Episode 369 - Virtual, Not Public

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Speaker 1: maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social, could you see that's old fashioned,

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Speaker 1: watch how busy post and then post act as host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person, real friendliness.

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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to awesome etiquette where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. On today's show we take your questions on to help or not to help as a guest virtual, not meaning public multiple graduation parties and when to send a wedding gift for a delayed date. Unknown reception for awesome etiquette sustaining members. Our question of the week is about responding to sales pitches on linkedin

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Speaker 1: plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a post script with Michelle at your body on grief and planning, end of life celebrations. All that's coming up

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Speaker 1: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute. I'm lizzie Post and I'm dan post Senning because how's it going? Because it's good because we did something this week that we have never done that.

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Speaker 1: Thousands, millions of other people do all the time and it was, it was really kind of fun. I got very giddy. I don't know if it's just because like um well I used to be the youngest now I'm the second youngest in the family. We did a group post cousins

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Speaker 1: text message like everybody's on it. It's really cool. I'm so I don't know why I'm loving it. I'm loving it. Cousin Casey is coming to Vermont

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Speaker 1: and he very graciously wanted to figure out what we all might be comfortable with as a chance to, to see him. He's not usually in our state. And I just, I thought the way the whole thing unfolded was so cool. I could tell, I should explain to everyone that Casey put the

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Speaker 1: sort of a notice out on a general group text and lizzie post was the first person to respond and

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Speaker 1: the enthusiasm followed all. A large percentage of the Vermont cousins joined in over the next day, day and a half to this first time post family cousin thread.

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Speaker 1: But I felt like you were kind of maybe not organizing, but we're leading the way in the group thread. There were some real dedicated moments here. The message came in at midnight our time

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Speaker 2: and

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Speaker 1: so I knew a lot of people wouldn't respond. I had happened to see it nite owl and I remembered, okay, respond in the morning, but wait to respond until like 10 o'clock in the morning because cases in colorado. So two hour time difference, you don't want to wake them up then got to the end of the afternoon and still hadn't responded. I was like, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: Casey is sitting there with a really nice message with a rare message of, I'm coming to Vermont. I would love to see you all however safely. That makes sense.

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Speaker 1: And he hasn't gotten anything back yet and that's when I wanted to jump in with the enthusiasm and really be like,

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Speaker 2: yeah Casey

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Speaker 1: you're coming, we can't wait to see you in santa. Like this could be so cool. But he had also, he didn't have all the cousin phone numbers. So

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Speaker 1: we were able to then add some of the folks to the group message, which I had never done before and realized another etiquette point, the ones who were added couldn't see all the messages above. That explained what this group text that we've all never done before

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Speaker 1: was about. And so at some point I know I copy pasted Casey's original message in once we had all the cousins in the group and it was these little things of figuring out like a new space of operating with a little bit of technology and

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Speaker 1: I know most of our audience is old hat at this but like it was new and fun and it was cool seeing it all unfold and then anna jumped in and you've offered a place to like actually do a group gathering and it's been really fun. It was fun for me as well and

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Speaker 1: lizzie post, I could so feel your excitement. And I noticed in myself when I first read the message, the urge to call Casey back directly individually just to check on what time, you know, you put a date down. But what are you really thinking because I was thinking that I've got a centrally located house relatively near to where he's going to be, that there was a strong likelihood that if we did have a gathering, that it might be at our place. And I was thinking, oh, I'll get the details for that before. But then I was saying to myself, this is a group text, You probably do it there and then you get more input from everybody. Anyway. I appreciated you taking the lead, getting the ball rolling

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Speaker 1: and yeah, I think that's probably besides my fantasy football group may be the only text thread I've been on with more than a couple of people in it. It was really fun. I'm excited to see how the event is shaping a big thank you's to you and pooch for offering a place for everyone to be able to gather. But

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Speaker 1: it was, it was cool. It was cool to see it all come together. It was fun to all be connected. I'm hoping that I can utilize this group

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Speaker 1: at some other point in our year to be able to just like say hey and start sharing jokes or things like that. I think it would be a great way to keep us all connected. But it was, it was really fun. I'm really excited. The event will be the day before my birthday. So I feel like it's a big birthday present to get all the cousins together.

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Speaker 1: So kudos to Casey for reaching out,

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Speaker 1: not being afraid and doing it in a way that made us all feel comfortable. There were a couple. Is everybody vaccinated exchanges and things like that. So some of the etiquette that we've been talking about on the show, applying right here in our own little family. It was really great.

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Speaker 1: Well from the oldest cousin Casey to the youngest cousin lizzie. Good work. You got everybody involved. Well and speaking of getting people involved, I was going to say speaking of people getting involved, do you think we should involve ourselves with some listener questions? Let's do it. All right,

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Speaker 1: awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions. You can email them to awesome etiquette. Emily Post dot com. Leave a voicemail or a text message at 802858 kind That's 8028585463.

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Speaker 1: Or reach us on social media on twitter. We're at Emily post inst on instagram. We are at Emily Post institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media posts so that we know you want your question on the show.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Our first question this week asks to help or not to help

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Speaker 1: liane rights with my closest friends. I find myself cleaning up bits of their house when I can. These are two of my friends that I have a gary chapman. Love language of acts of service with now that I listened to your podcast? I have to check my manners with you.

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Speaker 1: Is it presumptive to think they want help sweeping or doing the dishes or wiping down an open counter.

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Speaker 1: I surely don't go further than that, never reorganizing their counters or sticking my nose in their business.

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Speaker 1: Is there a proper limit to how to help a friend keep their house tidy when I'm over? Or am I unknowingly insulting them?

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Speaker 1: They've never shown an issue with it, just a kind. Thank you. But I don't want to overstep with any new friends in the future.

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Speaker 1: Could you guide me on this? Leanne, Leanne. This is a great question and it's so funny. I find I get rejected on a lot of offers of help whenever I make the offer. But my instinct is that the best thing

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Speaker 1: for you to do with old friends and new friends alike is to make that offer to help 1st May I help with the dishes? You know, would you like some help sweeping up or I could sweep up while you do the dishes, you know, something like that,

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Speaker 1: especially with these very close friends who you're probably very comfortable in their homes. You all entertain around each other a lot.

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Speaker 1: I feel like these are the places where we either do a lot of helping or we get forgiven a lot of helping. You know what I mean dan. Like there are times where you know, you come over to even work at my house for the day and don't don't worry about the dishes, I'll take care of straightening up the living room,

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Speaker 1: but it's very easy and casual and I could see it going either way

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Speaker 1: with newer friends. I think you really want to be applying that ask first because they might have their own entertaining style. They might not feel comfortable having someone's wipe down their counters or they may feel that somehow if they say yes to it, they're not being a good host. And that's not true. You can always say yes to help that's offered.

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Speaker 1: You certainly can. And I will remind you about the exchange that you and I had on my last visit where I had finished the lovely espresso that you had made me. And as I was returning the cup to the sink, you said, oh no, don't worry about it, just leave it there. And I said no, no, no, I couldn't do that and I proceeded to wash it and leave it in the drying rack.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The overstep my hosting. Are you hearing this? Are you hearing this audience? I did. I I assumed we were in that hosting courtesy zone and it would actually be appreciated. I'm sure I guess I'm sharing the story because I like your spirit of, I'm sure it's okay. It sounds like these are friends that you know? Well I was thinking about how much I admire this. Very structured, thinking about a future relationship or future friendship or just an interest in investigating this action

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Speaker 1: absent of any sort of look

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Speaker 1: aside, look that said, maybe something wasn't right here. It really is the heart of good etiquette, that kind of self reflection and thinking

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Speaker 1: and it got me thinking about what are the guidelines for cleaning up in someone else's home. And I think there's something very natural

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Speaker 1: and important about cleaning up after yourself. And I think that happens very easily. For example, the cup that I have that's dirty because I had asked for a coffee or something like that, cleaning up after myself felt very normal to me.

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Speaker 1: I think that if you take it that next step and you're cleaning up essentially after someone else. If you're cleaning up something that was a mess or an untidiness that you didn't participate in creating. I was going to say like you were cleaning up my mess at my house. Yeah, that would have been weird. I think then you start to step into that. Maybe I'm making a comment about this isn't the way it should be.

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Speaker 1: And definitely I would take care with that. And I think that a little offer, like you just suggested you sample script out

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Speaker 1: makes a lot of sense and you might even be able to broaden your area of agency just a little bit. Oh, the kitchen's getting cleaned up. I could offer to wipe down counters or sweep the floor and that would be a really natural offer as you're cleaning up after dinner. But I wouldn't then get into offering to vacuum the living room or something else. You could go too far with this and I think it's worth worth keeping that in mind. I think so. I also do find it interesting how different friends, different relationships that are over can can change this answer that host might give. I used to get really

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Speaker 1: frustrated when my mother would would grab the broom when she just came over to drop something off for hang out for a minute. Or

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Speaker 1: maybe they were visiting me before they went over to do dinner with my sister and her kids a few doors down

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Speaker 1: and it just, it felt like such a classic mother daughter thing going on here, but it felt like such a comment on the cleanliness of my home for such a short drop by visit.

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Speaker 1: And that might also be where here I was telling, you don't worry about it with the coffee mug, you know, no big deal. I do a bunch of dishes before dinner or that's like one thing in the sink, it's not going to freak me out, you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: But I feel like if it's a longer visit where you've made an impact on the space like you were talking about, I want to clean up the things that I've interacted with or at least offer to help.

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Speaker 1: It can look like so many different things that maybe it is wiping down counters or maybe it is sweeping in the kitchen while someone else does some dishes

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Speaker 1: because there are some things that I feel like are really common offers of help when you're a guest at someone's house and maybe this is for not the best friends situation but other entertaining situations.

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Speaker 2: And then there are

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Speaker 1: some things where I feel like it would start to be

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Speaker 1: either

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Speaker 1: not that nice or polite of the host to request you to do it, but also that you don't need to make a suggestion or an offer for. And I'm thinking of things like

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Speaker 1: super easy, super

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Speaker 1: standard. I would say to offer to bring dishes in from a table, orders in from the living room into the kitchen to kind of help clear the space that has been entered. You've been entertaining putting away serving dishes, condiments, just helping out with that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 1: And I even think that an offer to help with the dishes so maybe you wash I dry or you know I wash you dry and put away that kind of thing can be really common but less common. I feel like our could I take the trash out for you? Let me sort the recycling

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Speaker 1: and even things like sweeping and I don't know, I'm very curious to hear your thoughts on wipe down the counter.

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Speaker 1: I feel like there, it's not that they're more involved or that they're harder task, but I feel like they are less commonly. Something that we would

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Speaker 1: except a guest say offering help with. That makes sense to me. The other one that I would add to the list of usual is pushing furniture back or putting away folding chairs or lawn furniture.

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Speaker 1: Um Again those things that you've all collectively interacted with, things that are maybe different than the normal or the usual in the house. So it would make sense that it would be cleaned up following a visit or following whatever whatever the event is. But I agree with you. It's the longer term maintenance of the house isn't what those people are therefore, so it doesn't feel like it's the purpose of the event or the exchange

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Speaker 1: leah, thank you for this question. It really got both of us thinking it sounds like you're an awesome guest and friend and I

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Speaker 1: I think I know someone else on this mic that wouldn't mind if her friends offered to help out more. I don't know what you mean. I tried to get you to not watch the coffee cup. You wouldn't let me liane thanks so much for the question. Yes, everywhere you go. People talk about thoughtfulness.

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Speaker 1: Well, just what does thoughtfulness means

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Speaker 1: to discover? Some

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Speaker 2: know how about

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Speaker 1: thoughtfulness? Let's follow jane proctor into her home. You know mama most likely be late, let's get separated. What do you say? Listen, if you peel the potatoes and set the table, I'll use the rest good deal.

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Speaker 1: Our next question is titled virtual. Doesn't mean public.

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Speaker 1: Hi lizzie and dan, thank you for your podcast. I always appreciate your bubbly exchanges. I have a once again covid related wedding etiquette question.

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Speaker 1: My question is regarding zoom wedding etiquette. My partner and I are getting married and are having a 15 person small in person distanced ceremony in my parents backyard before covid we were still planning a quite small event of about 30 people, basically immediate family and friends.

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Speaker 1: We are in introverted couple, not big on demonstrations and we highly value our privacy. For example, neither of us have social media

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Speaker 2: all that to

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Speaker 1: say. After. Covid. Our solution was to reduce to immediate family and include the other 15 people as part of a zoom ceremony.

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Speaker 1: My grandmother was part of this small group.

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Speaker 1: We shared the zoom password and unbeknownst to me, my grandmother shared the password with my uncle and his partner who decided to then invite my grandmother to their place as well as my cousin and his partner and kids for a viewing party on a big screen tv.

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Speaker 1: I learned all about it from my mother who said to just forget about it.

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Speaker 1: However, I'm very uncomfortable with this. I'm not close at all to these people and quite frankly do not enjoy their company at all in the case of my cousin, I haven't seen him in maybe 15 years and I've never met his partner nor his kids.

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Speaker 1: I feel like they infringed on our privacy to have an intimate moment.

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Speaker 1: I know my partner feels the same way and it seems even more unfair because he didn't get to invite his grandparents or his uncles or cousins because of Covid.

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Speaker 1: How should I deal with this? Should I just get over it and stop being a bridezilla, especially given that they will be online and we can just mute them.

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Speaker 1: It's not like we're paying for their meal or anything.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Gabrielle, Gabrielle, thank you for the question. And before we get started on an answer, I want to say congratulations. It is such an exciting time in life to be planning a wedding. And

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Speaker 1: I hope that this is the biggest problem that you face. And I say that because I think this is really unfortunate and

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Speaker 1: I think that it's a problem that you can manage and you can deal with. However unfair, I'm sure it feels and there is no question and I think we really should start our answer to this question by saying you have not been treated well, this is an unfortunate situation that your grandmother

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Speaker 1: should not have shared that link without your permission. And I can't imagine how surprising it must have been to hear from your mother about a viewing party that was being planned for your wedding, that you had no idea about that. You didn't know who was involved with and that you didn't have a lot of control over particularly because you didn't even know what was happening.

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Speaker 1: And

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Speaker 1: I would give myself

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Speaker 1: a lot of time and a lot of patients and room to feel whatever I needed to feel about that because that in the words of my cousin lizzie has a sense of fairness that I really appreciate. That is not fair. It's not fair.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't fair. This is your day and you really should get to be in control of, of who's witnessing it, who's being a part of it in this way. And this, this is one of the big downfalls of a link that someone can share is that and this kind of new idea of a zoom wedding,

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Speaker 1: it's just that you really shouldn't share it and we will do a better job of getting that message out from an etiquette standpoint for sure,

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Speaker 1: but dan, what do you think we can do? I mean there's really, there's the two options, right? You're either going to address it and stand up for the fact that that was not the plan and it's making you very uncomfortable or as far as our bride says, I need to accept it and move forward

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Speaker 1: and we can, you know, if we don't want to engage with the people on the, on the zoom call, that sort of thing. What do you what do you think about the options that were presented with their so limited? They really are. And it makes me want to consider an option to be okay. I like that. You got one.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about why first I prefer option

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Speaker 1: to option one, option B to option A And when I think about the original intent behind a small intimate ceremony to me, the privacy that's associated with that creates a very intimate feel. It creates a very safe space, a container for emotions. And

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Speaker 1: if I'm thinking about wanting to maintain that intent and honor that intent,

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Speaker 1: given the point that we're operating from now, I think that in some ways you get closer to that by accepting what's happened and I wouldn't say forget about it like your mother, but accepting it and moving forward as best you can, because I think that if you

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Speaker 1: disinvite people, if you tell your grandmother that it's not okay for her to do this, if

00:20:41

Speaker 1: you get the word

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Speaker 1: to the other family members that you'd rather, they didn't watch this

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Speaker 1: to me. That starts to introduce more, if not conflict, more friction around the ceremony and the event than the other option does and takes you further away from that original intent than you'd want to be.

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Speaker 1: My sense is that the advice is to do the thing you don't necessarily want to do. That isn't the thing you originally wanted because you end up with an event

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Speaker 1: that's closer in spirit to the event that you originally were planning and frankly leaves you interacting with the family members that you don't want to interact with less, right? The second you engage them to disinvite them,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about a lot more engagement than just letting them sit and watch while you bute them. Right. Exactly. It's why I really did say this feels so unfair, but I do think I'm with you there because the best way out is probably too

00:21:42

Speaker 1: recognize that it's happening and just move forward in the ways that you can best control the ceremony and reception that you'll be physically at

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Speaker 1: and not have to engage quite so much with that viewing party. Can I throw something out there though, because for

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Speaker 2: so

00:22:02

Speaker 1: my thought is that genie is out of the bottle, Pandora's box has been opened. If you go with the root dan and I are suggesting there's going to be this viewing party anyway,

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Speaker 1: we could maybe help out your partner in just saying, okay honey, you invite,

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Speaker 1: you know, a group of people that you might like to have and who could see this, the the aunts, the uncles, the cousins, the grandparents that way there is that sort of sense of balance for both partners who are getting married and that they,

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying they need a viewing party, but I do think that when you're put in this position where your fiance was like, oh man, I would have liked to have invited my people. I feel like you could choose to lean in further to this and then at least allow your partner to have that experience or option as well, lizzie. I had a very similar thoughts going to suggest the same thing. Okay, Sorry, I didn't mean to have it from you. No, no, no, no, no. I I think that a firm's for me that it's a good instinct. The other thought that I had was

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Speaker 1: if you know this is going to be happening, is there something that you could do for just you and your partner that maybe there's a part of the ceremony that you could reserve for just the two of you or just the two of you and the people that are there and maybe that happens before the cameras turned on or after the cameras turned off.

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Speaker 1: But it is your day and you are in control of it. And just because you've lost control of the distribution of the zoom link temporarily

00:23:38

Speaker 1: doesn't mean that you have to see control over everything. And if there's something about that moment, that's just for the two of you are just for the people that are there. I think it's okay to keep that and to find a way to honor that as well do that off camera sort of. Yeah, I like that idea. I like that idea.

00:23:58

Speaker 1: Gabrielle, we will offer. We will not just say we're giving you hugs, but if you wanted our hugs, we would give you big hugs on this one because it's, it's a really tough situation and it seems like you're trying to handle it with a lot of grace

00:24:12

Speaker 1: johnny has to make himself remember so his friends won't have to remind him all the time, then he'll start really being considerate of others.

00:24:21

Speaker 1: Our next question is titled, The more parties the better

00:24:25

Speaker 1: we have a 45 year old daughter who's getting a master's degree

00:24:29

Speaker 1: the same year. Her eldest daughter is graduating from high school.

00:24:33

Speaker 1: What we want to know is as parents, should we throw her a party regarding her graduation with her master's degree? Thank you, chuck and Debbie chuck and Debbie, I think you can guess from the way we've titled this question that we think the more parties, the more celebration, the better I say go for it. Maybe

00:24:51

Speaker 1: maybe because maybe they even do a joint party if both the honorees are okay with it. I was going to say we've had questions about whether it's okay to combine parties and people feel differently about it, but if people like the idea, it can be so much fun, it can be a great way to celebrate everyone and make it an even

00:25:10

Speaker 1: bigger better party Well, and how awesome that this is. Like mother daughter graduating at the same time, Your mom graduated with a doctorate in education.

00:25:19

Speaker 1: I forget how old she was at the time, but was it at all close to when either you or will, we're going through a graduation yourselves.

00:25:27

Speaker 1: It was right around the same time. Did you join party?

00:25:31

Speaker 1: No, we didn't. Taking me back. The person who was the most excited about that was Poppy, my mother's father, our grandfather and he was so proud of her. He kept telling her that she was the first person in the family that he knew of who had a doctoral level three

00:25:47

Speaker 1: and the fact that it was his daughter, I think just um uh made him really proud and as like an extended career degree, like she had already had a career and raised kids and things while she was like during this degree. It was, I thought it was, it was

00:26:03

Speaker 1: a moment that impressed upon me for sure that life is very long

00:26:08

Speaker 1: that you can do and change up and learn at all stages of life. It was, it was definitely something that made an impression on me, but this is just making me feel even more like chuck and Debbie should celebrate their daughter or should feel really confident if the daughter wants the celebration,

00:26:24

Speaker 1: throwing a party and going all out on it. If they want to keep it simple, that's the name of the game, offer it, encourage it, if you must accept the answer that you get, but it's a great idea, chuck and Debbie, thank you so much for the question right now. This is what we have to plan

00:26:41

Speaker 1: a guest list, invitations, refreshments and entertainment. We all enjoy being together. But is anyone that's out? You'll think so

00:26:51

Speaker 2: Well there for a guest

00:26:52

Speaker 1: list.

00:26:56

Speaker 1: Our next question is titled, can I just send a gift already?

00:27:00

Speaker 2: Hello.

00:27:01

Speaker 1: My nephew and his fiancee had to cancel their june wedding as well as a september wedding because of Covid

00:27:08

Speaker 1: when the june date was moved to september, I held off sending a gift and planned to bring it to them in september.

00:27:15

Speaker 1: Now there's no definite plan. Just an idea for a one year anniversary event to celebrate their nuptials.

00:27:22

Speaker 1: Is it appropriate for me to send a gift? Now I plan to send the money, should I send the amount I originally intended or maybe a little less? So I can also give them a gift next year at that party

00:27:35

Speaker 1: in case you need more context. My nephew lives in buffalo new york and I live in Hendersonville north Carolina. He is my sister's only child and despite the distance, I have remained close with my sister and her son. He is 43 years old but this is his first marriage. Thank you in advance for your advice, gratefully. Karen,

00:27:54

Speaker 1: Karen, thank you for the question and thank you for the details about your relationship to this nephew. It's so nice to hear about those family connections. It creates a sense of the closeness that you feel with this person, totally

00:28:07

Speaker 1: helps me to understand this desire to send a gift. And I love getting this question because so often wedding etiquette gift questions are about the obligation, the difficulty not knowing what to get, not wanting to get something feeling like you should. And

00:28:26

Speaker 1: so often the reality is what you're presenting to us, which is that that feeling of I've been invited to a wedding or even just learned about this important event in someone who I care about life

00:28:38

Speaker 1: and you want to give something you want to honor that you want to share your enthusiasm and excitement and you want to make that tangible. You want to give them something. And I just love that. I love the spirit behind it, because it reminds me of where so much of the advice that we give comes from

00:28:54

Speaker 1: and to that end, I say go for it. If you feel inspired to give someone a gift and you can think of it in your head as an engagement gift if you want. There are no rules that say, your wedding gift has to be directly tied to the wedding. But there is that nice category of engagement gift that many people have in their head that allows you to express that enthusiasm

00:29:16

Speaker 1: because I love your idea. I'm going to diverge a little bit. I'm going to suggest that you make it clear that this this check that you're planning on sending is actually the wedding gift whether or not you decide to use the, the amount that you have over the course of two gifts or whether your budget is going to go to just one gift for the whole idea of the event of getting married

00:29:42

Speaker 1: I think matters less to me and it's, it's more of a do I feel like I want to save some of my wedding gifting budget for the party that's going to happen in a year. That's undecided right now or do I just want to give it to them all one big shebang? Let them know that I've really been thinking of them them. Very happy for their nuptials

00:30:02

Speaker 1: either way is perfectly acceptable. And if you do send this check in its full amount as as kind of a big wedding gift. You don't technically have to get them anything at the follow up party. You have done your job, you're good haunting duties, you're good guesting duties, all of that

00:30:21

Speaker 1: in terms of this wedding and getting a gift.

00:30:24

Speaker 1: It doesn't stop you though from getting a gift for them or doing even just a really nice card and some flowers or something like that at that at that other event that hasn't been planned yet,

00:30:35

Speaker 1: whichever you end up doing. I would just make it very clear that this check is a wedding gift for them. This is in celebration of your wedding. I'm so happy for the two of you. Can't wait to celebrate in person one day, something like that with a note I think would be perfectly appropriate.

00:30:53

Speaker 1: Karen, we think it's so cool that you have remained so close with your sister and her son and big congratulations to him on his marriage.

00:31:05

Speaker 1: Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463.

00:31:18

Speaker 1: You can also reach us on social media on twitter. We are at Emily Post inst on instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette.

00:31:27

Speaker 1: Just remember use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the show

00:31:33

Speaker 1: double

00:31:44

Speaker 1: If you're enjoying awesome etiquette, please consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette.

00:31:53

Speaker 1: You'll get an ads free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content plus we know you'll feel great knowing that you helped keep awesome etiquette on the air and to those of you who are already sustaining members. Thank you so much for your support. We really appreciate it.

00:32:08

Speaker 1: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer in the topics we cover today. We have feedback from a Minnesota listener.

00:32:17

Speaker 2: Hello,

00:32:18

Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of your podcast and look forward to listening Each week. Usually as I'm getting outside for my daily walk.

00:32:25

Speaker 1: I'd like to share a comment on the recent bonus question from episode 3 23 regarding pronouncing people's names correctly. I couldn't agree more that it's essential to make the effort to do so. And one trick I've found helpful is that if I've come across the name, I'm worried that I'll mispronounce

00:32:44

Speaker 1: I write it down phonetically as soon as possible. Then when I have some time I can practice it as needed with the extra help of the phonetic prompts.

00:32:55

Speaker 1: Thanks for tackling such a wonderful variety of questions with wit, grace, kindness, and humor. All the best Minnesota listener.

00:33:01

Speaker 1: Thank you for the feedback Minnesota listener. That is a great tip I'm going to do to my toolbox. Exactly, exactly. And we got this from a listener about episode 316 and how to un invite your wedding guests.

00:33:16

Speaker 1: Hi, I was just listening to your advice to the person who received the wedding uninvited. I'm getting married in two weeks and my fiance and I faced the difficult decision over the summer to un invite almost all of our guests 100 down to 25. Our save the dates had already got out, but luckily not the invitations themselves.

00:33:36

Speaker 1: We used this language

00:33:38

Speaker 1: front of card.

00:33:39

Speaker 1: We still do

00:33:41

Speaker 1: thought thought thought,

00:33:42

Speaker 1: but

00:33:43

Speaker 1: back of the card

00:33:45

Speaker 1: in order to keep our guests healthy and safe. We have decided to cancel our wedding day. We are still getting married in a private ceremony and hope to celebrate with you next year. Much love our names.

00:33:57

Speaker 1: Those cards went out to the people we had to un invite and our actual invitations went out to the remaining guests. We received no negative feedback to this wording at least to our faces. When people reached out to us, we told them that we only invited our parents, siblings and a bridal party and they understood

00:34:14

Speaker 1: we're planning on doing a wedding tour next year to visit the people we couldn't see in person this year.

00:34:20

Speaker 1: We have family and friends spread out across the country.

00:34:24

Speaker 1: I also took down all the information on our wedding website so people didn't feel confused or left out

00:34:30

Speaker 1: for guests who do receive a card like this. I would encourage them to treat the couple kindly regardless of any awkward wording.

00:34:37

Speaker 1: Not being able to have all my friends and family at my wedding really does hurt and I'm sure any couple faced with this would appreciate a sympathetic text or call to say. I understand and I'm sorry, I can't wait to see you when it's safer.

00:34:50

Speaker 1: Thanks love the show Nina thank you so much for the feedback. It is really, really hard to have to make these decisions. I know a lot of my friends who were brides who had to un invite a lot of guests. They felt really, really badly about it and it didn't have the same flavor that they wanted their wedding to have.

00:35:09

Speaker 1: So I think it's a really wonderful reminder to respond to such an announcement with that. I understand and I'm so sorry you guys had to make that decision because it is, it is a pretty tough one. I also just have to say that I love your idea of a wedding tour.

00:35:24

Speaker 1: Kind of sounds like someone's parents, dan's parents did of travel, what do they call it? A traveling reception? A traveling honeymoon. What was traveling, traveling elopement? Very cool. It's very cool. We hope you have a lot of fun on your wedding tour next year and that you're able to connect with all these wonderful people and celebrate your marriage.

00:35:47

Speaker 1: Thank you for the feedback

00:35:51

Speaker 1: and thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please do keep them coming. You can send your next piece of feedback or update to awesome etiquette Emily Post dot com. You can also leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463

00:36:11

Speaker 1: mm.

00:36:15

Speaker 1: It's time for our post script segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette and today we're going to hear part one of a series of interviews lizzie did with Michelle achieve body an end of life specialist and funeral director here in Vermont

00:36:28

Speaker 1: Michelle was interviewed for the 20th edition of Emily Post etiquette and had such a great perspective on grief and grieving that we wanted her to share her knowledge with the awesome etiquette audience. This first interview with Michelle focuses on why death and planning services to celebrate life are hard and how manners can help

00:36:46

Speaker 1: awesome etiquette audience. I am truly thrilled to be doing this interview today with the wonderful Michelle achy body

00:36:55

Speaker 1: who is an end of life specialist and Michelle. I'm so grateful that you're here with us on the podcast because I've sort of told our audience about you a couple of times over the past year while I was writing the 20th edition,

00:37:09

Speaker 1: you were so helpful and you painted such a great picture of how to handle and process

00:37:19

Speaker 1: and manage

00:37:21

Speaker 2: end of

00:37:22

Speaker 1: life experiences for folks, whether you're an actual planner and the person doing it or whether you are someone who is trying to attend one of these events to engage with grief and mourning. I thought that your advice just rank so universal in ways that I think are hard hard to find sometimes for us.

00:37:43

Speaker 1: So I was very excited that you wanted to come on the podcast and talk about, talk about some of the things we discussed in the book together. So thank you so much for being

00:37:51

Speaker 2: here. It is a pleasure to be here and it's such an honor to talk about this stuff in my work with end of life. It's just something that

00:38:00

Speaker 2: I am really comfortable talking about and I'm constantly getting reminders that most people aren't.

00:38:05

Speaker 2: So I'm always happy to have a platform to talk about maybe why that is and how we can get a little bit better about talking about

00:38:12

Speaker 2: this universal human experience of death and dying.

00:38:16

Speaker 1: Why is it that talking about death and end of life celebrations

00:38:21

Speaker 1: feels so difficult or so foreign. I know for me I often when I hear the sad news, I want to reach out but I hesitate even being someone who gives out advice that yes, you should reach out during these times.

00:38:37

Speaker 1: What is it about the whole topic that seems sort of fraught and distant to us?

00:38:42

Speaker 2: I think it's a culmination of things that kind of depends on who we are in our society. But I think in general american society

00:38:49

Speaker 2: really has moved away. Like in terms of our culture and values from aging, Death and dying being normal things that happen in our lifetime. And so I think that for a lot of people,

00:39:01

Speaker 2: there's just this distance from death for the most people in, you know, in America, we don't really live within extended family units anymore. So we're not used to seeing, you know, close relatives,

00:39:14

Speaker 2: aging while we go through that process and that's a privilege, right? If we get to see somebody die at the end of a long and full life. That that's a privilege

00:39:21

Speaker 1: too.

00:39:22

Speaker 2: For many americans, that's a reality that they expect death may be a little bit closer. You know, whether it's going to be as a result of just other things going on, poor health care, lack of access to healthcare or just there's many reasons that people die. But I think it's never comfortable to confront and

00:39:39

Speaker 2: because of its unfamiliarity. And I think one thing is we all do die,

00:39:43

Speaker 2: but very few of us have any experience with somebody coming back and saying this is what it's like. And then so we don't we don't know right? We know that it's coming. We don't like to think about it because it's just great unknown and we're just really cut off from how do we

00:39:59

Speaker 2: know what's right?

00:40:00

Speaker 2: And when we don't know what's right, right? This is the discomfort, We don't want to do the wrong thing. And this is the other thing that that I think is a big thing in mainstream american culture right now, us american culture is getting it right and and being right all the time and saying it right. And I think that's a really noble thing. It's a wonderful thing to strive for. But it shouldn't, like you said, it shouldn't stop you from saying anything. It's better to show up and be present.

00:40:22

Speaker 2: But it's hard to know how to show up how to be present what it is to say what it is that you're even feeling. Is it normal to want to reach out to somebody? Is it normal to have feelings when somebody dies in my work as a funeral director. I've worked with people that when they come in and it's there, you know, there

00:40:40

Speaker 2: well past middle age and their parents have died and it's the first death that they've really ever experienced in their life because they were cut off from their extended families. They didn't go through it with

00:40:49

Speaker 2: grandparents or great aunts and great uncles or cousins or you know, and again, you know, so it's just sort of this very interesting thing that

00:40:57

Speaker 2: it's a universal experience that we're somehow so cut off from that we just don't know what to do. And so I think that it becomes foreign and then for cultures or people in America that I think have a closer relationship with death either by necessity or because that's still a part of their cultural tradition,

00:41:14

Speaker 2: they have traditions that can seem foreign and strange and again, that need to get it right kicks in, you know, and then it's it's difficult to engage with something that you're completely unfamiliar with. I think for the most people in the US we have some familiarity with what it might need to show up to a church and go through like a church service in a funeral and there's a set thing, you know, you know, when to show up, you kind of know what to say. There's some like prompts and stuff,

00:41:40

Speaker 2: but like for a lot of other

00:41:43

Speaker 2: experiences or cultural practices around death, the majority of white americans are probably not going to be familiar with it and then that's going to kick in and like, you know, what do I wear, What do I say? Is it appropriate for me to be here and all of these things kind of fall apart and then again, you know, it's like we're just cut off from

00:42:00

Speaker 2: that feeling of knowing what to do and feeling confident and then therefore doing something. I think that's a lot of it.

00:42:06

Speaker 1: I think that's where we see the etiquette come in so often is in trying to give people the confidence to engage during times of grief and mourning and that engagement can come in so many different ways. It might be like you said, attending that kind of

00:42:22

Speaker 1: classic imagery that a lot of people have in their brains of some type of service, whether it be a quieter service or you know, a true celebration. I think people have those kind of two images at least in mind and that's about

00:42:39

Speaker 2: it.

00:42:40

Speaker 2: And

00:42:40

Speaker 1: yet there are so many

00:42:43

Speaker 1: ways to engage times that you can engage with someone. I think that often we feel that if we don't extend our condolences

00:42:53

Speaker 1: like within a month of having occurred that we just shouldn't engage at all. And I think part of what we try to do is encourage people that it's never too late if you haven't sent the note yet

00:43:04

Speaker 1: and you run into the person at the grocery store, it's of course probably going to be the first thing out of your mouth is it's so good to see you, but I was so sorry to hear about your news,

00:43:14

Speaker 1: but you mentioned the confidence and that's what I think we really wanted to provide, at least in the chapter we were working with you on was the confidence to reach out to know what kind of outreach feels good

00:43:27

Speaker 2: and to

00:43:28

Speaker 1: be willing to ask questions because I think you're right, there are so many types of services and types of mourning

00:43:34

Speaker 1: that we aren't familiar with that can be both easy and involved ways to participate

00:43:42

Speaker 1: to me. It was so good to hear you talk about all of the different types of services and things that people can engage with or that they might choose to do.

00:43:52

Speaker 1: I don't know if you want to share just a couple of them just to start familiarizing our audience, you know, and and our audience is wonderfully diverse and brought in a lot of ways. And so they might pop in with feedback on some of their own experiences and traditions which were always really, really grateful for. But what are some of the most common

00:44:12

Speaker 1: ones that you see pop up?

00:44:14

Speaker 2: It's interesting because this is one of these things were right now in the work that I do, the way that I sort of put myself in in the world is that I don't see as much of the sort of the traditional structured stuff. There's so many examples to think of. So it's hard to think of like what's most common. I think I can,

00:44:30

Speaker 2: I can go with the ones that have really stood out to me. And I think one thing just to like to start is that one thing I found really frustrating when I was like, just in general in training, whether it was to be the people at end of life as a funeral director as a, as a death doula as a home funeral guide

00:44:45

Speaker 2: was this idea that somehow you had to come in with a preconceived notion of what something was. And I've always learned that it's just better to ask

00:44:52

Speaker 2: and and how you ask makes all the difference if you're asking, a genuine openness and curiosity, you know, can you tell me

00:44:58

Speaker 2: what is the right, you know, what should I wear? You know, when should I come? Should I bring food? You know, things like that, like when they're coming from a genuine place of, I, you know, I really want to know because I'm here for you and I want to support you there almost always is well received.

00:45:12

Speaker 2: And then of course you have to remember that people are also grieving and so sometimes if something isn't well received, it's not because you did something wrong. It's just because grief takes up so much energy.

00:45:22

Speaker 2: So with that kind of in mind I think a really beautiful thing that I've witnessed it is I think becoming more common and I hope to see more common

00:45:30

Speaker 2: and is sort of in light of covid too. So when in Vermont all last year we had huge restrictions on gathering size. Once it became clear that social spread was was a thing.

00:45:40

Speaker 2: And this is a big deal for funerals because generally we want lots and lots of people to show up at the funeral and there's many reasons why this is the positive experience for people that are mourning to get all this feedback. But

00:45:51

Speaker 2: so what happens when at one point it was it was only 10 people could gather and so there was somebody that I was working with and

00:46:00

Speaker 2: their husband died and it was, it was expected. But kind of the way that they had thought about how his life would be celebrated and honored was radically changed because you could only get 10 people together.

00:46:13

Speaker 2: So she chose something that is sometimes called green burial. Natural burial.

00:46:17

Speaker 2: And what was really beautiful about this is that it was a great site service who were in the cemetery

00:46:22

Speaker 2: and she chose 10 people that could kind of highlight different areas of what was needed for her in that service. So she was really clear about what she needed to get from the service, but also could really honor her husband's life and celebrate who he was in the community so that there was this balance between

00:46:40

Speaker 2: her need to be acknowledged as a spouse and to hear certain things said

00:46:44

Speaker 2: and to hear right certain things and be able to kind of

00:46:48

Speaker 2: offer a farewell at the graveside in a meaningful way, but also to have him recognized in all of the different capacities that he had existed. And so she she really put a lot of intentionality into this guest list and it was just this beautiful

00:47:01

Speaker 2: service and nobody had been to a green burial before. So you know what you wear to the cemetery and all of this stuff that kind of comes up again with the unfamiliar. But everybody just showed up and they showed up with so much love and wanting to do this right, to honor both him and to support her

00:47:19

Speaker 2: that it just came together in this really beautiful way. And one thing that, I mean, I think we talked about when we were talking about the book is there's always room for joy and so there was just laughter in the moments where it was kinda like, oh wait, who's next? Like in my next And you

00:47:33

Speaker 1: know like and there's

00:47:35

Speaker 2: little these little moments of like where there was sort of this laughter and fun, we're supporting somebody navigating something so unfamiliar at a time when you know everybody's so off center because they've lost somebody that they care deeply about

00:47:46

Speaker 2: and this really beautiful thing came together um that way and there's no reason when we're not living in fear of of a pandemic when we're not making sensible steps to avoid getting sick with something that a green burial has to only be limited to 10 people. But what I really liked about that that was different for me

00:48:05

Speaker 2: was the intentionality that went into

00:48:07

Speaker 2: the guest list and one of things that are honored is when somebody dies right? I mean a whole community can can mourn when somebody dies right? There's there's their personal their private life with their family and their close circle of loved ones and then there's who they are in their community. And so and that's something that is also hard,

00:48:26

Speaker 2: you know maybe you know somebody and passing because they're on the select board or you know or you know there

00:48:32

Speaker 2: you know your regular person when you go to the grocery store and they check you out every time right? Like and it's just sort of like we know these people in these different ways and it's always appropriate to mourn but we also sort of have this missing piece of community mourning and how to come together as a community and mourn

00:48:48

Speaker 2: again sort of in mainstream us american culture that that's sort of a foreign thing. So I, I really loved that

00:48:55

Speaker 2: and I think another example that also came up for me was a blending of

00:49:00

Speaker 1: traditions

00:49:01

Speaker 2: and so as a family where the person that died was jewish sort of more in culture than restrict practice, but as they were dying found their faith really comforting

00:49:11

Speaker 2: and sort of started to lean deeper into some of the rituals and traditions

00:49:16

Speaker 2: from Judaism and part of that also was acknowledging that

00:49:20

Speaker 2: they were going to die and they would have a body and they were also very taken by the jewish death care rituals or there's a ritual bathing and the body is shrouded and the burial takes place is close to within the same day period as possible.

00:49:34

Speaker 2: And it was just very interesting to see

00:49:38

Speaker 2: the rest of this person's family who didn't necessarily engage with Judaism in the same way,

00:49:44

Speaker 2: make space for that.

00:49:46

Speaker 1: Yeah,

00:49:47

Speaker 2: and begin to figure out, okay, how do I fit in? How do I honor? Like, because it kind of did seem to like, I think it came out of kind of left field for them was like, oh, like now you're,

00:49:56

Speaker 2: you know, you're, you're really strong in your faith identity and okay, and it was just interesting to see that come together in a again in a way where

00:50:06

Speaker 2: they honored everything that he was really specific about in terms of what they needed to happen from the faith tradition perspective, the ritual bathing, the timing was less important, but there were certain prayers that should be said, certain things that would follow the burial in terms of, you know, coming together, there's a period of mourning that's open to the community

00:50:25

Speaker 2: and then there were bits that

00:50:27

Speaker 2: they kind of were able to bring in, they had things that they wanted to do that weren't in line with the, with the strict faith tradition pieces and they were able to do it all in this way that I think was really beautiful and meaningful. So that was just, those are just two examples that really stood out to me and I think are becoming more common as

00:50:45

Speaker 2: I think some people are beginning to either

00:50:48

Speaker 2: rediscover their cultural history or background and practices and dying does change a lot of things and perspectives and so certain things are going to see more important towards the end of life

00:50:58

Speaker 2: and also that we're exposed now to so many, we have the opportunity to be exposed to so many different cultures and experiences and traditions and we bring those together when we create family. And so I think that that's something where there's really going to be a lot of growth where we're balancing all of these different

00:51:16

Speaker 2: things that come in from different cultural or traditions or things that

00:51:20

Speaker 2: have just grown out of our own lived experience and it's true in death and dying and funeral service as well. So those are the two things that really stand

00:51:29

Speaker 1: started to

00:51:30

Speaker 2: me. Yeah,

00:51:31

Speaker 1: I think one of the things that I really appreciated in our conversation was how much you were able to emphasis that

00:51:40

Speaker 1: this grieving process is yes, you want to follow any directives of the person who is deceased. But so much of the actual celebration is for the people grieving,

00:51:52

Speaker 1: but at the same time weaving in things that make sense to the people who are grieving and processing this death that was really illuminating. For me. It was a big perspective shift

00:52:06

Speaker 1: and I think it's it's really illustrated in the story you talked about with the green burial and the woman who said, you know, I think the traditional thought would be or even the very natural first thought would be okay. People who were the closest to my husband, you know, in my family first,

00:52:24

Speaker 1: you know, beyond that, don't worry about it. And

00:52:27

Speaker 1: and I like how you pose that and worked with her so that her grief was a part of that and she was going to get out of out of the experience, what she also needed, I find that really impressive and different. I don't think it's something people typically think about. But when you've gone through

00:52:43

Speaker 1: planning a service of some kind, I think you do experience that there's this constant give and take between. Am I doing it for them? Are we doing it for me, is it okay? Is it okay? And I felt like for me, you put a lot of permission and confidence into the idea that the people who are really

00:53:00

Speaker 1: close to this person mourning this loss and planning this service

00:53:04

Speaker 1: really need to be a part of it if they want to be, you know, because there's, there's that too, so not

00:53:10

Speaker 2: wanting is a choice.

00:53:12

Speaker 1: Um and and that they truly are a part of it, that it's not a selfish thing for them to want to experience certain things in certain ways about about this. It was that was that was like a big aha moment for me.

00:53:25

Speaker 1: I want to move us into sort of a different topic now

00:53:28

Speaker 2: and

00:53:29

Speaker 1: it's more about what we actually ended up putting into the book, which was the idea of how can manners help during this time. You experience this all through a planning perspective and as a guide to folks,

00:53:42

Speaker 1: what do you see as as some of the manners that can really help people engage? Well feel like they're heard handle this difficult time Well,

00:53:51

Speaker 2: I mean, I think the biggest thing is coming to things with curiosity and compassion and again, this is really hard

00:53:58

Speaker 2: um when people are grieving. So I mean always a plug for trying to work with the people that you love and are going to care about when they die, you know ahead of time to get them to talk about. So you can have a chance to talk about this when you're not in the moment, but you know, so advanced directives should include funeral plans and I think we'll talk more about that.

00:54:15

Speaker 2: So in particular though, but just knowing that it's okay to ask, but you, it really does have to come from a place of like I want to know, not because I'm going to ask because then I'm gonna want to contradict what it is that you're saying, you know, a

00:54:28

Speaker 1: firm that I'm right, like something like that. Yeah.

00:54:32

Speaker 2: So I think that that's the kind of the first big kind of manners

00:54:34

Speaker 2: piece, right, Is that it is absolutely okay to ask, but you know, really

00:54:38

Speaker 2: only ask what, you know, what you're interested in learning.

00:54:41

Speaker 2: The flip side of that is to recognize if somebody is asking you something that they really do want to know. Um, and and that it's, you know, and to maybe take a breath in and for somebody that's deep in the morning, you know, to just recognize that

00:54:54

Speaker 2: it might not be familiar to them and they're asking from a place of love and and really wanting to be there for you and, and, and you know, and maybe if that particular person that's asked doesn't have the energy for it to know that there's someone that you can say, hey, you know, like I can't answer your question right now, but you know, if you talk to, you know, this person.

00:55:09

Speaker 2: So I think that the asking, the curiosity, the willingness to engage and show up and be present. Like those are kind of like just the cornerstones of it. And I think that it's also this managing

00:55:22

Speaker 2: everybody's expectations and wants and needs. And for me, I talk a lot about, you know, just saying funerals are for the living. Um, and you know, what, what does that mean? Right. And it means that that the people that are left behind are going to have needs as Mourners and one of those things is to be seen and held as valid in the ways that you're feeling

00:55:40

Speaker 2: and those are really gonna be distinct to each individual. They might be similar within a group of individuals, but they might not all be the same. And so what we're trying to do with some sort of funeral or memorial service is to really

00:55:53

Speaker 2: accommodate as many of those as possible but recognize that maybe it's not going to fit into the exact service and it's not a dismissal are what you feel right or what your needs are,

00:56:04

Speaker 2: but that it might need to be a separate thing and or something that maybe even that you have to do on, on your own. Yeah.

00:56:13

Speaker 1: That sorry, what you were just saying reminds me of a story you and I recently talked about where our family friend lost his brother and the family was working on the obituary together. So he was working with his siblings and and the deceased girlfriend, I believe

00:56:31

Speaker 1: on what to write. And I think it was the obituary and our family friend is is incredibly excellent writer. Like he's very, very good writer and he was getting frustrated by the technicalities, like his editor voice was turned on. And when he found himself getting really heated about a particular, you know, use of word, you know, worded or something like that,

00:56:55

Speaker 1: he realized very quickly that this didn't matter that he could back out

00:57:01

Speaker 1: that grammar wasn't so particular to his brother that he was standing up for something incredible and that

00:57:08

Speaker 1: it was probably more important for the deceased girlfriend to be driving the force of what this was going to sound like as she was the closest to him at this point in his life. And he recognized that he could do other things to really feel like he was participating. I think, you know, he ended up singing at the service and that was really meaningful. But it was that ability in a really difficult moment

00:57:33

Speaker 1: to take the breath like you said, and to think about

00:57:37

Speaker 1: what do I need to get out of this in what ways am I like beyond this? Could I honor the deceased and my connection to them? And I think that that was for me, it was like seeing a gold star etiquette moment or like you're hearing about a gold star to get moment happened? Um, but it's, it's just, as you said, it's, it's realizing that there are many ways to mourn. There are many ways to fit into this space

00:58:05

Speaker 1: and in terms of manners helping you now, some of your best communication skills, your best patients, your broadest views and most open mind are probably your best etiquette tools at this particular point in time.

00:58:20

Speaker 2: And I think it's kind of that idea of, you know,

00:58:23

Speaker 2: looking at and realizing that everybody is struggling.

00:58:27

Speaker 2: Um, you know, and that helps I think

00:58:30

Speaker 2: allow people to tap into those reserves of

00:58:34

Speaker 2: compassion and, and then making space for other things to come up or to take that breath to step back and you know, and to let a particular thing go and then look at what else do I have to offer?

00:58:45

Speaker 2: And I think that, you know, what something that makes this so much easier for people is to understand that it is hard

00:58:52

Speaker 2: and I think this goes back a little bit too like why are people hesitant to engage? It's also hard to know who to ask, right? If you're trying to figure out how to balance all of these different people, right? There's not like

00:59:03

Speaker 1: a

00:59:04

Speaker 2: an on bud for obituary writing. Uh, it's an interesting thing of figuring out what it is that you need, what is it that you're really asking and then who maybe is best suited to, to get an answer that you need

00:59:16

Speaker 2: and you know, so maybe it's something where you might want to sit down with, you know, if you have a chaplain or a faith person or your funeral director or a really good friend that is just gonna listen and hold space for you to kind of talk through and then figure it out and then kind of let it go right. Like that can be really valid

00:59:33

Speaker 2: and to recognize that like funeral directors like to like to pretend they know everything and that they don't. And so that when if you, if you ask

00:59:41

Speaker 2: for advice from your family doctor and it feels incomplete or it doesn't feel good to that answer that it's okay to ask somebody else and to kind of look around and again, it comes from being willing to explore your own needs. What is it that you're really asking for? I think it's really important to try and get in touch with that as much as possible. It's not easy.

00:59:59

Speaker 2: You know, it's one of the things that's simple to say and hard to do

01:00:01

Speaker 2: and yeah, and sort of figure out who can hold space for, for my figuring this out and then who might I go to to get answers and to recognize that again, there's so many people that could potentially have feedback that's going to be helpful to you and that you don't just have to stick with the funeral director or the

01:00:17

Speaker 2: priest or the minister, you know, whoever, you know, whoever it is or you know, or the person organizing things um that you know, it's okay to get help from other spaces,

01:00:26

Speaker 1: Michelle, I could, I could talk to you for forever about this topic, but I know that we have other segments that we want to get to together. Do you have sort of an overarching closing thought? I know today was kind of a broad conversation about grief

01:00:42

Speaker 1: in general and how manners can help. But do you have any kind of big thoughts for people who might be experiencing these types of hard times? I mean,

01:00:50

Speaker 2: I think the really important thing to recognize is that

01:00:54

Speaker 2: grief is a lifelong experience once, once you you sort of start, it's going to be a part of who you are and one of the big needs of Mourners is to

01:01:04

Speaker 1: always figure out

01:01:05

Speaker 2: how to continue. Um when somebody that you care about is no longer doesn't exist in a physical way

01:01:12

Speaker 2: anymore

01:01:13

Speaker 2: and you basically have to construct a whole new reality for yourself in a way. And that is something that it really is, sometimes it's easy and sometimes it's hard and the littlest things can set you way way back. Um right, so there's this idea that grief comes in waves. And so I think that there's

01:01:31

Speaker 2: there's two things that come out of that one is that it's really important to have compassion

01:01:35

Speaker 2: for yourself and to recognize that like for some reason loading the dishwasher one night and just gonna like set you off down something

01:01:43

Speaker 1: and

01:01:44

Speaker 2: you know, and, and it's just and and all that grief is going to come rushing back. There's no right or wrong way to do grief. You just have to do it

01:01:53

Speaker 2: and live through it and you learn to carry it. Um, and I speak as somebody that is, you know, struggling with that in many different ways in my own life. And how do, how do I carry grief for people forward?

01:02:02

Speaker 2: But you know, you learn and, and then you relearn and you relearn again. And the second point for that is that we talked a lot today about funeral and memorial services and that's just one point

01:02:12

Speaker 2: in time. And it's often closest to the desk. So sometimes we feel like it's the most important time, but to recognize that anniversaries are gonna come up. So anniversaries of somebody's death or maybe an anniversary of an important milestone in their life, you know, when, when Children die in their lives are cut short,

01:02:29

Speaker 2: it can be really important to recognize that, you know, they would have started kindergarten today or you know, or they would have been graduating

01:02:35

Speaker 1: from high school. Um,

01:02:37

Speaker 2: and to, and to create or be we willing to maybe not full on create ritual or ceremony, but to create space for feelings to come up. And I feel like it's really valid when things come up,

01:02:50

Speaker 2: you know, even 2030 40 years later that it's okay and it's okay to want to honor something

01:02:57

Speaker 2: to come back to remembering the person honoring the life and and being seen and held as a mourner is not something that needs to happen within three days of somebody dying again.

01:03:07

Speaker 1: That this is yeah,

01:03:09

Speaker 2: it's a part of your life long experience with, with grief and it is absolutely normal and okay to to want to continue and to have

01:03:17

Speaker 2: that valued and held and seen

01:03:20

Speaker 2: no matter how far out you are from the death,

01:03:23

Speaker 1: Michelle thank you so much for that and thank you for being here. Today. I'm looking forward to our next segment together where we're going to get into more of the nitty gritty of where you need to start as the person who is planning an end of life service for someone.

01:03:38

Speaker 1: But I want to thank you again so much for your time. I really appreciate it

01:03:42

Speaker 2: and thank you for the opportunity and I hope that it helps. You know, people feel a little bit more comfortable thinking about and engaging with death and dying. You know, just hear it discussed openly and I hope that people have conversations about this and I can't wait to see what people say in the comments. I'm always

01:03:56

Speaker 1: learning. Thank you so much.

01:03:59

Speaker 1: Thank you so much for bringing us that interview with Michelle. I can't wait to hear the rest of this series on future post scripts. My pleasure. Thanks dan. I'm really excited to

01:04:10

Speaker 1: we like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world and that can come in so many forms. Today we have a salute from Gonzalo in Argentina. This salute came via instagram.

01:04:25

Speaker 1: Hello lizzie and dan, I hope you're both. Well I have a salute. I'd love to share. My salute is to Gloria, the woman who takes care of my grandma,

01:04:34

Speaker 1: my grandmother is 90 years old and needs a lot of help with her meals, cleaning hygiene and probably most important of all keeping her company.

01:04:43

Speaker 1: Most of the family, me included is living in a different city. So for us it's not easy to visit frequently, especially during the pandemic,

01:04:51

Speaker 1: but here's when Gloria's magic comes into play,

01:04:55

Speaker 1: she makes sure my grandma is healthy and happy every day. Of course it's her job. But she does everything in such a sweet way. Someone would think she has always been part of the family

01:05:05

Speaker 1: when my sister or me visit, I can always feel Gloria being happy just because my grandma is happy to see us. I truly can't be thankful enough, cheers from Argentina Gonzalo Gonzalo, that is such a fabulous salute, Thank you so much.

01:05:22

Speaker 1: You can really tell when someone cares and when that cares for someone important to you. It is a special, special thing.

01:05:29

Speaker 1: Thank you for this salute. Thank you for listening and thank you to everyone who sent us something and everyone who supports us on Patreon. Please connect with us and share this show with your friends, family and co workers. However you love to share podcasts, you can send us your next question, piece of feedback or salute by email. The awesome etiquette Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463 on twitter. We are at Emily post inst on instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette and the Emily Post Institute, please consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette.

01:06:16

Speaker 1: You can also subscribe to the ads version of our show on Spotify or your favorite podcast app and please consider leaving us a review because it helps our show ranking, which helps more people find awesome.

01:06:28

Speaker 1: Our show is edited by Kris Albertine and assistant produced by Bridget Dowd. Thanks chris and Bridges and Bridget

01:06:46

Speaker 1: two.

01:06:47

Speaker 1: Mhm