Episode 346 - Affordable Flowers

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Speaker 1: maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social goodness. See that's old fashioned,

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Speaker 1: watch how busy post and then post to act as host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person, real friendliness.

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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to awesome etiquette

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Speaker 2: where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty.

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Speaker 1: On today's show, we take your questions on affordable flowers for a wedding, addressing concerns you have before going on a zoom date, how to determine who sits at the head of the table and roommates inviting people over during the pandemic.

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Speaker 2: For us. Some etiquette sustaining members. Our question of the week is about people who say they didn't receive information you sent when you know they actually

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Speaker 1: did.

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Speaker 1: Plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a post script from Emily in the 1922 edition of etiquette on dangers to be avoided in conversation. All

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Speaker 2: that's coming up.

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Speaker 2: Mhm

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Speaker 2: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute. I'm lizzie Post

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Speaker 1: and I'm dan post sending hey

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Speaker 2: because

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Speaker 1: lizzie post, how is it going?

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Speaker 2: Oh it's a, it's a going, I actually got, I'm just going to dive right into it, I got to participate in something really cool and

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Speaker 2: you and I have done sort of the homemade version of this but this is a service that does it and it's called a video hug, a vid hug and my friend Wendy who listens to this show

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Speaker 1: Wendy Wendy,

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Speaker 2: she set up, one of our mutual friends, grandmother died and the grandmothers overseas and it's just been really hard. The friend had had kind of moved away this year for the first time in a long time so she doesn't have like her people around her, you know

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Speaker 2: to kind of help help her through this and of course it's been the pandemic. So it's been lonely and hard and Wendy found this thing called Vid hug and what it is is she collected like all of the friend email addresses

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Speaker 2: and sent us a link to this video hug thing. And what you do is you record like a short little video for the person they make it super easy to do

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Speaker 2: and you can say anything you want in it. But they do give some pointers for what makes for a good supportive video hug and length and that kind of stuff and then it automatically stitches each of the videos together and sends it to the person they're meant for.

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Speaker 2: And it was so,

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Speaker 1: so nice.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no it was really cool. Like we had done something similar for our grandfather one year when we couldn't spend christmas with him

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Speaker 2: and it was you know it was fun and it was, it was cool and everything but this is cooler because it's a service that does it for you and you don't have to edit it or anything and you don't necessarily see the other people's videos. Um well you can watch the whole thing, I think there is a link so that you can watch the whole thing but

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Speaker 2: it was so cool and our friend

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Speaker 2: who was sad, she emailed everybody back and and was able to say thank you so much and this felt so great but I thought it was the coolest thing, I was really grateful to Wendy for coordinating it and, and including me and you guys got to check it out, this is not sponsored or anything, but it was really cool.

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Speaker 1: It worked,

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Speaker 2: it works dan, it worked.

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Speaker 1: Technology brought people together, made everyone maybe feel a little better, A little more connected.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. And okay, now let's bring it back to the etiquette, right? It did not stop people from also sending

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Speaker 2: our pal like uh you know flowers or a care package or little notes or emails, text any of that. All good ways to send a friend condolences. You know, I would say don't just leave it at a text message, but just the way we communicate, it is not unheard of

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Speaker 2: to find these things out in this way, you know through the grapevine and such. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't negate any of those, but it was a nice addition to them.

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Speaker 1: And I can imagine that participating in something like that might even serve as a little bit of a trigger reminder for some of those other um I don't want to call them etiquette but things that you could

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Speaker 2: heretic, it's no, totally, it did. It definitely does. It serves as kind of like one more thing, but it,

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Speaker 2: I don't know, it can, I think it could make you feel like you checked the box if that's kind of where your head is that with it or it could make you feel like you want to do more, you could do more in other ways. Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: Or I broke the seal. I'm in this. Yes. It would be relatively easy to follow up with a

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Speaker 2: little exactly. Know exactly exactly.

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Speaker 1: The other thing that it instantly brings to mind for me is that I happen to record

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Speaker 1: my little section for that video with your father in Dubai, we were

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Speaker 2: forgot about

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Speaker 1: that doing a seminar. There are so training there or something and it was kind of fun because it was right over the holidays and we had gone to one of these enormous malls that are world famous and it was all decked out in the christmas holiday regalia.

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Speaker 1: So we did our video in front of this enormous christmas tree,

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Speaker 2: it

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Speaker 1: was nice, it was nice to think of poppy. It worked for me then.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, very cool indeed. You know what else is really cool cousin

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Speaker 1: listener question, you got

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Speaker 2: it, let's get to some questions,

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Speaker 1: let's do it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah,

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Speaker 1: awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions, you can email them to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 8 to 858 kind, that's 8028585463 You can also reach us on social media on twitter, We are at Emily post inst on instagram, we are at Emily Post Institute

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Speaker 1: and on facebook we are awesome etiquette. Just remember use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your posts so that we know you want your question on the show.

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Speaker 2: Our first question is titled floral faux pas.

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Speaker 1: Hello. A friend recommended this podcast to me several months ago for wedding advice. Thank you friend. I have listened every week since and have learned so much. I'm getting married in Vermont this july, I have a question about flowers. I

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Speaker 2: know welcome and it's signed wilted and chicken so that's like our county

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Speaker 2: like neighbor. Hello. Okay dan, sorry I had to get excited about that. Please

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Speaker 1: continue. We are using an awesome florist for the bouquets arbor peace and the flowers at the reception. Unfortunately I don't have room in my budget for flowers going down the aisle. I want to have six mason jars with wildflowers placed on the benches.

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Speaker 1: I could do this for an affordable cost myself using flowers from the grocery store.

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Speaker 1: But I am worried it will be rude to bring grocery store flowers to the wedding when I have a great florist already.

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Speaker 1: Is it rude to do this

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Speaker 1: if you think it's acceptable, how can I tell the florist I am doing this without being rude. She's a very nice woman and is going to be doing a lot of work for us on our wedding day. I don't want to offend her.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Wilted in Chittenden.

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Speaker 2: Oh wilted. It's too early in spring to be wilted.

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Speaker 1: Let's be Well,

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Speaker 2: I know, I feel like I'm like, I'm like let's make wilted a johnny jump up like you know like something Berkey in the flower world um wilted incheon. And I do think that this is a smart thing to be thinking of, right. Just the same way you wouldn't just bring your own barbecue when you hired a caterer or you know,

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Speaker 2: you might not provide extra desserts of your own making when you've got a baker. I think it's smart to think about the same when it comes to your florist and

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Speaker 2: the first thing I would probably do is check my contract just to see if it mentions anything in that and they're already about this.

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Speaker 2: But without that dan my my brain really goes to two places and before I launch off on an answer, do you have any thoughts on this one? Okay.

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Speaker 1: I was really curious to hear how you would handle this. You have so much more experience with vendors and the vendor relationship than I do. But my big picture thought was I think you can do it

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Speaker 1: and I think I'd mentioned it but try not to make too big a deal out of it. And I'm thinking about a lot of scenarios where

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Speaker 1: you mentioned like a caterer, you might say to a caterer, there's a particular dessert that I make that I really love, or for whatever reason, there's some specialty item that's something you and your family produce, and if I'm a caterer and I come and you're just doing something, I might be like, that's a little weird, and at the same time, if you had said to me, we do this special family thing and I'm really looking forward to doing it and I,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to place it in the meal here, this is how it's going to fit your to me, that's a whole different thing and I think that you approach it like that, like this is something I want to do I like, but I also wasn't sure, I I didn't know if that would be stepping on toes. I felt a little like wilted as I was thinking of my answer, so I was curious what you would say

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Speaker 2: great, we got to wilted

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Speaker 1: flowers now.

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Speaker 2: Uh Well my my thoughts are, it's funny, I like I I understand it from the perspective of I have something really special that we do that I want to do that would be you know, within your bailiwick, but I'm not, you know, I want to do it my own way, right, and that makes a lot of sense. But here

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Speaker 2: we're just talking about grocery store flowers and the simplicity of that. And so

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Speaker 2: my inner I'm just gonna say it bs er was going okay, so come up with a reason that the florist can't, and as soon as my brain goes, come up with a reason I've learned over the years, so much better to divert right to the truth. So I think that what wilted and chicken could do would be to ask first if

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Speaker 2: the florist can accommodate the thing that you're looking for. Hey,

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Speaker 2: I really had this vision of some wildflowers on the benches, you know, along the aisles as we're going down just to dress them up. Uh it wasn't something we had talked about and I know we've sort of maxed out the budget. Is there any way to make something like that happen?

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Speaker 2: And they might suggest making a few adjustments to your floral plan that might let it accommodate it. They might also say no.

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Speaker 2: Um I'm sorry. It's really not. And if you get that, know that I can't accommodate it within your budget, then you can say in that case, do you mind if I bring some of my own to do that with

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Speaker 2: And that might be a way that you can you know broach the subject come up with that solution once you've received the no from the florist that it's not possible to fit within your budget

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Speaker 2: and then they know and you like I was sitting here making up things like like oh oh forget the grocery store, you could grow them at home and then you're growing the love for the marriage right? Like labor of love addition to the ceremony kind of a thing, right? The inner Bs or

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Speaker 2: and that could take it into the special thing territory.

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Speaker 2: Again you don't have to let that inner Bs or move you in that direction. But I do think that because your wedding's in july you still have time even if you started some like seeds under a little vegetation light at home or something to get them going a bit faster,

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Speaker 2: you could totally grow these flowers that you're talking about and that might be even cheaper than having to buy them at the grocery store.

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Speaker 2: And then you can make that labor of love thing true.

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Speaker 1: It's tough because there's no guarantee that someone is not going to take offense that someone who thinks of themselves as an artist and they've really

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Speaker 1: put a lot of work into creating an aesthetic and idea, feel a quality product for you.

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Speaker 1: And they might not like the idea of you doing something else as a part of the floral

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Speaker 1: arrangement for the wedding. And

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Speaker 1: I also don't think it's an unreasonable ask or thing for you to suggest. This is one of those events where

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Speaker 1: you're at the center of it and you get to make some decisions. And

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Speaker 1: I think that you are responsible for being careful about how you talk to someone and careful with their feelings and thoughts. And I think that ultimately you get to make some choices about your event. And if you decided that

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Speaker 1: you wanted a

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Speaker 1: flores to do everything except the bouquet that you're going to carry, and that's what you want to do,

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Speaker 1: that's okay.

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Speaker 1: And you do want to talk to her about it and let her know so that they have the best chance to respond well and maybe not be bothered or offended by it. But if that does happen, I also I don't want you to take that on necessarily if you've done the work to take care with how you make that ask, and

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Speaker 1: like lizzie says, if it's not part of the contract, that you can't do something like this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And the other thing is that I do still think it's so much better to ask than just do. I love that dan's very first piece of advice was I think I'd mention it, I think I'd want to bring up that conversation rather than just show up, you know, and have it be a surprise to someone and

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Speaker 2: vendors are used to being asked questions. It is okay. I mean, we we learned this. I remember when I was writing the 20th edition and talking with the funeral director slash and End of Life specialist, she was saying, ask any questions because you just don't know what's possible.

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Speaker 2: They, you know, you just you never know what's possible that someone could work around and make something work for you. So asking, asking politely,

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Speaker 2: being willing to accept and no, and move forward

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Speaker 2: all key things to making this a very simple, very reasonable, not anxiety inducing. Moment

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Speaker 1: before we go, I have to say one more thing, which is that My very 1st 1st thought, when I read this question was Emily loved a country wedding. She

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Speaker 2: did, she did.

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Speaker 1: And my brother

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Speaker 1: and his now wife had mason jars hung in trees with flowers, wildflowers that they'd picked all over the wedding site. And it was absolutely lovely

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Speaker 2: if

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Speaker 1: I do say so myself,

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Speaker 2: it was, it was great. It was a great wedding, wilted and shit. And thank you so much for the question, Congratulations on the upcoming wedding and send us pictures. We want to see how these gorgeous flowers turn out

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Speaker 1: flowers

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Speaker 1: and won't expect flowers, will she?

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking these to marry because it's a special occasion.

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Speaker 1: Of course, if you want to take flowers anyway, I guess there's no law against it, but I don't have to unless it's a ritzy affair.

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Speaker 1: Our next question asked her wonders, is it a date

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Speaker 1: or something else?

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Speaker 2: Hello, dan and lizzie, firstly I would like to thank you for your un ironically awesome podcast. It has helped to guide me through many strange and sometimes intense situations over the years with class and compassion. My question is about modern romance and dating in the Covid 19 era and I would be interested to hear your insight about a situation. I find my often

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Speaker 2: And I would be interested to hear your insight about a situation I often find myself in as a 23 year old man. I find it difficult to meet people who aren't looking for hookups. I have no qualms with people hooking up, but I find that I get personally invested in people quickly, which always leads to me getting hurt in the process.

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Speaker 2: But that's beside the point.

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Speaker 2: Recently, I had a man message me on social media, he looked familiar and it turned out that we were mutual friends with someone I'm close with. He expressed to me that he was interested in getting to know me more and we agreed on a time for a zoom date.

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Speaker 2: Now this all sounds great, but I'm getting conflicting information from him through our virtual conversations in our text conversations. He uses furbish, the somewhat sexually suggestive,

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Speaker 2: I could detail those message but I'll spare you the details, essentially I'm getting hookup vibes from the guy who agreed to go out in quotes on a date in quotes zoom date. That is

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Speaker 2: this is a common situation I find myself in, where it's hard to tell if they want to get to know me because of a romantic interest or hook up interest. My gut wants to ask him directly before we even get to the date in quotes whether or not he is looking for a hookup. Conversely, I'm afraid saying something like that might scare him off or be off putting,

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Speaker 2: but I also don't want to waste my time going on dates in quotes and getting to know someone who isn't interested in a substantive romantic relationship.

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Speaker 2: My question for both dan and lizzie is this, should I address my concern directly or go on dates and get to know this guy and let it play out. I would love to hear your insight All the best l

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Speaker 2: well I could have written that question because

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Speaker 1: read your question and I instantly thought about lizzie Post gave me some of the best dating advice I ever received through a book that she wrote when she was just out of college.

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Speaker 2: Better at it back

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Speaker 1: then. I

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Speaker 1: it was, it was one of those aha moments that I would hope that people might have in an etiquette class I teach at some point um where you say to yourself that is really good advice, I'm going to use that and it's going to be useful and make me better at what I do. What

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Speaker 2: was the advice with all

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Speaker 1: of this build up?

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Speaker 1: You will remember when I say it's about the

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Speaker 2: good ask

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Speaker 1: and it was about people asking people on dates but being scared to put out what they were really interested in or looking for. And it wasn't exactly what this guy

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Speaker 1: question is addressing, but it taught me a lot about the clarity of that ask and what you said lizzie was that

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Speaker 1: you advise people to have the courage to ask someone out on a date to not say, hey, let's get together or would you be the ask? That is essentially the asking. If you'd like to do something but not actually asking you to do the thing,

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Speaker 2: hey, you want to do something sometime?

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Speaker 2: Uh Yes,

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Speaker 1: very important.

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Speaker 2: I would like to do something sometime. What else is coming after this? To ask matters,

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Speaker 1: would you like to have dinner with me on Tuesday night is

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Speaker 1: something that someone can say yes or no to as opposed to? Would you like to get dinner with me sometime or

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Speaker 1: would you be interested in having their? Yeah, I'd be interested in that. And now we're no, I still have to ask

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Speaker 1: at some point. You've got to make the ask and

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Speaker 1: you got me to that point quicker.

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Speaker 2: Make a clear direct ask.

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Speaker 1: And there's a version of that advice that I would think might be useful for L.

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Speaker 2: So what is that version?

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Speaker 1: I think that L. Could and I know this is a little risky.

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Speaker 1: Put out there something along the lines that he's putting out here that he's looking for a relationship. Looking for something that goes beyond just a date and chemistry on a date. And I think that language can be your language, it can be whatever

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Speaker 1: however you want to describe that relationship that you're looking for. But I think

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Speaker 1: looking for a relationship implies that you're looking for something that goes beyond just that night. And that's a good way to give someone an indication that you're looking for some accountability and some growth in terms of your connection with a romantic partner.

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Speaker 2: I think what's really hard about what I read in this question, what I experienced personally is um

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Speaker 2: when it comes to dating comfort levels and expectations vary so greatly.

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Speaker 2: And how we present to the other person that we are interested can vary so much. Some people don't want to show anything until they're feeling the things in person that they need to feel. Other people start testing the flirty waters right away

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Speaker 2: uh to see if that chemistry is there, to see if they get a little, a little nibble, you know, a little, a little someone takes a bite.

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Speaker 2: Um and it's so hard because here for me, what I hear in this question is that the line of he expressed to me that he was interested in getting to know me more and we agreed on a time for a zoom date

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Speaker 2: two. It sounds like what then happened was that the date guy, you know, the other guy, not our question Askar.

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Speaker 2: His idea of letting our question at letting l know I'm interested was, hey, I am interested, I want to get to know you better and for him it seems like that means immediately trying to test out those flirty waters, those sexually suggestive waters and if that's just not what makes you feel comfortable, I think setting that up and letting someone know, hey, I am really glad that you're interested for me. I tend to take things slower in terms of, you know, flirting or sexual suggestion as I'm getting to know someone I'm really looking for, you know, a lasting relationship when I go out on quote unquote dates, you know, or looking to explore if there's potential for a lasting relationship. So I suppose you are good at that for all my singledom and my lack of dating life entirely. I do think it's really hard because

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Speaker 2: how are you supposed to let someone know I'm interested? I'm sexually attracted to you. I I like the idea of us crossing into that territory in life. Like it's a hard question. It's it's hard to make people feel comfortable. I think it's hard to be yourself, your expressive self, your flirty sexual self

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Speaker 2: and make that all work with all the other emotions going on. And the only thing I have ever come to is that

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Speaker 2: telling someone

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Speaker 2: what you are looking for exactly what dan suggested is the best way to do it from the get go. Whether that's in the ask that you make of a date. And it sounds like l was the person being asked on the quote unquote date? So a little harder. But even when you respond to that date and say, I would love to get to know you on zoom.

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Speaker 2: I've done a couple of these before, Let me tell you what I'm looking for. If that sounds good to you, let's meet up on the quote unquote date. You know,

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Speaker 2: if the other person says yes and is still making you feel uncomfortable with the things they're saying or the pace that they are moving and exploring at then I think you can trust that gut and speak up and say, I gotta be honest. This is feeling a little strong for me. I'm I'm really more of a let's be friends until it's really clear. We should be more

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Speaker 2: and that's so hard because the other person is trying to figure out what their moves whether or not that's there or not, they're just not doing it in a way that resonates with you. It's so hard. It's so hard. I know but now they know and what I think is the biggest tell is how they react to knowing

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Speaker 2: oh well I was just trying to do this. I mean how else do you get to know? Are they angry at you for standing up for yourself or are they like,

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, thank you so much for letting me know. It's so hard to tell. And I just I am excited to date people or boy, thanks for telling me. I am really just looking for hookups. I'm not looking for a long term partnership right now. So maybe best if we seek other people

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Speaker 1: lizzie post, I think that is really sound advice. The one other thing that I think

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Speaker 1: is worth mentioning and it's it's practical advice. It's not etiquette advice sometimes that sorting starts to happen before the ask and um true, when the pandemic started, we heard a lot about the

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Speaker 1: amount of dating that moved online. One of the things that really happened over this pandemic is

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Speaker 1: online dating went from being the majority to being the vast majority of how people meet and

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Speaker 1: being choosy about which platforms you use to meet people is one way to start to

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Speaker 1: group yourself with people that might be looking for the same kinds of things, and I know they're just so, so many options in that world out there, but maybe spending a little bit of time investigating, that would be a useful place where you've got a little bit of an idea of where you're jumping off from. And I think of it akin to picking the the the night spot in town that you like to go to the most in person. And

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Speaker 1: that would be the way I would approach choosing sort of virtual dating site today. And I recognize this happened on social media in many ways it's the digital version potentially of that organic friends meeting in the social space place. It might not be a dating site or platform, but if it isn't that those might be other options to kind of pre screen, that pool of people.

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Speaker 2: Well, we hope that our answer helps both with this state and dates in the future.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that's what a boy like,

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Speaker 1: he wants to know, he's appreciated

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Speaker 1: and would be fun on a date, but I don't think I'll know what to say

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Speaker 1: what to talk about.

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Speaker 1: Don't worry about that. Just be your natural topical itself. Come on, let's do it for something.

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Speaker 1: Our next question is titled Host at the Head, Dear lizzie and Daniel. How does one determine the head of the table in your hosts home

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Speaker 1: Years ago, when we were all single in our 20's, a friend hosted a dinner in his small apartment. There were four of us, and the dining table was a small rectangle that sat for it was adjacent to the kitchen and also bordered the living room.

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Speaker 1: As other guests selected their seats, I took the remaining seat on the narrow end which bordered the living room so that I would face the wall and presumably the host.

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Speaker 1: I saw this as deferring to the host.

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Speaker 1: Another guest slash friend chided me for sitting at the head of the table. I was embarrassed first because to me it felt like we were naturally selecting the seat closest to where we were standing.

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Speaker 1: Second, I had an internal assumption that the host would sit with his back to the wall so he could observe the whole space.

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Speaker 1: How could I know what our host considered his seat in hindsight? I should have asked where would you like me to sit, but it didn't even occur to me as options were so limited.

00:25:55

Speaker 1: Now, another 20 years later, I still am unsure, even as my husband and I have determined the head of the table. In our own homes, we've moved a couple times in our marriage in our home. I, as hostess tend to select the seat next to my husband, but facing the kitchen so I can keep an eye out for burners still on or other Hostessing hazards.

00:26:15

Speaker 1: And my back is to a patio door,

00:26:17

Speaker 1: allowing our guests to enjoy the view. My husband is to my right on the short end of the table with a view of the whole upstairs entertaining space.

00:26:25

Speaker 1: Is there a method to determine the head of the table?

00:26:28

Speaker 1: Or is it a choice each household makes

00:26:31

Speaker 1: in the absence of captain's chairs with arms, How is it signaled to guests? Should I be across the length of the table from my husband rather than beside him out? Be it on another side of the table.

00:26:43

Speaker 1: It occurs to me now that the other guests in the scenario from my youth were all in the military and had likely gone through training on entertainment scenarios so as to avoid wrong moves, I look forward to your take on this and advice for how to behave selecting a seat sincerely shamed sitter

00:27:00

Speaker 2: shamed sitter. No,

00:27:03

Speaker 2: I mean you like were but don't take it on. Like

00:27:06

Speaker 2: I think it's amazing how that memory sticks right? Like those moments were like horrified because someone else decided to judge us. Um I would say that just for the for the past situation will deal with the past and then we'll jump to the present.

00:27:20

Speaker 2: I can see logically for a four person dinner at a table, you mentioned it was rectangle. So in my head I was actually picturing a square where it would be even harder to tell because there's no

00:27:31

Speaker 2: shorter end. That might look like the traditional head of the table. But you are absolutely right that in hindsight what you would do is ask. I think it makes a lot of sense that for what I'm assuming was a casual friends dinner with just four people that just picking the seat that you were standing, the closest to shouldn't have been problematic.

00:27:51

Speaker 2: I like how are shamed sitter talks about in the future at her home. She sits facing out into the room so that with her back to the patio door so that guests can enjoy the view. That is actually one of the things that we suggest to consider when you're seating people at a table and I know we just did a big post script on it,

00:28:12

Speaker 2: but the idea is where's the good view? And often that's out to a window or if you're out on the patio, it's out over, over the landscape, over the view

00:28:23

Speaker 2: if you're in a room, the good view often looks out into the room rather than to, you know, against a wall or something like that. Um so often often the host is the one facing the wall, whereas the guests are the one facing the room,

00:28:38

Speaker 1: another, yeah, there's so many things to times comes into play. There is just, is there a seat that's annoying

00:28:44

Speaker 2: at

00:28:46

Speaker 1: our kitchen table, There's a big window and our table has a bench between the table and the window and then chairs around the other side. So that bench table actually very similar to mud and poppies table totally um requires if you're going to be in the middle of the bench seat a little bit of scooch ng.

00:29:06

Speaker 2: So that was the annoying would

00:29:08

Speaker 1: put just parents in for example.

00:29:11

Speaker 2: No, no and by putting them on the other side you would give them the view out the window to, so it's a double plus, right

00:29:17

Speaker 1: easier to get in and out better view. But it's also that consideration sometimes about just, is it practical? Is it easy to come and go for a guest or is

00:29:26

Speaker 1: chair wobble earlier anyway, a number of things.

00:29:29

Speaker 2: Another good consideration. Um In terms of determining the head of the table. Traditionally on a rectangular table, the heads are the shorter ends

00:29:38

Speaker 2: at a round table. It's totally up to you where you determine that head of table is, I would probably in my own home if I had a roundtable base it on that.

00:29:47

Speaker 2: Where's the good view for the guests? Where's the annoying seat? And I as the host will take that that kind of a thing for a little square table, just like the round table. It's kind of like you have to you have to look to the host. I'm also just gonna put out here dan. This is such a great cause for

00:30:06

Speaker 2: and we sell them and lots of wonderful other people like Mr. P's Blaze Guard seldom place cards exactly. Place cards are, you know, even for a casual affair you don't have to get a fancy place card. You can just have a little a little white fold over, a little colored fold over

00:30:23

Speaker 2: that you write someone's name on in a very, you know, casual handwriting. As long as it's legible, it doesn't have to be beautiful script, it doesn't have to be printed on there. But this is such a great cause for it because it does, it helps guests figure things out, they know what to do, they know it's expected

00:30:37

Speaker 2: and they can feel confident knowing that they're doing, which is what I'm gathering from all of this, whether it's the guest that was

00:30:44

Speaker 2: judging our listener, whether it's listener, they can feel confident knowing they are doing what their host would like in the host's home. And that's I like the fact that there's a little that host guest dance going on in the in the sentiment of this question.

00:30:59

Speaker 1: I do too. There's a parallel situation in my life that I was thinking about when I was visiting Allyn and Peggy Post steward of this tradition for many years. They have a little breakfast table and there's a certain seat at the breakfast table that my uncle Allen sits at and reads his newspaper.

00:31:14

Speaker 1: So when you come downstairs for breakfast, Peggy just lets you know that's Allen's morning chair and it happens to be where the newspaper gets laid out on the table and he's most comfortable sitting in the morning and

00:31:27

Speaker 1: her letting there be no way for me to know that unless the host mentioned it to me and this isn't a sit down dinner.

00:31:33

Speaker 1: So in some ways if,

00:31:35

Speaker 1: if I as a guest end up in that chair, it's really up to the hosts in some ways to let me know and you can do that with the things that develop in your house like that, you do have a lot of autonomy in your home

00:31:47

Speaker 1: and um if there is a certain groove that develops or pattern that develops, just letting your guests know that so everyone's comfortable is a completely reasonable thing to do, particularly with more informal casual gatherings.

00:32:00

Speaker 2: And in no way does this contradict anything dan just said.

00:32:04

Speaker 2: But you could also, as the host choose to not worry about it at all, someone sits right, like if someone sits at the,

00:32:10

Speaker 2: like, if you're,

00:32:11

Speaker 1: particularly if you didn't say anymore

00:32:13

Speaker 2: and like if pooches parents for instance, sat along the bench, I could totally see dan saying if you too would like to not be on the bench, please feel free to, to move your places to the other side. If not, you know, we're happy to have you sit there.

00:32:26

Speaker 2: You know, I could see things like that. There's a lot among friends, among family

00:32:31

Speaker 2: in these semi casual casual situations, it's just so easy to have the light conversation about it, you know?

00:32:38

Speaker 2: So the final thing that we should touch upon is the idea that our question Askar sits to her husband's right on the short end of the table so that I'm guessing the two of them are kind of cornered and then guests fill in the rest of the seats. For me when you're at home, when you're with

00:32:57

Speaker 2: family, when it's more casual dining, totally, totally fine. We talked about that in the seating chart that for like a casual dinner party, you might even have couples sit wherever they want. Some together, some apart, things like that.

00:33:09

Speaker 2: But when it's more formal, I tend to think it's really nice to separate out the hosts of it and go for those long ends of the table because then you've got one of your set of hosts kind of manning or like being there for the guests that they're around, they can play that role.

00:33:28

Speaker 2: And I just find that when you're when you're a couple and you're hosting and you're seated in those corners together and it's a more formal situation.

00:33:36

Speaker 2: It feels a little bit less like your I don't know, almost like a little less like you have your arms all around the group, you know, I don't know why I'm picturing the table is a hug, but I am and it's like I think it kind of, it helps to wait that host guest balance a little differently

00:33:56

Speaker 2: as opposed to having in the corner. But I also see your practical reasons for keeping an eye on things in the kitchen at my parents house

00:34:02

Speaker 2: Tricia Post always sits at the head of the table closest to the kitchen because I guarantee of the two of them, she is definitely monitoring anything that might be going on in the kitchen and my dad sits at the head of the table that actually is closer to the living room and he can kind of see stuff in the kitchen if he needs to, but then he goes and he can help her

00:34:20

Speaker 2: as they prepare the next course or something like that. Or one of us kids will offer to help or something like that.

00:34:25

Speaker 1: I think it's because the sequel recently came out, but I have the scene from the first coming to America in my mind when Eddie Murphy is having dinner with his parents and that there

00:34:36

Speaker 1: opposite ends of this incredibly long table so long, they have to use a microphone to talk to each other, it's

00:34:41

Speaker 2: not what we're going for, no, and

00:34:45

Speaker 1: it illustrates the absurdity of an overly formal conversation between just close family who are dining together. It's,

00:34:53

Speaker 1: it's really funny

00:34:56

Speaker 1: and at the same time as we get into the more formal situation where it's not the joke, but oftentimes the guest of honor is on your hosts right, or is on the right hand of the head of the table. And that again, sort as you start to escalate and climb that ladder of formality, That option starts to be less and less available to you.

00:35:15

Speaker 2: Oh, because you finally did it. I know you've been wanting to talk about coming to America and some of the scenes

00:35:22

Speaker 2: for a while now and so it was fun to see you slip it in shame sitter. We really hope that our answer helps and gives you variety for ways to be an awesome host and communicate to your guests.

00:35:37

Speaker 1: Good manners, make people happy

00:35:40

Speaker 1: and a good table manners. Make eating together a happy time.

00:35:46

Speaker 1: Yeah,

00:35:51

Speaker 1: Our next question is about visitors during Covid.

00:35:54

Speaker 1: Hi lizzie and dan. My roommate asked if he could have a friend over because the friend lives alone and was feeling depressed from the isolation I feel for this friend, but I don't know him or where he's been and wanted to say no to maintain the health and safety of our home.

00:36:09

Speaker 1: I caved but it made me feel uncomfortable in the safe haven where I now live and work almost 24 7 and re sanitized everything once our guests left

00:36:19

Speaker 1: afterwards. I thought my roommate and I should talk through our house rules and what we're both comfortable with.

00:36:24

Speaker 1: He thinks I'm overreacting, vouched for his friend and argued that the visit was good for their mental health.

00:36:31

Speaker 1: I think he's missing the point of the statewide mandate about the gravity of the pandemic, but I can't force him to comply and don't know what to do about our shared space.

00:36:40

Speaker 1: I appreciate your thoughts or one of your famous sample scripts. Thanks in advance, sincerely trapped.

00:36:48

Speaker 2: Oh dan, this is so hard, yikes. I know, I know this is, it's again we're dealing with this idea of like different expectations,

00:36:59

Speaker 2: People's reactions to people telling them. I don't think what we ended up doing was safe.

00:37:04

Speaker 2: Things like that have been very, very tense, very touchy, very emotional moments and points and triggers for people right now. And I do think that a conversation is really important. Good on you for trying to say, hey, you know this happened, but I want to talk about it because it didn't make me feel comfortable and it sounds like it's one of those really

00:37:28

Speaker 2: unfortunate but good examples of when the other person doesn't receive your, hey, could we talk about this conversation well?

00:37:36

Speaker 2: And that's just tough. It's really, really tough. And like you say, you're in the house, you're working 24 7, you

00:37:43

Speaker 2: it's like you feel like you are completely justified in making requests and and talking to someone about comfort levels in the space you live and work in and at the same time, the reality is you just don't have control over other people.

00:37:56

Speaker 1: It is a tough situation. And before we get to sample scripts are breaking down the language there a couple of big picture thoughts that I would want to put on the table because I think they can sometimes help manage some of those emotions that you're talking about. Maybe

00:38:10

Speaker 1: help it feel like a less potentially fraught conversation, which it often turns into which these conversations can often turn into. I think that reminding yourself ahead of time. Um and even saying explicitly early on and as part of the conversation that you understand that people see these things differently,

00:38:29

Speaker 1: that people make different choices. That that's okay that people are coming from different places. So they might have the exact same information and feel differently about it. Or sometimes people are operating with vastly different sets of information and the ground that we're all standing on together is shifting and changing all the time. So it's really

00:38:50

Speaker 1: it's not just okay. It's to be expected that people are going to see things differently, feel differently about things, make different choices

00:38:57

Speaker 1: and that means that it's

00:38:59

Speaker 1: essential. It's part of the etiquette landscape that we're all living in, that we accept that that we understand that people are going to make slightly different choices so that when you have these conversations, it's not a comment about the choices that other people make. It's about

00:39:14

Speaker 1: exchanging important information as much as possible and to the extent that we're wanting to be informed by the choices that other people are making that we ask questions, but we asked them in a way that

00:39:26

Speaker 1: shows awareness that people have rights to privacy and their own choices.

00:39:30

Speaker 1: So

00:39:31

Speaker 1: that was one big picture. Thought I wanted to share that. It's not necessarily

00:39:36

Speaker 1: important that you reach accord with your roommate or that you come to agreement necessarily, but that there are ways that you can live together and find accommodation that don't require that of you

00:39:45

Speaker 2: because I'm I'm loving the idea. But this is like a safety issue, right? I mean like or it could be a safety issue. And how do you think that differs from just like

00:39:56

Speaker 2: we have different styles of doing the dishes like, you know what I mean? Because it's like, this feels like a bigger deal

00:40:02

Speaker 2: if someone's coming, like, I could imagine you and pooch would have a more serious conversation if like, one of the two of you

00:40:11

Speaker 2: invited someone over in a way that the other wasn't too happy about, you know, like, like, like bigger deal than just we view this differently, especially when the fear emotion is, you just put me at risk. You know, what, how do you handle that side of this? Because it's heavy.

00:40:27

Speaker 1: I think that you go back to that thing that you and I say all the time, which is really hard about safety superseding etiquette. When it comes to the social expectations

00:40:38

Speaker 1: you push through, you say, oh, this conversation is awkward.

00:40:43

Speaker 1: Well, I'm not going to just create the space for that awkward is to go away. I'm gonna keep having it. Um and that ultimately, you know what your bottom lines are

00:40:52

Speaker 1: and that's another kind of preparation thought. But you say to yourself, if I can't reach accord, what are my options? And

00:40:59

Speaker 1: it might be that you can't live with someone during a pandemic who sees things really differently than you,

00:41:05

Speaker 2: or it might be that you do exactly what you did, which is you let your roommate have the get together to feel that mental goodness. You maybe leave the apartment during that time and then you come back and clean it to your liking when they go and it's a

00:41:18

Speaker 2: pain in the neck. But maybe that's also a way of showing the roommate.

00:41:23

Speaker 2: Hey, I understand that you really need this. I'm willing to do these things to let that happen, even though it means a ton of extra cleaning and a little bit uncertainty on my part.

00:41:33

Speaker 2: But just acknowledging that even can, can sometimes help move, you know, moving it forward.

00:41:39

Speaker 1: I had some very similar thoughts in terms of the kinds of compromises that might emerge if the mental health is the question. Are there other ways you can satisfy that mental health? Can you take walks you meet at a gym that's masked unless you work out in the same time in place? Are there other options

00:41:55

Speaker 1: if there aren't, what can you do to remove yourself from that situation with the

00:42:00

Speaker 1: would the room may be willing to participate in that cleaning? So that didn't all fall on you? If they were the ones who were saying I want this benefit, would they be willing to take on some of that effort?

00:42:09

Speaker 2: Would you be willing to go to the friend who lives alone's house? So that you know what I mean? And I know that still means the houses are exchanging, you know what I mean? But I know in our state and I don't know what state trapped is in. But in our state, people who lived alone were granted the privilege of studying up with one house

00:42:26

Speaker 2: so that they didn't face this kind of pressure and and and and uh isolation. Excuse Yeah, mental stress. And and that meant for me, it meant agreeing and making sure that my partner house agreed

00:42:41

Speaker 2: to the same style of living together. And while you don't know what this person's practices have been,

00:42:48

Speaker 2: they are okay questions to be asking right now. So just another part of it trapped is that it is okay for you to ask about the stuff you don't know for me when I think about how I wish this could have gone from the start, I think about things like I wish you had been able to have the conversation with your

00:43:07

Speaker 2: roommate where you say

00:43:09

Speaker 2: here are the ways I would feel comfortable with you getting together with someone else, given that we live together and what we do impacts each other, right? So just that reminder, not that I'm trying to control you or or control my anxiety through you, but we live together and we impact each other and right now that's a safety concern from a health perspective. Let's discuss how we can

00:43:32

Speaker 2: meet both the mental health needs and the physical health needs of this particular time. And having that bigger, broader conversation is good.

00:43:40

Speaker 2: I think that what you tried to do is a good idea when it didn't go well, hey, could we talk about this? And this is what I don't know exactly how that conversation began,

00:43:50

Speaker 2: but I do think that it's a conversation that benefits from a lot of acknowledging all that is valid. The friend is lonely and isolated and that is real. The mental health of just being in the apartment with the one other person is real. You know and

00:44:07

Speaker 2: and reward assessment. Yeah. The risk reward assessment. But just actually talking about how valid all of it is

00:44:14

Speaker 2: can take sometimes take the defensiveness out of the person who acted in a way that made you uncomfortable. But then say what I'd love to do is come up with a plan for the future and if they're not willing to work with you, I think then you're starting to hit dan's more extreme situation of you know. Now we got to ask some real questions here

00:44:34

Speaker 2: whether moving out is even an option is even a question,

00:44:37

Speaker 2: but I think if they are willing to kind of here and just accept the reality that your lives impact one another in this particular interaction, didn't make you feel great in your own home.

00:44:48

Speaker 2: Can we come up with some things that would make this better? And then you always use the phrase for both of us, right? Like you include the other person in the goodness that could come from something like this, and I think that's another another way to channel that language, so that it gets to that goal of we both want to live here well

00:45:07

Speaker 1: and be ready to stay flexible

00:45:09

Speaker 1: because as we mentioned at the start, these things are changing all the time. It might not be that you can

00:45:15

Speaker 1: set up a future plan that's going to be dependable or if the roommate won't agree to it. I also wanted to mention that sometimes when you're trying to resolve something that's really difficult where there's a real impasse that it might not happen in one conversation, that it might be about checking in letting someone know

00:45:35

Speaker 1: how what happened impacted you, how you're thinking and feeling about it. Maybe putting some ideas on the table, but

00:45:41

Speaker 1: that might take a day or two to kind of settle and be something that someone can react to and respond to.

00:45:48

Speaker 2: Do you think it's also worth and in that moment, like really emphasizing that you do want to know their perspective to, you know, because sometimes I feel like when you get someone who's always

00:45:58

Speaker 2: really trying to hit home how they were impacted by something, it can just make you feel like I feel like I have to

00:46:05

Speaker 2: deal with so much of you, you know, like where am I in this? And it it can be, I think it can really help the other party when when you're being really inclusive of their impact as well while delivering the I feel statements

00:46:20

Speaker 1: that's very emotionally intelligent,

00:46:24

Speaker 1: trapped. We really hope that our answer helps you feel less trapped and gives you a few tools for navigating this potentially tricky situation.

00:46:33

Speaker 2: Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. Leave a voicemail or text at 802858 K. I. N. D. That's 8028585463 Or you can find us on social media on twitter. We're at Emily postings

00:46:51

Speaker 2: on instagram, we are at Emily Post Institute

00:46:54

Speaker 2: and on facebook we are awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media post so that we know you want your question on the show.

00:47:03

Speaker 1: Mhm.

00:47:03

Speaker 1: If you love awesome etiquette, consider becoming a sustaining member. You can find out more about this by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette. You'll get an ads, free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content

00:47:16

Speaker 1: plus you'll feel great knowing you helped to keep awesome etiquette on the air and to those of you who are already sustaining members. Thank you so much for your support.

00:47:25

Speaker 2: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer in the topics we cover and today we're hearing from a few different listeners about getting guests to use coasters. That was a question from a while back.

00:47:39

Speaker 1: Now, first we hear from Beverly,

00:47:41

Speaker 1: hello lizzie and dan, thanks for making such an informative, useful and entertaining podcast. I have some thoughts about the coaster question that I listened to last night.

00:47:50

Speaker 1: If the host is so concerned about the furniture, then maybe shifting the way of entertaining would make hosting more enjoyable. For example, large events could be held only outdoors when the weather is nice, then indoor entertaining with smaller groups could be held inside as the weather dictates.

00:48:06

Speaker 1: If coaster use is a must, then how about having it be a DY I party activity guests make their own coasters at a coaster creation station. I'm thinking of a coaster version of the wine glass charms to help guests track their glasses. Guests might be more cooperative in using their little piece of art.

00:48:25

Speaker 1: I love the idea of using glass tops for special pieces.

00:48:28

Speaker 1: I also think tablecloths could be the answer to I have a spin on the tablecloth idea.

00:48:34

Speaker 1: The host could use those 40 style fruit pattern, vinyl tablecloths on everything for a forties theme party or red checkered tablecloth for a pizzeria party etcetera. These ideas popped into my head so I thought I'd share them with you. Thanks again for a great podcast

00:48:51

Speaker 1: Beverly

00:48:51

Speaker 2: federally, thank you for a great feedback share. That was awesome, definitely A lot of ideas to run with their,

00:48:58

Speaker 2: our next piece of feedback is from Elizabeth who says I've got the answer. The host who requires people to use coasters should make that clear on the invitation. That way I can be sure to never attend a party at their house. Honestly, what our tables for, if not to put things on

00:49:16

Speaker 2: the person who posed this question is indeed the prototypical nervous host

00:49:22

Speaker 2: as someone who doesn't use coasters at home because I have tables, countertops and desks that can accommodate objects without crumbling to dust. I have encountered this host before and it is the most unwelcoming feeling in the world to have my movements monitored and be scolded every time I sat down a drink.

00:49:39

Speaker 2: I love your suggestion of covering precious surfaces with a piece of glass or tablecloth. That's a logical solution for a question that drove me a little bit crazy. Thanks for all you do Elizabeth.

00:49:51

Speaker 1: Now we're going to hear from mel with another take. Who wrote in? Hey lizzie and dan, I was listening to your latest episode and the listener question help caught my attention

00:50:00

Speaker 1: upon guests arriving. I think it would be perfectly appropriate to say something like

00:50:05

Speaker 1: hi dan, I'm so glad you could make it. There are drinks in the cooler sodas in the fridge and there should be coasters on the table. If you don't see one, let me know, enjoy something like that where you lump the coaster in with the welcoming orientation. That usually happens when letting people know where to find beverages.

00:50:23

Speaker 1: Would love to hear the follow up answer that you decide is most appropriate.

00:50:27

Speaker 1: Looking forward to the days of parties again. Thanks

00:50:31

Speaker 2: Oh mel. We are so looking forward to the days of parties again, dan. I am so glad that we got this much feedback on one particular topic. It reminds me of the days of the pizza,

00:50:41

Speaker 2: the pizza order toppings war

00:50:44

Speaker 1: or shoes in your house,

00:50:46

Speaker 2: right. Um, and I've got to say Elizabeth did really make me chuckle with it because we all know that you would never put coaster information or something like that on an invitation.

00:50:56

Speaker 2: But just the idea of like, oh boy, don't, don't make me be that guest who feels monitored. I love the idea that Mel had of

00:51:04

Speaker 2: getting at it from the get go of, just reminding folks as a part of always offering things in your home, you always offer a coaster. I know, as soon as the hosts offers me a coaster, it's an immediate check off in my mind of, oh, I should probably be using a coaster at this host at this hosts home and I just go with it. Then.

00:51:24

Speaker 2: I also sympathise with the idea that you don't want to turn into someone who's so monitoring your guests over this that they start to feel uncomfortable.

00:51:32

Speaker 1: I really appreciated the ideas for creative ways to just cover all your stuff. The

00:51:38

Speaker 2: 40s theme party, the Pizzeria theme party. I thought we have some really great listeners.

00:51:44

Speaker 1: Is there some kind of theme party I could throw for my Children's entire teenage years or something. Right.

00:51:51

Speaker 2: Oh goodness listeners, thank you so much for all your feedback and please please

00:51:57

Speaker 1: keep your thoughts and updates coming. You can send

00:51:59

Speaker 2: your feedback or update to awesome dedicated Emily post

00:52:02

Speaker 1: dot com or leave us a voicemail text

00:52:04

Speaker 2: At 802858 kinds. That's 8 028585463.

00:52:09

Speaker 2: Yeah,

00:52:13

Speaker 1: it's time for our post script segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette and today we're going to talk about a reading from the 1922 edition of etiquette on the dangers to be avoided in conversation. And I've got to say,

00:52:29

Speaker 2: I'm wearing this one rings

00:52:30

Speaker 1: true. Almost 100 years later, dan

00:52:34

Speaker 2: Was so excited about this one when I started reading it too. It was like, I I give this advice, I'm like, I know all right. It's to be found on pages 55 and 56 and it's titled dangers to be avoided

00:52:47

Speaker 2: in conversation. The dangers are very much the same as those to be avoided in writing letters. Talk about things which you think will be agreeable to your hearer.

00:52:57

Speaker 2: Don't dilate on ils misfortune or other unpleasantness. The one in greatest danger of making enemies is the man or woman of brilliant wit.

00:53:10

Speaker 2: If sharp wit is apt to produce a feeling of mistrust even while it stimulates

00:53:16

Speaker 2: furthermore, the applause, which follows every witty sally becomes in time, breath to the nostrils and perfectly well intentioned people who mean to say nothing unkind. In the flash of a second quote, unquote, see a point, and in the next second score it

00:53:35

Speaker 2: with no more power to resist than a drug addict can resist a dose put into his hand.

00:53:41

Speaker 2: The mimic is a joy to his present company, but the eccentric mannerism of one is much easier to imitate than the charm of another, and the subjects of the habitual mimic are all too apt to become his enemies.

00:53:59

Speaker 2: You need not, however, be dull because you refrain from the rank habit of a critical attitude which like a weed will grow all over the place. If you let it have half a chance, a very good resolve to make and keep. If you would also keep any friends you make

00:54:17

Speaker 2: is never to speak of anyone without in imagination having them over here what you say. One often hears the exclamation. I would say it to her face,

00:54:29

Speaker 2: At least be very sure that this is true and not a braggarts phrase and then nine times out of 10. Think better of it and refrain,

00:54:40

Speaker 2: preaching is all very well in a textbook schoolroom or pulpit, but it has no place in society. Society is supposed to be a pleasant place telling people disagreeable things to their faces or behind their backs is not a pleasant occupation.

00:54:59

Speaker 1: I love that. I know I love that section and on and on.

00:55:04

Speaker 2: Although we stopped what you're about to say. But ironically this is one of those places that is then followed with something that we don't agree with, which is the idea that women should make men look good when they

00:55:15

Speaker 1: talk really foul concept.

00:55:17

Speaker 2: But no, we're glad we ditched that one. But so many good points here because so many good points.

00:55:23

Speaker 1: It's true and I'll just tell you as you're reading. One thing delights me more than the next until we heard her say the rank habit of critical attitude. And I just had to write it down as you said it because it's a thought that I really appreciate. I think that the temptation of

00:55:43

Speaker 1: being critical or what people call ironic today or sarcastic cynical, it's just such a trap and I watch it capture people's minds and capture their sense of humor and capture the way they

00:55:58

Speaker 1: view things. It it stops becoming just a funny, funny thing to say and starts becoming an attitude or approach to rank habit of critical attitude and to hear Emily talk about it being problematic in her day and it's something to caution about and be careful of in yourself reminded me that it's that it's that it's real that's a real trap. It's not just something that we're falling prey to right now in this moment this time. But but that it's

00:56:26

Speaker 1: there is something there that that's worth watching and that both makes it

00:56:31

Speaker 1: may be easier to deal with some ways and harder to deal with in some ways.

00:56:34

Speaker 2: In so many ways it reminds me of like just the idea of cool and like what's not cool and like it's it's not cool to dislike everything. Like it's it's it's not

00:56:48

Speaker 2: to do to, to act like everything's kind of not of interest to me.

00:56:53

Speaker 2: In fact what Emily is saying is that, you know, a lot of people fear being dull and needing to have some kind of attitude about what they're saying and in fact the opposite is true. That, you know, more sincerely formed thought and expression of it is much more likely to garner conversation and discussion

00:57:16

Speaker 2: than just putting out there, that something is awful bad or

00:57:21

Speaker 2: or a part of everything being awful and that, you know, it's just, it's it's not cool, it's not fun, it doesn't serve the purpose of socializing and this isn't to say that getting together and having critical ideas isn't a good thing, it is a good thing, but how you make that delivery is such a difference to how you are going to

00:57:41

Speaker 2: participate well and be a

00:57:45

Speaker 2: respected I think person within your group, whether that's family, whether that's peers, whether that's colleagues, you know, whatever it is, the naysayers does not win, like it's, they just don't win and I like you dan. I found it really interesting that even in Emily's day, the naysayers didn't win

00:58:02

Speaker 1: and it's so tempting. We say in our business classes, be careful about negative gossip. It's easy to fall into the trap of building rapport around sharing

00:58:13

Speaker 1: 30 laundry and um, picking things apart.

00:58:18

Speaker 1: But as Emily points out, and as you just stated so eloquently it's, it's not as clever as it might feel or sound to the person doing it and it doesn't always land. Well, there was one other thing,

00:58:31

Speaker 1: the thing that jumped out, we're reading that I just have to mention also, which was Emily's advice to be careful about how you talk about people when they're not present

00:58:40

Speaker 1: as a particular mechanism for holding yourself accountable. It is, and you and I have have gone back and forth on how realistic and expectation that is. And I think there's some subtlety to how you can both be honest and talk about difficulties and problems that you're having.

00:58:59

Speaker 1: But doing it in a way that

00:59:02

Speaker 1: you could be ultimately accountable for is a question that I think is worth thinking about when we've investigated on the show before. And I was just really curious to hear about the way that Emily sort of weighed in with it as a big picture umbrella idea for her. It

00:59:14

Speaker 2: was a big warning. It was a big warning of, you know, would you really say it to their face and who is it that you're saying it to? You know,

00:59:23

Speaker 2: in my mind, there is a difference between you and your your nearest and dearest and you fleshing out some of the experiences you've had with other people and just simply trash talkin somebody. You know, it's there's a really, there's a big difference between them, but they could that line I think could easily cross

00:59:42

Speaker 2: sometimes when you're trying to work something out or you're really frustrated about a situation or an interaction that happened with someone and you are telling someone else about it.

00:59:50

Speaker 2: It can do the thing, it needs to do. It lets you explore it privately, manage it and then figure out how you're going to proceed with the person directly involved. And other times it can just cross into being a broken record, where it almost seems like you're trying to gather people on your side or something. And

01:00:11

Speaker 2: I love the Emily closes that kind of section by saying this is not how we try to behave when we're trying to be in a pleasant society with one another.

01:00:20

Speaker 2: We can save those thoughts and conversations or have them in other ways, you know? Um but I think that that self accountability of, would you really say it to her face and if you said it to her face, would you say it that way is a very good question to be asking her questions to be asking yourself as you think.

01:00:38

Speaker 2: I always love Emily's descriptions. You know, the mimic is a joy but then can easily create, you know enemies. You might be able to mimic someone's eccentricities but you can't mimic their charm like

01:00:53

Speaker 1: just she she had a

01:00:54

Speaker 2: way with words Emily and

01:00:56

Speaker 2: to continue through. That has always been true. You know, we talk about that third tier of conversation being family,

01:01:04

Speaker 2: sometimes being finance and often being like physical or medical issues and she says don't dilate on ils misfortune or other unpleasantness is and that's not to say you can't discuss them with your best friend or something, but at someone else's dinner party, is it going to become the main topic of table conversation? Probably not.

01:01:24

Speaker 1: Probably not Lizzie because this was a phenomenal reading. Thank you so much for getting us back to the 1922 edition of etiquette and please do find more like this. It's like, what else can we get out of

01:01:36

Speaker 2: here anyway? Well, thank you. It's always a joy. Always a joy to break out original Emily.

01:01:43

Speaker 2: Yes.

01:01:44

Speaker 2: Well, johnny's room and so

01:01:48

Speaker 2: he doesn't think of others. You won't take journey

01:01:51

Speaker 2: and he always seems to be mad at somebody always shot. You're bossing us around.

01:02:01

Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

01:02:03

Speaker 2: We'd like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world and that can come in so many forms. And today we have a salute from Gina. Hi,

01:02:14

Speaker 1: awesome etiquette. I have a salute to send out this week. Ever since the pandemic. It. I've been trying to support local restaurants without dining in.

01:02:21

Speaker 1: So I've been doing a lot of online and call in orders just picking up from my favorite places.

01:02:28

Speaker 1: There is one restaurant in particular that is always crazy busy with lots of orders where I always feel bad for adding to their load.

01:02:35

Speaker 1: But the host is there who hands out orders is always kind and courteous. No matter how overwhelmed she may be at the time.

01:02:42

Speaker 1: She assures me that they appreciate all the business during this time and always make sure I have everything I need and wishes me a good day. So here's a salute to her for not letting the stress out on others. Thanks Gina

01:02:55

Speaker 2: Gina. What a great salute. I always love it when it feels like your community is a place where you're experiencing all that good etiquette. Gina, thank you so much

01:03:04

Speaker 1: for this feedback.

01:03:06

Speaker 1: Mm

01:03:09

Speaker 2: And thank you for listening

01:03:11

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01:03:16

Speaker 2: Please connect with us and share this show with friends, family and co workers. And if you'd like to on social media to

01:03:22

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01:03:28

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01:03:43

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01:03:50

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01:03:57

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01:04:01

Speaker 2: edited by Chris Albertine. An assistant

01:04:03

Speaker 1: produced by Brigitte

01:04:04

Speaker 2: Dowd. Thanks Kris and Brigitte Brigitte.

01:04:09

Speaker 2: Okay.

01:04:11

Speaker 2: Yeah.