Episode 363 - When I Get Old

00:00:04

Speaker 1: maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social, could you see that's old fashioned,

00:00:13

Speaker 2: watch how busy post and then post to act as host and hostess, they know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person, real friendliness.

00:00:24

Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to awesome etiquette

00:00:28

Speaker 1: where we explore modern etiquette through lens of consideration, respect and honesty.

00:00:32

Speaker 2: On today's show we take your questions on considerate condolences handling subpar service notes on dating notes and a christmas card question

00:00:42

Speaker 2: yes, in

00:00:43

Speaker 1: august for awesome etiquette sustaining members. Our question of the week is about bridesmaids being able to prioritize studies but still participate

00:00:52

Speaker 2: plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a post script interview with author Stephen Petro about his new book, stupid things I won't do when I get old. All that's coming up,

00:01:04

Speaker 1: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute, I'm lizzie post

00:01:12

Speaker 2: and I'm down post sending,

00:01:13

Speaker 1: hey, good

00:01:14

Speaker 2: afternoon, have

00:01:16

Speaker 1: a rainy muggy one today, but we're going to, we're going to do this podcast is going to feel great.

00:01:21

Speaker 2: Absolutely.

00:01:23

Speaker 1: Earlier today, before we hopped on the mic, I did an interview with a writer for I think Money magazine and

00:01:31

Speaker 1: she was doing an article on money sending apps. So things like Venmo Paypal, you know that you can, you can kind of use and post easily and that people really are

00:01:43

Speaker 1: using so much today. I know a lot of people pay their babysitters sometimes even for services like hair appointments and stuff like that. Like I feel like specifically the word Venmo, but all of these types of apps and um

00:01:56

Speaker 1: and services are everywhere right now.

00:01:59

Speaker 1: And yeah, and one of the things that she was specifically asking about, she's seen a trend of people

00:02:06

Speaker 1: asking for birthday gifts through it. So I'm not talking about kids here, but like adults and I believe she was referring to two people more in their twenties,

00:02:17

Speaker 1: like people would post to their social media like on their birthday, like, hey, if you want to get me something Venmo me at and you know, they would something like that or they list whatever service it was

00:02:28

Speaker 1: and it was just so surprising. So when it came to the etiquette of it, of course we were talking about things like, well, you know, adults, birthdays and gifts, it's a little different from when you were a kid and it's, it's definitely not exactly, it's like it's not expected. So you really shouldn't be just putting a post out there for from an etiquette perspective,

00:02:48

Speaker 1: but it did get me thinking once again about these types of services and how we choose to use them when we choose to use them and, and, and sort of why this is our best idea, you know what I mean? Or maybe not our best idea, but the thing we think of to do and it got me realizing, I don't use one of these services currently in my life.

00:03:12

Speaker 1: I've been told by a lot of people that that means I'm way out of touch

00:03:15

Speaker 2: with reality.

00:03:16

Speaker 1: But I am really curious from our audiences perspective

00:03:22

Speaker 1: when they think we're using these services really well and when we're starting to cross lines, so when are you feeling sick about them? And when are you feeling like, oh yea hooray, you know, because we do, there's gonna be a lot of etiquette, I think that comes up in the future about these things. We've on the show, we've talked about stuff like people using them for weddings. We've talked about people doing the thing where they like right in soap on the back of the car, like, you know, just got married. Then moments here I saw 12 weekends ago that was, were driving from coast to coast, help us get there and it had an account and so we know that people have put out notices when they are having a hard time, can't meet a bill or something like that. We know that

00:04:07

Speaker 1: people have requested, Hey, can I get your Venmo so I can send you money this way. Um there's just so many different things I feel well

00:04:17

Speaker 2: and the one that I feel like we encounter the most frequently in the first place I

00:04:22

Speaker 2: personally encountered then most specifically and also one of the first places I heard about it through etiquette was splitting a bill at the end of a meal

00:04:32

Speaker 2: and I was so intrigued. This was relatively early on and thinking of myself back then as a, if not cutting edge a leading edge type technology person. I got kind of excited about the possibility of direct money transfer electronic. Obviously

00:04:49

Speaker 2: people have been exchanging money for a long time, but this becomes a new medium so there's going to be new expectations and new courtesies.

00:04:58

Speaker 2: I

00:04:59

Speaker 2: tried to share some money with my brother and he told me that he doesn't link anything that he has to um to anything has to do with finances that he doesn't know web portals. So

00:05:12

Speaker 2: my first try, I got shut down so hard. It wasn't even a possibility that was something that would even be considered

00:05:21

Speaker 2: that I kind of backed off it. And now I find myself a little bit like you, you know, almost whatever. 567 years later where the adoption has really become much more broad and the questions are much more broad and I'm not as personally familiar.

00:05:37

Speaker 1: I've had some people say that to get around what you just experienced, they actually

00:05:41

Speaker 1: keep money that is theirs. They know they could figure out a way to get it out eventually. But that mostly it's their Venmo savings account and the idea is that like the first time someone owes you money

00:05:53

Speaker 1: You have them send it to you and everything, but you just leave it there in your Venmo account and it just stays there and when you owe someone now you've got $50 in that account maybe.

00:06:03

Speaker 1: And so you owe somebody 25 and you shoot it out of there and then you try to kind of balance it on this intake. You know always have your intake feel a little more than your what's outgoing. But that you use the service that way

00:06:14

Speaker 2: and it's sequestered, it's its own discreet pool. I know

00:06:17

Speaker 1: a lot of people who set up a specific bank account and they only keep you know a couple $100 in there. So that that's that's like if someone did get access to it and drain it, that's the only one. And that that was recommended to me by like a

00:06:32

Speaker 1: a financial advisor person. And so that that might be the route that I go if I decided to bite the bill. But I got I got shamed by my sister when I paid for one of her prescriptions at the store and it turned out to be way more expensive than we thought. She was just like I was just gonna be five bucks, it was not just five bucks

00:06:50

Speaker 1: and she goes well let me Venmo it to you and I was like I don't have Venmo and I mean I got

00:06:54

Speaker 1: I I definitely got shamed on

00:06:56

Speaker 2: the other side of the civil spectrum.

00:06:58

Speaker 1: Yeah dude what are you thinking get with the times lizzie come on like a great

00:07:06

Speaker 2: I'll trade you.

00:07:07

Speaker 1: Yeah. No exactly right. I think for you with kids is probably

00:07:11

Speaker 2: like way more

00:07:12

Speaker 1: useful but um but I've we've heard so much about it. I'm really curious about folks who use it a lot.

00:07:19

Speaker 1: Um what are the things that you're finding really useful, convenient and polite about the exchanges you're having on it? And what are the things where you're starting to butt up against consideration, respect and honesty and feel like

00:07:32

Speaker 1: those values aren't being upheld in your

00:07:34

Speaker 2: interactions. So we're going to tap the awesome etiquette audience research group for this one.

00:07:38

Speaker 1: Yes we are. We are indeed. So please send your thoughts, your problems, your questions, your success is all of it to us at any of the normal channels that you hear throughout the show. We are so excited to hear what you guys think about money sending services.

00:07:54

Speaker 2: Well, lizzie Post, that's a question for our audience but our audience has some questions for us. They do, shall we get to it? Let's do it, let's do it.

00:08:04

Speaker 2: Awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions. You can email them to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. Leave a voicemail or text at 802858 kind that's 8028585463. You can also reach us on social media on twitter. We are at Emily Post on instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute and on facebook. We are awesome etiquette Just remember use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the show.

00:08:31

Speaker 2: Uh huh

00:08:33

Speaker 2: uh huh.

00:08:34

Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:08:37

Speaker 1: Our first question is titled condolence considerations. Hello. My brother died in late May which gave rise to a few etiquette questions. Here is one of them about cards.

00:08:50

Speaker 1: The family did not specify flowers or donations and I asked my niece who said they wanted people to choose their own option.

00:08:58

Speaker 1: So I donated to an animal shelter as my brother adored dogs and he and his wife rescued many over the years. The shelter asked for an email but I was unsure if my sister in law would be checking emails at this time.

00:09:11

Speaker 1: Is it okay to also mention the donation and the amount in the card I take to the funeral home since I am unsure that the email notice won't arrive or go to spam or something

00:09:22

Speaker 2: anonymous

00:09:23

Speaker 2: anonymous. Thank you for the question. We're sorry to hear about your loss and really appreciate the way that you're thinking about this.

00:09:32

Speaker 2: The family leaving you the option of flowers or a donation leaves that decision entirely in your hands. And I like the way you really thought about what might matter to your brother and that you chose something that

00:09:49

Speaker 2: really felt connected to him. I think that's a nice way to approach something like that and as far as letting the family. No, I think that you're showing similar care and consideration, thinking about the best way to do that.

00:10:03

Speaker 2: I think that the condolence note is a perfectly appropriate place to do that. Many places that you make donations

00:10:10

Speaker 2: will give an option for you to send a notice or that allow them to thank the person whose name it was donated in. That's really important to those organizations. This is one of those situations where

00:10:23

Speaker 2: I don't think it hurts at all for them to hear it twice for them to hear it from the organization and to also hear it from you. Those are two very appropriate places to be hearing about something like that. And it doesn't feel to me like it crosses over that line of being self congratulatory or

00:10:40

Speaker 2: I'm overemphasizing the donation in relation to the event, the passing of your brother.

00:10:46

Speaker 1: I completely agree. And I think it would be really easy to slip into a note. You know, like once you've addressed the issue of the person's passing in this case, your brother, your niece's father, you know, and you make some of the lovely comments about how you'll be remembering him or how you're feeling or

00:11:04

Speaker 1: how much you know, that he was loved by his family, that sort of thing.

00:11:08

Speaker 1: So once you've gone through all those parts of the notes, you might say something like I know that once you all were grown up he and your mother's pups became their babies. And so I have donated X amount, you know, to the local humane society in his honor or whatever that wherever the donation is too.

00:11:26

Speaker 1: And then close out your letter as you normally would. Something like I'm wishing you and your family

00:11:31

Speaker 1: so much comfort and support at this time. Love aunt

00:11:36

Speaker 2: obviously not anonymous lizzie. That sounds very natural to me

00:11:39

Speaker 2: anonymous. Thank you for this question. We hope that our answer helps and that you're able to continue to support your family at this difficult

00:11:46

Speaker 1: time.

00:11:52

Speaker 1: Our

00:11:58

Speaker 2: next question is titled Services subpar.

00:12:03

Speaker 2: Hi lizzie and dan. I just started to get back into listening to the show and was inspired to write in.

00:12:08

Speaker 2: I find myself in a slightly awkward situation with regards to an online service I have purchased,

00:12:14

Speaker 2: I paid for access to an online course a couple of months ago. And due to the nature of what I was looking for, support with purchased the premium version which included access to the course as well as personalized support from the person themselves for six months,

00:12:28

Speaker 2: they made it clear that they were currently on maternity leave. So wouldn't be able to offer the regular video call follow ups during these six months as they normally would,

00:12:37

Speaker 2: but stated that they would carry out these follow ups via email and voice messages

00:12:42

Speaker 2: over the past two months. I have updated this person on my progress via comments on the shared google doc that she created for this purpose as well as sending questions via email on an ad hoc basis.

00:12:53

Speaker 2: I'm finding that I'm not fully satisfied with the responses I'm getting from her with comments on the google doc being ignored, having to follow up on every question I asked via email to get a response and no voice messages to speak of.

00:13:06

Speaker 2: I appreciate that she is on maternity leave so I really don't want to hassle her. It was definitely a busy and overwhelming time. However, she did sell this product with the promise of an adapted personalized service, taking into account her maternity leave so I can't help but feel a little short changed.

00:13:23

Speaker 2: Do you have any suggestions of how I could approach this with her? If at all,

00:13:28

Speaker 2: I'm not looking for any kind of refund, but I'm almost at the halfway point of the six month package and I don't want another three months to go by where I feel like I haven't got my money's worth or learned as much as I could have from this service

00:13:41

Speaker 2: equally. If you think it would be inappropriate to address this given her personal circumstances, then I'm happy to just let this one go.

00:13:48

Speaker 2: Any advice would be much appreciated. Thank you, confused customer

00:13:54

Speaker 1: dan. I feel like confused customer is um is a engaging a service that sounds very similar to some of the ones that we offer. I know I know they're not engaged with us right now because I know who were teaching, but it's it's interesting to hear,

00:14:07

Speaker 1: um we've had moments in our life where, you know, whether it's the book writing or it's a paternity leave or something else that comes up

00:14:16

Speaker 1: where we're not able to Yeah, exactly. Like there's times where we've had to make adjustments, like it seems like the service provider is, and I know that we've always a really wanted to treat those adjustments fairly,

00:14:30

Speaker 1: you know, really wanted to make sure that someone is getting out of us what we promise. Um and it can, it can feel so tough when you're not meeting that

00:14:39

Speaker 1: and I appreciate kind of hearing the customer perspective on what it can be like when the expectation of what you were supposed to have provided isn't being met. But I also really appreciate hearing confused customers balancing of the frustration with the reality that this person who's engaging the services as a new mother

00:14:59

Speaker 1: and the many, many challenges and adjustments and surprises that can even come up in a baby's first couple of months of life

00:15:05

Speaker 1: are just like they are true. They are, I don't know if you call them real ISMs, they are they're they're realities that you have to deal with and that you come up against and her plan clearly hasn't been as successful and and supported you in the ways that she probably intended it to and I think that that is worth talking about with her at some point and it's hard to say that because clearly if they're struggling

00:15:31

Speaker 1: to get the emails and that's out there probably, you know, hearing the bummer of boy, this really isn't going that well for me. Is there something we can do is it's a tough thing to hear. You know, it can feel like you're bringing a problem to what is probably already a difficult time in her life, but at the same time it's not going well and

00:15:51

Speaker 1: people usually do want their customers to be really satisfied, especially for something like a premium service package, that type of thing. And

00:15:59

Speaker 1: I know dan that I would want people to talk to us about it. And so my my

00:16:04

Speaker 2: my

00:16:05

Speaker 1: guess is that we can help you find the right language to maybe talk about it or at least sample language to do it, but that you are going to want to approach this with with the person or that it would be a good idea to

00:16:17

Speaker 2: I was thinking very similar thoughts lizzie post and you're, you're so right for me this, it's particularly close to home. I know I've been on the failing end of this, we do a lot of personalized service for people and

00:16:29

Speaker 2: it's

00:16:31

Speaker 2: not always possible, even when you're at your best to meet every expectation and when you're not at your best. I think it's a reality that often times, you know, when you're not

00:16:42

Speaker 2: hitting the mark or performing at the level that you'd want and whether you're aware of that or not, I landed in exactly the same place you did, which was I would want to know and I want to know how someone else was feeling about it and

00:16:57

Speaker 2: I would particularly want to know if they were feeling about it. The way our question asked her is

00:17:02

Speaker 2: where they're also very understanding and accepting and

00:17:06

Speaker 2: probably very willing to figure out a path forward that would make everyone feel much better. And if you can introduce those two things together, it goes from being a problem. That's a nasty little problem to a problem that

00:17:21

Speaker 2: has the potential to really put the whole relationship on good footing and how you navigate those difficult or awkward moments.

00:17:28

Speaker 2: It's the oldest cliche in business, but they're often some of the best opportunities to really do what you want to be doing and get closer to the people that you want to be closer to. So I'm curious what you would set the briefest of sample script, you said

00:17:42

Speaker 2: something, I think it's a bummer, but I want to work it out and those are the two things I want to communicate how I'm dealing, but also that I'm very much looking forward and looking forward without blame, but with some curiosity about how it can be better in the future.

00:17:55

Speaker 1: I was thinking of something along the lines of having an email that starts out praising what you do like about the course and thanking the person who's created it for having done so and you know, working with you on it

00:18:09

Speaker 1: and then I think you have to switch into the your feeling right? So we're using a little bit of dance. Is this the compliment sandwich or the

00:18:17

Speaker 1: the

00:18:17

Speaker 2: phrase concerns suggest

00:18:19

Speaker 1: framework. Exactly raised concerns, suggestion is probably what we're going to go with here. So you've done the praise part and you really let them know honestly what you're grateful for what you think has been excellent and then you're going to drop your while or I am. However, um and I would probably end up saying something like I am. However, unfortunately feeling like I'm not getting the full experience at this time,

00:18:43

Speaker 1: you could continue with while I truly appreciate your efforts to email and to respond when possible to the comments in the shared google doc.

00:18:53

Speaker 1: I'm not feeling like this is quite the level of communication that was presented her that we had discussed, maybe that we had discussed this a little softer language when I booked the course,

00:19:05

Speaker 1: then you've got to go into the suggestion right? You stated the problem, I don't feel like I'm getting the level of communication I need, you might even stay the say that, you know, at the halfway point, the three month point, I felt like this was a good point to touch in and let you know that this is how I'm experiencing it.

00:19:21

Speaker 1: And then you could suggest something like, you know, I'd like to ask that we either find time together once your schedule is able to accommodate it or I don't know if it's a thing that you can stop taking, you know, if it's or I might have to decide to not continue on with the rest of the program. As you mentioned, you're not looking for a refund, so you don't have to make that statement if you were

00:19:43

Speaker 1: you might make a suggestion of or if there's a possibility to do some kind of a refund based on how much I've I've taken so far, you know, each program is different. Each thing is different. Only the person kind of dealing with the situation is going to know whether they want to go there or not.

00:19:57

Speaker 1: But I would also then make a suggestion that you're open to hearing her suggestions on what might work

00:20:03

Speaker 1: and giving her that space to offer something else or welcoming a different offer that you haven't thought of into the mix. And then I would go back to praise. So we might add 1/4 layer to the sandwich

00:20:15

Speaker 1: where I would let them know if you really have appreciated everything so far. I would double down on that and say I really am so thrilled with so much of this and I really want to get the full experience that I can out of it.

00:20:26

Speaker 1: I think that's a nice encouraging way too close if you really do want to be moving on with the person and continuing the program.

00:20:32

Speaker 2: I tell you, lizzie pose that grand finale there would make me feel a lot better.

00:20:36

Speaker 1: It would make

00:20:37

Speaker 2: me feel very encouraged to reach back out and figure out how to pick this up again in the best possible way.

00:20:44

Speaker 2: If it was at all possible, you never know. New baby could be all kinds of things, but it could also be something quite simple. Like I'm getting ready to

00:20:53

Speaker 2: get my toe back into the work world in a more committed way and this is the kind of reminder that's going to get me there.

00:21:00

Speaker 1: Totally

00:21:01

Speaker 1: confused customer. We hope this helps good for you for taking on new experiences and lessons and engaging in programs were certainly fans of folks who take those plunges and we really, really hope that you get what you're looking for out of this experience in this program because it sounds like it could be really great.

00:21:21

Speaker 1: Did you ever notice how some people treat others? We like people who are polite. We should always try to be thoughtful when we talk on the telephone, we should be kind and considerate. Our next question is titled notes on notes

00:21:36

Speaker 1: and dan, This next one, I feel like I get bragging rights. It came to deter lizzie post,

00:21:41

Speaker 2: I

00:21:43

Speaker 1: win, I win

00:21:45

Speaker 1: Or it could just because it's on dating and they know you're married, but all right, I love your show and consider myself a disciple. It's not that I'm so great in practice, but I am 100% for the standards of respect, consideration and honesty.

00:22:00

Speaker 1: I use match dot com regularly and sometimes I get lovely complimentary notes from women and I know that I don't want to meet them,

00:22:09

Speaker 1: usually it's because they live too far away or we have no common interests etcetera, that sort of thing.

00:22:15

Speaker 1: I actually do not want a reply to one of my notes if the person has no interest, because the very fact they replied gives me a little bit of false hope.

00:22:25

Speaker 1: I understand that outside the online dating world Notes require a response.

00:22:31

Speaker 1: Do I need to respond to these notes? Should I

00:22:35

Speaker 1: best wishes anonymous m

00:22:39

Speaker 2: anonymous M thank you for the question and you're going to get a little prize for one of the funniest openings to a question we've heard in a long time.

00:22:46

Speaker 1: I

00:22:48

Speaker 2: too am committed to the principles of consideration, respect and honesty and

00:22:53

Speaker 2: Much better in my mind that I am in practice, despite my 100% commitment in my

00:22:58

Speaker 1: mind, I would have to say did Oh, just so you know, dido like the self

00:23:03

Speaker 2: awareness in that and the good humor in it, I think is a great place to start with any etiquette discussion, I think puts you in really good standing to ask a tricky question about norms for online dating and

00:23:16

Speaker 2: the dating world is so complicated and so subtle in many of its expectations and sort of subcultures and

00:23:25

Speaker 1: personal, it's so personal.

00:23:28

Speaker 2: Yes, it's connected to the heart, so it matters a great no,

00:23:32

Speaker 1: I didn't mean connected to the heart personal. I meant like

00:23:35

Speaker 1: it's so personal. Like everyone has their own different feelings about how like some people

00:23:40

Speaker 1: right stuff off as no big deal, whereas other people, those kinds of things are deal breakers are really big breaches of dating etiquette. You know, it's like, it's personalized in terms of we all kind of think a little differently about how it should go, even though there's some big overarching ideas, you

00:23:56

Speaker 2: know? So

00:23:58

Speaker 2: in some ways when I read this question, I'm

00:24:01

Speaker 2: I'm drawing parallels in my mind to traditional etiquette or expectations that come from the past as we so often do what Emily post.

00:24:09

Speaker 2: And I was thinking about places where people would meet and mingle and get to know each other,

00:24:15

Speaker 2: where there was some

00:24:17

Speaker 2: allowance for

00:24:19

Speaker 2: single people to try to figure each other out.

00:24:22

Speaker 2: And there are there are a lot of subtle cues that when you're in person, you can give to each other that function to say yes, I might be interested or no, I'm really not. And those cues could be as subtle as as good eye contact and how long you maintain it or don't.

00:24:39

Speaker 2: And I'm trying to think about a version of that, that's the online version.

00:24:44

Speaker 2: Is this a little bit like that eye contact early encounter that says, yes, I'm willing to meet you or this is just so early on that I can excuse myself by just looking away and that becomes the signal that we're not gonna,

00:25:02

Speaker 2: I don't want to say waste each other's time but pursue this in a way where it's not likely to go anywhere.

00:25:06

Speaker 1: So in other words, is not responding to a direct message or a message or I don't know what they call them, you know, likes or things like that on a dating site. Just the exact same as as not giving someone

00:25:21

Speaker 1: lingering come over here and get to know me kind of uh I stare, right?

00:25:26

Speaker 2: That's exactly what I'm wondering. And

00:25:28

Speaker 1: I'm putting it in. I just say, you know, I love the way you've described that and I want to put it in that category just because I know for a lot of people the sheer volume that they deal with on dating sites,

00:25:39

Speaker 1: it means that if they were giving everyone that they were not interested in a reply back that said thanks for trying, but no, obviously not quite that harsh, but it would become a bit overwhelming or off putting for dealing with the site. And I

00:25:55

Speaker 1: I don't know because I was in the, in the zone of I think it's okay to just ignore

00:26:00

Speaker 1: the notes from people that you're not going to choose to engage with. And that that's a it's I think it's a reality. I mean, I know the very brief time I ever spent on any dating site that you kind of put your line out there, if you're interested in talking to someone and if they don't write back, they don't write back. Like, it's it's kind of the signal.

00:26:21

Speaker 1: But I'd be really curious again what our audience thinks of this, what they experience if they'd rather get a no than just get silence. If the silence means that maybe in three months you'd be of interest, like, you know what I mean? Like, does the silence keep the door open or shut the door? I don't

00:26:37

Speaker 2: know.

00:26:37

Speaker 2: So, I I want to draw my analogy out just a little bit, because I was thinking about a couple of the questions you asked, and

00:26:43

Speaker 2: I don't know if my instincts are going to be good here or not. I am quite thankful. I've been out of the dating world for a few years now, but I also enjoyed it. I had some fun,

00:26:52

Speaker 1: you had a good dating, like,

00:26:54

Speaker 2: you obviously don't have to walk into uh club and tell every person there, you're not interested that you're not interested. And

00:27:03

Speaker 2: in some ways, there is an etiquette parallel that says,

00:27:07

Speaker 2: you know, when you don't invite someone to your wedding, you don't call them up to explain all the reasons that you didn't, well, you're actually, I don't feel quite as close to you as I do to those other cousins who I spent more time with

00:27:17

Speaker 1: or how about even just a plain Hi, I just wanted to call and tell you you're not invited to my wedding. Like that's it like No,

00:27:23

Speaker 2: exactly. So some allowance for,

00:27:27

Speaker 2: as you say, that that that initial encounter to be to be a very light touch that doesn't necessarily require a reply or

00:27:36

Speaker 2: isn't given expecting a reply I think is a very reasonable thing

00:27:41

Speaker 2: when when you replied to be where you said direct message and I was wondering if a direct message is different than a note,

00:27:49

Speaker 2: whether there's something within the platform,

00:27:53

Speaker 2: it's sort of a tiered or hierarchy of how direct the communication is. And it got me to think about the advice that we give that when you break up with someone

00:28:02

Speaker 2: that in many ways that break up, you're expected to invest in it

00:28:06

Speaker 2: with some sense of proportionality to how the relationship has been invested in.

00:28:11

Speaker 2: So we often say if the relationship was a primarily over the phone relationship, you could probably break up over the phone that if you've had enough in person encounters, if it's been a longer relationship that

00:28:23

Speaker 2: telling someone in person

00:28:26

Speaker 2: show some respect and shows some care for them, even if the relationship is ending, that shows some respect and care for the relationship that you had together

00:28:34

Speaker 1: and if you've spent more time texting than in person or on the phone do you think

00:28:39

Speaker 2: it might be, it might be a totally texting flirtation that you can send as a text and flirtation with a text

00:28:46

Speaker 2: and I would pay attention to that in terms of making the choices on a platform to platform basis, I would ask myself, has there been an exchange, has there been a back and forth that I have to acknowledge is ending? Or is this really about

00:29:01

Speaker 2: being in a space getting a feel for where the interest is and I'm not necessarily required to respond to every expression of interest that people show.

00:29:09

Speaker 1: I like that idea of also like using the platform itself as a guidance for for where you're at with that smart, very smart cousin for someone who hasn't used these systems

00:29:21

Speaker 1: anonymous. M we certainly hope that our answer helps and that you find someone really fantastic

00:29:27

Speaker 1: on your next date.

00:29:29

Speaker 2: And so George's first plunge into the social swim comes to a successful end.

00:29:35

Speaker 1: It wasn't too difficult.

00:29:36

Speaker 1: All it required was a little courage and following a

00:29:40

Speaker 2: few simple rules

00:29:41

Speaker 1: of etiquette rules which are based on just one thing,

00:29:45

Speaker 2: consideration

00:29:46

Speaker 1: for the feelings of others.

00:29:52

Speaker 2: Our next question, arriving in late, august is titled christmas come early.

00:29:58

Speaker 2: I know it's only July but I'm already thinking about Christmas cards, we're getting married on December 18, so we will be married by Christmas,

00:30:06

Speaker 2: but not before the cards need to be mailed.

00:30:09

Speaker 2: Should we include any mention of our marriage in the card? For example,

00:30:14

Speaker 2: a very married christmas, how should we sign the cards? Thank you. A confused fiance

00:30:22

Speaker 1: is a laugh

00:30:22

Speaker 2: worthy pun isn't, it's

00:30:23

Speaker 1: a cute fun, A very married christmas. Oh

00:30:28

Speaker 1: um, congratulations. Well, soon to be congratulations I guess. But this is one where I really want to give my advice with all the intentions that I believe you will be married by that christmas, but it's such a dicey one because because like one of the reasons that sort of etiquette has always said things like, uh, don't start decorating with monograms or using your wedding gifts

00:30:55

Speaker 1: is for just in case something does happen and the marriage doesn't take place and, and again, I do not like this is knock on wood, this is, I don't want to strike fear in anyone's heart, but it's almost like it's coming from just the most caution. And I think another big shame would be that if, if something tragic are awful did happen and then these cards were already in the mail

00:31:17

Speaker 1: and this wedding hasn't taken place and so I just, there's, I don't know, maybe I'm a wet blanket because you can talk me out of it if I am, if I am, but

00:31:27

Speaker 1: I would feel nervous about doing it instead. I would do a normal card

00:31:32

Speaker 1: and then I would have an absolute blast sending out my wedding announcements right around or right after the christmas holiday and using the very adorable pun, you know, and it might adjust it to be like

00:31:47

Speaker 1: we had a very married christmas indeed this year or something like that, you know what I mean?

00:31:52

Speaker 1: But I would go all out on my announcements and really have fun with the pun with the time of year with all of that. Like, I just, I think that would be really cute

00:32:01

Speaker 2: because I don't think we have ever gotten quite so legalistic about not counting your chickens before they hatch.

00:32:08

Speaker 1: I know, and I feel terrible doing it, I really, really do, but you can see the conundrum right? It's like

00:32:14

Speaker 2: you're a good new Englander, you asked if I ever had feelings like this and

00:32:18

Speaker 2: they aren't quite so practical, I'm not sitting there saying to myself,

00:32:22

Speaker 2: oh I have, I mailed this out and then something happens, then this would no longer be representing the situation correctly. It's much more sort of superstitious new Englander that never wants to assume anything good is going to happen and that you potentially set yourself up testing the fates if you,

00:32:41

Speaker 2: if you count your chickens before they hatch,

00:32:44

Speaker 1: definitely a deep dive into my

00:32:46

Speaker 2: psyche.

00:32:49

Speaker 2: Yes, and I sort of call it legalistic because in some ways you could say, well we could time it, so the cards arrived and we actually were married when they arrived with a

00:32:59

Speaker 2: Wedding scheduled for December 18.

00:33:02

Speaker 1: You, you could also just simply let your christmas cards be late and send them after the eight, like send them on the 19th and just let them be the card that shows up a couple of weeks after. I mean that's that is a possibility and then you know that the wedding has happened, you don't tempt that fate and you you get the cards out still, I don't know. That could

00:33:21

Speaker 2: be a very practical solution to guess the practical problem that I was getting too, which is that it's that moment of signing. That is that is important when you,

00:33:33

Speaker 2: when you sign your name at the bottom of the document, you take responsibility and sort of right up there with not counting my chickens before they hatch is the sanctity of contracts. And

00:33:43

Speaker 1: I

00:33:45

Speaker 2: guess thinking about that that that holiday note as a contract is investing, it was something that it might not fully deserved. But

00:33:56

Speaker 2: that's the,

00:33:57

Speaker 2: those are the specifics that we're talking about here. So I I definitely am aware of that signing moment as being a part of this this equation as we think about it,

00:34:07

Speaker 1: a confused fiance. Thank you for allowing us to do an unnecessarily deep dive onto the idea of when to send your christmas card this year. We really hope that whichever avenue you take that you have a fabulous wedding and a wonderful, wonderful holiday season this year.

00:34:33

Speaker 1: Mhm

00:34:35

Speaker 1: thank you for your questions. Please send us your updates or your feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com Or leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463. You can also reach us on social media on twitter. We are at Emily post inst

00:34:53

Speaker 1: on instagram, we are at Emily Post Institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with any social media post so that we know you want your question on the show.

00:35:07

Speaker 2: If you love awesome etiquette, please consider becoming a sustaining member. You can find out more about this by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette. You'll get an ads, free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content plus you'll feel great knowing you helped to keep awesome etiquette on the air

00:35:24

Speaker 2: and to those of you who are already sustaining members. Thank you so much for your support.

00:35:29

Speaker 1: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer in the topics we cover and today we have feedback from L. R. Who writes in about episode 3 59 and the estranged niece who are listener was still sending gifts to

00:35:44

Speaker 2: our rights.

00:35:45

Speaker 2: I was nearly in tears listening to the bonus question for episode 359 about the birthday gifts. I am estranged from one of my sisters and never wanted to entirely close the door. So I continued to send holiday and birthday greetings until she told me that she considered these intrusive.

00:36:03

Speaker 2: I stated that I hoped we could one day reconcile. But her response made it clear that this may never happen on this side of the grave.

00:36:10

Speaker 2: It's a very hard place to be but I am choosing to respect her wishes

00:36:14

Speaker 2: every year as her birthday approaches. I feel sad all over again but honor her in my heart

00:36:21

Speaker 2: signed, keeping in touch while keeping my distance stay safe.

00:36:26

Speaker 1: L. R. Thank you so much for that feedback. It's it is it's tough to hear. I can hear how hard it is for you to execute each each year on your sister's birthday. But it is, it's one of those things where that respectful and considerate thing to do really is to respect their wishes.

00:36:43

Speaker 1: I do hope at some

00:36:44

Speaker 2: point in the future you and your sister are able to reconcile. You never know. Thank you for the feedback

00:36:50

Speaker 2: and thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please do keep them coming. You can send your next feedback or update to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com or give us a voicemail or text at 80285. A kind that's 8028585463.

00:37:09

Speaker 2: Mhm.

00:37:12

Speaker 1: It's time for our postscript segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette and today we're going to hear an interview from dan with author and fellow etiquette expert Stephen Petro about his new book, Stupid Things I won't do when I get old

00:37:29

Speaker 2: lizzie Post. It was so much fun to talk with Stephen Petro about his latest

00:37:33

Speaker 1: book. I bet

00:37:35

Speaker 2: the relationship that the Emily Post Institute has had with Stephen goes back to Peggy Post who comes up in the interview that I did with steven and rather than talk too much about it, I think I'm gonna let steven and speak for himself.

00:37:51

Speaker 2: Should we get to the interview?

00:37:53

Speaker 1: Let's get to the interview here is a sample of it and then we will post the entire interview over on our Patreon page,

00:38:01

Speaker 2: Stephen Petro, welcome back to awesome etiquette. It is so good to have you here.

00:38:06

Speaker 2: Well, Daniel, it is my pleasure to see you again. You're looking well, you're sounding well, thank you so much and I will return the compliment. I feel like I've gotten to know you very well. I've

00:38:18

Speaker 2: been reading your new book and I'm really excited that you're here to talk about it with us. Um I was going to do some sort of introduction of you, but then I said to myself, you know what I'm going to ask Stephen to introduce himself to our podcast audience because you know yourself better than I do and I'm really curious how your,

00:38:38

Speaker 2: how you're presenting the book, but don't be shy. Tell us a little bit about what's going on with you right now.

00:38:43

Speaker 2: Gosh, Daniel, That's that's hard. But I'm so glad not to hear my like usual introduction again. So, thank you for that. I am here, I'm talking to you because I've written this new book about getting older and it's a memoir and it's a manifesto. It's got a little bit of a title that's in your face, that stupid things I won't do

00:39:04

Speaker 2: when I get old.

00:39:06

Speaker 2: But what I'm best known for is writing about civility aging and you know, and matters. So that's that's how our lives have intersected over over the years. And one of the points of this book is that don't mean that it remains acceptable

00:39:26

Speaker 2: to make fun of older people in this society.

00:39:30

Speaker 2: One of my interview subjects said, you know, it's one of the last ISMs that's that's okay, you know, and I brought some show and tell, but I got this birthday card last month and there were two cows on it for, for those who can't see it, you know, did you know that as you get older, your hearing and eyesight began to fail

00:39:49

Speaker 2: and then inside is like the tiniest little print.

00:39:52

Speaker 2: So what do you think of your musical birthday card alluding to the fact that I can't I can't read that, nor can I hear that, ha ha ha ha ha. And you know, these are so many of the ways what's called it's called everyday ageism, but it's basically everyday rudeness and sort of a lack of sensitivity to

00:40:13

Speaker 2: Yeah, people who are over 50 and we have all these stereotypes, you know,

00:40:17

Speaker 2: I'm 64. Yeah,

00:40:19

Speaker 2: we can't here, we can't use technology. We tell the same stories over and over. And uh those are largely myths, but they're problematic.

00:40:29

Speaker 2: Well, I'm sure like so many cliches they get, they become cliches because we repeat them so many times and yet they get repeated so many times because there's probably little Granules of truth in there somewhere. But then that how matters how that gets expressed, how that becomes

00:40:48

Speaker 2: something that we all acknowledge

00:40:50

Speaker 2: is really important. And it was the first little etiquette thought that popped into my mind as you were talking about the risks of humor

00:40:56

Speaker 2: we talk about. It's not up to someone else to get your joke and how that

00:41:01

Speaker 2: perspective affects how humor is received is a theme that pops up on the show and something I was going to ask you about

00:41:08

Speaker 2: writing funny about a topic that is so serious for so many people. And it's not just getting old. You really talk about some really serious topics in this book.

00:41:18

Speaker 2: So the book actually goes from lighter to darker, I would say. And the first, the first section is stupid things I won't do today, then tomorrow. And then at the end and the end is sort of if we're coming to death and dying, let's

00:41:32

Speaker 2: you're right, I do use humor throughout because

00:41:35

Speaker 2: there are challenging topics and I'm talking about, I'm talking about illness, I am talking about getting older, disability,

00:41:42

Speaker 2: death as well as, you know, coloring your hair, not a double spacing when you're typing and their reasons for all of this. But by and large, these are topics that are hard for us to talk about in our culture. So I did use the device of humor and a lot of personal revelation and

00:42:04

Speaker 2: discussion about my family and my parents in particular. And it's been gratifying because readers have been telling me this has helped them approach these topics and open new conversations with their loved ones, which is ultimately the point of this book

00:42:19

Speaker 2: at the risk of me doing this interview I want to share. And we're reading your very personal reflections and thoughts about your parents, your relationship with your parents. It couldn't help but draw some of those thoughts up in my own mind also,

00:42:33

Speaker 2: it was sort of a surprisingly for a book that I had approached as being humorous, I found it surprisingly affecting the way it drew me into thinking about the significance of the personal relationships in my life and realistically, the time frames that are associated with those relationships and that's that's really deep stuff. Thank you. And you know, it reminds me,

00:42:54

Speaker 2: I mean, here's a small example. So my mother had lung cancer and she was terminal at a certain point.

00:43:01

Speaker 2: And I remember there were a couple of times when she asked me

00:43:05

Speaker 2: what would dying be like?

00:43:07

Speaker 2: This is my true response, but it's also what's in the book. Well mom,

00:43:11

Speaker 2: what do you want for dinner tonight? So, I was trying to make a quip, I was trying not to deal with the substance of what she had asked me which was waiting. And the third time she asked me that I knew I was beyond, you know, dinner preparation.

00:43:25

Speaker 2: And I joined the conversation, she led me to walk through that door with her and we had one of the most meaningful conversations of our lives and I was able to give her some information, was able to assuage some of her concerns, but it brought us closer. And yeah, that's another part of what the book is about, but that's also

00:43:45

Speaker 2: why we care about what we do, Daniel. You know, we're trying to forge connections between

00:43:50

Speaker 2: people we care about.

00:43:53

Speaker 2: It's the ideally the substance of what we do at Emily Post. I

00:43:58

Speaker 2: love thinking of etiquette as being about relationships and how we support and foster

00:44:04

Speaker 2: relationships that matter to us in ways that we would want to. And it's a theme for lizzie and I at Emily Post that people often turn to advice experts and consultants at times where things matter the most and often done to those are transitional moments in life. We know that people turn to Emily post

00:44:24

Speaker 2: or etiquette civility experts at times like weddings or a birth, but we also know that it's around death, that many people are instantly thrown into situations where the stakes are elevated where things matter and

00:44:38

Speaker 2: where it's not our usual world and our usual life. And there are different expectations and different things to think about and keep in mind. And

00:44:47

Speaker 2: I want to get more more focused, particularly about the end of the book that you were talking about. But before we get into that, that's where I saw some real where I just said to myself, boy, that's going to be useful for me as someone writing about this material to really focus on some important things.

00:45:01

Speaker 2: But I I'm interested in that broader facilitation of relationships. And the first two sections of the book where you look at some of the peculiarities of getting older and sort of reflect on your relationship to those things before you encountered them going through them and thinking about your parents, sort of on the others

00:45:21

Speaker 2: other side of a lot of them also.

00:45:23

Speaker 2: Well, I hope that I'm going to say here to answer your question because this is what this is what came to mind, part of what I learned from this book after I was done. And I have to admit it was after I was done that

00:45:35

Speaker 2: what I was trying to do was to facilitate conversations between generations among family members.

00:45:41

Speaker 2: And that required listening

00:45:45

Speaker 2: that required having an open heart and not being judgmental and also sort of trying to avoid or

00:45:55

Speaker 2: move away from the summer

00:45:56

Speaker 2: our fears.

00:45:58

Speaker 2: And so I've seen after the fact how that has really worked to bring people together. But the really the inside I had was, you know, in this world that we live now, that there's so much polarization.

00:46:09

Speaker 2: It's almost as though this little model of how we talk about

00:46:13

Speaker 2: aging and illness and death is a model for how we can talk about

00:46:19

Speaker 2: what's happening today. And it's really the same thing. You know, we have red and blue and this and that. But if we can be more open, if we can be more vulnerable, if we can speak from our hearts, we will be speaking person to person. And I think that's

00:46:33

Speaker 2: yeah, I was just kind of stunned that I kind of backed into that and learned that some of people I was talking to,

00:46:39

Speaker 2: It's remarkable. It's it's nice to just hear someone say it. I mean it sounds commonsensical that the things that connect us fundamentally

00:46:48

Speaker 2: are going to be useful for connecting us in all kinds of ways. The human experiences

00:46:54

Speaker 2: so unique, so particular and

00:46:57

Speaker 2: there are certain

00:46:59

Speaker 2: aspects to it that we share and we share with everyone that our realities of our biology and

00:47:06

Speaker 2: um

00:47:07

Speaker 2: those things, those things are are are so important and when they rise up in our personal lives, they instantly become the most important things. And I think there's a prioritization

00:47:18

Speaker 2: that comes into relief and with that contrast that's there's a lot to learn from. And I know that this the process of writing this book took a long time because you talk about it in the in the book itself, it's something we talk a lot about on this show. It was a question I queued up, I've been meant to ask you right at the start, but we'll get to it now,

00:47:37

Speaker 2: Share a little bit about the process. Um and you're already doing that talking about for what you learn, how you how you approach it from the beginning to the end. But I am I remembering that it took almost 10 years to write this book. Well, in a way it did. So um the way the book started, and it was not I did not have a book in mind.

00:47:55

Speaker 2: My parents were in their 70s, I was a little bit north of 50.

00:47:58

Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:47:59

Speaker 2: And um I began to notice things that they were doing that I thought were in the vernacular of the book stupid, but I wasn't using that word then I thought they were harming themselves and I was I was worried and I wanted to do better. So I started keeping this list and this list went on and on and in that way I was sort of sort of a smart alec

00:48:22

Speaker 2: eldest son who was going to do better than his parents. And

00:48:26

Speaker 2: That list got to about 100 items. And then I wrote a column for the New York Times.

00:48:32

Speaker 2: And what surprised me was it was on the most read list for about two weeks and people started sending me their own lists and I got about 200 lists from people who are doing the exact same thing I call them. I call us, you know, the snitch spies,

00:48:47

Speaker 2: which is your siblings. I'm sure there were no middle or are younger siblings in there. I don't know where you are in your lineup. So it seemed to be a vein that these generations, we're trying to learn from our parents and also trying to help our parents. And so that's how it was born into a book.

00:49:07

Speaker 2: And so overall it did take about 10 years. You know, the writing itself was probably about a year and a half and the lockdown last year, you know,

00:49:15

Speaker 2: ironically turned out to be very useful to me because I stayed at my best and it was largely writing all the time.

00:49:24

Speaker 2: I want to tell a little story, but I promise it'll come back around right sometimes sports fan and I don't know if you're aware, but it was a tragedy in my personal life that tom brady left the new England patriots and went down to florida started playing for Tampa Bay and won a Super Bowl in his first year down there.

00:49:39

Speaker 2: And the owner of that team was talking as he was receiving the Lombardi trophy and he was saying, you know, uh, my father used to tell me something, so this is a, an owner of an NFL franchise and he says, he said, if you wanted to know where you're going, find someone who's been down that road or find someone who's been there.

00:49:56

Speaker 2: And um, I don't know why that particular moment stuck in my mind, but I found myself craving discussions with people that were older than me. And um, as I get older and older, mid forties now I'm finding that

00:50:12

Speaker 2: that desire

00:50:13

Speaker 2: is coming to me stronger and stronger. I'm appreciating this conversation between the insights you brought in your book and I'm appreciating the encouragement to have conversations and to look up the food chain are up the elder hierarchy and to invest in those conversations in ways that are really serious and who knows what might emerge. Following that advice

00:50:33

Speaker 2: that did come around and let me, let me say, let me give you a quick before I can talk a little bit of substance.

00:50:39

Speaker 2: But wasn't it Emily opposed to said, don't talk about politics, religion or tom brady

00:50:44

Speaker 2: pretty much tom brady. He is like the most controversial are among the most controversial, you know, to the other point that you're making and I talk about this in the book and it's really the importance of having friendships that cross generational lines

00:51:04

Speaker 2: and

00:51:05

Speaker 2: you know, in the way that we live in various silos by our, by our identities. We also do by our generational labels, you know, they're baby boomers and millennials, gen X, y and z ears and sometimes we're sparring with each other the whole whole, okay boomer things from the millennials was part of that. And uh,

00:51:23

Speaker 2: yeah, I learned that there's also a concept called perennials

00:51:26

Speaker 2: and you can be 25 you can be mid forties, you can be sixties and be a perennial and a perennial is someone who just remains um evergreen, enthusiastic, curious and wanting to learn. And so I talk about some examples in the book, it's a personal goal of mine to stay a perennial and to connect with other perennials. I think I asked you in an early email exchange setting up this interview, I said, you know, I'm still of an age where I look forward to getting older because I feel like I did uh

00:51:59

Speaker 2: invest me with more cultural authority, more respect things that I crave, confessional moment. And then I sort of asked, tried to be funny, you know, does that mean I'm young or something like that? And uh, I really appreciate this idea of the perennial this idea that you don't need to um,

00:52:18

Speaker 2: fall into a certain category that's determined by the year that you were born, right, and that we have, you know,

00:52:26

Speaker 2: we learn from our elders. We learned from our youngers, so to speak. And that's really important in keeping an open mind and having new perspectives and also respecting each other and getting to know people for who they are. Something I learned recently about neural plasticity. Apparently a lot of the studies that showed that young brains were the best at learning

00:52:52

Speaker 2: didn't take into full account the full capacities of adults. That there's a lot more neural plasticity than early research that was popularized, succeed to indicate. And I do I did talk in the book and one of the things I won't do, one of the stupid things is I won't stay in my ruts. I will try to

00:53:11

Speaker 2: change things up. And an example that I talk about is

00:53:14

Speaker 2: for years I would walk my Jack Russell terrier. The exact same route every day I could have been blindfolded and so I decided to go the opposite way. One day I saw different people. My neighborhood look different sides of the trees. Just changing the direction the puppy marked all new places. But it was very, it was a small change

00:53:37

Speaker 2: but it really opened my mind in a different way. So there are all kinds of ways that we can change things up and experience things new without having to go someplace far or go deep into a book or a tv show. It's sort of right here.

00:53:53

Speaker 2: I also want to be sure that we focus our discussion just a little bit on something that happened for me at the end of the book, in the what I think it was the third section. You do a series of things that are really about preparing for death.

00:54:06

Speaker 2: And the etiquette writer in me couldn't help but notice the chapter heads were essentially addressing some of the most asked etiquette questions about end of life. How do I organize a funeral? How do I write an obituary?

00:54:20

Speaker 2: The really practical things. And you were giving advice or suggesting that people who are anticipating their death are aware that it is coming, think about participating in some of these things and

00:54:34

Speaker 2: it was such moving advice. I found some of the very practical and one particular piece of advice very moving. I was flagging it in my head as this is a series of articles about some of the most practical considerations that you're likely to confront and some ideas for how to do it.

00:54:52

Speaker 2: The idea of participating in that yourself was something I wanted to ask you about to go back and quote Emily post again, if you don't mind. One of the things that she said, I'm paraphrasing is that etiquette is about consideration of others when when we're getting to wherever we are in that end of life part,

00:55:12

Speaker 2: most of us are in denial. I remember my dad once once said, and he was a journalism professor and a writer and he said, you know, if I die

00:55:21

Speaker 2: and he was about 80 then you've taught me a lot about the subjunctive one to use it. And this really would be when I die, you know, and when I die and you know, and when you die daniel, whatever that is and whatever late stage that is. So it's difficult for us to approach many of these topics. And I do in the point being if you can own them some, if you can start to get rid of the stuff in your house, if you can

00:55:45

Speaker 2: pass along your wishes for services and someone you are helping those who love you. And one of the things that

00:55:54

Speaker 2: irked me in my own family was my parents always would say to all three of us, we don't want to be a burden to you. And then they would make choices that frankly were burdensome to us.

00:56:06

Speaker 2: Not that we didn't love them, but there was a little bit of a dis congruent. So that that is a lot of you know, what's in that last section. And you know, you referred to one part that was moving. I'm guessing that it was the letters from the mom who had brain cancer

00:56:21

Speaker 2: who in the weeks before she died, she wrote three letters to each of her four Children to be opened at different points in their lives. And I thought, you know, Jackie's in was a great friend of mine. and I thought what an amazing amount of love and consideration to marshal your strength and your heart and your fingers. Because she was largely paralyzed at that point to write those letters. And jerry's in one of the sons allowed me to reproduce um,

00:56:47

Speaker 2: a couple of his letters

00:56:49

Speaker 2: as a parent of young Children. I couldn't help sort of reflect on, you know, what would be the essential message is, what would I want to tell my kids and what would I want to leave behind for them

00:57:02

Speaker 2: to here maybe in 15 years or 2030 40 years, even depending on how you approach that process. And it was inspiring. Was inspiring to think about, well, thank you. You know, and I tried to use some humor in that section two and for the chapter about right. You know,

00:57:19

Speaker 2: some people want to write their obituaries and some of the people I talked to. You know, I don't trust anyone in my family to know proper grammar when to use the serial comma. So I want to own it for that reason. Or I want to tell my own narrative and I don't want someone else to be writing writing my narrative. So those are some of the funnier ways to get into this serious topic.

00:57:40

Speaker 2: Well, we talk about core principles on the show a lot the values that are meant to be expressed in the actions that we think of as manners or etiquette and consideration, respect and honesty are our guiding principles? You've already very specifically brought consideration to the discussion and here's where I would

00:57:58

Speaker 2: look back to sincerity or honesty. We all want to tell our own stories and yet where the truth lies of that story is probably also something that is a matter of perspective. Just a little bit

00:58:09

Speaker 2: that and there can be multiple truths. I believe

00:58:12

Speaker 2: the art of obituary writing. You talk about the serial comma there was old coded lightly the new york times obituaries in particular where you needed a translation service to understand exactly what they were saying with the economy that was invested in those that short word count that was available to you.

00:58:29

Speaker 2: That's short and that expensive word count. And also how it's less prevalent now. But how the nature of one's illness has often been camouflage for all sorts of reasons. You know. And if we're talking about honesty, that's something to consider, boy, we can have you back to talk about the blurring of the public and the private. I know that's been a topic of yours previously, something you thought a lot about

00:58:53

Speaker 2: in terms of online security and all kinds of very contemporary issues about how the public and private are

00:59:00

Speaker 2: requiring more management

00:59:02

Speaker 2: from us as individuals than they ever have.

00:59:04

Speaker 2: That's a generational thing. That's kind of accelerating and you know, in a direction where

00:59:10

Speaker 2: there's often very little distinction between the two and with this book, I am finding that myself because I've been very

00:59:17

Speaker 2: open about myself and my family and I'm like,

00:59:21

Speaker 2: where is my zone of privacy? Those are those are such tricky questions. I really appreciate the generosity of spirit that comes with sharing so much of yourself. It's not easy,

00:59:34

Speaker 2: Stephen, I thank you so much for taking the time to be with us here today, and I'm just going to tease our audience to say that you have joined us in the past to answer etiquette questions and I'm really looking forward to getting you back sometime in the future to join lizzie and I, for that earlier part of the show and we can apply some of your insight to some of our listener questions as well.

00:59:55

Speaker 2: Well, I would love that, I know we've done that before and you know, it's fun and it's always interesting to see

01:00:02

Speaker 2: yep shades of black, white and gray come out.

01:00:05

Speaker 2: Absolutely, We've got a fresh batch for you whenever you're ready

01:00:10

Speaker 2: and say hi to Lizzy for me,

01:00:12

Speaker 2: we'll do steven, thank you so much for joining us. It's been a pleasure

01:00:15

Speaker 1: dan, thank you so much for bringing us that interview. It's definitely not always the easiest subject matter, but it is so nice to find both the humor and the practical moments within the topic of aging and death and

01:00:32

Speaker 1: illness and I really, really appreciate it. Getting to hear you and Stephen

01:00:36

Speaker 2: talk about it,

01:00:37

Speaker 2: Thank you so much lizzie post. I hope that our audience enjoys it as

01:00:40

Speaker 1: well.

01:00:45

Speaker 2: We like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing and that can come in so many forms. Today we have a salute from kristen,

01:00:56

Speaker 1: dear dan and lizzie. I would first like to start off my etiquette salute by saying how much I love your show. I'm relatively new to your podcast but decided to binge listen to it in chronological order. Starting from episode one, I find it such a treat to listen to on my 30 minute drive to and from work every day. My etiquette salute goes out to my wonderful new neighbors,

01:01:16

Speaker 1: my husband and I just recently moved into our first home after eight plus years of apartment life. We decided to buy our home in a part of town that we felt would be best for building community as apartment life can be quite isolating

01:01:31

Speaker 1: and we wish to know and trust our neighbors especially since we were looking to start a family in the next few years.

01:01:37

Speaker 1: That being said, we had no idea just how courteous and caring our new neighbors would be. We were visited on and off over the first two weeks while we were painting and getting things ready for the big move by not one, not two but seven of our new neighbors, all of whom brought us wonderful gifts, such as pies, cookies, cakes, flowers, etcetera.

01:02:01

Speaker 1: Now being an awesome etiquette listener that I am, I promptly sat down to write thank you notes to each of these lovely families to let them know how grateful I was for their extremely thoughtful gestures. But the generosity did not stop there. One day while I was checking my mail, one of the neighbors that had previously visited us stopped by and invited us to a block party at the house of another neighbor who we had not yet met.

01:02:27

Speaker 1: At first I was so nervous to go

01:02:30

Speaker 1: firstly because I wanted so badly to leave a good first impression and become close with all my neighbors. And secondly, because I was planning to attend a party that I had been invited to by someone other than the host.

01:02:43

Speaker 1: My husband and I tried to prepare ourselves as much as possible by getting a hostess gift and not arriving too early or too late,

01:02:50

Speaker 1: but it did not stop me from being a nervous bowl of jell o on our walk up the street to the party,

01:02:56

Speaker 1: our nerves went away immediately upon entry as the hostess greeted us by name with a huge smile on her face and a warm hug. We were immediately made to feel at home and introduced to all of our neighbors.

01:03:10

Speaker 1: The evening was so lovely. In fact, we talked about it for days and decided to write yet another thank you note

01:03:17

Speaker 1: to the courteous and accommodating hostess.

01:03:19

Speaker 1: It was so nice to see that the lady who had invited us had been sure to notify the hostess and to go as far as to share our names so that we could be greeted properly and with open arms, we are so grateful to our entire community for welcoming us to our new neighborhood and making us feel as if we immediately fit in.

01:03:42

Speaker 1: So with that I give many thanks to my Coleridge neighbors, much love kristen from north Carolina. That's that's like all the neighbor etiquette in 11 great salute.

01:03:54

Speaker 2: Post your squeal at the end of that salute was the way I was feeling pretty much throughout the whole thing right?

01:03:59

Speaker 1: Like you just yes, yes. Oh this is good and good feeling good etiquette there.

01:04:07

Speaker 1: I was such a great salute, christian, thank you so much for writing in and with such detail and we're so glad that you are loving your new home.

01:04:17

Speaker 1: I second that

01:04:22

Speaker 2: and thank you for listening.

01:04:24

Speaker 1: Thank you to everyone who sent us something and who supports us on patreon. Please

01:04:29

Speaker 2: do connect with us and share this show with friends, family and co workers. However you like to share podcasts,

01:04:35

Speaker 1: you can send us questions feedback and salutes by email to awesome medicated Emily post dot com by phone. Leave us a message or text at 802858 kind. That's 828585463 on twitter. We are at Emily post inst on instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette and the Emily Post Institute.

01:04:57

Speaker 2: Please consider becoming a sustaining member. You can find out more about this by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette. Where you will also find the unedited full version of the interview that we conducted with Stephen Petro. You can also subscribe to the ads version of our show on Spotify or your favorite podcast app and please consider leaving us a review that helps our show ranking which helps more people find awesome etiquette. Our

01:05:21

Speaker 1: show is edited by chris Albertine and assistant produced by Brigitte Dowd. Thanks, chris christian Bridget.

01:05:30

Speaker 1: Mhm.

01:05:40

Speaker 2: Just

01:05:42

Speaker 2: Mhm.