differently to me, sounds like a potential I don't wanna call it last opportunity conversation. But maybe
Speaker 2: you know what you mean. Maybe
Speaker 1: sort of final framing or or a chance to approach that conversation in a different way. And Anonymous says that, um, he or she doesn't like the confrontation finds it difficult, and if you think about it, is having a discussion about the role in how you envision it and how they envision themselves playing it. You might be able to find a way, toe a line or harmonize those two ideas. Or you might discover that really, this is not the good fit that this person really is. Thinking of baby sitting is having a different set of responsibilities than you dio on, and that doesn't need to be a big conflict that can be, ah, important discovery to make between the two of you
Speaker 2: anonymous. We certainly hope that this helps think about the question more broadly, and hopefully maybe gives you one more chance at another conversation. But if not know that it's also it is okay toe to call it quits and move on to something that will work for you because in the end, that is definitely the goal. Is finding ah fit That really works for you and your family.
Speaker 1: Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers. Toe awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463 You can also reach us on social media on Twitter. We're at Emily Post INTs on Instagram were at Emily Post Institute on Facebook were awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the
Speaker 2: show.
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Speaker 1: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer and the topics we cover. And
Speaker 2: today we
Speaker 1: hear from Momo. Hello, Lizzie and Dan. I recently submitted an etiquette salute and was thrilled to hear it on this week's episode. I hadn't mentioned it to my family, and so they were all surprised and thrilled. Just wanted to say thank you have been listening to you from the beginning and appreciate your positivity and light during these difficult times. You are my weekly dose of calm. My daughter recommended your podcast to me several years ago, and I enjoy discussing episodes with her I wish you both good health and perseverance. Sincerely, Momo, Jack and Charlie's grandma.
Speaker 2: Oh, that's so sweet. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much, Momo. And thank your daughter for sharing this show. And I'm just delighted. I have a very close relationship with my mother. We love talking about the media that we share. I'm having a little moment of appreciation.
Speaker 2: I was going to say you're feeling this. You're feeling this totally. Thank you so much, Momo. And thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please keep them coming. You can send your feedback or update toe awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. Leave us a voicemail or text message at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463
Speaker 1: It's time for our post script segment, where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette, and today we're going to talk about announcing engagements. Tis the season.
Speaker 2: It is the season. This is engagement season. A lot of people tend to get engaged over the holiday season and January hits and all the hubbub of the end of the year holidays is done or finished, and it's kind of like now what? And there's this beautiful period that I feel like sometimes gets skipped over, and that is like the celebration of the engagement itself. I feel like people kind of have gone the direction of I've announced it on on social media. I'm done and it's not quite like that. Typically, you do really want to make sure that anyone who is really special to your life that you you call them and tell them directly or or tell them when you see them directly and that you're not wait too too long to do that. But once you've kind of covered the basis right, the immediate family, the very bestest of friends, the godparents, people like that, I think then it's okay to open it up and do that that big online posting. But there's another posting that's really traditional on Dan. I don't remember. Did you improve? You do this? Did you do a newspaper posting engagement or your wedding?
Speaker 1: Well, we know we thought about pulling strings and doing The New York Times one, but we
Speaker 2: didn't Totally, totally. Hey, man, I've had that fantasy, too. Yeah, it's a really traditional thing. It could be a really special or meaningful thing. I remember as a little girl when my baby sitter got engaged seeing her photo in the paper and knowing that this was a big celebration for her and then going to the wedding, it really was. And it is. It is e know. So much of our communities have moved Thio websites like Front Porch Forum for our neighborhoods or, you know, like Facebook for just our personal communities of people. And it's kind of really nice sometimes to touch into that town town community that that's sort of established in there and not online, even though a lot of these announcements that end upon online too. But the newspapers still is a traditional place to do this, and many papers have a form that either you or your fiance or the two of you, um, sometimes a member of your bridal party or your family might fill it out for you or take care of this task for you. Um, if you've delegated it to them, but you can fill this out sometimes they have a space Thio upload her at a photo to it. Other times not. And you might just take a quick peek in your paper and see whether or not there are photos or no photos with the announcements traditionally and then the wording is really up to you, sort of. And I mean that to the that whether or not you announce it as if it's your parents announcing or guardian, or whether or not you announce it as the couple is really up to you. So, like a really traditional announcement might say, Mr and Mrs Bride's parents of Fairview, Maryland and you do that you list where they're from, announced the engagement of their daughter, Eliza. Sue Carlton will say to James Franklin. Peter's were pulling names out of hats, Son of the groom's parents and you do their names and then you do of and we'll say, Richmond, Vermont, and then the next sentence. After that, that's all. One sentence is an August wedding is planned, and then
Speaker 1: I
Speaker 2: think right now it's not a bad idea. Thio. Add the date just in case, because we do have a lot of weddings planning a year or two out because of the pandemic. And so it's not a bad idea and that's a very traditional way of doing. It is kind of announcing it from the parents perspective. I think a lot of people nowadays Mary long after their in their parents homes or where it sort of feels like it's their parents announcing their their child and trey into the adult world of social society. You know what I mean? Even though we know, like debutantes and cotillions, often do that long before someone's married or engaged. But it's kind of like, Ah, lot of people now just feel so much more like adults in their own right. They can announce their own wedding, and so they choose to do it that way. And that type of wording would sound like Francis and Parker and Louisa Eleanor Jenkins are pleased to announce their engagement. They could then follow up with info about their parents or where they're from, or their lives as a couple and the wedding date as well. If they wanted to, or you could leave all of that out and just simply have it be the what the one sentence. But you could also include where they're from, or maybe what they dio. That's sort of a thing, but those air kind of the two forms that the the newspaper announcement typically takes nowadays, and we want people to do them still, I think I think it's a nice way for paper to not just be hard news. It's like it can be the community fund news to You're taking
Speaker 1: me back in time a little bit, not just with the newspaper idea. And I'm also reminded that oftentimes we hear about sort of the way local press is in decline and a lot of places. It's a great way to support local press. And it's also true that there are a lot of free weeklies that have kind of taken the place that a lot of the traditional local newspapers used to play and ah, lot of them play the same function in a community and will do things like announced this kind of information. The other way you were taking me back was in your discussion about not scooping people's news in terms of the order of the way you let people know important news, celebratory news even, and I'm just reminded of 10 plus years ago when I joined the Emily Post Institute that was a real question and that this whole idea of being really sure that that you let people are very close to, you know the big and important news first on the Internet was causing all kinds of disruption because it was scooping people and taking people out of order in terms of the way that information was distributed. But it doesn't feel so alarming in the way it used to, which is sort of an interesting sign of how things have changed a little bit, and it's still really good advice.
Speaker 2: So, Dan, there's another aspect of this that I actually found interesting when I went to look it up in our book and kind of research. His answer, and that was that step. Parents aren't typically included in the announcement unless they are an adoptive parent to the child, getting to the person getting married editions, a child getting married to the person, getting married or the other biological parent isn't a part of their life anymore. The other time that step parents do get mentioned is that if it's a lengthier one, So, for instance, in that from the couple example, um, if you did decide to go into a longer version where you added more about your families and things like that. You wouldn't. You would include the step parents in that, but for the very short form ones, they try to kind of keep it as streamlined as possible.
Speaker 1: And how exactly do you indicate that in the short form version?
Speaker 2: So when you list the parents names for a divorce set of parents, you, what you do is you really treat them as individuals as you should. So you might list the mother's name and then you list where she's from. So Lizzie Post of Burlington, Vermont, and then you would do an and and then list the father's name of and where he's from. And that's what indicates that they aren't living together. They aren't together as a couple. They stand on their own independently. Could be a little confusing if they do still reside in the same town. And your listing that same town in ST twice. But if
Speaker 1: you do see it location listed twice, this is probably what
Speaker 2: this is. Why you Yeah, exactly, exactly. But it's that leaning on wording and how it's presented to show us what's going on with it, and I think that that's, you know or what's going on with the relationship. And this is one of those times where because you're making the big announcement in the paper, that sort of thing. You you know, you you try to get that right.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad I've got you in my life Thio track of some of these details for me or help bring them to mind.
Speaker 2: I'm so glad that we have our previous generations who did such a great job on the books that we have out there that I can. I can research it and feel confident in the answer.
Speaker 1: Well, it really is the season and it's a nice time as things sort of quiet down and hear the days air still short. The nights are long, and there's time to think and enjoy things like wedding announcements showing
Speaker 2: exactly, exactly, well, a big, hearty congratulations. Since that is now appropriate to say to all to all of you engaged couples out, there really is an exciting time, and we hope that you embrace it. Don't rush through it too quickly and enjoy the love. This is a This is a fun moment in life Here. Here. How did you know when you were in love with Dad? Oh, I've been in love several times before. I got so I couldn't recognize symptoms several time.
Speaker 2: And each time I thought I'd found my prince Charming.
Speaker 1: We like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world. And that can come in so many forms. Today. We have a salute from Troy.
Speaker 1: Dear Lizzie and Dan. I'd like to send out an etiquette salute to my neighbor Nicky. She always goes above and beyond to make sure that I, along with the others in our building, are taken care of. If we leave trash outside to take to the dumpster later and she happens to pass by, she will pick it up and take it out on her way. She makes a point of saying hi and checking in when passing in the hall, and even leaves the occasional plate of baked goods outside our doors when she has the time. This is so much more than I would expect from any neighbor And it makes me a better neighbor too. Thanks, Troy.
Speaker 2: Oh, that is That is such a great example of a good neighbor, Someone who just says This is easy. I can, So I will. It's like just a dream. Yeah, exactly. Like just a dream.
Speaker 1: Troy, Thank you so much for this salute. Hopefully, it provides inspiration for a few other better neighbors out there.
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Speaker 1: talented Chris Albertine and it's assistant produced by the Incredible Bridget Out Thanks. Chris and Bridget,
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