Episode 338 - Origins

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social goodness. See, that's old fashioned.

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Speaker 2: Watch how busy post. And they're supposed to act as host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person, real friendliness

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Speaker 2: and welcome to awesome etiquette,

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Speaker 1: where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty.

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Speaker 2: On today's show, we take your questions on proper salutations, buying gifts from the registry, leaving a job gracefully and having a limited ceremony space for your wedding

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Speaker 1: for awesome etiquette sustaining members. Our question of the week is about correcting people's assumptions about your age,

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Speaker 2: plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a postscript from Laura Claridge's biography of Emily Post

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Speaker 2: about the origins of etiquette. 1922 Edition. All that's coming up.

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Speaker 1: Awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute. I'm Lizzie Post

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Speaker 2: and I'm Dan Post sending

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Speaker 1: Hey,

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Speaker 2: how's it going? It's almost like we didn't just talk to each

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Speaker 1: other. I know.

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Speaker 1: Um, no, it's it's It's going well this week. This week marked the wrapping up of the writing of all the content for the book. So the second half is now written,

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Speaker 1: and you and I have the fun task of editing it down as much as we possibly can. And I've been very curious about some of the decisions we've been starting to think about and parse out and make as we try to confine ourselves to our parameters for this production.

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Speaker 2: It's amazing what real boundaries will force out of you, but there's a limit that can't be ignored. Then you have to get

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Speaker 1: creative exactly exactly as we've told the audience before. This is a smaller book, but maybe we haven't really put that into perspective. Our 19th edition is wider than the book that we're about to produce.

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Speaker 1: It's probably about the same height I would imagine, but this this one is wider, so our new one is going to be

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Speaker 2: fewer words per page, fewer pages and fewer words per page.

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Speaker 1: It's going to be fewer, fewer words per page exactly, and fewer pages by by almost half. I mean, that's an 800 page book. This is going to be like a 430 ish page book,

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Speaker 1: and you can just imagine when you're sitting there. I mean on this show. Think about the number of topics that we have talked about, where etiquette has a relative important moment in someone's life and they want to know how do how do we handle this moment? And you and I have been talking about things like, What do people want from an etiquette book when you expect to find in a physical version of an etiquette book versus an online

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Speaker 1: resource? We've thought about things like tradition, verse, modern, you know, and what's more important, or can you thread the modern through the traditional like, But it's where you're going. It's just been so many interesting decisions

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Speaker 1: as as we're really narrowing down the content that we're going to present in the 20th edition. And it's also hard because it's going to then come out a year after its like mostly solidified. And so you're always wondering, Oh, my goodness. So did we hedge the right bets?

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Speaker 2: Well, okay, so now we've jumped the rails because they're two very different hard tasks, right? Like there's the hard task of how do you decide what's most essential in an etiquette book, and that's the part of this conversation that I was

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Speaker 2: so enjoying was emerging

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Speaker 1: because it was

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Speaker 2: what you and I have been talking about day after day, and I made the joke. Oh, it's good to talk to you again at the start of the show because

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Speaker 2: the other behind the scenes look that I want to give our audience is that right now you and I spent a lot of time talking about this more than our usual lot of time talking to

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Speaker 1: each other. We're too chatty. Cathy's were not unknown for two, plus our phone calls with each other happily,

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Speaker 1: but it is true. This is a lot of what we discuss is

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Speaker 1: what do we want this particular addition to be and represent? Because there's so much to say. We don't have a shortage of words. The question is as 1/100 anniversary celebration as the 20th edition as an addition, that's going to be coming out sort of. I'm hoping what will be a year into sort of quote unquote back to normalcy, as many people are talking about.

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Speaker 1: It's a really interesting addition to think about, and then when you add the dimensional and the physical constraints that we've given ourselves on it. It's unlike anything we've ever done. I mean, Emily's own first book, which is about the same size that we're going for, is 200 pages longer, and so we're even keeping it shorter and simpler,

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Speaker 1: but hopefully nonetheless interesting and important.

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Speaker 1: I'm hoping that so we pull off

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Speaker 2: and and and and really complete the idea that you've got what is essential to an etiquette book in it. And the reason I said that you were jumping off the rail, you started talking about the future and thinking about this gap that that that is coming between the submission of the manuscript and when it's published.

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Speaker 2: That is a different kind of hard, because that is a hard you can't do anything about it. It's just the way it's gonna be.

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Speaker 1: It's incredibly interesting to be at the stage where it feels like the end is in sight. And yet, like many endings, it is only just the beginning. The editing process is a

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Speaker 1: is a long and detailed one, and and it was interesting, like just getting ourselves set up for that as we move forward. But

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Speaker 1: I got to say, two months ago, this book did not exist nearly in this form, and it feels really good. I can't tell you how many your voices audience were in my head when I was writing Dan. I don't know if you heard them when you were editing,

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Speaker 1: um, but I think some of you will even recognize I think there's a couple examples they're not straight out of, like we told your tail,

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Speaker 1: but the the you'll hear the advice that we've given to you or the sample scripts we've given throughout as examples of real situations that people get into. And, um, that was something I really, really felt as as we've been writing this and

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Speaker 1: there are so many topics we could have added, I'm glad we have all the constraints that we do there. There are good things to have in place. It's been a really good challenge,

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Speaker 1: and I do promise we will find other things to talk about. It's just that this has been such a

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Speaker 1: a monumental undertaking. It was one we weren't certain, uh, like there was questioning whether or not we should be directly doing it or whether we were going to hire an outside writer to help us or outside editor to help us. There have been questions about just exactly what this book should be.

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Speaker 1: You know, whether it's a celebration or whether it's just the next one in line, whether or not we even a time to get it in for it to be a celebration of the 100 year anniversary.

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Speaker 1: It's been a book that we've also been talking about since I joined Emily Post. So then, definitely since you joined them at least a decade. So

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Speaker 2: at least a decade

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Speaker 1: to decade I want to thank our listeners, um, and our social media audience for kind of being with us on on the journey of creating it, because it is,

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Speaker 1: it is special, and and it is something that we're only gonna write the 100th anniversary book once. And so it's been a really special two months, and I want to say I'm really proud of the work we've done so far, and I'm excited to make it even better and then eventually to get it into people's hands. But

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Speaker 1: this actually has been a really big deal for our company and I think my hope at least is that this book really sets us up to take Emily Post etiquette through the next century.

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Speaker 2: Was he post? I have good confidence that it will

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Speaker 1: be good.

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Speaker 1: Well, with all book things aside, how about we get to some listener questions?

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Speaker 2: Let's do it.

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Speaker 2: Mhm.

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Speaker 1: Yeah,

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Speaker 1: awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions. You can email them to awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. Leave a voicemail or text at 802858 k i n d. That's 8028585463 Or you can reach us on social media on Twitter. We're at Emily Post. Install on Instagram We are at Emily Post Institute and on Facebook were awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media posts so that we know you want your question on the show.

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Speaker 1: Mhm.

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Speaker 2: Our first question this week is about salutation scenarios.

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Speaker 2: Dear Dan and Lizzie Thank you for continuing to be a weekly dose of sunshine in the midst of a crazy world and some very cold times. I always look forward to hearing the podcast and the extra sustaining member question each week.

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Speaker 2: I was raised to use dear sir or madam as a salutation when writing a note to an unknown recipient no information at all as to who might receive it.

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Speaker 2: I am wondering now if there is a more inclusive way to start an email or letter, one that does not constrain it to binary male. Identifying or female identifying persons, dear colleagues feels a bit strange when it is going to someone I haven't worked with before. So they are not yet. My colleague

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Speaker 2: and I have always felt that to whom it may concern seems rather stiff and a bit unfriendly. Are there new forms of address that we can consider to make sure we are being as considerate and respectful of those we have not met yet, either in person or virtually in our communications.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for your thoughts, ideas and advice. Sincerely yours, Catherine.

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Speaker 1: Catherine, Thank you so much for the question. This is These are exactly some of the questions we've been thinking about as we write this 20th edition. Yeah, this is very much so been on my mind. And I like the way you present it when you're doing the email or a letter because

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Speaker 1: it is a little bit different from, for instance, where you might change how you greet a group, right? So rather than starting a speech to a big room of people by saying, You know, ladies and gentlemen, you might say everyone may have your attention or

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Speaker 1: good evening, everyone, or welcome my friends, you know, or

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Speaker 1: whatever is befitting for for the group that you're speaking to, there are sort of non gendered group phrases that we can use,

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Speaker 1: but to whom it may concern for me is probably if you really don't know this person and you're reaching out to them, not stiff or inappropriate. I I know what you mean by it feels a little bit that way, especially. This is not something we use that often these days.

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Speaker 1: But I do think that it works.

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Speaker 1: I'm not as big a fan, even though I think it's successful of when people just say hello comma. But I don't know. It's Dan. What do you think? We get a lot of emails and letters like this at the institute and I think I would prefer hello, comma to dear Sir or madam for exactly the reason the Catherine stating is It's very gender binary. It is gender binary.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and and I mean, obviously that hello creates a very different impression than the to whom it may concern, does it? In some ways, to me, it's just the it's the dressing. One has a more formal, a little more distant tone in some ways, but that that social distance that formality

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Speaker 2: can be really appropriate and useful In some circumstances, the

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Speaker 2: hello is infinitely more informal. So in some ways, if I was choosing between those two, I would really be thinking about the purpose of the note. What kind of tone I'm trying to strike or set.

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Speaker 1: I think that makes absolute sense.

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Speaker 2: So while you can strike those two different tones, there is another option that is a

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Speaker 2: gender neutral, non binary title that you can use to address people. And that is mixed. And it's spelled when you're using it as a title. Mm. Capital. Mm. Lower cas X period. If you were to spell it out as a word, it would be mixed. M i X capital m lowercase e lowercase x

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Speaker 1: Dan. What I like about mix is that I think as a word, it can function just as sir or ma'am. So I personally, I've been waiting to see more of it. I haven't seen much of this yet, but I have yet to find fault with the idea of writing in your intro, dear Sir,

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Speaker 1: madam, or mix

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Speaker 1: as your three ways of addressing people who you don't know. I don't think we're at a point yet where I just say, Use dear mix as the as the generic to cover anyone or to appropriately address a letter email to someone whose identity you don't know.

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Speaker 1: But I do think that we're getting there and that one of the ways mix MX period has been so well adopted. I see it on a lot of forms. Now I'm even seeing it used more and more in even news articles and things like that. And so I'm feeling like the word version of it

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Speaker 1: could easily be adopted, too. But I'm just wondering if people need to see it more. In this context

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Speaker 1: of dear sir, ma'am or dear sir, madam or mix.

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Speaker 2: I love that idea of including it as another option and when it's nested with those with the sir and with the Madam. I think it starts to be more apparent to people what it might mean if they aren't as familiar with it.

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Speaker 1: Exactly. I

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Speaker 2: think it's a possibility. And as that usage grows,

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Speaker 2: I think it becomes a really strong option. I really like that possibility,

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Speaker 1: Catherine. We hope that this gives you some options to move forward, and we love your inclusive attitude around addressing people whom you don't know.

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Speaker 2: Of course, he does have a special reason for good manners right now, But good manners are comfortable and natural and easy for him now because they're with him all day all day. Well, let's see.

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Speaker 2: Our next question is titled Regarding the Registry,

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Speaker 1: Hello, Liz and Dan. I've enjoyed your show since I was in grad school and am now several years into the real world. I found your show to hit differently at different points these last few years, as I started to navigate the various common life events my friends were experiencing getting their first jobs engagements,

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Speaker 1: adding pets to the mix, moving, buying houses, getting married, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: I'm now circling back to wedding etiquette For my question, I received to save the date in February for an October wedding that included a link to the couple's websites.

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Speaker 1: Their site had a registry, so of course I took a look around. They have listed some kitchen essentials that they could certainly use right away if they received and chose to open them early.

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Speaker 1: My question is, when is too early to buy gifts from the registry? And if I do send something early, should I include a note or send a message to say they can open and enjoy whenever they'd like? I've got my eye on a set of knives. I know the bride to be would make good use of.

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Speaker 1: Is there any reason I should wait?

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Speaker 1: Is there any reason I should wait to buy and send

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Speaker 1: Thanks for all you do in making the world a better place to be best. Catherine.

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Speaker 2: Catherine, I want you to come to my next wedding. I really want to have the next wedding, but I want to have a next wedding just so I can invite you.

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Speaker 2: I don't think we've ever got this question before Lizzie Post.

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Speaker 1: I want

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Speaker 2: to ask you when it's too early to send a wedding present.

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Speaker 1: No, no, they really haven't. And it's an interesting question because you've got to save the date, but not an actual invitation. Uh, my guess is that you like this couple enough. You'd probably want to get them a gift no matter what. But

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Speaker 1: it's really up to you, I might say. Wait until you've gotten the actual invitation.

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Speaker 1: But the save the date had the wedding website. The registry is there. They've already picked things. It's not like the registry wasn't there to choose from. Um, when you get to save the date, it means you're going to get a follow up invitation. It's not like a maybe you'll be invited. So it's a It's a pretty good guarantee.

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Speaker 1: And then, of course, because currently there is still the obligation, and I would really like people to weigh in on whether we still think this needs to be heavily obligatory.

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Speaker 1: But there's still the obligation right now if you don't go to a wedding that you still get a wedding gift. So a lot of me, like says this whole answer points to yes, get it for them whenever you want like as as long as you've got that Save the date. Go for it.

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Speaker 2: So detailed question in an attempt to stump the panel. Is there any danger that having received to save the day but not the official invitation, that it might be interpreted as an engagement gift?

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Speaker 1: Oh, that's a really good question, Dan, because engagement gifts aren't as ubiquitously traditional. Customary, they aren't. Um, it's not across the board. And so, like, I don't tend to think of the registry as something that people would use for an engagement gift

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Speaker 1: you might choose to A, as Catherine was talking about. Make note. Please, please use this gift, you know as soon as you get it. But then the other thing she might make note of is that this is specifically for the wedding. So she might say, I'm so happy to celebrate your wedding. Congratulations. Like I can't, you know, can't wait to attend once we can all gather whatever you want to say.

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Speaker 1: But I kind of like the idea of waiting just a little bit to make it clear. It's not an engagement gift again, even though typically you wouldn't I don't think purchase an engagement gift off the registry.

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Speaker 1: I feel like the registry comes after the engagement party. But maybe I'm really wrong here.

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Speaker 2: When you were first answering the question and you said I in your first instinct was to say I'd wait for that invitation like a little

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Speaker 2: etiquette gold star went off in my head in some way, I was like, Oh, that feels like the right moment for rent would be the starting point for sending

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Speaker 2: the present.

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Speaker 1: And, ladies and gentlemen, this is This is why I'm in charge of

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Speaker 2: the wedding advice and not damn,

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Speaker 1: he goes with ding ding ding. This intuitively felt right. No, I'm teasing you down. I think there are lots of moments where good etiquette is out of intuition like that. And I think that, um

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Speaker 1: I love the spirit of let me give early because they could really use these things.

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Speaker 1: And I'm happy to do it. And I also think you'd be in good stead to wait a little bit. So if you do it now, do the thing where you just kind of make it clear that this is your wedding gift and you're really excited about the wedding you might even say like

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Speaker 1: I was so excited. I jumped right on the registry to get your gift. Now you know, and you might say something like that just to make it clear.

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Speaker 1: Or maybe it inspires you to get them an engagement gift and and a wedding gift. And there's nothing that says that you can't

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Speaker 2: I think you're right. Because that note is such an opportunity. I would not miss it. Anything that you're doing that deviates at all, it requires any explanation, have some fun with it, put it in that note and enjoy sharing all those good feelings that you're having and wanting to share.

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Speaker 2: Yeah,

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Speaker 2: because there's one other thing that we should definitely bring up about this particular kind of gift.

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Speaker 1: Oh, the knives, Yes. So traditionally, when you give someone a knife or a set of knives, you want to give them a penny. And they're supposed to give you the penny back because the the idea or the superstition was that if you give a knife to a friend

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Speaker 1: that it is severing the friendship.

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Speaker 1: And so by giving them the penny with the knife, they quote unquote buy it from you when they give you the penny back, Um, and so you provide them with the penny to buy it back.

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Speaker 2: That's just good

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Speaker 1: etiquette, but it's a really cute tradition with knives, and

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Speaker 1: some people don't know that tradition. But if you if you decide to send them, then you're not just sending them direct. It's kind of it's a cute one to play with for sure.

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Speaker 2: And Catherine, before we leave what is becoming a longer and longer answer? I also have to share with you that one of the first really nice present I bought for Peugeot was a nice knife set. And it is something that we have so enjoyed over the years that, um,

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Speaker 2: I really appreciate your wanting to share this with your friend and knowing how much she's going to like. It brought me back in time to a special gift. I got to give once, and all I can say is that I hope that this gift goes over just as well.

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Speaker 1: How do you know?

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's a very one I wanted.

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Speaker 1: Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this question is titled Worn Out by working here.

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Speaker 2: Hi, Lizzie and Dan. I have a question about leaving a job gracefully. I was just offered a job in another state and need to let my current employer no. I am anticipating that my boss will try to come up with some reason for me to stay like an increase in pay, etcetera,

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Speaker 2: based on past experiences with friends leaving that office,

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Speaker 2: However, I don't think he could offer me anything that would make me want to stay. I have learned what I can hear. And to be honest, there are a lot of toxic people there who I don't want to be around anymore.

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Speaker 2: I know he will also want to do an exit interview to talk about what I liked and didn't.

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Speaker 2: Could you make some suggestions for how to address these scenarios gracefully? Thanks Anonymous.

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Speaker 1: Oh, Anonymous. This is a really good thing to be thinking about ahead of time to be preparing yourself for, And I know my cousin and his very skilled business advice, because let me take a stab at this one.

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Speaker 1: I think that the more that you can be clear as you have been with us on your your own kind of, um, reasons for why you're leaving as you say? I don't think he could offer me anything that would make me want to stay. It's the toxic

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Speaker 1: people. I don't want to be around anymore.

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Speaker 1: And I think that it's a it's okay, to be honest. But be be clear about the things that are really making. You want to leave this job and take this other job and also to stay positive. I feel like while constructive criticism can be really, really useful during exit interviews,

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Speaker 1: I also think that knowing confidently that you're going off to a job in another state that you feel confident about

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Speaker 1: can let you exit with that grace it can be. It can feel like you're getting pulled into a place of Tell us what didn't work for you, you know, like gripe, gripe great when you say, like, you know what I liked or didn't like And I think it's really good to keep your head in that space of what would actually be constructive.

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Speaker 1: And I can say what's constructive because I know I'm I'm leaving confidently.

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Speaker 2: About the only thing I can add to that is to really reassure you that by being honest and forthright, you are

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Speaker 2: doing the best you can for the organization that you're leaving. It is really difficult for organizations to identify problems within organizational culture, and one of the best ways to do it is. And the industry buzzword is through a 360 degree analysis where you ask people to

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Speaker 2: do evaluations of the people that they report to, as well as the people that report to them. And you also make a really big effort to find people who have left the company and figure out why.

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Speaker 2: And oftentimes that's one of the most difficult tasks for people when they're trying to identify problem spots, an organizational culture

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Speaker 2: by having an honest and constructive exit interview,

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Speaker 2: you really are doing them a favor. It's like giving sound

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Speaker 2: criticism on a customer service card. People want to know they want to know how to get better, and if they don't,

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Speaker 2: then

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Speaker 2: it's their loss. You've got a good job in a new place. Obviously, as Lizzie said,

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Speaker 2: you don't want to burn bridges behind you. The world is a small place. You never know when you might want a recommendation or your networks might reconnect with people at a job you used to have.

00:24:17

Speaker 2: But there is also a moment of opportunity where you're not so dependent on that work. And that does for you up to be candid

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Speaker 2: about some of the stuff that you faced without fearing repercussions. And that's a really special moment in some ways that you want to take advantage of with integrity and responsibility.

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Speaker 1: Anonymous. We hope our answer helps, and congratulations on the new job.

00:24:40

Speaker 1: Before we go on with the next exercise, I'd like to make one of my little speeches.

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Speaker 1: This is your first course in preparing for an office job.

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Speaker 2: You're starting.

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Speaker 1: A new career

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Speaker 1: can be fun,

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Speaker 1: or it can be hard.

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Speaker 1: It all depends on the way you look at things. Your attitude.

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Speaker 1: Well, don't forget. The golden rule works there just to the dust anywhere else.

00:25:04

Speaker 1: Treat others as you want to be treated.

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Speaker 1: Our next question is titled Limited Ceremony Space. Hi, Lizzie and Dan. I have a wedding etiquette question. My fiance and I recently got engaged. Congratulations. We're planning a wedding in June of 2022 for about 150 people.

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Speaker 1: We hope by then things will return to quote unquote normal. But if there are government restrictions, we will of course abide by them.

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Speaker 1: We would like to have our ceremony at our church. This is the church I grew up in and it means a lot to me. However, it only fits. 100 people are extended. Family alone is 100 people are reception venue will be able to fit all of our desired guests.

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Speaker 1: We are considering only inviting about 40 people to the ceremony and then all of the guests of the reception.

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Speaker 1: This would likely mean just aunts and uncles, no cousins and some close friends. I would be sad not to include my cousins, though another option would be to cut our guest list to just 100 people. So the same guests are invited to the ceremony and reception. But we would rather not do this either.

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Speaker 1: There also isn't really an outdoor space by the church to hold the ceremony.

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Speaker 1: We would really like all of our loved ones to be at our ceremony with so much new technology in the world of weddings, I have thought of this option.

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Speaker 1: There is a parish hall beside the church. Could we have guests who do not get a seat at the church. Go to the parish hall for a live streaming of the ceremony.

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Speaker 1: They could then join us afterwards. Would guests feel embarrassed or offended with this?

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Speaker 1: Do you have any other ideas on how we can have our wedding at our church? Thank you so much. Anonymous.

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Speaker 2: Anonymous. Thank you for the question. And let me add my congratulations to my cousins.

00:26:55

Speaker 2: You are clearly thinking about this. You're thinking about it well, in advance. I just want to give you etiquette. Gold stars. I like that you have a couple of options on the table and you're thinking about the different ways that they might impact people.

00:27:07

Speaker 2: Um, as you were describing the situation, I was, as I was hearing option one get laid out. I was starting to imagine to myself something a little bit like the final option that you arrive at the idea of an overflow space with a live feed. And it's it's something that

00:27:25

Speaker 2: in some ways kind of happens already. I think it's a good idea. I think it's from my perspective what I'd probably be going with, and I

00:27:33

Speaker 2: I can't say whether

00:27:35

Speaker 2: all guests would feel embarrassed or offended. But I know if I personally were sitting in that space and I was aware of some of the constraints that you were dealing with, I would not be embarrassed or offended.

00:27:45

Speaker 2: Lizzie Post. How are we doing? And the big picture of etiquette around weddings here, I

00:27:51

Speaker 1: think pretty good. It's not unheard of to have a wedding reception be a different size from a wedding ceremony.

00:28:00

Speaker 1: There's and it's it's gone both ways in the past. But sometimes the actual house of worship only allows

00:28:07

Speaker 1: people who are members of the house of worship into it. So that's one place that we see. This happens sometimes. It's the size of it, as as you're mentioning here, that the place that we want to get married is really important to us. But they only allow so many people. And when that happens, the way you handle it is

00:28:22

Speaker 1: you send everyone who's coming to the reception gets what's called a reception invitation, and that literally has the wording on it.

00:28:30

Speaker 1: So and so and so and so requests the pleasure of your company at the wedding reception for and that's really an indication that this is just a reception invitation and at least the reception venue. Then

00:28:42

Speaker 1: you would then to the 40 guests that you're talking about just having at the wedding. You would reach out to them directly or via like, a handwritten note or an actual phone call or a face to face conversation, to let them know that they are invited to the ceremony and when and where it's taking place. But this is a little bit different, and I could see you, including either somewhere on the wedding website really prominently listed, or an insert

00:29:07

Speaker 1: in with the invitation.

00:29:09

Speaker 2: Love those inserts.

00:29:10

Speaker 1: You love those inserts that lets guests know that due to the size of the church, you know, we've had a limited number of guests that can come inside during the ceremony. However, in the parish hall next door, we have a live stream set up so that

00:29:25

Speaker 1: should you like to attend the ceremony, you will be able to,

00:29:29

Speaker 1: and that I think would be the way that you would do this is to get the word out that you're not not invited to the ceremony. It's just you're not invited directly to the ceremony. You're gonna live stream in from next door and I think what's really nice about what you're doing is that right after the event, just as you say,

00:29:48

Speaker 1: everyone can gather and and that will be, really I think fun and nice people will see you come out having just gotten married and that will be really lovely.

00:29:57

Speaker 1: So I think that's how I would play it. I don't know that a lot of people do this yet, but I think it's something that is a really it's a good solution or a good option. I want to say for situations just like this, where it's not the religious connection that's keeping the guest list, actually in the ceremony small, it's the size of the venue

00:30:16

Speaker 1: and I think that that that it's just it's a good solution, but you do want to give people a heads up.

00:30:21

Speaker 1: As Dan and I were pre talking about this, he was like, Yeah, I would be the person that wouldn't be offended at all. I'd I'd show up, you know, right at the last minute. Maybe, like I wouldn't have to worry about, you know, ruining anything, and it was a hell of a sudden I was like, you know, there was some pluses to this idea. You know,

00:30:40

Speaker 1: if someone had a child with them who started really making a fuss,

00:30:44

Speaker 1: they could take them to the parish hall and watch the live stream version and feel like they weren't under that stressful moment of Is my child disrupting this special moment? I could see even, you know, someone who has a coughing fit or something that excusing yourself. But not having to lose out on the whole thing is great. Maybe the coughing fits kind of a weird example, but

00:31:04

Speaker 1: I think this is all all working, the only thing that I had. You said what about other ways to hold our wedding at this church?

00:31:10

Speaker 1: I know a lot of people actually end up using the parish hall as the actual ceremony space. And I don't know if it has enough capacity to hold all 150 guests. If it maybe doesn't feel as special as the actual church

00:31:24

Speaker 1: itself. Maybe Maybe that's why it hasn't been an option for you yet. But that was that was the only other thing I could think of Dan. Did you have any other any other suggestions on it?

00:31:32

Speaker 2: I had one sort of note of caution that I would offer, and I like the idea of this as a good option, given these scenarios where you've got some, some what I would call legitimate constraints or some reasonable constraints. I think the danger is

00:31:47

Speaker 2: the perception that, Oh, I'm just blowing up my wedding and putting people in satellite locations and it's you're not even at the ceremony. But I've got 300 people and we filled the hotel. That's obviously not what's happening here, and it's the counter example that would be why you wouldn't say,

00:32:07

Speaker 1: Oh, anyone can do this

00:32:08

Speaker 2: anytime they want And

00:32:10

Speaker 2: but that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about a very specific situation with a specific solution,

00:32:16

Speaker 2: and I think there's a good etiquette path here

00:32:18

Speaker 1: anonymous. We certainly hope this helps. And most of all, we are very excited for you and your 2022 wedding in June. We really hope that it is able to go off without a hitch.

00:32:30

Speaker 1: Mhm!

00:32:36

Speaker 1: Mhm,

00:32:39

Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:32:40

Speaker 1: Mhm.

00:32:44

Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:32:46

Speaker 2: Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette. At Emily post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463 You can reach us on social media on Twitter. We are at Emily Post inst on Instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute

00:33:07

Speaker 2: and on Facebook. We are awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the show.

00:33:15

Speaker 2: Mm

00:33:16

Speaker 1: mhm.

00:33:18

Speaker 1: If you love awesome etiquette, please consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette. You'll get an ads free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content. Plus, you'll feel great knowing you helped to keep awesome etiquette on the air.

00:33:36

Speaker 1: And to those of you who are already sustaining members, thank you so much for your support.

00:33:41

Speaker 2: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer in the topics we cover. And today we hear from Jessica on people borrowing expensive items.

00:33:51

Speaker 1: Hi, Lizzie and Dan. I just started listening to this week's episode and had to write you with feedback for Tracy, who asked about lending out her expensive, smart bassinet.

00:34:02

Speaker 1: I'm familiar with the product also, and she's right. It is expensive. If I had one. Sorry if I had one. I'm not sure I'd be comfortable lending it out, either.

00:34:14

Speaker 1: Something she could suggest to anyone asking to borrow it is that they could rent or borrow one from elsewhere. Instead, the manufacturer itself rents them out now, so that's one option.

00:34:26

Speaker 1: But I've also heard of many companies whose HR departments have bought a few of these smart bassinets for their employees to use. It may be worth suggesting to any of her friends who asked to borrow the bassinet to reach out to their own employers or their partners. Employers HR to ask if a smart bassinet is available through them.

00:34:47

Speaker 1: It may even inspire those companies to offer this benefit, especially as many of us are still working from home. Any little bit helps when it comes to baby and child care. Hope you're staying warm and have a great week. Jessica who? That is very cool.

00:35:03

Speaker 2: Jessica. Thank you for the feedback

00:35:05

Speaker 1: of the hot tip

00:35:06

Speaker 2: on the smart bassinet. We'll call it the ringing second endorsement.

00:35:10

Speaker 2: The borrowing and lending of baby gear is such a thing, and I could definitely think of a couple items that we got that came with very specific instruction to treat them well and that they would be returned

00:35:21

Speaker 2: to be lent to other. Oh, there's another sister who is going to be having one, and she's gonna need and that it is so you can have it. But this is limited time and keep it in good shape.

00:35:32

Speaker 2: I really like this idea of sending people off to rent their own. I think it's awesome. And I hope more HR departments have these incredible bassinets for their employees.

00:35:41

Speaker 1: I think that's that's an incredible thing, right? Right there, like way to just get more progressive about parenting US employers.

00:35:50

Speaker 1: Um, Jessica, Thank you so much for this feedback. We really appreciate hearing from you.

00:35:55

Speaker 2: Thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please do keep them coming. You can send your next feedback question or update to awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. You can also leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463

00:36:22

Speaker 2: It's time for our post script segment, where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette, and today we're going to talk about etiquette books and

00:36:29

Speaker 1: specifically the

00:36:30

Speaker 2: origin of a particular etiquette

00:36:33

Speaker 1: book.

00:36:35

Speaker 2: We have been talking a lot about what it's like to write the next edition of Etiquette from scratch at an unprecedented time.

00:36:42

Speaker 2: And we thought it would be really cool to check in with the official authoritative biography of Emily Post, written by Laura Claridge, and to revisit what the landscape was around the topic of etiquette when Emily wrote that very first book,

00:36:57

Speaker 2: Lizzie Post, You want to take us away?

00:36:59

Speaker 1: I will. This section begins on page 2 47 in the middle of a section. That's about this sort of other etiquette work that was out and about at the time that Emily was was writing. So it begins.

00:37:13

Speaker 1: By the early 19th century Manhattan book shops and newsstands overflowed with books and articles on good form and proper social usage. Such etiquette writers were talking to the new Americans unaccustomed to being quote unquote in society,

00:37:31

Speaker 1: these social novices as they created a uniquely blended middle class needed to learn what to wear, what food to serve and which people to invite to their parties. Or they might be blindsided by those just to run down the ladder, always nipping at their heels,

00:37:49

Speaker 1: the country's exotic blend of backgrounds and world cultures demanded constantly updating instructions on conduct.

00:37:56

Speaker 1: Manuals seem to appear nonstop, trumpeting opportunities for everyone. No matter where you came from, etiquette indicated where you could end up. As Arthur Schlesinger has maintained, the story of etiquette in America illustrates the opportunities

00:38:13

Speaker 1: engendered by the leveling up process of democracy itself.

00:38:18

Speaker 1: From 18 70 to 1905 or six books a year appeared on the broadly defined topic of manners. Then, for the first two decades of the 20th century, the subject spilled over into popular magazines, littering American living rooms,

00:38:37

Speaker 1: driving the quest for the good life until the first World War,

00:38:41

Speaker 1: when there was a predictable lull in inquiries on local behavior.

00:38:45

Speaker 1: By the time that Emily Post was asked to write her book, the market was bulging again, full of volumes that as far as she was concerned, were second rate.

00:38:56

Speaker 1: Her assessment was correct, according to most historians. Few of the hundreds of etiquette books published in America since the time of Jackson left any more than a thumbprint on American behavior until Emily Post came along in 1922 according to the historian Esther RST.

00:39:15

Speaker 1: Then, in the way that Victrola identified phonographs, Kodak cameras, Frigidaire refrigerators and Kleenex cleansing tissues, Emily Post became a synonym for etiquette.

00:39:28

Speaker 1: Purchasers of her book rarely ask for it by title, let alone its full title. To ask for Emily Post was sufficient.

00:39:38

Speaker 2: Uh, and maybe it still is.

00:39:41

Speaker 1: That doesn't paint her standing out from the fray. Thank

00:39:46

Speaker 2: you, Laura Claridge's. We really appreciate the perspective

00:39:49

Speaker 1: we do. We do. But it's it's interesting to think about the idea that there was so much etiquette advice out there at the time, as Laura Claridge's book points out. And as other historians have pointed out, When Emily Post came along, she really set herself in, and

00:40:05

Speaker 1: the world chose her and her advice as as sort of the go to not the world but the American world, at least,

00:40:14

Speaker 1: and it's so interesting because I remember

00:40:17

Speaker 1: in our business when the Internet first came along and the idea of putting Emily Post online happened,

00:40:24

Speaker 1: and not long after it came the whole like world of of blogging and everything. And you started to see all of these etiquette experts and and etiquette aficionados popping up, giving etiquette advice. And

00:40:38

Speaker 1: the Internet really created this space where all of a sudden anyone could be an etiquette expert.

00:40:45

Speaker 1: And so it was. It was really interesting to see how that played out and where the Emily Post Brandon name held up where it made room for others and absorbed a lot of others. And just what happened. And it's It's not something I would have thought that Emily herself had to deal with back in the day. But this passage really proved me wrong.

00:41:06

Speaker 2: I was also struck with how familiar some of the descriptions of America in the 19 twenties sounded to the America that I feel like I live in today. Super diverse, bustling place, super diverse, global changing all the time. I just think it's a such a dynamic, uh, society that, um,

00:41:28

Speaker 2: I'm not surprised that people are hungry and are thinking a lot about how to get along with each other and how to make that work. And something about this experiment is really remarkable. And it's nice to see the through lines from 100 years ago still continuing today. It gives me a lot of, um,

00:41:46

Speaker 2: a lot of hope that maybe 100 years from now, someone else will be looking back and saying, Boy, those were really dynamic, exciting times

00:41:54

Speaker 2: and you know, it still is really exciting and dynamic times. So

00:41:59

Speaker 2: looking back 100 years, I find myself saying, Here's to another 100 years. Good manners make good first impressions and because your manners are showing all the time, they have a lot to do with how well people like you.

00:42:15

Speaker 1: We like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world, and that can come in so many forms. Today we have a salute from sustaining member David.

00:42:27

Speaker 2: Greetings, Lizzie and Dan. I have an etiquette salute that is a bit different, as it did not happen to me.

00:42:33

Speaker 2: However, it made me feel so good to hear it. I had to share it.

00:42:36

Speaker 2: It's thoughtful and very 2021.

00:42:39

Speaker 2: One of my other favorite podcasts is Curiosity Daily, a delightful show that teaches three science facts every day in a really engaging way. In about 11 minutes. Definitely my second favorite pair of male and female hosts Wink

00:42:54

Speaker 2: So Cody, the male co host, happily had a baby with his wife and took a lengthy paternity leave good for him.

00:43:01

Speaker 2: When he and Ashley, female co host, had their welcome back zoom meeting, she changed her background to a collage of all of Cody's favorite things. He said it made it so much easier to get into the mindset. Her reason, Ashley said, that Cody was coming back as a new person, a father.

00:43:18

Speaker 2: I was touched and found it to be so considerate.

00:43:21

Speaker 2: I hope you are both enjoying your winter and keeping healthy and safe and as a rural person, the words of support for the folks who plow exclamation employee. They are a lifeline best David

00:43:34

Speaker 1: David. That's an excellent salute, Dan. I remember when you came back as a father, and it is your different person at that point. It's a different you. It's a new you.

00:43:44

Speaker 2: It's really exciting. And it is. It's nice to see that acknowledged and celebrated in some way. David, thank you so much for sharing this

00:43:53

Speaker 1: and thank you for

00:43:55

Speaker 2: listening

00:43:56

Speaker 2: and thank you to everyone who sent us something. And everyone who supports us on Patreon.

00:44:01

Speaker 1: Please connect with us and share this show with your friends, family and co workers. And, of course, on social media,

00:44:08

Speaker 2: you can send us your next question feedback or salute by email to awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. You can leave us a message or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463

00:44:21

Speaker 2: On Twitter, we are at Emily Post ends on instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute and on Facebook Were Awesome Etiquette and the Emily Post Institute.

00:44:30

Speaker 1: Please consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting patreon dot com slash awesome

00:44:36

Speaker 2: etiquette. You can also subscribe to the ads version of our show on Spotify or your favorite podcast app, and please consider leaving us a review. It helps with our show ranking, which helps new people find awesome etiquette.

00:44:47

Speaker 1: Our show is edited by Chris Albertine, an assistant produced by Brigitte Dowd. Thanks,

00:44:52

Speaker 2: Chris Um, Bridget, Bridget

00:45:04

Speaker 2: Mhm.

00:45:06

Speaker 2: Mhm