Episode 365 - One a Day

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Speaker 1: maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social goodness. See it's old fashioned,

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Speaker 1: watch how busy post and they're supposed to act as host and hostess, they know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person, real friendliness.

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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to awesome etiquette where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. On today's show, we take your questions on birthday gift requests, asking about a loved one's remains handling estrangement when not many mutual friends know about it. And a question about whether a neighbor's request is polite or unrealistic

00:00:48

Speaker 1: for awesome etiquette sustaining members. Our question of the week is about using Venmo and social media to casually crowdsource a bachelorette plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a postscript

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Speaker 1: where we interview etiquette author Donald James about his new book manners will take you where brains and money went

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Speaker 1: all that's coming up,

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Speaker 1: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute. I'm lizzie post and I'm dan post sending hey, because how's it going? This fine day? Well it's going well, it's

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Speaker 1: um it's a Wednesday. So I'm always, I'm always loving Wednesdays because you and I are in office together back at it and that always feels like such together team is here, you know

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Speaker 1: and that just feels great, I got to admit I'm a big fan of the Wednesday and for many people it's a hump day, but for us it's a let's go kind of day for you. It's so let's go. For me, it is a hump day because I'm halfway through. That's true and for those of

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Speaker 1: our audience who weren't here at the start of the pandemic, I switched my schedule, I watch our daughters Anisha and Ari on monday and Tuesday, so my weekend is now

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Speaker 1: monday and Tuesday effectively,

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Speaker 1: we gotta, we gotta get you improved back on the same weekend schedule just so that you guys can have weekends together again, it's been a long time, it's been a really long time and that's, we've been going through this entire pandemic, we're still going through it um some areas more so than others, but it really has been such a long time of disruption

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Speaker 1: and it's funny because we've we've gotten used to it in a lot of ways, like in regards for instance to our schedule and things like that and working around it and that sort of thing, but the reminder every now and again that this isn't our normal and you know what I mean? It's it's a it's this

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Speaker 1: new normal, but the old normal, but where's your comparison? It's interesting to kind of be in these spaces

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Speaker 1: and I wonder what it's going to be like in six months from now, what it's gonna be like three months from now, I I certainly haven't been able to easily predict the last year and what would, or wouldn't happen, I know dan and I have had a lot of conversations where we have been trying to predict things. I know my eyes just just opened wide hearing you talk about potentially predicting anything for the last

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Speaker 1: six months, 18 months. No, it's definitely been interesting but it makes it makes Wednesday a really different day for us in the scheme of our larger work context, Wednesday happens to be a day for us. It does lizzie post, I so appreciate the reminder that

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Speaker 1: The way that you and I are operating right now isn't and I'm gonna put the air quotes that no one can see around it normal or the normal that we had worked together in for 10 years. Almost long time. Yeah, we've been doing this new routine long enough now I keep saying at 18 months, 18 months because I have to remind myself that

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Speaker 1: that's long enough for it to start to feel

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Speaker 1: normal, but it's not necessarily a normal that I want and the particular a normal that I don't want that I'm talking about is that time away from family that despite being so compact in terms of the range of our lives, how much we do, how far we travel, how much time we spend apart the way Putin, I have shifted our work schedules, we don't have as much down time as a family even though we spend so much time together that that that moment of relaxation and reprieve, We have to really work to carve them out around our homework schedules and anyway, I appreciate the acknowledgement because it is different and

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Speaker 1: it's sometimes hard to remember that because we've been doing it for so long. Right, right. It's all kinds of different things I feel like have been like that. I I think about my sister and her husband and you know getting them out for like a date night, you know and things like that and as

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Speaker 1: um it's just little things like that where it's like oh my goodness, that's right, like typically

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Speaker 1: there are other things that would be going on anyway. It's been on the mind lately, we'll get there, we'll get there

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Speaker 1: and there's one other thing lizzie post this makes me think about etiquette totally. I mean how do we develop norms and why do they change and

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Speaker 1: when changes happen? Do we go back to old norms? Do we accept new norms? What we're talking about is social change and the conditions that force it and then how you evaluate it and how you decide what's worth fighting through what's worth fighting to get back and what you like about new conditions,

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Speaker 1: awesome etiquette audience. Please write into us and tell us about your new normals or the things that you are excited to get back to, if there's something from our past lives you've been longing to return to,

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Speaker 1: We would love to hear from you and how you're experiencing the changes in standards both for routines and expectations in your life. I second that request and in the spirit of working hard and carving out some family time we have some questions to get too lazy but we do, we do, we do, let's do it, let's do it,

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Speaker 1: awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions and boy, do we need them? Please please email them to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com Or leave a voicemail or text at 802858 kinds. That's 8028585463. You can also reach us on social media on twitter. We are at Emily Post in space

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Speaker 1: on instagram were at Emily Post institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media posts so that we know you want your question on the show.

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Speaker 1: Our first question on the show this week is about a brighter birthday ahead.

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Speaker 1: Hello dan and lizzie, I absolutely adore your podcast and the nods to the evolution of etiquette. I would love if you could consider my question for the podcast as a bit of background. I live abroad in London and my family lives in the U. S. Every year for my birthday. I have family asked what I would like,

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Speaker 1: I supply an item or list with links that corresponds with items I know they like to purchase and can afford, I eat. My grandparents love to buy something special, usually something for a formal event.

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Speaker 1: However, my issue is that a good majority of the time this is completely ignored or someone doesn't ask and the gift me with gift cards to american websites and stores which I cannot use or send the gifts to my parents home. What is a nice way to request that if they wish to give me a gift, it be either from a UK site or send it to my UK address rather than my parents home.

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Speaker 1: My wish isn't a sound horribly demanding but to be able to be more sincere when I say thank you and can actually let them know I received the gift promptly rather than wait for a call with my mom to let me know. So and so sent this,

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Speaker 1: Thanks again for the wonderful podcast, all the best birthday girl. Birthday girl, thank you so much for the question, you know, suggestions really do make everything easier, but I have to say,

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Speaker 1: I feel like birthday girl is already doing the suggestions. I would, which is sending links to UK websites instead, you know, which also might help with shipping if some people are having that issue and that's why they're sending it

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Speaker 1: uh to the parents house instead. Um it makes it a lot easier to just buy from a UK company that can ship right there and it's not, you know, international shipping, but I feel like

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Speaker 1: birthday girl is doing the things that that I would suggest to do dan the most. I'm feeling like I could add to it would be to really talk with mom and dad about how you would really appreciate it if they could help spread the word. If someone does ask, you know what, what daughter is looking for for birthday and how best to go about it.

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Speaker 1: Um, or even, you know, share with friends. So we found it was so easy to actually order from this UK website because then shipping was in country and data.

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Speaker 1: I feel like maybe getting parents on board to spread the word would be a good idea here. I had a very similar thought. I was thinking about how registries function as suggestions but that they're not demands

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Speaker 1: and you certainly wouldn't do a registry. No, but it gives me some indication about the etiquette ground that we're walking on. And it's a fine line between making it easier for people to get you gifts which they appreciate and go being too specific or giving too much direction that

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Speaker 1: isn't appreciated. And

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Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of awareness of that subtlety in the way the question is asked and I agree with you. I think spreading the word as personally as possible as one of the easiest ways to strike the right tone and get the information across well. And the idea of the parents who are

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Speaker 1: perhaps interacting with some of these people more if they are the people that they're sending these gifts to would be a great place to start, they might have opportunities where it's not a special message. Oh could you send the birthday gift here instead of here this year?

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Speaker 1: But in conversation at the club or over dinner or when they do talk on the phone on

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Speaker 1: thursday nights after bridge it's an easier message to deliver the parents. You were just imagining totally one other idea that popped into my mind and it's more of a practical suggestion. We've had several international students in our training program who have maintained

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Speaker 1: and I don't know exactly how it's done. I wish I I wish I had the information available in at hand

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Speaker 1: essentially shipping forwarding services in the US where they have a U. S. Address that you can send things to. And my assumption is that they assume the cost of the international shipping that happens after that but that there are services that are available for people who are overseas who are

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Speaker 1: expecting to receive packages on a semi regular basis or even a regular basis that works to receive them and move them on to you? And it might be worth thinking about something. I don't know how long you're going to be in London for.

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Speaker 1: Are there any other suggestions that we have for birthday girl?

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Speaker 1: The only other thing I can think of is I think a version of probably what are the girls doing already which is be sure to be very clear and include an overseas address that has all of the information

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Speaker 1: if it's somebody's first time sending something overseas or even if they're very familiar with the process. Oftentimes you need a zip code that's got a slightly different number of numbers in it and you need to know to fill in zeros for the blank spaces before Fedex will receive it. Or

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Speaker 1: there might be a country code or you might need to be really sure that you list the country on the address on the right line and people aren't used to doing that. So I can tell you, it would encourage someone like me who doesn't ship things internationally very often to feel more confident about approaching that process in getting it right.

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Speaker 1: If you're very specific about how you share the address and you even include uh

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Speaker 1: a shipping company that you know has fields in their form for an international shipment that look exactly like the information you've included. That can be really helpful. So I've had people send me directions for

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Speaker 1: having a Fedex delivery work at a certain apartment complex and borane or something like that where the street address looks a little different. But Fedex can get it there. You just need to know how to fill it in and of course you'd only be sending this information to folks who have said, oh I have a gift, I'd really like to send you, where should I send it this year.

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Speaker 1: I think that's one of the other things. It's helpful if the mom and dad are parents and friends can do the spreading via word of mouth. But it's also important to not just send out the announcement to people who may or may not get gifts for you. It's a subtle line

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Speaker 1: birthday girl. We hope that this answer helps you navigate this question and the in the future birthday gifts arrive in a timely manner and you feel as thankful as you want to

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Speaker 2: feel.

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Speaker 1: Well maybe it will help you to know just what we found out about honesty and we found out plenty to be honest. May sound easy.

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Speaker 1: Some of the time it is, but it can be a real problem, especially when wanting to be honest conflicts with other things you want to do.

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Speaker 1: Our next question is titled regarding remains.

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Speaker 1: Hello. My brother's funeral was the week after our state opened up more, which means many of us were seeing each other for the first time since the holidays of 2019.

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Speaker 1: It was both festive and funeral.

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Speaker 1: In the midst of this, a late arriving nephew asked where his uncle. Oh, I paused. Certainly I hadn't overlooked a casket. Why he is cremated. I said

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Speaker 1: then where's the urn?

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Speaker 1: I admit until then I had not noticed that the main table held flowers and photos and vases, but no actual earn.

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Speaker 1: We both agreed. We couldn't ask. But later I did when I had a quiet moment alone,

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Speaker 1: we couldn't decide. My sister in law admitted stating some wanted one thing and some wanted another. I felt awful for asking and for her embarrassment at admitting this. But at some point

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Speaker 1: I would actually like to know where my brother's remains are, but I don't want to ask such a direct intrusive question

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Speaker 1: in conversation with others. I am learning that many people don't know where a brother took their parents or exact spots and would love to visit the spot and pay respects

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Speaker 1: with small towns and burials. This was known, but with cremation becoming more common often one is not present for this

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Speaker 1: is this considered very private, somewhat private

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Speaker 1: who is told and how is one told regarding the final disposition of the ashes. C c thank you so much for this question. We're sorry to hear about your loss and at the same time really appreciate the thought that

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Speaker 1: you've given to how we treat remains then how people interact around figuring out how to treat remains.

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Speaker 1: I think that we can start with the really practical, which is that the remains are

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Speaker 1: given to the next of kin and the decision is up to them to decide what to do with it. And

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Speaker 1: that could be different people in different situations, but it's the family members that are closest to the person who's passed

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Speaker 1: as far as how they tell other people. It's really up to them and the question of how you approach them and ask if they haven't decided to tell other people is definitely worth considering. But

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Speaker 1: while everything at these times can feel very personal, because we're talking about such a significant event, someone dying

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Speaker 1: that it can often times be hard to tell what is personal and private and what is just very personal. And this is one of those cases where as long as you're, how is well managed, as long as how you ask the question is considered and done

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Speaker 1: well, you're in good shape to ask a question. It's a really reasonable thing to want to know. And

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Speaker 1: for all of the reasons that you suggest there are certainly some places in this world that I think of as sacred because I know that ashes of people who are important to me were spread there and

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Speaker 1: and

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Speaker 1: for all of the good reasons that you might want to know, it's okay to ask those questions. I think you're absolutely right dan. I think it is okay to ask the questions and I do think that they are not unexpected questions at this particular time.

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Speaker 1: There are probably a lot of people who are interested in knowing that whether it's because they want to visit the space or just to simply know so that they can have that

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Speaker 1: Sort of resting image of their loved one in their mind.

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Speaker 1: I think it does give us a sort of sense of relief for a sense of comfort to know that bit of information. So I wouldn't say it's unexpected or taboo conversation in any way. I think you were so right to think about the how in terms of the ask and I would go so far as to also say

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Speaker 1: you're how in terms of your response to what you get told, I think is also important, you know, in the case of the sister in law, if you could sense that she felt embarrassed, then reassuring her that you understand, it's a complicated issue

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Speaker 1: that you hope you'll be able to just hear what they decide in the end once they do come to a conclusion,

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Speaker 1: I think would be both a good thing in terms of recognizing what the sister in law might have been putting out there in her experience of it, as well as stating what you hope to achieve at the very, very end of it all, which is just to know the final resting place

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Speaker 1: at the risk of focusing on the negative. I want to just mention a couple of the things that could make this kind of question not be received as well. Just the little cautionary things to think about. You want to be sure that your interest is genuine. That you're not asking with flip curiosity that you're treating the issue itself with the seriousness that it deserves.

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Speaker 1: Another thing that I would take care with is that

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Speaker 1: your question doesn't carry with it. Any hint of criticism or judgment you really want to ask that question and as open a way as possible, you're really looking for information and you're ready to to hear or accept really anything that that someone replies with and

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Speaker 1: that might include, we don't know or we've decided to keep it private

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Speaker 1: and being ready to accept those two answers as an extreme example of someone not wanting to tell you,

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Speaker 1: leaves you in really good shape to hear just about anything that might come up.

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Speaker 1: Things like lizzie just mentioned like there was some conflict or some embarrassment or some things that you might not have thought about. That might be the reason you don't know already.

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Speaker 1: I do feel like having in your back pocket that really positive and simple language of thank you for letting me know.

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Speaker 1: Even if someone tells you actually we're going to keep that private saying thank you for letting me know that you know in a very sincere way

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Speaker 1: gives you that appreciation that you simply received an answer, even even in the case of see where the answer is, we don't know what's going to happen. Uh Thank you for letting me know. And if you're comfortable with keeping me posted, I'd love to know what the

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Speaker 1: end result ends up being I think is perfectly acceptable in that type of a situation. If you haven't heard we're keeping it private.

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Speaker 1: See, thank you so much for bringing us this question today

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Speaker 1: questions about end of life details are often ones where we feel

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Speaker 1: very nervous, very awkward, very unsure and it can feel so much better when you have a sense of what's okay and what's not okay. And questions about the remains, questions about how things are going to be done, whether that's the type of service, whether that's how someone's remains are prepared, whether it's where they will end up resting. Finally,

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Speaker 1: all sorts of different questions come up and again, they can feel really, really personal. But as dan said, making sure that you approach these topics delicately

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Speaker 1: and with a lot of openness will go a long, long way towards not only answering questions but building confidence during difficult times. C thank you for the question. We hope that our answer helps.

00:21:05

Speaker 1: Our next question has the mysterious title, Still Waters Run deep.

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Speaker 1: Hi lizzie and dan, big fan of your podcast. I have an awkward situation that I'm not sure how to handle. I have two siblings, I don't talk to a brother and a sister.

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Speaker 1: We grew up in a very small town and while I am not connected with them on social media, many people I know are

00:21:27

Speaker 1: my brother just graduated and has a new, exciting job and my sister is expecting a baby and I wish them both the best. Even though we don't speak,

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Speaker 1: most people aren't aware we don't speak and I'm not one to bring it up

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Speaker 1: with all the new and exciting times in all our lives. I'm unsure how to answer questions from mutual friends and even some relatives.

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Speaker 1: It's one thing when people ask how my brother and sister are and I can just say fine, but many times people go into great detail, congrats to your brother, you must be so excited. What is next for him? Or does sister know if she's having a boy or girl yet? Does the baby have a name?

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Speaker 1: I don't know the answers to these questions and I'm not one to lie, but I haven't even seen them in quite a few years so I am unsure how to handle the situation.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to seem rude or disinterested and I genuinely appreciate the well wishes of well meaning friends and family,

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Speaker 1: but I also am hesitant to say we don't speak for fear it gets back to them and they get the wrong idea that I am talking about them behind their backs.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for any insight or guidance you can provide. I know I'm not the only one in this situation and hope others could benefit from this. Also anonymous, anonymous. Thank you so much for the question

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Speaker 1: dan. I have an etiquette move here. I don't know if I'm feeling sports around the corner. I was, you know like football season's coming, but I think of this as like direct truth and pivot and so you directly answer the question,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm not sure and then pivot and you move on to a different subject. So if they ask, you know, how is the baby or what is the baby going to be a boy or a girl, what are they going to name the baby? You know, I'm not sure. I'm so excited for them, but I actually don't know the answer to that

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Speaker 1: and then move on. Hey, I heard such and such about your daughter or

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Speaker 1: I was really excited to hear this happened. You know, just pivoting to something else in the conversation that you can move on to. I think it's fine to admit that you don't know without them saying, I don't know because we don't talk.

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Speaker 1: I think you can just say, you know, I'm not sure about that or oh, I don't know what his next step are. We're just so excited for where he is right now.

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Speaker 1: I feel like that's all perfectly fine to do Lizzy. I think that's really good advice, the idea to get your information out. But then pivot and pivot to safer territory and it's very much

00:23:54

Speaker 1: in line with the advice that I was thinking about giving, which is also that it's really wise not to air the dirty laundry of your family in public and whether it's a small town where we know social circles are small or the great big world where we know social circles get smaller every day.

00:24:13

Speaker 1: It's really, really wise to be careful with how we talk about other people and particularly how we share information about others that could be viewed as negative information, like

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Speaker 1: they're estranged from their siblings

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Speaker 1: and there might be very good reasons for that, there might be reasons that people understand, but

00:24:33

Speaker 1: in general, that's something that without more context,

00:24:37

Speaker 1: many people would view as negative. So I think taking care with how you share that if it's not widely known is really wise. There's a big difference between the sound of, oh, I really wouldn't know that versus oh, I don't know what they're going to name the baby, but I'm so happy for them. I think one invites a bit of a question mark and the other one just sounds like I'm not, I just realized I'm not aware of that. Can you hear the difference dan? I sure can anonymous. We hope our suggestions help and that it makes future conversations when you're running into mutual friends easy and breezy

00:25:17

Speaker 1: in any family, we are bound to encounter a certain amount of rivalry among the brothers and sisters

00:25:23

Speaker 1: library for attention

00:25:25

Speaker 1: was theme

00:25:26

Speaker 1: and it's not too strong to say for love.

00:25:34

Speaker 2: Mhm

00:25:35

Speaker 2: Mhm

00:25:37

Speaker 1: Our next question is titled polite or unreasonable.

00:25:41

Speaker 1: Hi lizzie and dan, thank you so much for making such a wonderful podcast that has introduced me to the delightful world of etiquette. I love hearing your take on situations week to week and I have a situation I would like your opinion slash advice on

00:25:55

Speaker 1: to start. I'm in my mid twenties and currently in graduate school on the East coast. A few weeks ago I moved into my new multi storey apartment building on the second floor. The other morning I opened my door and saw a card with my apartment number on the front of it placed on my doormat.

00:26:12

Speaker 1: I opened it to find a note from my downstairs neighbor which kindly requested that I be mindful of her presence with my footsteps and with my window A. C. Unit. I immediately felt terrible that I had disrupted her and embarrassed that she felt she had to write a note which was written very nicely by the way to ask me to be quiet.

00:26:31

Speaker 1: I immediately wrote a note back apologizing for disturbing her and letting her know that I would be more conscious when moving around the apartment and using my A. C. Unit.

00:26:40

Speaker 1: However, the more I thought about the note, the more I started to feel like her request was unreasonable, allow me to explain

00:26:48

Speaker 1: my apartment building is quite old and has no central air. Therefore we are allowed to have window units to cool the apartments during the summer. I acknowledge that my window unit is quite loud and could definitely be heard by someone who sleeps with their windows open.

00:27:05

Speaker 1: I try not to run the unit during the night because it disrupts my sleep. But if it's very hot out, I can't sleep due to the heat either

00:27:13

Speaker 1: Box fans simply do not cut it when it's 90° out at night

00:27:18

Speaker 1: allowed. A C. Unit is certainly not ideal, but it's all that I have to keep cool.

00:27:23

Speaker 1: I don't make very much money being in graduate school and I'm currently paying off college loans. So the thought of purchasing a several $100 standing A. C. Unit that might be quieter makes my stomach drop

00:27:36

Speaker 1: with regards to the footsteps. This came to me as a surprise. I have a no shoes policy in my apartment and generally wear my slippers around.

00:27:44

Speaker 1: I don't throw parties or do any sort of jumping around either. I am generally asleep by 10 p.m. so I'm not up and walking around at odd hours of the night.

00:27:54

Speaker 1: I'm on campus all day long. In fact, I'm only in the apartment in the mornings and at night the apartment is all wood flooring and I do have to rugs, but the floor creaks whether there is a rug there or not.

00:28:09

Speaker 1: I'm really not sure what I could do to combat the sound of footsteps. I briefly thought about buying rug runners to try to fill in the gaps that my other rugs don't reach. But again, it just seems like an extra cost to satisfy my neighbor.

00:28:21

Speaker 1: Now, every time I walk in my apartment or turn on the A. C. Unit, I feel terrible guilt. I don't want to disturb my neighbor, but I feel as though her request does not allow me to live freely in my own apartment.

00:28:33

Speaker 1: I want to be the best neighbor I possibly can be while not feeling a nuisance annoying just for living there.

00:28:41

Speaker 1: I am having a really hard time determining whether or not her request is justified and if I need to change my living arrangements to be a good neighbor of her standards or if I'm already adequate,

00:28:53

Speaker 1: thank you so much in advance for any advice you may have tiptoeing tina, tiptoeing tina, thank you for the question and thank you for all of the detail because I think that as that detail unfolds in front of us. I don't know about you lazybones, but I certainly can so sympathize with the I did

00:29:12

Speaker 1: the passage of time here. You first get the note and oh no, what can I do? I need to make this better. And then

00:29:19

Speaker 1: you sort of process and understand more and more about the ask and think more about what you can do. Your reaction to. It changes a little bit. The note still reads very nicely, but your ability or willingness to respond in some really positive way starts to

00:29:35

Speaker 1: be less clear or less possible. I think this is not an uncommon situation and you start to have genuine questions about where the lines are between being a good neighbor and having the freedom to live your life the way you need to live it.

00:29:50

Speaker 1: I have a number of ideas about ways that we might proceed here. But before I dominate the mic

00:29:57

Speaker 1: thoughts, lizzie post. Oh my goodness, I have, I have so many thoughts. I'm worried I'm going to snag some of yours if I go into my own list. But I do think that

00:30:07

Speaker 1: because you've received the note and I know that a note already went back right away. But I'm very curious about this now in between time, right? Because the,

00:30:18

Speaker 1: the subject's been broached, but we haven't bought any rugs. We, we aren't in a position to be able to remove our shoes further than we already have when we walk around the apartment or cancel the dance parties or Yeah, there's no doubt exactly. There's no dance parties, there's no exercise routine or trump being played and we haven't been able to replace the A. C. Unit. I'm wondering if another note is going to come sometime soon or conversation or if this was just a gentle reminder of, hey, I'm below anything you can do is helpful. What I'm getting at dan is, are we going to need to explain what we're already doing to this neighbor or will the situation just kind of

00:31:00

Speaker 1: die here, which I could also see happening after one exchange of

00:31:05

Speaker 1: please recognize I live below you. Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. Of course I've recognized that you lived below me. You know, if that's all it is, that might be all that needs to happen. Let me interrupt because I want, I want to ask you, knowing me as well as you know me, which direction do you think I would want this to go and would be most likely to take it? I think you would love to have it end here. Just did you know, just the simple

00:31:29

Speaker 1: uh note back saying so sorry, try to do better in the future and then hopefully they never say anything again and hopefully you never have to address it again. What I'm curious about the cousin is how long it would take for you to stop wondering in your head whether the next note or the next knock on the door to please quiet down was coming. You know,

00:31:50

Speaker 1: for me personally it would be very quick and but it was also the thing in this question that I noticed that

00:31:58

Speaker 1: um tiptoeing tina talks about that feeling of guilt that follows her through the front door every time she comes home.

00:32:07

Speaker 1: And

00:32:08

Speaker 1: the advice part of my answer as I was thinking about what would be useful here. One thought would be to address that guilt internally, to to say to yourself the way I'm living here, what I'm doing here is very reasonable in the context of the neighbors that I'm living with, The lifestyle that I live, the way I treat the apartment, the way I behave in the apartment

00:32:28

Speaker 1: is all pretty coherent. It all makes sense and there might be a little disruption on someone else, but it's well within the range of normal activities that anybody who rented an apartment here would expect to be able to do.

00:32:42

Speaker 1: So I'm really not gonna worry about it that much because that worry isn't useful for me, the guilt isn't helpful. And for me, when I think about the functionality of it, it's relatively easy for me to let it go.

00:32:55

Speaker 1: If that wasn't the case, I would then want to proceed the course number two, I would want to re engage the discussion because I would want to figure out a way to let go of that guilt and

00:33:07

Speaker 1: that's not my comfort zone entering czar unknown back and forth with strangers or people I don't know that well,

00:33:15

Speaker 1: but

00:33:16

Speaker 1: I think that it's also worth it if that brings you peace of mind in your own home.

00:33:21

Speaker 1: And I was curious, you had a couple of suggestions in your scripts about ways that you might pick up that conversation and I thought some of them were really good dan what I like about the fact that we've already had the apology go back

00:33:33

Speaker 1: and I think I would wait a little while before re addressing it because one of the things that waiting a little while and a little while for me, I'm imagining,

00:33:44

Speaker 1: I'm imagining like 2-3 weeks. But knowing me it would turn into a month or a little bit longer

00:33:50

Speaker 1: before I went downstairs and asked any questions about how it was going is that it gives the downstairs neighbor time to also adjust to having you upstairs and to get used to the little noises and little changes from not having someone up there or from maybe having someone up there who did have a quieter, a C unit and

00:34:09

Speaker 1: completely carpeted flooring. Like, you know, I have no idea what the previous tenant if there was one was like, but I like the idea that it does just take a little bit of time. I know when I used to have roommates, it would take me like a month or two to adjust to how things sounded and I would be really annoyed. The first,

00:34:26

Speaker 1: well the first week I'm usually okay with everything, but the second week to like first month, I'm very annoyed with all the things that have now happened in my world that weren't happening before. But then by months two and three, I'm really used to them. So however long you think is a good amount of time to wait. If you're willing to broach the subject again. I would

00:34:46

Speaker 1: either leave a little note inviting your neighbor up for tea one afternoon or inviting your neighbor to talk or if you happen to catch your neighbor in the hallway one day

00:34:55

Speaker 1: I might just say, hey, I just wanted to double check and see if it was any quieter, if things would be better. I know I can't change how loud the ac unit is,

00:35:04

Speaker 1: but I just wanted to check in after you're, you're very kind note and that might

00:35:09

Speaker 1: prompt things you don't want to hear. I'm going to be really honest about that, but it would at least prompt a conversation where maybe if they say boy, you know, it really hasn't changed at all. You might say, well these are the only two other areas I can identify to make a difference and right now I'm not in a financial position to do them.

00:35:27

Speaker 1: And I think that that would also be a fine conversation sometimes knowing why something can't be quieter

00:35:33

Speaker 1: helps you to just accept it for how it is. So if you want to broach the subject, I would as I said, give it a couple of weeks, give a month maybe and then re address it when you get a very convenient moment to do. So I love the idea of a check in

00:35:47

Speaker 1: and having it be light enough that you can connect a face and a name and identity of voice

00:35:55

Speaker 1: to the back and forth notes. I know that it's a lot easier to give someone else the credit of good intentions or even just think of them as a person and not as that annoyance upstairs as you get to know him a little bit better.

00:36:10

Speaker 1: There are some definite advantages to building those relationships with neighbors even through moments of awkwardness. And I think the quality of that note, hearing that it was well written and well delivered gives me hope that this is a neighbor relationship. That could be a good one, that it's not one where you're likely to run into a lot of

00:36:30

Speaker 1: stressful conflict.

00:36:32

Speaker 1: Dano is also reminded of another piece of advice that we give to hosts when they're going to host their first house guests often in a new home and we say stay in the guest room for a night because it will show you all the flaws, all the little things you wouldn't notice because you're usually sleep in your regular bed in the master bedroom or whatever.

00:36:50

Speaker 1: And I feel like while you wouldn't do a trade of apartments for all night. I think that asking the neighbor if you don't mind having them go walk across your floor while you listen from below so you can get a sense for what it sounds like. I mean

00:37:05

Speaker 1: you might decide boy, I would feel so annoyed if I lived here and that's what regular quiet slippers feet sounded like.

00:37:12

Speaker 1: I am going to make an effort to tiptoe or really save up for that rug because I understand that it would make such a difference. I feel like getting that that sense of perspective from both directions is probably never a bad thing. And like I said, it might just be inviting the person up for tea or

00:37:30

Speaker 1: or establishing that relationship so that you get the space. It might be directly saying would you want to test it out so I can hear what you're experiencing.

00:37:37

Speaker 1: Never hurts to try. A lot of people probably won't go this direction, but it's it's a suggestion,

00:37:43

Speaker 1: I'll confess. I was so curious what I saw that note in your show script. I was hoping that you would give the advice on air. And

00:37:51

Speaker 1: I wanted to know, I was saying to myself, I wonder what it does sound like. I wonder what those footfalls do sound like on that ceiling and

00:38:00

Speaker 1: there's really no way to know unless you experience it yourself. And I recognize that you potentially open that can of worms by getting more involved in that conversation, particularly there's not much you can do about it, but if this person is as pleasant as there no presented them as being,

00:38:18

Speaker 1: then it might also be a way to really find some accord and find some really subtle solutions that

00:38:24

Speaker 1: might not occur to you unless you were working together as a team tiptoeing tina, no matter how you decide to proceed with your neighbor. We truly hope that you feel comfortable in your home.

00:38:36

Speaker 1: Do you know some things you can do to help make your room a quiet place for work.

00:38:47

Speaker 1: Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can leave a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463. You can also reach us on social media on twitter. We are at Emily post install on instagram, we are at Emily Post institute

00:39:07

Speaker 1: and on facebook we are awesome etiquette.

00:39:09

Speaker 2: Just remember use the hashtag awesome

00:39:11

Speaker 1: etiquette with your post

00:39:12

Speaker 2: so that we know you want your

00:39:13

Speaker 1: question on the show.

00:39:17

Speaker 1: If you're enjoying awesome etiquette, please consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette. You'll get an ads free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content plus you'll feel great knowing that you helped keep awesome etiquette on the air

00:39:35

Speaker 1: and to those of you who are already sustaining members. Thank you so much for your support.

00:39:40

Speaker 1: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer in the topics we cover and today we have feedback from Brittany hi lizzie and dan. When my husband and I got married, we put a note on the registry page of our wedding website that we were both keeping our names the same.

00:39:58

Speaker 1: We figured that it would be the most likely place. People would wonder about names when personalizing gifts are writing cards.

00:40:05

Speaker 1: We did get a few cars addressed to husband's name and Britney husband's last name but thankfully at least know monogrammed or custom gifts with his name.

00:40:15

Speaker 1: Just wanted to share this idea for a place This information could live on wedding websites and absolutely agree that it should be standard

00:40:23

Speaker 1: Brittany lamb

00:40:25

Speaker 1: Britney. Thank you for the increased specificity. That is a great place to be sure to have that information for people.

00:40:31

Speaker 1: Our next piece of feedback begins. Dear lizzie and Daniel. Oh my, I've just been so behind on listening to the podcast that I only yesterday listen to episode 3 44 dinner party download reprise wherein you kindly answered my question about how to address my very nosy neighbor.

00:40:49

Speaker 1: I was so excited to hear by letter being read that it gave my heart a little flutter and the answer was well, just perfect. I wouldn't have expected anything less. I'm deeply grateful to both of you for your advice. Thank you so much for providing thoughtful and thorough answers. You provided me with many options and elegant solutions to handle my problem.

00:41:09

Speaker 1: I regret that I didn't go searching to see if my questions were selected because I would have had an arsenal of advice specific to my concerns.

00:41:17

Speaker 1: I haven't fully addressed the issue, but I have used what I learned from your podcast. I'm certain to be friendly but do not divulge personal details about anything in my life and I now take a step outside when she unexpectedly shows up, I make sure to smile and wave if I see her in passing and I'll chat,

00:41:36

Speaker 1: but I don't engage in long drawn out conversations.

00:41:39

Speaker 1: I tend to say that I've got something to do inside and say goodbye. I've also had to remind her to stop texting me before nine a.m. Or after eight p.m. So in essence, I've slowly distanced myself from her and I feel better,

00:41:52

Speaker 1: but I cannot shake the feeling of being observed.

00:41:55

Speaker 1: I will take note of the advice on how to handle any comments on being watched and use when you. I feel statements.

00:42:01

Speaker 1: I also will be specific about what I want to talk about and set boundary expectations and if and when I do have a conversation, I will be certain to make my good intentions explicit about how much we love living there and having a good relationship with my neighbors whenever possible.

00:42:18

Speaker 1: Again, thank you so so very much with kindest regards Kathleen

00:42:23

Speaker 1: ps unbeknownst to my husband, I'm planning an etiquette pilgrimage to Vermont as soon as this blasted viruses under control. I hope they don't listen together and we just blew her car. I hadn't even thought of that and I'm also just laughing because I love blasted virus. I'm going to start using that. I had my first moment of anger that this blasted virus and I share that.

00:42:47

Speaker 1: Very excited about your etiquette pilgrimage to Vermont. Do keep us posted. Do keep us posted

00:42:54

Speaker 1: Kathleen, thank you so much for your feedback on the question about your nosy neighbor and please keep us posted on the etiquette pilgrimage to Vermont

00:43:04

Speaker 1: and thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please keep them coming. You can send your feedback or update to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com or leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463.

00:43:19

Speaker 1: It's time for our post script segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette. And today, even though this episode airs on labor Day instead of talking about when to wear white, we're going to dive into an interview that we have been so incredibly excited about. It is titled

00:43:39

Speaker 1: etiquette in space.

00:43:44

Speaker 1: Mhm

00:43:45

Speaker 1: Yes. All you old muppet fans you heard that correctly. I am thrilled to be bringing you an interview that I have done recently with newly minted etiquette author Dr Donald James and

00:43:58

Speaker 1: Dr James is a Nasa scientist with a deep appreciation for an understanding of etiquette. He recently wrote a book that has been thinking about for many years inspired by his mother

00:44:09

Speaker 1: called manners will take you where brains and money won't and lizzie, I can't wait for you and our audience to hear this and to meet Dr Donald James

00:44:18

Speaker 2: Donald

00:44:20

Speaker 1: James, Welcome to awesome etiquette. It is

00:44:24

Speaker 1: an honor and a privilege to have you here today.

00:44:27

Speaker 1: I am going to ask you to do something that I love to ask guests to do, which is I could read your bio but I think that it is so much more interesting if you tell us a little bit about yourself and

00:44:39

Speaker 1: the origins of the book that we're going to be talking about today, manners will take you where brains and money won't, I think it is a real accomplishment. But before we get into it, I'd like to hear just a little bit from you about yourself and where this book came

00:44:52

Speaker 2: from. Well thank you Daniel and you're welcome. I'm truly honored to speak with you today about you know an important subject and

00:45:01

Speaker 2: um I just I really do appreciate it. Um I spent all my career at the space agency Nasa 35 years and when I finished my career I started thinking about many of the questions that students used to ask me. I work in education. And so

00:45:21

Speaker 2: the book really comes out of

00:45:23

Speaker 2: you know those questions where they would ask, you know, how did you make it in Nasa and you know, what does it take and how do you, you know, get figure out the right schools to go to and things of that nature. So um

00:45:37

Speaker 2: in a nutshell, that's how I got from the space agency to writing the book on manners. But um I grew up in sacramento California with my brother Dennis who was my co author

00:45:49

Speaker 2: and reared by my mother, Muriel James, She uh was single, my parents had divorced um later she imported my grandmother to help with the parenting at her house

00:46:00

Speaker 2: and they were, they were from Georgia. And so they grew up with um a lot of southern etiquette and conventions and so that um through osmosis, I learned a lot from them and I'm upon reflection, I realized just how important that was to my life and career. So I'm now retired and then

00:46:20

Speaker 2: enjoying speaking about the book and doing some other projects from my home in Pleasant in California.

00:46:27

Speaker 1: Well, let's talk a little bit about the book. And

00:46:30

Speaker 1: even more broadly, let's talk a little bit about the topic of etiquette. It is a

00:46:35

Speaker 1: a very broad and oftentimes hard to pin down idea that means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. It's something that we talk about on this show all the time lizzie post. And I spend a lot of time thinking about

00:46:49

Speaker 1: etiquette, what it is and how it's composed of so many things, how it can be about specific actions we can we take and it can also be about how those actions,

00:46:59

Speaker 1: tell people about the decisions that we make inside are the values that we hold.

00:47:04

Speaker 1: It can seem very superficial and at the same time it can be incredibly

00:47:09

Speaker 1: deep and affecting.

00:47:11

Speaker 1: I'm curious how you approach this topic and

00:47:16

Speaker 1: um what you discovered about it as you, as you tackled writing a book on this oftentimes elusive topic.

00:47:24

Speaker 2: First of all I, you know, to me the work that you and your cousin do and of course coming from Emily post yourself for me that's

00:47:33

Speaker 2: you know, like the grew of all of this and I've been aware of her and her work for quite some time, it never had

00:47:39

Speaker 2: fully studied it. So although I was quite nervous to reach out because I didn't know, you know if you guys would be amenable to you know, some strange guy, nasa guy out in California wanting to connect on this, but

00:47:53

Speaker 2: I'm very very grateful for that. And

00:47:56

Speaker 2: you know, when I was

00:47:58

Speaker 2: thinking about our respective work, one way that I like to characterize it and I don't know how well I did it, I'll leave it up to the readers to judge is

00:48:10

Speaker 2: I was to use an analogy in the computer world. I was hoping to write a book about how we develop what they call the computer world. Our firmware which as you know, the firmware is the fundamental programming

00:48:28

Speaker 2: that makes, you know mac, a mac or a pc a pc.

00:48:32

Speaker 2: And it doesn't really change. It's just, it accepts the software which does change and that dictates how you deal with the computer. You know, I update my applications, I get a new applications with all of that software. Well the firmware is is what's really foundational

00:48:50

Speaker 2: and

00:48:52

Speaker 2: I was hoping to address that and what I wrote. But also I recognize that you know, as times change and as you guys have written about and spoken about,

00:49:03

Speaker 2: you know our ways of interacting evolve, you know, in the old days, you know, you know the the men that would stand up if a woman came in the room but now it's appropriate, you know, out of respect for men and women to do it as a form of equity and there's other things like that. And so I knew that

00:49:22

Speaker 2: I didn't have expertise and all of that, which is where you guys come in because you can, if somebody wants to know,

00:49:29

Speaker 2: you know anything about how the properly to something in the circumstance, they can certainly go to the Emily Post institute and learn that.

00:49:36

Speaker 2: Whereas I was trying to approach this from a core development takes some skill. It's it's like becoming a mathematician or becoming a you know a polyglot or something like that. That this is a way of being in the world your manner that

00:49:56

Speaker 2: people just

00:49:58

Speaker 2: can understand and get but often don't speak to the specific details about what it is about a person that captures them, what is it that resonates with them

00:50:11

Speaker 2: or on the other end, what is it that repels them or what is it that makes them feel uncomfortable. They may not even be able to put their finger on it.

00:50:19

Speaker 2: So I wanted to approach it that way at the same time

00:50:24

Speaker 2: because of much of what informed my writing came from my work experience at Nasa. I use a lot of Nasa stories to illustrate my points um as well as things that I learned from my mother. And so to that extent, um like I said, I'll leave it to the readers to decide if

00:50:45

Speaker 2: you know, it really lands with respect to addressing the core manners principles. Um and then I offer examples to get into details about you know, what it could look like, you know when your manners work and like when your manners don't work. Um So

00:51:04

Speaker 2: I've met people I know you've met people where after,

00:51:08

Speaker 2: you know a few minutes when you've established a connection in a relationship and there's a report, you go away feeling like, wow, there's just something about that person I really like and I just appreciate and you can

00:51:21

Speaker 2: you can feel like you can be with them and you want to learn from them. And then there's other people that you probably wouldn't call back or you wouldn't necessarily spend some time with.

00:51:30

Speaker 2: So that's what I'm trying to to address in this book is how do we cultivate our manners in such a way where were attractive to people, people respect, you know who we are as individual that we are concerned about others. Uh and and and even

00:51:52

Speaker 2: not people like whether it could be animals on the planet. I think you could have great manners with respect to our planet. For example, in addition to people. So, so that's what I was hoping to accomplish

00:52:03

Speaker 2: upon reflection. You know, maybe I might have emphasised some other things and looking back to try to explain that better. But you know, once you publish a book, it kind of takes a life of its own and you learn things from it yourself. Right?

00:52:18

Speaker 2: Also,

00:52:18

Speaker 1: writing a

00:52:19

Speaker 2: book is

00:52:21

Speaker 1: a particular leap of faith in the you put those words down and they become a record of that moment that thought that particular point in time and

00:52:32

Speaker 1: in some ways they're beautiful for that and in other ways it can be so frustrating because that's it

00:52:39

Speaker 2: is what it is.

00:52:41

Speaker 1: Um I'm really curious about this book. I thought that you did an incredibly good job of tying together a number of different themes and also offering some really practical, actionable advice.

00:52:54

Speaker 1: And I'm hoping that you can talk a little bit about some of the different skills that you brought to bear on on this topic. And I'm particularly curious about how

00:53:05

Speaker 1: a career at Nasa influenced your approach to a topic that I think a lot of people would think of as as really being in the realm of the social sciences.

00:53:17

Speaker 2: Yeah, that's I like the way you characterize that obviously having worked with the space agency, I was steeped in the scientific and engineering world. That was, you know, my experience, my own academic degrees were in the social sciences so that we're in the so called stem fields directly. But you know, I I learned to think the way

00:53:39

Speaker 2: scientists think, which is often, you know, curiosity and so if you just take curiosity which is trying to understand things, I've taken that to human interaction and group interactions. Oftentimes I'm with a group of people and I'm just intensely curious about

00:53:59

Speaker 2: the dynamics of how conversations evolved. And I asked myself, what is it that people are yearning for and hungering for in this conversation. This if somebody want power, does somebody want to be a firm, does somebody need to be heard?

00:54:18

Speaker 2: Somebody need to just listen and capture what other people are saying. So, I've become a student of that and and whether it's one on one or whether it's in groups and so, you know, a scientist curiosity is often not about trying to get to a predetermined conclusion that they think is true,

00:54:39

Speaker 2: but to be remained open to a possibility that they hadn't seen before. And so I think I've been able to leverage both my training with Nasa as well as, you know, things I learned from my mom and just,

00:54:53

Speaker 2: you know, pretend, you know, not pretending that I know everything because I certainly don't and just see as we say in Nasa, where does the data lied to me? You know, and just and it's a constant evolution of that. So

00:55:05

Speaker 2: that's a great characterisation of both those things. And so thank you for that

00:55:11

Speaker 1: now. While the end process of writing a book is a particular concrete product, the process of writing a book takes time. And I'm really curious if there were things that you discovered during that or more particularly or specifically, were there things that surprised you along the way?

00:55:32

Speaker 2: Yeah, that I think the first thing that was a surprise is that how it can take a bit of a life on its own and that, you know, where I thought I was going, Sometimes I changed and morphed and

00:55:46

Speaker 2: I also had a lot of help, I have a lot of beta reviewers and you know, as you know from I think

00:55:52

Speaker 2: Chapter 10 About team, I'm a big believer in having a group of people, you know, support the work that I'm doing. And so some of their insights and things helped.

00:56:03

Speaker 2: I was surprised that when I first started laying this out, I had 13 chapters and even though I don't feel at all superstitious, I felt like I want an even number of chapters. So I talked to my editor and we, we reconfigured some earlier chapters. Split, split the pink suits and I think in two and

00:56:23

Speaker 2: And I added the 14th chapter because I just wanted to have 14, I mean that's literally how I got the 14 chapters. The only other thing that surprised me is that

00:56:33

Speaker 2: because I I you know, I was not a writer, I didn't write any books before and I learned a little bit about what I needed to do, but I didn't do a concept map of the structure of the book initially to talk about, okay, what stories am I going to tell, whether we're going to go and all of this stuff? And so sometimes I'd get into the book

00:56:54

Speaker 2: and I'm writing about a strong like,

00:56:55

Speaker 2: I think I think I talked about this before, I couldn't remember what I had to go back and read some earlier stuff. And then

00:57:03

Speaker 2: the funny thing is when I was reviewing the book at the end, I was referencing a story that I told and I'm

00:57:11

Speaker 1: like, God, I don't

00:57:12

Speaker 2: remember what chapter I put in the Farmer Brown story in. So I went back to look for Farmer Brown and I realized I had taken it out, but I forgot to take out the references to it.

00:57:23

Speaker 2: So I called my editor, I said, oh no, I got to clean this up. And so,

00:57:27

Speaker 2: so I learned about just, you know, how to structure things and you know, so I kind of laugh at myself about that because, you know, I had to make sure I didn't, you know, write something and the reader like, what is he talking about? Never heard who's Farmer Brown, right,

00:57:43

Speaker 1: I certainly know Lizzie post is sitting somewhere laughing and appreciating that thought she spent so much time working on the cross references in the 20th edition of etiquette. And

00:57:57

Speaker 1: every time we did any sort of reorganizing of our content, there was always that looming question. Is there anywhere in the book that we referenced this specifically? And it's now no longer pointing at the correct

00:58:10

Speaker 2: section?

00:58:12

Speaker 2: Well, I I feel her living in fear because I went through that. So now lesson learnt. If I ever do something else, I'll be more careful about that.

00:58:22

Speaker 1: So, throughout this book, you introduce some larger themes and often times you do it through a particular story or experience or a manner that you're talking about. But then you'll you'll work out into a bigger picture concept. I think of them as things that you learned as

00:58:39

Speaker 1: being fundamentally important from your mother or really important life skills in some way.

00:58:45

Speaker 1: And one of those you amusingly named pink suits. And I'm curious if you could tell us a little bit about pink suits.

00:58:53

Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you. Um, pink suit is a metaphor and it's meant to suggest that you

00:59:05

Speaker 2: try something on that

00:59:07

Speaker 1: you probably

00:59:07

Speaker 2: wouldn't try on. So I talk about, you know how I don't own a pink suit and nor do I think about trying it on. But if you can imagine someone coming up to you and say daniel, I have this pink suit. It looks really good. I want you to try it on and you think your first reaction is uh that's not exactly the kind of person that I am and I don't know that I want to wear a pink suit, let alone take it out and go to a formal event.

00:59:33

Speaker 2: So if you imagine why you pause at the invitation to wear a pink suit,

00:59:40

Speaker 2: then metaphorically what I'm writing about is if somebody was to suggest something to you that's a little bit outside of your comfort zone, something that you wouldn't do, then the invitation is to try it on knowing that

01:00:00

Speaker 2: if you don't like it,

01:00:01

Speaker 2: you can take it off and give it away. I'll give you an example that I learned in sports that

01:00:09

Speaker 2: I learned that there are some professional athletes and football players

01:00:15

Speaker 2: that found out that taking up

01:00:18

Speaker 2: ballet

01:00:19

Speaker 2: was great for their physical development and learning how to stay on their feet in the mayhem of football. Now, if you were to go to high school football team and said, the coach says,

01:00:33

Speaker 2: I want you guys to take mrs jones ballet class, you can imagine the reaction that you might get from a lot of these players like, what are you talking about? Because

01:00:43

Speaker 2: it's like in the karate kid, when Mr Miyagi told the young charge to paint the fence and the shine the floor. He didn't understand why are you having me paint the fence and shine floor and then you find out in the movie that what he's really teaching them is certain

01:01:01

Speaker 2: I hand movements and development that will help him in his karate. So a pink suit is a metaphor and it's it's sometimes I'll, I have actually had people say to me that all you need to try on this pink suit and I realized instantly what they're saying is that they can sense that I'm resisting some feedback there. I'm resisting some advice or some coaching

01:01:25

Speaker 2: and because they know the book, they'll say this is a pink suit thing and so then

01:01:29

Speaker 2: I will shift and really absorb what it is that I'm hearing and perhaps do what it is that they're suggesting because as uh, you know, the coach or somebody who knows something, they, you know, they're inviting me to get a little uncomfortable because I can grow. Um and lastly what I will say is that if I reflect on my life and

01:01:54

Speaker 2: when and where it is that I felt that I grew the most, I grew the most after accepting the pink suit in my life because it was refreshing and new and it was, it was something that I didn't really expect. So

01:02:12

Speaker 2: that's what pink suits are all about now. I want to acknowledge that you know, a lot of people wear pink suits is not a bad thing. It's not so weird. It's just, it's just a metaphor.

01:02:24

Speaker 1: Alright, so I have to tell you that I think one of the reasons this particular metaphor resonated so much with me is that I had my own

01:02:31

Speaker 1: pink suit experience. That was not a metaphor.

01:02:34

Speaker 1: Back when I was in my freshman year of high school, I was helping out at a church rummage sale and we were sorting clothes that have been donated. This was me and some friends from the youth group. And

01:02:46

Speaker 1: there were these um almost polyester leisure suits that had probably been donated by a little old lady in our community. And we were

01:02:55

Speaker 1: playing around with all the different things that we were sorting and trying them on like costumes. And these particular suits were just so fantastic. They had giant peaked lapels and they were in bright colors.

01:03:07

Speaker 1: I didn't choose pink, but I chose a red orange version with big bell bottoms and wore it to school the next day as a freshman

01:03:16

Speaker 1: and

01:03:17

Speaker 1: it completely changed people's views of me in the church community and school and

01:03:25

Speaker 1: I had so much fun doing it. But it was definitely way outside of my usual expectations for myself or the expectations that other people had of me and

01:03:37

Speaker 1: I learned a lot that day.

01:03:39

Speaker 2: That's wild. That's wild. Well it can be very useful. I remember in high school when we were learning about the challenges of people with disabilities.

01:03:52

Speaker 2: The assignment was that we all had to take on a disability for the day. So some of us had to be blindfolded the whole day. Others had to be confined to a wheelchair, which is what I chose

01:04:03

Speaker 2: and I was

01:04:05

Speaker 2: astonished

01:04:06

Speaker 2: at seeing the world from the vantage point of being in a wheelchair. This was even before the A. D. A. The americans with disabilities act

01:04:16

Speaker 2: and not being able to navigate getting into the bathroom, not being able to get through doors. And so it really that experience which I would characterize his pink suit because you know it's something unusual and different. Was the uh

01:04:32

Speaker 2: a real lesson to me in the world of those who are differently abled. And so

01:04:38

Speaker 2: that would be an example of how it played out. Your example is wonderful because it tells me that you had the courage to do it. And you also probably learned that even though your peers might laugh and tease and all that.

01:04:53

Speaker 2: You know, maybe you just didn't take it personally or maybe you did take it really personally and you were traumatized by that and had to go to therapy. I don't really know but it's an opportunity to learn something about yourself. Right?

01:05:04

Speaker 1: I learned a lot interviewing Donald James. In fact our interview went on for another half an hour and rather than encourage people to go to Patreon to hear it. I decided that it was just too interesting not to save for a second postscript.

01:05:19

Speaker 1: So I'm inviting everyone who's listening to join us next week to hear the second half of this interview. There are some topics that Donald and I discussed that you will not want to miss.

01:05:28

Speaker 1: We'll see you.

01:05:29

Speaker 2: Then

01:05:32

Speaker 2: we

01:05:34

Speaker 1: like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing and that can come in so many forms. Today we have a salute from Emma to her friend Jackie,

01:05:45

Speaker 1: hi dan and lindsey and the awesome etiquette team. I have a very special salute for my friend Jackie. She recently got engaged over the christmas holiday and I was thrilled for her. She reached out to me at the end of january and asked me if I would be a bridesmaid. She preference This was asking also if I was financially able to be a bridesmaid as she know that I was furloughed last year. She just did his the pandemic.

01:06:09

Speaker 1: I thought it was very sweet and kind that she prefaced it by saying that if you're financially able I would love for you to have a part of my wedding.

01:06:18

Speaker 1: It was so sweet after I took some time to think about it. I of course accepted because I was able to work it out and make sure I was there for my friends not long after I accepted. He called me to thank me for joining her vital party and to also let me know that if I had to drop out at any time due to any covid restrictions or anything like that because we are in separate cities that she would completely understand. It would not hold it against me. And I just thought it was so sweet and compassionate of her to understand that even though it is her special day, that there was a lot of trying times for everybody. So for that, I just want to say thanks Jackie.

01:06:52

Speaker 1: Oh, that is such a sweet salute between friends and it's such an important moment. And especially at this particular time when we're still dealing with this pandemic. It's, it's awesome to hear about people working those flexibilities into their exchanges.

01:07:09

Speaker 1: Emma, thank you so much for this salute

01:07:12

Speaker 1: And Dan. I'm gonna put in a kind of mini salute to you and the rest of our show crew because this show marked 365 episodes and you know that I'm a geek with numbers and I absolutely love the fact that after today someone could listen every single day

01:07:31

Speaker 1: For an entire year and have a fresh episode of Awesome etiquette. If they hadn't heard the show before as opposed to you badly. Thank you so much and thank you all for listening and being here for 365 episodes. We appreciate you so much and thank you to everyone who sent us something and everyone who supports us on patreon, please connect with us and share this show with friends, family and co workers. However you like to share podcasts.

01:08:00

Speaker 1: You can send us your next question feedback or salute by email. The awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a message or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463 on twitter. We are at Emily post inst on instagram, we are at Emily Post Institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette and the Emily Post Institute.

01:08:22

Speaker 1: Please consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette. You can also subscribe to the ads version of our show on Spotify or your favorite podcast app and please consider leaving us a review.

01:08:36

Speaker 1: It helps our show ranking, which helps more people find awesome etiquette. Our show is edited by chris Albertine. An assistant produced by Brigitte Dowd. Thanks christmas and Bridget,

01:08:55

Speaker 1: but