Episode 374 - Change for a Tip

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Speaker 1: maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social, could you see that's old fashioned,

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Speaker 1: watch how busy post and they're supposed to act as host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person, real friendliness.

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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to awesome etiquette where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. On today's show we take your questions on a rough roommate situation, a question about tipping and making change

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Speaker 1: what to do when help isn't helpful and

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Speaker 1: a wonderful 13 year old gentleman who asked about being a good guess during hangouts with his friends for awesome etiquette sustaining members. Your question of the week is about hosting, maintenance and service people in your home plus the remote excellent feedback etiquette salute

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Speaker 1: and our next installment of my interviews with end of life specialist Michelle achieve body. This week we'll be discussing virtual and drive thru funerals. All that coming up

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Speaker 1: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute and I'm dan post Senning and I'm lizzie post lizzie Post. Welcome back to the show. Thank you, thank you. This is our second recording of this particular episode and that is also why you are hearing our voices

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Speaker 1: sound a little different. We are not on our usual mix because I am experiencing technical difficulties dan. I apologize that we have to rerecord because something's going on on my end lizzie post. There is no need to apologize although I sure appreciate you taking responsibility for the

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Speaker 1: slight degradation and sound quality that I don't even notice myself when we switch mix. But

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Speaker 1: chris Albertine who does an incredible job editing the show asked us to be sure to mention it and we are so glad to have him back. It is so nice to have chris back from his vacation. That's why I said welcome back to lizzie Post for those of you that didn't know.

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Speaker 1: Um we've managed to keep the show's coming out every week but we were on a little bit of a hiatus. We had recorded a few shows in advance hiatus. Um it feels like we're returning in some ways for us was fantastic. We had a vacation of our own and it was awesome. However, during that vacation from the podcast, um we were actually working like pretty much 24/7. As much as a parent. In your case, a parent can can work 24/7.

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Speaker 1: We've been editing the third round of edits which is the copy edit round on our 20th edition manuscript and

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Speaker 1: it is that wonderful combination of

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Speaker 1: work that is so hard and frustrating because it's repetitive. We've we've read this before. We've edited this before. What do you mean at this stage we are still finding ways to describe how to hold utensils to people like I cannot believe that we rewrote that section and

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Speaker 1: I am so grateful that we rewrote it. I am glad dan that you flagged it. I think that the version we have now will be extraordinarily clear to people. I'm gonna laugh if when we do the design at it, we come up with something that is right. But this whole process has been such an interesting sort of self, an interesting moment for self reflection because as we're doing it because it is such frustrating work to have to keep chipping away at something you've already chipped away and at the same time

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Speaker 1: we have been laughing so much through these rounds. Like it feels less fraught than other rounds, even though in many ways it's higher stakes because we're getting closer and closer to not being able to change anything, but I've been really enjoying it. I'm so glad it's going to be over as of next week. But what's your experience been like with it? Oh boy. I mean, I have two competing thoughts. Okay, what are they when you say, I'll be so glad it's over next week. There's part of me that's starting to just hold on even tighter

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Speaker 1: where I'm saying to myself, boy, I wish we had one more round of this or I wish we could do this 1/4 time and I know that sounds completely um nonsensical considering where we're at right now. The other thing I've noticed is just like you, a lot of the major issues or things that we wanted to work on, We spend a lot of time on, so you'll get the whole sections of the book and you'll say, oh, I remember this section and

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Speaker 1: well that feels pretty good to me. And then there are those sections, because it is the third time we've revisited it. They're the hardest questions. They're the ones that, or maybe they're the hardest between us or not even hardest, but they're the ones that are,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's not a right or wrong, it's a question of tone or humor, how does this fit or doesn't fit? Is it, is it flowing in the narrative that we're building here? And

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Speaker 1: those decisions are sometimes aesthetic, sometimes sort of just personal or, or language preferences and

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Speaker 1: the fact that they're still there means that we've put them off much time. And so there's some that you see, and you say, oh, this is really familiar, we did this three times and we settled at the second and then others that you say, okay, now we finally got to make our choice and it's going to fall one way or the other. And I think that good humor has helped get moved through those places.

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Speaker 1: I feel like this is the round where

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Speaker 1: we're also really stripping away. The stuff that

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Speaker 1: might have been jokes are really fun or really, really daring to put in the book, you know what I mean? And we're like, okay, take it down a notch the writers, you're so excited, you're, you're being bold, let's not let's not jump off the cliff. Um, but I love what often ends up in its place or there have been a few places and I forget what one of them was that. I think you added a cha cha cha after something where so there are these little moments where jokes are getting added in. So it's not like the book is being stripped of its humor or stripped of its uh you know, the couple of places where it could seem risque, but it's fun kind of placing them differently more strategically, um crafting them a little more carefully and,

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Speaker 1: and it can be very humorous to see what we actually thought we might get away with it. It's like, what were we thinking? Yeah, like at what point, what, what was going on? What? three a.m. Like editing session did that get passed through?

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Speaker 1: So it's always illuminating ever entertaining. I'm really enjoying the work we're doing. I'm also really glad that we will be turning it into Caitlin and her team over at 10 speed press

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Speaker 1: next week and we will have it off our plates and we could get back to things like, like participating on our social media more and having fun doing the podcast together. I'm very excited for regular run of the mill etiquette work at the institute again, lizzie post before we leave this intro.

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Speaker 1: You also have to tell everybody what else you've been doing this last week. Oh my goodness, you are right, I feel, I feel like this project is so in my head that we have to finish it, I forgot what we just did. Um and that is that kelly and I recorded our audible original over the last three days. Um it was again recording audiobooks, probably the best thing that I get to do at work. It's my favorite part of the job. Getting to do it

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Speaker 1: with a friend where it's a back and forth and you're swapping these incredibly embarrassing stories that people have given us and getting to talk about the etiquette and the ridiculousness of them and commiserate about how, how you've been in a similar situation, oddly, they're fairly unique, it was delightful. We got to work with a really incredible director who is also an actor who has been in like movies and television that I've seen. Her name is Megan Halloway and she is

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Speaker 1: wonderful. It was such an experience to have someone who is a skilled actor directing you and telling you, you know, like in the pickups uh see if you can try this line this way and she's so humble, she's like, I don't know that my way will work like you might try it and it might not sound the same coming out of your mouth and

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Speaker 1: and that brought so much ease to it. But working with kelly on, it was a blast, it was a lot of fun and we are going to be releasing this book now in february. So we are really excited about that and

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Speaker 1: it is definitely the wildest, most explicit content version of anything etiquette related. I've been so curious about it. We've known Kelli Williams Brown for years now and I know you two had a lot of fun writing that book and

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Speaker 1: give us the title one more time. The title is mistakes were made. It's nice to see it kind of coming to conclusion. The idea had always been that this would be an audible original. That the thinking even in the writing of the book was that it was more of a script for you and kelly to read than it was meant to be a written product, although they will print the book.

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Speaker 1: It's something different in a couple of ways from what we've done and you've had a lot of experience on the microphone over these last five years that we've had together and I've been just also really curious to hear that come to bear

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Speaker 1: on a project. That's more in our literary world. Yeah, it was really fun, congratulations. Good work, getting it done. That's hours of time in the middle of this final edit and keeping that schedule. I know it wasn't easy. So put me in the camp of people that are curious to hear the final problem. I hope you don't fire me once you do. I think you're I think you're safe. Okay, because in the meantime I would love for us to get to some questions, some listener questions. Let's do it.

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Speaker 1: Awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions. You can email them to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. Leave a voicemail or text at 802858 kinds. That's 8028585463 or reach us on social media

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Speaker 1: on twitter. We're at Emily Post on instagram. We're at Emily Post institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette.

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Speaker 1: Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media posts so that we know you want your question on the show.

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Speaker 1: Mhm

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Speaker 1: mm

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Speaker 1: mm hmm.

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Speaker 1: Our first question this week is about a rough roommate. Hello, awesome etiquette. And thank you for all the advice over the years. I am struggling with how to best approach a roommate situation.

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Speaker 1: A little background information. I just bought my first home. It's a small town home in Huntington Beach California. Congratulations! Congratulations. A close friend recently moved across the country and is going to be my roommate for the foreseeable future.

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Speaker 1: I've known him many years but we've never lived together before and I am surprised to see that from my perspective he is not respecting my new home or the boundaries I express when it comes to use of space.

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Speaker 1: Some of this, I can chalk up to adjusting to living with a roommate. But I want to correct some things without damaging our friendship

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Speaker 1: with some things like not dumping a jacket and the daily carry on the kitchen table. It was easy enough to clean up after him for a few weeks until he realized and started doing it himself.

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Speaker 1: But there's other things that are hard to comment on without sounding nit picky like piling dishes in his room, not wiping off shoes on the way into the house and leaving dirt and bicycle tire skids on the walls,

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Speaker 1: generally treating my home the same way he treated tantalizing in Brooklyn with three roommates.

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Speaker 1: But my biggest issue is totally ignoring the storage space parameters. I've expressed we have a one car garage and one parking space. I use the garage and he has the parking space.

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Speaker 1: I made room for some garage storage for him and clearly expressed that he does not have free range to pile things in the garage.

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Speaker 1: I do not like clutter and all of the spaces that I see as breathing room he sees as space he can claim every time I tidy things up to have that breathing room he fills it.

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Speaker 1: I've told him many times that if he needs more storage space he can street park,

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Speaker 1: I'll use the parking space and he's welcome to use half the garage for storage or whatever but that I'm not okay with the stuff just piling up and things being packed in and cluttered.

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Speaker 1: He's been very defensive when I reassert boundaries.

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Speaker 1: How do I address this repeated boundary pushing in a way that is assertive and clear but still makes him feel welcome to be here.

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Speaker 1: Thank you Jackie. Oh, Jackie, I am, I'm feeling for you right now and especially because this is your first home that you've owned and that is, it's a special time. It's a, it's a special feeling and experience. And

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Speaker 1: I remember the excitement of wanting to set up my home just how I wanted it to be. And when you mentioned things like the blank spaces that give you breathing room that are getting filled up with his stuff, I just think like, no, like this is your first homeowners experience, You want it to feel really, really great

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Speaker 1: and dan, I am going to start off big and bold

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Speaker 1: and say that having listened to and read Jackie's um email to us. I don't feel like this is a good roommate fit a lot of the things that we would typically talk about, especially in the early days of a roommate situation. It seems like Jackie's already done. Jackie is both addressed things directly

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Speaker 1: as well as done the thing of just doing what they'd like done and then seeing how the roommate reacts. That's what the daily carry stuff. It was like the roommate picked up on that and he started moving things. But these other things when I hear that someone gets really defensive

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Speaker 1: that it's repeated that their m o seems to be to fill up the blank spaces in the house that give you breathing room. And

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Speaker 1: it seems like you guys have really different living styles if one person puts a lot of dishes in the bedroom and the other doesn't, you know, I just feel like maybe this isn't a good fit, which is tough news to deliver. Like it really is. And I want to talk some about

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Speaker 1: that conversation, how you have that conversation, whatever place that you decide you would most like to get to.

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Speaker 1: But I also like you as I was reading the question, I was noticing myself feeling very sympathetic and also seeing a lot of the things that we often suggest as first tries already having been done.

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Speaker 1: And the other one that really jumped out at me was the willingness to compromise this idea that other solutions had already been presented. That we we we've we've talked about changing the way we park and I could even move out of the garage and really be sure you have more storage space.

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Speaker 1: I mean to me, I'm hearing a real willingness to compromise and also

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Speaker 1: what I'm guessing was pretty effective communication about that that that was communicated at some point.

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Speaker 1: So a little bit like you, I find myself saying, all right, So is this really the right relationship the right situation and

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Speaker 1: there's a complicating factor that we're

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Speaker 1: work adding a new role here that Jackie is both the first time home owner, but she's also playing the role of first time landlord or first time

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Speaker 1: renter or someone who's doing the renting and

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Speaker 1: separating that relationship and that role from your role as friend and your relationship. His friend is not easy. And

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Speaker 1: I think that that one idea I had for a way to maybe start to clarify those roles is to ask for a house meeting to start to put some structure around a conversation.

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Speaker 1: So that even even if it was a conversation that was being had among friends, that there would be all the indicators that that conversation isn't our usual

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Speaker 1: every day we're passing in the kitchen negotiating the dishes. But it's it's more of a serious conversation about how we're living together and how we want to negotiate that and and and work it out and

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Speaker 1: what we can commit to because I was feeling like a that language of it's a house meeting. Like gives it some kind of structure to lean into that. I think the friendship needs in order to balance out the roommate ship relationship. And then I feel like on top of that

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Speaker 1: the thing that Jackie's got to remember is that

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Speaker 1: because you're setting that more formalized meeting both parties should be bringing their issues and while there are some things like this is the space you actually get that kind of fall in your Jackie, your landlord role.

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Speaker 1: There are other things I think that are like how you're both choosing to care for the property and how you're choosing to spend time either with each other without each other within it. How you

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Speaker 1: organize your food, how you handle cleaning, all those kinds of things that really both parties have have the standing to bring up and talk about and and make decisions together about

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Speaker 1: you mentioned it gets complicated and the place it does get complicated is if you Jackie really don't care for the suggestions that are coming your way. You can't live in a house where

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Speaker 1: those dirty dishes are in the room ever. You know that kind of when you really start to see that the style of living that one person wants versus style of living another person wants isn't the same.

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Speaker 1: The hard part with this particular situation is that

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Speaker 1: Jackie owns the home, she's not going to be the one moving out. You know, by the way, I keep proposing this whole like moving out, ending the relationship thing. It could be that the roommate meeting provides the space and the structure to talk about everything in a way that you really can communicate compromise and commit on the, on the issues at hand, like the bicycle tire on the wall and the shoes with the dirt and things like that. I think that's a really reasonable approach. And I don't think it's a terrible thing to do in your mind go to the place that would be the

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Speaker 1: sort of the ultimate or most extreme outcome or scenario, In fact, it's often a really good tactic, you say to yourself, well, if we really can't resolve this, what does that look like and how do I navigate that? Or if I'm able to resolve it perfectly, what does that look like and what is that going to require of me? And oftentimes just having those two boundaries in place, understanding. But you know, I can live with this if it works out this way or this way is enough to stay emotionally calm and present in the conversation in a way to really find the place within that range that might work for someone else or to know that you've hit that, that that boundary limit and that,

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Speaker 1: that there is going to be a change that comes, that

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Speaker 1: that is something you thought about and reckoned with. And I think that you're

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Speaker 1: really right to point out that ultimately the owner of the house has a lot of,

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Speaker 1: has a lot of control in the situation and

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Speaker 1: yeah, the respect and the honoring of the friend relationship, I think it means you're not going to exercise every piece of landlord control that you have, recognizing that someone has moved across the country to be there.

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Speaker 1: If there is a parting of ways that's going to happen, Jackie sounds like a really reasonable person to me. And I'm sure Jackie, you would

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Speaker 1: reach an accommodation that gave someone enough time to find a new place to live. Those sorts of things. So in some ways it doesn't come into my mind as necessarily the worst possible thing or something

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Speaker 1: to be really scared of. And the other thing that I wanted to mention before we talk, just about a couple more things that might help that conversation is that I think a lot of Jackie's concerns are really reasonable. Bicycle, tire, skid marks on the wall, someone carrying a bike in and out and leaving marks on a wall

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Speaker 1: is something that damage is a very reasonable thing to say, that either needs to be fixed by you or we need to have that not happening in the future. The

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Speaker 1: idea of that common space in the kitchen is one that I think is a very common discussion or negotiation between people living together. That's less of a place where I bring my authority to bear. Just on a personal level, I have to mention the garage. I love clean garage, Nothing in the world satisfied me as much. This summer is getting the garage nice and clean and different people see that differently. I have a hard time keeping that space open. My parents stop by and drop stuff off in that space. My family is filling up that space. I find myself filling up that space

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Speaker 1: and to really establish that boundary in a way that someone else sees it and respects it is something that might take repeated reminders and repeated discussions to to really enforce that. That's something that matters to someone in the course of the discussion where you're talking about it.

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Speaker 1: My advice is to keep the focus on the positive, how much you enjoy it, how much it matters to you, how this is something that

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Speaker 1: you see, People could see differently. But for you personally, it's something that you really care about and asking for help respecting and honoring that I think is often times the best way to get the outcome that you're looking for. Jackie, congratulations on your new home. We are sorry that your roommate situation isn't isn't crackerjack just yet. But we are hoping that with a little bit of communication and structured you'll be able to get to the place that you both need to be in.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for the question.

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Speaker 1: I guess there's no use in saying, I'm surprised you can see that.

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Speaker 1: Keep talking Ben

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Speaker 1: give yourself a chance to think I want to thank Miss Alton for this opportunity

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Speaker 1: now that we know more about you Ben, we began to understand you a little better.

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Speaker 1: Why did they see you one way Ben and not as you really are,

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Speaker 1: Is it possible that you do not give them enough basis for understanding?

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Speaker 1: Our next question is titled tipping troubles

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Speaker 1: dan and lizzie. Hello to two of my favorite people. I like so many others, love your podcasts so much. I have always been a huge Emily Post fan and was thrilled to find awesome etiquette last year. I am listening in order from episode one so I don't know if you have addressed my question yet.

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Speaker 1: Can you ask for change when you're giving a tip? My husband was getting his hair cut when he went to give a tip, he only had a $20 bill but wanted to give a $10 tip.

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Speaker 1: Can he ask for change when giving a tip

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Speaker 1: Sincerely your biggest fan? Ashley Oh Ashley, thank you so much for the question and I don't know if we have done this particular one in the 373 previous episodes. So gold star providing a slightly new angle on an old question

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Speaker 1: um that has a very simple answer that I think we can then have some fun talking about the easy and quick and simple answer. It is absolutely appropriate asking for change so that you can make the proper tip. In fact, I think it's a really good idea. The way that you can feel the best about tipping is when you feel really secure and confident that you're doing it well

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Speaker 1: and knowing that you're tipping the right amount and having a good idea of what that is and then taking whatever steps you need to take to get there so that you can feel really good doing it is the way to keep the spirit of generosity and gratitude really at the center of that tip and that's the important thing anytime we're participating when we're talking about gratuities and tipping

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Speaker 1: lizzie post. There is a funny little psychological moment here though and I think I understand the hesitation,

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad you remembered it from our first recording. So this is one of those things where a little bit of paying attention I think can go a long way and the thing not to do is to hand the person that $20 bill saying

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Speaker 1: oh and could I please get changed for this because I will admit I've worked in a lot of jobs where you get tipped,

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Speaker 1: it is thrilling to be tipped way beyond the normal and it happens on rare occasions you never expect it

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Speaker 1: but it is like glorious when it occurs, I mean just angels and orchestras coming out of nowhere and your day week month

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Speaker 1: like is just beyond incredible. Like sometimes that one giant tip is more than all the other tips you've gotten in it, that's not a 20 in my hand, that's 100. Yeah exactly like so when that 20 even when that 10, even when that five sometimes um and and for fun even when that 50 or 100 comes out of a wallet and you just, you cannot help get partially excited that that is coming to you and and that is real

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Speaker 1: So what I think you should do is wait to pull it out of your wallet until you've asked the question, would you be able to break a 20 for me? Yes, I can. Okay now you hand them the 20 and they know that that 20 coming at them is absolutely meant to be broken and that you're not about to like surprise them with a gigantic tip post. I am so glad that you got into the moment

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Speaker 1: because I can totally see how that would happen that if it's the site of the money first before there's any mental preparation right at that moment where you're maybe expecting a tip

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Speaker 1: that that could cause um just just a momentary confusion or disappointment that you don't want to be part of that experience,

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Speaker 1: what I was imagining was and this is the place that my head goes, so I'll reveal some of my insecurities is that I started to worry that I might appear cheap.

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Speaker 1: That here I've got, I've got this money and I want to give you less so I need you to break it up for me. And it really isn't that at all the expectation isn't that you over tip and the fact that you're breaking up your bills so that you can give a tip that is a reasonable tip and that someone will be appreciative to receive

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Speaker 1: isn't something that I would worry about. So I was really, I dismissed that concern some and I appreciate your more specific approach well and like to the insecurity that you experience in that moment on the other end of it. It's like

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Speaker 1: no, no one who works in the service industry would expect that like you give them all the catch you have like it's just not the way most servers brains are working when they see someone maybe like flip through a water bills or something like that. It's like no one would look at you as cheap for giving them the expected tip within their industry, a reassurance we all need sometimes

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Speaker 1: Ashley thank you so much for being our self declared biggest fan. That is also very exciting and thank you so much for getting us a new question in episode 3 74. We hope that our answer helps. So we see how money serves as a standard for future payments. A yardstick by which we measure the value of anything bought or sold to be paid for in the future. Tom first used it as a medium of exchange for goods

00:27:11

Speaker 1: Mr kelly received it as a medium of exchange for services.

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Speaker 1: Mhm.

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Speaker 1: Our next question is titled Fumbling With my furniture.

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Speaker 1: Hello there, I have a question about flat pack furniture and friends recently, my friend very kindly offered to drive me to a big flat pack furniture store as I have moved houses and needed some new items.

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Speaker 1: She then brought me home and offered to help me assemble it. It was so kind of her.

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Speaker 1: However, as we got started, I realized that she wasn't being quite as careful with the assembly as I was. I noticed she was screwing in screws at quite an angle and on one occasion nearly damaged one of the pieces. As she tried to bash it into place,

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Speaker 1: I tried to gently guide her, talking my process out loud. For example, I'm finding it much easier to get these screws in straight if I twisted in first before using the screwdriver. But she didn't seem to take much heed.

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Speaker 1: I was able to redirect her to another part of the assembly that was more straightforward. But I was really concerned the whole time that she was going to damage the furniture, especially as it was made of fairly cheap materials.

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to offend her and be checking everything she did, but I also didn't trust her to get on with it herself and it made the whole process a lot more stressful than if I'd just been doing it myself.

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Speaker 1: Do you have any thoughts on how I could handle a similar situation again

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Speaker 1: with this friend? I will make sure I gratefully decline similar offers of help. But this is the kind of favor that people seem to offer quite regularly and I don't want to get stuck in another moment like this and not feel comfortable asking them to just put down their tools.

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Speaker 1: Thanks in advance for your help best Annan Annan and I like the nickname for anonymous. I think you did so many things we would have already told you to do. Like I love the example where you're telling someone how you're

00:29:05

Speaker 1: finding a better way to put these screws in. That's like I feel like those words probably have come out of my mouth at some point. Like I hear myself, I hear myself, I really do like so relatable and also the fear as you see that friend like screw something and it almost messed up something. You probably just made like a couple 100 bucks for something. I mean like it's you know it's flat pack but it does not mean it's inexpensive and so I can just see the frustration and the place that I would go to next and dan,

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Speaker 1: please call me out if I am about to suggest some form of like white lying or little lies, mickey mouse lies or anything of that. But I think

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Speaker 1: even though I would want to get this furniture done, I am now in a place where I do not want to get this furniture done with this person and that it is okay to say you know what, I'm feeling a little overwhelmed with this. I actually want to just stop

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Speaker 1: and pick it up again later this afternoon you know like or later tonight thank you so much for offering to help and for coming over and getting it started with me and driving me to the place. Like

00:30:10

Speaker 1: thank them for everything they have done, tap yourself out be like, I'm, I'm out on this and because it's my house, my furniture and I'm like, you know, I'm not the best kind of friend helping in this situation you have to be done to like,

00:30:26

Speaker 1: okay, I don't think that's deceptive at all. Thank you for absolving me that well, but I want to put the positive that it gets spin on the idea cause I don't think it's just an escape. I really do think that it's

00:30:40

Speaker 1: um, it's about stopping what's happening and it's about taking responsibility for that decision on yourself. Even if there's a, uh, you're making the choice because they are potentially going to damage something that you just purchased or you just don't trust them to, to, to do it in a way that

00:31:00

Speaker 1: you would feel really good about

00:31:02

Speaker 1: to me. That's not something you need or want to get into explaining to somebody and that it is entirely reasonable to say, you know, I'm not feeling like this is working well for me right now because it's not. And

00:31:15

Speaker 1: or you know, I've had enough of this for the moment or I'd really rather enjoy my time with you. Let's get a cup of coffee in the kitchen and just relax for a minute. Thank you so much for taking me to pick this up that you both take responsibility for ending the work that's happening, that you make that choice and you make it clear.

00:31:37

Speaker 1: But then you also take some responsibility as a host to then transition the experience to invite them to do something else to turn the focus on to your appreciation for what they've done. Don't, don't dwell in that awkward moment or

00:31:55

Speaker 1: could you put that down and leave, You know, not the way to go. And I think it's executing that transition, that's where the art of good etiquette starts to come into play and even if someone gets the sense that okay my helps not being appreciated here or it's not help that they want. It's also within a very reasonable set of boundaries among friends and

00:32:19

Speaker 1: I couldn't help read this and start to fly back in my own mind and think about the general problem of people offering help that you don't want and that it that it really is an etiquette conundrum.

00:32:34

Speaker 1: I two dan was thinking about that because part of the question and non has for us is, you know, what, what should I do, how can I handle a similar situation in the future when someone is offering help and

00:32:46

Speaker 1: I think I would be very willing, maybe cheeky maybe daring a bit

00:32:52

Speaker 1: to actually say to someone if I'm saying things like, oh, I've got this gardening project that I'm gonna be doing, you know, and and a friend says, oh I just love to garden, I would love to help you with that. I know how much manual labor it is. I would love to do that.

00:33:07

Speaker 1: That's when I would say, okay, years of experience have taught me that what you just said is an incredibly generous thing to offer, but I've got to be honest, I've had some help that wasn't really helpful in the past. So would you be willing to like,

00:33:21

Speaker 1: you know, really, I don't know now pick your battles, do what I say, follow instructions like work with me on it, but not take over because I have dreams about the bluebells that I've wanted to plant here for years. You know, like I would start getting very particular and almost in a humorous way so that they understand you've kind of been through this scenario on the bad end before and you'd love to have the good side of it like handled dan, Is that too much to do? I go overboard as is the question when editing a book, there is often a question of dosage, not a question of right or wrong. It is certainly true that I think oftentimes your personality, your gregarious nature allows you to make some choices where you go. Some places I might not because I would feel a little awkward and that would come across you'll hear how wonderfully tactful and generous that was like that is some good etiquette work right there.

00:34:20

Speaker 1: I really like the part of your answer where you're saying things like we're essentially thinking, I think that thanks is

00:34:28

Speaker 1: a plus. I think that always I mean the I think the official etiquette answer is when someone offers help and you turn it down, you thank them for the offer and that's the way to really keep the focus on the quality of the exchange. And

00:34:42

Speaker 1: it allows for all of those other things like no, this is something that I only do myself or I don't

00:34:48

Speaker 1: appreciate. They'll be awful. I just can't accept it right now. Whatever the timing isn't right

00:34:52

Speaker 1: having issued that thanks, I think qualifying, the kind of help that you would be willing to accept is also really smart that you put you put the you put the framework around that so they know what they're saying yes to. And

00:35:04

Speaker 1: I think in your particular case, talking about your your love of

00:35:08

Speaker 1: bluebells and your willingness to take some direction when it comes to either weeding or planting them at the right depth or I don't even know bluebells, you would need to tell me exactly what to do

00:35:20

Speaker 1: is also really smart. I don't know if I would get into as much that I've had a bad experience with this before, but that was such good humor that I think you might be able to get away with it without transferring that as an expectation onto this other person, but it's more of an explanation without just throwing the other friend completely under the bus. Be like, listen, I did this with Jamie the other weekend. Whoa boy. Like no way.

00:35:46

Speaker 1: Yeah,

00:35:47

Speaker 1: there's there's a reason this was signed in on Exactly lizzie post. I was having so much fun with this question that I took a crack at a few sample scripts. Could I could I maybe offer them up? Here we go. Um

00:36:03

Speaker 1: could you help hold this while I screw the screws in place?

00:36:07

Speaker 1: So this is me escalated through sort of interventions 1st 1st. Maybe this is how I like to do it. Then comes up the where you sort of engage yourself and actually join them. Um

00:36:19

Speaker 1: for putting a stop to things. Hold on just a minute. I want to be really careful putting the screws in

00:36:25

Speaker 1: and that's one where it's, it's directed them like hold on, just a minute, you're giving clear direction and you're taking responsibility for it, you're explaining why you're doing it and where you're coming from.

00:36:35

Speaker 1: If this is all failing, do you know what? I want to put this whole project on hold and come back to it when I've got a little more time attention to get it right. Good work cousin. Good work. I like it. Anyway, escalating sample scripts,

00:36:52

Speaker 1: Shannon, thank you so much for this question. It has been a delight to explore the answer and we certainly hope that our answer helps for when your friends decide to offer favors in the future before men learned how to control fire and put it to work, it was man's greatest enemy

00:37:12

Speaker 1: in much the same way your emotions can be your own greatest enemy

00:37:17

Speaker 1: or under control.

00:37:19

Speaker 1: Your emotions can make you healthier and happier and improve the lives of people around you.

00:37:26

Speaker 1: Our next question is titled A young gentleman wonders

00:37:31

Speaker 1: Hello Daniel and Lizzie to start. I am a 13 year old boy.

00:37:36

Speaker 1: I have an important question involving me going to a friend's house when I go to my friend's house, I don't know what to do. I'm not sure what the proper etiquette is. I know I should say hello with eye contact and a good handshake to the adults and say thank you for allowing me over? I don't know if I'm supposed to bring a host gift or not.

00:37:56

Speaker 1: If I am supposed to bring one.

00:37:58

Speaker 1: Is it for the friend who invited me or their parents? Also, I never know if I should take off my shoes. So I sort of stand there in limbo

00:38:07

Speaker 1: if I have a wet jacket. Where do I put it?

00:38:10

Speaker 1: I know part of that is expecting one's host to be a good host, but there's only so much I can expect of the barely teenage boys that are my friends

00:38:19

Speaker 1: and when my siblings come with me and they just make themselves at home, how do I give them cues to be more polite. Is it considered rude for me to do so high if I should, how do I do it nicely, but still get them to take me seriously,

00:38:36

Speaker 1: please help befuddled boy.

00:38:39

Speaker 1: Yes, it would be totally cool if you wanted to read my question on your podcast

00:38:43

Speaker 1: and we did, Oh I I also want to say don't feel befuddled, it sounds like you are doing so well and even if your mind is full of questions, I can just hear in the questions that you're asking a mind that is, it is so clear and is probably interacting socially so well. So

00:39:02

Speaker 1: um just bravo 333 etiquette, cheers from the host of awesome etiquette

00:39:08

Speaker 1: because can I also say that just like our befuddled boy, wonderful gentleman here has said about his friends, how much can I really expect of other, you know, teenage preteen boys,

00:39:21

Speaker 1: you, my friend do your befuddled boy are also a teenage boy and frankly you're already like off the charts in terms of politeness and what one could expect from a teenager. So I think and that's not to put down teenagers is just realistically you're developing, you're growing, you're learning things we all are frankly, but it's, it's so you're so ahead of the game already and I think that so many of the things you're curious about a we can give very quick and easy answers to and also just put you in a category of someone who is already so aware and so polite. So please just continue being yourself and

00:40:01

Speaker 1: and don't worry too much. You really are not going to misstep far with the way you you seem to think about this kind of interaction. Absolutely. And there were a number of questions here and I think we should just go through and address them all sort of one after another, go for it. And I think there are a couple of themes that are going to emerge pretty quickly that are that are also worth addressing.

00:40:22

Speaker 1: Um so this begins with the question of going over to a friend's house and in some ways your role as a guest is going to give you a lot of clues as to what your best course of action is

00:40:34

Speaker 1: slightly complicated by the fact that you're being hosted by a couple of people. There's the friend who I'm guessing or the friends that are about your age. And then there's also the parents of those people are the guardians of those people that are responsible and the fact that you're just aware of

00:40:49

Speaker 1: those layers that you've got a couple of sets of hosts, I think is a really good place to start.

00:40:56

Speaker 1: I would really focus on my friend there, the person who's done the inviting and they're the person that I would turn to first, although

00:41:04

Speaker 1: I love the way that you present yourself to the adults that you offer to shake hands, that you introduce yourself and that you thank them for you. Said allowing me over, I might do a slight tweak for inviting me over.

00:41:16

Speaker 1: Yeah, but the basics there are just nailed you introduce yourself. You do it in a way that's a little bit structured and formalized and

00:41:25

Speaker 1: that you you thank them for having you. That's just that's just a plus and you don't have to introduce yourself every time. Obviously once you know them, you can drop the introduction and say whatever name they've asked you to call them, whether that's with their title or whether that's just their first name, it's perfectly okay for you to then just address the parent. Hey, how's it going, bob. Thanks so much for having me over again. Love getting to play with Jamison. You know,

00:41:50

Speaker 1: it's like you're just such a delight in my head. All right, keep going, dad. It's funny, it's not getting to know someone. I actually think that makes the question that follows kind of interesting. The idea of, should I bring a gift, should I bring a little host gift? And

00:42:07

Speaker 1: sometimes that thought is triggered by this is my first time going somewhere. Oftentimes people when they're when they're invited to someone's home for the first time? The idea of bringing a gift is something that comes up and

00:42:19

Speaker 1: is oftentimes a good idea, particularly in more formal situations.

00:42:23

Speaker 1: This is a more of a friendly situation. I like that you're thinking about honoring and formalizing that first visit, but between high school friends, the expectation that you bring a gift on a first visit is not something that I would hold myself accountable to or four. In fact, I like honoring the informal nature of the relationship, the friendly nature of the relationship. Emily thought that it was precisely those

00:42:48

Speaker 1: close friendships that didn't require gift exchanges when you just visited someone's home

00:42:54

Speaker 1: and Emily really appreciated that that you could just go visit someone and know them well enough that there wasn't an expectation that you bring something with you and that that was very liberating for her.

00:43:05

Speaker 1: The other thought though, that came up to me as lizzie talked about getting to know these people better. It might be that as you get to know them better. You play around a little bit, you might say to yourself, I love doing this. Maybe I bring the some flowers for my friend's parents and just put myself in that category. That's just ridiculously next level.

00:43:24

Speaker 1: Lizzie is laughing at me right now for even suggesting, come on, you're telling a 13 year old boy, like inspire him to bring flowers. I don't think it's a bad thing. I think it's very cute. I think it's super unrealistic. Just so you know, befuddled boy, you don't have to show up at a playdate with flowers. Yes, it would blow you out of the water, but it might not be

00:43:43

Speaker 1: and out of the water

00:43:45

Speaker 1: blown experience that you need to aim for, I want to put that out there to not a need to

00:43:51

Speaker 1: fun, absolutely, I was really thinking about it from the perspective of if this is something that you would just love to do and want to play with

00:44:00

Speaker 1: that I would wait till I got to know people a little better to play around with that, that might be a way that you could access and engage with that without um

00:44:10

Speaker 1: it feeling awkward, it does remind me just a little bit of a reality check for us to hosts of this podcast that if you were a 13 year old kid listening to this, it could sound like there, there's just so much expectation on your social behavior and I just want to reiterate again that

00:44:28

Speaker 1: while all the things we talk about on this podcast are really good things to learn, adopt, think about and be self reflective about, they aren't all things that are going to be implemented in every interaction that you have and that's just an important point out there for adults and kids listening to like the kids,

00:44:49

Speaker 1: you guys get so much leeway, lean into it, enjoy it.

00:44:53

Speaker 1: So I want to get into the, what happens after this introduction after you've walked through the door and the question about Shoes on or shoes off is one that I would direct to my most immediate host, whoever is available, if my friend was standing there, I would ask them,

00:45:10

Speaker 1: oh are we shoes on or shoes off today or is this a shoes on or shoes off house

00:45:15

Speaker 1: and I would do the same thing with the jacket. I would ask my friend, I've got a jacket, where what should I do with my jacket and your host is going to tell you they're not gonna leave you standing there with that question unanswered,

00:45:29

Speaker 1: lean into that role of guests, ask your host and you're going to be in really, really good shape. Even one that

00:45:36

Speaker 1: isn't anticipating that question or hasn't answered it for you in advance.

00:45:40

Speaker 1: You can kind of take the role as a guest and a guest playing their role well, inspires that host guest dance, you're going to draw the best hosting behaviors out of your host friend by being a good guest because what do you think about the next set of questions that come up regarding the sibling when your sibling comes on, sort of and you're a teenager? I don't think of them as play dates, but

00:46:04

Speaker 1: but that like when your sibling does end up coming over to play with your friends as well, how do you think an older sibling and you're older? I mean your oldest, I'm the youngest, so maybe we have differing perspectives on this, but what do you think about your role of guiding or responsibility for your little sibling on a play date? I think that

00:46:24

Speaker 1: those two thoughts are the two different tracks that I want to develop and I want to keep some space between. I think that there is a really good and appropriate role for an older sibling to play

00:46:35

Speaker 1: that's doing some guiding, that's helping the siblings that you just know so well and have a good an established relationship with

00:46:43

Speaker 1: navigate a new situation

00:46:46

Speaker 1: at their best. And I think that there's a role that you can play as a sibling. That might be a very natural, easy role for you to play and

00:46:53

Speaker 1: all sibling relationships are different. That might be something that comes easy. It might be something that's not as easy. I feel like I could hear you reminding me like if we went on a play date when we were kids together, I feel like I could hear you being like, lizzie, don't forget to take your shoes off because you know that I'm someone who forgets to take my shoes off all the time

00:47:10

Speaker 1: and I could see that being a little super easy correction.

00:47:14

Speaker 1: But if it was something bigger, I think this kind of sounds horrible, tell me if this sounds horrible, but I feel like I would kind of let my sibling do their thing

00:47:26

Speaker 1: and if it was really inappropriate, I might talk to mom and dad about it, but not as like a tattletale throw him under the bus thing, like as like a

00:47:34

Speaker 1: hey guys, I'm not sure that Becky understands that like we're really not supposed to just help ourselves to someone's fridge without asking first. You know, like, I don't, I don't know, is that ridiculous? Is that great? Because as you said, it might be

00:47:51

Speaker 1: entirely appropriate, even good etiquette to guide that. Ultimately you're not responsible for them and their behavior.

00:47:57

Speaker 1: Now, maybe at 13, you're talking about a babysitting situation where you are responsible, where the good point, the accountability is really on you to help take care of them. It's after school and you go over to a friend's house or something like that. But it is also my guess that

00:48:13

Speaker 1: your parents are not expecting you to be the parent and to do the parenting and that if there are issues that come up that require more of you that require you to start to step into that role of doing parenting, not just taking responsibility in the moment, but either applying discipline or

00:48:30

Speaker 1: making decisions about how to teach these skills that I think that that your parents are really wanting to probably be the parenting for that and would want to know about issues or questions that came up that were beyond what you felt comfortable dealing with. So I don't think of it as tackling, I really think of it as getting the bigger issues in front of the people that want to deal with

00:48:49

Speaker 1: maybe just a smidge. But I think it's okay

00:48:53

Speaker 1: and it's also were saying that siblings are as they often are, unless they're twins, they are growing at different rates, they're developing at different times in their lives together. And that can often I think make an older want to correct it often makes a younger grow up faster, but

00:49:12

Speaker 1: be careful about nit picking someone who's younger than you too much because it can start to wear and and create an uncomfortable sort of dynamic between the two of you.

00:49:22

Speaker 1: There are other places where it's going to be exactly what's helpful and what helps that younger siblings grow and learn and get that little edge up from being able to see someone come before them. You know, interesting dynamics of where you fall in the sibling chain. You know, I think it is important to ensure that both, both the fact that we grow and change in different ways and the sibling relationships

00:49:44

Speaker 1: ebb and flow and grow and change also and that you might be at a place in a relationship with a sibling where that's a very easy role for you to play and it's really appreciated by your hosts And there might be other times in that relationship where that's not so easy and it really is

00:50:00

Speaker 1: best to lean on your parents to do that kind of supervision of your siblings,

00:50:06

Speaker 1: the little boy. You said it would be cool if we read this question on the podcast. I am not a good judge of cool. I am firmly in the dad world where I get in trouble when I declare things cool, but I think your question was really cool. Thank you for sending it in

00:50:21

Speaker 1: and we hope our answer helps. Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind, That's 8028585463. You can also reach us on social media on twitter. We are at Emily Post on instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette. Just remember use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the show.

00:50:58

Speaker 1: Yeah,

00:51:00

Speaker 1: if you enjoy awesome etiquette, please consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette. Where memberships start at just a dollar a month, you'll get an ads free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content Plus you'll feel great knowing that you helped keep awesome etiquette on the air

00:51:22

Speaker 1: and to those of you who are already sustaining members. Thank you so much for your support.

00:51:28

Speaker 1: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer in the topics we cover today, we have feedback from Ray on a question and episode 347 about responding to compliments.

00:51:41

Speaker 1: Hello, thank you so much for your awesome podcast. I was intrigued by the question about how to respond to compliments on an outfitter item of clothing. I am very intentional about the way I dress. Maybe that's the reason I tend to get a lot of compliments.

00:51:56

Speaker 1: Yes, A simple thank you is sufficient, but it can feel a little awkward. I will often add something like it's one of my favorite colors or I love the way it feels on.

00:52:07

Speaker 1: I couldn't resist the pattern or graphic or slogan etcetera.

00:52:11

Speaker 1: Sometimes these lead the conversations sometimes not, but I feel like I've accepted the compliment without taking credit for the item or outfit.

00:52:21

Speaker 1: Thanks again for all you do to help us live more graciously with warm regards. Ray. Ray, thank you so much and this is such a great reminder, you are right. It doesn't just have to be a thank you, even though the thank you is sufficient enough. I remember at one

00:52:37

Speaker 1: we had received this question and I don't I don't think it's the one that Ray is referencing. I think she, I think Ray is referencing a different one,

00:52:44

Speaker 1: but where it was about accepting compliments for your dog felt wrong because it wasn't like a color that you love. Well, maybe maybe your dog is the color that you love, but it wasn't something you would personally picked, although your dog is probably something you personally fixed. So

00:52:59

Speaker 1: there were these, these moments where pet owner was very concerned that they were somehow taking too much credit for their dogs individuality

00:53:07

Speaker 1: and that was another word just to thank you. Could suffice, but I I love the idea of bringing a little more conversation to it. Oh, I got it from my favorite store. Oh it's a hand me down from my mother. Oh, this so that something about it I think is really nice because someone is, they're complimenting you on the piece for sure.

00:53:22

Speaker 1: Something I liked about these replies to is that they didn't always minimize or deflect the compliment.

00:53:28

Speaker 1: There's something really nice sometimes about receiving a compliment

00:53:32

Speaker 1: and saying, you know, that's something that matters to me too. I put a little effort into that. I I love these patterns or these colors or something like that is another way to affirm somebody and I think it's a nice thought.

00:53:42

Speaker 1: Thank you for the feedback ray

00:53:45

Speaker 1: and thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please keep them coming. You can send your feedback or update to awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com or leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind that's 8028585463.

00:54:01

Speaker 1: Mhm.

00:54:03

Speaker 1: Yeah,

00:54:06

Speaker 1: it's time for our post script segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette and today we are so pleased to hear another installment from lizzie's interview series with Michelle achieve body in this episode, lizzie and Michelle discussed virtual and drive thru funeral experiences

00:54:23

Speaker 1: Michelle well I still have you for a couple more minutes. I wanted to ask about one of the biggest changes we all experienced collectively frankly across the globe over the past two years, which is during this pandemic, how we were able to gather

00:54:40

Speaker 1: and grieve together changed greatly because we weren't able to gather in many circumstances. I know you told in our very first interview, a great story about a woman who rather than kind of bring the closest of the family, she picked

00:54:54

Speaker 1: Different people from different important parts of her husband's life to come and that way you could celebrate all his life sort of as opposed to his closest most cherished people and and that was a really fascinating example of how someone dealt with the difficulty of a 10 person limit on a funeral.

00:55:14

Speaker 1: We've seen things like zoom, you know, come into play and I don't know whether you would call them drive by or drive through or parade style. Um you know, whether it's a wake or a service itself, even almost like drive in services.

00:55:32

Speaker 1: What do you think are some really good

00:55:35

Speaker 1: tips because some of these practices are staying with us even as we are able to gather in larger numbers. How do you kind of see us absorbing these things? Well,

00:55:45

Speaker 2: I do think that some of these things, especially using zoom

00:55:49

Speaker 2: is probably something that is going to remain a bit more common because there's always people that can't attend. Um, you know, it's hard to get time off of work or you just lived too far

00:55:58

Speaker 1: away or

00:55:59

Speaker 2: maybe you've decided to come back and spend time with the person when they were dying. So you can't come back for the funeral or you know, an unexpected death. I mean it's just, it's just not feasible to travel in that amount of time.

00:56:11

Speaker 2: So one of things that was, I think really hard with the transition to, to using zoom is that zoom as a tool.

00:56:19

Speaker 2: Um, you can't just do the same thing, but record it and have people, you know, sitting in their living rooms and watching the funeral

00:56:27

Speaker 2: because you know, as I said again and again, a funeral serves a specific need. So, you know, we're really kind of getting down into what do, what do people need from, from a funeral experience and then how do we translate that into something that is going to involve a technology like zoom. So I think that there's a bunch of things that make

00:56:46

Speaker 2: a zoom funeral

00:56:47

Speaker 2: more successful or potentially

00:56:50

Speaker 1: potentially.

00:56:51

Speaker 2: Yeah. And, and, and buy more successful. I mean having people get, have a fulfilling experience from attending the funeral as opposed to, you know, just logging in and watching and so I think that that one of these things is really to think about

00:57:05

Speaker 2: finding ways to make it a collective experience.

00:57:08

Speaker 2: So taking things that, that are common parts of funeral rites when we do gather together in person, like singing together or reciting a prayer together or a poem that somebody particularly love

00:57:20

Speaker 2: and making sure that everybody that's signing into zoom has the lyrics, you know, can cue up the song um or you know, whatever it is so that they can all participate in that way or that it's a moment of silence where everybody is going to be sitting um for a period of time. I think that that's really helpful at the beginning to sort of settle people into this experience.

00:57:39

Speaker 2: Um, so I think that that is a really

00:57:42

Speaker 2: good things and to think about inviting people to participate. I

00:57:47

Speaker 1: feel like that seems almost counterintuitive because we've all been on zoom conference calls and seeing how difficult they can be at times to participate in. How do you sort of

00:57:58

Speaker 1: uh corral that experience so that, so that it doesn't just become a lot of people talking over each other.

00:58:04

Speaker 2: Yeah. Well and I think this is this is this thing about like not trying to do the same thing really plan ahead and design this ceremony. So I think that one of things that's becoming more common even in in person funerals is that, you know, somebody's

00:58:17

Speaker 2: is, you know, anybody that wants to stand up and tell a story now can write and that is always a tricky place as a funeral director because when do you cut people off? You know, like if you've got a reception that starting in half an hour and somebody like me who is very long winded, gets up to tell a story. That's what's supposed to be the close of the funeral. How do you, how do you negotiate that?

00:58:37

Speaker 2: And so when you're planning something on zoom, I think it gives you a little bit of an opportunity to give people a set of expectations. You know,

00:58:44

Speaker 2: keep your remarks to two minutes or less. You can even bring in something where, you know, you're giving everybody a chance to say one word or sentence, you know, so it's a collective activity. But

00:58:57

Speaker 2: what that does, I think is that it allows people to feel seen and heard and be more than just a box on everyone else's screen. So another thing that I think is really helpful for this for, for online funerals, but also for the kind of the parade drive by drive in drive thru style funerals, is to really tap into your like super creative friends.

00:59:19

Speaker 2: I'm talking a little bit about having the circle of people who are going to care the most

00:59:24

Speaker 2: and, and maybe that creative friend isn't quite in that circle, but you know, if you've got a scrap booker and an artist and musician, you know, somebody that is used to kind of engaging crowds or creating art

00:59:38

Speaker 2: to come up with some sort of activity or way they could get crowd participation going,

00:59:44

Speaker 2: I have seen some really beautiful things where like everybody got a piece of fabric and got to draw on the piece of fabric and then that was a parade style funeral and then they put it in their window.

00:59:54

Speaker 2: Um, but you could even do that on his own funeral where everybody holds it up to their screen and everybody can see what was created or you can take a picture of it, right, and do a slide show of, of of this. So

01:00:05

Speaker 2: things that get people engaged and I've just always been

01:00:09

Speaker 2: really impressed by what creative people can come up with. And so, and we all have those people in our lives. So again, kind of recognizing when somebody's talent might be a particular use. And again, it really goes back to that creating that collective experience. Another thing that's changed is that

01:00:26

Speaker 2: even a parade or a zoom funeral is going to have a limit.

01:00:31

Speaker 2: And we talked a little bit about how, you know, death is a community event for people that are a part of their community. There's always gonna be some people that maybe aren't comfortable showing up for the funeral or aren't going to,

01:00:43

Speaker 2: I don't want to make the guest list because it makes them sound like their grief isn't as valid, but for whatever reason, you know,

01:00:50

Speaker 1: they can't be, there

01:00:52

Speaker 2: can be there.

01:00:53

Speaker 2: Um, and I found that the obituary can be a really great tool of extending that collective experience. And so, okay, um actually, if I can share

01:01:03

Speaker 1: a little story, Yeah, no, you know, I mean, I know what's coming audience and I actually really appreciate this was another thing that made it into the book, because it was such a I think

01:01:13

Speaker 1: it was it was such a fabulous way to extend the collective experience to the greater community as an opportunity.

01:01:19

Speaker 1: And I think that was really impressive. So, yes, please share this story.

01:01:24

Speaker 2: It came early in the pandemic for me, and it was wonderful because it just it showed me so much of what is possible when we're willing to kind of accept the circumstances and then figure out what we need from this. And so the person that had died was just somebody that was super visible, vibrant, an integral part of the community, and

01:01:45

Speaker 2: when I was talking to their wife about how to invite the community in and whether they had any sort of rituals or something like that. And what she came up with was that she and her husband every night, they would have, you know, a martini together and they had a special toast that they said,

01:02:03

Speaker 2: and so she put it in the obituary and and, you know, the obituary, I think just, you know, published on on monday, so people had a couple of days to get ready, but it was just like, you know, on saturday at this time, would you please

01:02:14

Speaker 2: you know, mix a drink of your choice doesn't have to be alcoholic, but raise a glass and say this toast and that was what was in the obituary. I love that. And what was beautiful about that is that

01:02:25

Speaker 2: she and her family were together in her house

01:02:29

Speaker 2: and her Children knew that this was happening, but she didn't and so when they were going to raise their toast, they had her go to the window and she said, why, why are we going to the window? And she looked out the window and all of her neighbors were standing out in their driveways except for one woman that couldn't leave her house and she had the lights on in her window and they all toasted from their driveways and from their window

01:02:49

Speaker 2: and and

01:02:50

Speaker 2: sad as loud as they could the toast. And so she was able to see that and I'm getting emotional

01:02:57

Speaker 1: decision, you know, I'm sitting here crying on the other side of the zoom right now. It's

01:03:05

Speaker 2: just so beautiful and it was so important for you know, even for the people on his block to say, you know, we see you, we love you, you know, we're going to miss

01:03:17

Speaker 2: you. The man that had died and we are going to be here for you, his family.

01:03:22

Speaker 1: Really

01:03:23

Speaker 2: beautiful. Another thing I found out later was that people took pictures of themselves and then shared them with the family afterwards raising the toast and shared what they drank and

01:03:34

Speaker 2: it became not just that one moment, but this extended series of moments where over and over again, they were getting reminders of how people had,

01:03:42

Speaker 2: I felt so grateful to have this chance to participate and to share their story about what they did.

01:03:47

Speaker 1: That's really beautiful. I know that we talked to you about other ideas that people might do is to wear the person's favorite color. And obviously the obituary tell you what color to wear on a particular day, whether that's their birthday or

01:04:02

Speaker 1: something. I don't know what, you know, pick something special.

01:04:06

Speaker 1: And that that's a really visual one that when you're out and about that day and you see blue, you just wonder, you know, like is that someone celebrating gym or something like that? And

01:04:17

Speaker 2: again it allows for that collective interaction and you might even ask you, are you doing this in memory of so and so, and then you have a chance to share a story. Yeah.

01:04:26

Speaker 2: You know, there was just this isolation that we were all feeling during the pandemic. And so it was a way to feel held in community and it's something that I would love to see continue.

01:04:36

Speaker 1: Um the

01:04:38

Speaker 2: other thing that, that really kind of speaking of old things that came back was was letter writing.

01:04:42

Speaker 2: Um and people that took the time to hand write letters to families and to share. Um and so I think that that was another really beautiful thing that I hope comes back,

01:04:51

Speaker 2: but it does come with the kind of the last thing I think that really makes all the successful is is to have a bit of a sense of humor I know can sound strange when we're talking about grief and we're talking about after somebody has died, but

01:05:04

Speaker 2: there is always room for joy. This is something that I have learned in, you know, my decade of, of being somebody that works in in death and with people who are dying is that there's always room for joy and that laughter is such an important part of the grieving experience. So whether it's, you know, just being able to laugh at that one person in zoom that can't figure out how to unmute themselves, you know, or somebody's naked kid running by in the background because kids are kids.

01:05:32

Speaker 2: Yeah,

01:05:33

Speaker 2: or or just recognizing that maybe you're going to be in a car parade and and half the parade is gonna make it through that red light. And

01:05:41

Speaker 1: on the other hand, and

01:05:43

Speaker 2: and the person at the light doesn't know where anybody is going and you know,

01:05:47

Speaker 1: and so

01:05:48

Speaker 2: just to make room for for that, because I think that it just, it allows

01:05:54

Speaker 2: something that had to adapt to a set of circumstances that were added to stress and to the difficulty in grieving um, to make a little bit room for that. Again, people are going to be trying their best and, and sometimes it's going to look a little wonky. The thing that I learned walking through this with, with families is that

01:06:14

Speaker 2: even when there are restrictions, when they are curve balls as you said,

01:06:18

Speaker 2: you know, you can still absolutely honor the person that has died and you can still experience and be held

01:06:28

Speaker 2: in your, in your grief. It might be different from what you were expecting. Um, but hopefully it's still going to make you,

01:06:37

Speaker 2: I feel like you had a meaningful experience as you move through those

01:06:41

Speaker 1: initial stages of grief. Thank you so much for once again being here with us and for talking about some of the, I almost feel like we have to call them

01:06:50

Speaker 1: the new old experiences because green burial for so long was as you said, how we did things,

01:06:57

Speaker 1: but and also for just discussing, especially from your perspective what it was like and what we can expect as we navigate these sort of new elements to burial and end of life ceremony. I really appreciate your perspective and it certainly opened my mind up a lot

01:07:15

Speaker 1: to just the whole idea of how to handle grief and dying and morning

01:07:20

Speaker 1: during difficult times

01:07:22

Speaker 1: lizzie, thank you so much for putting together this series with Michelle. We have heard a lot of feedback about it. I really enjoyed it. I learned the law and I think the audience has also many, many things. Thank you so much Michelle and I have become very good friends throughout this process. So it's been a delight to get to work with her.

01:07:42

Speaker 1: But I also, I love how much she has

01:07:46

Speaker 1: opened me up to talking about death and dying and experiences and when we wrote that Hard Times chapter and when you and I were going through it so much of the conversations even that we've had since the first writing of it were influenced by this later series and I just really want to appreciate um everyone kind of going there with us. It's a little bit different than our usual post scripts but I really, really appreciate us tackling the topics.

01:08:29

Speaker 1: We like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world and that can come in so many delightful forms. Today we have a salute from Amy

01:08:43

Speaker 1: dear dan and lizzie. I would like to offer an etiquette salute to the kind woman on my flight back from san Francisco

01:08:49

Speaker 1: on our flight on Alaska Airlines from san Francisco to boston. My husband had a sudden bout of air sickness that left him throwing up all over himself myself and the seat in front of him.

01:09:01

Speaker 1: Normally this would be embarrassing enough but then the time of covid, when any illness makes everyone panic, we both panicked. He was uncomfortable, he was upset and he felt awful.

01:09:14

Speaker 1: The woman across the aisle from us calmly and kindly reached into her bag and handed us a very large pack of baby wipes.

01:09:22

Speaker 1: It allowed us to clean him up enough that he could get from the window seat to the restroom without making more of a mess and let me fix up the seats around us so we could finish the flight cleanly and that our flight attendants didn't have even more to deal with after the flight.

01:09:38

Speaker 1: The look on her face when she handed it to me with a small smile saying, hey things happen. Here you go.

01:09:45

Speaker 1: Made me go from upset and scared to oh man! This will be a funny story later in about two seconds I just want to once again thank the kind woman in the row across from us on our flight for changing. What could have been a horrible situation to one that can become a funny story later on.

01:10:05

Speaker 1: Hopefully everyone will remember this as we move forward

01:10:08

Speaker 1: to try and have some sympathy for their neighbor. Amy

01:10:12

Speaker 1: amy, thank you so much for that. It is that is such a terrible position to find yourself in And what a just true relief, delight all of the above to find a person who wasn't gonna judge you but who was who was going to smile and offer something that might help

01:10:32

Speaker 1: and had something that could actually help as, as someone who now travels with uh like a full stack or a full cart, whatever container of baby wipes pretty much everywhere I go, it's in one cards and the other guards in the back back, it's in the office bag. Um They do, they come in so handy and how nice to have somebody just show up at the right moment and to relieve that stress and put you at ease. Thank you so much for this salute. It's a really nice reminder of how much a helping hand can really make a difference.

01:11:01

Speaker 1: Mhm

01:11:02

Speaker 1: And thank you all for listening and thank you to everyone who sent us something. Please connect with us and share this show with anyone. You can anyway, you can,

01:11:14

Speaker 1: you can send us your next question feedback or salute by email to awesome etiquette. Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a message or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463 on twitter. We are at Emily post hints on instagram, we are at Emily Post Institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette and the Emily Post Institute,

01:11:37

Speaker 1: please consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette where our memberships start at just a dollar a month. You can also subscribe to the ads version of our show on Spotify or your favorite podcast app and please consider leaving us a review.

01:11:54

Speaker 1: It helps our show ranking, which helps more people find awesome etiquette.

01:11:59

Speaker 1: Our show is edited by Kris Albertine, an assistant produced by Bridget Dowd. Thanks Chris Bridget.

01:12:17

Speaker 1: Mhm.