Episode 361 - The Next Load

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Speaker 1: maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social, could you see that's old fashioned,

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Speaker 1: watch how busy post and then post to act as host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person, real friendliness.

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Speaker 1: Mhm

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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to awesome etiquette

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Speaker 2: where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty.

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Speaker 1: On today's show, we take your questions on unique tipping situations, inviting close colleagues to a wedding, addressing letters to same sex couples and communal laundry room etiquette

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Speaker 2: for awesome etiquette sustaining members. Our question of the week is about depositing a wedding gift check before thanking the person who gave it to you

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Speaker 1: plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a postscript on remote work courtesy. All

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Speaker 2: that's coming up,

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Speaker 1: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute,

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Speaker 2: I'm lizzie Post

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Speaker 1: and I'm dan Post sending

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Speaker 1: welcome back because

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Speaker 2: thank you, thank you. I was, I was just about to say, I feel like I have to start this episode by apologizing for how I sound because I am, I'm like

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Speaker 2: post allergy hit. I got hit really badly with allergies when I was down on the vineyard and it's back in Vermont, it's like slowly receding, but I feel like I lost my voice due to that and singing very loudly in the car for about five hours

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Speaker 1: straight.

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Speaker 1: Well the second part sounds like more fun than the first part usually

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Speaker 2: is usually is usually is.

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Speaker 2: Um but it was a, it was a good vacation. It was really nice to be with family. I thought of so many of our audience members when it came to me sharing a house with my folks for a week and then adding in my sister and her husband and two kids who are both under the age of four and just all the, um,

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Speaker 2: all the different things we talk about in terms of balance and hosting and guesting etiquette and sharing vacation times and family dynamics. It was,

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Speaker 2: it was all present. It was all ripe and wonderful. It was kind of nice to be living through some of our questions and advice

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Speaker 1: that does sound like so much fun. Don't worry too much about how you sound, you sound fine and we all appreciate your willingness to get on the money.

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Speaker 2: So

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Speaker 2: like I'm here and my brains here, I'm awake, I'm ready for work. I've got to say I did after all of the work that you and I did to get the edits on the manuscript back in and just the hard core press that, that we were under the vacation felt fantastic, but I came back so hungry to dive into the rest of our business. Like I'm so excited to be here doing the podcast today. I'm excited for some things we've been talking about to help support our podcast audience in the future that we're finally gonna get to do. I'm excited about train the trainer and you know, getting back to really trying to push seminars like I'm just, I am excited to be doing the work of Emily Post again. So like vacation must have achieved what it should have. I am loving

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Speaker 1: this right now. I'm thinking vacations more vacation. Let's do it

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Speaker 2: because you take more vacation so that you can be more motivated.

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Speaker 2: But no, it's, it's, it's all, yeah, no, probably and we probably do need to learn that lesson. We had a lot of work to get through this year though,

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Speaker 2: but I am really grateful for it, grateful for you to hold down the fort awesome. That pooch got to join on the podcast last week and yeah, I don't know, but I am stoked to get to our questions today.

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Speaker 1: Well

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Speaker 1: shall we get to some listener questions?

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Speaker 2: Let's do it. Let's dive in.

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Speaker 1: Let's do it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Mhm

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Speaker 2: Yeah,

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Speaker 2: awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions. You can email them to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com, Leave a voicemail or text at 802858 kinds. That's 8028585463

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Speaker 2: or you can find us on social media on twitter. We're at Emily post install on instagram were at Emily Post institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media posts so that we know you want your question on the show.

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Speaker 1: Yeah

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Speaker 1: yeah.

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Speaker 1: Mhm.

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Speaker 1: Our first question is titled extra bucks for Botox.

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Speaker 1: Hi, I have a tipping question that I have researched online but I can't seem to find a consistent answer.

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Speaker 1: I receive occasional services and medical spas. These are beauty services such as injectables, think Botox

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Speaker 1: that are performed by professionals like nurses.

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Speaker 1: I know that it is customary to tip for beauty services performed by aestheticians and hairdressers and that it is not customary to tip for medical services performed by doctors, but I'm not sure what to do when I receive medical spa services.

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Speaker 1: The last time I had these services and paid with a credit card, the card reader asked me to choose a tipping amount and I wasn't sure what to do. So I left the modest tip.

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Speaker 1: I'd appreciate some clarity about what to do in the future. Thank you lisa

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Speaker 2: lisa. This is where I have to admit my ignorance. I am, I am unsure cause about this one. I would love for any of our audience who experiences spa treatments like this that are like the medical side of spa treatments as opposed to I think of more like the beauty or

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Speaker 2: I don't know because you could, you could argue the medical ones are self care too. But side of side of it, you know, so the difference between getting hair treatments and wraps and manicures and pedicures and

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Speaker 2: um massages which are all typical things that we would we tip for in a spot scenario versus getting Botox or fillers or other kind of

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Speaker 2: injectables or things like that, who's reading about something where they use like these threads to like pull your face in certain directions. Anyway, there's all kinds of stuff you can do to look and feel fabulous and

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Speaker 2: I tend to place those, the ladder that we just talked about in the medical category and wouldn't feel compelled to tip on them. Um, even if I was receiving them at a spa treatment place and I would imagine that the credit card reader automatically prompts

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Speaker 2: the tipping because it's a, it's a place where some of the other services always or often receive those tips,

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Speaker 2: but I think that to me it's, I would still be in the camp of thinking of the Botox and the fillers and the things like that as non tipped services.

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Speaker 2: I need audience participation here. I need to hear from other people unless because you've been secretly going to the spa and getting Botox that I don't know about an irregular old hat at this type of tipping. I would love to hear more voices on this.

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Speaker 1: No, I have less experience than you and I love the idea of our audience helping to inform us on this one. I would call this a strong candidate for some feedback.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: do have some deep worry lines on my forehead and I go back and forth from thinking that they're awesome and make me look distinguished and thinking that no, they're not so awesome,

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Speaker 2: but you haven't broken the seal and got the Botox yet. Not

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Speaker 1: yet. One reason I like your idea about hearing from our audience on this one is that I also thought it was a great question. I thought the etiquette ground was well identified that there are these

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Speaker 1: two different expectations and their well described in the question, medical situations usually don't

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Speaker 1: the spa salon situations you often do and I went the other way with it.

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Speaker 2: I went in

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Speaker 1: my mind, oh, I'm gonna think about the venue or where it's happening and precisely because I would be at a salon or spa and so many other people in those

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Speaker 1: situations are getting tips and it's part of the culture and the way the system

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Speaker 2: works.

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Speaker 2: I

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Speaker 1: was thinking I could fall in that direction, but I was so unsure about it. I also thought that our best advice about tipping would apply here, which is that if you're ever unsure whether it would be appreciated. You can ask,

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Speaker 2: you can always ask,

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Speaker 1: being aware that a lot of people are really gonna like tips and they're probably going to tell you yes, they're much appreciated. But then you avoid the worst mistake which is the mistake of offending someone by giving them money for something that they feel they're being well paid for already and

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Speaker 1: and that's what you're trying to avoid

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Speaker 1: with the doctor or nurse situation in a more medical environment.

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Speaker 1: So if you're not offering that offense,

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Speaker 1: Then I think it really becomes up to you. And I was using our usual guides of anything up to 20% of the cost of a service being within a range that people would consider 20 being the high end of that range and maybe

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Speaker 1: nothing even really being expected every time but it being appreciated.

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Speaker 2: So I really, really like your idea of thinking about it as because it's happening within this type of venue, go for it this way. Like even though I was saying like boy if I was caught in this moment and didn't know what to do, like I probably wouldn't tip for these services I would for this. I also had forgotten are amazing advice of ask if you're on shore. I've clearly been on vacation, but I think that's a really great, great way to go because then you're really kind of getting it straight from the horse's mouth, you know, like what, what is the appropriate thing, what do you all find more appropriate?

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Speaker 2: And I really like, you know, I'm a big fan of the ask, I can't believe I forgot it as an option.

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Speaker 2: And of course at the end of the day, what you really want is to feel good and confident about the tipping that you're doing. And so um, I think getting that answer via that ask is something that really then lets you kind of not have any of these little you know, nagging questions in your mind and instead you can feel really confident about either leaving a tip or not leaving a tip

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Speaker 1: lisa thank you so much for this question. Clearly you've given us a lot to think and talk about and I hope that our audience finds it interesting and will join the discussion as well.

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Speaker 1: And you

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Speaker 1: okay

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Speaker 1: by following these simple rules of body care and grooming

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Speaker 1: you too will achieve that quality of appearance,

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Speaker 1: that feeling of well being

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Speaker 1: so important to make your dreams of happiness come true.

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Speaker 1: Mhm.

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Speaker 1: Mhm.

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Speaker 1: Mhm.

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Speaker 2: Mhm.

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Speaker 2: Our next question is titled Work and weddings.

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Speaker 2: Hello, lizzie and Daniel thanks in advance for your help with this question on engagement parties.

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Speaker 2: My fiance works as an attorney with just a few in office colleagues, however, she has very close relationships with many of her clients.

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Speaker 2: The question is whether clients and similar close professional relationships qualify under the co worker exception to the rule that everyone invited to a pre wedding celebration must also be invited to the wedding itself.

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Speaker 2: It seems to me that the answer should be yes for legitimately close professional relationships, especially in the context of modern working environments, where people can be freelancers, independent consultants, etcetera,

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Speaker 2: but still interact closely with a small group of people day in and day out with whom they'd like to celebrate,

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Speaker 2: but we need your help to make sure we aren't committing any faux paws.

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Speaker 2: Thank you again for your help,

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Speaker 1: brian brian, thank you so much for the question and thank you for helping us to take a traditional etiquette and try to imagine what it looks like in a very contemporary context

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Speaker 1: lizzie. Do you think it would be helpful to talk about where the idea of a workplace exception carve out

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Speaker 2: comes from? Yes, I think so. And tip typically the workplace exception carve out comes only in the form of showers.

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Speaker 2: Often it's not so much for an engagement party.

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Speaker 2: I almost think I've never heard of a work bachelorette or bachelor party. Um so it's, it's really usually safe for showers and the idea being that you might not have invited your work colleagues to your wedding and therefore they're not on the list of pre wedding parties. But sometimes they get together because as brian mentioned, you worked day in and day out together

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Speaker 2: and they get together and decide they'd really like to celebrate you and the shower is usually the type of party they choose to celebrate you with and so they do a little work shower and it's just the team from work. I don't think you would do colleagues or sorry, you would do colleagues, you would not do clients

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Speaker 2: and it's often just a very intimate group

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Speaker 2: and that's kind of it, but it's done with the group itself, recognizing already that they are not invited to the wedding and would still like to do this

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Speaker 2: if that helps to clarify.

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Speaker 1: And I'm imagining a very traditional office setting where people spend days together in the same space, the same buildings and it's a natural outgrowth of that, that proximity in that

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Speaker 1: closeness that comes with that work relationship that you would know that somebody's engaged or getting married and it would make a lot of sense to want to honor that and recognize it whether or not as a whole workplace, you could be invited to a wedding.

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Speaker 2: I feel like if you're close enough with your clients that you would probably just invite them to the wedding, you know what I mean? As opposed to something I'm imagining this world that brian's painting and I don't have to imagine it because it's here, it's now where people do have people that they are very regularly interacting with, but it's not your traditional office setting.

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Speaker 2: And I'm curious for me what I see, that makes so much sense about the office party will say the office shower is that those people all see each other during the day too and I'm wondering if it would feel really different for someone who is like a freelancer

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Speaker 2: who might work with a lot of different people one on one every day, but they don't all work with each other.

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Speaker 2: I feel like that might feel a little more disconnected to me than um, and, and like not a group that would together get together and decide to throw a party, you know, in your honor, but instead it sounds more like it would be you wanting to do something with them

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Speaker 2: and bringing them all together. And it just for some reason that doesn't quite feel like the same thing to me,

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Speaker 1: I hear how the two aren't functioning in quite the same way, because the thing that connects one group is a shared experience and the thing that connects the other group is you and not necessarily a shared experience or even a connection with each other, although I can imagine

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Speaker 1: closely networked groups of people that might develop those kinds of relationships even in a distributed remote work consultant kind of landscape

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Speaker 2: dan, I think that's a better way to parse it out if you have a team that works remotely and wants to do that, but it's, it's that idea that it's the whole team together kind of pulling together to throw the party for the honoree,

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Speaker 2: that I think maybe better defines this workplace exception shower, a group that tends to emerge in our lives.

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Speaker 1: I like that. And I also am curious about the question of whether the nature of the party shifts from a shower to an engagement party,

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Speaker 1: if that starts to broaden the way you might approach it. Although

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Speaker 1: oftentimes the traditional etiquette says if you're invited to engagement party are also invited to the wedding, but if removing that expectation of gifts, maybe makes it easier to broaden your thinking about it just a little bit or

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Speaker 1: is it really still just awkward because you're essentially having a party

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Speaker 1: to celebrate a thing and then celebrate someone don't come to

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Speaker 2: the wedding. That's, you know, it's a kind of impending moment of the engagement.

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Speaker 1: I really like your idea about assessing who's having to do the organizing and how functional and easy that is, is being a good way to, to think about whether it makes sense or is a natural choice

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Speaker 2: dana have to say I really, really like getting to think hard about the idea of of who's throwing this party, Why is it happening? And who would be on the guest list? It felt like a good first week back challenge in the world of etiquette

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Speaker 2: brian, thank you so much for this question. We hope our answer helps you plan out those pre wedding parties and congratulations to you and your fiance. We hope the wedding is just as beautifully as we're sure you're both dreaming it will

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Speaker 1: be.

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Speaker 1: Yeah,

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Speaker 1: our next question is about same sex salutations.

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Speaker 1: Hello, awesome etiquette friends. You may have answered this question before. So my apologies if I've missed it.

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Speaker 1: My life is increasingly blessed with a growing number of gay friends and while I'm excited to update classic social protocols. I wanted to run my solution past you in hopes of a seal of approval or feedback. If I'm off the mark.

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Speaker 1: My question arises from addressing correspondence to gay couples, particularly when there is no clear convention for the order that should be used. For example, they are mrs and mrs letter getter rather than dr and mrs have no,

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Speaker 1: usually I know both partners equally well or I am hoping the lesser known person and I will also be able to develop a warm friendship and I don't want anyone to feel slighted in any event.

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Speaker 1: My typical practices to address the correspondence to the couple by first listing the person whom I know better or the person who invited me to the event about which I'm writing.

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Speaker 1: I then reversed the order in the salutation ending up with an envelope addressed to Mr J, old friend and mr L Newman

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Speaker 1: containing a note with a salutation that reads dear Lucas and Joshua.

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Speaker 1: Do you have thoughts on this solution? I know from Emily Post com that the ordering of names is more flexible than in yesteryear,

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Speaker 1: but if you see any faux pas in this approach. I'd be delighted to learn more. Thanks as always. And best wishes rob in Salt Lake City

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Speaker 2: rob in Salt Lake City. Great question. You are absolutely right that the order of the names does not matter at this stage. You can, you can put them in any order.

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Speaker 2: I don't know whether consistency to that order is necessary. I don't think it is,

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Speaker 2: but for me, I often do the same thing that you do, Robin dan. I think you do too. Which is you write to the person either who did the inviting or you write to the person first. You know, in order of names, you write to the person first who you know better.

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Speaker 2: And I feel like that's really common for a lot of, a lot of people. And I don't think switching the names would

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Speaker 2: the necessary if that's the route that you're going, I don't know, daniel for clarity.

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Speaker 1: I want to be, you're talking about the switching of the order between the addressing of the envelope and then the salutation. So we

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Speaker 2: mean the outer envelope that you use to send it through the mail versus the salutation inside that greets the two people whom you're talking to. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I had a couple of thoughts that occurred to me as I tried to imagine the reason for doing that as a consistent practice. And one thought I had was that it's just kind to give each person the priority. That's a way to do that. And then my other thought was that

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Speaker 1: oftentimes we take a

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Speaker 1: an approach or an attitude that says I want to honor a guest or a visitor totally and maybe when you get to that more informal salutation that

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Speaker 1: it's, it's nice to acknowledge the person who maybe you don't know as well first and that was those were the two thoughts that occurred to me as

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Speaker 1: possible reasons for taking this approach and

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Speaker 1: I don't think that anybody's gonna necessarily be looking for either consistency one way or another. I think more about what would be my reasoning or someone's reasoning for doing this and I think both of those would be good, good reasons or good thoughts.

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Speaker 2: I don't think

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Speaker 2: anyone is going to have a problem with rob doing this. Like I'm not sure, like I don't think there is, like rob asks us if you see any faux pas in this approach, I'd be delighted to learn more.

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Speaker 2: I'm not finding a real faux pas and it, other than the inconsistency isn't a faux pas. And so it's like, you know what I mean? It's like, I don't, I don't think there's anything wrong with doing this, I think is totally a choice that you could, you could make for yourself. The

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Speaker 1: only thing I could think of that would sort of

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Speaker 1: add on to the approach would be

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Speaker 1: to be really sure that you honor whatever you can observe or find out about how someone would like to be. They

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Speaker 2: prefer to be. Yes, absolutely.

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Speaker 1: If this couple consistently presents themselves as

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Speaker 1: alphabetical Lucas and Joshua, Joshua and Lucas, I would probably mirror what I see from them. If I see them switching it up, I would probably switch it up myself.

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Speaker 2: I think when I'm a, I got dan and podujevo. I forget what it was, maybe it was your first anniversary or something, but a little a rubber stamp,

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Speaker 2: it was for your wedding shower. It was one of those, you know, self inking stamps that has your address on it. And I remember having to ask you, are you dan and Putin or Putin dan? And like I just, I had to ask ahead of the head of the gift. I said, I got to know like, what do you guys prefer? What do you want to see on your addresses?

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Speaker 1: We've said this before. Oftentimes something will develop because that's the way it sounds best or it rolls off the tongue easily for people over there. There's a rhythm to the way words are pronounced and ordered.

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Speaker 1: People get used to

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Speaker 1: rob. Thank you so much for your thoughtful approach and for your question to the show names and titles and how to address people is such classic

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Speaker 1: etiquette territory and lizzie. And I certainly spent a lot of time thinking about all of the different ways that this is changing for the 100 year celebration of Emily Post etiquette, which comes out in 2022 year,

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Speaker 2: in a month, a year in a month.

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Speaker 1: I think that you will be delighted to see the way we've approached a lot of these topics in that book and really can't wait for that manuscript to be out there for everyone to be responding to thank you so much for the question. We hope that our answer helps. I don't know how you do it. So I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: Yeah,

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Speaker 2: our next question is in voicemail form which we love so much and it's titled Caring for clothes.

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Speaker 2: This is a voicemail from Maggie.

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Speaker 2: Hello, My name is Maggie and I'm calling from Chicago Illinois.

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Speaker 2: I live in an apartment building and I have an etiquette dilemma regarding washing machine.

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Speaker 2: If I go down to the washing area and there is a machine that has been done, how long do I need to wait before I can put my stuff in? I waited 30 minutes.

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Speaker 2: Was that enough time? Do I need to wait longer? I've heard some people only take two minutes. Any advice would be extremely helpful. Thank you so much. I love your show. Goodbye Maggie, thank you so much. This is a fabulous question and I have to admit it might be one that stumps me. I get so nervous about this

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Speaker 2: dan. The practical side of me is closer done, take them out, put them on

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Speaker 2: like put them on the top of the dryer. Like you know, use your dryer, get this done. People need to use this facility. The other part of me is just like that, someone's private clothing. You don't touch it. Like if they're leaving it, that's just a bummer. I like it. I would be sitting there like for the half hour that Maggie waited. I would be like, I like one hand to the door to open it, the other hand going no, like back and forth and back and forth. It would be going on in my head. I love laundry rooms in apartment buildings that have signs that say after 15 minutes, if no one has removed the clothes from the dryer, please feel free or

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Speaker 2: here's a, you know, like put your name and your number on the dryer and when your clothes are done, someone will call, you know, to move you along or like whatever. I love,

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Speaker 2: I love the dorm, the dorms and the apartment complexes, the shared laundry rooms that actually put up some kind of a system for people to help navigate this because

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Speaker 2: it's people's personal clothing, like it does feel kind of weird to have someone else, like either touching your stuff for you, touching their stuff. It's you know, it's like,

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Speaker 2: it's intimates

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Speaker 1: lizzie post.

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Speaker 1: I think it is so awesome that you just want tickets. You want little signs that tell people what to do I do. This is the Entomology, this is the origin of the word etiquette for anyone out there who's not familiar. It is french for a little sign. Little ticket tells you what to do in a given situation so that you know,

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Speaker 1: I went through the exact same process that you did. I thought to myself, I don't want to touch anyone else's laundry, I want nothing to do with it. I don't wanna I don't wanna hold clean and I don't want to be responsible for it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to touch it, someone else's private stuff and

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Speaker 1: you might never wash your clothes if you're talking about a one or a two machine room

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Speaker 1: and you're just trying to time it or you go down and if you're not there when it gets turned over, maybe someone else gets ahead of you. It's

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Speaker 1: the practical component there starts to sort of compel me to think about getting over. My tendency to not want to interfere or touch anything that belongs to someone else. In this case they've left it in a public place. True

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Speaker 1: in some ways how public is it? Guess what? A little sign would be so helpful. I would do one of a couple of things if I was

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Speaker 1: unsure of what to do, I would start leaving that little note that you talked about. Maybe you could start to build that culture just by example. So call me here,

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Speaker 1: ring me in this apartment

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Speaker 2: totally. And maybe that may be leaving the number out in a

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Speaker 1: public place isn't such a good idea isn't advisable, but it might be just the right

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Speaker 2: thing. How about if you feel comfortable with it. Leaving a note that says please feel free to move if I'm not here in the dryers done, don't want to hold anyone up from getting their closed,

00:27:06

Speaker 2: you know there laundry finished like that would be you know, it's kind of like a deal with it for me, but it's also like a reality check. This happens all the time. People forget they, you know, whatever it happens a lot in laundry rooms and so it might, if you're comfortable with having someone remove your stuff, maybe that would be something that you could do

00:27:27

Speaker 2: that would help out someone like a Maggie who shows up and there's you know a dryer that could be in use but isn't because someone's closer in it,

00:27:34

Speaker 1: that would be a very direct way to start to try to generate that kind of culture. You could also ask the building manager superintendent to put a sign like that up to let you know if there is a policy that you should be paying attention to, if they've never thought about a policy maybe to think about it and put a little sign like that up to help everyone out.

00:27:54

Speaker 2: I love it. I love it.

00:27:55

Speaker 2: Okay, so what should Maggie do though, if there's no sign, how long do you wait, what would you do you think? It's just discretionary? And it's like each situation you've got to go with your gut and as long as you can stand it and

00:28:09

Speaker 1: here's my thinking, I think that the practicality actually pushes the question, My general instinct would be to be patient

00:28:16

Speaker 1: and that would be best for everyone. But if for whatever reason I can't be patient, I'm getting ready for a certain something or I've got work the next day and I need to have this washed and I need to be in bed at a reasonable hour. I might take those moments where

00:28:34

Speaker 1: I'm compelled to do it and I think that's totally reasonable, totally.

00:28:38

Speaker 2: Maggie, thank you so much for being a fan of the show and we really hope our answer helps.

00:28:43

Speaker 1: She selects it, choosing perhaps 30 minutes drying time depending on the load.

00:28:50

Speaker 1: And with this single setting she automatically gets the proper safe drying temperature for wash and wear.

00:29:02

Speaker 2: Thank

00:29:05

Speaker 1: you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463. You can also reach us on social media on twitter, We are at Emily Post install on instagram, we are at Emily Post Institute

00:29:24

Speaker 1: and on facebook we are awesome etiquette. Just remember use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the show.

00:29:34

Speaker 2: If you love awesome etiquette please consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette. You'll get an ads free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content plus you'll feel great knowing that you helped to keep awesome etiquette on the air

00:29:52

Speaker 2: and to those of you who are already sustaining members, we can't thank you enough for your support.

00:29:58

Speaker 1: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer in the topics we cover today. We have feedback from Laurel on episode 323 and the childfree couple who felt like accidental babysitters.

00:30:11

Speaker 2: Hello, I've discovered your podcast during this past year and have now listened from episode one all the way up to 3 23. It's been a quest.

00:30:21

Speaker 2: My kids are now teenagers, but in my experience, it's totally fine to tell kids that you're done playing and they should go play with the other kids. Adults do that all the time, especially since we are older and don't have the energy they do. It's totally reasonable to engage for a few minutes and play for a bit and then say, wow, I'm just so tired now. I'm gonna go sit and talk to your mom and dad for a while. Why don't you continue to play with the other kids?

00:30:45

Speaker 2: It sounds as though these people have not voiced their desire to be left alone at any point to the kids, which is probably why the parents haven't said anything. They've probably looked at these folks playing with the kids and genuinely thought they liked it because they didn't never say no at any point.

00:31:00

Speaker 2: Once you set limits and boundaries, then it's easier and much more likely that the parents will also shoe their kids away after a certain point. Oh honey, you've bothered these people long enough. Why don't you go play over there for a little while? I hope that helps them out. Laurel

00:31:16

Speaker 1: laurel. Thank you for the feedback. I want you to know that when I read it, I read it as, as advice to me as a parent of father. And

00:31:25

Speaker 1: it's so often the case that we find ourselves with little Children and for some reason there's something about what they're doing that

00:31:32

Speaker 1: is bothersome and the reminder that they are just Children and you can set very clear boundaries with them and like the

00:31:40

Speaker 1: little people of integrity that they are, they will probably understand and respect those things totally. At least it's a good place to start from.

00:31:48

Speaker 2: Totally, totally, totally

00:31:50

Speaker 2: laurel. Thank you for the feedback and thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please keep them coming. You can send your feedback or update to awesome, dedicated Emily post dot com or leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kinds. That's 8028585463.

00:32:06

Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:32:13

Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:32:14

Speaker 2: Mm.

00:32:16

Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:32:16

Speaker 2: It's time for our post script segment where we dive deeper into a topic of Vatican and today we're going to talk about the future of remote work and the emerging courtesies because this is actually one of our

00:32:29

Speaker 2: newer topics with people. ever since we started working remotely and now that we see that we're going to continue to work remotely for quite some time

00:32:39

Speaker 2: or just for for the future. You dan have really had people asking for this in our business etiquette seminars, uh you know, the ones we've been doing online and there's actually quite a lot to say about remote work and doing it well and successfully both for the home,

00:32:55

Speaker 2: the people who it impacts at home and for your co workers.

00:32:59

Speaker 1: There is absolutely no question that this has been our most requested training topic for probably a year. Now, I would say that more than 50% of what we're asked to talk about with audiences professional audiences is

00:33:14

Speaker 1: the emerging courtesies around remote work and really figuring out standards that work well for people.

00:33:21

Speaker 1: And it has been so interesting, we talked on this show about how communication is one of those areas where manners change and evolve the most rapidly and that every time there's a major technology shift or social shift that our communication manners shift and

00:33:37

Speaker 1: we've recently lived through one of those point.

00:33:41

Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

00:33:42

Speaker 1: So

00:33:44

Speaker 1: one thing I always acknowledged with audiences is that when people were thrown into this environment, there was a lot of discovery that was going on, there was a lot of experimentation and people were giving each other a lot of latitude and

00:33:58

Speaker 1: that lasted for a period of time,

00:34:01

Speaker 1: but from our perspective at the Emily Post Institute I watched the kinds of questions that we got asked and the kinds of

00:34:08

Speaker 1: um difficulties and problems that people were facing over about a six month period start to force people out of that attitude of leniency and real acceptance of anything and really start to look for of all these things we've been experimenting with and trying what works, what's functional, what what helps us use these tools to get our work done

00:34:32

Speaker 1: and the expectation that people do those things well is starting to be a real professional standard and it's something that organizations are looking to be sure everyone understands and understands clearly

00:34:43

Speaker 1: and it's something that individuals want to know because they want to know how to do this well and they want to know how to meet those standards, whether they're explicit or whether there

00:34:52

Speaker 1: um like so much of etiquette often unstated expectations but that really affect how we function and how we work together.

00:35:00

Speaker 1: So

00:35:01

Speaker 1: I thought we'd look at three specific areas today that are three points of focus.

00:35:07

Speaker 1: One

00:35:08

Speaker 1: is I think obvious when you say it, but isn't the first thing that comes to people's minds and that's how people use calendars and network calendars,

00:35:18

Speaker 2: it's

00:35:20

Speaker 1: become critically important. It is so so so important and it has to do with how people can find you and how people can schedule with you and count on you and how you share your schedule and your availability

00:35:33

Speaker 1: and when there is flexibility in the workday, how accountable you are to that calendar,

00:35:39

Speaker 1: how current it is, how specific it is, whether people are using it to manage both personal and professional aspects of their lives, whether those things are integrated in a way

00:35:50

Speaker 1: that people can see everything that they need to see, but not see things that they shouldn't be seen,

00:35:54

Speaker 2: but can still see when your time is blocked, even if it's something you shouldn't be seeing. Right.

00:36:00

Speaker 1: Exactly. And now you're getting into all of the little granular courtesies I'm painting with broad strokes. Sorry,

00:36:07

Speaker 2: I don't mean to go you go specific right away but it's such a thing.

00:36:11

Speaker 1: No, and you paint the picture of the kinds of issues that people face as you really start to get into it. And oftentimes the answers are different. They're different if you're working on this platform or that platform. But the basic ideas are very consistent however, you're using calendars and it's one of those places where people are adding focus and the better you are at, it,

00:36:32

Speaker 1: it becomes a real differentiator. It becomes an opportunity to set yourself apart. Another area that is really important to remote work is one that I think is the one that jumps to most people's minds most immediately and that's the video call or conference and that's how we simulate that face to face experience or that in person experience to the

00:36:53

Speaker 1: best of our ability when we can't actually be together. The big piece of advice for the video or conference call. And I can't even believe I'm saying it, but I've been asked to say it so many times now, I've started to accept this is the most important piece of advice and that if there is a meeting, that's a video conference or meeting,

00:37:13

Speaker 1: turn on your camera,

00:37:15

Speaker 2: that the expectation, yeah, if we're doing it via video, the expectation as we're seeing each other as otherwise, we do a phone call,

00:37:21

Speaker 1: it sounds so obvious. And yet the number of these meetings that take place with a certain percentage of the participants blacked out and unavailable is remarkable.

00:37:31

Speaker 1: And the reasons that people have in their mind for doing it. Our number that you could reel them off. Oh, I'm just a participant. I'm just in this meeting to listen, I'm a junior member. It doesn't matter. Oh, I'm a supervisor. It's really my team that's doing the work. I'm just here to sit in and listen. If you are there and your present and your camera's not on.

00:37:51

Speaker 1: It creates a different feel. It creates a different atmosphere. It's a totally different experience for people. And

00:37:57

Speaker 1: the willingness to participate is the first expectation. If people take the time and they're they're the idea that you take the time and bring your full self

00:38:08

Speaker 1: as a baseline expectation is something that

00:38:11

Speaker 1: I've gotten more confident about telling people and giving us advice because it really does matter for people beyond that

00:38:19

Speaker 1: there are so many other things about then how you manage and organize your participation so that it's good, everything from good eye contact, good lighting, um,

00:38:30

Speaker 1: along with things like stable connections and backup systems. But

00:38:34

Speaker 1: the particular of

00:38:38

Speaker 1: taking the opportunity when it's presented to actually participate in that call in a real way

00:38:44

Speaker 1: comes from the reality that people had to spend so much time on these platforms that they stopped liking doing it. So if they have to do it,

00:38:54

Speaker 1: the expectation is that you treat it like something serious. And the fact that you've had a whole day of these calls and are tired of, it

00:39:02

Speaker 1: doesn't change the impression that that meeting in the afternoon that you decide to opt out of in that way experiences. So the video call using it when it's available and using it as well as possible.

00:39:15

Speaker 1: I've got a third area for you about remote work and it makes a lot of sense when you think about it from an etiquette context, but it surprises a lot of professionals and working professionals and that's that

00:39:27

Speaker 1: it's a real skill when you're not with people all the time to effectively communicate your emotions. And there's all sorts of important information that people pick up when they're physically present with you.

00:39:40

Speaker 1: Things are going well, things are not going well, they're hurried there, relaxed there,

00:39:46

Speaker 1: not just in a good mood or a bad mood, but they're really defensive right now. They're really things that would be important about how you approach someone to get work done.

00:39:56

Speaker 1: That's information you just don't have when you're not with each other and how you are expressive and communicate that in a way that is effective and generous but isn't demanding or too much or confusing is an important new balance for people to learn how to strike.

00:40:13

Speaker 2: I'll pull back the curtain on Emily post of it. I know 100% and if we could put a study on it, I guarantee you would get that number as a result that when you and I

00:40:25

Speaker 2: communicate where we're at and what we're dealing with during our days or even throughout our days, especially when it changes up really quickly that we are far better and more effective in our in our actual individual work that we're doing for the company together than when we don't. And I am amazed at how much smoother we are and how much more work gets done

00:40:52

Speaker 2: when we communicate things and communicate them early to one another. So whether and and sometimes it's stuff like I don't know, maybe it's a personal life thing that comes up that then impedes on the day in some way, shape or form or it's a

00:41:07

Speaker 2: we said we were going to talk in like an hour and it's now hit an hour and a half

00:41:13

Speaker 2: Knowing, you know, 45 minutes ago, that like you hit a tired wall or you started getting really worried about a particular thing. We had to get out the door and switch to working on that and would want to push our thing back that we were going to do with our time frame. You know, it's like

00:41:31

Speaker 2: communicating where you're at with your day, what's been coming up and how you're going to best manage yourself? I feel like is one of the, one of the best things that we've done with one another and when we do it, it's really successful

00:41:45

Speaker 1: lizzie post. I think I also learned that lesson working with you and I would be so proud of me if you saw one of the new slides that I've developed as part of our remote work training and

00:41:56

Speaker 1: it's a slide that's titled sample scripts. It comes from this, it comes from the section of the trading that's about this emotional communication and communication strategies in general about adding to your communication and conscious ways because there is information that people don't have. So things like,

00:42:14

Speaker 1: are you getting everything that you need from me

00:42:16

Speaker 1: or the end of next week is getting pretty hectic. I'm hoping to keep internal task to a minimum after Wednesday. You talk about that, that talking ahead of time about things.

00:42:27

Speaker 2: Yeah, balancing the things that when, you know, the busy times are coming. Yeah.

00:42:31

Speaker 1: Or if there's something that's important identifying it as such,

00:42:35

Speaker 1: it is important that I get everyone on the team to sign off on this by the end of day Tuesday, please confirm that you have the new deadline

00:42:43

Speaker 1: so that you're very clear both about the circumstance that you're dealing with and what the action is that's coming out of that and what your expectations are for other people

00:42:54

Speaker 1: Or one of our classics, there's something a little awkward. I would like to speak with you about this time tomorrow for a 15 minute video

00:43:02

Speaker 2: chat. Ask permission to have the conversation and

00:43:06

Speaker 1: leverage the tools at your disposal. If there is something that, that

00:43:09

Speaker 1: you would like to invest a little more in, take the time and try to figure out the best way to do it

00:43:14

Speaker 1: lizzie post. Those are the three big areas that we've been focusing on, new ways that we communicate

00:43:20

Speaker 1: really good video conferencing and using calendars in ways that work well for everybody, both the individual and the organization

00:43:29

Speaker 2: dan so much of remote work creates a wonderful sense of autonomy throughout the day. People talk about how they love being able to balance the things at home and the work stuff and

00:43:38

Speaker 2: and some people talk about not loving that they would prefer to be in the office away from the home zone and

00:43:44

Speaker 2: and solely focused on work, not distracted by the laundry that just got finished, that you could easily switch. You know, there's, there's different types of workers out there um when it comes to remote work and different preference levels with it and that sort of thing. But

00:43:58

Speaker 2: how do you think we can best react when our team or a colleague lets us know that maybe we aren't quite succeeding at the remote work aspect of this kind of changing work environment that most of us are in, because

00:44:15

Speaker 2: it's not all gonna go swimmingly every time. And

00:44:19

Speaker 2: I think we, we, a lot of the times on the show, we talk about how to address something when it's not going well, but how can we best address it when someone lets us know that we're not doing the best of jobs or that were maybe not communicating enough.

00:44:35

Speaker 1: It can be really hard to get feedback like that. And I think the biggest challenge is to not respond defensively, but to ask what they think you could do better.

00:44:46

Speaker 2: Yeah, you

00:44:48

Speaker 1: start you start to look for help everywhere that you can because ultimately that's going to make it easier to make improvements or to identify what needs improving, whatever that first step is.

00:44:59

Speaker 1: And if someone's raising a concern with you, oftentimes that's coming from a place of caring either about you or about the work, I know when I have problems with people that I don't like, I tend to get as much distance from them as possible. The people, I raise problems with other people that I care about the most and

00:45:17

Speaker 1: maybe remembering that is helpful as well, but it's not an easy moment. And

00:45:24

Speaker 1: I think also remembering that it is something that we're all dealing with can help deal with that can help make that easier to deal with

00:45:31

Speaker 2: well. And you might be like winning at it one week or month, but then things change or, you know, something at home changes even and it makes it a lot harder the next month to be a really successful remote worker. And so

00:45:44

Speaker 2: just having that flexibility in your own brain that you might need reminders to be on point about this or that it's something that once you hit doing it well, doesn't just mean you keep doing it well automatically is probably a good attitude to cultivate at this time.

00:46:03

Speaker 1: I think in March of 2020, your cat walking across your

00:46:09

Speaker 1: Keyboard in front of your Zoom camera might have been amusing to colleagues that didn't know you loved cats so much by the March of 2021 when you're trying to get through a meeting and it keeps happening. It's maybe not as funny

00:46:24

Speaker 2: or it's just, yeah, it's like, no, we should, you know, figure out the ways to keep the focus on the work. You know,

00:46:31

Speaker 2: we've been at it for a while now and it's been really interesting to see

00:46:35

Speaker 2: what has emerged as the beneficial tactics. The things that people agree are good behaviors, good expectations, those sorts of things for us. I think it's been cool to see a new, it's not totally new because remote work has been happening. Working from home has been happening for a long time.

00:46:53

Speaker 2: But just to see how prevalent it is now,

00:46:57

Speaker 2: it's like when social media came about at first it was there and then it was like everywhere. And I feel like that's the same thing with remote work first, it was there now. It feels like it's everywhere.

00:47:07

Speaker 1: Well hopefully this post grip helps us navigate the early stages of what I think is going to be a brave new world and a future that will all be operating in for quite some time.

00:47:19

Speaker 2: Thank you dan so much for sharing this. I know it's been really valuable to our clients who have had it in their seminars over the past year and I know that it's going to be a section that we develop even further as we, as we all, as you say, continue to work from home work.

00:47:35

Speaker 1: You see

00:47:37

Speaker 1: that's what it takes to win the fight

00:47:40

Speaker 1: against an ulcer

00:47:41

Speaker 1: at work.

00:47:56

Speaker 1: We like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing and that can come in so many forms today. We have a salute from Margaret

00:48:06

Speaker 2: Dear E team last summer, mid pandemic. My husband's military career moved us and our two young Children across the world to a remote island far away from family and friends. After a short six months here, my husband left for an eight month deployment.

00:48:22

Speaker 2: I was very nervous to be a single parent without family nearby for such a long period of time.

00:48:29

Speaker 2: However, when we returned from saying goodbye, there was a bottle of champagne and a chocolate bar from a neighbor on my doorstep with a note telling me that I am not alone.

00:48:39

Speaker 2: Since then, countless friends, neighbors and even strangers have gone above and beyond to make sure that my kids and I are taken care of. They have mowed our lawn, Babysat brought us medicine and meals and invited us to some amazing adventures. Some friends who don't have Children

00:48:58

Speaker 2: have even invited us over for dinner parties with an early dinner time knowing that sticking to bedtimes is crucial to keeping my sanity.

00:49:06

Speaker 2: Our circumstances are not unique in this military lifestyle. So while I thank and salute all of the people who have helped us personally.

00:49:15

Speaker 2: This salute is to all the people who love and support a service member and their family with their support. Our service members can do their jobs overseas knowing that their loved ones are being cared for at home sincerely mills spouse. Oh my goodness! Sorry that one just totally brought me to tears.

00:49:35

Speaker 1: Will spouse, thank you so much for this salute.

00:49:39

Speaker 1: Thank you to everyone who sent us something and everyone who supports us on Patreon.

00:49:44

Speaker 2: Please connect with us and share this show with friends, family and co workers and on social media

00:49:50

Speaker 1: you can send us your next question feedback or salute by email to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a message or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463 on twitter. We are at Emily Post on instagram, we are at Emily Post Institute and on facebook we are awesome etiquette and the Emily Post Institute.

00:50:13

Speaker 2: Please consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette.

00:50:20

Speaker 2: You can also subscribe to the ads version of our show on Spotify or your favorite podcast app

00:50:26

Speaker 2: and please consider leaving us a review. It helps our show ranking which helps more people find awesome etiquette.

00:50:33

Speaker 1: Our show is edited by chris Albertine. An assistant produced by Brigitte

00:50:36

Speaker 2: Dowd. Thanks chris and Kristin Bridget.

00:50:40

Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:50:40

Speaker 1: Mhm