Episode 336 - Inside Out
In this episode of Awesome Etiquette
Welcome to Awesome Etiquette, where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. On today’s show we take your questions on turning down being in the wedding party, not wanting people to borrow your expensive items, losing control when others are planning your baby shower and how to politely check on someone’s plus one when they may have broken up before the wedding. For Awesome Etiquette Sustaining members our question is about how to show support when you can’t go to the funeral. Plus your most excellent feedback, etiquette salute and postscript where we discuss anger management.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social courtesy that's old fashioned.
Speaker 2: Watch how busy post and damn posts and act as host and hostess.
Speaker 2: They know that courtesy means showing respect,
Speaker 1: thinking of the other person. Really Friendliness.
Speaker 2: Hello and welcome toe Awesome etiquette,
Speaker 1: where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty.
Speaker 2: On today's show, we take your questions on turning down, being in the wedding party, not wanting people to borrow your expensive items, losing control when others air, planning your baby shower and how to politely check on someone's plus one when they may have broken up before the wedding.
Speaker 1: For awesome etiquette sustaining members, our question of the week is about how to show support when you can't go to a funeral,
Speaker 2: plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute on a post script where we discuss anger management. All that's coming up
Speaker 2: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute.
Speaker 1: I'm Lizzie Post
Speaker 2: and I'm Dan Post setting.
Speaker 1: I almost forgot who I waas.
Speaker 2: You have a brain E
Speaker 1: finally started responding to reporters or basically anyone who's reaching out to me this week and saying My my brain is mush and until this manuscript is finished, it will stay mush. It's starting to feel like that because I'm starting to put that kind of pressure on you with it, too. It's like, This is this is the end, like we're turning in the first half of the 20th edition on Monday and sitting here as the weekend is ahead of us, and it's the last chance to kind of look at it, really get everything we want into it and adjust the stuff and say that what you wrote two weeks ago was terrible, just awful. And you can't believe you almost submitted something like that. And you're so grateful that you gave yourself enough time to actually look over this beast, forgetting that you're about to submit it for total editing, which is gonna be this whole process. It's
Speaker 2: gotta be perfect so that I could work on it exactly. Exactly.
Speaker 1: No, but we're going through all the motions of it way
Speaker 2: have to just you have to do me a favor for a minute. Just put all of the etiquette content aside,
Speaker 1: that's literally just surrounding me in my office right
Speaker 2: now. Just do the math for me. How's the math looking?
Speaker 1: The math is looking good. So what Dan means is that we're submitting half of a manuscript and the entire manuscript isn't fully written. So there's still a question of sort of Are you on track toe? Have enough room to write the rest of the book in the next month? And, yes, we are on track. I think right now this half stands it and I haven't even added up the adjustments for today. But 70,504 words and that leaves like, you know, 60,000 in the in the other half, and that actually looks, looks pretty good looks, looks pretty fair oven amount to work with. So that's that's good. That's for for
Speaker 2: audiences edification. It's that remainder that words remaining in the equation that has Lizzie Post waking up in cold sweats in she gets more and more edit that are like, What about this? What about this? And the word count steadily grows, grows and grows.
Speaker 1: It's true. It's like a game every every night before bed I add up my words and I add up what I still have to write, and I think about whether we're going to make it. It's funny. Some days it jumps
Speaker 1: way high and were over in other days were under I think last night the count came in at being 2000 under even what we like have to submit a za total. And so it was That was kind of shocking. Usually you're going to be somewhat over. And so I was like, We've got room to play as of now. But then Dan and I added some stuff in today, and then I took other stuff out. So we'll see what the tally says tonight, but
Speaker 2: it's kind of quarterly. Reports were looking good. Yeah, trend line in the right direction s.
Speaker 1: But it is. I posted a higher etiquette. Some of you may have seen it. I like 3 60 view of my office right now, and it is completely, almost completely water wall. The book is just pasted up on the walls, and I really love this stage of editing. I love, first of all, not hunching over my desk. And second of all, you can really see like I think Dan and I were looking at a section and I was looking at the way, the hugs too long. We spend too much time talking about the hug. I gotta cut it. It's not in proportion to everything else here, and and it's funny how that kind of a drive and and that kind of a perspective on it will make you feel good about cutting things that you didn't want to cut before. And they're good cuts to make its like, extra stuff. You don't need me rambling or us, I should say, rambling in this book. It's really fun, and I also really like as I make marks and as I think about it and sit with it, like, I'll just grab a page off the wall, bring it to the desk and edit what you know, whatever my marks are on it, and then I go put it right back up on the wall, and there's something about that that I really, really love. But this is the stage where I feel like you're in it. It always reminds me of friends where Joey's in the map when they're in London, But you're like in physically
Speaker 2: waiting into it
Speaker 1: on trying to figure things out, like, can I? Can I tell them the stuff that we were just batting back and forth? Eso This is when you know you're just too into your project. You're at the stage like Daniel often come in and add pieces and stuff like he's really great at going out and finding some research pieces and grabbing them in and giving them to me to work with. I am of the two of us designated to spearhead the main writing, so that's why we're set up like that. And we have moments where, like so then the contents in but like Dan's picturing it and like gathering the information this way, and I'm like, picturing it and imagine trying to put it into a certain format or something. And just the sometimes the ridiculous things we end up saying to each other, and then sometimes the very, very practical is usually what brings it around to the kind of go forward position. But it just it does crack me up trying to balance, like okay, so we want this chart on names and titles for these types of government, you know, professions to go this way. But these air, the other kinds of things that are involved within this And do we need like an extra box on the end or a column for, like, notes? Or would you display it this way? These boxes air getting too long. This chart is too big, like the things you end up, kind of like nitpicking and like detail ing over end up being laughable.
Speaker 2: I want to start the CDs by alphabetical title of album doing sort them by music genre. I want to serve them by the Dewey Decimal System. It's
Speaker 1: like that. I don't know what what would you tell people about it? You've been You've been sort of you've been in it and watching it all unfold.
Speaker 2: My favorite part of this discussion is hearing you describe the part of editing where you get to engage your spatial reasoning. Oh, thanks. You've been in the language, you've been in the words, and there's a certain relief that I can hear in your voice, and I've watched it. What you've done this and other projects when you can actually print the book out and just push pieces of paper around. And it is it's a different
Speaker 2: part of your brain. It's a different way to look at the content and material. And having been in a generative state for a long time, I e can only imagine what a relief that must feel
Speaker 1: like it. Well, I'll tell you. The other big relief was as I sat last night with the whole first half of the book up on the walls. I was like, It exists like we really did it. This is like an etiquette book taking shape here like it's a very cool feeling and it's def. It's higher. Etiquette had that feeling, too. But it's It's different from the other times we've done this because the other times you've always had sort of something you're working with and working from that are already existed. And this one. You know, when we were talking about New Year's, because I remember explaining to you my plan for tackling the bulk of the writing that's still all needed toe happen and like it's happened like we're here, This is really it's a nice it's a nice moment. Nice feeling, Even though the next two days they're gonna be Who? Crazy editing.
Speaker 2: I'm not going to congratulate you right now, although anybody listening to this could probably do so
Speaker 1: by Monday, when it's in Caitlin's Caitlin's hands.
Speaker 2: Exactly.
Speaker 1: And then we will start on the second half.
Speaker 2: Its gonna be
Speaker 1: okay.
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you very much for for indulging yet another conversation about the work that we're doing. It does feel kind of like all encompassing right now, So it's it's nice to get to talk to someone about it. Well,
Speaker 2: what a 10 year project comes to a head, I think it's no, no, no dispensation is necessary.
Speaker 1: However, you know what is necessary, cousin. I bet you can guess it way Have some questions to get. You got questions to get to in this show. Let's get Thio. Let's do it. Awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions. You can email them toe awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. Leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind or 8028585463 You can also find us on social media on Twitter. We're at Emily Post Institute on Twitter. We're at Emily Post inst on instagram were at Emily Post Institute and on Facebook were awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media posts so that we know you want your question on the show. E.
Speaker 2: Our first question this week is about a wedding party problem. Hello. A friend of mine is having a destination wedding in 2022 she just assumes that I'll be a bridesmaid. I haven't received yet a formal invitation to be a bridesmaid, but from a recent conversation, it seemed like I was part of the wedding party. Unfortunately, I don't want to be part of this wedding party for several reasons. The primary reason being that it's a friendship that I don't value much anymore. And it's a big responsibility that I won't be able to commit to. She's planning an out of town bridal shower, bachelorette and wedding in the next few months. Yes, all this during Cove it How do I decline being a bridesmaid? And should I wait until I received the official bridesmaid invite before mentioning anything? Thank you. In advance. Monica.
Speaker 1: Monica, Thanks for bringing this question up and e like not that I like, But I think it's important to highlight here that there could be multiple reasons, even if they're separate. Whereas Monica's happen to be together for why you might not want to or be able to be a bridesmaid. And that's really okay. It's It's okay. This isn't something everyone has to say yes to or is automatically, you know, a shoo in for the bridal party. It's interesting you speak about the formal bridesmaid invitation. I know in some areas it's more or among some social groups, it's more common to have an actual, literally a formal invitation. But also this could also mean an email that goes out to the people who are intended to be bridesmaids or something like that, or a formal meaning an actual conversation about it. It sounds to me, though, like what Monica's experiencing is where you're talking with this bride and then all of a sudden she's looped you in and you're like, Wait, wait, what? Wait, I'm a bridesmaid. You know, that kind of like surprised I didn't even know I had been included in this group kind of a thing. So with the situation that Monica is dealing with what we don't know is kind of how far down the road did that comment that got made Go like
Speaker 2: you so curious about
Speaker 1: it. And it kind of makes a difference because you wouldn't just automatically call up the bride and say, um hey, I just thought I should make it really clear I actually can't be a bridesmaid because it's still kind of vague. You don't remember having been directly asked. But you were kind of included in the group that that would have
Speaker 2: thinking about me. I'd rather you didn't. Yeah, kind of might
Speaker 1: come off. Okay,
Speaker 2: but it's potentially problematic.
Speaker 1: Eso I think asking to clarify is probably the way to go. You know, say, Hey bride, I wanted to talk to you. There was something you had said the other day, and I just really wanted to clarify whether I was being invited to be a bridesmaid or whether I had already been included in that group. And then you can carry on and get a clear answer from her and then say I so appreciate the invitation. The inclusion, However, I actually really won't be able to make this commitment and be able to support you really well during it. So I'm going to have to decline. And that's the sort of the way you can work that conversation and obviously use your language. Make it fit your voice. But getting the clarity on whether what you experienced was actually an invitation or inclusion or you know what's going on there? I think first, then we'll give you the probably actual invitation to react to one way or the other. And you never know, she might say, Oh, no, I had just felt so awkward and I accidentally included you. Could you imagine? Wouldn't that be such a relief for this particular listener like not likely, how it's going to go, but
Speaker 1: no. But it's also a good
Speaker 2: Um, illustration of how sometimes being truthful and candid might prevent a lot of confusion and be easier than we might imagine. Oh, someone's really gonna be harbor. When they thought I was inviting them, I really wasn't who knows? Maybe there also thinking, Boy, that's a little awkward. This relationship isn't exactly the kind of relationship that I think would support me doing that in this situation.
Speaker 1: It's hard to tell from from what We've got to know exactly what's what's going on and what the bride is thinking here. So you know, it's it is good Monica to to tread carefully and lightly and respectfully,
Speaker 2: I'll tell you, because I also really liked your sample script language. If you are probing and inviting this conversation whichever way it goes, being prepared to decline clearly and with good reason, and also with that positive affirmation that you appreciate being thought of and being invited is a really wise thing to have in your pocket. The other thought that I had was that you might say to yourself, Why would I have that kind of an awkward conversation? Why would I even try? And I'm thinking about the etiquette imperative of needing to clear up a miscommunication. If someone's thinking of you as a member of the bridal party, as someone who they've talked about as being a part of it
Speaker 2: and you haven't clarified that you're not and that's their running assumption. The sooner you address that, the better, because they're going to want to know and and hear that from you. Clearly,
Speaker 1: absolutely. Monica, we hope this gives you an avenue to go down. And mostly we hope that you are able to attend this wedding in the way that feels best for you. If you have any problems like those you've just seen, talk them over, get them settled. Because the only way to have a friend is to be one on friendship is one of the most precious things in life.
Speaker 1: Yeah,
Speaker 1: our next question is titled, Sorry, buddy. No borrowing. Hi, Lizzie and Dan. I just heard barbs dilemma about asking a friend for her kids video game back, and I loved your discussion on lending objects. I feel like Barb and I would be BFF's. We have a very expensive and amazing smart baby bassinet that we originally borrowed from my sister with white knuckles because of fear we would break it. Now. We bought one of our own for baby number two on Black Friday, and I have been asked twice to borrow it because it costs a decent amount. I have declined so far, stating that we were still using it. But really, if anyone asks again, I wouldn't wanna lend it out because it seems too risky. I would be too upset if it got damaged or something happened. How can you politely say no? Just because you don't want Thio? And if it was damaged while borrowed, is it always the borrowers responsibility to replace and fix? Thank you, Tracy. Great question. Oh,
Speaker 2: crazy. Thank you so much for this question. This is a really great opportunity to continue having that discussion that you enjoyed about borrowing things. And there is so much etiquette around it. It is such a phenomenal topic. I want to start off by just applauding your stance. One of the big ideas that we share is no don't lend something that you couldn't afford to lose. It really put someone else in an incredibly awkward position where they're responsible for something that they wouldn't probably wanna be responsible for. And it's up to you as a lender in a lot of ways. Toe help define what that is for you. Because on Lee you could do that. And I think this is a perfect example of something where the cost is just too high for you to feel comfortable lending it, even though it's in that category or class of things that people are
Speaker 2: oftentimes used to sharing and lending I'm thinking about all the baby stuff that gets passed around so frequently between new parents.
Speaker 1: Totally tell me, what would it sound like to you if you were asking me to borrow this thing? You as a parent? And I said, um oh, that's not something I lend out. But, you know, But it did really work. You should really find one. You know what I mean?
Speaker 2: They're like,
Speaker 1: I'm trying to keep. I've got that. I feel good about about saying you can absolutely say I don't wanna lend this out or that's not something I'm willing to lend out. What's the follow up sample language for, like, do you just leave it at that? And then it's quiet for a second. Oh, okay. E
Speaker 2: think so. It's not a responsibility of yours to explain all of your reasoning, Why you could say I'm not comfortable lending that out, and I think that's enough. That idea of sort of comfort can be interpreted enough ways. You could say something like, You know, it's just it's just too expensive and item. I wouldn't want anyone else to be responsible for it.
Speaker 1: I like that one because it helps kind of remind people about like some of the quote unquote preciousness around it. You know,
Speaker 2: exactly. And it's not saying I specifically don't trust you to deal with it. Well, it's just that, generally speaking, I don't feel comfortable with it. You're taking responsibility for the decision that you've made, and most people are going to respect that.
Speaker 1: So when it comes, Thio damaged e think just written about sort of host guest dilemmas and things like that borrowing is is another place where you're right. I feel like in some instances it would be really respectful for someone who borrowed something to completely replace it, offered to replace it, offered to repair it. Whatever it is like right. We return things in the condition in which they were given to us. When we borrow something and if you can't do that, we generally think it's it is on you toe. Try and do that. What if it's a full on break? I mean or or if the person declines, I don't know. I could go down a rabbit hole, stop me before I go down a rabbit hole, But I'm just thinking about the whole damaged topic that's like a whole other issue with lending borrowing,
Speaker 1: it sure is. And I
Speaker 2: feel like there's a reciprocal responsibility that the person who's doing the borrowing has that sort of mirrors the responsibility that the lender has toe, not lend things that they couldn't afford to lose or, um,
Speaker 1: to be clear break. How long
Speaker 2: your lending it exactly. There is a shared responsibility here for this thing that you're both using and taking care of. And if that thing is in your care, is the person borrowing it and it breaks? I think you have to assess how responsible you are. Were you being did it break in the regular use? Yeah, or were you pushing the limits or faster or whatever and and and really being honest with yourself about that? I think there's really room for sort of a borrower or lender dance that's very similar to the host guest dance, where you might offer tow, cover, some damage that happened. It might be accepted or not, depending on the situation.
Speaker 1: I think it's also a lot of people operate under the idea of I'm not going to borrow something I couldn't afford to fully replace, and that also at the same time, I know so many things that I've borrowed or that someone has borrowed from me that are in that category would probably be too expensive to fully replace.
Speaker 2: And maybe that's why you're borrowing it
Speaker 1: it exactly because you can't afford to buy one on your own. And so there's sort of this issue with the idea that if you are gonna lend out a big ticket item recognizing that someone really, truly, even if it does completely go bust while it's in their possession that they might not actually be able Thio offer to fully reimburse you for it. We always tell those who have damage something that they borrowed, or if you're visiting as a guest, Thio offer what you can dio. I think that's a really reasonable place to start from, You know what I mean? And so it's a I think we're still in the position with Tracy of It's fine for her to just say I don't want a loan that out or that's not something I'm comfortable loaning out and leaving it at that, Um, but But let's say, was the sister coming back again? You know what I mean, and now it's her turn again. And she wants one, and she's used it before. She knows how to work it, you know, and you decide. Toe, lend it out. You might even discuss Hey, could we talk about what might happen if if it did break during the months you're using it or something like that? And that might even be something that you you decided to add to a conversation about borrowing.
Speaker 2: Is, is what would
Speaker 1: we do if if a situation happened where it was no
Speaker 2: longer usable? Because I think that's really good advice. I don't think you could ever be hurt by mawr Clearer communication Tracy, thank you so much for this question,
Speaker 1: To be honest may sound easy some of the time it is, but it can be a real problem, especially when wanting to be honest conflicts with other things you want. Todo.
Speaker 1: Our next question is titled Baby Shower Stress.
Speaker 2: Hi there, my mother in law and sister in law's air. Hosting my virtual baby shower, I gave them my list of emails and told them to just send out an invite or paperless post invitation. I handed them everything on a platter, The zoom link using my zoom. Because I have a paid account and the link to the gift registry, I assume they would send out the invitation and it would be done and over with. For some reason, my mother in law decided that the people on the list weren't capable of opening an IV I and R S v p ing just because she isn't capable. So instead, she sent text messages of the invitation to individual people in groups. So the invitation image see, the attached is the only thing that people have. There was no mention of please r s V p on the invitation. So we have no way of knowing who is coming at the very least. And Yvette allows you to see who has responded since gentle nudges to remind people of the event that offers some sense of order and cohesion that also allows you to click the registry link and the zoom link created weeks ago and could already have been in the invitees possession. Instead, the mother in law and sister in law decided they would send it as it got closer in quotes. It feels so disorganized and impractical. In addition, there are a few aunts I added to the list, and those aunts informed me this week that they never received an invitation, even though I gave the hosts their contact info weeks and weeks ago.
Speaker 2: So I had to send it to them myself. When I asked my mother in law about it, she said, I'll take care of it But at this point, I don't trust her to do so. My husband even center a step by step email on how to send the links to everyone. She hasn't sent it out, and the shower is in a week. I am totally in the dark here, and I don't know who is coming nor to the hosts. I am so frustrated. I feel grateful for their kindness to throw the shower. But I'm embarrassed, mortified and annoyed at the same time. I'm trying to understand why I'm so angry, but I can't figure out why. Something that seems so easy and simple has turned into a cluster, and it makes me feel like my wishes were not considered. My mother in law always goes a nontraditional route on things, but instead she ends up creating chaos and confusion. What I want to do now is just creating even myself and reach out to everyone on my own. But I know that probably wouldn't be the best idea. I've reached out to a couple people just to make sure they got the invitation. Would love to hear your thoughts on this tricky issue. What should I do? Thanks. A
Speaker 1: hey. I want to offer you respectfully and only if you're willing hugs from afar. You poor honoree. This is off the
Speaker 2: further the most question, the harder it is.
Speaker 1: Oh, and it just it just is. It's like you're you're supposed to be on a lily pad right now with every
Speaker 2: congratulations Coming, baby.
Speaker 1: A. We are sorry that you're in this position as an honoree. You truly are supposed to be on a lily pad. You're supposed to do exactly what you did. Give the names of the people in any contact information you can provide to the host. And then the hosts are supposed to take care of everything easily. And you are right. I personally am in the middle of planning a online virtual baby shower. Um, for one of my best friends and we agreed exactly as you have the sending out the link and all the information in one fell swoop so that they could just return toe. One thing is really easy, that utilizing services that you can so that there are easy RSVPs and registry link sharing and things like that. It's it's wonderful for the one I'm doing rather than going through a service that then tracks the RSVPs, we're just having them come in to me because I said that would be fine. But it's tricky. There's a lot to manage, and I think where your anger is coming from in that it hasn't been managed well. And now those people that you who are the guest of honor and our support, it is supposed to be your party with your people. They're getting left behind and left out and confused, and that's not fun. And it's making you have to deal with things. I think your anger and your frustration is really justified, or it's at least really understandable.
Speaker 2: Absolutely,
Speaker 1: I would be in that situation to I mean, wouldn't you Dan like thistles. This is frustrating and annoying, and I find myself thinking of two pieces of advice. Dan let me know what you think about them. I think that I would do one of two things either I would say, Well, this isn't going well. See where the chips fall and then throw myself a second shower with someone more capable of the helm and do it, not throw myself. But I would talk to another friend about doing a shower for the people who never got their invitations, who never made it to the just for whom this particular shower failed. There's nothing wrong with having more than one shower. I worry, though, that because there's partial invitations and follow up invitations, and I'm even wondering if their invitations you don't know about. I'm not trying to create problems, but it just I could see that happening to, You know, she, his mother in law runs into someone and says, Oh, I should invite them to the shower to hear send the text off. You know, I think with all of that going on, it could be seen as the fixed shower afterwards, and I don't want to create that because I think that could create more of an issue with your mother. in law. Eso you hear me right now literally saying this wouldn't be a bad idea, but it might be a bad idea In this particular case, I also could see a situation where you unfortunately have to step in and say, I'm really concerned about this. I am hearing from people that they don't have all the information in the shower is a week away and start reaching out to people and giving them the information that you need. I'm worried about stepping on a host toes, but this host is not helping. And I don't I don't know how to balance those two things. Not knowing the mother in law and the relationships all that well and the sun has done such a good job. Like, you know, it's like I feel like they've crossed so many of our awesome etiquette like steps and suggestions that we've we've given to pass listeners right d like where it's like, you know, have have the person who's the son or daughter of the parent who's causing trouble. Talk to them. You know what I mean? Like they've done that.
Speaker 2: No, this is this is, uh, in tow. I don't want to call it disaster territory. But for me, it za nightmare where you've got people that just aren't, um, playing their roles well. And the part where my I wanna offer a virtual hug just kicked in and the meter went to the red was my mother in law always goes the nontraditional route on things and instead ends up creating chaos and confusion because for me and for people is in his podcast, there's such a treasured idea that this can be so much easier that there are, if you really simple things that, you know, you just look to the people that have done this so many times before and it might be helpful to know those things. Um,
Speaker 2: so that obviously jumps right out at me. But the etiquette problems that start to compound that you're talking about where you don't want to step on a host toes I found myself doing the exact same calculus you did. Is this Is this just too far gone? Is this is this to the point where it's a lost cause and you just let it go and try to sell that just best you can and just like you the math of that starts to go in my head, and it's really difficult cause they're gonna people that maybe do show up and go to that one. And now you've divided your shower into two experiences that you maybe didn't just you might really lose the thing that you were hoping for a shower experience with your closest friends and family. So I say to myself, I don't want to give up on it unless I really have to Unless it's just so far gone. And I think there is hope. I think that your first point of contact is your host and you give them one last chance because that's the high road. That's my thoughts on this very tricky issue is you just challenge yourself and you say I'm going to reach out to those and say, This is what I'm hearing. This is really problematic for me. I'm personally embarrassed and just concerned that people aren't going to be able to make it. They're not gonna have time. I want to help.
Speaker 2: And this is what I would like to dio. And then you explain whatever those steps are to make. It is easy for them as possible and really walk them through it, you know, help them send the email and try to involve them so that they have a chance to be part of it. On def, they won't. Then you go that route of
Speaker 2: without calling them out, explicitly contacting the guests that you have to contact for whatever reason and you touch base and you just do it as best you can without throwing your host under the bus. But you tryto get people the information they need so that they could be there and it could be a successful event.
Speaker 2: And Lizzie Post, I want to throw a great big and or but at the end of this, which is that when I start to think about that approach, there are complicating factors just like there are with the other solution
Speaker 2: that if you're talking about
Speaker 2: a lot of different guests and a lot of different contacts, the practicality of it, the feasibility of it, the potential to do it well
Speaker 2: starts to go down and you find yourself in a situation where there aren't a lot of great options, and that's what's so difficult. The
Speaker 2: one other thought I had when I read the final question in this question, which was, what should I dio e thought to myself. This is definitely one of those things that's gone badly enough that I would flag it in my mind, and I probably wouldn't trust these people to manage this kind of event for me in the future. Yeah, but it's a big enough fail in that regard that I think it z up to you to keep track of that
Speaker 1: and you hear me laughing not because of the situation, but because it's and it doesn't that that advice isn't like what you should do for this particular situation, but it's a good what to do in the future. You know, when thinking about trying to coordinate with these folks on bats, and I understand that that's hard because they are very close to you. And those can often be the folks who are offering the most to coordinate and do things when it comes to this kind of life celebration. A. You will know better than us based on the guest list and who hasn't been receiving the invitations and links as to whether or not your plan should be to reach out to those people and say I'm gonna plan a second shower like this. First ones off the rails hang tight, you know? And I could see doing that with peers close front. You know what I mean? Like the kind of more casual guest group And for people who fall in that more kind of formal in your life guest group or senior. So so you know, grandmothers, aunts, uncles, those types of folks doing what you can to get those invitations, get those links to them even though it shouldn't be on you. And it shouldn't be your responsibility There is, I think gonna have to be some kind of a decision as to how How you're gonna handle who on this list. And then, as Dan said, talking with your mother in law and saying this is what I'm experiencing This is what I would like to dio toe help this move forward in a way that feels right to me.
Speaker 2: We think that it is completely reasonable toe have a very strong emotional response to such a difficult situation. We hope that our answer provides you a couple of different options to think about and that you find a resolution that works for you and your family.
Speaker 1: And congratulations on the baby.
Speaker 1: Each day 70 American babies announced their arrival on their curiosity world that surrounds them.
Speaker 1: That world at first is the family. Ah, world full of physical and mental needs. Ah, world long studied by experts
Speaker 1: Mhm.
Speaker 1: Hi, Lizzie and Dan. I'm an avid listener from Sydney, Australia In love with me to your podcast I have a bit of a wedding invite dilemma that I wanted to hear your thoughts about my co vid safe wedding is in a couple of weeks. Congratulations. And all of my final payments for catering and venue etcetera are due this week. I have a close friend whom I invited to the wedding. I originally did not invite her partner because I didn't know him that well. But at her request, I gave her a plus one.
Speaker 1: My issue is that I recently heard something that indicates to me that my friend and her partner have parted ways recently. I'm wondering if it might be a little bit too insensitive to check with her and ask if they're both still coming. But the wedding isn't being paid for by me. And I really don't wanna waste my future in laws money. If I know there will be guests that aren't attending, what would you recommend? Should I ask my friend of her Plus one is still coming. Or should I just leave this for the sake of our friendship and absorb the cost? Thanks for your help. Wedding woes, o wedding
Speaker 2: woes. I hope we can help you with your woes and that you have fewer woes and can enjoy your wedding because it sounds like it's gonna be awesome.
Speaker 1: Sorry. Um,
Speaker 2: I'm partially happy because this is a very dedicated question with a very etiquette e answer. And, um, I want to start off by pointing out the gray area in the contract here and for me, that is around the question of whether or not your friend has responded and accepted her plus one or not. The etiquette advice that I'm working from is the idea that when you issue someone a plus one, it's there's to decide what they do with, but by definition, it's not a named party. It's a guest of your choice to come with you a plus one. So you get the pick who that is. And if partner that that plus one was intended for is no longer a part of your wife. Picking someone else would be the guests prerogative. Now if the person has already responded that they're going to bring a plus one and this is who that person is. Technically, the etiquette responsibility would fall on them toe let you know that plans had changed, and you could probably expect to hear that, Um, in the absence of hearing that it would be awkward toe check in on someone and rescind the plus one based on
Speaker 2: a relationship status change.
Speaker 1: Okay, so this is where it's a little interesting because I don't know if you're necessarily like rescinding it, and and this is where it's a little bit dicey, right? Like
Speaker 1: if she's replied and said, this particular gentleman is joining her, and then he's no longer joining her. As you just said, That's something that the guest should really tell the host. The host then has that dance moment where they could say, Well, is there someone else you'd like to bring? So you have company at the wedding if they want Thio or they could say, Oh, that's too bad. I'm so sorry. Well, we will have a ton of fun together, and we're so glad you are still coming to the wedding and leave it at that. And that would be like the kind of conversation that would indicate a case. She's not getting another, you know, with someone to substitute with. Or we'd be happy to have you substitutes that you've got someone to bring if you want Thio.
Speaker 1: The thought I'm having, though, is that we are talking about one guest. I just could happen with other guests. Covad wedding usually pretty small but caters often plan for one extra meal. They plan for something to go. You know, a chicken breast drops to the floor. You need a backup chicken breast. I hope you need a backup
Speaker 2: Chicken e
Speaker 1: think that it's It's that kind of a thing where the 11 person I feel like maybe not gonna make such a huge difference. If you were worried about this with maybe five or six of your guests or even three or four of your guests, then I might want to get into that territory of really wanting to nail down who is coming and who's not coming or if if things have been changed. But this is tough because there is an etiquette point on the guest. And if they don't make it, if the guest doesn't say, Hey, we broke up, I'm no longer going to be having this person come with me as my date then I don't know with close friend. Yeah, I might consider reaching out and saying, Hey, I just wanted to check in about this a Are you okay? And be you know, like we said before, figuring out whether or not the guest is gonna attend is kind of a part of it. And if your guest isn't
Speaker 1: isn't broaching that with you? Are you really just on the hook to leave their guest as a guest? I mean, maybe. Well, okay, maybe she's waiting to see if they get back together before the wedding. I don't know.
Speaker 2: And that might be their choice. I liked your the feel of the way you were imagining approaching a friend with curiosity and where it's not about necessarily. I've got a big decision to make here, but how's it going are you still planning to bring so and so? And that's information That is great information for a host, whether the cost matters to you or not. Or maybe just that there's someone else who'd love to be there. Who could come if there was, ah, available spot. And to me that practicality starts toe way on the thinking about whether or not it's appropriate task. It's, ah, genuine question, and the more I think about the etiquette of it, because it is a plus one. The rial ideas that it's not connected to a particular partner and
Speaker 1: write the specific partner wasn't invited in this
Speaker 2: case. You didn't get plus one because you had a long term significant partner who you now are no longer with. So the plus one doesn't like the plus one really is about you getting to choose someone to bring with you and the idea of of changing that plus one from a distance based on a change in your social sphere. The more I think about it, the more awkward it feels to me, I guess, is what I'm thinking
Speaker 1: here. I think you're right, and I can hear people in the background you know, saying, but what about the place cards or the all the places where your name might be written out and often a plus one? One of the nice things about receiving a reply card that has the plus ones actual name on it is that you can do things like, you know, write a place card or make sure that any anything that would have a name written on it their name is included. You can also write guest as, and that would be the way to handle it if you didn't know, for instance, if if usually you want to get the name of the plus one to the host. But if you didn't, it would be a way to solve one of those little, many technicalities that people get worried about and used as a reason to justify needing the name. You know what I mean? You don't actually need it. I think one of the biggest takeaways I have, from from what we've talked about, is when it comes to this friend, think of them as as a friend who's going through, presumably a tough time right now, and and use that as the starting point when you're reaching out. And considering this as opposed Thio Oh, well, it would be one more extra plate for my in laws, and I hate to say it that way and just assume that the in laws could afford the extra plate or the mishap. But I do think that generally at least, the caterers I've worked with usually plan an extra thio just in case. And so I think I think that this one guest falls really within that category. And I would I would be putting more of my focus and emphasis on. Is my friend going to feel comfortable and is my friend, you know, Okay, with everything at the wedding, would she be really sad if you know the seat next to her, had a name card on it with the guy's name on it, and she's reminded of the empty you know what I mean? Like, I think that's those are the kinds of things I'd be more looking to try to avoid in this situation.
Speaker 2: Wedding woes. We hope this helps you check one thing off your list and that the rest of the planning goes really well. Congratulations on your big day.
Speaker 2: Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers. Toe awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463 You can also reach us on social media on Twitter. We're at Emily Post Inst on instagram were at Emily Post Institute on on Facebook Were awesome etiquette. Just remember, use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the show.
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Speaker 2: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer in the topics we cover. Today we hear from Philip in Rochester, New York, on meeting people at weddings.
Speaker 1: Howdy, Lizzie and Dan. Just a bit of fun. Feedback on your latest episode regarding going toe wedding single. My mother's uncle married my father's sister,
Speaker 1: and my parents met at their wedding. It was always fun to see who showed up at family gatherings, whether it was my mom's side of the family or my dad's. I have a set of cousins who are both first cousins and second cousins. Love the show since your DPD days. Oh, that's a long time listener
Speaker 2: Phenomenal. Philip, thank you so much for sharing, and I don't wanna be the one there to decipher the 1st and 2nd cousin relationships. When the time comes,
Speaker 1: thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please keep them coming. You can send your feedback or update awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com or leave us a voicemail or text message at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463
Speaker 1: It's time for our post script segment, where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette, and today we're going to talk about anger and healthy emotions. Dan, where is this topic coming? from today.
Speaker 2: So this post script comes directly out of the question that I was asked as a guest on a podcast recently. And the person who asked this question, I really appreciate he's a good old friend of Peggy posts his name's Randall Kenneth Jones, and because we have ah, sort of familial personal relationship in history together, he loves to tell me about the last time he saw my mom and likes to refer to be his Danny when he's talking to Peggy of my mother. But but he's a great interviewer and he loves a good conversation. And he was delighted to surprise me with a question about anger and managing emotions and how you do it. And I really
Speaker 2: I found myself responding to the question in a way that surprised me. I was excited to get it, and he thought that he was maybe gonna like, shocked me a little bit or throw me a bit of a curveball. Sure,
Speaker 1: and your land. I love this question.
Speaker 2: I found the words coming out of my mouth. This is something I think about a lot and rarely, if ever get asked about in the context of etiquette, and it is such a deep mine to dig in. The idea of how we manage anger when we're relating to other people is a question that
Speaker 2: is fundamentally important because of how destructive anger can be, particularly toe relationships into the social fabric of our world.
Speaker 1: I think one of the things that stands out to me right away when you bring that up is the part where you said in our interactions, because there's this place where, like anger, can serve us well, right? I mean, it's It's an emotion that we have for a reason, and sometimes it can seem like in etiquette. We choose to constantly tone down our anger or hide it. Or that you're not allowed to talk about things that are unpleasant or frustrating or difficult or strained. And you and I know that's not actually the case, but that the how you manage talking about it and what you choose to share are really so key towards. I would say in a healthy way or in a beneficial way, managing that anger in relation to other people. You know,
Speaker 2: I absolutely dio and one of the only reasons that I have any sort of ground to stand on as I even think about this topic is that I'm incredibly fortunate that I married a mental health counselor who is good at identifying core emotions and helping me and other people identify feelings and name them and sort them and process.
Speaker 1: Don't feel like you've been experienced it some of this work on the home front, huh?
Speaker 2: I was really fortunate toe watch a movie called Inside Out With My lovely Wife, who job it is so good and for anybody that hasn't seen it. The conceit of the movie is that it? It starts with a birth, and you get to know the characters that represent the five core emotions in the mind of a child. And then you get to see how these five core emotions respond to a challenge that happens in the child's really life. So the big information for me when I first saw this movie is that anger is a core emotion. But it's one of five corps emotions, joy, sadness, disgust, fear and anger, and that the process of integrating that emotion, finding ways to give it expression without giving it control over your behavior is the way a lot of I would say very emotionally intelligent people think about it and thought was a really powerful cartoon concept to implant in my brain. If you haven't seen the movie, give yourself a chance. It's so good. Lewis Black is the voice of anger, who's a little Pixar animated red character whose head lights on fire when he gets fired up.
Speaker 2: But when anger gets control of the board, it's it's usually not a good thing. The outcomes are are usually not great. And what I was really interested in Lizzie in sort of your first reaction to the topic was the difference between anger is an emotion and how that works and anger is something that we're expressing in our relationships with other people and to me that it's the difference between those two things. That is the place where I wanna look for that integration, Um, that allows us toe, have core feelings and feel them, but also not be at their mercy.
Speaker 1: I like it, and as someone who is, I'll say, quick to anger in my head, whether or not it comes out of my mouth is a little different. But I am really curious. It is something we're kind of always trying to damp down or manage. How is it good for social relationships?
Speaker 2: And this is, I think, the really interesting question and one that I've wondered myself for a long time, and the best answer that I can come up with is based on the idea that anger, I think, comes from at its best a place of grievance. And if you really examine that grievance, oftentimes it's connected to ideas about fairness and justice.
Speaker 1: Sounds very familiar to that question we had earlier in the show where our listener was saying thes things that have happened. They don't feel fair and I feel angry. What's up with that? You know, absolutely.
Speaker 2: And I think in some ways you can use it is a real clue. I think it validates that sense of wanting things to be fair and wanting things Thio be just and frustration or anger coming from that that not being the reality. So I think it can motivate you. I think it could help identify things. I think it can also push you into action if it's not something that you've lost control to e think that it could be a motivator. Oh, I'm angry at myself for something, and not to the point where I beat myself down, but to the point where it pushes me and hopefully into something better. So I think anger can can work. I think it can work for us in terms of figuring out what we really want. What we think is right. E. I think it could help motivate us. And as you say, when it sits in the driver's seat and it starts, Thio be the thing that's really impacting our relationships. That's where you can run into trouble and where I don't want to say we need to repress anger all the time, but where you wanna have outlets, foreign ways to understand it and process it.
Speaker 1: I think that term healthy outlets is that, you know, it's like e feel like sometimes way find safe places where we can vent about things where we can we can say the full expression of how we feel about something versus maybe some of the bigger realities about how it really is. You know, the feeling you might be having is that this happens all the time, and it's not fair. Does it actually happen? All the time is a different question. But the feeling and the sometimes the need to express that that feeling of always or that feeling of anger is there is important. And I like the idea of of that that that can have its own place and then how you address the issue with the person can have its own place. So it Z almost like we're not. It's not like you're trying to say, Just repress the anger. It's compartmentalize it. Yeah, maybe
Speaker 2: this is where my IFES Integral Family Systems therapist wife would say, Lizzie, post your brilliant. You're integrating your parts. Thank
Speaker 1: you. I feel like could maybe we send this episode to my therapist for Gold Star check. Mark, I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2: So ask me. Ask me the question about what the other brilliant woman and my family knows about anger.
Speaker 1: So what does the other brilliant woman in your family know about anger?
Speaker 2: I have to share with you something that Anisha shared with me about anger and it was so simple. It's so beautiful. And it worked for me so well, I've been sharing it with anybody that will listen. So I sang a little song for Randall. Kenneth Jones. I want to sing a little song for all of you
Speaker 2: and this comes from the show Daniel Tiger. If anyone familiar with Mr Rogers Neighborhood Daniel Tiger is the spinoff show that kids watch nowadays, that's from that world. And Daniel Tiger is brilliant. He's empathetic, he teaches emotional intelligence. We love Daniel Tiger and Daniel. Tiger sings this little song. When he gets angry, he goes
Speaker 2: when you're feeling angry and you wanna roar and when you say roar, you gotta script your face up and make like, roar face.
Speaker 2: You take a deep breath and you count before one
Speaker 2: to,
Speaker 2: and by the time you count out before on a nice slow four count, you know what that anger has been identified. It has been named its been expressed, and it's amazing how much easier it is to take control and to move forward with that anger managed.
Speaker 1: And I like the breath because you're catching a that oxygen your body needs for your brain to help think clearly in function. But also it's just that, like
Speaker 1: it gives you the time and space, and now you're ready to engage. And you you are your little softer after it.
Speaker 2: Nothing like a little
Speaker 1: song. Bring
Speaker 2: your day. Eso Anisha taught me a little trick for how to deal with anger when you're feeling it on when you feel like you might be about to lose control.
Speaker 1: Audience. I am so incredibly gleeful that Dan just sang on our podcast. But I'm also it's been It has been fun talking with you about these types of kind of core emotions and how the little kids in our lives air learning them and how It's good reminders for us as adults, especially to adults who work together, um, t utilizing them in our own lives. And I think what's really nice and what I really take away from this postscript is the simplicity of it. It's that those tried and true approach is really are just that tried and true. Take a deep breath, you know, like you said, Give it, give it its space. Do you are But take the deep breath get back into Remember that that you do have sort of this. I don't want to put responsibility. Seems like you have your word but but responsibility to participate well with others. And and part of that is this And it I just I like how it all comes together and something nice and simple with it. With the easy take away.
Speaker 1: It will definitely help me. During this last weekend of book Bush, I'm sure I'm going to be calling my Daniel. I'm saying, Dan, where is that?
Speaker 2: A
Speaker 1: Oh, good laugh. Never. Never hurts either. Dan, thank you so much for bringing this to us today. I hope it helps everybody breathe just a little easier.
Speaker 2: That hostility won't disappear overnight. But I'm sure we can work on it
Speaker 2: way like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world. And that can come in so many forms. Today we have a salute from Julia.
Speaker 1: Hello, Awesome team. I have a salute for you that I hope brings as big of a smile to your face as it did to mine. I have a co worker who was expressing to me that she was running super. Lohan sleep lately due to her neighbors through no fault on their part. She lives in a very old apartment complex. There was a sound keeping her up all night coming from below. It turns out it was from the downstairs neighbor's ceiling fan and probably some old architecture er. Unfortunately, as soon as she noticed it, she couldn't unnoticed it, and her sleep continued to get disrupted. I immediately center to this podcast for sample language. Anyways, After thinking it over, she decided to leave a very friendly and apologetic note requesting toe have the fan off at night time and even offering to purchase them a plug in fan if they needed white noise to sleep the following week. The fan was not on it night anymore, and Jess was so thankful, as we all know, run ins with neighbors regarding noise and such. Don't always go so well. Here's the best part. She followed up several days later with a thank you note to the neighbors. Little heart emoji. Great etiquette from both parties. Here. Thanks so much for your podcast. Julia. I love that.
Speaker 2: Put a bow on it. That is awesome.
Speaker 1: It didn't know it really is, is exactly what we talked about. That is good etiquette out in the world. Both parties look at that happen. It can go well. That's so awesome, Julia, That really did put a smile on our faces. Thank you so much for sending
Speaker 1: on. Thank you
Speaker 2: for listening
Speaker 1: and thank you to everyone who sent us something or supports us on. Patryan.
Speaker 2: Please do connect with us and share this show with friends, family and co workers. However, you like to share podcasts,
Speaker 1: you can send us questions, feedback and salutes by email. Toe awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com By phone. Leave us a message or text at 802858 kind That's 8028585463 on Twitter we're at Emily Post Inst on Instagram Where at Emily Post Institute and on Facebook Were Awesome Etiquette and the Emily Post Institute.
Speaker 2: Please consider becoming a sustaining member. You can find out more about this by visiting Patryan. Com slash awesome
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Speaker 2: etiquette. Our show was edited by Chris Albertine and assistant produced by Brigitte Dowd. Thanks, Thanks, Kris and Brigitte.