Episode 357 - Let's Not 'Do Lunch'
In this episode of Awesome Etiquette
Welcome to Awesome Etiquette, where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. On today’s show we take your questions on What titles to use when someone’s marital status is unknown, the phrase “let’s do lunch,” extreme wedding mishaps and feeling overwhelmed when making new friends. For Awesome Etiquette Sustaining members our question is about visiting with friends on a budget. Plus your most excellent feedback, etiquette salute and postscript on ties.
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Speaker 1: maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social. Could you see that's old fashioned,
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Speaker 1: watch how busy post and then post to act as host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person, Real friendliness.
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Speaker 1: Mhm.
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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to awesome etiquette where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. On today's show, we take your questions on what titles to use when someone's marital status is unknown. The phrase, let's do lunch extreme wedding mishaps and feeling overwhelmed when making new friends for awesome etiquette sustaining members. Our question of the week is about visiting with friends when you're on a budget plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a postscript on ties all that's coming up,
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Speaker 1: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute. I'm lizzie Post and I'm dan post sending because how's it going? You know, because we've been on the phone all day, working on our edits. Yes, we have.
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Speaker 1: I'm very glad to be back at the mic and doing the podcast. And you had a really cute story for the intro today about a little etiquette lesson at dinner. I do and thank you for letting me share. I want to give everyone a little background home alone this weekend
00:01:39
Speaker 1: who has taken the girl, she's visiting her sister and visiting with her parents and giving me time to focus on editing this book as we pushed through our final deadline. Many thanks pooch, many thanks Bhuj.
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Speaker 1: And we were thinking about having a couple of days apart and pooches very intentional about a lot of the things she does and she wanted to have a nice dinner together as a family on the night before she left. So she had made kind of a special dinner and Anisha helped set the table
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Speaker 1: and
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Speaker 1: I'm also in the middle of a lot of work so I'm kind of rushing around and I didn't participate in all that preparation, but I sort of joined them at the table as dinner began
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Speaker 1: and
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Speaker 1: as often happens with a couple little kids at the table, just over two year old and a 4.5 year old,
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Speaker 1: the
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Speaker 1: two year old who loves to eat has wolfed her food down and is now painting on her tray with the remainder. And this means you got about a five minute window before she takes the dishes and starts tossing them around. The real signal that she's done,
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Speaker 1: we're working on that. But at the same time her sister who eats much more slowly, sort of looking at her food, kind of deciding what approach she's going to take dad somewhere in the middle
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Speaker 1: who just just finished serving herself. And
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Speaker 1: I'm starting to look at the freezer. I'm thinking about the ice cream that's coming for dessert and I'm thinking that that would work really well too. Can I pause here and just just highlight the fact that you haven't said you're finished with your meal, you're still eating and you're going you're like you've got eyes for the freezer already.
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Speaker 1: Yes. So I finished my course and I promise I'm really thinking about Aria and I'm thinking about getting the next thing happening. And so I'm starting to think it's time that maybe a few of us could switch to desert and suggest that to Puga. And she tells me that that is not a good idea
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Speaker 1: that
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Speaker 1: Anisha still has to finish and she is still finishing and she'd like to proceed through the dinner with a little more care. A little more formality,
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Speaker 1: perhaps a little more formality. So I take a pause and a deep breath and join her in that thought
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Speaker 1: tell myself I'll be waiting for that drop down your hand from Ben and jerry's that I know is waiting for me stations totally and then the most amazing thing happened. Aria starts to learn a lesson about patients. She starts to sit there and we engage with her a little bit and
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Speaker 1: even tell her that we're waiting till a niche is finishing to move onto the next thing
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Speaker 1: and Anissa starts to engage with her food a little bit more because she hears that desserts coming and that maybe it's her proceeding through this course that's going to get us there. And I'm starting to learn something as I'm watching that happen about
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Speaker 1: the importance of some of the little lessons that you and I talk about all the time and how they really do work when you make the effort to put them into play in your life. And that they're really substantial lessons to be learned and really valuable things that come out of
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Speaker 1: paying attention to some of those little details that we really focus on in the show. And we try to keep our attention on those bigger picture
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Speaker 1: broad strokes goals or outcomes and values that we think these behaviors and gender and represent.
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Speaker 1: But to watch it happen and to happen around the table and specifically around table manners and to
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Speaker 1: watch it happen within my own family was a sort of profound moment. Like the course change was actually having everyone you and both your daughters uh monitor in some cases, changed their behavior in the moment to reflect the whole scene that's happening here and that that you and poof you're trying to create with that nice dinner at home before everyone separates.
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Speaker 1: Yes. It's very cool.
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Speaker 1: It really was and really learned lessons that are important to each of them where they are in their, in their life. I could talk more about that. But there are very specific and personal things. The two year old learns the patients and the four year old learns that that she's a part of the group that impacts the group, you know?
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Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely. Very cool, very cool
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Speaker 1: etiquette lessons at dinner, etiquette lessons at dinner. I love it. I love it. Especially you and I were just working on the entertaining at home chapter which is heavily filled with the dinner party and dining at home together. And there are a lot of moments
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Speaker 1: when you're writing a book like this were like does this even matter? Do we really do this? You know, these kinds of things and to see such a clear
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Speaker 1: example of finishing a course together before moving on to the next course, but even executed at the family level, but that it made a difference to the family that night, that that like it helped to achieve the goal that mom was trying to achieve, took us out of our usual
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Speaker 1: Stashes and our usual ways of being and
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Speaker 1: helped us all grow a little bit. So nice. It's no, it really, really is. Um, and I bet probably very satisfying to see your own work, like, like you know the stuff you talk about at work just so at play in your own home. I mean, I know it is regularly, but it is kind of fun to like notice those moments
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Speaker 1: and in some ways to be the target of the left. Yeah, slow your roll down. The chocolate ice cream is coming.
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Speaker 1: Well there's something else that's coming lizzie post. Do you think? Do you think Do you think the answer is questions?
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Speaker 1: We have some questions to get to. Let's do it, let's do it.
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Speaker 1: Awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions. You can email them to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. Leave a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463 Or reach us on social media on twitter. We are at Emily Post install on instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette.
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Speaker 1: Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media post. So we know you want your question on the show.
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Speaker 1: Our first question this week is about guessing titles.
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Speaker 1: It comes in the form of a voicemail from a couple of coworkers wondering how to address the members at their fitness center. Hi, this is Misha. We have a question, I am sitting at work with my colleague, Stephen Elizondo and we are in the customer service industry. We manage the group X department
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Speaker 1: in a high end fitness facility in Houston texas.
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Speaker 1: And we often replied to members
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Speaker 1: their questions and comments and feedback
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Speaker 1: and oftentimes we don't know the members intimately enough to know if they're married or not. And so the question that came up today was we were fielding a question by a member and how to reply to her when we don't know if she's married or not,
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Speaker 1: would it be? What is the proper generic
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Speaker 1: an offensive
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Speaker 1: way to direct? Let's say jane smith. If we don't know who jane, if James smith is married or not,
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Speaker 1: is it news mrs
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Speaker 1: or just James smith?
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Speaker 1: We'd love any input you could give on that question as we make that decision a lot in our business every day. Thank you.
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Speaker 1: So dan. What do you what do you think? This is a really classic actually, titles question. I love a question about titles and honorifics. I also love questions that
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Speaker 1: have pretty direct etiquette answers and the history of the development of Miz and the usage of Mrs and mrs. Give us a pretty clear answer to a question like this.
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Speaker 1: You're absolutely right. In fact, miss in some ways was created because we really wanted to have a more universal title for women
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Speaker 1: that didn't necessarily identify their marital status but that recognize them as adult women. And that that is the title of Miz.
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Speaker 1: When it comes to the three options that are question Nascar's are talking about. I like the fact that they're thinking about everything, everything that's there, right? You could this could be a mrs jane smith. This could be a miss jane smith.
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Speaker 1: And then there is technically the option to not use a title, avoid it. You know when you don't know for certain what someone uses
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Speaker 1: and just put jane smith.
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Speaker 1: But because you noticed something in this voice mail that I had missed at first, which was that this is a high end facility. This is a high end fitness center
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Speaker 1: and a lot of the times in high end we tend to think things are a little bit more formal and that makes me lean a little bit more towards at least trying to use a title in your reply. What do you think?
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Speaker 1: I think it's a good idea if that high end is um if one of the ways you're marking that is through a certain formality and your treatment and your service, that making that effort to do those little things
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Speaker 1: is something people might really appreciate.
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Speaker 1: And in this particular case, I'm gonna say that I would probably go with the Miz and I want to put like a little asterix or an exception to it. You and I have really been thinking about the future of titles. And one of the things that we've been curious about is if Mix will will really take its place as a universal title for anyone
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Speaker 1: to use when you're not sure of their gender or you're not sure of their marital status. And so you could throw it out here as 1/4 option. The mixed title. I like that. Including it as an option
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Speaker 1: because it certainly is one and you're right. Typically people think of mix as an option, a more universal option when you're thinking about gender and titles. But there's absolutely no reason why that universe salad. He can't be more broadly applied
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Speaker 1: because this question was quite specific about a jane. My mind tended to stay within that miss mrs category and I think I'd still go with the Miz. But having the mix on that list I think is a really important option to keep in mind because it's certainly available to us,
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Speaker 1: Misha and Stephen. We certainly hope that our answer helps and we love how considerate you all are being of your members at this particular fitness facility. I'm sure that they appreciated a lot to a well mannered group. I think
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Speaker 1: you notice they're good manners right away.
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Speaker 1: Good manners make good first impressions and because your manners are showing all the time, they have a lot to do with how well people like you.
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Speaker 1: Our next question is titled let's do lunch or not
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Speaker 1: for a number of years now it has become a habit for all ages. Even we older girls in quotes to say let's do lunch.
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Speaker 1: I simply cannot help it hearing this is like fingernails on a blackboard to me in my generation, we actually use blackboards in schools and they worked quite well before we obtained flip charts,
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Speaker 1: my mother and both of my grandmothers would have quote unquote freaked out. They would have considered at the height of ill manners and honestly I do too.
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Speaker 1: Am I supposed to accept this as modern day etiquette?
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Speaker 1: What do you think? Emily's response would be I look forward to hearing from you at your convenience, most sincerely and respectfully. Marcia from Georgia. Marcia from Georgia. Thank you so much for the question and thank you for giving us the credit of being able to interpret what Emily's responses might have been because it's something Lizzy and I
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Speaker 1: enjoy thinking about and doing all on our own treat treat with others is really nice.
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Speaker 1: And I think Emily would agree with you and your mother and both of your grandmother's. This is not a good invitation. And
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Speaker 1: um, it's not a good invitation for all kinds of reasons. It evokes in my mind, sort of the images of Hollywood in the 19 eighties, just very casual, Hey babe, let's do lunch. Like very like the most insincere thing, stealing your socializing, you know, pennsylvania and
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Speaker 1: Exactly. And the the idea is that this isn't a real ask. This is, this is a thought. It's and
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Speaker 1: I think a lot of people use it because they aren't prepared to make an actual ask, but they want the intention of I'd like to get together with you soon. And I think that that's such a better way to approach. It would be to say would be to actually honour that intention and just say,
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Speaker 1: boy, I would love to find a time to get together soon. Let me think about it and call you with a proper invitation. You know,
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Speaker 1: I do know because I do know what you mean. And it was your etiquette advice. Well, I first heard it from you about the good ask about making your invitations clear and explicit that I I thought at first when I read this question, because
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Speaker 1: when I read that in your book, your first book, it was really helpful for me as a young person who was operating in a very casual social environment to think about whether I was really inviting people to do things or just throwing around lines that functioned in a very similar way that let's do lunch functions where you kind of
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Speaker 1: put yourself out there, but not really. Marcia from Georgia. As dan said, we are, we are quite sure that Emily would be an agreement on this one that a proper invitation is the right thing to extend. And if you want to extend sentiment really make it look like sentiment. Not like a fake invitation.
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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for this question.
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Speaker 1: Mhm.
00:15:48
Speaker 1: Matters are important in helping people get along together. You'll never be happy with others until you learn to be considerate of them. Get along All right. Are you making,
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Speaker 1: I wonder,
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Speaker 1: Yeah.
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Speaker 1: Our next question is titled What a wedding.
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Speaker 1: And I think you're going to see why we titled at that
00:16:12
Speaker 1: good morrow. I just started listening to your podcast, my first podcast ever and I love it.
00:16:18
Speaker 1: I do have a couple of questions about something that happened and I'm not sure the correct way I should have dealt with the situation.
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Speaker 1: My brother was getting married and asked why I had not RSVP'd to his wedding.
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Speaker 1: I did not receive an invitation and told him this. When he asked his fiancee, she said she wrote it herself and addressed it to my parents house.
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Speaker 1: I then contacted my parents to ask if they got my invitation and they said they didn't see one, but would double check
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Speaker 1: What they found was in and child sticker on the front of their envelope despite my being 22 years old and living on my own.
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Speaker 1: I did not mind too much about the invite not being mailed to my home, but I would have liked to have gotten my own or even just had my name on my parents invite as I was not being permitted a plus one.
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Speaker 1: I felt like an unwanted afterthought. What is the appropriate age in which someone should get their own invitation to a wedding?
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Speaker 1: I went to the ceremony and reception, but more uncomfortable things happened. I was sad at a half empty table as they're clearly had been some people who declined to attend.
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Speaker 1: I kind of wish I had asked my brother that if anyone was unable to make it, I could bring a date. I would never do that for anyone else's wedding. But it was my brother.
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Speaker 1: Would he have been a reasonable exception
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Speaker 1: worse yet. My brother is aware I am highly allergic to peanuts and cannot even be in the same room. His wife is also aware because I've had an anaphylactic attack at another family event. Previously.
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Speaker 1: Despite this, nut bulls were brought out to all the tables. I had to quickly leave the room to take some allergy medication and used my puffers while my dad quietly asked the serving staff to remove the nuts back to the kitchen and open some windows to air out the space. It was summer and the weather was nice.
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Speaker 1: My sister in law got mad at me and had the nuts brought out again. I ended up spending most of the night by myself in the doorway just so I could keep breathing.
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Speaker 1: We hadn't wanted to interrupt the bride and groom to mention the allergy issue, but should we have gone to the bride as my brother always refers everything to her, to ask that she deal with asking the servers to remove the nuts. Instead, needless to say it was a lesson learned.
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Speaker 1: You cannot expect your siblings to remember about the things that could kill you when they are planning their wedding. I am now always careful to remind friends and family of my allergy when I am invited to events, basically saying I'd love to come, but I'm worried about any peanuts being present.
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Speaker 1: But what if you're someone else's plus one? I was once invited as a date to an event but had to be taken to the hospital due to an anaphylactic attack from peanuts being present.
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Speaker 1: How should I get my allergy known to the right people in that situation?
00:18:52
Speaker 1: Thanks for whatever advice you can give me jake
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Speaker 1: jake. There is a lot to unpack here. Um dan. I feel like this could be this. This one question could be like the whole show is worth of questions and individually they each have some pretty key etiquette points to them. I think the first and foremost is that a person living on their own
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Speaker 1: receives their own invitations to things when you, when you no longer live in your family home,
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Speaker 1: generally you are expected to be receiving your own invitations, um, your own correspondence, that sort of thing. Occasionally a family won't put your host won't put as much effort into seeking out that person's address
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Speaker 1: and they'll do exactly what jake had mentioned. He would have been fine with which was having his name also on the invitation but an actual name, not an and child sticker lizzie. I'm sorry to interrupt but I just have to say I agree. 1000% getting at least the name on there is a bare minimum. Yeah, yeah. And you're right. Every step up its own invitation to the parents house and then obviously an invitation directly to him being the better options. Totally, totally. In terms of the plus one and wondering if you could have asked for one. I think that even though this is your brother, I would still refrain from trying to ask. I might like as planning is going on ask if they're giving plus ones, two singles,
00:20:23
Speaker 1: but I wouldn't probably ask for one specifically for myself
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Speaker 1: even being a sibling of one of the people getting married dan. What do you think is that going too far?
00:20:33
Speaker 1: No, I think you're right in the caution there. The the idea of asking for permission to bring someone else is it's a big ask and
00:20:44
Speaker 1: I appreciate that that's understood and the ideas, Well, maybe this is one of those exception cases where you're close enough and at the same time when there's already been a little bit of confusion just even about the invitation,
00:21:00
Speaker 1: I probably would be careful about asking about a plus one. I would also be careful assuming that the half empty table means that people had declined in a timely manner and there was maybe room to extend plus ones to other people. Um That's a good thing. Yeah, that's just something that as a guest in general, you really don't know when what went into that planning or if
00:21:24
Speaker 1: frankly some people declining was a relief and it put the budget in a more comfortable place for someone. And so rather than adding some plus ones to fill up some tables, you decided to just have a half table somewhere. Um It also might be that the venue wasn't gonna put out
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Speaker 1: a table that was smaller to accommodate the actual number of people for the event and therefore there are sometimes there is sometimes a half table
00:21:47
Speaker 1: because of the way the banquet services going. The table one I would be less inclined to lean into as an indicator of things. It can feel like a real shame though, when you're sitting at that half empty table and this is your brother's wedding, it feels a little distant maybe,
00:22:05
Speaker 1: but lizzie boast, I'm really curious about this peanut situation in the moment where you've got
00:22:13
Speaker 1: jake having a medical emergency, you've got dad trying to get the peanuts removed, you've got the sister in law trying to get them replaced or returned. And it seems like there's not a lot of communication happening between all of these parties because things are happening quickly and the wedding's going on at the same time,
00:22:29
Speaker 1: it's a lot to unpack. Um for me, one of one of the things I'm a little unsure of is that the sister in law could technically be the bride in this scenario or it might be another person, another family member who is helping to sort of manage and choreographed the whole wedding or has their eye on it, that sort of thing.
00:22:49
Speaker 1: And what I can tell is if
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Speaker 1: the sister in law
00:22:53
Speaker 1: maybe bride is upset because this action of pulling the nuts that the father is doing didn't come through her or whether they're just upset because it was happening and they don't care about the allergy issue. They want the nuts on the table. I would think that the average person upon hearing that the nuts were removed because someone was having a severe allergic reaction to them would say, oh, ok, I understand like
00:23:19
Speaker 1: moment of confusion alleviated next time. Run it by me. If you want to change something, if you're that controlling, you know what I mean about the situation? But the putting them back out, I think just goes to a place of of real rudeness. I'm gonna say it because I know we don't often do that, but I think
00:23:41
Speaker 1: that is just it's not safe for this gentleman. I really don't think it's appropriate when a guest tells you they are experiencing a severe allergy, that you then continue to make the allergen present lizzie. I agree. I think that people are going to be
00:23:55
Speaker 1: pretty reasonable when they're presented with a health or safety issue. We always say safety comes first
00:24:01
Speaker 1: and for that same reason, I'm not going to fall the father for not
00:24:06
Speaker 1: following a social chain of command and finding the host before having the nuts removed from the table. If someone's choking, we say you knock over chairs and you give him the Heimlich maneuver, that it's important to deal with what's going on, and then you can manage the fallout that ensues afterward in whatever way you have to or need to,
00:24:28
Speaker 1: and that's where I would really lean on my etiquette communication skills, you want to get to the host of the party quickly and let them know what's happened, because it's something serious and what you've done about it, so that it's been addressed and it's taken care of
00:24:42
Speaker 1: and you're accomplishing things that are frankly more important than whether or not the nuts are on the table, because the reason they came off with something more serious happen at some point as soon as possible, people
00:24:54
Speaker 1: need to know about it. So if I'm looking for the etiquette advice to extract,
00:24:58
Speaker 1: that's the place where I think that you might be able to
00:25:03
Speaker 1: um find a lesson for next time if you were faced with something like this. Again, although again, because jakes
00:25:09
Speaker 1: taking the bigger lesson of it being really important to let people know and hopefully this won't be happening again.
00:25:15
Speaker 1: Jake for your final question of as a plus one. Should you tell your date to tell the hosts of the party that you have a severe peanut allergy? I think it's definitely worth bringing up since this allergy has severe repercussions.
00:25:32
Speaker 1: It might be that they say, oh boy, we really couldn't accommodate a guest with a severe allergy like that. And then you know,
00:25:39
Speaker 1: you're a person who is inviting you as the plus one can let you know that
00:25:43
Speaker 1: or they can say, oh don't worry, this is a facility that can handle that really well dan. It is a bit of like an extended, like you feel like hey, I already wasn't a known guest, but at the same time when plus ones are issued, we really try and think of the host as being in that gracious welcoming space and you would treat a plus one just as you would treat any other guest, correct? Absolutely. I think you have to let them know for all of those reasons
00:26:09
Speaker 1: and
00:26:10
Speaker 1: if you wanted to honor that idea that you understand there's more social distance in this invitation maybe than in the one say to your brother's wedding,
00:26:19
Speaker 1: you could always make that awareness part of the way you respond to the invitation. So in the case of being a plus one, it would be to the person who issued the plus one and you might say something, I would love to come with you. These are the dietary restrictions that it's important for people to know about.
00:26:37
Speaker 1: And I understand if that's a lot for a plus one from this event. I'd love to go with you. But I also don't want to put a lot of pressure unnecessarily or whatever it is. If you want to give them that now, I think it's a kind thing to do. If you're aware of that social distance and that what you're asking might be a big ask
00:26:57
Speaker 1: Jake. This was a doozy of a wedding with a lot of etiquette moments in it that we wish had gone better for you. But we are hoping that some of this advice will help for the next big event that you all gather for.
00:27:10
Speaker 1: Yes. You see good manners wherever there are people who respect each other and want to get along with others.
00:27:16
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
00:27:22
Speaker 1: Our next question is titled New Friend frenzy and it comes as a voicemail from julie. This is julie. Thank you for listening to my question and I hope you guys can provide some insight.
00:27:35
Speaker 1: So, I've been on a friend dating app for awhile called Bumble BFF is where you can meet other girls. Or I think Faith you guys as well, Whatever you can make friends on this app
00:27:48
Speaker 1: couple weeks ago, I befriended a girl through Bumble
00:27:51
Speaker 1: and we've hung out one on one on about three different occasions and I really like her. But I'm still getting to know her. And recently she texted me wanting to meet up and then asked if she can bring another friend that she's met from mumble
00:28:07
Speaker 1: to our hangout, so to speak.
00:28:09
Speaker 1: So I've yet to need to this person
00:28:12
Speaker 1: and I'm kind of overwhelmed by the process of making new friends to be frank with you that I don't know how to tell this new friend who wants to introduce me to another friend
00:28:25
Speaker 1: that
00:28:26
Speaker 1: well honestly just know
00:28:29
Speaker 1: I just really want to focus on meeting this one person before I start meeting multiple people because I just don't feel like I can dedicate
00:28:36
Speaker 1: time getting to know two people at once, especially if I
00:28:40
Speaker 1: I don't know if I have any commonalities with this additional person. Um So my question to you guys is how do I communicate to this acquaintance that I'm trying to make into a friend that I
00:28:53
Speaker 1: I don't want to necessarily meet their friends right now or that I don't want to meet a friend and its overall in general, what's the etiquette when you've
00:29:06
Speaker 1: made a new friend? The introduction of new friends?
00:29:11
Speaker 1: You know they're a wait period. I just feel like you should get to know somebody before
00:29:16
Speaker 1: you start trying to make them friends with other friends of yours. Um, in my mind, I just feel like you should know if you want to have a connection with that new person first.
00:29:25
Speaker 1: But um, I guess that it was a really nice gesture. I just,
00:29:31
Speaker 1: we just got back out of covid and smaller groups work so much better and one on one worked perfectly for me. So
00:29:37
Speaker 1: I really want to set boundaries,
00:29:40
Speaker 1: but I also want to acknowledge and appreciate the fact that she wants to introduce me to her friend circle. I'm just not ready for that right now.
00:29:49
Speaker 1: So
00:29:50
Speaker 1: Sorry for the ramblings and thanks for any insight you guys can provide. Have a great one. Goodbye.
00:29:56
Speaker 1: Well, before we answer any questions I want to ask julie if she'll be my friend, that's sweet. But it might be a little overwhelming for julie right now.
00:30:04
Speaker 1: Well, that's why I think julie and I would be good friends because I don't want any new friends either or I don't want any new friends to interfere with any of my new friends. I want to take my time with people. Yes. No, I think there's a big resounding, yes, julie, it's okay for you to say no
00:30:19
Speaker 1: to this added on friend and you know, I've had to do this at times. There have been times where
00:30:24
Speaker 1: I've asked someone to hang out particularly because I might want to talk to them about something specific and I know that this isn't the case for this particular friendship, it's a new friendship. But um, but been in that situation where someone said, oh yeah and can someone so come along and you've had to say, you know, I was really hoping we could hang out one on one today
00:30:44
Speaker 1: and that's it. I think it can be as simple as that. Oh, I was really, really hoping we might just spend some one on one time together. Would that be all right with you still?
00:30:52
Speaker 1: And then it's you know, it's like
00:30:55
Speaker 1: I feel like it's kind of like a soft turn down but it's still a really legitimate turned down which is okay because someone is asking you whether or not this would be okay with you,
00:31:04
Speaker 1: which is a really considerate thing for them to do. Yes. The trouble comes when people expect that the answer will always be yes. And I think having a good confident know that and and maybe if you want to only if you want to, you can let them know maybe another time you could meet some extra friends,
00:31:22
Speaker 1: but with this particular friend you might even let them know what your agenda has been with Bumble and just what it's like for you as you get to know new people. Clearly it's something both of you are interested in doing, you've invested in this app to do it. And so I think it's it's not at all off the table in terms of a conversation about how, just the same way you would have a conversation about how you plan to use a dating app and how you get to know someone on dates.
00:31:48
Speaker 1: Um these are just friend dates and I think we can apply a lot of those same rules.
00:31:52
Speaker 1: I also really liked the explanation that julie gave us at the end of her voice mail and I was thinking that would be a very reasonable sample script to offer to someone as well.
00:32:03
Speaker 1: I can't leave this question without also flipping the coin over and
00:32:08
Speaker 1: I've just also got to offer some encouragement both to julie and myself. Which is that there are people in this world who are incredible connectors who play the role of connecting people with each other and they are
00:32:23
Speaker 1: um really special people in life, their dynamic and they thrive on social interaction. And I look for those people in my life because
00:32:31
Speaker 1: I need them. I need people to make introductions, exposed me to other people, introduced me to new people because I don't always make that effort on my own.
00:32:39
Speaker 1: And just when you are ready julie, I want part of this answer to be just a little bit of encouragement
00:32:45
Speaker 1: to think about taking some of those social chances and
00:32:49
Speaker 1: um to go ahead and say yes sometimes maybe meeting those new people will be exactly what you were looking for. When you started that bumble experiment
00:32:58
Speaker 1: julie, thank you so much for what is an excellent, excellent adult friends question. I am a big fan of this topic as a whole and I really, really enjoyed getting to hear your question on the show. Hi, I'm sorry, I'm late but I ran this and jean. Oh jean, this is weird seeing that I was telling you about Hello, how do you do? And this is Jack Connors.
00:33:19
Speaker 1: Gene Banks is from over Morris. Go how do you do jean? Hello here. You can sit here. Thank you. Uh
00:33:35
Speaker 1: thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463
00:33:49
Speaker 1: You can also reach us on social media on twitter. We are at Emily Post on instagram, we are at Emily Post Institute
00:33:56
Speaker 1: and on facebook we are awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the show.
00:34:08
Speaker 1: If you love awesome etiquette, please consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette. You'll get an ads, free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content plus you'll feel great knowing that you helped keep awesome etiquette on the air
00:34:25
Speaker 1: and to those of you who are already sustaining members. Thank you so much for your support.
00:34:35
Speaker 1: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer and the topics we cover and today we have another bit of feedback for making sure that people pronounce your name correctly. Hi lizzie and dan. I have feedback on a recent episode where a woman asked for help in getting people to pronounce her name correctly.
00:34:54
Speaker 1: I recently had a volunteer working with me and I could never remember how to pronounce her last name.
00:34:59
Speaker 1: I finally asked her if there was a pneumonic device to help me.
00:35:03
Speaker 1: She said sure it rhymes with lady ever since then I've been able to remember it.
00:35:08
Speaker 1: If Kirsten could think of an easy way to remember the pronunciation of her name and then share that with individuals, they would be more likely to remember. My apologies. I don't remember how to pronounce her name. Was it Kirsten like the number 10 or Kirsten like putting something in a tin can.
00:35:26
Speaker 1: Thanks. I love your show. Suzy de
00:35:28
Speaker 1: Suzy de thank you for the feedback and I saw what you did there. I like the way you built that out and illustrated your point. Very good.
00:35:39
Speaker 1: Mhm.
00:35:39
Speaker 1: Thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please keep them coming. You can send your feedback or update two awesome etiquette, Emily Post dot com or leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463
00:36:00
Speaker 1: It's time for our post script segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette and today
00:36:06
Speaker 1: we're talking about ty and ties and we're talking about it because dan was so excited to put this section in the book and we totally ended up cutting it out of the book per hour, publishers suggestion. So we figured it needed to, it needed to breathe some life.
00:36:24
Speaker 1: It needed some recognition for existing
00:36:27
Speaker 1: dan. What what do you love so much about the accessory? That is the tie.
00:36:35
Speaker 1: Okay. What I love about the ties that I have gone through a personal journey in terms of my relation to it as an article of clothing
00:36:44
Speaker 1: and the place that I landed at is one where I really like him and I didn't always and there's some part of me that just hopes that through the work at Emily Post and talking about
00:36:56
Speaker 1: formality, dress attire, all of it, that
00:36:59
Speaker 1: maybe somewhere along the way I'll give someone else access to an idea or thought that will help them enjoy the thought of putting on a tie as opposed to dreading it. Because I've made that transition myself and I want to feel like I experienced that transition. I got you, I got you, I got you. It is the symbol of corporate conformity for so many people. It's true. It's the absolute last thing that a lot of people would ever want to put on. It really is the symbol of
00:37:29
Speaker 1: conformity of joining that system for so many people. And that's a really strong symbol. That's a really strong thing to be responding to are reacting to.
00:37:37
Speaker 1: And that's reasonable. I think in many ways it's something that
00:37:42
Speaker 1: not everyone's familiar with. It's not part of every wardrobe and
00:37:46
Speaker 1: in many ways it's something a little bit extra. It's not a functional piece of clothing, it's not your blue jeans, it's not the buttons on your shirt, it's not the
00:37:55
Speaker 1: separated legs on your pants that allow you to walk around and do different kinds of work,
00:38:00
Speaker 1: it's a flourish in many ways it's a little extra. And because it doesn't have a function that puts it into use,
00:38:10
Speaker 1: ultimately, it's it's about what it symbolizes, I was going to say, it really becomes a symbol and it is a symbol of formality in a lot of ways. It absolutely is for many people and at the same time, once you start to see it that way,
00:38:23
Speaker 1: it can be a symbol of anything that you want it to be. And for so many people that wear a tie regularly as a component of uh suit or even just an outfit with a button down shirt,
00:38:35
Speaker 1: it's often times your opportunity for expression, for color, for individuality. So within that more formal world, it's an access is the flair and when you can start to see it is that it's so much fun.
00:38:52
Speaker 1: So because I have to admit that I had, I'm so proud of my dad, like and so proud to be my dad's daughter
00:39:00
Speaker 1: moment when you learned my dad's favorite tie knot, which is the half Windsor.
00:39:06
Speaker 1: And for me it was so delightful because when I was a little girl, I loved dressing up in my dad's clothing. I loved it so much. I went for Halloween as my dad one year and I like had his briefcase and I'd work, we know I'd like put on his jackets and of course they'd be down to my knees
00:39:25
Speaker 1: and I'd have to wear suspenders with his pants, which would be like rolled up to mid thigh because I was so much shorter than him, you know, And like, I don't mean my thighs, I mean the pant leg thighs and then they hung down to my shoes. Um but I loved learning to tie that tie, not, I still know how to do it. I really appreciated it when I had wait, wait staff jobs and I had to to wear a tie or a bow tie and I knew how to do that.
00:39:52
Speaker 1: Talk about different tie knots and especially our faith the half Windsor. So that moment when I learned the partial or half Windsor from, your father was
00:40:03
Speaker 1: somewhere in my mid thirties when I'd come back to work at Emily Post and I'd gone through most of my life with the standard time. Not, I learned it in high school and it worked great for
00:40:13
Speaker 1: nights we had varsity hockey games and you have to want to tie to school,
00:40:17
Speaker 1: got me through college interviews and, and things like that. But when I came to work for Emily Post and I was wearing a tie much more often and I was looking to up my wardrobe game. I was starting to pay attention to things like
00:40:30
Speaker 1: the widths of collars, whether you're going with spread collars or point collars and
00:40:34
Speaker 1: how to complete an outfit like a suit and the tie was always a choice and figuring out a good tie knot was all of a sudden important to me. And your father very casually just mentioned, oh, I've got a time, I use all the time. It's great. You're gonna love it.
00:40:49
Speaker 1: And
00:40:50
Speaker 1: he showed me a slight variation on the standard. Not, it's got one extra loop and you end up with a not that's not much bigger than the standard. Not. But it's um, it holds, it's got a little bit of body to it. It's not as thick or bulky, is the Windsor, which is really meant for a wide spread collar and frankly to fill out better on a
00:41:09
Speaker 1: water man than me. Sure, sure. So as I'm looking for for, for things that work with a sort of a lean frame, longneck point caller, I was wanting something that wasn't as likely to go crooked as a standard. Not, but that also didn't get as big as the Windsor and that half Windsor, that partial Windsor is. So
00:41:32
Speaker 1: um, it's perfect. What can I say if you set a dimple in it, it holds for hours, you can kind of shape the not with your fingers so you can build a nice tight little triangle or a little wider triangle to fit in different colors. You can sort of shape the not up as you form it.
00:41:48
Speaker 1: It's the little tip. I love to give people who are at that
00:41:52
Speaker 1: phase of their wardrobe development when I'm talking to groups of professionals, the idea that
00:41:58
Speaker 1: this particular not just functional, it's going to work for you and you're gonna look good in it and it's really nice to have that kind of confidence when you're getting yourself dressed. It can make wearing a tie
00:42:08
Speaker 1: or at least putting it on a much easier thing to do.
00:42:11
Speaker 1: So we've heard a little bit about the standard. Not a little bit about, well we've heard a bunch about the half Windsor or the partial Windsor. What about the full Windsor? When, when might you break that out? You mentioned like on a full spread collar. Are there any other reasons or is there any kind of,
00:42:27
Speaker 1: I don't want to say emotion, but feeling or style or does it say something about you if you're going for that full? Not,
00:42:35
Speaker 1: I think it's fun. I think it's fun to know how to do, but it's, it's a big process to go through every day. It's kind of a special occasion. Not for a lot of people or
00:42:45
Speaker 1: a not for particular outfits that really do present that tie when you're wearing something um, that you really want to show off or highlight. It can be, it can be a good choice, but you know me, I always like things that are a little understated because what do you think about the tie clip or the type in?
00:43:04
Speaker 1: Can be a really nice edition. Usually a little more formal though. Yeah,
00:43:08
Speaker 1: it does it, but it can also be really useful if you're wearing your tie and you're moving around a lot. I mean it's a functional accessory. The piece of etiquette advice, The entire advice is just not to over accessorize. You don't want to
00:43:22
Speaker 1: um have too many elements on top of a formal outfit, but
00:43:27
Speaker 1: tie clip or pin can be nice. I have to say. I was always a really, really big fan when I worked at Michael Kehoe's in Burlington, which is like a men's clothing store, High end men's clothing store. It was the bow ties
00:43:39
Speaker 1: and I like I loved wearing a bow tie to work When I worked. It was so much fun to learn how to tie it. It's way simpler than you think.
00:43:49
Speaker 1: And it also was like,
00:43:51
Speaker 1: there is something so jauntily expressive about a bow tie when it's not in a formal setting, like a tuxedo that I find so wonderful. It like it brings a smile to my face. I still have two of the bow ties from when I worked there in my accessories, like accessories closet in my closet with my accessories
00:44:12
Speaker 1: and they're, they're delightful. Do you have any have any favorite bow ties in your wardrobe right now?
00:44:18
Speaker 1: Well, I mean obviously I love the one that goes with my tux, but as you point out, it's so awesome to get the bow tie off that formal government and to give it a little more used to use it in different ways. I still want to get you into the boat. I think you look so good in one.
00:44:34
Speaker 1: Do you think you'd be a little bit a little bill, nye ish? Like, come on. It could be, it could be good. It could be good.
00:44:40
Speaker 1: I'm a little small for a boat. I always felt like it would make me look a little childish, like a little kitty in some way you don't think so. We'll find the right one. We'll find the right one, a little more gray and I'll start wearing the bow ties. It's just a little more great. I like it. I like it
00:44:55
Speaker 1: because please tell our listeners one of the best resources that you found for tying a tie so that they can go experiment practice,
00:45:04
Speaker 1: get some inspiration If you're interested in seeing some of the knots that I've been talking about today, illustrated or described really well, I would recommend the art of manliness. It's a great website if you're looking for things like how to polish leather shoes or tie tie knots
00:45:22
Speaker 1: or wait a month and I might have convinced an to do some articles and videos of tie tying on Emily post dot com
00:45:31
Speaker 1: to be continued
00:45:38
Speaker 1: by taking care of all the little details in advance.
00:45:41
Speaker 1: He can look forward to the evening with confidence.
00:45:44
Speaker 1: Yeah,
00:45:52
Speaker 1: we like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing the world and now that we're socializing, that's really happening again and it can come in so many forms. And today we have a salute from Jill hi lizzie and dan. I've got to salute this week for an upstairs neighbor Diane.
00:46:11
Speaker 1: I just moved in here about a week ago and she's already been so kind today. I injured myself going down the stairs and she not only took me to the hospital, but has checked in on me a few times and offered to get anything I need from the store.
00:46:24
Speaker 1: I don't have any family or friends nearby. So this was a much appreciated kindness,
00:46:30
Speaker 1: chill.
00:46:30
Speaker 1: Oh Jill. That's fantastic. It's nice to feel that sense of community right away in a new space.
00:46:38
Speaker 1: Jill. I really hope that this person, this good samaritan listens to awesome etiquette or that if they don't, you play this salute for them because that is such a kind salute. Thank you for sharing.
00:46:50
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening and thank you to everyone who sent us something and everyone who supports us on Patreon, please connect with us and share this show with your friends, family and co workers, however you like to share podcasts and if you're so inclined spreading the word on social media doesn't hurt either.
00:47:08
Speaker 1: You can send us your next question feedback or salute by email to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a message or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463 on twitter. We are at Emily Post on instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette and the Emily Post Institute, please consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette.
00:47:36
Speaker 1: You can also subscribe to the ads version of our show on Spotify or your favorite podcast app and please consider leaving us a review. It helps our show ranking which helps more people find awesome etiquette. Our show is edited by chris Albertine, an assistant produced by Brigitte Dowd. Thanks chris Christie Bridget
00:48:04
Speaker 1: and
00:48:08
Speaker 1: I hope
