Episode 373 - Asking for Extras

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Speaker 1: maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social, could you see that's old fashioned,

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Speaker 1: watch how busy post and then post act as host and hostess, they know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person, real friendliness. Hello

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Speaker 1: and welcome to awesome etiquette where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. On today's show we take your questions on how to say thank you for an anonymous gift, how to reconcile past mistakes, A question about hanging with work friends and whether or not it's okay to ask for extras like seasonings and condiments for awesome etiquette sustaining members. Our question of the week is about a dog sitting dilemma

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Speaker 1: plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a post script on consideration, respect and honesty. All that coming up

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Speaker 1: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute. I'm dan post sending and I'm lizzie post,

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Speaker 1: how's it going? Because it's happy november. Happy november, it's kind of like often a gray rainy cold month, like half months season half frozen tundra here in Vermont this time their season. But as yep that too, but it does hold my favorite holiday which is Turkey day and I am very, very grateful for that Turkey gratitude day.

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Speaker 1: Like it's a good, it's a good holiday. I'm looking forward to it. We got Halloween in the rear view mirror. Although the candy stockpiles are generous. I yeah, I don't even want to think about the coverage right now.

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Speaker 1: 22 and four year olds give thanks for different things and, and and mom and dad give thanks for um Advil and switching in and out right for the sugar highs, a little turkey, little dark me to bring everything down a little trip to thing.

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Speaker 1: This is a fun season for us. It's the start of holiday season and we end up doing a lot of interviews. A lot of people end up with just, it's like holiday entertaining, holiday tipping. Holiday gift giving.

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Speaker 1: It's, I think it's a lot of fun. It can often be a chaotic time around the Emily holiday house guesting, there's holiday house guesting.

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Speaker 1: I just guessed being a guest in general. There's, there's just, there's a lot that happens over the next eight weeks as we pull into the New Year and then everything gets super super quiet. So I'm like I'm here, I'm ready for it. I'm getting ready for the frivolity for this. Oh gosh, I hope the socializing, please don't let anything like prevent us from having somewhat normal gatherings this year.

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Speaker 1: I feel it coming because you were getting jazz for it. You're getting excited. You know what? It's weird but it was too Eve ites that really got me going where I said to myself, this feels kind of normal. They were invites to kids birthday parties okay.

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Speaker 1: But I hadn't seen

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Speaker 1: just general E vice showing up in a while and I noticed them and I said to myself, you know what, this is starting to feel a little more normal. Yeah, totally, totally. And it felt good. It felt good. I felt good. We're going to both of how do we handle this invitation? It's like we can do this

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Speaker 1: and we can do these holidays. Well I know there's one other thing that we can do

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Speaker 1: do we have some questions to get to. We do and we've got some answers for them. Let's do, let's do it. Awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions. You can email them to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463. You can also reach us on social media on twitter. We are at Emily Post on instagram. We are at Emily Post institute

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Speaker 1: and on facebook we are awesome etiquette. Just remember use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the show.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Mm

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Our first question is titled Little notes for little gifts.

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Speaker 1: Dear lizzie and Daniel. I hope this letter finds you. Well, I've recently discovered your wonderful podcast and diligently listened to it every day for hours. I've started from the very beginning and need to catch up

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Speaker 1: Today. I've been listening to episode 34 where you were talking about the importance of writing a proper thank you card. Now I'm all up for thank you cards yet. I wonder what one is supposed to do if a gift was left incognito, so to speak.

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Speaker 1: You see, I live in a small, friendly neighborhood and occasionally around the holidays, I find little presents in my mailbox, such as home baked cookies and candy with a nameless note or no note at all. I don't want to be perceived as an ill mannered person, but what am I to do? I would send a thank you card. But the idea of me investigating, asking around, did you leave cookies in my mailbox by any chance? Seems implausible, sincerely kate

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Speaker 1: kate. Thank you so much for the question. Welcome to the show. I hope that you continue to enjoy it as you work your way through the hundreds of episodes that are waiting for you. That's fun to say. And

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Speaker 1: I have a very short etiquette answer and then an extended answer with some other thoughts on this topic and take us away etiquette answer is you have met all of your social obligations when the gift is left incognito, so to speak.

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Speaker 1: There is no option. There's no way for you to thank that person specifically individually, which is the purpose of thank you note. And I love the way you're thinking broadly about thanks and the importance of it and wanting to apply that the situations that you're finding in your life and

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Speaker 1: I would be remiss if I didn't say I want to live in your neighborhood, it sounds lovely,

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Speaker 1: but as far as the etiquette goes, you're in really good shape. And I have a bunch of other thoughts though about ways to pay it back, pay it forward and maybe think about participating well in this community. But I think from an etiquette standpoint as an individual, you're in, you're in good shape.

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Speaker 1: Absolute. I mean, you can't write a note to someone if you don't know who to be delivering it to

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Speaker 1: and aside from like putting out a sign on your front lawn or your front door that says thank you to whoever is the cookie fairy. I think you've, you've done all you can do. And the other thing to remember is that when someone leaves something anonymously like this,

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Speaker 1: they are essentially saying, I don't need to be thanked, I just want to do this. I know it's going to make your day and while there's a little bit of assumption to that,

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Speaker 1: it's simply, it's almost like they're saying no acknowledgement necessary. The way you kind of old school do for a condolence note to take the burden of writing a thank you note off of off of the person who you wrote a condolence note too.

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Speaker 1: And so it's, it's like already implied, there is no thank you note needed for this, but dan, I will say gifts like this. I think our best responded to as as if they are an inspirational force.

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Speaker 1: Think about doing something similar and maybe it's not to the rest of your neighbors. You know, this doesn't mean you've got to bake some cookies or your favorite,

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Speaker 1: you know homemade treat and put it around all the mailboxes, you know, in your neighborhood. But I do think that it's the kind of thing that it makes you feel warm and fuzzy and passing those warm and fuzzies on in the world is great. It might be that you're simply brighter and happier that day. So you smile more say please and thank you more to the people around you. It might be that you decide to be

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Speaker 1: a cookie ferry to somebody else or something like that.

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Speaker 1: But using it for inspiration is a great way to express the gratitude for how it impacted your day.

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Speaker 1: I think you hit all of the ways that I would hope that I would respond in a similar situation. You could respond in kind you could take it as inspiration to be a similar cookie fairy or some kind of very in your neighborhood

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Speaker 1: but you also don't need to limit yourself to paying it back. I love you're thinking about paying it forward. Let that inspire you and those inspirations could just be the feelings that it brings when you were talking about someone

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Speaker 1: participating in gift giving just for the pleasure that that could bring them. It really frees you to just take pleasure in receiving and receiving. Well, if that person were there be thankful, be grateful. Let the gift register in all the ways

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Speaker 1: that you would want to. If that person handed the plate of cookies to you and smiled at you with beaming twinkling eyes and

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Speaker 1: take that feeling. I loved your little suggestions. Just say please and thank you with a real warmth in your tone that day.

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Speaker 1: Or let it take you even further, you know, pay the tolls for the three people behind you when you go through the toll booth, the classic example of paying something forward or letting that good feeling carry on to someone else in an unexpected way

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Speaker 1: kate. This question was an unexpected pleasure for us. We really do hope that you continue to enjoy the show and then our answer is helpful.

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Speaker 1: Our next question is titled Reconciling Past mistakes, High awesome etiquette team. I recently discovered your podcast and have been listening to as many episodes as I can.

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Speaker 1: I grew up secluded in an unsafe home environment and as a result I didn't learn manners or etiquette as a child.

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Speaker 1: I very much want to be considerate of others. I have spent a great deal of time researching polite behavior. I even ordered the latest edition of the Emily Post etiquette guide.

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Speaker 1: However, I find I keep making social faux paws of which I was previously ignorant. I am not quite sure how to go about apologizing for these mistakes to others.

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Speaker 1: I don't really want to bring up a painful recent past and it's usually not an appropriate conversation to have casually.

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Speaker 1: Still, there have been a handful of occasions in which my mistakes really damaged a relationship.

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Speaker 1: It's difficult for someone to understand how I could be ignorant of common social norms. I don't blame them.

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Speaker 1: Can I take responsibility for my own actions and maintain friendships without making all the ugly details public.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for your time, sincerely playing catch up,

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Speaker 1: playing ketchup. Thank you so much for writing into the show and we really appreciate your candor and also we applaud your journey. You know people are always growing and changing and absorbing and learning and whether you grew up with a parent or guardian or someone who

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Speaker 1: really was, I won't say a stickler for manners but was really good at pointing these things out to you or whether it's something you've discovered as an adult,

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Speaker 1: it's it's a journey we're all always on and always tweaking. Um and I think that's it's one of the things that makes etiquette kind of like everlasting. I feel like can I tell a personal story about, do please do you And I spend a lot of time talking about city manners. Yes, we both grew up in rural Vermont and our work life has us interacting with and traveling particularly to new york on a semi regular basis and that relationship between our Vermont lives and new york manners and expectations with something that you and I think both learned a lot

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Speaker 1: navigating and continue to learn from today as adults. Yeah, it definitely wasn't familiar territory. Probably one of the bigger areas we had to kind of learn, absorb and pay attention to and

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Speaker 1: when we need to, you know, issue apologies or issue some kind of reconciliation over moments where we do make a faux pas. So I'm curious, what are your thoughts about this particular situation? How do you handle the mistakes as they happen or

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Speaker 1: how do you handle thinking about trying to avoid them in the future?

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Speaker 1: I think it's and without sort of exposing that, that really difficult past. I think that

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Speaker 1: in the moment for small things, I think issuing a quick apology is always an excellent way to go, Oh, I'm so sorry, I didn't know that this was a tipping situation. Thank you so much for alerting me to it for letting me know that sort of a thing. I think any time it's where

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Speaker 1: we were really unaware of something and someone points it out, even if they're angrily pointing it out, you going to that place of Oh, oh, I'm so sorry, I really didn't know and I was not aiming to create offense. I really appreciate the correction, the education, the lesson here, I think is a really great way to absorb and in the moment correction

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Speaker 1: for a past transgression. Where as you've grown and matured as a person that you look back on something and you say, wow, I really got that wrong.

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Speaker 1: You certainly can reach out to people. Um, if you're in touch with them, if you feel like it would be a value, I would tend to structure however that outreach happens in a way that doesn't ask much of the other person. Um actually think a has a really good set up for that in terms of making amends.

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Speaker 1: And it's the kind of thing where you you explain why you're reaching out. You know, I've I've learned some things and it really made me see the interaction that happened between us or the fallout that happened between us differently and I wanted to take the time to apologize to you, then you issue the apology

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Speaker 1: I am sorry for and then you can just simply wish the person well

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Speaker 1: if it's not the type of situation where you feel comfortable reaching out and explaining one piece of advice that I received from a friend of mine that I thought was really excellent was that you can hold space and actually issue good intentions for this person out into the world. And this might sound a little woo woo to some of you.

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Speaker 1: But for me it created a space where when there really wasn't the ability to reach out, I could still try to find a way to process the situation for myself and I found that that's useful. I was trying to think about how to make that judgment call

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Speaker 1: about when to to reach out and try to make amends or acknowledge a mistake or offer some explanation. Even as part of

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Speaker 1: uh an apology or a reconciliation, I ended up saying to myself, it's it's something that you're going to have to decide on a case by case basis and it will really depend on the nature of the relationship. Sometimes it's worth really working to try to save something or try to prevent what was

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Speaker 1: probably a mistake of form, not intent

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Speaker 1: from being the thing that is an impediment to a relationship which in the best possible world wouldn't be impacted by mistakes of form. That that we could really get to the point where whatever our intentions are with each other, we can work through mistakes that come from

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Speaker 1: different experiences, different backgrounds or different social expectations that aren't related to core values or principles. It's not an easy thing to do. And I think in terms of how to do it. Well,

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Speaker 1: just the way this question was worded, where enough information was offered to explain

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Speaker 1: broadly the circumstance without getting into details that might make someone really feel uncomfortable. I just think that that that same level of awareness is what I would use to guide me in that discussion

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Speaker 1: if I was going to try to talk to somebody about why

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Speaker 1: I had missed this particular thing, but that wasn't my intent and ultimately I do care about them, the relationship and us being able to interact well

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Speaker 1: Lizzy, I was also thinking about things that I would do if I was in this situation that we're preventative or and I love the idea of getting an Emily post book, I think that is awesome. Listen to the podcast and we've also talked about and listen to the podcast, which I think is in many ways an even better way to really get a sense of the material in the book.

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Speaker 1: It's like a weekly dose of it to we say on the show all the time that no book can cover all of the situations that so absolutely much of what's required of us in social situations is the ability to think on our feet and change and adapt and identify what's going on. And you could never do all of that in a book. Having a

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Speaker 1: a living person, a resource that you can turn to, a mentor of some sort is so, so, so valuable. And it might be that there's someone in your life who you can identify and talk to and even make that explicit ask of. You know, I'm really trying to

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Speaker 1: pay more attention to social expectations and

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Speaker 1: I think you're so good at it. I'm really hoping that I could talk with you about it periodically or if questions come up, I could turn to you or or maybe you open that conversation with a specific question about a particular topic and

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Speaker 1: if that's not something you're comfortable interacting around, if that's not something you want to ask someone, even just being a really keen observer of people that you admire, The people that you get to see, interact and operate around. You

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Speaker 1: can be another way to become a student and

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Speaker 1: really continue to embrace and develop that that goal that you've set for yourself of getting more and more comfortable in all kinds of situations with all kinds of people

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Speaker 1: dan. You have a last note in our show notes for this question that I'm very intrigued by. Can I can I read it to everyone's and then you can explain it. I'm nervous. But yes please, you're looking right at it. You can see it too.

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Speaker 1: It's you wrote mistakes of form

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Speaker 1: are easily forgiven by people of quality and then you wrote that you want to know and I'm guessing you mean that

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Speaker 1: the types of people who wouldn't hold this against you for a mistake of Form for something like for not sending a thank you note for a long weekend visit or something like that.

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Speaker 1: The idea is that a good person of quality is going to easily forgive that mistake probably already has and that these are the types of people you want to know and associate with and that if you got pushback from someone

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Speaker 1: or or a negative reaction that that maybe is an indication of someone that it's okay to let go of is that is that kind of the idea? You know me too well I do. Did I get it? All right. Did I get because I looked, I read it, I was like boy dan, that's really nice. I,

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Speaker 1: I hope it's the nice way of saying if someone is not capable of offering you that understanding, it's probably not a relationship that you need to worry too too much about holding on to. I think that's a better way to frame it. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Playing catch up while all of our circumstances are a bit different. We are all playing a little bit of ketchup when it comes to our social graces and we are happy to be on the field with you. And look, this dispute was settled fairly and so jerry and Eddie are still good friends just as they always were. It's worthwhile to know many ways to settle disputes.

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Speaker 1: Our next question is about building work relationships.

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Speaker 1: Dear lizzie and dan.

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Speaker 1: Hey guys, my name is Caleb and I have an etiquette question for you

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Speaker 1: just to give some context. This is the situation I found myself in frequently at work, I am an auto mechanic at a big company and work with other mechanics. The other. Mechanics have known each other longer than I have known them because I'm the newest hire here. So they tend to get together and hang out and have some drinks. I've been indirectly invited to hang out with the multiple times. However, I have never been asked by the person whose house they all go to.

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Speaker 1: I have politely declined the indirect invitations because I was raised that if you weren't invited, you just don't show up out of the blue.

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Speaker 1: The thing is, I would like to get to know these guys better as I think it helps with communication in the work area,

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Speaker 1: but I don't know how to ask if it's an actual invitation from the host without sounding like I'm asking for the invitation. The whole situation always makes me feel uncomfortable because of how I was raised but also wanting to go anyway. I really appreciate any answers you guys can come up with sincerely Caleb

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Speaker 1: Caleb. Thank you for the question and congratulations on the job and also congratulations on

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Speaker 1: what I would call a plus workplace etiquette, which is you're thinking about your position in the company, your relationship with the people that you work with, how to grow and develop that relationship and investing in it. So

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Speaker 1: from a work

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Speaker 1: relationship

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Speaker 1: perspective, I think you're doing really good work and I would say, keep it up.

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Speaker 1: I am really interested in the informal nature of what you're being invited to do with the people that you work with and one of the reasons one of the reasons that interests me so much is it something that lizzie Post really wrestled with in terms of how she talked about entertaining in the new edition of Emily Post etiquette

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Speaker 1: to the point where

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Speaker 1: she

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Speaker 1: and I'm talking about you in the third person Lizzy because I'm trying to tell the story with great effect in the room. So it's okay. Was really committed to the idea of describing and honoring a kind of entertaining and gathering that happens very commonly in our world today and

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Speaker 1: has a slightly different set of social norms and expectations. So while it sounds like a business question, I'm going to sequester the business part and say good work on the business part. But let's really focus on the nature of this social gathering.

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Speaker 1: Sounds like a hang. To me, it's not a dinner party, there's shifting venues but the same group of people which indicates some

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Speaker 1: sharing of hosting duties, even if it's not on a particular night, but as a consensus agreement between the group itself, that's that's some sort of accord that's been reached. So you're

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out how to participate in that. I had a couple ideas but I wanted to turn to the expert first lizzie post. What do you think? Oh, is that? That's how you're pulling this one. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I am totally with you and I am beaming right now for the section in our book called The Good Hang, which is exactly about this sort of casual entertaining that we do because

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Speaker 1: there is this real divide between the two? A dinner party? You're absolutely right not getting invited by the host. Are not hearing an invitation come directly from a host or that a host had said, you know, to another guest, please make sure to invite so and so who's new on the team?

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Speaker 1: Like without it happening that way? You're right, you shouldn't just show up

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Speaker 1: to host house and you shouldn't just ask the host, could I come? I've been invited by one of your other guests or you know, that sort of a thing. And so I think Caleb just gold star right off the bat, but it does sound like this is casual hanging out and that this is beers after work with your team,

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Speaker 1: This is that camaraderie building. We all do the same thing and we all get off at the same time. So it's kind of nice to all hang out together for a little bit and not talk about work or

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Speaker 1: talk about work in a venue that's not work, which can also be really fun, but I think that dan has nailed it, that this isn't a dinner party, this isn't a formal event. However, I think that if you are still uncomfortable with the idea of accepting an extended invitation to a casual hangout,

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Speaker 1: that you could always say to the person who's inviting you boy, I always want to say yes to this, but I feel a little awkward not having been invited by Sarah,

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Speaker 1: would it be okay if like you just checked in with her to make sure it was okay for you to invite me to it and and that way I know that it really is all kosher and she knows I'm coming and I might reply oh it's fine, we do this all the time, don't worry about it. And I would say listen to that, that's ok. And that I would probably listen to and I might still feel a little awkward, but I might even say something like, okay, well then dan

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Speaker 1: could I go with you so that I'm not just showing up on my own as an as like a second secondary invitation. Sure, a secondhand invitation. And I think that either showing up once you've been really encouraged that it really is okay for you to come to this event, even if the host doesn't know that you're coming

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Speaker 1: or being able to say could I show up with you or could we meet just before and I'll come in with you?

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Speaker 1: I think we'd both be absolutely fine. And my guess is Caleb that whoever is hosting, whether it's sarah or bob or Kenneth whatever. Um Do you like my my mechanic at a big auto industry things names um that they will probably say, oh my gosh Caleb, it's so great to have you here or like awesome bro, come on in, grab a brew whatever it is,

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Speaker 1: I think you're going to be in good stead and I think you're going to be on your way to building the kind of relationships at work that you want to be building. And also very cool that your work people hang out after work and are inviting you. You're making me think about the good etiquette when you actually do show up of making an effort to say something to the host and uh yes, yes, very variation in the tone and it could be

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Speaker 1: in whatever tone is appropriate, but some acknowledgment, thank you for having me, Nice place. You got here some anything that offers you an opportunity to connect with that host

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Speaker 1: when the moment is right at the party. I think it's a good thing to seize on and is a good way to

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Speaker 1: meet your etiquette marks because you know me, I would be the person who says if my friend at work hadn't gone back to the host to double check that it was okay that I was invited

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Speaker 1: and we just did the thing where I show up with them or even on my own, I would probably be the person who would say to the host, hey, I know I wasn't directly invited, but I really appreciate you, you know, having this and letting me join tonight, this is really great. You know, I would, I like, I wouldn't be able to hold back from saying something like that, I hear you. So here was another sort of complicated question I had and that was

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Speaker 1: that

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Speaker 1: for more formal invitations

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Speaker 1: we say, oh you don't go to the host and ask to be invited or

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Speaker 1: you don't go with a clarifying question that's really about

00:27:06

Speaker 1: inviting more people to a party or something that they haven't been invited because this is being presented or because you're aware of this as more of a social hang less of a formalized party with a guest list.

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Speaker 1: Do you think there's more room to check in with the host as sort of an uh in between option if you said to someone, I would love to go. Do you mind if I

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Speaker 1: check in with Sarah that or let Sarah maybe not even check in let Sarah know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was thinking of coming tonight or that I was going to come tonight

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Speaker 1: you are is it then okay to go talk to Sarah or is that even is that awkward? So you you are going to make me like show my colors here. I am a chicken. I wouldn't want to do that version of it myself. I think probably in most cases you could get away with it, but I'd be more comfortable with the person who is extending me the invite asking them and I would probably be the one to say,

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Speaker 1: I think it would be great if you don't mind just checking in with Sarah that it's ok, I come

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Speaker 1: and I think the other person would understand that like it be awkward for you being secondhand asked you know to go up and ask Sarah if it's okay if you come.

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Speaker 1: But I I do, I think I would probably hold off from doing that and I would, I would let it be the responsibility of the person who is extending the invitation to me definitely the thing that feels easiest to me would be finagle ng some sort of

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Speaker 1: offer to go with the person that invited you to me that feels the most natural natural entrance. You don't have to psych yourself up in the car, knock on that door alone. Are you guys hearing how much dan and I are actually like we fall prey to social anxiety just like everybody else. Like I have all these conversations with myself of like,

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Speaker 1: okay, it's okay, you're a big girl, you can walk in like you are a business woman, you can walk into the situation, you are this lizzie post, you can do it like

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Speaker 1: and it's all the simple stuff that we go through every day

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Speaker 1: Caleb it sounds simple, but it's not but it is, we really appreciate your question and we also appreciate the opportunity to talk about the social hang and wish you the best at your new job mother? Why do you suppose mary didn't invite me to her party. Are you sure you didn't get an invitation? Maybe they thought he wouldn't want to go to a party?

00:29:22

Speaker 1: They probably thought I wouldn't know how to act.

00:29:24

Speaker 1: You'll get an invitation to the party has just been some mix up, wait and see.

00:29:33

Speaker 1: Our next question is salt please?

00:29:37

Speaker 1: Is it acceptable to ask for condiments or seasonings when none were offered at a dinner?

00:29:43

Speaker 1: Marsha, Marsha, thank you so much for this. Super, super short but really important question. I love that. Our first show note is Salt Lake please. I think that

00:29:55

Speaker 1: that you say as if it's a joke, but no, I would like a salt lick dance dance is like this close to joining the cows in the field when he sees them around assault. Like I'm just saying our whole family loves salt.

00:30:08

Speaker 1: But that aside, uh, typically the traditional etiquette and something that is, even though it's traditional, we have carried it into modern day is that you do not um, ask for anything extra before you've taste tasted your food and you definitely don't season

00:30:25

Speaker 1: before you've tasted your food. And so that's no matter where you are restaurants, someone's house, casual formal,

00:30:32

Speaker 1: whatever it is, you always want to taste before you even think about adding something, whether it's on the table or not, definitely best to start from the beginning and no question that the old

00:30:44

Speaker 1: salting before you taste. Is that

00:30:47

Speaker 1: the most likely way you're going to offend the cook that's at the table with you? And that takes me to the next thought in sort of the etiquette stepladder here, which is are you eating in someone's home or are you eating at a restaurant? And

00:31:01

Speaker 1: the difference being that when you're eating at someone's home, when they prepared a meal for you, when they're eating with you,

00:31:09

Speaker 1: seasoning the food has

00:31:11

Speaker 1: a much greater potential to be a comment on how the food was prepared. And when you're at a restaurant, you're not likely to offer that offense to the chef. And

00:31:20

Speaker 1: there are definitely wait staff that turn their nose up at people that

00:31:24

Speaker 1: ask for a lot of extras to go with

00:31:27

Speaker 1: what's presented or prepared. But the idea that you're going to really offend someone in a personal way is, is really not likely. So I start to think about it slightly differently depending on which of those two situations I find myself in. If I'm at the restaurant,

00:31:42

Speaker 1: I assume it's been forgotten that it's been on the table. Otherwise it would be there for me to choose myself and I wouldn't worry about it. And I have no problem asking for us all

00:31:50

Speaker 1: or for instance, like you're at the restaurant and you love manet's with your french fries. But most people in America, you catch up with their french fries. And so you ask if they have mayonnaise as well, like no, no, no big deal, no big deal at all. And I would also say that

00:32:05

Speaker 1: it's not a big deal, like when I'm at your house for instance, and I don't know, well let's, let's say we were doing a weekend stay up up on the mountain

00:32:14

Speaker 1: that, you know, Putin Putin, you have made like eggs and breakfast stuff and let's say that I like hot sauce on my eggs, but it's not out on the table, This is a very casual situation, it would be fine for me to say, hey, do you guys have any hot sauce

00:32:28

Speaker 1: for varieties? They're awesome. Do you want super hot, really hot, kinda hot or no, you're probably not gonna want this. Exactly. Or if you're some of my friends here in Vermont, you ask for maple syrup for your eggs and yes, that does happen,

00:32:42

Speaker 1: but I think it's fine when you're in those casual situations to, to ask for the extras or if you don't see something to say, oh do you happen to have salt and pepper, you know, something like that, especially the super common stuff, like, let's say, you are sitting down to that breakfast often, if there's toast, you would see butter and jam or jelly or preserves on the table

00:33:02

Speaker 1: and if those things weren't out, but the toast was, I think it would be fine to ask

00:33:06

Speaker 1: um or to wonder aloud about whether or not they're, they're options, but when it comes to that more formal dinner party situation where someone has prepared that whole meal, maybe even multiple courses and you're sitting down in their dining room or in whatever dining space they have created for the evening.

00:33:26

Speaker 1: I think that's one where I'm going to probably forgo asking for extras, especially extras that might not be as standard with the meal.

00:33:35

Speaker 1: Like if it's a meal that you typically don't put hot sauce on, even though it might be my specific thing, I'll probably forgo it. So that way, I'm not asking more of my host when they're, you know, probably just sitting down to tuck into their own version of the meal, their own plate.

00:33:50

Speaker 1: I think that's not the time to be going for it and certainly not in more formal situations.

00:33:56

Speaker 1: And I'll tell you the little song and dance that I play in my head when I'm in that moment,

00:34:01

Speaker 1: I might like this without salt, I might, I might like this without salt, I really might and it might be the third or the fourth by where I start to appreciate certain qualities to the flavor that some people would say are masked by too much seasoning or salting. So I remind myself in those moments, the spirit of honoring the cook and eating something, the way it's been prepared and presented is about

00:34:25

Speaker 1: appreciating what they've done for you and that might be about discovering a flavor or quality to something that's a little different than the way that you would prepare it for yourself or do it if you were on your own or if you were sitting at the head of the table,

00:34:40

Speaker 1: Marsha, thank you so much for this question and dan step back away from the salt lake. Never unless you invited me to eat it at your dining room table. Table manners are important because people judge many things about you just by the way you eat. All right, Maybe so. But it's,

00:34:59

Speaker 1: it's also complicated. Is it?

00:35:02

Speaker 1: Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can leave a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463 or reach us on social media on twitter. We are at Emily Post inst on instagram, we are at Emily Post institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette.

00:35:26

Speaker 1: Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media posts so that we know you want your question or feedback on the show.

00:35:39

Speaker 1: If you love awesome etiquette, consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette where I am told I'm supposed to remind everyone, memberships start at just $1 a month.

00:35:53

Speaker 1: You'll get an ads free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content plus you'll feel great knowing you helped to keep awesome etiquette on the air and to those of you who are already sustaining members. Thank you so much for your support.

00:36:05

Speaker 1: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer and the topics we cover. And today we have feedback from Sarah about episode 366 with the Jack and Jill Party.

00:36:20

Speaker 2: Hi lizzie and dan. I just listened to episode 3 66 about the Jack and Jill and I had to call in,

00:36:27

Speaker 2: I live in Ontario Canada and my husband is from Northern Ontario and I'm from southern Ontario

00:36:35

Speaker 2: and a Jack and Jill or a buck and Doe or a stag and Doe or a wedding social are all fairly common wedding event where my husband and I grew up, even though we're from different parts of the province

00:36:47

Speaker 2: and just as your caller mentioned, it is a large community event that is meant to be a fundraiser.

00:36:55

Speaker 2: I will say that my mom has told me that people in the prairies in Canada. So Manitoba and Saskatchewan tend to call these events wedding socials and in the past, these events were seen as a way to bring the community together, especially in smaller towns or maybe every weekend in the summer there wasn't an event going on that everyone could go to.

00:37:17

Speaker 2: So this kind of created part of the social scene of the community in the summer that people had these wedding events to go to whether it was called a wedding social. It is a nice way for all members of the community, for example, Children and seniors to gather to celebrate the couple that may not be invited to a wedding.

00:37:37

Speaker 2: For example, my husband and I were invited to a Jack and Jill

00:37:41

Speaker 2: and invited to the wedding of the couple, but my parents knew these friends of mine for a long time. So my parents and my sister came along

00:37:49

Speaker 2: to the Jack and Jill and it was a lot of fun.

00:37:52

Speaker 2: It is meant to be a fundraiser for the couple, whether for the wedding or other costs, they may be occurring at that time in their life

00:38:00

Speaker 2: and really you can spend as little or as much money as you want. There's no expectation that people that attend the event spend X amount of dollars if there is tickets,

00:38:11

Speaker 2: then usually obviously you would pay the entrance fee for the party.

00:38:15

Speaker 2: Some events serve alcohol, some don't the ones that are during the day as your caller mentioned at a park tend to be very child friendly, some that are more so later in the evening tend to be mainly for adults.

00:38:28

Speaker 2: Anyway, I hope that this feedback is helpful to you and generally also one other tip, people don't bring events to a buck and joe or Jack and Jill or bring gifts story.

00:38:39

Speaker 2: Um, the gifts are primarily for when you go to the shower. So I've never brought a gift

00:38:44

Speaker 2: to buy a condo.

00:38:45

Speaker 2: Thank you, take care, love the podcast by

00:38:49

Speaker 1: Sarah, Thank you so much for your feedback. We were hoping for exactly this kind of thing. People just telling us their experience with this type of party. It is awesome. Thank you so much for this feedback.

00:39:00

Speaker 1: We ask for your help and you provided it. The awesome etiquette audience comes through once again. Thank you Sarah. Thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please keep them coming long or short. We love hearing your feedback and you can send your feedback or update two awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com or leave us a voicemail or text message at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463.

00:39:30

Speaker 1: And

00:39:36

Speaker 1: it's time for our postscript segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette and today we're going to go back to the basics of etiquette and I am excited because I think this is such a great reminder during a hectic time of year.

00:39:51

Speaker 1: Oh my goodness! And it's

00:39:54

Speaker 1: a good reminder of a hectic time of year. It's a good reminder at a quiet time of year. It's a good reminder for me when I'm buried in business etiquette work and business training where I'm

00:40:05

Speaker 1: constantly explaining and thinking about the new trends in this and what are the demands of the current environment and how are they shifting that there is a very stable

00:40:15

Speaker 1: center to the world of etiquette, a place that we operate from at Emily Post and have operated from, for

00:40:23

Speaker 1: we like to think of 100 years now, but definitely for two generations specifically with a very particular set of values and constructs that we use to guide the social advice that we give it Emily Post. Can you guess them audience? Can you guess them? Do you know the three little words were about to speak? There are three favorites

00:40:43

Speaker 1: C. R. H. It's become a little acronym here on the show for consideration, respect and honesty because

00:40:51

Speaker 1: we refer to it so much that it becomes a short hand and it's important every once in a while to step back and really remember

00:40:59

Speaker 1: those basic principles and to reaffirm our

00:41:04

Speaker 1: our basic commitment to

00:41:07

Speaker 1: to operating from those places and

00:41:10

Speaker 1: to start to look with a little bit more care at how you can bring core principles of consideration, respect and honesty into action in your life and make them explicit parts of your behavior and recognizable attributes and qualities in the relationships that you have and we aren't expecting

00:41:26

Speaker 1: perfection either from ourselves or from anyone who likes to listen to the Emily post angle on etiquette,

00:41:33

Speaker 1: it's something that is constantly flowing. I feel like in flux. It's and it's not that all of a sudden the importance of being considerate fluctuates. I think the importance of it is always there. It's where are we at, how good are we at at observing ourselves knowing where we're at and then

00:41:54

Speaker 1: dealing with the environment that we're in and the people that we find find ourselves interacting with, its it's not an aim for perfection, but they are inspirational words, principles, concepts to get us acting in the way that that we know will have a positive impact on the people around us.

00:42:16

Speaker 1: So let's start with consideration and

00:42:20

Speaker 1: for me, my shorthand in my mind, the place that I go when I think about consideration is that it's really about other people,

00:42:26

Speaker 1: you know, there are lots of things to consider. You could go the route of of thinking about considering as the act of thinking or the act of being thoughtful,

00:42:35

Speaker 1: but to me it's very particularly the act of thinking about others are being thoughtful about the other people who are involved or who are potentially affected by something. So that that consideration is really grounded in an awareness of and an attention to others. And to me that's that's a great place to start when we're talking about etiquette

00:42:55

Speaker 1: dan, when we talk about respect, what is it that we mean? It's something I feel like that we often

00:43:01

Speaker 1: can feel and we have a sense of. But when you actually ask people to define it in regards to even anything, but in our case, in regards to etiquette it becomes a little bit more of a challenge. How do we sort of define and and convey the idea of respect that we're trying to, trying to get at here.

00:43:21

Speaker 1: It may sound a little crass at first, but I really think it's about recognizing the worth or the value of things

00:43:30

Speaker 1: and oftentimes it's people I didn't feel respected or you need to respect that person, but it's also about things in life or, or social structures or the environment, but the idea of recognizing the worth or value of others of ourself of the things around us. So it's not just about being aware of them,

00:43:50

Speaker 1: that consideration step, it's not just about

00:43:53

Speaker 1: being aware that they exist, but then also attaching real value to that saying to yourself, this is worth something and this person is worth something, I'm worth something. This world that supports us is worth something

00:44:05

Speaker 1: and dan, we actually had a good moment on awesome etiquette recently where you gave us a dip into your honesty and it was in a sustaining member question. And so I want to just revisit for a second that the issue was with a dog that had made a very aromatic mess in someone's home.

00:44:27

Speaker 1: And it was when a favor of dog sitting was being being done. And for you, you very honestly responded to that question with the fact that for you, you'd be done, dog sitting for a while to sort of

00:44:40

Speaker 1: show to the other person how this valuable thing, you just messed that up for me and it was such a real moment.

00:44:48

Speaker 1: And it's probably not how you would have directly acted like I'm sure you would have had a nice conversation with them about how you probably needed to not be the dogs that are anymore for a while or something like that. But you were very honest with us all about just how this particular situation

00:45:06

Speaker 1: would have made you feel. And even though the honesty is there, it doesn't have to be brutal. It doesn't have to be the only, um,

00:45:16

Speaker 1: leading voice or leading principle that you attack or deal with the situation with. But it was a good moment of honesty and recognizing, hey man, I wouldn't be okay with this. It would really make me mad.

00:45:30

Speaker 1: Well no, that particular example I think is a good one because the thing that I was wrestling with an answering that question is I think the actual answer would be this. I would talk to the person. Uh,

00:45:42

Speaker 1: for me personally, I would not do that anymore. I wouldn't take care of that dog. So my honest reply would require of me a different set of etiquette answers as you say that the way that you would have the discussion about the fact that it wouldn't be happening anymore

00:45:57

Speaker 1: would be a polite discussion as opposed to a polite discussion about how to keep doing it. Well. Right. Right, right, right. But that honesty is so important and we talk about it a lot in the context of the magic words that a sarcastic please or sorry, isn't magic. In fact it's destructive. That the magic isn't the word. It's not the act of offering to hold someone a chair for someone.

00:46:21

Speaker 1: It's the quality that you do it with. Are you, are you offering to hold a chair with care for the right reasons? Because that would be a nice thing to do for someone?

00:46:31

Speaker 1: Are you saying please? Because you mean it

00:46:33

Speaker 1: that sincerity, that authenticity is is the magic ingredient. And if you're not operating from a place that's true to you,

00:46:43

Speaker 1: the magic ingredient is missing. So in that particular example, honestly required navigating a path through different terrain and you could still do that with consideration and respect. You could still have a whole etiquette answer there.

00:46:58

Speaker 1: But the honest answer for me might be different than the honest answer for you or for the question ask her.

00:47:04

Speaker 1: And it's still really important. And it is, I think where a lot of that magic ultimately comes from. So

00:47:13

Speaker 1: it's about trustworthiness, it's about telling the truth. It's about standards and integrity, but it's also about sincerity and magic. And I don't think that's what people think of

00:47:22

Speaker 1: right off the bat when they think about honesty. It's funny dan. I feel like in today's world were so encouraged to be honest all the time. And, and I do think that we need to recognize honestly feelings of anger or resentment or frustration.

00:47:39

Speaker 1: We don't want to be using politeness

00:47:43

Speaker 1: or etiquette as a way to stifle what's really going on for us. But I think that that magic that you talked about it is

00:47:54

Speaker 1: it is the magic of politeness, politeness can be this wonderful tool that helps us express something honestly. But when you couple it with that consideration and respect, it allows us to access a situation. I feel like as a whole rather than hiding parts of it

00:48:13

Speaker 1: or concealing them and there might be times where we are very willing

00:48:16

Speaker 1: to not bring every thought we have to the table and and that's okay too. But I love the way that we can do that. Using consideration and respect can allow us to access honesty in a way that is polite,

00:48:32

Speaker 1: well, you bring up what I think is the next sort of important part of really good etiquette and using consideration, respect and honesty, which is how do you then put them into action? How do these concepts apply? And I think that they most often apply when we're

00:48:50

Speaker 1: making choices when we're in situations where we're in conscious control of our actions and we're deciding what we're going to do and having three core values that you've committed to her that you said to yourself. These are good places to operate from and I think I can base my decisions on them,

00:49:10

Speaker 1: you can say to yourself in any situation who's involved here

00:49:15

Speaker 1: and that's your consideration, who are the major players, who are the people who are impacted by the choices I make and the behaviors I would employ question to How do I make choices that recognize the worth and value of these people that I'm now thinking about? How do I honor that I care for these people and that,

00:49:34

Speaker 1: that I show them that I value them

00:49:37

Speaker 1: and then finally, how do you do that honestly? What are the choices that you can make that you can own and that you can own sincerely so that you can operate with that integrity and that magic

00:49:49

Speaker 1: while the inconsiderate and respectful dana always love the example of holding a door for someone because it's often something we do for a stranger, but it runs through the etiquette and action that you just talked about.

00:50:01

Speaker 1: You think first because you are all of a sudden aware that there's someone else coming who for whom, you know, they have to go through this door too

00:50:08

Speaker 1: and you're going through it either before them or you're there at the door and maybe they have packages maybe they don't. But just the simple example shows so very clearly that you have to be aware and and thinking about the environment that you're in and the people around you

00:50:25

Speaker 1: and while you aren't trying to establish a relationship with this person by making a choice to acknowledge their existence. Maybe do something helpful as you cross paths. You are building that relationship even though it is a small and fleeting relationship

00:50:44

Speaker 1: and you are respecting the worth and value of another person who's there

00:50:49

Speaker 1: and when you do it sincerely, when you don't like tap your foot as you hold the door waiting for them to cross or like roll your eyes at them or anything like that. But but you say something like you know, they probably say thank you and you say my pleasure or happy to or no problem, whatever whatever words suit you,

00:51:07

Speaker 1: you're applying that sincerity to the situation and it's such a small, simple moment, it is not getting married, it's not striking a business deal, it's not doing an interview with someone,

00:51:19

Speaker 1: but it really for me has always been such a good illustration of of that consideration, respect and honesty in action in the very simple places in our lives.

00:51:29

Speaker 1: When we first started doing this show, we would do a little micro version of this process with almost every question that we answered and

00:51:38

Speaker 1: I've noticed as time's gone on that we've had an evolution where we don't as systematically break down our answers with the CRH framework. We don't talk about all of the different parties. The step that we often used to do very diligently was developed a couple of

00:51:55

Speaker 1: different solutions that we identified as different ways that you might

00:51:59

Speaker 1: proceed and then evaluate them

00:52:02

Speaker 1: compared to each other and choose what we would think of as the best one,

00:52:07

Speaker 1: applying honesty, so little three part step, who are the major players, develop a set of solutions or responses and then apply honesty picking the one that works the best.

00:52:17

Speaker 1: And it's really nice I think to step back and return to that framework and take a look at some of the assumptions we make of each other and as question Nascar's and podcast listeners, the assumptions that we make about how these questions are answered. And and it is so nice to return

00:52:34

Speaker 1: to those core principles and take a look at how they function and not just assume that it's understood that they're operating underneath everything, but really break it down and look at

00:52:43

Speaker 1: how it is the foundation for the work that we do on this show

00:52:46

Speaker 1: dan. I had completely forgotten that there was a time where we structured our answers that way you were bringing me back. It might be kind of fun every now and again to break out that structure for some of our questions in the future. But I will say

00:53:00

Speaker 1: that I love the natural progression of really spelling things out in the beginning and then as as we grew with our show, you know, it becomes more natural to apply those three steps or even that larger five step process to how, how we all engage with all the many interactions we have throughout our day.

00:53:21

Speaker 1: It was really great to think big to get back to our roots and we hope that this helps all of you, our audience members to reengage with consideration, respect and honesty in your own lives

00:53:33

Speaker 1: everywhere you go, your manners are with you

00:53:37

Speaker 1: and they leave their mark, they help you feel sure of yourself too, and they make an impression on people on everyone you meet.

00:53:47

Speaker 1: We like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world and that can come in so many forms

00:53:57

Speaker 1: and today we have a salute from us, dan. We don't usually give our own salutes on the show, but today, as as we are coming to the end of our recording and and prepping for a month of chris being away.

00:54:15

Speaker 1: I know that both of us have been feeling a lot of gratitude both for our wonderful Christopher Albertine and are awesome etiquette audience for rising to the challenge and getting us to be able to do this. I couldn't agree more lizzie post. We open up this segment of the show by saying, we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing and

00:54:38

Speaker 1: we turn to you for so many things we say on the show, not infrequently that there would be no show without you. The awesome etiquette podcast is a community and it's a community of people that

00:54:51

Speaker 1: care about something that I think has a lot of value and I really appreciate everything that everyone contributes to that and this particular moment we needed to get a lot of questions and salutes and feedback in so that we could get chris out on a date well, well deserved and uh

00:55:08

Speaker 1: hopefully very cool, very cool vacation that he is. As you're listening to this probably wrapping up and we want to thank all of you on behalf of him and on behalf of us because we couldn't appreciate you anymore. And thank you so much for being here and being the awesome etiquette audience.

00:55:27

Speaker 1: Thank you for supporting us. Thank you for listening and encouraging us to keep this podcast going and thank you for being people who are out in the world exhibiting awesome etiquette

00:55:42

Speaker 1: and thank you for listening. Thank you to everyone who sent us something and of course to everyone who supports us on patreon. Please do connect with us, share the show with friends, family and co workers. However you like to share podcasts, you can send us your questions feedback and salutes by email to awesome dedicated Emily Post dot com by phone. You can leave us a message or text at 802858 K I N D. That's 8028585463 on twitter. We're at Emily post inst on instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette and the Emily Post Institute. Please consider becoming a sustaining member. You can find out more about this by visiting patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette. You can also subscribe to the ads version of our show on Spotify or your favorite podcast platform and please consider leaving us a review wherever you listen to the show. It helps our show ranking, which helps more people find awesome etiquette. As you know, our show is edited by the Amazing chris Albertine, an assistant produced by the awesome Bridget Dowd. Thanks. Thanks chris and Bridget

00:56:55

Speaker 1: Oh!