Episode 348 - Verifing Vaccines
In this episode of Awesome Etiquette
Welcome to Awesome Etiquette, where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. On today’s show we take your questions on wearing white to weddings, expensive bachelorette parties, verifying vaccine information for events, and people going through your things when they visit your home. For Awesome Etiquette Sustaining members our question is about your boss following you on Instagram. Plus your most excellent feedback, etiquette salute and postscript on ethics and moral principles.
Speaker 1: maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social. Could you see that's old fashioned,
Speaker 1: watch how busy post and then post to act as host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person. Real friendliness.
Speaker 1: Mhm.
Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to awesome etiquette where
Speaker 2: we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty.
Speaker 1: On today's show, we take your questions on wearing white to weddings, expensive bachelorette parties, verifying vaccine information for events and people going through your things when they visit your home
Speaker 2: for awesome etiquette sustaining members. Our question of the week is about your boss following
Speaker 1: you on instagram plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a postscript on etiquette and ethics. All
Speaker 2: that's coming up,
Speaker 1: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute.
Speaker 2: I'm lizzie Post
Speaker 1: and I'm dan Post sending,
Speaker 2: hey guys,
Speaker 1: how's it going?
Speaker 2: Oh you know, just create an awkward moments in the neighborhood lately. Really, really, really tell, you know how like you often or I shouldn't say often, but on occasion you've referred to me as a sweet heart,
Speaker 2: a person of a kind heart and I've always really appreciated that sometimes other people think that's really awkward.
Speaker 1: So
Speaker 1: it sounds really good. It's
Speaker 2: been raining a lot here and it just like, I know I get caught without an umbrella often. I kind of don't care, I'm a fan of the rain, but
Speaker 2: very kindly. My brother in law has recently trimmed some of the bows that have overgrown in front of my, my front window
Speaker 2: and having done so I can see the street, I could see the sidewalk so much better
Speaker 2: and it was like, it was raining not down pouring, okay? Not down pouring, but it was raining. And I see this woman walked by
Speaker 2: and she's in you know, nice little flat shoes and a cute floral skirt and a nice button down shirt. And she had a very nice handbag by that. That's just not a scene you typically see in my neighborhood
Speaker 2: and it's like people in their casual there in like workout clothes and jeans, like
Speaker 1: going for a run, working on. Like
Speaker 2: she looked nice and like she was trying to get somewhere
Speaker 2: and it's raining and she has nothing, nothing. She's, you know, can't cover her head with anything, nothing. And she wasn't even wearing like a rain jacket
Speaker 2: And I was like in my moment of probably loneliness, I was sitting there and going, I've got like 10 of those little travel umbrellas, you know the little ones that can almost like fit in a purse or bag or something like
Speaker 1: That? Not only do I know, but I have a stack of them because it seems like every time we go to New York it rains and I buy a new one for $5 when I'm running around and bring it totally. And now they're all stacked up in the garage.
Speaker 2: No ex exactly. I try to stash him in the car, my bags. I know. I still have one in each trunk. Yeah. Yeah. And I still have a bunch of them. So I'm like,
Speaker 2: forget it. I'm like, just get, go, go run after this woman and give her an umbrella. And sure enough I did and she looked at me like I was nuts. Like she, she totally refused. My umbrella was like, I mean we just show.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, she, we kept our six ft difference and I was like, excuse me, excuse me? And I didn't say excuse me ma'am
Speaker 2: Or miss. I just, I was pretty sure this was a woman, but I didn't want to assume. I just said like, excuse me, excuse me. I was like, I have like 10 of these at home. I saw you walking by dressed, nice. I figured you might want it. I don't need it back.
Speaker 2: She was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, thank you. That's silly. That's ridiculous. No, no, no, no, no, I'm fine, I'm fine. And like, she doesn't even stop to talk to me. She's like bolting the other direction.
Speaker 2: Good deeds. Just, just sometimes they just don't, it just doesn't land. And I know we've had listeners say I write thank you notes. Some people think I'm silly or you know, I'm too old fashioned or something. And I I have those moments too dear listener friends. I have those moments
Speaker 1: to
Speaker 2: thank you for
Speaker 1: sharing and I've got this image in my head now of this person walking away and you standing there in the rain holding an umbrella?
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm really hoping that you opened it up and put it over yourself to walk now inside. Of course I didn't,
Speaker 2: but I did feel really, really, really stupid and I had to I had to work through that for a moment. I was like, wow, am I just like, really out of touch as the pandemic and like the isolation, like put me in this place where
Speaker 2: like, I don't understand how to interact with people anymore. I've had my moment guys, I've had my moments,
Speaker 1: well I'm glad you shared, and I'm also glad you tried. I you know, really, you don't
Speaker 2: think it was weird or scary? I mean if someone was chasing me down, I might be a little like uh you
Speaker 1: know, it might have caught her off guard
Speaker 2: and I think it
Speaker 1: did. You know, maybe, you know, five steps down the sidewalk. She's thinking to herself, that was a really nice offer.
Speaker 1: You know, you never know. And maybe I couldn't, you know, I couldn't quite bring myself to accept the help and I am
Speaker 1: in that category that often finds it difficult to accept help.
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, this is you.
Speaker 1: And that doesn't
Speaker 1: oftentimes that doesn't mean I didn't appreciate the offer. So who knows? Maybe maybe we can take that
Speaker 2: with, that's the sunny side of the street.
Speaker 1: I had a parallel, I was handing out umbrellas at a like a, it was like an outdoor walk for kids that's organized by a community group here in Duxbury.
Speaker 1: And I showed up in the morning and you meet the other parents. Then you hike around and you know, look at the old civilian Conservation Corps camp by the dam at the reservoir. That was our activity that day and it was a rainy day and we're gonna be walking around in the woods on these little trails. And I had several of those umbrellas you described in the trunk of my car
Speaker 1: and I was just distributing the other parents and I was like santa claus. People were just delighted. But where, where we ran into the etiquette hiccup was towards the end of the walk and Nisha's patients was running out and it was wet and rainy and kind of cold. So we ended up
Speaker 1: sort of towards the end of the activity being in that first wave that got to their cars and left. And I was contacted by these parents wanting to return the umbrellas and I was found myself in that delightful position of saying, just hang on to that. You know, you don't need to keep it in your drunk and give it to someone
Speaker 2: else totally, totally. Also so nice to, to have that feeling of being like don't worry about it on, you know, on the flip side sometimes when you lend things out it's like it's, it's, you're really like I was happy to lend it, but I also really need it back but good on those parents to at least make the offer. I feel like there's a little like it's not host guest dance but there's a little, you know, like person, person dance going on there like
Speaker 1: sure.
Speaker 1: And I mean I don't also want to pass off or junk onto people either. I think someone should be comfortable saying no, that's quite all right. Or um
Speaker 1: I'm really not going to keep this if you want it back. And I'm sitting there thinking to
Speaker 2: myself, let's keep reusing it, let's keep passing it along totally
Speaker 1: lizzie post. I don't want to leave this intro without saying take heart. I have a feeling that that little moment wasn't quite as awkward as maybe it felt on your side of things.
Speaker 2: Okay, well I will trust that. Do you think we should get to some questions and help some other people? Hopefully get through some awkward moments?
Speaker 1: Let's do it.
Speaker 1: Mhm
Speaker 2: Yeah,
Speaker 2: awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions. You can email them to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. Leave a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463 Or reach us on social media on twitter. We're at Emily post inst on instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute
Speaker 2: and on facebook were awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media posts so that we know you want your question on the show.
Speaker 1: Our first question this week is about white at a wedding.
Speaker 1: Hello, lizzie and dan, I would love to hear your thoughts on wedding guest attire that contains white or light pastels. For example, a dress with a floral print on a white background,
Speaker 1: more of a cocktail style that would not be mistaken for a bridal gown.
Speaker 1: Can guests feel confident about wearing dresses that contain large amounts of white or a light color
Speaker 1: or what advice would you give on this topic? Thank you, anonymous.
Speaker 2: Anonymous. It's a great question. I think the dress you describe would be fine and I think that for a lot of people, as long as it's in the cocktail range and isn't just white, that
Speaker 2: they feel it's, it's safe enough to go for that, that it won't have any kind of competition or distraction from the bride if there's a bride at the wedding and I do think that it's slightly dicey territory that you may want to think about this person getting married and what you know of them. You know, you apply that old platinum rule because you you don't want to step on any toes. I will say though that the, the type of dress you're describing where it's a cocktail dress, it has a white background and some kind of a floral print on it, there really shouldn't be any problem with that. I have a harder time dan, and I've seen this many times
Speaker 2: where either a very young person wears a white dress to a wedding even though it's short,
Speaker 2: but it is all white. And I, for me, that felt like, I mean,
Speaker 2: granted, I'm totally admitting to a moment of judgment on a total stranger like in our podcast, but okay. Okay. Okay. I've had
Speaker 1: granted, Yeah,
Speaker 2: thanks. I have that. I've had that moment where I've been sitting at the church and I see people walk in and I think, ooh, I wouldn't have, I wouldn't let my kid wear that to a wedding,
Speaker 2: but it was a white dress that was, you know, cocktail length, but it did not have flowers or anything on it. Any form of pastel I think is fine, especially if it's, it's really leaning more towards the color and less towards the white, but the one that gets me and that I still see really frequently are like beige dresses and I don't know why, but for some reason, some shades of beige can be so close to white that they can really look more like cream
Speaker 2: and it like that. I think it's a solid, solid dress, it might be cocktail style, but without anything breaking it up and it being just an off white color, it feels a little much. I don't get that same feeling though when I see a very pale lavender dress or very pale sky blue dress, you know what I mean? So it's,
Speaker 2: this is like super, super subjective question. I'm rambling like crazy on it dan. What do you what do you think?
Speaker 1: I don't think you are. I think that you're getting down into some details that I'm appreciating hearing. And as soon as you mentioned a beige dress, I started the picture that the bridal gowns that are
Speaker 1: like sort of a satin, champagne, that is an off way. And I started to say to myself, you know, that's actually a really good tip on something that might
Speaker 1: really violate the spirit of the etiquette guideline, which is that you don't distract from the bride or with your attire, you don't distract from the couple. And if you're talking about dresses oftentimes that's the bride.
Speaker 1: Um, and, and then that can come with just confusion. You look too much like them. It can unbalance photos if someone is centered in pictures and all of a sudden there's, you know, someone to tear off who looks like the centered figure somehow. So I appreciated that detail and it got me thinking also about the pastels that
Speaker 1: more and more weddings that
Speaker 1: I personally attend of colored themes. So thinking about the bridal, the bridal party or the, what the wedding colors are um is just a consideration that adds another layer to think about in terms of whether or not you would compete with or distract from most importantly, the couple or maybe even more generally the bridal party.
Speaker 2: So wait, do you mean you're being invited to weddings where they suggest like we would love for our guests to dress in blue and yellow, the colours of our wedding or something like that. Do they say that
Speaker 1: I haven't seen a suggestion like that, but for example, pooch in my wedding was like an orange and fuchsia. Yes, color palette. And
Speaker 1: a lot of the decisions about what we were wearing were
Speaker 1: factored into that. And um, I could see a wedding that was sort of a purple or lavender everywhere. That lavender dress that you describe
Speaker 1: might fit perfectly or might be more competitive and it just might be something to think about as we get down into the details of your
Speaker 2: saying. You don't mean when people are asking you to wear a specific color to a wedding, you mean more paying attention to the colours of the wedding and kind of avoiding those
Speaker 2: for the most part, so that you're not playing
Speaker 1: intelligently with
Speaker 2: them. You know that's true too. That's true too. There are, I know there are some folks who have found it helpful when someone lists the what the attendants are, where what color's the attendants are wearing so that they don't so guests don't show up, but it doesn't,
Speaker 2: it doesn't serve etiquette well to say the bridal party is wearing you know, blush and grey like and then and say something like and you should therefore not be like, you know what I mean, like that's not the way to go about trying to make that known.
Speaker 2: Instead. You might make a note on your wedding website of something like, you know,
Speaker 2: our bridal attendants will be in the following colors if that's helpful for you as you choose, you know your attire and then let let people decide which way the help goes in dressing like them are far away. Um
Speaker 2: But no I I do I really do think that anonymous is dress that it sounds like a white cocktail dress that just has a beautiful flowered pattern on it is perfectly appropriate. And I've certainly seen many people of all ages where something similar to a lot of weddings and be fine
Speaker 1: anonymous. We hope that this answer helps that we haven't given you too much to think about and that you enjoy the wedding
Speaker 2: and finally we turn the spotlight on the bride's own choice,
Speaker 2: exquisite white crepe, lavishly trimmed with lace. What could be more beautiful or more appropriate under her going away dress for a romantic honeymoon
Speaker 2: dan, I'm going to quiz you with this next one. It's titled Bachelorette Budget. Hi lizzie and dan new listener here and loving the podcast so far. It. A month ago I was asked to be a personal attendant for my high school friends wedding in july and of course I said yes as I love weddings and helping out my friends.
Speaker 2: Her sister is the maid of honor and I have met her briefly in the past
Speaker 2: This past week, her sister began sending out details for the Bachelorette Party on May 13.
Speaker 2: She had shared with us to ideas prior, but nothing concrete
Speaker 2: this week. She sends out details on the boat cruise she had planned without including the cost.
Speaker 2: I inquired about the cost and she provided it adding that she could make accommodations or shift plans if this option was too expensive.
Speaker 2: As I am in three weddings this year and invited to five. My budget is tight. I sent her a message saying that I was not comfortable with the cost and that may be the second idea she had originally suggested would be more affordable for me as well as would be more time flexible for two of the other party members who have late shifts at the hospital.
Speaker 2: The bride's sister then advised me that I could reach out to her
Speaker 2: or the bride's mom if I needed to subsidize the bachelorette party which I am also uncomfortable doing.
Speaker 2: The bride is the most understanding person in the world and I know she would not be upset if I declined the invitation.
Speaker 2: How do I decline the invitation to the Bachelorette party without offending the bride's sister or her mother. Thank you anonymous.
Speaker 1: Anonymous. This is a tough situation. And before we get into it, I just want to say welcome to the show. It's so good to hear from a new listener. I'm so glad that you found us
Speaker 1: so lizzie post. You chose to quiz me with a tough one. I
Speaker 2: know. Is this
Speaker 1: a tough one?
Speaker 1: I'm going to start off with the place I often start off with when I'm faced with something that feels awkward or difficult for me and I think about what my bottom lines are and
Speaker 1: for me, the the absolute bottom line here is that um you can't participate in things that you can't afford. It's not good for you and it's not good for the other people. And if that ends up being the situation here,
Speaker 1: it is okay for you to decline because you can't afford it. In fact, it's important that you do that, that you don't take on more than you can afford. Um and that you do that as well as you possibly can. Having already indicated that you'd like to be a part of it. And
Speaker 1: to me, the how of that is really important if that's the route that it goes and that means that you do it as soon as possible. Um and that you do it with an acknowledgement that you wish you didn't have to. That it is because it's a cost question for you and that you're sorry that you can't participate and that you have to back out at this point. And I think
Speaker 1: to me that's the foundation that I like to stand on knowing that
Speaker 1: if I can't work out something else
Speaker 1: that's what's required of me and I will do it the best I can.
Speaker 1: How am I doing so far?
Speaker 2: You're doing really good with our standard answer but this one has a funky twist anonymous. Yeah
Speaker 1: right about this too. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So our question Askar has done
Speaker 2: the good thing right of reaching back out and saying this would be tough for me. Can we lean into some of those accommodations or adjustments
Speaker 2: that you that you mentioned?
Speaker 2: But the response back isn't okay, we'll make the adjustments and not do the boat cruise. It's instead it seems like the bride's sister leans more into,
Speaker 2: we could help accommodate you when she says
Speaker 2: you could reach out to her and the way I read this was that you could reach out to her and then there's a slash the bride's mom. So you could either reach out to me, the sister or my mother. The bride's mom if you need to subsidize the bachelorette party.
Speaker 2: On the one hand, I'm like going, come on sister, like, like our question, Nascar has already said that she can't afford this, like don't make her make another ask of having to say she can't afford it, you know, by reaching out and I think if that part of the subsidizing is coming from the sister, which is how I had read this, then I think just the
Speaker 2: I at least you listener would feel comfortable leaning into it and saying, boy, you know, if you really, if you really can help subsidize it, that would be great. You know, I've got these other weddings and everything and it's just been so tough and I would love to be there, but if you can, that would be great and just lean into that,
Speaker 2: I would have a harder time restarting a new conversation about subsidizing it from the mother, you know what I mean? It's like to me the way it was all set up for our listener, it felt like there was this like
Speaker 2: second round of having to announce, I can't afford this, can you help me out? Which I can understand, not feeling that comfortable doing that, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Absolutely. In fact the ask to ask again, feel so awkward to me. I couldn't even read it as that I read,
Speaker 1: I read the slash between the her and brides mother as aunt or as because just the idea that I would say to someone, I really can't afford this, could we go with the other option? They're like, oh no, this is what we're doing and if you want me to help, ask me again, it's my mom chris
Speaker 2: that,
Speaker 1: but but whereas I could understand the ask, my mom asked my and the bride's mom because she's the one who's frankly going to subsidize me and this whole thing or whatever and just I don't want to ask her for you or you know her well enough, you could ask her. I mean, to me that's a it's still a really awkward request to get from someone who's organizing a party.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that
Speaker 1: necessarily. And I would have to say that too. I think the sister, I would say I really can't afford it and I don't feel comfortable calling so and so to ask for that. So I'm going to have to decline if that was what it was and if it was the other, if it was you, you have to ask me again or me and the mother again. I would,
Speaker 1: I think I would bite my lip and I'd ask again because there's no way that I can correct that in her
Speaker 2: correct? No, you're right, You right.
Speaker 1: And my participation is dependent on responding with as much grace and poise as I possibly can to a really awkward request.
Speaker 2: No, I think you're right. And the very simple language of, you know, oh, I wouldn't feel comfortable accepting financial help for this, so I will have to respectfully decline is totally perfectly fine from an etiquette standpoint, but I just I can't leave this question dan without encouraging our listener to lean into that sisters offer. I can picture being
Speaker 2: the sister and I would have I would have been more clear, I would have made it easier on the listener,
Speaker 2: but I honestly think the sister is really excited about what she's planned and she kind of wants to get you all there no matter what.
Speaker 2: And it sounds to me like she's saying we can help, we can make this work. But it sounds like her first offer of let's change the plan if it's not working, maybe wasn't quite as genuine or maybe came at a time when plans weren't as set in motion
Speaker 2: as kind of what she is now advising you to do, which is, oh, if you, if you can't afford it, just like reach out to us, you know, call my mom, it'll be fine, she'll subsidize it.
Speaker 2: I would also have been the person to say, oh, you know what my mom offered to help for, for folks who weren't going to be able to afford it. And so let me just, I'll talk to her about it and don't worry. But definitely come. You know, like I wish the most, I so wish you were
Speaker 1: organizing this party.
Speaker 2: I wish that's what this other person had done for you. Dear listener,
Speaker 1: I also love the spirit that you're thinking about this in. I think it is so, so important for
Speaker 1: striking the right tone. Moving forward
Speaker 2: anonymous. No matter how this works out, we do have confidence that it can work out well and we hope you have a fabulous time at this wedding and all the other weddings that you are attending and helping out with this summer.
Speaker 1: I'm on a boat. I'm on a boat. Is
Speaker 2: that really how the song goes? Because
Speaker 1: I don't think exactly, but it will serve our purposes
Speaker 2: today.
Speaker 2: Wouldn't it be wonderful to be a bride again?
Speaker 2: Mhm
Speaker 2: Yeah,
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: Our next question is about vaccine verification.
Speaker 1: Hi lizzie and dan, Thank you so much for all the advice you've given to those trying to plan safe and celebratory weddings during a pandemic. With guidelines constantly changing it can feel like a moving target.
Speaker 1: That being said, my fiance and I are going forward with our wedding late this summer.
Speaker 1: We need to know the vaccination status of our guests. If we want to invite everyone where we live, fully vaccinated persons do not count toward capacity constraints, meaning a 10 person limit is only for unvaccinated guests.
Speaker 1: We would also need people to bring vaccination proof or a negative test. I do think 95 will be, but we are required to verify
Speaker 1: what do you think is the most courteous way to communicate these expectations to our guests and obtain this information.
Speaker 1: One idea I had was to include an extra enclosure card with a neatly worded memo, prompting them to let us know their status explaining the current regulations in our city and that knowing who was vaccinated will allow us to celebrate with everyone we love while also ensuring everyone's safety and demonstrate to our venue that we are in compliance.
Speaker 1: Another idea was to put this information on our wedding website so that it could be updated. If regulations change, one friend suggested, an efficient way would be to ask an additional question with the online R. S. V. P.
Speaker 1: Another suggested that we should do all these things and that over communication in this case is probably prudent.
Speaker 1: My parents feel that it would be better to reach out to every guest individually. They feel that some people may be offended by the question or feel that if they aren't vaccinated for whatever reason they are unwelcome to attend
Speaker 1: or that fixating on the rules will inhibit the joy of the celebrating. This is obviously a more time consuming approach.
Speaker 1: In any case we think people will feel most comfortable when they know what to expect, but we want to balance the logistical necessities and preserve the feeling that these are welcomed and cherished guests.
Speaker 1: I understand this is a difficult and complicated question, but I appreciate any thoughts you might have. Thank you so much anonymous.
Speaker 2: Oh, anonymous. It is a complicated question, but I actually don't think it's that difficult.
Speaker 2: I feel and dan correct move. I'm wrong. I feel like this is a do um all answer like this is a like, I think you should call folks, especially the folks who might have a harder time understanding this or who might feel a little uncertain if they just received
Speaker 2: the enclosure. If they just saw the thing on the wedding website or the R. S. V. P. Added question.
Speaker 2: I think calling first allows for folks to understand there's something extra in this wedding. you know, invitation with enclosures that's coming, that is different because of the year and the regulations were under. And I think that that's worth while. It'll it'll soften the impact of of the written thing
Speaker 2: being the first way that people hear about this and
Speaker 2: you can use all of your beautiful tone and and words to convey to them what you really want to convey, which is we want you to come. And even if your unvaccinated, like there's a certain amount of people we can have that run by, like, you know, there's there's ways to work within this a little bit.
Speaker 2: I think what is hard is if you end up in that situation where the maximum amount of unvaccinated people is beyond, like if, if your guest list has more unvaccinated people then can be allowed at the venue. And that I think is the one that's the one place where I see a like a crux happening and issue happening. But I love the idea of the extra question on the R. S. V. P. I love the idea of putting on the wedding website. I love the idea of putting a separate enclosure, not on the invitation, a separate enclosure with the invitation.
Speaker 2: That explains clearly the parameters that you're working around. That expresses how much you want everyone to be able to be there and be there safely so that you can all focus, as dan said on the celebrating. I loved that line because um but I think doing everything
Speaker 2: would really really help. And I think that those those phone calls letting people know that this is one of the restrictions or measures that you're up against as you try to organize this beautiful
Speaker 2: cherished event would help. I think it would help soften the blow. It's not a blow. I shouldn't describe it as a blow because it should soften the unexpected enclosure. I'm
Speaker 1: hearing my mother's voice,
Speaker 2: no
Speaker 1: Cindy post setting. Had been listening to an episode of this podcast where we were talking about asking people about vaccination status
Speaker 1: and she felt compelled to leave her house and walk
Speaker 1: Up the hill all 500 ft to my front door where we were exchanging some male or something. But she offered the thought that um,
Speaker 1: from her perspective, from a traditional etiquette perspective, people's health information
Speaker 1: was always considered some of the most private information that um, it is protected by privacy laws. And
Speaker 1: she just wanted to emphasize to me how different the advice that it was okay to ask people about health condition was than the advice that Emily Post of the Emily Post Institute would have given even
Speaker 1: Three years ago, two years, 16 months ago. And we had a really good discussion where I talked with her about the reality on the ground now in public health and the heart of etiquette being about
Speaker 1: what's practical and what's possible. And when you have something like a venue that has a hard
Speaker 1: limit on participation depending on the vaccination status of guests. That's a hard limit. It's something that you can communicate to someone else but you can't change it and it becomes the ground that we're operating on and like you, I think that it's a really good idea in a
Speaker 1: time and place where we do have to make that big a change
Speaker 1: that you make every effort that you possibly can. That how you do, it becomes so important. And like you, I like every one of these options and they get better and better as you stack them up, that you get that personal contact that you have the option to change the information online if conditions change that, that print out that someone gets is something they can hold onto if they're not a big wedding website user, if they hold on to that invitation and that becomes their connection to the event
Speaker 1: like you, I think this is one of those cases where it's probably worth that effort and all of the efforts that I hear described frankly sound really good. I
Speaker 2: think so too. I think so too. I think it's also not a bad idea, especially on the wedding website and on the well worded, well worded enclosure
Speaker 2: to also state clearly what fully vaccinated is
Speaker 2: is that one shot? Is that two shots? Is it if it's the J and J vaccine, is it just the one shot done? And then the two weeks after, you know, like is it the period after like really make sure that you're clear about what's considered fully vaccinated
Speaker 2: even though a lot of states are making it really clear what is and what isn't? I think people can sometimes get confused of like, well, I've had one shot, so I must be pretty good.
Speaker 2: And I think you just want to be clear about what you mean by fully vaccinated When you're saying it
Speaker 1: lizzie post before we leave this question, there are two pieces of housekeeping. I have to do. One is I have to give you huge etiquette props for looking down the road and seeing the potential hiccup that might
Speaker 1: occur if your percentages were out of line. If your guest percentages were out of line. And
Speaker 1: I was trying to think of a way to solve it as you were describing it. And I ended up thinking to myself, maybe that's a question for a different show that, you know, you could anticipate that being a potential problem. But that's another one of those. These are hard conditions and we'll deal with it if we have to like so many things in this pandemic.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that would be if you ran up against that, it would be a that so we're going to have to deal with this in the moment and try and figure this out. But it's
Speaker 2: it's why I have been so frustrated with the fact that wedding's going on. I just I just feel for couples and families who are throwing these fabulous, wonderful events. And and I mean, remember in the start of the pandemic, when we were just like
Speaker 2: we were also sympathizing and had so much compassion for the folks who had been planning these weddings for forever or who had just gotten into it and then find they can't
Speaker 2: throw this wedding and they don't even know when they're going to be able to throw it. And I've watched Friends have very
Speaker 2: unsatisfying experiences with it and and just they feel so lost at what is supposed to be such a traditional and good and fun and wonderful celebratory time in life.
Speaker 2: And I think that this, you know, having to throw this at couples who have all been dealing with this postponement or these changes are these cancellations for the past 16 months
Speaker 2: is just it's it's another thing that I just, I wish I could, oh here we go wave my magic wand, my magic etiquette wand and just make you not have to deal with this because trying to figure out from your guest list what percentage might be your unvaccinated percentage that would be allowed to come is just
Speaker 2: that's a nightmare. And it puts you in a really, really difficult situation. And so I just from an etiquette standpoint, we're going to say straight up this is really hard and this will take some dancing around and and it's it's a really hard situation. So we're sympathizing with how difficult it is. But
Speaker 2: with that anonymous we certainly hope that you are able to execute all these wonderful plans and that the numbers work out and that you can have a fabulous, fabulous wedding this summer.
Speaker 1: Your child or any member of your family eligible for vaccine in your community should be vaccinated. Now,
Speaker 1: vaccination now will save lives from death or paralysis this year.
Speaker 1: Make use of increasing supplies of vaccine, help your child grow up strong And straight.
Speaker 2: Our next question is titled Meandering Mother in Law and because I am definitely going to be tossing this one to you, not because you have a meandering mother in law, but because you have a mother in law and I figure you can relate.
Speaker 2: The question begins, Dear dan and lizzie, longtime listener, love the show. I have a question. I would love your thoughts on whenever my mother in law visits, she snoops around my home,
Speaker 2: think opening cupboards, peeking inside drawers, opening closets for no reason. Examples. I once found her looking through a linen closet. When I asked her if she needed something, she said she was just interested in how it was organized.
Speaker 2: Early in her marriage, she asked me if I would like her to organize my tupperware drawer, it was a mess and I was mortified. I thanked her and said I would get to it at a later date.
Speaker 2: She once walked into the kitchen and asked how long I've been using. Tide laundry detergent. My detergent items are kept in a closed wall cabinet.
Speaker 2: Besides this issue, my mother in law is great. I have been in the family for almost 20 years. I love her and want her to feel welcome in our home.
Speaker 2: It is also important to note that she does not visit often. We live far away and we see them only once a year. On average, I have always dealt with this issue by gearing up a few weeks before she visits and giving each cabinet a once over cleaning linen closets, et cetera. Before she comes,
Speaker 2: it's kind of a spring cleaning of sorts. As I know, the state of my home will be viewed and inspected and likely discussed with my sister in laws
Speaker 2: after so many years. A full house of kids and basically feeling too tired to face a deep clean in the next few weeks before her next visit.
Speaker 2: I am wondering if there is a polite way to ask her not to snoop in my cabinets and drawers while she's here. I want to be polite and respectful but I just don't feel up to facing the job of spring cleaning with so much going on right now.
Speaker 2: My husband has suggested that I should just not worry about this quote. Who cares what she thinks about our cabinets. Our house is perfect the way it is unquote approach,
Speaker 2: but I do care. I am not sure why it matters, but it does. Where is the balance? Can I say something without causing a bigger issue? Thanks anonymous. We've had a lot of anonymous today. I feel like I should point that out probably for a lot of good reasons,
Speaker 2: but because you have a mother in law, is this over snooping under snooping? What do you what do you think?
Speaker 1: Okay. First, just off the bat because she's been referenced. Alka, my mother in law is awesome and um, she is definitely very active around my house when she comes and I love it.
Speaker 1: And when I read about the organizing of the tupperware drawer, I uh brought a smile to my face because
Speaker 1: I always enjoy the state of our kitchen after all, has been through. The tupperware drawer is neat and tidy and everything is nested properly and the bulk stuff has all been moved into the right canisters into the cabinets and
Speaker 1: um, it's something she really enjoys. She got us a spike spice rack, a revolving spice rack that completely transformed one cabinet in her kitchen one visit.
Speaker 1: I also watch her daughter's not be quite as enthusiastic about her level of participation. Sometimes she often comes with offers of help that to me just seem awesome.
Speaker 1: And I think sometimes they feel like a comment or like an intrusion to
Speaker 1: to some of her daughter's in ways that it just doesn't feel to me. So I I understand how the same thing can feel different ways depending on who you are and what your relationship is to the person who's doing them.
Speaker 2: I totally get that when I don't have a mother in law, but when my mom comes or at least she used to do this, she doesn't do it anymore, but she used to like grab the broom and just start sweeping my kitchen when the visit was not at all in related to that, like,
Speaker 2: and it wasn't also a visit where you would come and like
Speaker 2: hang out like often she and my dad will stop by to like check out a project that needs work on the house or something like that. And then all of a sudden I see her kind of like tidying something and it would drive me nuts. I wonder if part of it is also that like maybe in your case stan the sisters want to or the daughter wants to focus on the visit with the mom
Speaker 2: and not spend that time cleaning and re or gonna, you know, it's like, I mean I'm with dan, I'm often in the, if it's someone else's mom, my mom and like please help me or if we've scheduled the help,
Speaker 2: I feel a lot better about it being helped that I'm leaning into as opposed to a comment on me not being able to or not being good enough to make my house this way on my own.
Speaker 2: I never feel bad about it when I asked my mom if she'll come help me with some gardening or getting the yard in a certain way or painting or something like that right? But for some reason if she tries to to do something when that's not the purpose of the visit, then I get I get like yeah, I get a little less sorts about it. I'm like well why why are you focused on that right now? I want you to be focused on
Speaker 2: being here for this reason. You know,
Speaker 2: luckily for me as my mom's gotten older, she keeps telling me I can't I can't like I started warning her, I'm like listen mom, I know you're coming over this afternoon to do the whatever the house is not in its cleanest state, Like, please don't try to sweep or vacuum or do anything. And she has now started saying to me, dan,
Speaker 2: I can't even see the dirt anymore lizzie, so I'm not gonna try. I'm like, yes, this is better. But what do you think our listener could do? Because this is, this is a little bit like you're coming, you are coming for a visit and obviously as a host, you want your guests to feel comfortable in your home. You don't want them to be distracted by mess, you know, and or to feel like
Speaker 2: they can't stay here. What do you
Speaker 1: think? As I'm reading the question, I'm seeing that level of awareness that usually I deal with this by making a little bit of an effort. I find some middle ground. I take advantage of the visit to do my spring cleaning. I think that's obviously a tactic and as a considerate host, I think it's a wise move.
Speaker 1: The particular etiquette point that I really focus on in this question where I think the biggest issue comes up is the question around privacy.
Speaker 1: And if we want to review sort of fundamental etiquette, I think it's oftentimes a good place to go when we're dealing with a difficult question. There is some some really important fundamental etiquette around respecting people's privacy that when you're a guest in someone's home, you respect closed doors, you stay out of medicine cabinets, you stay out of
Speaker 1: bedrooms that aren't yours closets that have closed doors that you haven't been told use this linen closet when you're taking a shower.
Speaker 1: That that's snooping around someone's home is really bad etiquette. It's not good form and
Speaker 1: I because it is such bad etiquette, I think it's really hard to correct it as a behavior in someone else without pointing it out. I think that
Speaker 1: yeah, the back and forth of the relationship here and the cost benefit around one visit a year
Speaker 1: puts me in the, on the, you know, if if the needle is pointing up and it could fall to either side, I'm falling to the side of I'm not going to try to correct this behavior and her or tell her how unsettling it is. For me, I'm going to try to manage my response to it.
Speaker 1: I'm going to say to myself that is not good behavior and it's not something I'm likely to be able to correct in my mother in law.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna take a little bit of that spirit that my husband is offering, which is
Speaker 1: I feel from him, the offer that don't worry about my mother, about me, reflecting my mother's opinions on that I'm here with you, that I'm comfortable in our
Speaker 2: house and his line of our house is perfect the way it is. I just I loved that. And he
Speaker 1: even says, who cares what she thinks. I think really to indicate
Speaker 1: that he is on your side that he's not that worried about it. And I don't think he really means, nobody cares what his mother thinks. I think you both obviously care what his mother thinks and that comes through and your your whole approach and your whole thinking about this situation. I don't think that's gonna get lost at all.
Speaker 2: I want to take a minute to acknowledge that
Speaker 2: anonymous has said that even though she loves the support of her husband, who who says, you know, don't don't care about what my mother thinks like what we just said. You know, our house is perfect the way it is, that to her it is mattering and and for me that's a
Speaker 2: it's really tough because my natural inclination is much like dan. I want to jump into this face of of dan and the husband was just, you know, okay, we are, we are going to worry about it. Like you pay for the help, embrace, lean in
Speaker 2: and if that's not something that feels feels good. I think there
Speaker 2: are some things you could do, but I'm with my cousin here. The behavior she was exhibiting isn't great behavior and if you point it out to her, that is why I'm totally with you because I don't think that's gonna be polite, you know what I mean? Um But I do think
Speaker 2: uh doing the things that you have been doing are actually good things if you, you know ahead of time that you're not gonna be able to do the type of cleaning you normally do, that might even be something that you bring up with her say, you know, I usually try to get the house in really great shape before you show up. Unfortunately, this year
Speaker 2: with Covid and with everything going on, it's not in this state. I wish it could be for our visit, but I really want to focus on having a great visit with you and enjoying our time together this year because this year in particular, it's so precious and that might be a way to just acknowledge with kind of like a blanket statement that the house might not be perfect
Speaker 2: and and just put that out there ahead of it rather than having her come and start kind of noticing all the imperfections. I'm not sure it'll stop her entirely.
Speaker 2: So that would be, that would be my tactic is to kind of almost like raised the white flag from the beginning of the visit on this time.
Speaker 2: Um and then in the future I would keep doing the things that you're doing. Like when she says the tupperware is a mess you could say, yeah, I'll get to that later and then I would add that line in about, I'm just so excited to focus on you being here right now, You know, let's let's go enjoy some tea in the garden or something, you know, whatever it is,
Speaker 2: but get her focused more on being that guest in your life in your home and just keep redirecting her to that guest role of oh, don't worry about it, we'd be happy to do this. I I also have to say dan, I just think it's hard for moms to not want to try to help or do something. Like, I think that's the impression I get from your mother in law, from my mother, from other mothers I've experienced in other ways and from the sound of this mother, I don't know her. So I can't say for sure,
Speaker 2: but give people the grain of salt look, look to the better side of things
Speaker 2: as best you can. Look to the good intention wherever you can. It sounds like this is someone who wants to help or is curious to. I think, I think parents have a hard time not being curious about how their kids are living. You know, even when they're adults
Speaker 1: anonymous, we really hope this answer catches you in time and that it's some help before the visit. I do think in this case that ounce of prevention that lizzie is talking about might be worth a pound of cure
Speaker 1: but on another potential source of trouble
Speaker 1: in laws
Speaker 1: when we first planned to move into that two family house, I thought of all those mother in law jokes still they couldn't apply to nice people like us.
Speaker 1: Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463 You can also reach us on social media on twitter. We are at Emily Post inst on instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute and on facebook we are awesome etiquette.
Speaker 1: Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your posts so that we know you want your question on the show.
Speaker 2: Mhm.
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Speaker 1: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer and the topics we cover. And today we hear from an on the Bachelorette back out.
Speaker 1: Hi lizzie and dan while listening to this episode about the sister in law that wants to back out of hosting a bachelorette party for her sister in law. I thought of two other options.
Speaker 1: One
Speaker 1: tell her you are happy to host, but that due to your nervousness regarding Covid, you're wondering would she consider reducing the number of guests if they haven't already invited guests
Speaker 1: to ask that everyone be vaccinated? Hopefully there's still enough time for this.
Speaker 1: I love your show. I'm a fellow vermonter too
Speaker 1: best and
Speaker 2: and it's so great to hear from a neighbor. Thank you so much for those added suggestions to that very tricky question about the Bachelor at back out,
Speaker 1: you know, lizzie. But I was really curious that the option of asking people if they're vaccinated is now popping up as an official alternative way to solve some of these problems. It
Speaker 2: is, it is.
Speaker 1: And thank you for your feedback
Speaker 1: and thank you for sending your thoughts and updates. Please do keep them coming. You can send your next feedback or update awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can also leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Mhm.
Speaker 2: It's time for our post script segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette and today we're going to talk about etiquette and ethics because lay it on me. What have you got planned for us?
Speaker 1: Don't worry. Don't worry. Don't worry. It's not too deep
Speaker 2: dive.
Speaker 1: And you started this just so you know,
Speaker 2: I did not don't don't even dare put it on me.
Speaker 1: You absolutely started this. I'm the
Speaker 2: hesitant one.
Speaker 1: But you went and assembled a bunch of really good Emily Post quotes for us to share through social media. And
Speaker 1: the task of distributing those quotes over the calendar fell to me. And as I was doing it I was reading these quotes that I hadn't selected. So
Speaker 1: as I'm reading the words of Emily Post, they're working on me the way I imagine you intended them to work as little moments of inspiration that get the brain going right,
Speaker 2: wait a second. So are you saying that this is going to be based off of either the Gandalf for the Taylor Swift
Speaker 1: quote that I threw in there?
Speaker 1: No, but the Gandalf quote was maybe my favorite one
Speaker 2: Is a good one. It's a good one, folks keep an eye out on our social media channels. Alright. But anyway, we digress
Speaker 1: the particular Emily Post quote though that was the origin of the inspiration for this postscript is what about ethics? And Emily was saying something like if etiquette is to be of more than trifling use, it must also include ethics. And
Speaker 1: I like that idea. It made me think about our idea that etiquette is a combination of manners and principles and I was wondering what exactly did Emily mean by ethics. And
Speaker 1: I mean I have a general idea of what ethics are, but when I really ask myself, I didn't know specifically how to define the word. So I went to look it up
Speaker 1: and so the definition for ethics was rooted in this idea of moral principles. So I said to myself, boy, that sounds really similar to our idea of principles and manners combining to make etiquette
Speaker 2: whoa, you just used the word moral in there And I like
Speaker 2: moral gets my I don't know like both both makes me feel about like things
Speaker 2: I might feel really strongly about and in my own, in my own inner self,
Speaker 2: you know, uh you proudly is like a guide and at the same time morality. I feel immediate judgment. I think the Scarlet letter, I think just ways that, that people have been oppressed. I mean I like the idea of you know, don't kill each other,
Speaker 2: but it immediately makes me feel
Speaker 2: judgment and and and just like judgment kelly's get me out of the zone because you're finding it useful for an etiquette definition.
Speaker 2: Well
Speaker 1: as is so often the case. These are big ideas, big concepts. So really understanding clearly what we're talking about when we're talking about ethics principles. Moral principles isn't easy. That's one of the reasons I got into these definitions to share it
Speaker 2: dan and are big fans of looking things up in multiple dictionaries. Just so you
Speaker 1: know, so what is it about the word? Moral principles that brings up a response that like you say, maybe has that clench to it as opposed to
Speaker 1: the way we often talk about principles on the show where I know you love Yeah, we are considerate and respectful and honest.
Speaker 2: I love a good principle. But yeah, that were moral, you think of all kinds of different things.
Speaker 1: So I'm going to take a chance here and you and I operate obviously we grew up in Vermont and we live and work in Vermont and
Speaker 1: I think for us oftentimes there's a a new England culture that we're a part of and
Speaker 1: puritanical approach to moral principles I think could be really severe and often was like the whole idea of moral principles where that judgments
Speaker 2: coming from in my
Speaker 1: head puritanism is a big deal. And more broadly the idea of morals as sets of rights and wrongs or just ideas about
Speaker 1: what is fundamentally right and wrong for us. So maybe divorcing it from a little bit of that puritanical severity, holding on to thank you
Speaker 2: know, you're getting me to the right space to be able to absorb this. You're getting me there. Thank
Speaker 1: you.
Speaker 1: Sure. The idea that there's a code of conduct or a standard of principles that we collectively agree upon as defining what's right and wrong.
Speaker 2: That's what you found as a definition for moral principles is like a collective community version of it, essentially. Nice. We can get behind that.
Speaker 2: I think
Speaker 1: so and
Speaker 1: and this is where the, for me as someone who works and
Speaker 1: the world of etiquette and teaches etiquette a lot or writes about etiquette a lot. So often we talk about manners as being derived from principles are being based on principles sort of in our etiquette formula, the one that we share at the Emily Post Institute.
Speaker 1: And in a lot of the definitions that I was looking at, I was also seeing that oftentimes people describe principles as emerging from communities
Speaker 1: and the idea that it would be possible for
Speaker 1: the relationship between manners and principles to not always be derivative in one direction led by the principles.
Speaker 2: Exactly like I mean because we often talk about it like the principles when you don't know the manner you can fall back on the principles, right? And that would kind of make it seem like they're your catch all.
Speaker 2: But you you found this way of of where it's the manners that might actually help you to then define the principles. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Yes, more simply. And it's it's a complex thought or the idea that maybe manners could be generative in some way that by
Speaker 1: assuming the behaviors you might engender the feelings or the thoughts are the ideals.
Speaker 2: So maybe writing a thank you note might make you feel the gratitude.
Speaker 1: We talk about this, right? And just maybe being a little more explicit about the way that that that creative relationship could operate in either direction, perhaps between manners and principles.
Speaker 2: Because I've been trying to lose my pandemic weight. And you're making me remember that there's another way to handle kind of re entry into society and that is to flex my manners muscles
Speaker 2: and to remember that those manners muscles are there there are things I can I can count on and when I might be a little bit confused about
Speaker 2: where the respect is or where the respect and the consideration are in relation to how I feel in a moment, which I think is going to be something really true for a lot of us in the next three or four months.
Speaker 2: That just leaning on those classic manners might really help me get through moments that could feel more awkward than they would have, you know, a year and a half, two years ago.
Speaker 1: Okay, I am just so happy and delighted that out of my just very bizarre theory, thought you found some practical etiquette advice that you could give and take yourself lizzie because you are a master.
Speaker 2: You'll have to know like before before this same and I was city. You're going morals, dan. I don't know, morals, this feels big, this feels big. What do we do? What do we do? You got me there because you got me there. You got me to the applicable everyday moment
Speaker 1: with lizzie post. I say it with a smile on my face, but
Speaker 1: I'm also serious. I think you've found a really good takeaway here and whether it was Emily talking about etiquette and ethics or whether it's you and me today talking about manners and principles, I think the idea that
Speaker 1: fundamentally for this material to work, it has to be substantive and that you might be able to find that substance in the details in the same way that you could elucidate the details from a deep understanding of the substance.
Speaker 2: I like it. I like it. I like that kind of balance because thank you so much for
Speaker 2: for finding inspiration from those quotes and for for bringing this 12 ahead. It's always been one I've known about and not really wanted to enter too far in because of my my squeamishness in morals and you know, individuality and things like that. But
Speaker 2: by the way, I'm not squeamish about individuality, but it's more so how morals might impact some one's individuality. Um but this this really placed it into something that I could wrap my brain around. Um sort of more concretely. I really appreciate. It was good dive because good dive
Speaker 1: that ever happens. I want to be ready. I wanna be ready physically and mentally,
Speaker 1: morally and spiritually.
Speaker 1: I want every chance to win.
Speaker 1: How about you?
Speaker 1: We like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world and that can come in so many forms. Today we have a salute from David,
Speaker 2: dear, Lizzy dan and team. Thanks as always for your wonderful podcast and positive guidance. I hope you all progress with your vaccinations as quickly and easily as possible. Hold on, no dance and I'm next week
Speaker 2: I have an item for the etiquette magic wand and a salute. My etiquette magic wand would be removing our bias against others intrinsic outward differences. When we decide how to treat others
Speaker 2: so many times, age, skin color clothing or physical appearance can influence what we think of others and then affects how we treat them. If we look past those differences, we'd be more polite.
Speaker 2: Here's my etiquette salute.
Speaker 2: My employment allowed me to be vaccinated against covid at a new york state run site.
Speaker 2: It's extremely busy.
Speaker 2: As soon as you get near the site, there are proactive friendly people offering help on where to park and where to go, there are several checkpoints and without exception. Everyone is kind and patient.
Speaker 2: This is a frightening experience for some people for many reasons. And the good natured, knowledgeable people executing it made the experience incredibly pleasant.
Speaker 2: Now that I've had both shots. Yeah, I'd like to offer a shout out to all of the great people at the new york state vaccine location in johnson city new york.
Speaker 2: Thank you for all you do and be safe best. David.
Speaker 1: David, Thank you so much for this feedback and this salute. I love your etiquette magic wand. Uh wish. And um I also love your salute. All those people that are getting vaccines into people's arms are doing heroic work and they're doing it with a smile on their face
Speaker 1: while
Speaker 1: I can't even imagine the full uh pageant of emotions that they encounter. Has they do that job and it's really kind of you to point that out. Thank you for this salute.
Speaker 1: Yeah,
Speaker 2: thank you for listening.
Speaker 1: Thank you to everyone who sent us something and everyone who supports us on Patreon.
Speaker 2: Please connect with us and share this show with friends, family and co workers and on social media,
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Speaker 1: etiquette. Our show is edited by chris Albertine. An assistant produced by Brigitte.
Speaker 2: Dowd. Thanks chris Christie Bridget.
Speaker 2: Yeah,
Speaker 2: yeah.