Episode 371 - Uninvited Infant

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Speaker 1: maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social goodness. See it's old fashioned.

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Speaker 1: Watch how busy post and dan post center act as host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person, real friendliness. Hello and welcome to awesome etiquette where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. On today's show, we take your questions on donations. You don't want to make

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Speaker 1: a non binary honorific when to comment on weight loss and bringing an uninvited infant to an adults only wedding for awesome etiquette sustaining members. Our question of the week is about how to refuse a gift kindly plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a post script with Michelle achieve body on the first steps towards making plans for a funeral service or memorial celebration. All that's coming up

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Speaker 1: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute. I'm dan post Senning and I'm lizzie post and we just mix that up for the first time in 100 episodes. I'm curious if anybody caught it or if it if it psyched them out at all. Well, we kind of gave away the game now,

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Speaker 1: but I'll tell you didn't feel strange to me. I think we could, we could do it. You think we could do it

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Speaker 1: in the interest of

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Speaker 1: true equality in terms of treatment. I think that we should switch it every time a different one of us starts first different one of us should finish. Ladies and gentlemen. That is an oldest being confused at having been second for what? 371 episodes? I don't know when we adopted this convention, but we did. We just take 3 71. We kept sticking with it. We're like, it's just written that way. We'll just read it that way. So we just did

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Speaker 1: no primary reason.

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Speaker 1: But I like it. I like it. Let's move forward with this new format. Whoever starts the next person pops in. I dig it. I dig it. I'm not scared of change. I can do this. Yeah. We're confident young individuals. Speaking of young. Before we get into this show, I have to acknowledge as we record a couple of weeks ahead

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Speaker 1: that when the show airs, it's your birthday. Happy birthday way early. Thank you so much. I love my birthday. So I'll take birthday wishes early. Thanks because I appreciate it

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Speaker 1: for those counting. This is 39 I will debate about whether or not I'll have multiple 39th birthdays, but I think I'm pretty okay with aging. Oh, no way. You're so close to the good one.

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Speaker 1: Finally get some respect. I know maybe this is the last year. I can call myself young, know you're always young when your when your business partner is older than you. Right, Right. I

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Speaker 1: because what's been going? I mean don't get me wrong, I do love my birthday, but what's been going on over at your house. I'm not going to let you get off this subject. You just see guys. I tried to pivot and he's pivoting back.

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Speaker 1: Who's the most in this situation? Very important questions. My interrupting cousin. Oh yes. This is your, these are the standards. I'm not there yet though. I don't know if I can answer them truthfully three weeks ahead of my birthday.

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Speaker 1: All right, we'll just be thinking about it. Okay, what are they?

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Speaker 1: Do you feel any older? Not particularly good answer the second question.

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Speaker 1: Do you ever think you'll amount to anything? Oh my goodness. I certainly hope so. I certainly hope so. I mean, I need to, I need to be able to be proud for my dog and my cats.

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Speaker 1: Well, thank you for for answering those questions with the good humor and spirit that they're intended to be asked in. My father asked me those questions on everybody. He doesn't even remember that he asked those questions. I have to remind him at this point because we're enough years in. But it was a tradition that had enough impact on me that I enjoyed it. I feel like there are those traditions that are like that, that eventually you have to start reminding your folks about like my mother used to call me at 7:28 a.m. on the 18th of october every single year and I loved it. I would like,

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Speaker 1: you know, in college prep boyfriends for it. I'd be like, listen, my mom's gonna call it 7 28 and I love it. Just deal with it like, you know, and then she stopped because she would like sleep later than 7 20 am in retirement. You're sitting there waiting for the girl, you know, I was like, I would really be ready for it. It wouldn't come. I was so sad like mom, can you call me? But no birthdays are fun, they're fun, fun with tradition and I like some of the ones that are a little post family has. So thank you for asking me the two questions that you ask me annually.

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Speaker 1: It is my pleasure and I'll try to catch up with you on your birthday wherever that might be.

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Speaker 1: In the meantime we have a show to get to, we do have a show to get to. I'm excited to answer some questions today. Let's do it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah,

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Speaker 1: awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions. You can email them to awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. Leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463. You can also reach us on social media on twitter. We are at Emily Post inst on instagram, we are at Emily Post Institute

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Speaker 1: and on facebook were awesome etiquette.

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Speaker 1: Just remember use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the show?

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Speaker 1: Mhm.

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Speaker 1: Our first question is titled donation don't

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Speaker 1: hello, what is the correct route to take when the two listed donation requests go against something you believe? For example, political type requests?

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Speaker 1: How do you go about sending a donation but not to the two that were suggested.

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Speaker 1: I know hospice was used by this particular family, but it wasn't an option on the requested donation list. Thank you kelly kelly. Thank you for the question. And I'm assuming this was a suggestion around donations in lieu of flowers. And

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Speaker 1: the really short etiquette answer to the question is that this is really completely up to you. Those are suggestions and they're provided because oftentimes people want to send flowers or do a little something for the family and the family feels like there well situated, they're they're they're in a good position to take care of those things and

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Speaker 1: they want to channel some of that energy some of that good intention towards something that the person cared about. It really is a suggestion. It's not meant to tell you what you can and can't do in that particular moment. It really should be offered in a spirit of wanting to help you and do something nice

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Speaker 1: and no one would ever want you to do something you didn't

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Speaker 1: feel good about

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Speaker 1: given that kind of situation. I really like your idea. I think the hospice is a remarkable organization and they do incredible work and if you know that they were connected with this family.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a really reasonable choice. Was he post? What do you think? First of all, I think dan is absolutely right. I think that these are suggestions. They aren't mandates. I think the one thing I would be really careful about is that if I chose a different donation or place to donate to, excuse me, I would

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Speaker 1: make sure that it wasn't something that had the potential to cause any offense. And so if you know just the same way you're sitting here feeling, wow, there's really not an option. I feel good about here. You wouldn't want to do the same kind of, I don't want to call it a faux pas, but the same. You wouldn't want to create the same kind of feeling going the other direction. Oh, I kind of wish she hadn't donated to

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Speaker 1: that organization on our behalf.

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Speaker 1: It's also an option not to donate. You don't, you don't have to make a donation. You could just send your condolences and that would be more than enough and you wouldn't need to send flowers because they've already suggested something else instead of flowers into something else isn't something you feel great about.

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Speaker 1: So I think that's, it's another option to consider is that you don't have to actually even make a donation.

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Speaker 1: It's an important point. And I also like your reminder that once they've suggested something in lieu of flowers listening to that part of the request is another way to show that you're paying attention that you're hearing them

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Speaker 1: resin, not sending flowers on top of a request not to send flowers. Yes, totally. And lizzie, that's also a really good reminder about providing options for people that don't

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Speaker 1: put them in that situation to begin with. We have answered a question similar to that on the show about the nature of the types of organizations that you include for suggested donations. And we don't say don't do anything political, but it's really nice to have an option on that list that you're pretty sure everyone would feel comfortable with. Absolutely kelly. Were always sorry to hear about someone's loss on this show, but we really appreciate your question and your efforts to participate.

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Speaker 2: Well at this important

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Speaker 1: time.

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Speaker 2: Mhm.

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Speaker 1: Our next question is about non binary honorifics,

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Speaker 1: lizzie and Daniel. First off, thank you for your truly awesome podcast. I don't remember when I stumbled upon it, but it has been informative, entertaining and just an all around. Great Listen, especially when all I seem to hear in the news these days is so partisan.

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Speaker 1: I'm writing to see if there is an option for non binary honorifics. I caught myself on a conference call this week saying yes sir to a co worker who I know is using, he his him. But it got me thinking I did not know how to show the same level of respect to one. A non binary person who is not a doctor, police officer judge

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Speaker 1: or something like that

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Speaker 1: to someone that I am not sure if their preferred pronouns or three a non binary person.

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Speaker 1: My company is progressive with L g b t Q A plus, but it is not customary to introduce yourself with your preferred pronouns or really feasibly to ask everyone on a 10 plus person conference call their pronouns. I want to know how I can be respectful to the person. They're personal pronoun choices

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Speaker 1: and not assume a gender for them in person or over our ever increasing conference call work environment.

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Speaker 1: I have recently learned that mx pronounced mix or R. P, which stands for respected person can be used but feel that lends itself better for written communication and not verbal communication

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Speaker 1: saying yes, respected person Lizzy is a mouthful and seems a little silly to my ears, but maybe it is just a learning curve that I need to get over. Thank you, Jasmine, jasmine, thank you so much for this question and also for your open nature to the idea that you know, maybe this might sound awkward or silly to me,

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Speaker 1: but it might just be a learning curve that I need to get over that such

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Speaker 1: a brilliant way to approach

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Speaker 1: new potential standards or new constructs that we are we are learning and absorbing into our culture. We dealt with this issue in the 20th edition as we were prepping it this year and the place where in your question, you talk about the idea that I don't

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Speaker 1: always know someone's preferred pronouns or how they identify. And people haven't totally started using this word mixers as you've also suggested, which I hadn't heard of before, respected persons

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Speaker 1: in a spoken format versus a written format. Yet you still want to show respect. You can see where the conundrum starts to occur.

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Speaker 1: And I think in some ways we are going to move forward with something that was just the same way Mix MX as an abbreviated title became easily adopted into our culture. But I think we haven't totally settled on it yet for my ears. I think Mix as a word pronounced Mix.

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Speaker 1: So if I said to dan, for instance,

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Speaker 1: yes Mix or good morning Mix, that would be how I could identify someone who's non binary or even someone who's identification, I don't know in a way that is consistent with some of our other honorifics like ma'am and Sir and MS and those things.

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Speaker 1: It's not easy, but it is, I think to me it's the way that makes the most sense moving forward. I also think you have the option in this particular example where you said like on a on a zoom call for instance or on a conference call to simply use the person's name

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Speaker 1: if you have the person's name using their name is another wonderful way to show them respect.

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Speaker 1: We use the honorifics when we don't know someone's name a lot of the time and it's not the only time that we use them. But I think that if you're if you're not comfortable yet using the language of Mix or respected person in the verbal, using the person's name is always going to be a sign of respect, no matter what,

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Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong, lizzie post. But my feeling is that

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Speaker 1: both personally for me, daniel post Senning, but also for the Institute for the Emily Post Institute that we see Mix the most office and that that's the one that I personally have adopted. And I feel like we've used on most of our communication as an organization when it's come up

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Speaker 1: and I'm getting more and more comfortable with that idea of Mix as a really inclusive broad option. That's a formal title that's not based on gender.

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Speaker 1: We've been seeing Mix Pop Up for years now and it's often in a context like this where you'll see Mix and RP or Mix and a different neo pronoun. But the Mix seems to have a certain durability that

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Speaker 1: has been around for enough years at this point that I'm getting more and more comfortable saying, you know, if there's a question in your mind and you're looking for a gender neutral or a non binary honorific. I would lean towards Mix at this point to me too. I would use Mix or someone's name. Absolutely. I also want to step way back and

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Speaker 1: really appreciate jasmine and the nature of this question because it states very clearly in a question form, something that we've talked about on this show and that we thought a lot about when we wrote the 20th edition of etiquette.

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Speaker 1: And that was how to continue to use honorifics and to have formal options both in written and verbal communication for everybody.

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Speaker 1: And I've also faced the question from some people, well, why is that important? It seems like a relatively small group or it doesn't come up very often for me.

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Speaker 1: And the answer that I keep coming back to is the point of this question which is that if we want formality to function in our world, if we continue to want it to be something that is available to us and allows for us to moderate our behavior in different situations

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Speaker 1: that we really want options for everyone. And

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Speaker 1: that comes up really clearly for me in this question, around the answer of, well, there is the option of using someone's name

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Speaker 1: and oftentimes that's preferred if you can address someone the name, it's a really personal way to do it

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Speaker 1: and you don't always know someone's incorrect. So the situation that you might find yourself in is one where you know someone's first and last name, where you don't want to use that first name because it's too informal for the situation,

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Speaker 1: but you don't know the title that you would use with the last name. You can't just call someone smith. Right? That sounds a little strange for mr smith or mrs smith or a mix smith. And if you really don't know if it's a mr or mrs or miss, then

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Speaker 1: having that mixed option B a general option as well as a non binary option is I think a really effective option. It's a really good tool to have in your toolbox for those situations and it allows you

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Speaker 1: to take that level of formality with you anywhere that you go and show respect in any situation. And that's really what we're looking for when we're talking about good etiquette because count me in the camp of I I could see years down the road where they

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Speaker 1: mix mX period and mix spoken as an honorific are all the automatic defaults until someone tells you how they particularly identify. Um and what titles and honorifics they use

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Speaker 1: and we are not there yet at all. But I could I could see it coming as just a really efficient and easier solution. It's certainly what happened with the Miz and mrs terms that it wasn't long after the Miz was introduced and became used

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Speaker 1: relatively commonly that it became the default

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Speaker 1: because it did have that advantage of not requiring you to guess at someone's marital status. Something difficult to tell just by looking at someone's name or when meeting them for the first time. Absolutely, absolutely

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Speaker 1: Jasmine. Thank you so much for giving us a chance to explore this question. We hope that our answer helps you navigate those conference calls. Well before we go on with the next exercise, I'd like to make one of my little speeches. This is your first course in preparing for an office job

00:17:39

Speaker 1: can be fun or it can be hard.

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Speaker 1: Well don't forget the golden rule works there just as it does anywhere else

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Speaker 1: treat others as you want to be treated.

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Speaker 1: Mhm.

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Speaker 1: Mhm.

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Speaker 1: Our next question is titled when to comment.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your podcast. It has given me the nudge to be kinder and more thoughtful when I react to those around me.

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Speaker 1: My question is about commenting on a co workers weight loss.

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Speaker 1: Could you give us a sample script or appropriate language to use when you want to compliment someone's weight loss or health journey? I know this person has actively made changes in her lifestyle in order to lose weight.

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Speaker 1: So is it appropriate to comment?

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Speaker 1: I know using words like skinny or wasting away are very old fashioned and not good choices, but I want her to know that I understand it can be a challenge to stick to a goal and succeed. Thanks for all you do anonymous

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Speaker 1: anonymous. Thank you for the question and thank you for the reminder that a podcast like this can serve to be a nudge to be just a little bit kinder. It was such a big part of the intention that lizzie and I set when we first started thinking about this show that we wanted to contribute and participate in making this world just a little bit kinder place. So it's really nice to hear that reflected back

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Speaker 1: as far as the question about commenting on a co workers weight loss. I'm keying on a couple of things here. One is the co worker part of it that we're talking about a work environment here.

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Speaker 1: And generally speaking in work environments, you want to avoid commenting on people's appearance unless it's a conversation that's being had in a really safe container and we can talk about what that might

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Speaker 1: sound like or feel like practically. But the big picture etiquette here is that we don't comment on coworkers. Appearances generally whether it's weight loss or a change in hairstyle or a tire and even compliments, which can be so well intentioned aren't always received the way they're intended. So the broad etiquette is that generally speaking, we don't comment on other people's appearance, particularly in a work environment. Weight loss is so tricky because often it is a journey we want to support someone on and it's often a journey that people are vocal about that they talk about, you know, especially in an office environment where there might be

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Speaker 1: a tray of pastries or something out or someone's no longer participate in the office birthday cake that comes out once a month or whatever. Uh you know, the people talk about it and it can feel like it gives you the green light to comment or support them any time.

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Speaker 1: And I think one of the show notes that I really appreciated in here, that dan had written was that it's okay to comment when the person brings it up. So when this co worker says, hey, I reached another goal. That's a really great time to say. That's fantastic. Like I'm so happy for you. It's really inspiring. Things like that

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Speaker 1: I think are really, really great ways to go.

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Speaker 1: I had a woman that I babysit for who gave me a line that I really appreciated. She said that whenever her friend would comment on her looks, what she would say is you always look fantastic or you look fantastic once again

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Speaker 1: and it just was that idea that it doesn't really matter the size. What I'm trying to tell you is that you know, you look like you're shining bright, wonderful self

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Speaker 1: and I always appreciated having that. It's still a comment on someone's looks which you know, we do it a lot in this culture and we also talk a lot about how we shouldn't do it. It's kind of this weird love hate relationship we have with compliments about our appearance

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Speaker 1: and I think we just have to kind of live in the messiness of that a little bit. But this is a very specific type of appearance comment

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Speaker 1: and it really should be saved for only the times when that person makes a comment about how good they feel. You just encourage them right along with it and that's your way to participate in this particular conversation. So maybe we'd say it's it's not about a comment, but a response. Maybe that might be a better way to frame it down. I really like that. And I had even been wondering, I the language comes easily to me because I have been wondering if there was a way to ask a question that would be okay. Oh yeah. And I was imagining something along the lines of

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Speaker 1: are you comfortable talking about X, Y or Z? And I was trying to think of a way to ask that question without it essentially turning into the compliment. Are you comfortable talking about your successful weight loss journey starts to be too specific. That's so funny, because I was almost gonna say lean into it.

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Speaker 1: Like when the person is talking about that journey, maybe that's a really good time to say,

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Speaker 1: are you comfortable or are you okay accepting compliments along this journey because I would love to support you and encourage you as you go. I think that would be if you had said that to me in our office kitchen 10 years ago, I would have been like, damn, that's so thoughtful.

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Speaker 1: The big difference being like the big difference being. If you had used the words weight loss journey then I think I could reflect that back to you. But if I asked that question in that way before hearing that language from you,

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Speaker 1: I've really directed the focus to that very personal space and even though I haven't commented on it, I've essentially asked permission to enter that space without being invited and right, right, that's where I think your acknowledgement that this is a tricky space is so spot on. And I also really like your reminder that

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Speaker 1: well delivered compliment can make people feel so good

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Speaker 1: and that there are rewards to be reaped if you can navigate those cues in a way that that opens up that opportunity

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Speaker 1: but you do want to be really careful with it because you are standing on that thin ice where

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Speaker 1: it might be the wrong day or it might be the wrong word choice for a particularly well intentioned thought that isn't received in the way that you intend, that's the last thing you want. You know, because this is a really good reminder to that just because someone is talking with you about either a change in their eating habits or increased exercise or a new focus for themselves.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't always mean that they want a compliment coming their way or a comment even coming their way. I did have a situation where one of my really close relatives was on a very incredible weight loss journey.

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Speaker 1: It really was one that was like awe inspiring in a lot of ways and I took a lot of inspiration from it

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Speaker 1: and she let me know very early on when talking with me about this journey that she

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Speaker 1: does not want to receive any compliments on the decreasing size of her body because that's that's what it was a weight loss journey. So she was decreasing the size of her body and that she said it just made her feel so observed and noticed in ways that made her feel uncomfortable. And yet the journey of the things she was doing, the new ways she was eating. The new ways she was exercising

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Speaker 1: really were things she wanted to talk about a lot, but she didn't want to follow up conversation to come into the space of oh and you look so slim or oh and you fit in this outfit or oh and you look even just you look fantastic, made her really uncomfortable. It was so helpful for me to hear that and to know where my go to encouragement zone was and where it wasn't with her. So if you are someone who's going through a journey like this, really consider letting people know what you are comfortable with and what is helpful and encouraging for you. Most people do want to support anyone in life changes or adjustments,

00:25:37

Speaker 1: especially people that we see regularly and it's it's nice to cede that ground with what's going to be helpful for you along the way.

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Speaker 1: I also want to thank anonymous for this question at this particular moment because I was recently reading a blog that I like a lot and it had turned into an etiquette conversation which wasn't the usual topic for this blog. And the particular thread that I was reading had to do with discussions about weight loss at work following the pandemic.

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Speaker 1: And the thread had started with someone expressing that they were just really tired of hearing about it, that it was the thing that was being discussed the most around their place of work and they were just tired of it. It felt like too much to them too personal.

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Speaker 1: And

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Speaker 1: the responses from the community were

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Speaker 1: incredibly, very people have very different reactions and responses to that thought, but it reminded me that this is a particular moment where many people are returning to work environments or getting to know colleagues again in different ways or having had time apart. And

00:26:46

Speaker 1: this particular conversation is one that I think is relatively easy to fall into for a lot of people. And we've spent a lot of time talking about two people who are directly involved in the conversation. But I also think it's really wise to think about the environment that you're operating in

00:27:02

Speaker 1: the types of conversations that we're asking co workers to participate in whether we're talking to them or just around them.

00:27:09

Speaker 1: And just to remember that this is a really personal issue for a lot of people and that we want to be careful, particularly in work environments about the ways that we manage these conversations

00:27:20

Speaker 1: anonymous. Thank you so much for bringing this question up. We really appreciated getting the chance to answer it on the show.

00:27:27

Speaker 1: I'm on the previous committee. Dad, I'm going to tell the class what to look for in the film. We'll have you decided what you to say. I'm going to tell them that the most important things to look for are the changes that take place in our bodies and feelings when we grow up

00:27:42

Speaker 1: grow up.

00:27:46

Speaker 1: Our, our next question is about an uninvited infant for a wedding that specified no Children, adults only formal wedding. What does one do when a mother shows up with an infant in a car seat?

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Speaker 1: She said she would put the car seat under the dining table and that no one would know the baby was there. This is a relative. I feel it's very unfair not to honor the bride and groom. And I also feel it is rude to all the other parents who are paying for a sitter.

00:28:14

Speaker 1: I also do not want it to seem that favoritism was shown to allow one family member to bring an infant.

00:28:20

Speaker 1: So how to handle this situation please? And who should be the one to speak to the mom bringing a baby carrier in. I also find it to be very unsafe to put an infant under a large dining table and do not want to be any part of that situation

00:28:36

Speaker 1: anonymous, anonymous. This is a really tough question

00:28:39

Speaker 1: and there's actually, even though it's presented to us as the mom is just showing up to the wedding with the infant in the car seat. So that's, that's one version of the scenario. Another version down. I could see being that the mom calls ahead of time to say,

00:28:55

Speaker 1: hey, I can't get a sitter or hey, I'm going to bring my baby. You know, I'm just, she'll sleep through the whole thing. You know, be quiet and you know, you could hear that

00:29:05

Speaker 1: being one too for the situation where it happens in the moment. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong cousin, but I don't find a gracious part of myself that can get behind turning this mom and the infant away from the wedding and saying, nope, it's really kids, no kids, excuse me,

00:29:23

Speaker 1: adults only. And you can't be here with your baby.

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Speaker 1: I feel like in the moment this is one of those things where just like if someone showed up with an extra guest, which technically that's exactly what she's doing. You wouldn't turn them away, You would make room at the table, You would deal with it if someone comes to you and complains, you say, I know this was unexpected. We did say adults only, but this happened and we're going to deal with it graciously and you and all over the baby.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know what I mean? Is that you just there are some times where things don't go right and you just have to absorb it. And I really feel strongly that this is one of those times. I couldn't agree more. And I want to take your answer and offer two thoughts about it. Yeah. One

00:30:10

Speaker 1: it's right.

00:30:11

Speaker 1: Just because it's right because it's right because it's right. And and what I mean by that is that I think there's a genuine good there. Yeah. I think that there are lessons that are so important. Like the uninvited guest. The idea that your hospitality is the

00:30:28

Speaker 1: thing that guides you in that moment. It's not about retribution, it's not about teaching a lesson, It's about you being the absolute best host that you can possibly be. And

00:30:39

Speaker 1: if someone shows up with an uninvited guest an extra plus one that you didn't intend for them to have

00:30:45

Speaker 1: the most gracious thing you can do is do your best to accommodate that and not call them out on it. That's the one reason I like your answer because good is good and right is right and that's what we strive for.

00:31:00

Speaker 1: Here's the not so nice version of why I like your answer. I think tactically it's a really smart thing to do, even if your intent was to show this person or

00:31:12

Speaker 1: to teach a lesson in some way. Oftentimes the best thing that you can do is let their bad example be the thing be the focus the second you start kicking them out, it's your reaction that is in the spotlight. And from a really brutal tactical perspective,

00:31:32

Speaker 1: letting them live in that choice and all of the implications of it and not joining them in. That is a very effective way to teach that lesson and by not joining them in it, you mean like not making a big deal of it, not not leaning in and focusing a ton on it, not making their very bad etiquette one highlighted very bad etiquette happened that night. That is the etiquette equation that you've heard us talk about on this show before, Is that bad etiquette? Plus bad etiquette doesn't equal good etiquette. Like a negative and a negative does not make a positive in this case. No. And it might even distract from what is obviously really bad behavior right at the heart of this is a guest who's behaving rudely who's ignoring the wishes and requests of the host who's just showing up, Who didn't make that call ahead of time. I noticed when you answered the question you

00:32:25

Speaker 1: created a scenario that didn't exist in the question I wished for it to be true.

00:32:31

Speaker 1: Yeah. And it's much more common because it doesn't seem like anybody would really do this, of course they would call and ask for that exception. If they knew they were going to be breaking that rule, it would seem the obvious thing. And yet in this situation this person just showed up and given that practical situation,

00:32:50

Speaker 1: I really, really liked your answer for

00:32:52

Speaker 1: two different reasons. When you did what you had in your show note, let their bad choice shine. It took me a minute to figure that out. I was like let there

00:33:02

Speaker 1: bad choice shine. And then I was like, oh okay now yes, if you just stay you're good gracious self then you know what they're doing, It will be noticeable and it'll be on them and it will be in that space. And and I also don't want to leave that out there as and dan. You started when you

00:33:21

Speaker 1: you brought up this section that you were going to talk about.

00:33:24

Speaker 1: You started it with you, you don't want it to be retribution. You don't punish the person for the decision that they made. Um you know you you don't tell them that the baby has to be under the table in this case. The mom was the one suggesting it,

00:33:40

Speaker 1: but you welcome them and you treat them like a guest and they might be a guest who's done something wrong. But the less you focus on that,

00:33:48

Speaker 1: the less that becomes a bigger and bigger issue

00:33:52

Speaker 1: is there a new England version of bless their heart because I feel like the place that we were headed there

00:33:59

Speaker 1: just a little bit. I don't know what we say up here, what we do up here, but I'm going to be keeping an eye out for it because you're right. That it is a, it is kind of one of those moments I would, I would say a final thought, more generous, final thought that I did want to share had to do with the parent perspective. And there are a lot of parents out there that think of younger Children, the infant age Children as being easier to take care of and to take with them. Like they don't like they don't count just like an impact. Exactly. And Putin, I definitely had people tell us, oh, still go out for nice dinners while they're still in this house plant phase where they don't move much and you just need to water them and

00:34:42

Speaker 1: that you will hit a stage where they're much more active and you won't be able to do this, you won't be able to take them with you to a formal adult only wedding. So they're very well what might be that idea in mom's mind, She might be thinking about under the table is not a place to hide the baby from everyone, but as

00:35:01

Speaker 1: the place, the baby will be the most happy, the closest her quietest. Darkest. Obviously if there's ever a situation where someone's really unsafe. I think that we oftentimes say safety supersedes etiquette. But then you would go say something privately to the mother about your concerns. It wouldn't be about throwing her out of the,

00:35:21

Speaker 1: the venue. Absolutely anonymous while we are. Sorry that you and the happy couple found themselves in this particular situation. We do hope that our answer helps for future situations

00:35:33

Speaker 1: in almost every group. You find him

00:35:36

Speaker 1: the troublemaker

00:35:37

Speaker 1: who hurts himself and the others around him.

00:35:43

Speaker 1: What makes a person like mel act the way he does?

00:35:47

Speaker 1: Mhm.

00:35:48

Speaker 1: Is the group ever at fault?

00:35:52

Speaker 1: How would you cope with someone like mel in your group?

00:35:55

Speaker 1: Could you help him?

00:35:58

Speaker 1: What do you think?

00:36:02

Speaker 1: Mhm.

00:36:03

Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:36:04

Speaker 1: Mhm.

00:36:05

Speaker 1: Yeah,

00:36:09

Speaker 1: mm hmm.

00:36:11

Speaker 1: Thank you for your questions, please send us updates or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. Leave a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463. Or you can find us on social media

00:36:27

Speaker 1: on twitter. We're at Emily Post inst on instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette. Just remember to use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media posts so that we know you want your question on the show.

00:36:45

Speaker 1: If you enjoy awesome etiquette, please consider becoming a sustaining member. You can find out more about this by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette, you'll get an ads free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content plus. You'll feel great knowing you helped to keep awesome etiquette on the air

00:37:03

Speaker 1: and to those of you who are already sustaining members. Thank you for your support.

00:37:07

Speaker 1: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer and the topics we cover. Today, we have feedback from jennifer on episode 3 17 about a question where religiously themed gifts were being given but not appreciated by the recipient.

00:37:25

Speaker 1: Hi, lizzie and dan. I'm listening to the episode with the question about religious gifts received from family members for Children.

00:37:32

Speaker 1: I wonder if they could donate them to a local place of worship or school that could use the books or materials in their religious education. It avoids the challenge of donating to goodwill, which didn't feel right or throwing new books away. Thanks for always thinking of ways to be thoughtful and consider it be well, jennifer in Minneapolis.

00:37:52

Speaker 1: I think that's a that's a very good suggestion. Thank you. General feedback. That's a great idea. There's a really good suggestion. Thank you. Thank you so much for your feedback.

00:38:02

Speaker 1: Thank you for sending us your thoughts. That updates. Please do keep them coming. You can send your next feedback or update to awesome etiquette Emily post dot com. You can also leave us a voicemail or text at 80285, A kind that's 8028585463.

00:38:24

Speaker 1: It's time for our post script segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette and today we're going to dive into the third installment of Lizzie's interviews with Michelle achieve body. This time, Lizzie and Michelle discussed changes and challenges in planning end of life ceremonies.

00:38:40

Speaker 1: Next week, we'll take a break from this interview series to discuss planning holiday gatherings. But right now, back to Lizzie's interview with

00:38:47

Speaker 2: Michelle,

00:38:49

Speaker 1: Michelle, I'm so glad to have you back and be talking with you once again. I know that the subject is death and dying in funerals, but

00:38:58

Speaker 1: you just bring so much knowledge and I think

00:39:02

Speaker 1: such a broad spectrum of topics and conversations to have. I'm really thrilled for you to be here again, so thank you so much.

00:39:10

Speaker 2: It's great to be here again

00:39:12

Speaker 1: today. Our theme is changes and challenges in funeral planning. And I feel like I learned so much from you during our conversation for the 20th edition about funeral and burial practices that I wasn't actually familiar with

00:39:28

Speaker 1: things like green burials and I had heard of home burials, but I didn't know quite the extent or details around them

00:39:37

Speaker 1: and I was just wondering if you would be willing to explain what some of these options actually are for folks who aren't familiar with it. The green burial, the home death care, the home burial.

00:39:50

Speaker 2: I think one of the really interesting things about this is there's some stuff that's coming back into mainstream funeral culture

00:39:57

Speaker 2: that

00:39:57

Speaker 2: it was sort of the way that we did things and is pretty universal or has elements that are universal across cultures. But the US sort of deviated from that because we got really into embalming, we're still the only country in the world where embalming is a major part of after death and fuel. Yeah,

00:40:16

Speaker 2: so you know, all of that changed around the civil war. So embalming is the new thing. So it's interesting, we talked about

00:40:22

Speaker 2: green burial, home funerals and home death care. These are the sort of the more constant things and there are many cultures and traditions even within the United States that never stopped doing these things. But they are beginning to come back into the mainstream

00:40:36

Speaker 2: green burial because it doesn't involve embalming and because it involves placing the body directly into the soil

00:40:42

Speaker 2: is much more in line with the way that people were buried until embalming became a major burial trend in the United States.

00:40:49

Speaker 2: The things that are sort of knew about green burial, natural burial are that we have a better understanding of what happens when the body and the soil interact. And so that's why we have a burial depth that closer to 3.5 ft or even a little shallower is because we want

00:41:05

Speaker 2: heat, we want oxygen, we want the micro rival network and the microorganisms that are in the soil. So those are all sort of in the top foot of soil for people that are gardeners.

00:41:15

Speaker 2: So this is a way to think about it. All of those interact with the body's own micro zones. Get by OEM things like that to help break the body down and return it to nutrients into the environment.

00:41:27

Speaker 2: And so this last piece about green burial that is sort of

00:41:30

Speaker 2: new to the reintroduction of green burial is how do we manage the land around where somebody is going to have a green burial?

00:41:39

Speaker 2: And so that also leads to more environmentally sound land management practices where maybe we're not

00:41:45

Speaker 2: today. Traditional cemetery is generally mowed, the grass is kept in a very short length. We might be thinking more about maybe we create a more of a meadow, like a pollinator meadow like environment or we're doing burial in the woods. Um, and so you know, we don't want to disturb the root structures, but we're going to make sure that

00:42:03

Speaker 2: the grave is in such a way that doesn't disturb the trees around it, but people can still come and visit it. So there's some interesting things there about kind of what green burial is going to look like.

00:42:13

Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by the idea that this is the way we've been doing it forever. It's not sort of a new thing. It's a, it's a return to a simpler way of burying people in a way that obviously is more environmentally friendly, that sort of thing. One of the things that I was

00:42:30

Speaker 1: really impressed to hear when we first talked

00:42:33

Speaker 1: was about the idea of a very first step that you have to make when you are like a first decision you have to make when you're planning a funeral and you said to me, well the very first thing is you have to decide whether you're being buried, you know, like at a cemetery or whether you're being buried at home and that for me felt like revolutionaries, like I didn't even know that was like an option and here I live in Vermont there, you know, as you do, you, there are plenty of homes cemeteries and like the farm cemetery that you drive by and that sort of thing. I should have known better. But that was a really big eye opening experience. Could you define for us what sort of home death care and home burial are

00:43:16

Speaker 1: it kind of expose people to this option that you exposed me to.

00:43:20

Speaker 2: So the first thing to understand is that home death care and home burial don't need to follow each other. So they often do. So just because we've been talking about green burial, so I'll just take a stay in the burial trends will start with home burial. So their home burial is when for people that

00:43:36

Speaker 2: have land and they have the burial on family land and different states have different rules about how this happens, but pretty much anywhere in the United States, if you have land and live outside of the city center, you can have a burial on your own property.

00:43:51

Speaker 2: So that's what home burial is home burial. For the most part, most people that choose home burial are going to choose to have a green burial at home, but you could have an embalmed body buried at home and you can do it after cremation, you can bury the ashes and have a ceremony that way. So that's good,

00:44:07

Speaker 2: very simple in that way.

00:44:09

Speaker 1: And you can get home cremation right?

00:44:11

Speaker 2: Cremation requires very, very high temperatures and enough time. And so it's hard to kind of figure out how to do that safely. So no, you cannot have a home cremation in the United States,

00:44:22

Speaker 2: but you can definitely bring the ashes home from any sort of ceremony or directly from the crematorium and you can bury them on your own land. Generally, there is paperwork if you're going to be doing something at home, that you do still generally have to provide some sort of record that the burial happened and where the burial is on your land, which is great because as people that are into genealogy are going to know that like, you know, grave sites and all of this are good pieces of information. Um, and it's also just helpful to know where everybody is,

00:44:49

Speaker 1: well, especially if someone is ever going to build further on the land or something like that. There's always that, I feel like storied moment of, oh no, we dug up a body, you

00:44:59

Speaker 2: know, well and you know, and it has happened and then you have to go back and say, you know, is this, was this an intentional burial or is it something else? And

00:45:08

Speaker 2: it is also worth noting too, that especially with green burial, but also with home burial, is that generally because we consider

00:45:14

Speaker 2: the burial of someone's body a sacred act, um that there are some protections that are afforded once you bury somebody, whether it's in a cemetery or on your own land, that it becomes more difficult for that land to be developed. So it has an added layer, especially when we're talking about green burial of protecting land that's conserved. So, you know, so there's this protection where this,

00:45:34

Speaker 2: it's just harder to develop,

00:45:35

Speaker 2: People are less likely to want to develop it because we're still a little bit squeamish anyways, but generally there's more protections in place. So that's sort of a nice dovetail between

00:45:46

Speaker 2: immediate effects of environmental benefits of choosing green materials and the broader environmental movement of conserving land or restoring habitat in that way.

00:45:55

Speaker 1: It makes so much sense once you say it, but my brain just never went there because

00:46:00

Speaker 1: as the theme of this entire series has been, we aren't that used to talking about these things, it's not at least for most of us in everyday topic or occurrence.

00:46:09

Speaker 2: It was really all new to me when I got started in this and everything that I've learned has come from, you know, somebody asking questions or being in a position of how do we make this work?

00:46:18

Speaker 2: So it is very, very normal for this stuff to be news to people and I'm just grateful to have an opportunity to let people know that

00:46:26

Speaker 2: if they're interested. Yes, there might be ways to make this work and what was the home

00:46:30

Speaker 1: death care as opposed to a home burial?

00:46:33

Speaker 2: So home death care is, you know, sort of has the shorthand home funeral and, and generally what happens there is

00:46:41

Speaker 2: somebody generally is going to die at home, but they could die in a hospital or a nursing home or some other facility and be brought back to the home can happen after, you know, even if somebody is needed

00:46:52

Speaker 2: an autopsy or something like that. So you bring the body back home and you perform care. Uh, so the, either the family, the close friends, the chosen family of the person that, that has died.

00:47:05

Speaker 2: And it can be very simple. Maybe you're just going to wash the hands and face and then turn the body over to a funeral director. You know, just something sort of ritualistic away to say goodbye. Um to me, it really feels like it's a chance to honor the physical vessel, the physical kind of incarnation

00:47:22

Speaker 2: of somebody and to remember and I think the hands and face. I tend to focus on a little bit because

00:47:28

Speaker 2: these are the things that we tend to most interact with with a person. So it's a chance to slow down and say goodbye to those things and maybe have, you know, those parts of a person, but it can also go all the way to fully cleansing a body to shrouding it.

00:47:42

Speaker 2: Um you can do really wonderful ceremonies where you dress somebody up in their finest and you have everybody over and you have a huge party and everybody gets to say goodbye to the person in their own home

00:47:53

Speaker 1: that's similar to awake, but the body hasn't been preserved the same way as you're saying, it's, it's some kind of washing or oils or something

00:48:02

Speaker 2: often. So yeah, we kind of want to make sure that the body is clean because for preservation, that's an important piece and then you want to keep the body cool.

00:48:11

Speaker 2: And so you could potentially, if you have an air conditioner turned the air conditioner and dropped the temperature in the room way way down. Generally, if it is going to be more than 24 hours, they're done ways to cool the body using ice. Allen Ginsberg's family used frozen peas. Uh, as with all of this, it is absolutely always easier

00:48:31

Speaker 2: to make these decisions ahead of time. So families can be prepared.

00:48:35

Speaker 2: Um there's a type of ice. it's called technique ice and it's what like frozen food and is packed in to be shipped across the United States. I like it because it's reusable. Um, it's a fiber, you soak it.

00:48:47

Speaker 2: But you know, some people use dry ice so you need to know where you're going to get your ice from. If you're going to be using that to cool the body and absolutely you can do it on the fly. But it is, it's just an added layer of stress.

00:48:59

Speaker 2: And generally the benefit of home funerals is that it really gives people a chance to slow things way, way down. There are some things that are a little bit more time dependent. You know, if you are going to be shrouding addressing the body, you're probably going to want to do that within a relatively short time after death because it can get more difficult as the body goes through some of that natural

00:49:20

Speaker 2: progression of stiffening. But it gives you a chance to really like I was saying, even if it's just the face and the hands to spend time with the physical body

00:49:30

Speaker 2: to say goodbye to develop ritual to invite people to come. So it's not unlike what happens at a wake at a funeral home, but instead of kind of having the two hours where everybody comes in and goes out, you can do it over multiple days.

00:49:43

Speaker 1: Do you have to prepare family or friends or your, your circle who's coming for that celebration that

00:49:50

Speaker 1: this body hasn't been preserved and you know that it's going to be cold and not the body itself, but that the space is going to be cold

00:49:59

Speaker 2: and

00:50:00

Speaker 1: the body doesn't have formaldehyde in it at this point. It's not in bomb, sorry. Again, my technical language isn't the best on this, but I'm guessing from an etiquette perspective that sharing that information is helpful. But how do you were that invitation?

00:50:16

Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say making sure that people are prepared for what they're going to experience is a very respectful thing because for most people, this isn't what they're used to. And definitely one of the things that embalming offers is a chance to kind of make the body a little bit more life. Like there's some color correction and just other things that happen that the goal is kind of to make the body look more like it's sleeping,

00:50:39

Speaker 2: then it's then it's dead.

00:50:40

Speaker 2: And when you don't have that type of preservation, the body is going to look dead.

00:50:46

Speaker 2: I am a big fan of giving a lot of information up front so that people can be prepared. But I also recognize that too much information is either going to come across as intimidating or people are just going to shut down and they're not going to hear it. So generally some of the language that I like to help people with is to think about that

00:51:04

Speaker 2: it's a direct experience

00:51:06

Speaker 2: um with the body and that people can engage as little or as much as they want, if you are someone that's going to be called on to be a part of the actual death care. So the bathing the shrouding the dressing generally, there's some more things that can happen there. One of the things that I know personally that I do is I offer workshops and they can come together before somebody dies. Somebody plays the role of the dead body

00:51:31

Speaker 2: and so they sort of get a chance to practice um if somebody has been at home or even in a nursing home and has a longer dyeing process,

00:51:40

Speaker 2: you might have had a chance to perform similar acts of care is it's not very different to move somebody when you're helping them with bathing towards the end of their life as it is to move the body after their, their body after they've died. So I try to help people recognize what's going to be familiar to them,

00:52:01

Speaker 2: not everybody has the privilege of having been able to care for somebody as they were dying. Um but if they have, I used that as a Touchstone, I also find that it's really interesting to remind people that this is something that was just the way things were done

00:52:16

Speaker 2: 200 years ago and to sort of think, you know, it's like, okay, you know, if your great, great grandparents could handle this, you probably can as well, but it is very different from, we are used to kind of funerals. Um and what happens after death is we show up and and we kind of follow a set schedule if we go to awake, whether it's hosted

00:52:36

Speaker 2: at a funeral home or another place, you know, we go,

00:52:40

Speaker 2: we see the body, we kind of file pass it in the casket, There's even potentially a receiving line with a family, we say a few things and then we mingle in a group and that can look very different with the home ceremony. So I think the biggest thing is to let people know what to expect and then allow them to ask questions that they're going to have

00:53:00

Speaker 2: to respect that people are probably going to be asking questions so that they can be more comfortable.

00:53:06

Speaker 1: Another thing that we talk about often when it comes to funerals and memorial services is that that obituary in the paper has the announcement of when the service will likely be if it's public or private, that sort of thing.

00:53:19

Speaker 1: And for this, this seems more intimate to me. Is this the same kind of thing though that you would put in a obituary in the paper or is this more for private? You know? Well, I guess the obituary in the paper is different from whether or not the services are going to be private.

00:53:36

Speaker 1: I'm just curious is it the kind of thing where it's like

00:53:39

Speaker 1: you're mailing an invitation. Are you calling the invitation? Are you spreading word via email for this type of thing? What do you see most often given the time frame that a family or circle of friends might have to work through with this type of service or care

00:53:54

Speaker 2: in general, you can have an obituary. But yes, given the time frame, the obituary is generally going to be more of what's happened in somebody's life than an invitation. I have personally seen the most of is that people have kind of like almost like a phone tree or an infantry, you know, and there's maybe somebody that's sort of been picked as the person that's going to be the initiator of

00:54:16

Speaker 2: the call goes out, you know, so on and so has has died. And people are invited to come

00:54:23

Speaker 2: and if you know the circle of people that are going to be doing the death care know that they need to arrive, you know, fairly immediately and other people are kind of told, you know, so you can come start coming in, you know, you know, whenever you want them to be there, um,

00:54:37

Speaker 1: a word, we're really spreading the a word of mouth among a pretty decently close knit group here.

00:54:43

Speaker 2: Yeah. But I mean social media is a wonderful tool for this. And I say this is somebody that doesn't actually have a social media profile. But I've seen it work really well using social media, but you know, email, phone calls, text

00:54:54

Speaker 2: and people being prepared knowing that that this is going to come is very, very helpful. Again, not everybody dies in that way. And so it can be a little bit more challenging when you're dealing with an unexpected death, but it absolutely can happen. We all kind of have that one person in our lives, it's like organized

00:55:12

Speaker 2: and to tap to that person and help rally the people that are going to be there and that the loved ones of the person that's died are going to need to be there with them.

00:55:21

Speaker 1: So that then brings me to as the person attending. What are some things that I should think about as a morning attendee to something like a green burial or home burial or some of the home death care sort of gathering moments that you spoke

00:55:37

Speaker 2: of a lot depends on the location.

00:55:40

Speaker 2: So green burial and depending on where you are can happen in a very conventional looking cemetery that's going to have pathways, but often because of that ecological piece and we're talking about land management and all of this often it's going to be slightly more wild. I don't mean that it's going to look in disarray, but it might look more like a meadow or it might be a forest and

00:55:59

Speaker 2: I remember I was helping a cemetery kind of write a natural barrow cemetery, right, a guide for people that were going to be coming.

00:56:06

Speaker 1: Oh

00:56:07

Speaker 2: yeah. One of the things was, you know, you might not want to wear heels, might want to think a little bit more about tick protection than you normally would.

00:56:16

Speaker 1: Very, very logistical things. That very practical pieces of advice.

00:56:22

Speaker 2: Again, what I like about it is that it kind of helps break the ice a little bit

00:56:26

Speaker 2: because there is this sort of expectation of

00:56:28

Speaker 2: what a burial looks like when we go to conventional cemetery and the cascade is sitting on the grave

00:56:33

Speaker 2: lowering device. And so when we don't quite know what it's going to look like, kind of knowing, oh, you know, a little bit about how to dress or maybe when to show up.

00:56:42

Speaker 2: And also the wonderful opportunity that's often available with green burial, whether it's at home or in a cemetery is that people are often invited to participate so people can hand lower the body into the grave, the body, the casket, the shroud.

00:56:57

Speaker 2: And also, one thing that again, is common in certain cultures, but has fallen out of mainstream culture in the United States is the opportunity to help close the grave afterwards. I often see people are given the opportunity to put a shovel full or more of dirt and to close the grave up that way,

00:57:14

Speaker 2: sort of some things to think about is to ask if it's not communicated explicitly how active a role you're going to be playing, Are you a spectator? You can have these opportunities and to think about footwear and clothing and other times, you know, also that's always a great question to ask because we don't always need to wear black to funerals. Maybe something I

00:57:33

Speaker 1: didn't, you know, here we were talking clothing, I didn't even occur to me like that. The whole other thing, you're right,

00:57:38

Speaker 2: you know, something's not color is bright paint. Maybe everybody should be wearing bright, we're celebrating that person. Right?

00:57:45

Speaker 2: I always think that's a great question asked, I try to ask that as a funeral director. Um, you know, give the family the opportunity to say, you know, you want everybody to wear black. Do you want everybody to wear? You know, you want everybody to wear a red sox uniform?

00:57:57

Speaker 1: That

00:57:58

Speaker 2: is, this gets yes. A surprising number of times

00:58:01

Speaker 1: if you're attending, let's say someone hasn't given the best direction or provided the most amount of information. Do you think it's okay to ask or does that feel like you're burdening the people who are already trying to plan and figure out like what sort of your tier of who you turn to to ask questions of?

00:58:19

Speaker 2: Like, I mean, I would say the first person I would recommend somebody ask is the person that notified them, okay. You know, if somebody sends you a text and says, you know, hey, this is happening at this time and then ask them and then if they don't know, they can ask the person that told them and

00:58:37

Speaker 2: there's this wonderful concept of circle in and circle out. And

00:58:40

Speaker 1: so

00:58:41

Speaker 2: I became familiar with it in hospice. So when the person is dying is at the center of the circle and so they get to go out as many ripples out of the circle as as they want, but

00:58:51

Speaker 2: only the people in the next ring out kind of get to go into the person that's dying in order to keep the burden off of them.

00:58:58

Speaker 2: But then the person that's in that next ring can go out to the ring.

00:59:02

Speaker 2: And it also is true, I think with funerals where the person that is the main organizer, the funeral that's trying to balance everybody's needs and get everything going and is also dealing with their own grief

00:59:13

Speaker 1: is only

00:59:13

Speaker 2: going to have maybe one or two people that are gonna be coming back to them. But those one or two people have a broader circle that they can kind of talk and share with. And so it's a wonderful way to communicate.

00:59:24

Speaker 2: Also a wonderful way to make sure that nobody's overburdened. And I think it's a wonderful way to kind of lower that threshold of making sure that someone can be comfortable in an experience that is going to potentially see novel or, or even uncomfortable because it's new. And I think that

00:59:42

Speaker 2: all of us as humans have a desire to do things right.

00:59:46

Speaker 2: And so it can be hard to know what the right thing is. And so I would definitely recommend that you ask if you don't know or you're uncertain but to think about, you know, maybe not going directly to the kind of the person closest to the person that

00:59:59

Speaker 1: was deceased, to

01:00:00

Speaker 2: the person that is doing the majority organizing and maybe reach out instead of the person that's been in touch with you,

01:00:06

Speaker 1: Michelle, you know that I'm going to ask you to come back for at least one more segment and I'm hoping that you'll join us again to talk about what we can do as a non planner. We talked a little bit about that today, but as one of the people attending these services, what we can do and how we can process and participate well in them.

01:00:25

Speaker 1: But in the meantime I just want to say thank you so so much once again for your time and your wonderful, valuable knowledge and experience and for sharing it with our audience.

01:00:34

Speaker 2: Thank you so much. It's always wonderful to be here. Thank

01:00:39

Speaker 1: you so much for this third installment with Michelle. My pleasure dan. I really had an interesting time talking with her about some of the new things

01:00:49

Speaker 1: in the world of funeral planning and end of life ceremonies and I hope our audience enjoyed it too.

01:00:56

Speaker 1: Yeah,

01:00:58

Speaker 1: yeah.

01:00:59

Speaker 1: We like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing in the world and that can come in so many forms. Today we have a salute from David

01:01:10

Speaker 1: greetings. Incredible, awesome team. I have an etiquette salute for a fellow listener. Ah, I hope I can do justice to the incredible consideration, respect, honesty and loyalty of my amazing friend Carrie done lee.

01:01:24

Speaker 1: He is the epitome of a good friend and good person. Here are some examples. A few years ago, returning from my father's funeral on a snowy day, I found my car cleared of both snow on it and around it in the airport parking lot, yep.

01:01:39

Speaker 1: Carrie

01:01:40

Speaker 1: when my mom passed and my flight was at an airport 80 miles away who insisted on taking me there and then bringing me back carry

01:01:48

Speaker 1: more. Recently I've experienced a run of health concerns who will take me to an appointment no matter the time. Cook food for our dogs, pick up items at the farmer's market

01:01:58

Speaker 1: Carrie.

01:01:59

Speaker 1: I'm not the only recipient of his kindness, Penpal to an adult with challenges employers of another challenge. Young man for household tasks. A person always ready to lend an ear or help to anyone in need, extremely generous supporter of local charities. Incredible support to his siblings

01:02:17

Speaker 1: and to thank you as always met with my pleasure.

01:02:21

Speaker 1: What have I done to deserve this? I have no idea writing. This brings tears to my eyes. If only everyone were so fortunate to have such a wonderful person in their lives.

01:02:31

Speaker 1: Thank you, carry. Like Grant done lee you're a star and we love you, David. Oh my gosh, that's so sweet. Just the very first example of your friend goes to the airport to clear off your car of snow and make it easy for you to get into said car

01:02:49

Speaker 1: that you know. When I first started reading the salute, I thought, oh yeah, you know, I should think of doing something like that for one of my neighbors of this. And then I read at the airport and was like blown away.

01:03:00

Speaker 1: Carrie sounds like an incredible individual and I'm so glad that David had the opportunity to tell us about him. We often talk about the importance or the significance of little things. This sounds like a big thing to me. It sounds like this person really does a lot for people and little things are nice, but it's also really nice when people really dedicate themselves to helping others. And David, that really comes through here and their community.

01:03:25

Speaker 1: David, thank you so much for sharing this incredible solution

01:03:29

Speaker 1: and thank you for listening. Thank you to everyone who sent us something and who supports us on Patreon. Please connect with us share this show with friends, family and co workers. However you like to share podcasts. You can send us questions, feedback and salutes by email to off some etiquette. Emily post dot com by phone. You can leave us a message or text at 802858 kind.

01:03:52

Speaker 1: That's 8028585463 on twitter. We are at Emily Post on instagram, we are at Emily Post Institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette and the Emily Post Institute, Please consider becoming a sustaining member. You can find out more about this by visiting Patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette.

01:04:12

Speaker 1: You can also subscribe to the ads version of our show on Spotify or your favorite podcast app

01:04:17

Speaker 1: and please consider leaving us a review that helps our show ranking, which helps more people find awesome etiquette. Our show is edited by Kris Albertine who is soon to be on vacation and assistant produced by Bridget Dowd. Thanks Bridget.

01:04:35

Speaker 1: Mm

01:04:41

Speaker 1: Yeah