Episode 366 -Ticket to a Shower

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Speaker 1: maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social, could you see that's old fashioned,

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Speaker 1: Watch how busy post and then post to act as host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person. Real friendliness.

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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to awesome etiquette where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty on today. Shall we take your questions on the use of doctor as a title and formal invitations, appropriate neighborhood gossip coded and weddings and kids and a jack and Jill you purchased tickets to for awesome etiquette sustaining members. Our question of the week is about sharing emergencies with your family plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a post script. That's a continuation of our interview with etiquette author Donald James all that's coming up

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Speaker 1: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute. I'm lizzie post and I'm damn post sending because I got to tell you, I feel like such a dork. I'm really excited.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I know all seasons. I was gonna say football season is starting this. Yeah, it's just like a hint of normal. I just feel like there's a routine, a fantasy football routine that's been part of my life for almost 20 years now and

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Speaker 1: to have some version of that normalcy happening again. Just, it feels like a lifeline to me at the moment. I'm really enjoying it. I feel you on that. I'm actually going to go to the to the patriots Saints game on the 26 so I'm very excited. I know like talk about normalcy crowd, stadium,

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Speaker 1: football live. I can't wait. I know Caravanning.

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Speaker 1: I know it's, I'm really looking forward. I'm pretty, I'm pretty certain it was mentioned that we have like,

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Speaker 1: I mean they're not like on the field tickets, but it's something like a front row type situation. So I'm very excited. First trip to Gillette stadium first. Yes, I believe so. I don't think the other team myself play was in Gillette. So yeah, I think so. But that will be fun. Still jealous. You had a bit of a return to normal this last weekend

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Speaker 1: I want to share. Yeah, I do because it's also in some ways can act as a salute. Um, I got to go to a labor Day weekend getaway at my like one of my favorite places in the world. Martha's vineyard,

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Speaker 1: family friends that I grew up with down there. Um their youngest daughter, I was same age as their middle son,

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Speaker 1: but their youngest daughter invited me and a bunch of her other friends to come down and we stayed at both her parents house who lived down there all year round. So the parents were there and I'm very close with them. So it was like extra bonus to get to see them and then her sister's house was available and so half the crew stayed at the sister's house and half the crew stayed here with the parents and

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Speaker 1: it was incredible. None of us had met each other before. We were all friends with Margo, that was our hostess and I feel like it was a love fest, like everybody fell in love with everybody, like we were all telling Margo how much we loved all the other people on the trip

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Speaker 1: and how everyone was so incredible and that this was like the Best friends weekend getaway, anyone had been on,

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Speaker 1: we did dan, we did so many things you're gonna love, we went to a big, big dinner out in town the first night, which was really fun dress up dinner. I did, I did, I did my hair and makeup and I wore some fancy pants

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Speaker 1: um and an address top and we, we all went out and we did actually, one of the things that was pretty cool about this was that

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Speaker 1: this wasn't just an adult's getaway. We had two kids, one of the gentlemen on the trip had two kids with us and they were

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Speaker 1: so fun and so well behaved. It was like, you wouldn't want to do this weekend again without them, you know what I mean? Which I think is pretty incredible when you think about adults usually want to have like an adult's weekend and having them, there was incredible, but they came out to the big fancy dinner

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Speaker 1: and then the next day we had a beach club day, so chappie beach club where they filmed a lot of jaws,

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Speaker 1: but we got to go to go to the beach club for the day and we built sandcastles and swim in the water and then we did a big low country boil that night and we put lobsters and potatoes and clams and sausages and um sorry, sonny shaking in the background,

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Speaker 1: what else was in there, said potato corn all into a big pot and let it cook away, and then we laid out newspaper down on the outdoor table, dumped the whole thing on the table, Everybody was just diving, eat whatever you want.

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Speaker 1: It was incredible, you know, that, that is like one of my favorite ways to eat, like all hands, all mess, like let's just, let's just enjoy it, lots of seafood, lots of seafood, it was so good.

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Speaker 1: Um oh my gosh, the lobster tails came out so like the, there were a couple, a couple clouds weren't quite cooked, but like the lobster tails were all outstanding. It was, it was just so delicious.

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Speaker 1: And then the next day we went out to my beach out at our farm on the vineyard and it was

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Speaker 1: glorious. We had this big, we, we went to a general store and bought like wiffle ball and bat and a football and Frisbees and a bunch of sandcastle making stuff, so there were more sand castles, there were multiple rounds of whiffle ball that we're all still talking about in our group chat right now.

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Speaker 1: It was just a blast, We all went swimming. It was even though it was like kind of a cloudy day at the beach, it was still just an epic beach day

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Speaker 1: and then we followed it up, I believe that night now I'm starting to get my days confused by tim, the father of the family of the household has a, you know, projector and an outdoor theater screen and so we called it Norton street all season theater and we watched jaws altogether and did kind of like a pizza and wings night

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Speaker 1: and then the next day a lot was monday and a lot of people were headed home, so those that stayed just kind of did like some mexican takeout for dinner and had like a chill evening, but it was,

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Speaker 1: it was such a perfect

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Speaker 1: weekend, it was like, it was such a perfect weekend because it was so many points of etiquette to be had. Every single person there offered to do things like help pay for the food. We had a Venmo moment where one person paid the bill at the restaurant and then I don't have Venmo, but other ever, like a lot of other people did, I know right, a lot of other people did, so you know, I made sure to get cash at the a t m the next morning and gave it to the person who paid everything and

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Speaker 1: um, a lot of people did, you know did their vencemos and wrote cheeky jokey things as to what they were enrolling people back for was in charge of the schedule. So the host guest here here, it's a great, great thing Margo, our hostess like ultimate hostess

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Speaker 1: was really in charge of the schedule but she was wonderfully flexible. There were a number of things that we propose that we didn't do. There was like a, their family is part of the yacht club and there's this sailing race where um I can't remember, I think the theme, if the theme is to dress your boat like a movie and their boat was pink. So we were thinking things like legally blonde, pretty in pink, you know all these different movies that we might be able to do, but we just ended up not going to that. So

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Speaker 1: there was like a flexibility around things,

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Speaker 1: but for the most part everyone would kind of hear an idea and cheer for it basically. It was like, oh low country boil, that sounds delicious for dinner, oh day out at Baha gonna, yeah, we'd all love a day out at the farm beach, you know,

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Speaker 1: and so it was really fun, it was flexible, it felt like there were always options and you never had to commit to anything. Like I mean just

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Speaker 1: talk about an a plus hostess and that's that's what I told my parents, I was like Man, Margo really brought together the most amazing guest list along with it, we, it was, it was such a good, I'm going to take care of you but let you do your own thing too.

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Speaker 1: And I've got to say her parents are just like that. I really think she learned it from watching her parents and just from this is who she is.

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Speaker 1: Her mom for instance, I was one of the people who stayed monday night and her mom knew that she was going out to dinner and I was still staying at her house.

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Speaker 1: So she had had made some offers to arrange things for me to do for dinner if I didn't want to just be on my own or if I didn't already have plans with the other couple of people who stayed monday night too.

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Speaker 1: And that was really wonderful. If you could just see left right and center

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Speaker 1: how easily these folks handle hosting and taking care of people and making them feel welcome. Everyone was offered rides to and from the airport or the ferry. I was blown away at the generosity of how can we help make your comings and goings for this trip so easy.

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Speaker 1: It was really, I mean I can't describe it other than like a plus hosting on all fronts and a plus guesting to like I said, people were offering to clean up, they were offering to pitch in, they were, you know tossing each other money whenever they could because they knew someone else had bought them something. It was going with the flow to, you know, when the whole group says let's go to the beach. If you know, if someone didn't want to, they could have easily said, well hang back, but instead everyone came,

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Speaker 1: it was just really, really an a plus weekend will definitely go down in my memory.

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Speaker 1: I definitely feel like your host gets an early in the show and it gets salute. Oh yes, yes. No Margo Putnam Delaney and her parents tim Delaney and Kate Putnam both or all three. Excuse me get just huge kudos as amazing, excellent hosts.

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Speaker 1: They always have been and it was great to be in a weekend where it really like it was just shining left, right and center. Well you came back like a kid who just went to summer camp and had the best time ever and has decided they never want to

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Speaker 1: not be there ever again. No, it's really true. I like one of the, one of the women on the trip Melin. She and I became like instant best buds. Like we just, she said, I took one look at you and was like, I'm gonna like this girl and I was like, oh my God, as soon as I got in the car was like, she's really cool awesome. You know, it was like everyone was saying things like that about each other and he really did come away feeling like you had like, you know, 10 new best friends.

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Speaker 1: Um, and I frankly I need that, I'm very alone as you know, up in, up in this corner of the world and even though I've got my family and stuff, the socializing with peers, people my age, it's a little bit harder. Things have still been really quiet on that front here in Vermont

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Speaker 1: and uh, as we were headed into fall and winter as you know, august hit and I was starting to feel down like, oh my gosh, the chance to socialize is ending soon

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Speaker 1: as we all hunker down in hibernate and this just made me feel like, nah, there's life and living out there, there's a big old world, it's gonna be just fine. Anyway, it was absolutely like I said a plus weekend and I couldn't be more grateful. I'm really hoping this crew all gets together again.

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you did decide to come back with the pose because

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Speaker 1: the work goes on at Emily Post. I do, I have to come away from vacation at some point, don't I?

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Speaker 1: I won't make too big a deal of it, but we do have some questions to get to, we do, let's do it, let's do it,

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Speaker 1: awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions. You can email them to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com leave a voicemail or text at 802858 kind that's 8028585463 or reach us on social media

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Speaker 1: on twitter. We are at Emily post inst on instagram we are at Emily Post institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette.

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Speaker 1: Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media posts so that we know you want your question on the show.

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Speaker 1: Our first question is about traditional invitations.

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Speaker 1: Hello doing outer and inner envelopes for my very formal encore wedding invitations hashtag Covid Bride.

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Speaker 1: The following guest outranks her husband for the outer envelope.

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Speaker 1: Dr Christina Suzanne New and mr Chandler David knew

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Speaker 1: is this correct?

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Speaker 1: Do you write out her full name even though she took her husband's name

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Speaker 1: for the inner envelope.

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Speaker 1: Dr new and mr new, is this correct? Or would it be dr and mr new. Thank you Cameron Core dan. You know, we love a good technical question. It always forces us to look into the books.

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Speaker 1: I feel like when I look at this and I see that outer envelope listed dr Christina. Suzanne New and mr Chandler David knew

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Speaker 1: that looks correct to me. If you're choosing to use middle names, the adjustment I personally would probably make to it would be to remove the middle names and have it be dr Christina new and mr Chandler new

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Speaker 1: but you do list her name first and you list her name in full in connection with her last name. Whether it is the same as her husband's or not.

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Speaker 1: And that's that's sort of been so far the tradition with doctors

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Speaker 1: when it comes to the inner envelope.

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Speaker 1: This is where I start to get a little bit more like I often think of this as a more casual space. For instance on my sister's formal invitations. The outer envelope read mrs Patricia, see Colby, my grandmother's name. Full name.

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Speaker 1: And then the inner envelope, red granny pat.

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Speaker 1: So it's often a place where you would get more familiar. One of the things that I think would be really helpful in this particular case is to just double check that Christina Suzanne New actually uses doctor as a social title. I think that's a that's a really nice courtesy to give to doctors is to ask them whether they want to use their title socially.

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Speaker 1: And that might also help you distinguish whether or not you would go a little more casual on that inner envelope or not.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious about the difference between dr new and Mr new and dr and Mr new.

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Speaker 1: My instinct would be to keep the titles

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Speaker 1: separate and to use them each with a last name. Not to combine them dr and mr new but what is your thought on that lizzie. I agree with you and I regret that I don't have a hard and fast rule or reason for it other than I think it's just more commonly done this way.

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Speaker 1: But I'm with you. I would rather see that inner envelope

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Speaker 1: be reflected. Either the same as the outer envelope. So dr Christina new and mr Chandler new or the inner envelope might read the new. Now this is where this last name example gets a little tough, the inner envelope might read the news, the N E W. S meaning this is the couple. Um if Children were invited the news family would be another way to do that

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Speaker 1: but I am with you I'd probably not go on the inner envelope either Doctor knew and mr new or dr and mr new.

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Speaker 1: So for you it's more about whether or not you even use titles than how you're going to order them or whether it's

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Speaker 1: title gets its own last name right? And I will say that typically when you've got a hetero couple and the woman is a doctor you tend to really try to separate her out and so the doing the doctor and mr new to me doesn't seem like the right, it doesn't instinctually feel like the right way to go

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Speaker 1: if you were going to do this version that's been suggested for the inner envelope of

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Speaker 1: only the last name and the title. I would lean towards the doctor knew and mr new but I personally wouldn't even do that. I would say you know Christina and Chandler or the news as we said before,

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Speaker 1: I would try to find some way to make it a little bit more familiar on the inner envelope. Makes sense to me so glad, so glad

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Speaker 1: Cameron, thank you so much for the question and congratulations on your wedding. We hope that even as a covid bride, it is an amazing smashing success everywhere you go. Your manners are with you

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Speaker 1: and they leave their mark.

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Speaker 1: They help you

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Speaker 2: feel sure of

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Speaker 1: yourself too and they make an impression on people on everyone you meet.

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Speaker 1: Our next question is intriguingly titled, good gossip, verse gossip,

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Speaker 1: dear lizzie and dan. I have a wonderful next door neighbor, Miss Eleanor.

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Speaker 1: She has unfortunately had some health problems in recent years. Her adult sons who live out of state regularly alert me if she has been hospitalist so that I can visit her

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Speaker 1: during one of her hospitalizations? Another neighbor caught me while I was walking the dog and asked about Miss Eleanor.

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Speaker 1: I tried to give a vague answer, but he point blank asked me if she was in the hospital.

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Speaker 1: I was caught off guard by the direct question and replied in the affirmative.

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Speaker 1: Afterwards, I felt regret for doing so. This is someone else's personal health information which they may or may not want disclosed. I resolved to do better.

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Speaker 1: It happened again this week

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Speaker 1: while I initially gave general answers in the end, he pinned me down with another direct question. Clearly I need a better game plan. Do you have suggestions for some guidelines or a sample script. Would it be best to reply? You should reach out to her and ask. I appreciate any assistance you can provide. Best jenny.

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Speaker 1: Oh, jenny, thank you so much for this question. There is so much going on here and I want to talk about all of it.

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Speaker 1: I feel like there is a lot of classic etiquette in this question and I don't think it's one that we've addressed on this show before. So

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Speaker 1: even though this is a very difficult situation, thank you for sharing it with us because it gives us a chance to talk about some things that are important dan. This is a really great question because in a lot of ways and we talk about this in some of our books, there's this sort of

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Speaker 1: good gossip that happens when neighbors and family and friends let each other know when someone is going through a hard time, but it's such a delicate gray area. It is, it isn't a hard and fast line of exactly what you can say and exactly what you can't say. And it's why I, I almost think dan that jenny answered the question for us at the very end when she says you should reach out to her and ask because I think that is the best pivot point whenever you start to feel uncomfortable about being asked about someone else's life, no matter the topic,

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Speaker 1: you know, oh boy, I know I'm helping her out right now, but you should, you should reach out and ask

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Speaker 1: or you should reach out and get the story straight from her just so that you get it from the horse's mouth, so to speak from, from the direct person.

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Speaker 1: And I think when we read that sentence, I was like, oh she nailed it, she nailed it.

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Speaker 1: It's really hard though when you're in the spot, isn't it? No. And and one of the things that we know can be so helpful when you are on the spot is having a bottom line, having an escape hatch, having that sample script already and a little direction,

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Speaker 1: reminding someone that if they're curious, they can always go to the source I think is

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Speaker 1: the classic floor for any question about gossip, good or bad and

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Speaker 1: what your ultimate parameters are. I was sort of proud of myself, I had an idea for another little sandwich. What have you got? What have you got could potentially come across less as saying, this is some action you should take and might bring the focus back on you a little bit.

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Speaker 1: You can say something like, you know, I should really check before I say more o or I should really check before I say clapping, clapping, audience clapped. This is such a good sample script. You know, I should really check before I say more, I'm not comfortable answering all the questions I should, I should ask first before I do. I think that is brilliant because brilliant, lets you

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Speaker 1: stop. If you've already started to walk down the path a little bit and you're starting to think that maybe you've gone too far or you can use it early on, but it's a sample script that takes the focus off them, keeps it on you. And

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Speaker 1: also is a reminder that there's things that are private and that you probably shouldn't share unless you're

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Speaker 1: pretty sure that it's okay. I wanted to take a great big

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Speaker 1: reset and I wish we could sample in the sound of a tape deck rewinding really quickly. But I was also thinking about a general practice of when you get information like this, asking if it's okay to share or who it's okay to share with or how much you can share.

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Speaker 1: Because if you've got that in your pocket, then you can be that agent of good that you were talking about at the start of this question. It might be

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Speaker 1: really helpful for out of state family to have

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Speaker 1: an ambassador on the street downtown who can let the church community No. Or the neighborhood No. Or whatever the group is, that might be supportive at a difficult time. And getting that word out

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Speaker 1: is part of the way we support each other and help each other even when that word isn't

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Speaker 1: good news. Absolutely. I know that in our hard Times chapter of the 20th edition, we make that specific suggestion of when you do find out difficult, hard or sometimes even interesting and wonderful news

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Speaker 1: that it is really important to ask. Are we sharing? Am I allowed to share it with other people yet?

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Speaker 1: I've certainly on both of your kids, I asked, I was like, are we, you know, you, you told me right away, but I would have asked, you know, are we sharing it? Is it, can I tell my family? Should I be the person telling them? Or do you all want to be the person telling them? And it does make such a big difference. It's also such a wonderful moment of being considered when you're the person who receives that question of could I share it with other people? You just think, oh wow, that is so nice that they asked first. You know, even if the answer is yes, of course, it's so nice that they asked for it because I think you have just nailed this question, you can't see it. But I'm taking about you should be the other end of this, make you should be, you should be had a final thought was I wanna just

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Speaker 1: encourage jenny or say

00:23:13

Speaker 1: don't worry too much about it. I don't think those regrets need to haunt you. This is a judgment call decision and people make them all the time and I think

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Speaker 1: you do your best. You think about the nature of the situation and sometimes you make a call, you don't know, you haven't asked ahead of time. But

00:23:30

Speaker 1: you know, this isn't that serious health issue. It's something that is connected to this other person. The curiosity is, is genuine. It might even, it might even result in them getting left a plate of cookies or something. It's not salacious gossip. You're not sharing negative news just for the thrill of it.

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Speaker 1: Those are the places that people often times get in real trouble and

00:23:53

Speaker 1: it doesn't sound like you're in that kind of a situation here. So I also just wanted to say

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Speaker 1: these are minor infractions, they're important things to think about. They can be really serious, but

00:24:03

Speaker 1: don't beat yourself up too much jenny. Big salute to you for being a person, a neighbor who can step in and give both the family and Miss Eleanor comfort during a difficult time and for being the type of thoughtful person who wonders How much should I how much should I share?

00:24:21

Speaker 1: Really, really, really great, great etiquette moments all across the board

00:24:25

Speaker 1: and we certainly hope that our answer helps.

00:24:29

Speaker 1: Now the gossip began to spread Bill Ellis colored it a little more and passed it on. Then Christine manners took over.

00:24:37

Speaker 1: Yes, gossip spreads like wildfire, especially with the help of girls like Christine and by the end of the day the harm was done jeans reputation was ruined.

00:24:50

Speaker 1: Our next question is a mathematical title. Covid plus weddings plus kids equals question mark, solve for X. Dear lizzie and dan before I get to my question, let me first congratulate lizzie on the new Emily post wedding etiquette book. My copy just arrived yesterday

00:25:10

Speaker 1: and second thank you and your whole team for the podcast.

00:25:14

Speaker 1: I started listening two years ago when a senior member of my organization recommended the podcast to our staff of about 500 people as we were embarking on a very stressful merger.

00:25:25

Speaker 1: I feel that you have helped me become more at ease, respectful and considerate, not only in my professional life but in my personal life as well.

00:25:33

Speaker 1: In short, I feel like you to have helped me become a better person and I can't say how grateful I am for this gift.

00:25:40

Speaker 1: Okay. Now for my question,

00:25:43

Speaker 1: I recently became engaged and my partner and I are now proceeding with the myriad wedding planning tasks and decisions.

00:25:50

Speaker 1: We are wondering how to approach the age old question of inviting younger Children with a newer twist related to COVID-19 safety and consideration for other guests.

00:26:01

Speaker 1: I have been distressed about this for weeks because most of my out of town adult cousins and many guests have Children that range from infants to 18 years. So by not inviting Children, we would potentially be putting a considerable burden on those guests who are parents of younger Children since attending the wedding would mean securing child care for the event and or the whole weekend.

00:26:22

Speaker 1: I worry that this would not sit well with my cousins and friends who all had Children at their weddings. In fact I was one of those Children for some of my older cousins.

00:26:31

Speaker 1: However, my partner and I are also very concerned about the health and safety of our other older guests who are at a greater risk of serious complications from COVID-19. Should they become sick?

00:26:43

Speaker 1: For some background? We lost my uncle last year to the disease and a close family member recently fell ill from a breakthrough infection even after being fully vaccinated.

00:26:52

Speaker 1: So I tend to err on the side of caution

00:26:54

Speaker 1: The idea that my wedding of 100 guests would become a covid super spreader event and lead to the illness or worse of a loved one frankly terrifies me.

00:27:04

Speaker 1: Would we be able to say that Children under age 12 who are not yet eligible for vaccination may not attend?

00:27:11

Speaker 1: It may be worth noting that our indoor only venue requires proof of vaccination or a negative COVID-19 tests to enter the building.

00:27:19

Speaker 1: Do you have recommendations for sample language? We might include on the wedding invitation

00:27:24

Speaker 1: or website to convey our preference to keep this as an adult only ceremony and reception

00:27:30

Speaker 1: and any tips on how to communicate the part about the requirement for vaccination or negative test.

00:27:36

Speaker 1: Again, let me _ how happy and relieved I feel to have the 2021 wedding etiquette book to help guide me through the rest of the wedding process.

00:27:46

Speaker 1: Kind regards fretting Fiance, fretting Fiance, I hope, I hope we can take the fretting out of out of that closure by the end of this. And I want to thank you for your kind words about the wedding etiquette book. Uh it came out a number of years ago and it was co authored with my sister anna Post and it's I actually had a very similar feeling recently about that book. I've started rereading it

00:28:12

Speaker 1: in order to prepare for doing our online wedding program for wedding professionals

00:28:18

Speaker 1: and that I read the very first section of that book and I put it down called dan and I said dan, we have such a good book. It was so well done.

00:28:32

Speaker 1: That was the best call as he post. You just called me up really happy with some work that was out there and it has been out there for help. Yeah, like I will put the full credit in my mother and my sisters shoulders. I was tacked onto that book project at the last minute. I was not

00:28:48

Speaker 1: um in the trenches, so to speak on it. So credit, credit where credit is due. But when I read it, I was just like, oh my gosh, as we prepare to maybe rewrite this book, I can't, I like I'm thinking I can't write this any better. This is a great book. So anyway, thank you for enjoying that title and letting us talk about it for a second.

00:29:07

Speaker 1: There are lots of things to consider in your question and the big overarching one that I love reminding couples about is that it's your day

00:29:17

Speaker 1: and you really do get to set the guest list the way you want and need to. And that's an important thing to remember. We talk in that edition uh, in the wedding etiquette book, the sixth edition about how it is perfectly ok to set age limits on Children. And that means there will be some families who are divided. They have a

00:29:35

Speaker 1: 13 year old and they have a 10 year old. The 13 year old could come the 10 year old couldn't

00:29:40

Speaker 1: I? Was that child? I was kept away from my, my aunt's wedding and my sister was a flower girl in it. And it's just a reality of sometimes how things are when it comes to weddings. I tend to think that your considerations about making sure you're adhering to the venues requirements

00:30:00

Speaker 1: is a good idea.

00:30:01

Speaker 1: While I understand that, that means that under 12 because they cannot be vaccinated, they might be able to just do the COVID tests. I could see for a family who's already experienced a loss that this is just a little scarier and you might take it a little even

00:30:18

Speaker 1: I don't want to say more seriously because I don't want to put down anyone who's also still taking it seriously. But doing this version of it, I would say that just people who are choosing to be extra cautious about it, I think it's fine for you to go the route of no Children under 12.

00:30:35

Speaker 1: I do think dan that communication then becomes key

00:30:38

Speaker 1: and we talk a lot about the invitation is kind of a, I don't want to call it sacred but a sacred place where you, you don't put too much direction other than just inviting the people to the event, letting them know that they are welcome to come, that you would be honored by their presence. And I think that that is really important. So I would not put adults only or only over 12 on the invitation. I would be certain that the invitations that go out state very clearly the exact members of the family who are invited. I might even very specific, I might even do something like, like let's say we have a split household of Children of age groups. I might send an invitation to the parents with their names on it

00:31:20

Speaker 1: and then send a second invitation

00:31:22

Speaker 1: to the Children who are coming who are being invited. And just, I know it sounds harsh and these things might be things you follow up with a phone call to let people know, hey, I know that that we've done a dividing line, there is a reason for it and we're trying to adhere to both our venue and our own sense of safety.

00:31:41

Speaker 1: We really hope

00:31:43

Speaker 1: that you will be able to come in any way that you can and we understand if you're not able to make it due to the restrictions we have to place on our event. And I think that communicating that verbally, especially to anyone who would be particularly sensitive to it is a very thoughtful way to go.

00:31:59

Speaker 1: I think that putting it on your wedding website, making sure that it gets spread via word of mouth, you know, encourage cousins to talk to each other, encourage aunts and uncles to make it clear with their adult Children who's invited and who's not. I think those are big helpful things when you're navigating something that's,

00:32:19

Speaker 1: that's a little delicate and a little complicated

00:32:22

Speaker 1: and is important and it's a very practical consideration. So the idea that someone would

00:32:29

Speaker 1: encounter a section of a wedding website that is about covid considerations or covid planning is something that people are

00:32:38

Speaker 1: expecting. If not it's something that people are ready for. If not expecting. At this point, I would even cause go so far as to title that section, please read in my head. I want it to be must read, but we're trying to be polite. So I think like a please read before making your plans where your spelling out that the venues requiring proof of vaccination or proof of a negative covid test

00:33:04

Speaker 1: Where you're, you know, re mentioning that due to the situation and people under 12 not being able to be vaccinated. We are making 12 are cut off and saying in that moment on the website that you are sad that this leaves out some people, but you had to make a couple of tough decisions. And this was one of them.

00:33:21

Speaker 1: I think a lot of people are very understanding at this time that this is a really tough thing to figure out and coordinate and and make happen. And it's all supposed to be in support of

00:33:32

Speaker 1: a really wonderful event. I don't want that to get lost either in all of the planning and all the care around making sure that it's a safe wedding. You want people to still feel excited. You still want to feel excited.

00:33:47

Speaker 1: And I think that the way that you choose to talk about it and the way that you choose to communicate with your guests can can help keep that spirit alive, even as you're delivering kind of tight restrictions,

00:34:01

Speaker 1: lizzie post, do you think there's any room here for

00:34:04

Speaker 1: this type of information to go on that

00:34:08

Speaker 1: insert that we talk about going with the invitation. I know it's a line, it's not on the invitation with it. It's a layer to back in the envelope. I think that that's actually another really great place to put it again, it's not on the invitation itself, but it's either on the packet that follows the invitation. You know, once someone has said they're coming or if you're not doing that type of a packet, then it does get included with the invitation, but never on the invitation. And I think that is a great idea. You want to catch people at as many points as you can and always as politely as you can, I'll confess for me the trick here got in how much explaining to do because in my head I said to myself, it's totally fine amount of kids at a wedding, you can make that choice. It's a choice a lot of people make.

00:34:53

Speaker 1: And

00:34:54

Speaker 1: as I read the question, I started to realize that

00:34:57

Speaker 1: even though it's a not uncommon choice that in this situation are fretting fiance is making it for a different reason. We're having, you know, kids wedding, but it's the covid thing and actually really would love to be there and love to have your kids there. And I remember good times when I was there

00:35:12

Speaker 1: and I don't know how much of that you need to get into that you might want to keep the focus on the important information that you're sharing and let those word of mouth conversations be the place where you can

00:35:24

Speaker 1: get into that fine tuning where you share more of your thoughts and feelings about the whole situation. Absolutely

00:35:31

Speaker 1: fretting fiance. We hope we are able to change your status. Too excited. Happy jubilant fiance. And we truly hope that your wedding is both a wonderful and safe event

00:35:44

Speaker 2: this

00:35:44

Speaker 1: year.

00:36:03

Speaker 1: Our next question is titled Jack and Jill shower with tickets. Hello dan and lizzie. I have a question about an upcoming Jack and Jill. My past dance teacher is getting married. I'm so excited for her and she has been through a lot over the years and he seems simply wonderful.

00:36:20

Speaker 1: We don't get to see each other often, but we follow each other on social media where we are both active and often comment or like each other's postings this past week, she posted an invite on her social media page to her 1200-plus followers inviting them

00:36:38

Speaker 1: to their Jack and Jill In a few weeks,

00:36:41

Speaker 1: tickets will be sold for this event where there will be food, drink games and raffles in a local park. I'm not close enough to or to be on the wedding invite list by any means, but I would consider buying a ticket to the Jack and Jill to support and visit with them before the wedding.

00:36:58

Speaker 1: My question is this when a Jack and Jill involves buying tickets to the event and most likely buying raffle tickets at the event is a shower gift still expected and if so, should it be brought to the event or mailed to their home.

00:37:14

Speaker 1: Thank you for all your great etiquette advice over the years and especially during this past year and a half of new challenges to be navigated, best wishes to you both.

00:37:22

Speaker 1: Friendly acquaintance,

00:37:24

Speaker 1: friendly acquaintance. Thank you so much for the question. I'm going to bow out now. I have no idea what's going on anymore. The world is turned upside down. It's on its head and it's spinning. You need, you need some smelling salts because thanks some other people might do. I thought showers were small,

00:37:44

Speaker 1: relatively intimate events for friends and family to shower a guest of honor with gifts. So the gift flow goes that direction and

00:37:54

Speaker 1: to be invited,

00:37:56

Speaker 1: you pretty much have to for for a wedding shower be invited to the main event. Also, it's um

00:38:02

Speaker 1: pretty, pretty standard in my etiquette calculations that all of those things fall into line and maybe I'm misunderstanding because there's something being called a Jack and Jill, which I'm used to that being a jack and Jill shower. So twist on a tradition where both members of the couple being married attend the wedding shower.

00:38:22

Speaker 1: Help me out here.

00:38:24

Speaker 1: I have to tell you because the, the, the only way that I know about this particular type of Jack and Jill is because I was knocked over with a feather when a reporter told me that this is actually, I don't want to say fair, fairly common, but it is a regional practice

00:38:44

Speaker 1: and the Jack and Jill is, it's a party that the community, like it's really funny. The couple hosts the party, but the community is invited for the purpose of doing things like buying tickets, buying raffles and

00:39:02

Speaker 1: basically helping to fund the wedding and it was, I remember the first time I heard it, I was like that's, that's so not like it is so not what I'm familiar with as being a polite thing to do.

00:39:17

Speaker 1: But it turns out that there are some really wonderful communities out there where this has become a tradition

00:39:23

Speaker 1: and so much like much like I feel like a shower of the old days where you might not have been invited to the wedding, but all the people in the bride's town would get together to make sure she had enough things for her Trousseau or her dowry or whatever. The legends of how showers became, there's a couple different stories of them. But

00:39:41

Speaker 1: it reminds me a bit of that where those people probably weren't people who ended up at the actual service and and ceremony and reception afterwards.

00:39:48

Speaker 1: But they wanted to see this person celebrated well at this point. And so if this is something your community does participate and feel confident participating, this does not need to be labeled were different tacky grab for gifts. Any of the above. If this is how your community celebrates

00:40:09

Speaker 1: a couple that they really want to send off. Well, it often happens this way. I am going to use this moment to cause to say if you are part of a community that does this, will you please write into us and give us as many details about how these go down and where the good etiquette and we're the bad etiquette would be, were being asked by friendly acquaintance

00:40:28

Speaker 1: do I bring a gift? And I'm just gonna say, you can always bring a gift to a celebration

00:40:34

Speaker 1: whether it gets opened. Whether or not everyone else is bringing gives us a different matter. If no one else is bringing gift, you might give your gift a little more quietly on the side. Um, but you can always give someone a gift. It's never gonna be, I think a bad thing to give a gift. I'm sure we could find some situation, but it's, I don't think this is it.

00:40:52

Speaker 1: And that being said, I love the fact that this is something that you could participate in to support this person that you've cared about. And you still keep in touch with, as you say, as a friendly acquaintance overtime, lizzie, thank you for explaining that. And also thank you for going back to core principles. I appreciate the broad thinking about where a shower comes from, the purpose that it serves and you making that connection to the idea of community support for people who are going through important transitional times. And

00:41:23

Speaker 1: I'm seeing much more clearly that shower connection, even though the form,

00:41:31

Speaker 1: he is quite different and

00:41:33

Speaker 1: could be confusing. And I think for me that's where the etiquette would start to pop up, start to bubble up where the streams might get crossed

00:41:41

Speaker 1: that moment that I had that moment that you said you had, when you first got exposed to this type of thing. Well, and I had the same moment you do where I'm used to a Jack and Jill being a type of shower you do. And obviously in this case Jack and Jill for hetero couple, it would be that your, you know, both the men and the women are invited and everybody is going to be at the shower. You and pooch for instance. Well

00:42:07

Speaker 1: wait for your wedding. Did you guys have a Jack and Jill shower? No, we did. It was so much fun. You did know because it's for the baby was for the baby and baby. It's not really called a Jack and Jill shower, but the phrase Jack and Jill, I had only ever associated with weddings in that particular context to mean that men and women would both be at the party

00:42:26

Speaker 1: and I think most showers now a days are all gender inclusive and it's just kind of the style that the particular person being honored whether it's a baby shower, whether it's a wedding shower wants to experience. I had a ton of fun at the, it was, it was an all girls shower for puja. It was an absolute blast and we also had a really great time, anna's all girls shower. And so there have been some, some fun ones like that, but I'm a fan of opening it up to everybody, but that is not what this party is the Jack and Jill in this case refers specifically to this big community event where you just as it's written here, you buy raffle tickets, you buy tickets to the event and it all goes towards helping the couple.

00:43:11

Speaker 1: But yeah, I I still just want to put the call out here to anyone who experiences this particular type of Jack and Jill

00:43:18

Speaker 1: and to help us learn the etiquette around it.

00:43:22

Speaker 1: Friendly acquaintance. Your final question was about delivery of the gift and I would say think practically about it, bring it with you, look for a good opportunity, but if there's not an obvious place to receive it or a chance to connect with the couple,

00:43:36

Speaker 1: I think sending it directly as a way to be sure that it gets to them. Absolutely friendly acquaintance. We hope this event is awesome and that you have a lot of fun at it and thank you so much for giving us the opportunity to explore this particular type of Jack and Jill.

00:43:53

Speaker 1: Mm

00:43:54

Speaker 1: thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463. You can also reach us on social media on twitter. We are at Emily post inst

00:44:12

Speaker 1: on instagram, we are at Emily Post Institute

00:44:15

Speaker 1: and on facebook. We are awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your posts so that we know you want your question on the show.

00:44:23

Speaker 1: Yeah,

00:44:27

Speaker 1: if you love awesome etiquette, please consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette. You'll get an ad free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content plus you'll feel great knowing that you helped keep awesome etiquette on the air and to those of you who are already sustaining members,

00:44:49

Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your support. Every time we see a new sustaining member or someone up their membership from like a $1 to a $5 dan and I do happy dances, we skip around, we get so excited so we just want to say thank you so much for bringing that into our lives.

00:45:09

Speaker 1: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer in the topics we cover and today we have feedback from Shannon. Hey dan and lizzie just wanted to send a quick note with some feedback on episode 3 62 last name, Nuisance.

00:45:25

Speaker 1: I am so glad this question was asked on the show. I like your question, asked her also decided to keep my given name instead of taking my husband's family name.

00:45:35

Speaker 1: One idea, we had to communicate this to everyone at our wedding was to have our DJ announce us as we'd like to be addressed when we re joined our guests at the reception.

00:45:46

Speaker 1: When it came time for us to enter the hall, the DJ simply announced. Now for the first time as a married couple, the newlyweds, his full name and my full name or perhaps your officiant could also do this following the ceremony. It won't cover everyone of course, but we thought it was a great way to make it known.

00:46:05

Speaker 1: Also, just a word

00:46:07

Speaker 1: to a fellow bride. You will get asked the question plenty of times. So I wouldn't feel the need to correct someone directly unless someone has made the mistake multiple times. They will get it eventually through word of mouth from family members or friends. They will notice when you don't change your name on facebook or when you send out greeting cards and thank you notes.

00:46:26

Speaker 1: It's still a very normal assumption to make for heterosexual couples. But

00:46:32

Speaker 1: I think the one thing we can do to change the norm is actually to make a point of asking other women how they want to be addressed? I very much appreciate being asked in this way. How would you like us to address you when you are married as opposed to? So will you be taking johnny's last name?

00:46:52

Speaker 1: The difference in tone here made me feel like my choice was honored and respected.

00:46:57

Speaker 1: Ps I also love the idea of putting it on your wedding website. Great solution, all the best Shannon

00:47:04

Speaker 1: Shannon. Thank you so much for that feedback. We couldn't agree more. And it is so great to hear from someone who is living example of it. Thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please please keep them coming. You can send us your feedback or update two awesome medicated Emily post dot com or leave us a voicemail or text message at 802858 K. I. N. D. That's 8028585463.

00:47:35

Speaker 1: It's time for our post group segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette and today we're going to continue dan's interview with etiquette author and Nasa scientist Donald James,

00:47:47

Speaker 1: His new book manners will take you where brains and money won't is excellent. And if you haven't already listened to episode 3 65 with the first half of the interview,

00:47:56

Speaker 1: we highly recommend going back and giving a listen dan take us away.

00:48:01

Speaker 1: There's another concept in this book that I really loved that, I was hoping you would maybe talk about a little bit with us. And

00:48:09

Speaker 1: While I connected with the pink suits concept in a very personal way. Um when you talked about three mies, I found myself

00:48:19

Speaker 1: both connecting to it in a personal way, but also being really interested as someone who has written about etiquette and does a lot of thinking about

00:48:27

Speaker 1: human relationships and using human relationships as a measure for

00:48:33

Speaker 1: identifying good behaviors or as a way to

00:48:37

Speaker 1: decide what's the right thing to do or what you want to do in a given situation.

00:48:42

Speaker 1: And it can get really complicated when you're thinking about yourself through the lens of others.

00:48:47

Speaker 1: Could you help us out with that? Could you help me out with that and talk a little bit about the three knees?

00:48:53

Speaker 2: I have to confess. I'm like, oh, I hope he doesn't ask about the three meals because I tell you I have to reread that because it's really a challenging thing even for me to follow. But let me try.

00:49:08

Speaker 2: This came out of a Nasa training, you know, I'm a training junkie as I wrote about in the book, I took every training known to mankind, both inside and outside of Nasa and this is a training class and

00:49:19

Speaker 2: the invitation was with respect to understanding the three different mies, a kind of live in your world was

00:49:27

Speaker 2: what is it that you think other people think about you essentially. And so you write down all these characteristics and qualities and

00:49:36

Speaker 2: then

00:49:37

Speaker 2: uh, you had to write down your opinions about other people. So you actually got to collect and it was all anonymous, You didn't know who wrote what, but you got to see

00:49:47

Speaker 2: what other people said about you

00:49:50

Speaker 2: and what's interesting is that when you compare what you thought other people thought about you versus what they actually thought about you often it was different. It wasn't it wasn't really aligned. And so what did that tell me? So, first of all, told me that the narrative in my head about gee, I wonder what you know damn thinks about me, wonder what am I think, you know, what is really what I think about myself. And so so the trick is to really realize that you are assigning a narrative about yourself that may not be accurate. And I feel that the importance of getting that

00:50:32

Speaker 2: is to liberate yourself from this notion of what other people think about you. Like, you know, you know, in the book I wrote about, you know, Mama's rules, right? And one of her rules was what other people think about you is none of your business.

00:50:51

Speaker 2: And most people, when they talk about Mama's rules to me, they mentioned that one as the one that lands the most impactful lee to them, that they that that one really sticks

00:51:04

Speaker 2: because we are often paralyzed in our consideration about whether people think. And so

00:51:12

Speaker 2: the exercise is designed to point out that oftentimes you don't really have it, right? And more importantly, why does it even matter? You know, why why does it even matter? So this?

00:51:23

Speaker 2: I feel this is the pathway to authenticity where you can feel much more comfortable in your own skin with who you are because you're not

00:51:34

Speaker 2: overly sense about what other people are going to think now

00:51:38

Speaker 1: the challenge

00:51:39

Speaker 2: is that if you're in a professional environment, that's not an excuse to be ignorant of your manner in a professional environment because you think, well, since I don't care what they think,

00:51:52

Speaker 2: I'm just going to wear torn jeans and a tight I shirt to the formal dinner, because I just feel more comfortable in that

00:51:59

Speaker 2: that may be okay as long as you are also aware that

00:52:04

Speaker 2: people are going to think about what you're wearing and it may create a narrative in their head that could impact you late, Iran. So it's kind of a that this is why this is difficult because it's subtle, it's and it's and it's a gray area, but it can be very freeing because when you're with somebody who, you know, feels very authentic and very genuine and very comfortable in their skin, that can be very attractive. I mean, it's kind of like that, even if you don't particularly care for who they are, he said, well, he's his own man or is his own woman, that's what it is. So,

00:52:40

Speaker 2: you know, it's it's just recognizing what your mind is doing to you, I suppose, you know, your mind, you know, thinks you're a certain way and your mind thinks other people think a certain way and it turns out there it may not really be true. So, I, like I said, I literally go back and I reread that section to see if I can come up with a better way of

00:53:02

Speaker 2: articulating not only what that is, but why it's important. So, I challenge your readers and your listeners to go to that section and then maybe they can email me and tell me better what it means and how it affects them.

00:53:17

Speaker 1: Oh, do not sell yourself sure. You did a really good job with it. The

00:53:22

Speaker 1: the question of our perception and the limits of it and

00:53:27

Speaker 2: the

00:53:28

Speaker 1: unfortunate reality that we need to manage ourselves based on those limited perceptions is

00:53:35

Speaker 1: is something that great philosophers have spent many, many gallons of ink trying to describe, talk about, explain and figure out.

00:53:45

Speaker 1: It's it's really not easy. And I think that you did a really good job of

00:53:50

Speaker 1: keeping the focus appropriate for an etiquette book, which is on the implications for the way we manage our own

00:53:59

Speaker 2: behavior

00:54:00

Speaker 1: and very specifically the implications that

00:54:03

Speaker 1: our assumptions about what other people are thinking may or may not be true. And that while it's the best information that we have to go with, it's really up to us to use it

00:54:16

Speaker 1: in the best way that we can to moderate our own bank.

00:54:19

Speaker 2: I will add that one of the benefits of understanding that, you know, what other people's narratives are about. You may not be what you think they are,

00:54:31

Speaker 2: Is that in certain situations it could be catastrophic. So let me just give you an example, your listeners don't know this, but I'm African-American 64 years old. And as many of your listeners know, there's

00:54:44

Speaker 2: been a thing in our culture, in our society about what happens when black people are pulled over by

00:54:51

Speaker 2: police officers particularly who are caucasian. So let's say that I'm pulled over and I've got this narrative in my head that oh my God, this is a white cop and he thinks that I'm this kind of a person or that kind of a person.

00:55:06

Speaker 2: So I may construct this whole narrative about what the cop thinks about me, even though he doesn't know me

00:55:15

Speaker 2: right, we never met before, but I'm thinking that he's analyzing a situation, this is a black man and here's his car and this is what he was doing and whatever it is.

00:55:26

Speaker 2: So if I am so sure about what he thinks about me, even though he doesn't know me, it might cause me to behave in a way that may not go well.

00:55:36

Speaker 2: And so it's important to really understand the dynamic that's actually happening because it's just like when I'm walking down the street and I write about this in the book and I may come across a woman who then takes a glance at me and clutches her purse because you know, she might be afraid that I'm gonna steal her purse or whatever it is.

00:55:56

Speaker 2: I mean, I know

00:55:58

Speaker 2: that if the person knew who I was. You know, she might ask me out and say, let's go to dinner, You're a cool guy. But she doesn't know that she just

00:56:06

Speaker 2: makes up information based on what little data that she has and it causes her behaviour to reflect that. So I think the importance of getting this right is to understand how this can play out because how you respond is a manners matter. It's your manner, your manner is going to reveal

00:56:29

Speaker 2: the truth about what you're thinking and doing. And that could cause you to have a bad day.

00:56:35

Speaker 2: It's why black parents have the so called talk with their Children, especially their sons. The talk is this is how you keep yourself from getting killed when you encounter a policeman or somebody else who may not look at you as an individual, but look at you as a black person. That's what the talk is about. And if you ask any black

00:56:59

Speaker 2: man who has a son or a daughter and said, you know what this thing is about the talk, they'll say, oh yeah, you know, it's just not something that's talked about a lot, but it's true

00:57:10

Speaker 1: and it's complicated

00:57:12

Speaker 1: and about. The only thing that I can imagine that's more difficult than trying to wrap your head around it is

00:57:19

Speaker 1: the idea of trying to explain it to a young person. And that is another place where I

00:57:26

Speaker 2: I think

00:57:27

Speaker 1: that you're writing is just so successful. There is a quality throughout this book of

00:57:33

Speaker 1: parental wisdom being passed on and I know for you it's very direct. This book references your mother and all that she taught you.

00:57:42

Speaker 1: And

00:57:43

Speaker 1: that information is then presented through the lens of your life experience applying

00:57:50

Speaker 1: those lessons. And

00:57:53

Speaker 1: I just think that you've done a really nice job of

00:57:58

Speaker 1: communicating that transference of wisdom. But

00:58:02

Speaker 1: doing it into a context that that is uh sort of definitional or or a metaphor for so many people for the future.

00:58:12

Speaker 1: It really does feel like in

00:58:15

Speaker 1: so many ways that your mother is really the heart of this book or is really at the heart of this book.

00:58:22

Speaker 2: I truly believe that I truly believe that that was true. It saved me and helped me.

00:58:31

Speaker 2: And so when I reflected on my career and you know, when I was asked a question by the young man and the talk that I write about who said, you know, well how would you advise yourself if you were my age and knowing what you know now that's why I talked about the importance of manners. I said, I think

00:58:46

Speaker 2: that made the biggest difference in the world. Now, that's not an excuse not to be good at what you're doing. As I say in the book, you know, you have to know how to fly the plane, right? American Airlines didn't hire my brother to be a pilot because he had good manners,

00:59:00

Speaker 2: right? He they hired him because he knew how to fly a plane.

00:59:04

Speaker 2: Exactly. But as my brother would say

00:59:07

Speaker 2: having great manners can be the tie breaker and he knows clearly pilots who applied for jobs who didn't get it because of how they showed up in the interview. So you can't just rely on your good manners to do certain jobs and have certain skills. But as I say also

00:59:27

Speaker 2: being smart isn't good enough right? Everybody in Nasa smart, right? You know I kind of snuck in, I got lucky but you can't go around that everybody is smart. You know, they got advanced degrees, I've got a lot of experience but being smart is not good enough.

00:59:42

Speaker 1: So speaking of smarts and smarts not being enough in life, you use a really interesting example of

00:59:51

Speaker 1: students deciding what kind of classes to take whether or not to take ap college level credit classes in high school as a way to examine questions about honesty and authenticity and

01:00:06

Speaker 2: right.

01:00:07

Speaker 1: It was kind of surprising advice for me to hear from someone talking about parental guidance and the significant lessons one can get from parental guidance. And

01:00:19

Speaker 1: I think superficially it was surprising advice but fundamentally it was really good advice because it addresses something that that lizzie and I both think is so important. In fact, fundamentally important to good etiquette which is honesty,

01:00:34

Speaker 2: I appreciate this part because I feel that if

01:00:39

Speaker 2: people can understand this and and then look at their own behaviors and manners accordingly that it's going to make a huge difference. You know, the reason I raised the connection with a PS and advanced placement, I have nothing against advanced placement classes, you know, in and of itself.

01:01:00

Speaker 2: But what I have come to appreciate from talking to many students and parents, particularly in my previous capacity at Nasa, which was running Nasa's education program,

01:01:11

Speaker 2: is that

01:01:13

Speaker 2: they were often

01:01:15

Speaker 2: desired as a way to get something else. You know, they were trying to,

01:01:20

Speaker 2: you know, spice up there, you know, academic resume because that, you know, it was going to look good for the admissions officers and colleges and things like that. And so, you know, I've been troubled by that because I felt that although I appreciate, you know, efforts that people take to get into colleges they want. I didn't feel that

01:01:41

Speaker 2: a lot of it was done authentically meaning that the person genuinely was interested in the topic and wanted to learn it. That's why I wrote about, well what happens if, you know,

01:01:52

Speaker 2: your classes didn't have Ap or honors. It was just, you know, chemistry 101 to 02 and all that stuff versus an option to take an honors Chemistry, you know, which would you choose right? And so if you choose the honors one and your reason as well because that's gonna look better,

01:02:09

Speaker 2: then it feels a little bit like pretending and feels a little bit like inauthentic not because you're generally interested in it.

01:02:18

Speaker 2: And we know what has happened with the extent to which students and parents will go to, to quote game the system. And we, and I talked about this where we saw in the news about, you know, the parents who,

01:02:36

Speaker 2: you know, were arrested because somehow they manipulated the system to get into schools and things like that. And so, you know, I just wanted to raise the question, I mean, if you're, you know, if you're in the middle of a crisis and you have to get medical care, I mean, do you really want your doctor to have gotten to where he or she is? Because they figured out how to gain the system to get there? And it turns out that they really didn't

01:03:03

Speaker 2: fully grasp the topic and the subject at hand because they genuinely loved it and now they're really good at what they do. So,

01:03:10

Speaker 2: you know, it causes a question about that. So, um, and I'm sure there's checks and balances to prevent that. I'm not saying that, you know, there are a lot of doctors to do that, but it's a concern that I have. And so

01:03:22

Speaker 2: I would like

01:03:24

Speaker 2: the pursuit of

01:03:25

Speaker 1: any study

01:03:26

Speaker 2: any element that you're interested in to be based on a genuine interest in in the topic. I'll give you a very deeply personal example, we talked about at the outset when you asked me about, you know, my title, you know, I do not have

01:03:42

Speaker 1: a PhD.

01:03:44

Speaker 2: Um I had an opportunity to get one based on the fellowship that I had received and I chose to start working instead

01:03:52

Speaker 2: and I said, well I'll go get one later if I wanted to. And then later in life when I started feeling like I was regretting not getting a PhD because many of my colleagues have doctorates and and I thought,

01:04:04

Speaker 2: you know, I should just go do this. But I realized that I would be doing it for the wrong reasons. I didn't have a genuine

01:04:13

Speaker 2: topic of interest that I wanted to pursue that. I was thinking about getting a doctorate just to be able to say that I got a doctorate just to be able to say I put that in my title. And so that would be an example of doing something that was not authentic because I was trying to look important,

01:04:34

Speaker 2: you know, because I did that as contrasted with writing the manners book, many people, I'm sure write books because they just like the idea of being an author and all of that. I know that I wrote this because after I answered that young man's question about how would I advise myself

01:04:53

Speaker 2: if I can go back in time knowing what I know now

01:04:56

Speaker 2: that this book is the longer answer to that question. My mission in life, my passion, our students and their transformative development for it. I and I I live that I have a lot of young mentees. Um, you know, my own Children have probably are sick of me, you know, uh things that I talked about and do, but they're they're really good. So I this is really what's important to me. So

01:05:21

Speaker 2: this book was

01:05:23

Speaker 2: emanated from my authentic desire to share what I think I've learned, even if I may be wrong. You know, this is not a work of scholarship or even if people disagree or they have different points of view, it is who I am and what I believe in. So

01:05:43

Speaker 2: that's a distinction for me personally about

01:05:46

Speaker 2: considering something to do, getting a doctorate that would be inauthentic because I was just trying to check a box versus something that I'm genuinely interested in. So I know that when I'm around people that I feel are authentically who they are, that they're not pretending to be someone else, are not putting on an act,

01:06:07

Speaker 2: right? You know, there I've interviewed a lot of people and I feel like many times people coming to the interview and they have this act called, I'm gonna be a great interviewer act and I and I appreciate that they do all the little things that, you know, we learned in interviewing one on one and all of that, but I often wonder whether or not when they

01:06:27

Speaker 2: leave the interview room

01:06:30

Speaker 2: are they the same person? Like, is that who I'm gonna see when we hire them in their at work every day? Um and so that's what I'm yearning for is that sense of

01:06:42

Speaker 2: authenticity and presence. The presence part of that, which I really learned a lot from Amy Cuddy who was from the Harvard business school and her work in this is

01:06:52

Speaker 2: that

01:06:54

Speaker 2: they're with me, they're just they're present their their connected. Um

01:07:00

Speaker 2: you know,

01:07:00

Speaker 1: the only way I can explain

01:07:01

Speaker 2: this is that I tell people that you know, when I talk on the phone with people,

01:07:07

Speaker 2: I don't do anything else. I sit down and I talked to people on the phone. Whereas my spouse, she can do three or four other things, you know, she's got her airpods on, she's working in the kitchen, she's reading a text and you know the conversation may be good and maybe affection and all that stuff. I can't do that because I feel so committed

01:07:27

Speaker 2: to being present for the conversation and the person

01:07:31

Speaker 2: that I have to sit down and and and block everything else out. So when I'm with somebody who I feel is present with me, even in conversations, you know, their eyes and their body language all says to me for this time in this moment I am with you and your what matters to me

01:07:50

Speaker 2: just gives me a

01:07:51

Speaker 1: profound sense of

01:07:52

Speaker 2: connection to that person.

01:07:54

Speaker 2: And so that's why I wrote the chapter in that is to invite people to look at how they can have a profound sense of connection with other people as not only a gift to them, but as a gift to yourself.

01:08:09

Speaker 1: I don't think I could do or say anything to wrap up our time together any better than that.

01:08:16

Speaker 1: Your passion for this material and you're the depth of your understanding really come through both in your writing and in talking to you. Thank you so much for writing this book and for spending a little bit of time with us today. I hope that we can

01:08:32

Speaker 1: rope you into coming back sometime and maybe answering some listener questions with lizzie and I

01:08:38

Speaker 2: thank you any time

01:08:40

Speaker 2: I would love to. This is

01:08:42

Speaker 2: I believe this is important work or our planet and for people and this is,

01:08:50

Speaker 2: I'll dare say it like this. I think the work that we're doing collectively really is the secret sauce for the

01:08:59

Speaker 2: you know, the improvement of the human condition. I honestly believe that um and I think it starts with our manners and um you guys have done incredible work in this area and

01:09:14

Speaker 2: um I hope to just be another voice, you know in this very important process. You know, this is

01:09:21

Speaker 2: this is the technology that we need. I believe that

01:09:28

Speaker 1: dan thank you so much for doing this interview with Donald James. I am certain that we will be hearing more from him in the future on this

01:09:36

Speaker 2: show.

01:09:40

Speaker 2: We

01:09:42

Speaker 1: like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing in the world and that can come in so many forms. Today we have a salute from Christie.

01:09:53

Speaker 1: I would like to give an etiquette salute to our new uncle joe the triple A man who came to our rescue last weekend when we dropped our son off for his first year of college

01:10:04

Speaker 1: because he was moving so far away. We took his car to campus

01:10:08

Speaker 1: because the car is a bit older and was originally purchased just to go to and from high school and sporting events. My husband brother in law and son hold it there on a trailer.

01:10:18

Speaker 1: It worked perfectly when our son drove it onto the trailer before we left Arizona. But have it, it wasn't working when we arrived at our destination, a lovely but tiny town in Iowa.

01:10:30

Speaker 1: None of the local auto shops were able to help. That weekend Tripoli sent someone to our hotel and warned us there may be nothing there. Local person joe could do but help us tow the car to a shop.

01:10:42

Speaker 1: Well they apparently don't know joe not only did joe climb his way into the car bo duke style, the door couldn't open while on the trailer, he stayed with us all day through multiple starts and fails troubleshooting pushing the car up a small hill to pop the clutch

01:10:59

Speaker 1: tremendous ups and then disappointing down

01:11:03

Speaker 1: as things we thought had worked failed again. It was hot, it was muggy and for part of the day, we were in a retail auto parts parking lot.

01:11:12

Speaker 1: He let my husband and brother in law borrow his valuable tools while he ran to another appointment and he checked in with ideas frequently. His cheerfulness kept us from losing hope as our time to leave our son behind was rapidly approaching,

01:11:26

Speaker 1: joe was more than kind to us. He treated our son's problem like it was his son's problem. He treated us like family. I am so grateful

01:11:34

Speaker 1: and though we did not ultimately get the car running that day, we were able to diagnose the actual problem and get a referral to a reliable shop that can do the work soon.

01:11:44

Speaker 1: More than that. Our new uncle joe gave us peace of mind knowing we were leaving our son half a country away. But in very good hands.

01:11:53

Speaker 1: Thank you for all that you do. I love listening and learning through your books and the awesome etiquette podcast Christie Christie, thank you so much for that salute. Please raise your hand if you have ever met a joe in your life who has helped you just so well during a crisis, I feel like I've met this person before

01:12:13

Speaker 1: and they are just, they are the savior to the world around them in that moment. They really, really are and it's so awesome when you, when you cross paths with someone like this particular joke Christy, thank you so much for that salute

01:12:27

Speaker 1: Christy. Thank you so much. I just have to also add, we oftentimes here lizzie post tear up during I was, I was trying not to this one got me because I mean joe is great, but the connection of joe to making you feel good about the community that you're

01:12:47

Speaker 1: like launching your Children into the little parent and me just had this moment of thinking about letting go of my kids and feeling like that was okay because the world was going to take care of them.

01:12:59

Speaker 1: Thank you Christy.

01:13:01

Speaker 1: Thank you all for listening and thank you to everyone who sent us something and everyone who supports us on patreon, please connect with us and share this show with friends, family and co workers. However you like to share podcasts, you can send us here, next question feedback or salute by email. The awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a message or text at 802 a five a kind. That's 802585463 on twitter. We are at Emily post on instagram, we are at Emily Post institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette and be Emily post institute, please consider becoming a sustaining member if only so that dan and I can do more happy dances,

01:13:47

Speaker 1: You can do this by visiting Patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette. You can also really help out the show by subscribing to the ads version of our show on Spotify or your favorite podcast app. And please do consider leaving us a review because it helps our show ranking, which helps more people find awesome etiquette. Our show was edited by chris, Albertine and assistant produced by Brigitte Dowd. Thanks, Kris and Kris and Brigitte.

01:14:16

Speaker 1: Mhm.