Episode 345 - Magic Wand
In this episode of Awesome Etiquette
Welcome to Awesome Etiquette, where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. On today’s show we take your questions on a bachelor-et back out, turning down offers of help, boxing up leftovers, and a friend who makes not-so-friendly comments. For Awesome Etiquette Sustaining members our question is about dog etiquette. Plus your most excellent feedback, etiquette salute and postscript on what we would do with an etiquette magic wand.
Speaker 1: maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social goodness. See that's old fashioned,
Speaker 1: watch how busy post and they're supposed to act as host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person, real friendliness.
Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to awesome etiquette where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. On today's show, we take your questions on a bachelor at back out turning down offers of help boxing up leftovers at a restaurant and a friend who makes not so friendly comments for awesome etiquette sustaining members. Our question of the week is about dog etiquette plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a postscript segment where dan waves a magic etiquette wand all that coming up.
Speaker 1: Yeah,
Speaker 1: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute. I'm lizzie Post and I'm dan post sending dan. I'm going to take us to a tier three topic. I'm going to be rude and expose you but you are like going connection happy now that you've had your first vaccine.
Speaker 1: I am. It's and it's not just me, it's the
Speaker 1: expanded family network that is now I think majority vaccinated and through their windows. So we're operating with a different set of parameters in terms of how we can get together. And it's so exciting.
Speaker 1: Tell our audience the story that you told me of, of making arrangements to go get your vaccine and the impact it had.
Speaker 1: Okay. So I had another story all prepped in case this came up. But so it was the morning of my first appointment. I had been scheduled for about a month still a few weeks away and pooja had stayed involved on the websites that tell you when appointments open up and she had found an appointment that was, you know, it
Speaker 1: two days away or something and had signed me up for. She was really excited about it
Speaker 1: in the process of doing that. I asked her, I said, you know your scheduling this on one of your work days, are you going to be able to to watch the girls if I have to go inside and do this thing and
Speaker 1: it takes a little longer than we expect? Oh no, definitely. We're going to do it and I can, I can get there and I can watch the girls and get back in time for my next client. And the morning of the appointment, I was up early with the girls and I called my parents and I asked if anybody was available that afternoon to help me out to maybe watch the girls for 15 or 20 minutes while I go inside. So,
Speaker 1: and
Speaker 1: my father was available, Gramps was available
Speaker 1: and
Speaker 1: I was delighted to have an opportunity to spend 15 or 20 minutes with his granddaughters. And when pooch woke up and I told her that I organised childcare and her free time in the afternoon was actually her free time and she could spend it doing whatever she wanted. She squealed. She literally squealed with delight. It was it was everything I had been hoping for in that reaction and I felt it inside myself and it was so nice to hear from her. But it was sort of at the beginning of opening up where we've been managing all our own child care for a long time now and
Speaker 1: all of a sudden there's there's a whole new world of possibilities. I love to hearing about the actual appointment where you went and then you went to do kind of like a treat drive through afterwards and you told me you were starting to feel connection, happy, like
Speaker 1: you were starting to do random acts of kindness because you felt so good about the prospect of
Speaker 1: Maybe being able to hug someone who wasn't within your household and like within the next 48 hours.
Speaker 1: So my father probably hasn't been to a McDonald's in 30 years and
Speaker 1: when I told him that the girls considered um a happy meal, one of the great treats in their life and that we were relatively close to a drive thru Mcdonald's, He acquiesced to a little outing after our appointment and he went through the drive through ahead of me of course and paid for our lunch because he's sneaky like that. And
Speaker 1: so I'm sitting there at the drive through window card in hand and the person is telling, you know, the person in front of you just paid for your lunch.
Speaker 1: I said is that a pain? Is that hard to do? Could you just do the person behind me? You will just pass it on that one. She had a big smile. I was like yeah let's do it. I love it
Speaker 1: because we did just picnic there. Um I ended up having a little interaction with the people whose lunch I bought and they were just so delighted and um
Speaker 1: I told them I was like really it's my father, you know, he covered me and I was I was just passing it back and they thought that was even better, but it was just a simple little human connections, like a chance to smile with a stranger. And um I just appreciated that so so much. Anyway, thank you for asking me to tell the story for prompting because I could never have gotten it out of my own.
Speaker 1: Well, it was an easy way I know that you had had hosting as the topic for this morning's intro and I was like, no, no, no, we're doing this instead. But it was it was really it was it was very sweet and very encouraging, hearing all the ways that you were starting to feel freer and and starting to feel your world open up and that you were engaging with it. I know that,
Speaker 1: You know, throughout this process we've we've wondered, you know, you've been like, I don't know what, I don't I haven't been in a store in literally 12 months. I don't know what it's gonna feel like when I do that.
Speaker 1: I just I love the fact that the feeling that you're getting even after that first shot is that feeling of I I just want to engage, I want to do it. Yeah, no, it's really encouraging and I get to sign up for my shot on monday and I am very excited to,
Speaker 1: to do the same types of things you did and you approach to look for the, you know, sign up for my, my actual shot and then look for a spot that's an open and a cancellation that opens up.
Speaker 1: But I anticipate feeling just as good. Well I can't wait to I have a very similar discussion with you in a couple of weeks in the meantime while I'm still stuck at home. Shall we get to some questions?
Speaker 1: I think that's a good idea. Let's do it.
Speaker 1: Yeah,
Speaker 1: awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions. You can email them to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. Leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kinds. That's 8028585463 Or reach us on social media on twitter. We're at Emily post inst I M S. T on instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute the whole word and on facebook were awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media posts so that we know you want your question on the show.
Speaker 1: Our first question this week is called Bachelorette back out and this arrived as a voicemail from julie.
Speaker 2: I had a question for you and it's relating around Bachelorette parties during Covid.
Speaker 2: So my sister in law, she recently got engaged and she's also having her leading this year, august
Speaker 2: super excited for her. It's going to be in New Orleans, it is a wedding about 100 and 50 people. And so as I'm hearing about it, my comfort level is a little uneasy, but I understand everyone's comfort level around Covid, you know with vaccines and everything is different.
Speaker 2: Side note I'm a planner. So she asked me to be her maid of honor
Speaker 2: and I was like I will throw you a bachelor party
Speaker 2: Now that I've accepted. Two weeks later. I'm thinking about this Bachelorette Party and the possibility of planning a bachelorette weekend for 1520 girls.
Speaker 2: And it's just making my anxiety um
Speaker 2: go through the roof and I don't know how to
Speaker 2: change
Speaker 2: or back out of now that planning a bachelorette party that I had previously agreed to,
Speaker 2: I would prefer to plan a modified weekend where it's just me, her and her other sister
Speaker 2: Because I've seen them frequently and I feel better planning three people versus 20.
Speaker 2: So my question to you guys, I'm sorry for rambling. It's like six a.m. Where I live
Speaker 2: is how do I back out of planning a standard bachelorette party
Speaker 2: and proposed a modified one with just me, the bride and the other maid of honor, who's her sister?
Speaker 2: Second part question.
Speaker 2: How do I inform said Bride that a bachelorette party
Speaker 2: does not include parents? Typically she's really close to her family and she's not someone that really
Speaker 2: follows, you know, bride protocol or norms or wedding planning and all that jazz and stuff. So
Speaker 2: she may suggest inviting
Speaker 2: my mother in law,
Speaker 2: which is fine if that's what she wants to do. But it kind of changes
Speaker 2: the bachelorette party vibe if you get my dress, lingerie parties, so to speak and things like that. So how do I politely hint that it is girls only
Speaker 2: and no parents.
Speaker 2: Thank you. Um and I really enjoy listening to you guys. I hope you guys have a wonderful week.
Speaker 1: Oh julie. That's a, this is a tough, a slightly tough spot to be on be in. Excuse me. Yeah. Like it's, you have good, good feelings about wanting to be supportive. But then all of a sudden this major anxiety is creeping in, dan right off the bat. What's the big piece of advice you and you and I both say the julie should go for?
Speaker 1: I'm gonna start with consideration, respect and honesty and I think the honesty is important. You have to really ask yourself can you do this? Because you said yes, you said you could
Speaker 1: and now you're having very different feelings about it for reasonable reasons I would think. And
Speaker 1: that's,
Speaker 1: that's up to you to decide. You have to be really honest with yourself, making that choice and once you've made that choice and you're clear about it,
Speaker 1: then you deal with the consequences. So backing out of something, it's not necessarily your first etiquette choice. I wouldn't call it the Gold star etiquette move.
Speaker 1: But there might be a Gold star etiquette move. You can pull out here if it's what you have to do and it really matters how you do it. And I think that's where I would really focus this answer. Because if you decide you're going to grit your teeth and go for it, that's what you're gonna do. But I wouldn't suggest that if
Speaker 1: if really looking at it, you say to yourself for my safety, for my mental safety,
Speaker 1: I need to work something out. I think the sooner you do it the better. And really thinking about how you do it the way you are in this question is the perfect place to start. So what you're saying is tell her sooner,
Speaker 1: I think that's the first best part of doing this. Well you absolutely have to. And I think that for me it's like when I was listening to you and I started hearing the words safety a lot. It almost felt like heavily charged to me
Speaker 1: and I could hear maybe a bride or a friend saying, well it's not like I was trying to make you unsafe or why do you think I'm unsafe and
Speaker 1: for this delivery? I might put this more on myself rather than saying, I don't think what you're setting up sounds safe to me. Instead. I would say I was so excited to plan this. And as we started looking at guest lists, I really did all of a sudden get overwhelmingly anxious
Speaker 1: about the number of people we'd be planning for and and having around and I I have realized I'm not ready for this yet
Speaker 1: and I wanted to talk to you about it as soon as possible so that
Speaker 1: Other arrangements could be made or that we could figure something else out Dan. There's a point of this that, that Julie was leaning into that I want to address quickly and let me know what you think about it. But it's the idea of saying I don't want to host a 20 person shower, but I will host you and your sister.
Speaker 1: I don't think you should invite your mother, but I know you'll probably want to invite your mother if I offer to host the smaller thing.
Speaker 1: What do you think about the idea of trying to switch out for a smaller bachelorette party? Well, I definitely think it's a good idea to have some options you can put on the table. Um, and maybe some different scaled versions of the event would be a way to do that. I think that um, offering to throw a party that doesn't include other people who've already been invited,
Speaker 1: starts to bring up some potential problems. So I wouldn't
Speaker 1: I wouldn't propose it as something that would replace the other thing necessarily. It gets tricky. No, I agree with you there that I wouldn't do. Uh it's funny because I'm going to both advocate and and not for something here.
Speaker 1: While I do think it's important that you say I really in in looking at the 20 guest lists and having my anxiety shoot through the roof and not be able to comment down around the idea.
Speaker 1: I can't feel okay hosting that and I hope you'll understand. I'm so sorry I have to back out.
Speaker 1: What I would do is I would offer up that smaller gathering that you're talking about that you and the bride and her sisters and maybe include the mother. If you really if you really think she's gonna want the mother there as either a sort of like apology slash thank you for understanding kind of a gathering together where
Speaker 1: where you're trying to do something to treat these people and not treat them a certain way but treat them as in like something nice, something good, something kind as a way of saying, I'm sorry I couldn't do the thing that I said I was going to do. I think that that would work. But I to dan I worry about the idea of saying
Speaker 1: I won't plan that bachelor it for you, the 20 person one,
Speaker 1: but I'd plan instead a bachelorette. That's just us. I think that starts to feel like you might be missing members of the wedding party itself which could feel really awkward. Uh It just it it starts to feel a little too exclusive to be labeled the bachelorette. I think again I would offer it as a,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry I still want to connect with you but this this is the only way I'd be able to feel comfortable. Um I wonder if one of the options you couldn't offer is too and I don't I just don't know if this would be an exciting way to do it or not but to do a virtual bachelor at for the 20 person and just say, was that what you were thinking? Okay. Well one and then the other was could you offer? And it's hard
Speaker 1: to try to find a replacement host. Oh that's a good that's a good thought. Being part of the process of if she's really
Speaker 1: um at a different place than you and is making different decisions and really wants to have a party that
Speaker 1: you aren't going to be able to host. Is there something you can do to help find that host for her? Yeah that's a good idea.
Speaker 1: But I also thought about a virtual option which is a route that a lot of people have gone but it might be something that's already been considered and
Speaker 1: isn't exactly what they're looking for. Should we tackle julie's final question? Which is the issue of sort of the guests at the party and how you you choose which guests come And that idea that you don't really invite people from the generation above,
Speaker 1: what do you think? You know my rules about bachelor and bachelorette parties,
Speaker 1: there's no rules, it can be whatever you want it to be true. And by that I mean the mostly the guest of honor and hopefully with a helpful assist from the host. But
Speaker 1: some people want something that is um sort of that sort of I think of it as cliche but it's not just cliche, it's it's away, it's done of the young and fun version of the bachelor bachelorette party. Other people have no interest in that whatsoever but would love to do a hike on Kauai with their best friends or would love to spend some time with their
Speaker 1: great grandmother who they never get to see and has made a special, who knows my sister's bachelorette, we did a picnic at this beautiful like estate grounds where they have really gorgeous gardens. I mean short of like bringing kittens to play with, like it was just, we bought all her favorite foods
Speaker 1: and it was just a really nice relaxing afternoon with her closest girlfriends, and it was, it was to my sister to a t
Speaker 1: you know, but I think one thing I have always been delighted about in life is just who enjoys participating in some of those wilder traditions, or the as you mentioned, julie, the lingerie aspect of things,
Speaker 1: it can be really fun to have, sometimes a mom or an aunt or god parent who's like really into that, like
Speaker 1: sometimes they can, oh you know, first of all I would be that person later in life to my niece or something like that,
Speaker 1: but also like, they can sometimes be some of the most fun people at those parties, I do think depending on the theme of the party, that that's something to talk about so that you don't surprise someone who's not going to be that embrace er of those traditions. There are also ways to handle it. Where if um there's sort of like the tamer portion of the party and then there's the wilder portion of the party and you can you can let certain guests. No, it's okay if you don't want to stay for the,
Speaker 1: you know, I think my best friend is sells wedding, uh you know, we were in New Orleans, we were out on bourbon street for the night, like we had a lot of fun
Speaker 1: and there were other parts of the night that were dinner out at a really nice restaurant, like that kind of thing. So you can sometimes have one of these parties where you kind of divvy stuff up. Don't know how easy that is during covid julie. This is such a great question because it's a tough spot and we really hope that our answer helps you navigate it with grace and with poison that you find an accommodation that works for everybody.
Speaker 1: Well, I think there are some good ideas here. What do you think?
Speaker 1: How about talking this problem over? It's worth some effort to learn how to say no and still keep your friends.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: Our next question is titled vexed about Venmo. Hi dan and lizzie. Thanks for being such a pleasant part of my spring. I definitely thought of you when I was doing the spring leaf rake in all my neighbors were being awesome. Smiley face.
Speaker 1: This is part question, part salute. This afternoon I was having a bad mental health time in the midst of a bad money week. Small business hit hard by covid etcetera. So I posted on my facebook, which I used for personal not business stuff about the day I was having and asked for hugs. One of my friends, a fellow artist asked for my Venmo so she could send some money.
Speaker 1: I knew I wasn't in that bad of a place yet. So I thanked her so much and said it would make me happy if she would get herself a treat instead further down the thread. Another friend while she was sending her empathy suggested I should have taken Venmo Friends offer Was I rude?
Speaker 1: I had at the top of my post that I was only looking for hugs, not solutions, but I wonder if I didn't honor Venmo friends generosity properly. Anyway, I couldn't be more grateful to friends and family who took the moment to send a concern emoji and a kind word. Sometimes that's all a bad day needs. I feel like I owe you for a therapy session now that I've typed this love and gratitude jane in Philly
Speaker 1: jane. Thank you so much for the question. And I sometimes feel like the show works like therapy for me to don't don't don't feel bad about that. You certainly don't know us anything.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Um and that right, there is an unintentional example of how it's perfectly acceptable to turn down an offer of something in a way that shouldn't necessarily be offensive to anybody. And my big picture etiquette um point for for you in our answer is that
Speaker 1: it's okay to say no if someone offers to help you out. In fact, it's important that you're able to say that because sometimes you don't need or want that help and
Speaker 1: it's not necessarily up to you to explain all your reasonings. You can be appreciative of the offer and say no without getting into
Speaker 1: all of the details or explanations that could get complicated. So big picture from an etiquette perspective, That wasn't where I saw any rudeness in your in your question.
Speaker 1: And I don't think we saw rudeness elsewhere in the monday night. I saw a little rude this I saw a little okay. I mean, like, do we think that the friend who pointed out and suggested that they should have taken the friends offer? Like, do you think that was kind of rude? Like, someone who's totally not involved? Like,
Speaker 1: at the at the risk of exhibiting the same rudeness by calling out someone else for being rude? I know, right? Like, the many years. Great. I do I do think that in the same thread where someone who read the offer could also read it. It
Speaker 1: didn't feel like a little I'll pull you aside if I notice something happened in conversation that I thought, well, yeah, this is like standing up at the table and shouting, You got junk in your teeth, like it wasn't really just said that, like, and it's entirely possible we don't know the exact construct. Maybe the way the offer
Speaker 1: was rejected could have been better. I don't know. I'm going as far as I can thinking of what got that reaction out of the friend where they said, oh, you should have said yes to that.
Speaker 1: Um and
Speaker 1: if I go all that
Speaker 1: distance in my imagination, I would still say you would pull someone aside and say something like that in private. I wouldn't say it back to them in that same thread.
Speaker 1: It's funny this also has me thinking about the idea of, of finances is something that we especially don't want it to be any longer in the category of don't talk about it ever. But I think there's a lot of tact in talking about it that can make a difference. And I'm wondering if jane had been in a position where
Speaker 1: That offer of financial help might have actually, and even if it was just $20 to go get a coffee and not feel like you were excluded from being able to do that. And that $20 is like four coffees or five coffees, but
Speaker 1: um you know, but that idea that just a little something so you don't have to feel like you're like lacking or that you're like I said like priced out of some really common social interactions or things that might make you feel a little good. You know, I do think that making that offer
Speaker 1: on the side, it's funny like there's part of me that says make it out there in that open thread because it's generous and it's good for people to see generosity, but it's also a generosity that
Speaker 1: might get taken, like might get accepted better if it said like over on that private thread instead. You know, a D. M or a personal message or something like that instead. So it's like I both want to advocate for, you know, show people that you're doing things because it can help inspire others to do the same. And also maybe between friends. This felt like a little too much exposure.
Speaker 1: And of course jane was in the position where she said, it's not that bad. I don't need solutions. Just a little love and encouragement, you know? Well, and that offer the initial offer, Hey, would you share your Venlo? I'd love to send you a little something
Speaker 1: offered in the spirit that you're talking about, where I'm deciding to myself, oh, should I do this publicly or privately? Or maybe they're more likely to accept it privately? It feels more personal. But on the other hand, I might inspire someone else to do it. And maybe this person isn't comfortable asking themselves. So I want to offer
Speaker 1: if you're going that route and you post it publicly. I also think that the reasonable expectation is that you're prepared for a no, you're kind of testing the water a little bit and you're testing it publicly.
Speaker 1: So don't
Speaker 1: think of it as egg on your face if the answer comes back. No, it's really more of a just looking for a little support today. But thank you so much. And then that sets the tone for the threat from there
Speaker 1: jane. We're glad that you're surrounded by friends and family who are willing to offer help in many forms and we hope our answer helps. There you are George. Thanks. Very sure, swell going to lend me all this stuff. That's right. Anything for a friend. I won't eat it for two weeks.
Speaker 2: Mhm.
Speaker 1: Our next question is about trouble with taking food to go.
Speaker 1: Hi lizzie and dan. I too have been a loyal fan listener since the dinner party, download days and haven't missed an episode yet.
Speaker 1: I don't recall ever hearing my question addressed.
Speaker 1: Our weather has been lovely here in colorado and many restaurants have provisioned outdoor heated spaces for dining during cold and wintry weather. What a blessing! I love to eat out and almost always take some of my meal home for another meal.
Speaker 1: What is the proper etiquette about boxing up leftovers when the wait staff do not. Which is often the case during all of the new restrictions and I will add also otherwise.
Speaker 1: Specifically, I'm wondering about the timing. They often bring the container before I have finished eating. Should I ignore it until I am done? Or is it all right to dish into the container and save a few bites to nibble. I tried that recently and it felt like it looked greedy or somehow really off
Speaker 1: restaurants here often have time limits for reservation times. So sometimes we have to rush to finish to leave the table to meet the time restriction. So it is kind of practical to pack up leftovers while finishing the last of my meal. What about between courses? Get a new container for each dish and package before the next course is served.
Speaker 1: Bonus question, if the server removes the butter play between courses, isn't it correct that they should take butter knives and bring a clean knife a couple of times Recently, I've had to request another and or politely decline when they offer to leave my used knife
Speaker 1: thoughts on both question. Best lives on leftovers and there's a little PS tear your photos on the 80 podcast website are just awesome. I confess I rarely look at A E and just listen seeing your photos. There was almost like coming across a photo of old friends. I should have been grateful to have you as part of my life all this time. Exclamation smiley.
Speaker 1: Oh, that's so nice. We're so glad that you've been with us all this time. We're happy to answer these questions.
Speaker 1: I've got thoughts. Okay, look, can we clear the knife question because I know you have an answer for that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no. So I think we're on the same page of this, but correct me if I'm wrong, cause I don't appreciate being asked to hold dirty silverware, especially if the butter plate is gone and there's no place for me to set that dirty silverware. Some restaurants do this as a practice to help limit how much they're washing and things.
Speaker 1: I don't look at the business end of the restaurant when I'm there, I'm there as a customer, as a patron. And to me, it doesn't feel polite, it doesn't feel good to have that dirty silverware just sitting in front of me.
Speaker 1: So for me, that's, that's a, it's a comfort thing. I won't lie. And I tend to think it's nicer when the restaurant takes it away. And I too would say, oh, I'd love to just have a new one if you don't mind. Or like you say, politely decline. You know, I'd love to not leave it if that's possible. It's okay to do. I understand from the restaurant side of it, it's not what they would prefer. Sometimes it's one of the few places where when I'm teaching dining etiquette, I tell people it's okay
Speaker 1: to ask for something
Speaker 1: that the restaurant isn't suggesting. It's perfectly okay. We tell people to ask for a clean knife with the next course or that someone clears the used silverware when they clear the course.
Speaker 1: That's our thoughts on that one. You know, we know it's not always the perspective everybody has, but that's clearing the knife one. What about the issue of to go containers? And I thought this actually went pretty deep.
Speaker 1: It wasn't just the typical issue we hear of is I'm being asked to pour my own stuff into the, into the container at the table. It feels like it could get messy. It feels like I shouldn't be doing this right here, we get that one. But this is more I don't have such a problem doing it. But what's the deal with it? Do I do it per course it's,
Speaker 1: can I save some on my plate or once they bring it? Do I have to just empty everything in dan? What do you think?
Speaker 1: This is one of those etiquette questions where there's no etiquette rule
Speaker 1: Their true, there isn't a section in the family bows book on to go containers at the table and maybe that's an idea for edition 2021. Hey man, we're not done the developmental edit.
Speaker 1: But I go back to some of the big principles that we talk about just aesthetics, trying to keep it as neat as possible. To me, I wouldn't get into dividing up and divvying out the food until I was finished eating.
Speaker 1: Mhm.
Speaker 1: To me, I would as suggested in the question when that box comes to the table, I would think of it as there for me to use when I'm ready, when when I'm done
Speaker 1: actually, when I'm finished, thank you Tricia Post and you're not a turkey in the oven. I am not best friend's mother used to say to me to correct that one, but I also think that if there is a practical consideration, like a time limit that's coming on the other end, then I think practicality is the heart of good etiquette. You might
Speaker 1: be dishing it into the box and taking a few bites as you prepare to clear the table. To me, the idea of a time restriction on a dinner is just so anathema to enjoying
Speaker 1: a leisurely meal or a good meal out. I know, I know, but it's real like people deal with it, it's real if that's the situation, that's the situation. And uh between courses question is really interesting to me. I'm wondering if you could ask them to hold it for you at a weight station or in the kitchen just so you don't end up with a stack of to go containers with you at the table
Speaker 1: or a worse option. Thinking about putting it down on the floor next to you or something like that, because some tables are small, I mean if you're at a two top, they can often be tiny, there's not a lot of room, you know what I mean? To stack things or place things. And if that's the case, I feel OK, asking
Speaker 1: if there's a place here in the server station or something where they could hang on to that
Speaker 1: just for the room on the table. And I'm thinking about the nature of the meal a little bit as I'm making these judgment calls along the way if I'm eating with absolutely other people, if it's a more formal situation, if someone else is hosting,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna be as eager to save that last couple bites that came with a course or I might order smaller abortions. Where another way to go when you're eating out. The way you're describing.
Speaker 1: I go out, we go out, it's a special treat. Were intentionally trying something different, bringing food home to eat later,
Speaker 1: go for it and let those practical considerations be what I do. I couldn't agree more lives on leftovers. We hope that this gives you some options for different situations to feel confident bringing those leftovers home.
Speaker 1: Oh, almost washed your food down.
Speaker 1: That's right.
Speaker 1: Drink your juice a little at a time.
Speaker 1: Doesn't it taste good?
Speaker 1: You just never took time before to find how good food can taste.
Speaker 1: Mother is pleased and proud.
Speaker 1: Our next question is a toughie. It's titled friend who acts like a foe.
Speaker 1: Dear, awesome etiquette. I love your podcast and your attitude towards how to treat people. I have a tricky question.
Speaker 1: I often hang out with my partner and his close friends, sometimes his more distant friends also are present and there's one in particular that is troubling me with his comments. I'll call him tim
Speaker 1: When my partner got an excellent new job, tim chimed in with the following,
Speaker 1: I heard you got a job at blank company Ha! That's the most hated company in the world.
Speaker 1: The company in question is far from hated and is in fact very respected and simply not controversial
Speaker 1: regardless. This is the opposite of what a friend should say when you get a new job and my partner was hurt.
Speaker 1: I was hurt and upset hearing it. How could we possibly respond to that? No one replied and the conversation simply moved on. But it makes my head spin to think about
Speaker 1: his other friends of course had congratulated him and mentioned that this is one of the top jobs in his field.
Speaker 1: Tim also makes ugly comments at other times about our choices for item purchases or when we succeed in other ways. I am gobsmacked and I want to respond next time.
Speaker 1: His comments confuse me because they are the opposite of what a normal responses like and the opposite of what I expect.
Speaker 1: I don't agree with his comments but I feel he so much taints the subject that any protest I make is useless.
Speaker 1: I will avoid him in the future but I will inevitably have to see him again. Sometimes
Speaker 1: I have to be able to say something in response. I feel powerless not saying anything. Do you perhaps have a sample script to reply? Thanks so much. I love your podcast sincerely speechless. Oh speechless. What a tough situation. And I cannot wait to do
Speaker 1: turn this one over to my cousin lizzie post for the sample script because I am like you, I never know what to say in the moment and I don't either lizzie most is quick with the comeback, She is going to be modest right now, but she often times says that thing that I wish I had thought of and come up with a day later, that's awfully kind of you to say, I don't think that's I'm usually going like I should have said this, I wish I was smarter, faster, quicker.
Speaker 1: You're a ninja, You're a ninja. Okay. There is some etiquette here though that I, so that I want to just touch on and the first is just the trap, the pitfall the dangers around cynicism, sarcastic humor sort of dark. Some people think of it as ironic,
Speaker 1: although it's not actually the definition of irony, but people think they're being funny by exaggerating and going to extremes
Speaker 1: and sometimes it is funny, some people love that sometimes that's the nature of the interaction of the engagement, but the reason I say beware is not everybody reads it that way. For a lot of people, your funny sarcasm is just bitter negativity and you've really got to be careful and
Speaker 1: you end up being seen like this person is being seen, this is a caution
Speaker 1: not to our question, ask her, but to anybody out there who might just feel hints of this creeping into their own discourse in some way, like, oh, that sounds a little like me, oh, you know, and in the right environment and communities, by all means,
Speaker 1: but just have some control and be aware that not everybody sees it that way, and the social consequences can be severe. I dislike this person so much. What they bring is negativity, and I just don't want to be around them.
Speaker 1: That's the problem. That's the bad etiquette that we're trying to avoid. And it's a really good example of it. I think it also because can really come across as jealous, and, like in our notes, you wrote, jealous is ugly, and it made me think, and it's also it looks obvious sometimes, and
Speaker 1: it's funny, it might not actually be jealousy deep down under underneath, but it could come across as that. And that also doesn't look good, like, as you said. Yeah, exactly. And so it's not a good look for anyone if you feel yourself starting to go down this route
Speaker 1: um and wanting to reply to things, it's a good time to remember that. That really old adage of, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all
Speaker 1: and apply it. It's not a necessary adage all the time. We we know that there's a lot of not nice stuff that that should get put on the table and discussed in respectful in good ways, but the way that this person is doing it is not respectful. It's not good. It's not helpful.
Speaker 1: I think you feel gobsmacked. Exactly, because of, as you say, it's the opposite of what you expect when you tell us what I got a new job during a time where it's hard to get a job.
Speaker 1: It's like it's really, most people are expecting congratulations, way to go. That's so good. Or even a nice you know, before you, I'm happy for you. Exactly. Not. Your company is the most hated company in the world. You joker can't believe you took that job. I know it wasn't that far, but
Speaker 1: it's essentially like what what comes with that it's
Speaker 1: it is negative and it's nasty. And I also think
Speaker 1: that the right thing is happening that when tim says these things, that the rest of the group doesn't say anything and you you let it stand on your own. There's a lot in modern etiquette where we say, you address it, you deal with it. We talk about it with
Speaker 1: things that people think are jokes, but really aren't jokes that might get set at the table. And we say, hey,
Speaker 1: that's not the kind of conversation I want at my table tonight, like as opposed to ignoring it.
Speaker 1: But I think in this type of a situation that the ignoring it is pretty good unless you're very close to tim and I would hope that one of tim's closer friends would pull him aside and say, hey,
Speaker 1: you keep doing this. It's, it's been noticeable that this is not good sample script, but
Speaker 1: that they would let him know that that really isn't nice and that a lot of people have noticed that that's not nice and they want him around, but they don't want that kind of sarcasm or those kinds of negative comments
Speaker 1: dan correct me if I'm wrong. But I'm feeling like our question ask are speechless is maybe one point too far removed to be the person saying it, not being the person that it was said to, even though it was very similar, the partner that was said about, okay, okay, so I'm not far off base on that one. Okay. No. And the social dynamics your
Speaker 1: interested me because I really want to offer some support to speechless and I would find this kind of character so aggravating in my life, agreeing with you that I I do think you're a step removed to have that conversation. Well
Speaker 1: that it's tough and I also don't want to say just pull back and don't engage with this person because if they are jealous and kind of trying to push you out of that social circle, I don't want to give them that either. Like I'm really thinking tactically about this in the social context.
Speaker 1: Like you, I think that that close friend of
Speaker 1: The partner, the one who
Speaker 1: is your
Speaker 1: really direct connection to this group um to me that sounds like the one person that you might be able to mention something to and if they filter it out. Oh yeah, no, that's a good idea, It's up to them. But then it's also a step removed from you and you're not
Speaker 1: you're not having to engage more with this person who
Speaker 1: I have one other fear about, which is that they like getting a reaction out of somebody. And the only reason I'm not suggesting that you come back with a response that's contrary. Something like, well, actually, that's a really well respected company and we're happy that he got that job.
Speaker 1: Is that that might be the kind of thing that points out the negativity, but it also might be an engagement. And if someone's willing to be that sort of extreme in terms of how they're behaving,
Speaker 1: they could sort of escalated that there might just be really hard of any sort of constructive dialogue. So
Speaker 1: maybe there's a right dosage come back. That's a neutral enough, but I like you because my general instinct is to get clear of it without sacrificing the friendships that you care about in the process. I won't lie though, because when I hear you say the line where you were kind of speaking as if you were
Speaker 1: the partner who got the job
Speaker 1: and you said, you know, well actually you were, you were you were speaking as speechless about the part. Hey, we're really, we're really happy that my partner has gotten that job. I almost want to give the encouragement to the partner to be, it's okay when people say that thing that is jarring and off.
Speaker 1: I think it's a little bit okay to address it, just the way you just did.
Speaker 1: So tim says, you know, oh, that's like the most hated company way to get a job there, whatever it is, as you said, and you say, whoa, that's not what I was expecting to hear. I'm pretty excited about this, you know, And I think that that's a it is a way in the moment, I think to retain a bit of the power
Speaker 1: not too necessary, like, well, your own agency, your power, and not to necessarily just say
Speaker 1: what you did is just so rude, like, why, why would you say something like that? But instead to say, you know, your reaction is that this is my reaction over here. You know, if you're willing to say that and put yours out there, I'm also out here saying this is a good thing that I want to celebrate and feel good about. And I do think when you've got all those other friends who seem to get that
Speaker 1: tim's reaction is not good, they're not jumping on tim's bandwagon, and instead they're congratulating that that actually has a kind of group power to it. And it's not not saying anything, it's it's counteracting the thing. That wasn't good. That just happened without kind of making it a big accusatory thing. Either.
Speaker 1: So easy to talk about. So hard to do in the moment when those emotions are rushing through you. The fight or flight response, the adrenaline even just a little bit.
Speaker 1: But maybe thinking about ahead of time, makes it easier to find those words in that moment. Speechless. We are so sorry that you're having to put up with a tim type. And we hope that our answer helps just a little bit.
Speaker 1: And look, this dispute was settled fairly. And so jerry and Eddie are still good friends, just as they always were. It's worthwhile to know many ways to settle disputes.
Speaker 1: Mhm.
Speaker 1: Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. Leave a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463 Or reach us on social media on twitter. We are at Emily post inst that's I. N. S. T.
Speaker 1: On instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute on facebook were awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media posts so that we know you want your question on the show.
Speaker 1: Yeah,
Speaker 1: if you love awesome etiquette, consider becoming a sustaining member. You can find out more about this by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette. You'll get an ads, free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content plus you'll feel great knowing you helped to keep awesome etiquette on the air and to those of you who are already sustaining members. Thank you so much for your support.
Speaker 1: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer in the topics we cover, and today we're hearing from Jamie, responding to Colleen's teenage etiquette efforts from episode 3 42. Hi dan and lizzie.
Speaker 1: I just listened to episode 3 42 and was so moved by your advice to Colleen, who feels old fashioned and misunderstood by her friends when she practices good etiquette,
Speaker 1: I hope she feels inspired by your answer. I think lizzie's mom is absolutely right. The good people find each other as a teenager. I was also made fun of sometimes for being old fashioned or to proper when I tried to practice good etiquette. As I've grown older, I've found more like minded people who value and practice good etiquette.
Speaker 1: I also feel confident in social interactions as I practice the etiquette I was trained in as a young person
Speaker 1: as I navigate new or unfamiliar social settings. I often draw on the advice I here on awesome etiquette as well.
Speaker 1: People may still misunderstand your gestures of etiquette, but I hope that doesn't stop Colleen or other young people from continuing to practice it best, Jamie. I couldn't agree more. I really I like the idea of encouraging people to lean in lean in no matter what age,
Speaker 1: Jamie, I'm so glad to hear that advice resonated with you and
Speaker 1: like you. I hope that there's some other teens out there who benefit both from Collins. Question and your feedback to it.
Speaker 1: Thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please keep them coming. You can send your feedback or update two awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com or leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463
Speaker 1: Uh huh.
Speaker 1: It's time for our postscript segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette and today daniel post setting has sprung one on me. And he, you asked me before we started recording this segment
Speaker 1: if I had an etiquette magic wand, what would I do with it? What would my three wishes be? Is that correct?
Speaker 1: I know I've been hanging out with a lot of little girls and the magic wand is a powerful thing. I was gonna say the Disney channel is your zone. But no, I I loved the question. And so tell me, what's the idea behind thinking about if I had an etiquette magic wand, what would I do? So,
Speaker 1: it's in some ways a reverse of a question that we often get asked, Which is what are your etiquette? Pet peeves? What are the things about etiquette that bother you, are the things that other people do that bother you? And
Speaker 1: the idea of a pet peeve, if I allowed myself, pet peeves would be a pet peeve of mine, because I don't like the idea of nurturing a grievance about something like I have a little thing and I'm going to let it be my little thing and I'm going to sort of treasure having this grievance in some way is the way it feels to me whether that's true or not. And I
Speaker 1: like the idea of approaching the same question as if there was an etiquette problem, you could fix. What if there was if you had the authority at the Emily Post Institute, that people think you might have to say this is the way it should be. What would be some things that you would choose? Like the etiquette version of the you know, if I had a million dollars right? Like it's like, what would you do?
Speaker 1: Okay, so do you So I'm guessing the game we're gonna play today is that you're gonna you're gonna tell me yours and I'm going to come up with mine. Yeah. I thought we could each do three. Okay, well, let me know. You're OK. Yeah, You you lead us up, lead us up, let me know, let me know what you're thinking about here.
Speaker 1: So, I'm going to start with something that's a little bit related to the feedback that we got today. Um It's something that bothered me as a young person when it happened to me. And I would have loved to have been able to just have everybody do it really well, because it would have made me so much more comfortable and that's introduced people to each other in casual, relaxed social situations, your
Speaker 1: hanging out with your new girlfriend and you meet somebody that she knew before you were dating and she introduces you before the conversation goes on too long
Speaker 1: or you're with a friend and they see another friend from
Speaker 1: different group or organization and they tell you what the connection is, how they know the person when you run into each other somewhere, it makes everything so nice and it doesn't always happen, particularly those casual, really informal situations. So
Speaker 1: it would be really nice if that could just be happening everywhere, would have made my life easier.
Speaker 1: I like, I also like that it's, it's like specific to a particular etiquette within our world, Like introductions. Like I feel like all mine, I'm going abroad in my head as I'm trying to come up with like here. I like that. That's like really specific to a particular point of etiquette.
Speaker 1: That's all right. You could fix some big problems for us. Where are you going first? Okay. Well, okay. Yeah. So dan dance prompting my, my big problems that I'm going to fix because the very first word I wrote down in our script was politicians. I would wave a magic wand that
Speaker 1: allowed people not to, not to spend and manipulate when we're when we're talking about this. Like when we're really trying to have clear communication about big ideas and big money that's getting spent to really, um, you know, improve impact,
Speaker 1: support our lives in the way that we expect our government. Will
Speaker 1: I want the people who have to handle those conversations. I want them to be considerate and respectful and honest to the end of degree and then well, I'll stop because I, I feel like my other one of my other ones might really impact that political scene one.
Speaker 1: But I'll say politicians was the first thing that came to my mind. I would wave my magic wand in that direction to,
Speaker 1: to help those conversations and make that a world that everyone could feel really, really good about. Wouldn't that be nice? Oh my gosh. I mean, could you just imagine how much would get done?
Speaker 1: We often talk in our business seminars about how cultures of civility and respect how really good working environments result in better outcomes. And I can't imagine if our
Speaker 1: government was a model of consideration respect. It's almost a joke when you say it. But there are some really amazing actors who are doing this and wouldn't even need the etiquette wand, you know what I mean? So I should, I shouldn't laugh,
Speaker 1: but to move us on dan, what's your, what's your second one? What's the second thing that you would wave your wand and fix or change?
Speaker 1: So this is the riskiest thing on my list for sure. I just said the, on the, on going back to like episode one, right, yawning and the pinky title of episode one, yawning. To me, it's such a classic etiquette trap because it clearly illustrates the difference between how something might be perceived and how it's
Speaker 1: felt or intended by the person doing it. And if I could resolve that in a way that just made
Speaker 1: the world a smoother better place for everyone, I would do that in a heartbeat by the way. That was some genuine excitement coming from upstairs, some of our first guests in a long time, just around. Oh, that's awesome, that's really awesome. I'm jealous. So the yawn is one of those things that I wouldn't make yawning go away way magic. So glad to know etiquette want and I would remove all confusion about it. I would have people who see it happen and think this person is really being um disengaged and boring themselves and I would remove that thought and I would um
Speaker 1: hopefully on the other side of the ledger give people who are just feeling tired the awareness of how it might be perceived if they indulge in that yawn in the company of others. Well what would giving him the awareness do if they, you know what I mean? Wouldn't you want to fix it beyond just giving them the awareness? Because
Speaker 1: because it's an involuntary action, like that's the thing of it. Are you going to like what are we gonna, come on? Are we gonna rehash this out for the third time?
Speaker 1: It's an involuntary action and they are contagious. So would you why not just get rid of you wanting altogether?
Speaker 1: So this is why I would give the awareness because for those of us that can regulate our bodily functions, it would allow us to regulate it. For those of us who can't, it would allow us to excuse ourselves? I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Are you trying to claim that you can regulate every on that comes your way? I think it's doable. I don't I totally disagree. I think you can make attempts at stifling it,
Speaker 1: but I don't think that you can actually hold off that muscle contraction that starts to happen in your throat or or around like that, you know, it's I feel like it's it all happens in the muscles near the eyes, the ears and the throat.
Speaker 1: Like when you when you go for that, because I've had to stifle a yawn before. I know that that's the polite thing to do if if one comes on and someone is in the middle of talking and you do want to be, you know, showing that you're paying attention and such. But I don't know if that's a choice that you can really make
Speaker 1: and this is why I need an etiquette magic. All right, what's your number two?
Speaker 1: So, my number two as I alluded to kind of like has to it would certainly help that whole political realm. But that's I would I would wave a magic one that lets us be heard as as we're intending to be heard or received as we're intending to be received
Speaker 1: or vice versa. You know, like the flip side of that. I really I'll put it this way, I am always amazed that even when I think I know someone really well like the person on the other side of this microphone,
Speaker 1: how I can still guess and get things wrong that you that you like you said or or that someone has a conversation that we're having or even just
Speaker 1: an assumption I might make about the way they're going to think or or react to something. I think that even when we are incredibly close with people, we are not mind readers and we aren't able to predict and we aren't able to truly feel how something landed with someone. And I would I would love to have my etiquette wand
Speaker 1: solve that problem so that more people could be
Speaker 1: meeting with their communications in a space that that feels true in both directions. Both when it's spoken or or if it's an action, it's acted and when it's received by the other parties around. I want that to all feel like it's co pathetic rather than like,
Speaker 1: you know, two people walk away and you're like, wait a second. I don't think we're walking away with the same impression of that conversation as we both had. You know,
Speaker 1: in some ways it's a version of my on wish
Speaker 1: that we could somehow harmonize the way that we're presenting with the way that we're being perceived, um, where there's a coherence. That makes sense.
Speaker 1: Okay, because, so what's your last one, final, final, final wand wave? What are you going to use it on reclining seats on airplanes? Oh, I think a lot of people just said thank you.
Speaker 1: Um, okay. So what here's the deal? Would you make the seats still recline but make the airplanes bigger with more space or would you make the seats not be able to recline? Because I know my answer.
Speaker 1: I like your first version of do I like my version had the buttons turning on and off at the moment that I thought were appropriate for it to be allowed or not. But I'll take your version. I like my version because then it doesn't matter. But it's like if you have enough space between all the seats and
Speaker 1: can we add to that that we're gonna, we're gonna make that all happen without raising the cost of the ticket. Like I want, I want space back in airplanes. I'm not sure there ever really was much, but I want whatever little amount was there back.
Speaker 1: Your wish is granted. Okay, so can I tease you now because we've been through your three and I am am gobsmacked favorite word to see what is not on your list. Can I, can I, can I expose you know just what we were talking about before. Can I expose you? I am floored that you don't have something about bodily functions in the bathroom being like eliminated as a presence in our world or that everyone gets their own private bathroom that they have immediate access to at all points and it has
Speaker 1: fans and it's soundproof in it like
Speaker 1: sunlit, you know, pristine listening marble. There is no plume, there is no like excuse me for a minute. I totally thought that that with all the like you guys got to understand dan cringes any time we have to talk about like passing gas or bathroom and shoes
Speaker 1: and you know it's probably not on my list because I don't think of it as within the year so far removed. It's true. I'm feeling a little comfortable at this very moment. Let's talk about your last thing. So I listed it as rejection happiness.
Speaker 1: And I really would love to wave a Magic one that got rid of this
Speaker 1: fear of rejection that so many of us have, um whether that's reaching out to friends to ask them to do stuff, reaching out to a potential date, I would, I would just love to find a way for us to navigate those spaces of making requests and getting turned down
Speaker 1: without it feeling so heavy. In fact, for some people, it often can be so heavy they don't make the ask. And I just, I would love to alleviate that kind of anxiety in our world and embrace no, in a way that feels good, embrace
Speaker 1: the idea that I can't this time, but maybe next time you know, just I would love for rejection to be something that doesn't have to
Speaker 1: to carry. So much anxious wait with it.
Speaker 1: I think that is a great place to leave this particular post script. And if I were to choose from all six and I got one wish to actually granted a rejection. Happiness wish. There you go,
Speaker 1: dan. This is a really, really, really fun postscript. I hope that our listeners right in with some of the things they do with an etiquette magic wand and I hope you you clever beasts that you come up with more post scripts like this. Well, I like you. I would be really, really interested to hear what our audience would fix if they have the power
Speaker 1: and you are most welcome and we will do more in the future. I love it.
Speaker 1: We like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world and that can come in so many forms. And today we have a salute from MEREDITH. Hi lizzie and dan. I love the show and just wanted to send out a quick salute to my son's teacher.
Speaker 1: The pandemic has been tough on everyone and I think especially so for those with young Children, their kids and those who teach their kids,
Speaker 1: my son's teacher has really gone above and beyond to make sure her students aren't losing out during a time of remote learning. I know there are so many others out there, just like her too. So here's to the educators.
Speaker 1: Thanks MEREDITH. I love that one day to the teachers,
Speaker 1: MEREDITH. It is so true. I know my little girls have treasured and leaned on their remote learning experiences and like you, I am so, so, so grateful for all of those educators out there making this possible. Thanks for the salute
Speaker 1: and thank you for listening. Thank you to everyone who sent us something and who supports us on Patreon. Please do connect with us and share the show with friends, family and coworkers on social media or however you like to share podcasts, you can send us questions feedback and salutes by email to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com by phone. You can leave us a message or a text at 802858 K I N D. That's 8028585463 on twitter. We are at Emily Post inst on instagram, we are at Emily Post Institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette and the Emily Post Institute, Please consider becoming a sustaining member. You can find out more about this by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette.
Speaker 1: You can also subscribe to the ads version of our show on Spotify or your favorite podcast app and please consider leaving us a review. Our show is edited by Chris Albertine, the system produced by Brigitte, Dowd, Thanks Kris and Brigitte.