Episode 347 - Crafting Compliments

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Speaker 1: maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social. Could you see that's old fashioned,

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Speaker 1: watch how busy

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Speaker 2: post and then post to act as host and hostess.

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Speaker 1: They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person, real friendliness.

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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to awesome

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Speaker 2: etiquette where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. On

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Speaker 1: today's show, we take your questions on how long should a visit last, crafting compliments. Playdate hosting gifts and accepting compliments

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Speaker 2: for awesome etiquette sustaining members. Our question of the week is about picking up your small pooch in public

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Speaker 1: plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a postscript on netiquette. Yes, we really just said netiquette,

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Speaker 2: All that coming up

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Speaker 2: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute.

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Speaker 1: I'm lizzie Post

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Speaker 2: and I'm dan post sending

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Speaker 1: because

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Speaker 2: how's it going?

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Speaker 1: It's going,

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Speaker 2: I'm glad to hear it, but before you say anything, I have a question to ask you.

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Speaker 1: Oh really, what are you piping up with today?

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Speaker 2: We got a really interesting email last week and you've gotten to spend a little more time with it than I have. But I am so curious. We got our first, I will call them chapters, but for sections back from the publisher.

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Speaker 1: Yes, we did.

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Speaker 1: We do till I couldn't make

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Speaker 2: heads or tails of it. It was, it was very confusing for me

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Speaker 1: much like probably having to do some of the things in the training world would feel confusing to me because they're not just like the familiar part of what I engage with. But

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Speaker 1: yeah, getting back a publisher's manuscript, edited up, marked up. It can be

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Speaker 1: a little jarring. I'll admit that whenever I receive a book back I often wait a little bit. It's like I have to brace myself for being ready to look at it because it's going to be bloody, it's going to be very heavily marked up. No matter how brilliant you think you are. No matter how awesome that one line is actually a lot of the good awesome one liners. They don't mark up. But like

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Speaker 1: it is really hard to look at something that you have spent months and like ours in just bloodshot eye state of like, you know, three o'clock in the morning computer screen light is all you've seen for 24 hours

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Speaker 1: to put that kind of labor into it. And then, and, and really feel like you're handing it in and the most finished version you can give and then have someone just rip it to shreds. So I take I take a little bit of time when I received that document from the publisher, I definitely need to embrace myself for opening it. But you braved it because

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Speaker 1: you couldn't opened in that heart attack. I

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Speaker 2: was so excited.

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Speaker 2: We've been waiting. I really wanted to see. And it's actually complicated. Were so many changes to the document and the way my particular version of word was displaying them was um it was confusing to me. I felt like I was looking at an auto clad, you know, rendering of a building that

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Speaker 2: you had a lot of technical specs that I just didn't fully follow.

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Speaker 1: And I to I will admit when I opened up Caitlin and Julie's edits on on the 20th edition manuscript, the version that I was looking at it and had the wayward had formatted it and track changes were being used.

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Speaker 1: It was confusing for me too. And it took it took adjusting a couple settings to get it to display in a way that I could actually see

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Speaker 1: the things that have been deleted and where the specific comments applied to. At one point they were all dropping off the bottom of the page and I couldn't find them

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Speaker 2: and I'm looking forward to learning how to do that from you because that's what I want to really read their editorial comments and that was what I was scanning for and I just, I couldn't find them quickly. I'll

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Speaker 1: call you in on all that. But

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Speaker 1: what was really great was that dan had had done this first and that he had had like a heart attack when as I said before when he opened it up it was like oh my gosh I can't make heads or tail of this. First of all, you gave me in your critique of it to me when we got on the phone the next day, you were very gracious

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Speaker 1: in telling me how much work was ahead of me and how impressed you are by it. And that was really great. Like I really appreciated that I felt very validated in the work that I do and it is work. You know what I mean? It was it was nice to see someone else see what I'm up against on a on a more regular basis and be like, yeah, that's tough.

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Speaker 1: Um I really appreciated that because but I will say that I opened it up and was was very relieved. It was not as marked up as I thought it was going to be. It was it had less marks on it than higher etiquette did. So it felt to me like a really big win.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know right. And and I know that gave you some relief when I then told you that. I was like, I was like, oh, it's not as bad as I think you like, glad to hear you're saying that. But what was really fun was actually I hopped on the phone with Caitlin or editor to go over

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Speaker 1: some of the edits and just to make sure I've got down how she wants to receive feedback and comments and things like that from us on this.

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Speaker 1: And it was really great because she shared that they're really loving the book that they felt like it was in a really good state, that we've given it to them in a good state. And I cannot tell you as, as the main writer on it, sharing that with the support team and hearing everybody, you my parents, your mom,

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Speaker 1: like all just say, oh, that's such a relief. That's so good to hear,

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Speaker 1: you know, from folks who have worked with manuscripts and publishers for years and they know it doesn't, you don't always get that kind of a review back. Sometimes there's a lot of problems. Sometimes they didn't see it the same way that you saw it. And

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Speaker 1: it was really, really, really validating and gratifying to hear that, that they've been liking the book, that it's feeling like an easy edit to them.

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Speaker 1: I almost can't even get the words out. It's it feels really incredible.

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Speaker 2: It is really good news and I'm not surprised, I'll tell you that also, but it is really good

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Speaker 1: news

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Speaker 2: and I was particularly curious and I know you were also about the response from, like you say, a group of professionals, people who are used to looking at manuscripts and this is more than one person to, which also complicates things a little bit who are reading this book, but people who aren't up to their eyeballs in the world of etiquette, and particularly Emily post etiquette.

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Speaker 2: So in some ways it's a test drive of the material, not just how the manuscript itself stands up, but how does Emily post stand up, as we sort of, you know, peak out of our of our own world. And and look at that broader publishing world, and again, for me, and I'm sure for you also really affirming to hear we like what we're seeing here,

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Speaker 2: we can work with this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it really it really does. I also felt like one of the comments Caitlin made was that it's

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Speaker 1: got that modern, take modern perspective, but that it really comes through the sense of tradition that etiquette has sort of built upon over all the years, especially that Emily Post has been a part of it. And it was nice to feel like

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Speaker 1: that balance was struck because I think sometimes our audience divides kind of into traditionalists and modernists and I really like the idea that they can they can live in the same space and and still understand the social niceties that can still be extended within those two realms. You know,

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Speaker 2: and not only are those two camps, not in opposition, but in the best possible world, I hope Emily post world, they're supportive of each other, that they each feel affirmed and

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Speaker 2: in many ways like there

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Speaker 2: part of the same community, part of the same family.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, it was definitely an exciting moment. I was glad it went the way it did. I've delved into the first section of the book, the Note to read her. Um and it's it's it's nice

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Speaker 1: getting through it and kind of getting my hands back into this. I can't wait to turn it over to you and see your comments on all the

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Speaker 2: comments. It was just going to say and I can't wait to actually follow you down that rabbit all

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Speaker 2: but in the meantime

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Speaker 2: we do have a show and some questions to get to.

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Speaker 1: We do indeed. Let's do it.

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Speaker 2: Let's do it.

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Speaker 1: Awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions. You can email them to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. Leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463

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Speaker 1: You can reach us on social media on twitter. We're at Emily Post install on instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette.

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Speaker 1: Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media posts so that we know you want your question on the show.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: Mhm.

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Speaker 2: Our first question this week is about how long to visit Hi lizzie Daniel and team. Thank you for taking the time to read my question. I enjoy reading the Emily Post books and love this podcast.

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Speaker 2: I am now facing a problem since the world is starting to reopen. I am hoping you might have a minute to help me get something right when it comes to visiting family and friends.

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Speaker 2: It is a two part question first. How long is it appropriate to stay for a visit context? I am enquiring about stopping by on a saturday or sunday afternoon or something similar. Not as if I have taken a holiday to come visit

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Speaker 2: second when it is time for the visit to end. How do I leave with Grace?

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Speaker 2: Normally when I visit I try a stay of two times the commute. So if it took one hour to get there I would plan to visit for approximately two hours then to leave.

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Speaker 2: But I'm not sure if this is too long or if I should even be considering the commute when I'm trying to figure out how long to visit.

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Speaker 2: I love seeing them and it is not something I get to do often, but I never want to come across as one who doesn't know a visit has come to an end. Please help thank you for your time, sincerely SB

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Speaker 1: sp this is a great question. It actually leads off the entertaining section of our newest book. The idea of those short visits, whether they're stopped by whether their impromptu even if their planned on,

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Speaker 1: how long is it when it's not dinner or an event that sort of tied to it with a bit of traditional timing and I think it's a question sp that a lot of us are going to be more varied on than we used to be before the pandemic. I have a feeling dan that people are going to either be craving being out of their homes and with other people and want to stay really long and maybe not pick up on the cues to leave or

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Speaker 1: they might find themselves feeling like they need to leave sooner than usual or than they might otherwise because it feels overwhelming to be with people because we haven't been for so long. So I anticipate this being very varied, inexperience with different people and being something that will probably change as we all readjust to normal life. Again, quote unquote normal life. Again,

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Speaker 2: I definitely could see this being one of those places where keeping your post pandemic end of pandemic. Hopefully flexibility is going to be a big part of having the good etiquette. But I'm curious what are your thoughts as a general parameter for a visit like this? An afternoon stop by.

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Speaker 1: It's funny, I don't myself take the dry like the commute into account as much as our listeners been thinking about it. But I also do I, I know that other people do. I mean I have a lot of times my friend jenny will say, you know, it's kind of like not enough of a visit to warrant the hour and a half drive it takes to get there or something like that. And I get that like I do. I'm always bummed when I hear it, but I also get it because it's like if you're going to be

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Speaker 1: Driving for a total of three hours to hang out with someone for a half hour, 45 minutes an hour, it might feel like a stretch, you know, like not quite the right balance you want to strike at the same time, rural communities or heavy traffic areas. This can be the reality of being able to go hang out with people.

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Speaker 1: I like the idea of unless you've specified that it's gonna be a short visit to think of it in that like, oh gosh, I'm worried that what I'm about to say might sound bizarre now, but that 2 to 4 hours

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Speaker 1: I think tends to be comfortable visiting time to I feel like is good, but still a little on the short side. I don't know why, I'm not saying three is perfectly comfortable in the middle and four, I feel like can be really sufficient to get in like a meal and an activity or

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Speaker 1: some group time and maybe some one on one time with some of the people visiting. You know, I could see you and pooch having someone come over where

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Speaker 1: the person does like a lunch with you and the girls and then maybe it's one of his friends and the two of them take a four mile hike around your property, you know, and you could see that being a way to even break up a longer visit. I don't know, dan I've got so many ideas in my head. What

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Speaker 2: have you got going on?

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Speaker 2: It's funny because you instantly went a little longer than I would, but as you described it, I was hearing the kind of visit that you were describing and it made perfect sense. And I was thinking to myself that in some ways the nature of the visit is going to determine and I know that's a lot of what you cover in that section about

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Speaker 2: The different kinds of visits and how to depart and how to identify what kind of visit your participating in in the 20th edition. And

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Speaker 2: If I was anticipating a stay that was 2-4 hours, I would imagine there would be some discussion about what we were doing during that visit that would be part of the planning for that.

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Speaker 2: If I was thinking I was

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Speaker 2: going to visit someone's house for discussion in the afternoon

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Speaker 2: without the idea that there's going to be a lunch or there's going to be a hike or there's going to be

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Speaker 2: time to do something with the girls or something like that that I was thinking about an hour

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Speaker 2: and yeah, it's like sort of a visit time where if I start to get much more than an hour

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Speaker 2: unless we're up to something,

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Speaker 1: I was going to say you're going

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Speaker 2: to like, it draws on the attention of the hosts in some way.

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Speaker 1: It's funny how like you could kind of get away right with probably about an hour's worth of conversation and then

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Speaker 1: it's are we going to do something? It's funny. I wonder if for all of us that's a sense of

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Speaker 1: does this feel like enough if there's not more distraction than just talking and at the same time I know pre pandemic. I definitely

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Speaker 1: hung out with people for more than an hour with just talking as the agenda, you know what I mean? But I am with you that without some kind of activity like we said a meal or a walk or I don't even know what I think after an hour and a half I would start to feel a little stretched like a little, a little like,

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Speaker 1: okay, I might have to start thinking of

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Speaker 1: things to talk about now, you know, like I might have run out of of the natural ketchup that could be happening.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Or even if there's still more to say, I know that I have a sort of cycle of exertion and recuperation socially and even if there is more to do, I might,

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Speaker 2: it might be useful to have breaks in the interaction in a way that lets you gather yourself recover and really have something to put out there to share.

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Speaker 1: So you're saying using the restroom could gain you an extra 15 minutes. No, I'm just kidding.

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Speaker 2: The chance to put together a snack or yeah, take a walk around. I like you was thinking about the question specifically about should the length of the commute factor into my time planning a visit and generally speaking, I would think, no,

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Speaker 2: that you wouldn't want to put that on someone is like, oh, because I put this much in it, you owe me that much time out of it. If it was, if it becomes that kind of transactional calculation and I think there's something natural to the way you were talking about it. Where if I know someone's really made an effort driven over an hour to see me

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Speaker 2: As we get to that 40 minute mark on the conversation, I'm not feeling as much pressure

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Speaker 2: Or some sort of as comfortable thinking to myself boys getting on at 40 minutes. Even if that was my expectation,

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Speaker 2: I think that

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Speaker 2: it's natural for those social investments to be part of the

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Speaker 2: calculation as you're figuring out how long to let this linger

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Speaker 1: and it's not hard and fast. It's more of a feeling, right? It's more that like, oh, like, I mean even when you guys over over, Covid were able to do some family visits when people quarantined and kind of all followed the rules and then you guys could get together. And

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Speaker 1: I always hear when I hear about those and these are longer, but we're talking overnight visits, that kind of thing with those longer visits. I I hear a lot of your hosting skills come into play for making someone comfortable and, and and putting some effort into the fact that they, not,

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Speaker 1: not strictly because they traveled all this way, but just lightly recognizing I didn't have to travel. They came to my house and they're pleasant guests. So it makes hosting them nice. I want to make things good for them because they did make all that effort to come here. And I feel like when you would go down to visit your in laws,

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Speaker 1: there was a lot of let's make it nice for them. There was one weekend where you had to work and they did such a great job of giving you the space to work, you know? And so as much as we say, like no, it's not a strict give and take like calculation, it is a little bit of a consideration, maybe I would say,

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Speaker 2: I think that's a good way to think about it. The one other part of this question that I think it's important to address before we wrap it is the question of how to make that departure gracefully. So there's lots of things to watch for and obviously your host cues are one of them. But

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Speaker 2: to me this is an easy etiquette answer. It's a magic words answer. As long as you remember your thank you, you've got an exit strategy. That's that's an A

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Speaker 1: plus, totally. Thanks. So it is a good exit strategy

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Speaker 2: at the time and tell them how good it was to see them. And

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Speaker 2: if it's appropriate that you look forward to the opportunity to do it again

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Speaker 2: and you say it with a smile on your face and warmth in your eyes and you mean it and it makes people feel really good,

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Speaker 1: it's really funny. But that wonderful line of well this has been so lovely, thank you for having me is just totally accepted. You know, it's like it's perfectly fine to put out there when you're ready to use it.

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Speaker 2: It really is

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Speaker 1: Sp thank you so much for the question.

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Speaker 1: It's going to be interesting to see how we all navigate social interaction again.

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Speaker 1: And when you're invited to a party, practice the skills of a good guest

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Speaker 1: leave on time and courteously to

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Speaker 1: thanking your host sincerely for the good time. You've had

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Speaker 1: all these things helped to make a good party

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Speaker 1: a party. That's fun for all.

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Speaker 1: Yeah,

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Speaker 1: our next question is titled Crafting compliments.

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Speaker 1: Hi lizzie and dan. I enjoy your podcast every week and especially love your stories about life in Vermont, the image of dan taking the girls up the mountain to the sugar shack on the ride on mower made me chuckle. You,

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Speaker 2: someone found

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Speaker 1: me, you know, like it totally does.

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Speaker 1: You've discussed handcrafted gifts before in the context of lizzie's knitting and crafting. I to take pleasure in making handcrafted gifts for family and friends. My specialty is crotch such as hats, scarves, shawls, baby items, and handbags. My question is,

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Speaker 1: what is the most gracious way to respond when someone pays you the compliment

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Speaker 1: of wearing or using your handmade item? I usually smile and say that looks great on you or something similar. I don't want to appear to be fishing for compliments though, would it be better to wait until the gift he brings it up? Thank you for your thoughts. And then I love this signature happy hooker.

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Speaker 1: Crochet, Crochet, crochet!

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Speaker 2: This question makes me smile because I love handmade stuff. I love crafting, I love, I love getting this kind of stuff. One of the great delights for me over the last year was watching my brother respond to a handmade gift that pooja gave them and she had made these for a lot of different people.

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Speaker 2: But my brother was so delighted, so just particularly tickled hold it. Can you see

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Speaker 1: the suit? Look at this, look what this is, look what you made

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Speaker 2: me.

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Speaker 2: It can be really, really nice to see somebody respond to something that you've made. And there's something about that whole exchange that's really gratifying. And

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Speaker 2: I don't think there's anything wrong with mentioning when you see someone wearing something that you've made. And it's interesting to me that you bring up the idea of not wanting to appear like you're fishing for compliments. And I think you can always just acknowledge that someone's wearing something that you made. Oh I see that you're wearing such and such. That puts a smile on my

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Speaker 1: face

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Speaker 2: and then you're talking about your reaction to it and you're not um remarking on the thing itself in a way that might draw the attention to that,

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Speaker 2: which might put a little bit of pressure on someone to make a compliment, a really subtle thought. But I think it's a good one.

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Speaker 1: I definitely know that when someone's coming over to my house and they've, they've made me something that I enjoy putting it out, I enjoy using it or if I'm going to go visit them and they've made me a scarf, I like wearing that scarf

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Speaker 1: because I want them to see

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Speaker 1: that I'm wearing it and enjoying it and hearing them say anything, oh, oh, I'm so happy to see you wearing it, that it's like exactly the reaction I'm looking for, you know, it's like I think of it as you know, you've already done the thank you's and the gift exchange and all of that.

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Speaker 1: But I find it another way to kind of reiterate that gratitude is by wearing it or using it in front of the person

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Speaker 1: and I think there's nothing wrong with you saying exactly what dan and I have both said now, which is, I'm so glad you're using it, I'm so glad you're enjoying it, I'm so glad you're wearing it. You know, you don't even have to assume that they love it with the enjoying, you just say I'm so glad you're wearing it or using it so great

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Speaker 1: and they will probably give you another thank you or I'm loving it more than I thought I would. This is fantastic, like

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Speaker 1: wow, what a difference! Or everybody pays me compliments on this. You know, those are the types of follow ups that I hear a lot about. Never once have I ever thought that the person who gave it to me was fishing for a compliment at all,

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Speaker 2: happy hooker, keep up the great work, keep sharing those gifts and keep enjoying seeing them on the people that you love.

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Speaker 1: Oh mom! Dad, it's beautiful. Look at my little sister, give me a lucky fella, How did you know I mean? It's very one I want.

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Speaker 2: Our next question is about Playdate hosting gifts.

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Speaker 2: Hi, lizzie and dan. I love tuning in every week to your podcast and have been listening from the very beginning, my husband and I love to listen together on long road trips and try to guess your answers to the questions before listening to your answers.

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Speaker 2: I have a variation on a host guest question that I don't think you've answered before. We have two young sons who pre pandemic, had a fairly active social life. We both went to and hosted a lot of play dates. My question is this should you bring some kind of hostess gift to a play date?

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Speaker 2: I have always been of the belief that when you are invited to someone's house, you shouldn't show up empty handed,

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Speaker 2: but I've noticed over the past few years that I am often the only person who brings something for the host family as a thank you

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Speaker 2: and have rarely had anyone brings something to my house, even people whom I have brought to previously.

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Speaker 2: I don't bring something big, usually something edible and homemade if I can, but I would feel rude showing up empty handed. I should note that my Children are very young. So for Playdates, a parent attends with their child. So it's also a social experience for the adults,

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Speaker 2: but with several play dates a week. A hostess gift adds up both financially and time wise and leaves me feeling resentful that I am the only person doing this and it is never reciprocated.

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Speaker 2: Do you have any advice about how to handle this situation going forward? Does it make a difference if it is a one on one play date or a group setting?

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Speaker 2: Any advice you have would be so greatly appreciated. As I really have been questioning how to handle this. Thank you so much confused mama.

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Speaker 1: Okay, dan, I think I have an answer for this, but then I'm going to need to toss it right to you for for the for the experienced parental hand like advice. Okay. I

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Speaker 2: think there's a lot of good general etiquette here, what you're what you're going to say.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I would love to be able to and I'm not sure if I will be able to but

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Speaker 1: absolve confused mama of the worry that you have to bring a gift every single time at the same time. I know that that is something that some people feel very, it's like very ingrained manner in them and that even though it's it's not one that traditionally comes from the Emily post line of etiquette advice,

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Speaker 1: it is,

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Speaker 1: it is a common, it's a really common practice and and something we hear, I just couldn't imagine showing up without something I understand fully the feeling of, okay, I'm showing up, but nobody else has shown up and now this whole thing that's supposed to feel nice isn't feeling nice yuck and it's getting expensive because their kids hang out with other kids a lot.

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Speaker 1: Um I like the idea and I don't know if if confused mama will take me up on it, but of doing offering to contribute something to the playdate. So do you want me to bring over some apples for the kids or you know, I'd be happy to bring over a snack for the playdate, something like that.

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Speaker 1: So it feels more like a potluck contribution less, like an expensive gift.

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Speaker 1: Probably something in the realm of like affordable and on hand, easy. I'm thinking, what what what do you think? How great great the answer of the non parent.

00:26:09

Speaker 2: I really like it, it wasn't on my list, but I think it was better than the stuff that I had, so good work, you know, to me that makes perfect sense. That's a great way to honor that instinct of wanting to do something, wanting to contribute, wanting to support your host in some way, but also doing it in a way that

00:26:27

Speaker 2: might be more likely to engage people if they're not picking up on the idea that you're doing this as a matter of practice, as part of a visit. And I like the way you're noting that it really is an adult visit that we're calling it a playdate, but these are

00:26:42

Speaker 2: engagements where parents are getting together also and I have had a similar experience with play dates where you have to navigate the social considerations are both parents present are both of the other parents coming at. Both of the other parents come to both of our parents have to show up these sort of adult negotiations around the Children's played a kind of make them

00:27:01

Speaker 2: adult affairs in some ways,

00:27:03

Speaker 1: Danna also, I love all the thought around it because I'll be honest, I can remember moments. This is not play dates. These are like my teenage years when I would go over to like the house that we all hung out at and one time the parents let us know, hey guys, we just went grocery shopping and now like everything is

00:27:21

Speaker 1: gone within a day of you all hanging out here this afternoon, classic teenagers, right? We eat everybody out of house and home.

00:27:27

Speaker 1: But it was really kind of impactful to have the parents discuss with us from that kind of parental view of like, let us show you a little bit what life is like and how you impact us. And while I don't think that's a good idea to do with this circumstance. Um and it's clearly not the situation going on. I just like the idea of

00:27:48

Speaker 1: thinking about from a self reflective point of view, how we impact the spaces that we go to. It doesn't have to go to a place of guilt or feeling like if you didn't show up with anything that it would be incredibly wrong. I think as you've experienced, there are tons of play dates where nobody's bringing anything

00:28:05

Speaker 1: as a thank you gift or even as a contribution, it's kind of more of that reciprocal thing of

00:28:10

Speaker 1: your kids come over to my house. So I take care of their their dinner and their snacks and and the games and all that kind of stuff. And then when my kids go to your house, you take care of the dinners and the snacks and the games are the activities, you know. Um and I know that there's a lot of negotiation even around that. Like often parents offered to send their kid with enough to cover their entrance to a movie or something like that.

00:28:32

Speaker 1: So I know we're not we're not quite dealing with, you know, sleepovers and dinners at this age. We're dealing with the Playdates as we said, we're the adults come, but it's good to be aware of your impact. And then I think it's good to pay attention to what you're seeing in that social group, which is this is not a social group where that's of heavy importance to the people

00:28:50

Speaker 1: around you, it seems, and I don't want that to diminish the fact that for confused mama, that idea of bringing something or at least offering to contribute in some way isn't important, I think it is. Um but it's clear that with the rest of the group there, I don't think they're worried about it, you know,

00:29:07

Speaker 2: I don't either, and I'm thinking about sort of a three phase

00:29:11

Speaker 2: response for confused mama to the situation. And I think the first phase is a little bit what we're talking about, observing, what are the norms. Is this something that is done here? And I'm used to doing this just as something that's done, but that doesn't appear to be what's going on around me. I think that's a really good just antenna up noticing

00:29:31

Speaker 2: Phase two, I say to myself,

00:29:33

Speaker 2: is anyone picking up on it, is my behavior having an impact? Is it essentially working in terms of sharing that?

00:29:41

Speaker 2: And it might it might be that you show up with something and that other people respond in kind

00:29:47

Speaker 2: and maybe not if that doesn't get picked up. I think then you get to phase three, which is do you want to keep doing it yourself and I wouldn't underestimate the impact that it's having just because it isn't being reciprocated, it might be the kind of thing where you are that person in other people's minds who's just a standout, who's an exemplar, who's the one that's just awesome, nailing it gets it right. Always shows up with just a game for the kids are a little something for everyone to snack on, it's just amazing. It doesn't occur to them to tell you how wonderful you are, but that's the way they think of you because that's often the way it works with really good etiquette. I can think of so many examples

00:30:25

Speaker 1: is totally thinking of some parents right now that are like his favorite parents to set up play dates with because they make it so easy on him. Like it's totally that you could be that person for everybody confused mama,

00:30:36

Speaker 2: it might be working exactly the way you imagine it working and it's unfortunate sad that you feel without the reciprocation of it, that

00:30:46

Speaker 2: you don't feel supported in those same ways. If it's something that you can keep doing and feel good about, I would say keep going if it's something that can make you feel good,

00:30:55

Speaker 2: I'm guessing that it's probably having a positive impact on other people if it doesn't feel good, if it leaves you feeling drained, like your unappreciated, like your efforts aren't being reciprocated.

00:31:07

Speaker 2: Like lizzie Post said right at the start of this question, I

00:31:11

Speaker 2: I wish there was some way to help you feel better help you absolve yourself of that expectation that you have on yourself because I wouldn't ever want to suggest that you keep doing something that doesn't make you feel good, that's not having a good impact.

00:31:21

Speaker 1: Well there you have it confused mama, three different avenues to take to make these play dates a little less confusing.

00:31:32

Speaker 2: Our final question this week is about accepting compliments

00:31:36

Speaker 2: and today's question came as a voicemail from Elizabeth,

00:31:39

Speaker 1: Hey off Connecticut the skills, like a really silly question to ask. But it's something that has been bothering me for years

00:31:46

Speaker 1: when someone compliments something that I'm wearing. I feel awkward replying with the typical thank you because I feel like I didn't make the item myself uh they're not complimenting my design skills and my ability to so an article of clothing together. I just thought at the store and bought it because I also liked it.

00:32:04

Speaker 1: So it's someone else's design. So taking ownership by saying thank you feels kind of phony to me.

00:32:11

Speaker 1: Instead, my impulses to tell the person where I bought it because I figure if they're complimenting me then maybe they also would like that item for themselves. But um this project has kind of turned on me also because I think people might perceive it to be kind of draggy

00:32:28

Speaker 1: as if I'm alluding to how much I spent on the item based on where I bought it.

00:32:32

Speaker 1: So my question is when someone compliments and items that I'm wearing, what's a good response other than thank you.

00:32:39

Speaker 1: Oh Elizabeth talking about appearance, commenting on appearance, having our parents commented on this. Your questions and all the different thoughts that you have about someone complimenting an aspect of your outfit

00:32:54

Speaker 1: are definitely ones other other people have. And it's like,

00:32:58

Speaker 1: I want to say it's it's like fraught or dangerous territory and yet I don't because I like the idea of people being able to complement and say, oh that that shirts really cool or something like that. But for me dan, when I hear this and I hear the types of examples Elizabeth using as compliments,

00:33:16

Speaker 1: I understand the thinking of you don't like you weren't the one to create it. Maybe you weren't even the one

00:33:22

Speaker 1: to buy it. Maybe this was a gift, this is like someone else's good taste on you, you know what I mean? But you are the one who chose to dress yourself in it and clearly it's working for you and you've inspired someone else. And I think that for me that's why I don't have a problem saying, hey thanks. You know or like or I often do what Elizabeth is saying. She does as I say, oh thanks, I got it at such and such store

00:33:45

Speaker 1: or it was a gift from somebody. And then I I personally don't try to worry too much about whether that

00:33:51

Speaker 1: then is like describing how much the item was. Only because I know I buy everything and outlets on sales and like you know the basement prices of them. So um maybe my brain is and maybe I need to expand my thought more. But what are you thinking on this one?

00:34:09

Speaker 2: I guess my big picture etiquette thought is that I think accepting compliments can be hard

00:34:15

Speaker 2: for all kinds of reasons and

00:34:18

Speaker 2: we're taught to be modest to be circumspect to not promote ourselves or think that were great, take

00:34:26

Speaker 1: credit. We're not supposed to take credit for things that are not

00:34:28

Speaker 2: exactly for all that. We hear about an era of participation trophies and everyone's a winner, were also not supposed to walk around with our chest, puffed out thinking about how awesome we are,

00:34:41

Speaker 2: even if we name our podcast awesome, extremely

00:34:43

Speaker 1: self confident.

00:34:46

Speaker 2: And I think the ability to receive a compliment as part of that and there is some good etiquette to receiving a compliment well and not denying it or minimizing it or trying to deflect from it. Um allow someone else to feel good for giving you credit for giving you a compliment and

00:35:04

Speaker 2: it doesn't mean you have to, you're not obligated by a compliment. And as you pointed out, particularly comments about appearance and what people are wearing are potentially really fraud and

00:35:16

Speaker 2: um you shouldn't ever feel that you're compelled to thank someone for complimenting you and at the same time if it feels like a genuine compliment and it makes you feel good saying thank you is an entirely appropriate response.

00:35:28

Speaker 1: No, totally. And it's funny because as I try to think of other sample language,

00:35:34

Speaker 1: the types of things that come to my mind or if someone said,

00:35:38

Speaker 1: oh, nice shirt, I like that or, or someone said, oh nice shirt, I might say, oh, what do you like about it? But then I feel like that's asking for them to describe even more what they're loving about what I've put on today. And so maybe I was trying to think of other things other than thank you

00:35:56

Speaker 1: or I got it at this place. And I mean I'll admit, I feel a little, a little bit stumped, help me get out of my stump nous, because

00:36:05

Speaker 2: so here's my thought, I think that you may be stumped around a sample script

00:36:09

Speaker 2: because I think this might be one of those rare occasions where there isn't a sample script that you just don't reply

00:36:17

Speaker 2: and I was trying to imagine a scenario where someone gives me a compliment that I don't want to accept for any reason, try and where the thank you really isn't genuine and

00:36:28

Speaker 2: I think that there's

00:36:30

Speaker 2: moment where the compliments delivered

00:36:33

Speaker 2: and I think I've had these moments with people, I was thinking about them, where there's just some eye contact

00:36:38

Speaker 2: and it's essentially like, yes, I hear you and I'm just going to move beyond this because it's I'm not going to point out why that complement didn't land, essentially.

00:36:48

Speaker 2: I acknowledge that I heard what you said, that's the eye contact and it's not reproachful or questioning, it's just here you and we're going to move on. And

00:36:59

Speaker 2: it's precisely because I don't know if there's a polite thing to say

00:37:03

Speaker 2: when someone tries to say something nice and fails

00:37:07

Speaker 1: and it will and it like it's so

00:37:09

Speaker 1: depends on what the actual compliment is. Like you said, this is like when, when someone gives you what they think is a compliment really doesn't register as one to you when and, and Elizabeth issue is more, she doesn't want to take credit for something and she doesn't want to brag

00:37:24

Speaker 1: and I was starting to, in my head just wonder if,

00:37:28

Speaker 1: and it only works depending on what the other person says, but if someone said like, Hey cool hat

00:37:34

Speaker 1: maybe you could just say, yeah, I think it's cool to like, but is that accepting it is that arrogant? Does that come across as arrogant when I said it? Like? Yeah,

00:37:43

Speaker 2: not necessarily.

00:37:44

Speaker 1: I think this that's cool too, or like and it's so easy when something was a gift. Oh, I was really glad my aunt got this for me. I was so surprised. I love it. You know, it's

00:37:53

Speaker 1: that I feel like is complementing the piece itself and the surprise and not like taking on the Yeah, my style is awesome, you know, attitude of

00:38:01

Speaker 2: warm is so soft

00:38:04

Speaker 1: Elizabeth. If you give us long enough. I know we keep our answers usually between five and 10 minutes, but I still think Dan that your advice is probably the best.

00:38:14

Speaker 2: It is nice to have things to say and I just can't help. But the gig,

00:38:18

Speaker 2: sometimes the polite thing to do is not to say anything at all to not get any deeper and not point out

00:38:23

Speaker 2: a mistake that someone has made. And again, this is all if you're not gonna have a situation with someone where you're getting into a deeper discussion about why a compliment not appropriate or if it's something that happens again and again that you need to address or want to address

00:38:37

Speaker 2: Elizabeth. Thank you for this question about accepting compliments. It is potentially tricky etiquette territory and it's good to have a chance to go over it.

00:38:45

Speaker 1: Mhm.

00:38:45

Speaker 1: Good manners, social graces etiquette call it what you will all are based on consideration for others

00:38:52

Speaker 1: being kind of the other fellow in the little things of life as well as the big things.

00:38:58

Speaker 2: Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463 You can reach us on social media, on twitter. We are at Emily Post inst on instagram, we are at Emily Post Institute

00:39:18

Speaker 2: and on facebook were awesome etiquette.

00:39:20

Speaker 2: Just remember use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the show.

00:39:27

Speaker 2: Mm

00:39:29

Speaker 1: If you're digging awesome etiquette, please consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette. You'll get an ad free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content plus you'll feel great knowing that you helped keep awesome etiquette on the air

00:39:46

Speaker 1: and to those of you who are already sustaining members. Thank you so much for your support.

00:39:51

Speaker 2: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer in the topics we cover and today we hear a voice mail from Amy

00:40:00

Speaker 1: Hi lizzie and Dance. I just wanted to call with some feedback on episode 3 33 for Covid Bride. I attended a wonderful wedding this past weekend

00:40:10

Speaker 1: where the bride sent out, save the dates very early on and then do Makovich and make some adjustments.

00:40:17

Speaker 1: So when she sent out her final invitations,

00:40:20

Speaker 1: she sent some indications to be in person to a select group of people

00:40:25

Speaker 1: meeting the requirements of the menu for social distancing purposes. And then she sent out invitations to the rest of us

00:40:33

Speaker 1: that contained a link to attend the wedding virtually. And while it wasn't an ideal situation, it was

00:40:41

Speaker 1: beautiful to be able to hand. And I think everybody has got the other invitations

00:40:46

Speaker 1: for virtual attendance,

00:40:47

Speaker 1: understood the reason why, and I called and talked to the mom and she said this was what they decided to do. But anyway, Covid Bride may want to consider something like that for an alternative to sending out invitations and

00:41:00

Speaker 1: the invitation for the ones that were virtual also had a very formal doubt from the bride and the groom,

00:41:06

Speaker 1: just thanking everyone explaining how they made their decision, asking them for their prayers over their marriage. It was very sweet and very lonely. So good luck coming bride and thank you as easy And for your podcast

00:41:18

Speaker 1: dan. I always love it when our audience members are able to support and encourage each other and say, hey, that idea you're thinking of. That worked. I was on the other side of it and it felt okay. You know, it's sharing those perspectives.

00:41:32

Speaker 2: It is so nice to hear. Yeah, it really is. Not. Everyone's out there looking for the mistake. There are a lot of people who are

00:41:39

Speaker 2: going to participate and really enjoy.

00:41:41

Speaker 1: Thank you so much for the feedback amy

00:41:46

Speaker 1: and thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please keep them coming. You can send your feedback or update two awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com or leave us a voicemail or a text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463

00:42:08

Speaker 1: mm.

00:42:09

Speaker 1: It's time for our post script segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette and today we're going to talk about an ancient term from our best netiquette, shockingly. This is still the most searched term for etiquette online and while we've been online for years,

00:42:26

Speaker 1: it's never a bad idea to brush up on what constitutes good behavior online dan.

00:42:30

Speaker 1: What are our tips for? Netiquette?

00:42:33

Speaker 2: And I know that it is a painful thing for you to say that worse than

00:42:37

Speaker 1: it hurts my

00:42:38

Speaker 2: mouth. I know, I know just like a little too silly in some

00:42:43

Speaker 1: ways. It's almost like saying did you get my electronic mail? Keep going.

00:42:49

Speaker 2: I understand. And by way of explanation we have a very good web team at Emily Post and they informed us that an article titled Netiquette would be a really good idea for our website that it is content that people expect from us. And it would um

00:43:02

Speaker 2: fulfill a lot of google expectations out there if we were to have that content

00:43:07

Speaker 2: and turned out to be sort of a good call to action. We didn't have an article on Emily Post dot com that was general advice about behavior online. And we have a book about digital manners, but it is more than or about 10 years old. At this point you talk about ancient lizzie boast.

00:43:23

Speaker 1: Wait, let's let's just be realistic, anytime you put out a book with the word digital in it anywhere, it's immediately like most books are dated once they actually arrive on the scene,

00:43:34

Speaker 1: anything with the word digital, and it is like extra dated as soon as it comes up. So it's like, it's like a battle you can't win no matter what

00:43:42

Speaker 2: into that world. We weighed um Emily Post didn't have a broad statement about online behaviour. And an article titled Netiquette on Emily Post dot com

00:43:52

Speaker 2: had to be approached from that perspective. So we started off

00:43:55

Speaker 2: with the first tip that will be very familiar to the awesome etiquette audience. And it's about conducting yourself with consideration and respect. Uh and the obvious idea is that just because you're in a space that can feel anonymous, that can feel protected by distance, that you're still responsible for what you do there and you're responsible for conducting yourself with awareness of others and a recognition of their worth.

00:44:20

Speaker 1: We used to describe it as their while, it can feel like there's an electronic brick wall between you. It really isn't. There's they're real like you just said, there's real people on the other side of this and it's always important to keep that consideration and respect for

00:44:36

Speaker 1: for them, just simply as other human beings existing in this space with us and that that will always be a mark of good etiquette online.

00:44:43

Speaker 2: And why does it matter? It matters because it's a public space that we all share

00:44:47

Speaker 2: and were responsible for how we shape that public space together and our conduct is what does it,

00:44:53

Speaker 2: Which kind of leads us to tip number two, which is about being kind.

00:44:58

Speaker 2: So, if you're thinking of others and you're recognizing their worth and value, ultimately making attempt to just be nice is an important next step that you make your goodwill explicit in terms of how you treat other people. It sounds like really simple advice. It sounds like really basic advice for people that listen to this show. It probably comes very naturally

00:45:20

Speaker 2: and

00:45:21

Speaker 2: when we're contributing to that larger discourse about what's appropriate in these spaces, it's really important to say,

00:45:28

Speaker 2: tip three

00:45:29

Speaker 2: involves filtering what you're sharing, showing

00:45:33

Speaker 2: uh some discretion in terms of what you share, when we have the option to live our lives so publicly. Is one way to think about that.

00:45:43

Speaker 2: Another way to think about that is that what we do in these online spaces is often public and permanent, and

00:45:49

Speaker 2: that there are things that you might say or do that you wouldn't anticipate being part of the public record or the public space for public discourse 10, 15, 20 years later, I know that there are times in my life when the internet wasn't as big a deal and I don't mind those times in my life just being my memories.

00:46:09

Speaker 2: But for people that are living in the world today,

00:46:12

Speaker 2: there is a collective memory that's accruing and really thinking about what you share on that space is an important part of participating. Well, in a way you can feel good about.

00:46:20

Speaker 1: You know, sometimes I feel like it can be really overwhelming to think about how vast our our world together online is. And this gives me a sense of agency

00:46:29

Speaker 1: when I think about filtering what I share like that, that's one way I can really take back some kind of control or ownership over myself

00:46:37

Speaker 2: as we continue down the list. And there are only eight of these, I'll warn you ahead of time. The advice gets more specific. And by number four, we're talking about accountability in terms of what you share. So the tip is to check your sources. But

00:46:52

Speaker 2: the idea is that in a world of instant impressions and a sea of information that we're all responsible for sorting and filtering and categorizing in ways to figure out what's significant to us important to us, relevant to us,

00:47:08

Speaker 2: Not contributing to uh flow of bad information is an emerging courtesy. So not sharing bad information and not asking for people's attention in ways that are distracting our courtesies that are emerging really quickly in today's online world

00:47:25

Speaker 1: dan. This next one that we've got listed I really liked because when I first think of online etiquette and how I'm behaving in these roles, this is not at all what I think of, but when I encounter it as a user in a frustrating way, I really wish more people would do this one. What is number five?

00:47:43

Speaker 2: And isn't that so often the way courtesy works, it

00:47:46

Speaker 1: really is

00:47:47

Speaker 2: keep your information as up to date as possible. Okay, this is easy advice to see the importance for for businesses. Obviously you want people to find you, you want people to reach you and contact you. Um you also want them to have an accurate impression about you for individuals in business that's often about linkedin,

00:48:06

Speaker 2: where

00:48:08

Speaker 2: Maybe that's that linked in profile you set up when you were looking for a job coming out of college, it hasn't been as important to you for 10, 15 years now and it's essentially like an old business card that's circulating.

00:48:20

Speaker 1: Um

00:48:21

Speaker 2: So it's both a professional concern, but there are definitely ways that this is applicable to social life as well. It's it's not something that's likely to offend or bother someone, but it might make someone's life a little easier and they might appreciate that number six is a risky topic to even mention, but it involves internet comment section.

00:48:40

Speaker 1: This is we're going down the rabbit hole. This is the place where we find all the trolls and everything. It's like this internet comment etiquette is a beast.

00:48:49

Speaker 2: It really is. And you just mentioned, I think the one particular piece of etiquette that is specific to the online world in a way that's different from the advice I generally give about conversations, which is how I think of comment threads online, um and that's that you don't feed the trolls

00:49:05

Speaker 2: ultimately, if there's something really disruptive that's going on often times the intent is to be disruptive and the more attention that you give it,

00:49:12

Speaker 2: the more satisfying it is for the person who's doing it so often times the most effective community strategy for responding to that kind of behavior is to ignore it beyond that internet comment etiquette is about being aware of the conversation that you're participating and then proceeding with

00:49:30

Speaker 2: awareness. And sometimes that involves listening a little bit or keeping an eye on something before you jump. In. Other times, you're the person initiating and you're going to be part of setting and establishing tone, it's going to vary, but

00:49:42

Speaker 2: having an awareness that it is public and that is something you're engaged in with other people is the place to start with courtesy.

00:49:49

Speaker 1: For me on this one, I see a lot of the issue of like hijacking someone's thread or conversation, whether you're doing it to promote something of yourself or whether you're sort of unaware and taking the conversation to a different realm.

00:50:05

Speaker 1: I it's just something that I find really noticeable. Like even on instagram when I go and read the comments under a photo and a caption and then all of a sudden there's one sticking out whether it's blatant where it's like,

00:50:18

Speaker 1: hey, visit my site for this kind of advice or something like that. You know what I mean? Or whether it's just more like

00:50:27

Speaker 1: someone who, whatever it is that you just posted sparked a completely different thought for them and they decided to share it here. So it doesn't really apply. But it was inspired by the original. Like both of them are just incredibly noticeable when you're reading like a chain of comments and something.

00:50:43

Speaker 2: It could sound like frivolous advice and it's not.

00:50:47

Speaker 2: The internet is

00:50:47

Speaker 2: a really important place where people are coming together and making connections, friends,

00:50:54

Speaker 2: family, new love, all of it. And participating well in those spaces is is really important. Number seven is another example of the importance in our lives that is shifting into that online space. And that isn't exactly grammatically correct. But I think it communicates. The point number seven is about online etiquette for students.

00:51:14

Speaker 1: Mm

00:51:15

Speaker 2: And it's a series of smaller tips and pieces of advice. Things like ask targeted questions. Keep your messaging just impeccably uh clean in case any of it gets public. Pay attention to how you give and receive criticism. Stay focused on relevant topics when you're in virtual spaces with other people. It helps get work done.

00:51:39

Speaker 2: And don't forget your basic etiquette, like thanking people for help and for participating when they have

00:51:44

Speaker 1: two. Amazing how those Ps and Qs, those magic words make a difference even when they're typed.

00:51:50

Speaker 2: Absolutely. And the final piece of advice that we give is to consider your tone. And that is the

00:51:56

Speaker 2: polite ist way that I could think of to offer. The advice that lizzie gave us in a post script recently from Emily Post,

00:52:03

Speaker 2: where Emily advised, avoiding sarcastic, cynical negative attitudes and watching yourself. And if you didn't have anything nice to say, maybe not saying anything at all. And the message behind our final tip is that particularly with the written word,

00:52:20

Speaker 2: that can be hard to interpret someone's tone or intent, You just have the information, you just have what they said, the content of it.

00:52:27

Speaker 2: And it can be hard to write funny. It can be hard to be heard the way you intend to be heard with that little information. Just that that that text exchange. So

00:52:39

Speaker 2: there are things that you can do to add a positive tone to how you participate online. If you're having a positive thought, share it. If you're thinking something good, say it explicitly and its advice that we give on the show in other context all the time, but give it a try online. If

00:52:57

Speaker 2: a billion people could just do one kind thing a day each day it would transform the world and that's possible in these online spaces. So it can sound Polyana but that Emily post approach and advice I think can really work in the public space that we all share that digital space as well.

00:53:13

Speaker 1: It really is up to us.

00:53:15

Speaker 2: It really is.

00:53:17

Speaker 1: If your manners aren't the everyday, regular part of you when special occasions do come up, you may be uncertain

00:53:24

Speaker 1: not show up to advantage and sometimes your lack of assurance results in the embarrassment of doing the wrong thing.

00:53:41

Speaker 1: We like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world and that can come in so many forms. Today we have a salute from lisa.

00:53:52

Speaker 1: I would like to submit a salute for my niece Julia, although she is now an accomplished adult and MD exclamation point, it's still hard to think of her as a grown up Over the years, I have sent her cards sometimes with small gifts to cheer her up as she was living and studying far from home.

00:54:10

Speaker 1: Never once has she failed to acknowledge when she received something, even if it was just a happy easter card, I get a text message thanking me for thinking of her. Sometimes that text sparks a conversation. Other times I reply, you're welcome and that's the end. But it never fails to put a smile on my face when she lets me know I have brightened her day salute Julia

00:54:34

Speaker 1: lisa P. S. Keep up the great work on the podcast.

00:54:37

Speaker 2: Oh lisa salute to you for sharing this salute.

00:54:40

Speaker 2: I wish I knew Julia. She sounds like one of those people that um accomplishes these things and makes it all feel and seem easy to the people around her and that really is just inspiring lee good etiquette. Thank you so much for sharing

00:54:57

Speaker 1: and thank you for listening

00:55:00

Speaker 2: and thank you to everyone who sent us something and everyone who supports us on Patreon.

00:55:04

Speaker 1: Please connect with us and share this show with friends, family and co workers. And if you like to on social media as

00:55:10

Speaker 2: well, you can send us your next question feedback or salute by email to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a message or text at 2858 kind. That's 828585463

00:55:24

Speaker 2: on twitter. We are at Emily Post install on instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette and the Emily Post Institute. Please

00:55:33

Speaker 1: consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette.

00:55:38

Speaker 1: You can also subscribe to the ads version of our show on Spotify or your favorite podcast app and please consider leaving as a review.

00:55:46

Speaker 1: It helps our show ranking, which helps more people find awesome etiquette.

00:55:50

Speaker 2: Our show is edited by chris Albertine. An assistant produced by Brigitte Dowd.

00:55:54

Speaker 1: Thanks

00:56:01

Speaker 1: Yeah.