Episode 375 - Card Sharp

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Speaker 1: maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social goodness. See it's old fashioned.

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Speaker 1: Watch how busy post and they're supposed to act as host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person. Real friendliness.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm.

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Speaker 1: Hello

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Speaker 2: and welcome to awesome etiquette

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Speaker 1: where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty.

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Speaker 2: On today's show, we take your questions on choosing bridesmaids, email thread considerations.

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Speaker 2: Another version of a cash bar and how to handle unnecessary comments when you're out and about

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Speaker 1: for awesome etiquette sustaining members are question is about a not so tacky baby shower gift

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Speaker 2: plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a postscript on holiday cards.

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Speaker 1: All that coming up

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Speaker 2: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute. I'm lizzie Post

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Speaker 1: and I'm dan post standing.

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Speaker 2: Hey guys,

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Speaker 1: how's it going?

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Speaker 2: It's it's going. You and I are on the home stretch of edits in the, in the 20th edition and I need to give props where props are due because

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Speaker 2: our sunday editing session was like interspersed throughout your kind of sunday home life, which by the way, was like just so our audience knows was like the first weekend where dan's back to a monday through friday weekends off schedule. We just didn't happen to have the weekend off because we had to work so much on the manuscript.

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Speaker 2: But it was interspersed between you hosting and that was like it was like you were hosting.

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Speaker 1: I was And it felt like a really big deal, this was

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Speaker 1: and I was saying to you, I think maybe the biggest gathering that pooch and I have had at our house in almost two years now

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Speaker 2: to which I replied, you lie thinking of our cousins gathering the other day, but you said that maybe the guests and just the fact that this wasn't family, really put it over over the edge.

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Speaker 1: It really did somehow, hosting family doesn't always feel like hosting to me,

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Speaker 2: like we're gonna be way more forgiving and like,

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Speaker 1: and I try to hit a lot of the same marks, but there's a certain familiarity to it. And

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Speaker 1: so this was a group of pooches, friends that she knows quite well and they were all opting to get together as they do, but they wanted to invite their families, they wanted to start to introduce the important people in their lives to each other. So we ended up being in the rotation, the hosting house for this particular gathering, that turned out to be whatever average family size was for rather than the one previously. So four times the size of their usual get togethers and

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Speaker 1: was he posed?

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Speaker 1: It went off without a hitch, It felt

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Speaker 2: really good. Oh good. Oh good. What was the total kind of the audience? What were some of the elements of the party that you had to think about imbalance

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Speaker 2: on top of it, you have the added and I'm trying to balance like work like

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Speaker 1: it was a lot of the classic stuff just there's the current situation where we've got a combination of vaccinated and unvaccinated people. There were a lot of Children at the party so

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Speaker 1: we had to navigate, setting up indoor and outdoor spaces and being sure that everybody was comfortable with and understood what the expectations were as far as interacting inside and outside vaccinated, unvaccinated. But I'll tell you all

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Speaker 2: of that it

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Speaker 1: felt easy to do at this like

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Speaker 2: familiar on our lives and

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Speaker 1: people kind of knew what that dance felt like as a host and as a guest and it wasn't too difficult to navigate. In fact pooch. And I didn't really

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Speaker 1: talk a lot about it until about the day before where I just sort of checked in with her and said

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Speaker 1: are you on this, are

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Speaker 2: you feeling

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Speaker 1: pretty good about? And she said yeah sure is what I'm planning to do and did, I've talked to these people, I'm going to talk to those people but it wasn't

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Speaker 1: it wasn't something that we had to coordinate on and invest a lot of time in. It was something that happened as part of that back and forth invite R. S. V. P. What can I bring, what are we doing about mass, what are we doing about kids?

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Speaker 1: There was another complicating factor though and that was that you had a party where there was

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Speaker 1: there was you had a party where there was a group of people that knew each other very well and we're quite close and then the people associated with them who really didn't know each other that well. Maybe I'd met this husband before, but not the other

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Speaker 1: two or 3 Partners.

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Speaker 2: So in this particular case, all the wives kind of gather regularly as a group and but they don't typically gather as whole families. So it's it's I see what you're saying now.

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Speaker 1: So we were navigating a lot of the usual party manners, making introductions, making first introductions, remembering a lot of names, trying to keep track of

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Speaker 1: different names and people and whose

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Speaker 2: kids belong to who exactly what are the relationships these

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Speaker 1: to live in the same down and know each other a little better that person is coming from the other direction and doesn't know anyone got to be sure that they're well taken care of all of those

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Speaker 1: little hosting concerns and considerations that come up when you're dealing with first meetings and new encounters. And again, I haven't been doing a lot of those for the last two years. So it was kind of exciting. And I was wanting to report back to the show that a lot of those skills

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Speaker 1: came back very naturally and by the end of the party

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Speaker 1: we had that other delightful and familiar feeling of people saying this was so much fun. I'd really like to do this again and maybe I can host all of these same people next time or the next time we're going to get everyone together. Maybe we could do it at my place. Or even those little side conversations boy,

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Speaker 1: this was so much fun. But would be really nice to be able to introduce our families a little more time. Maybe we could make a plan to do something at some point.

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Speaker 1: All in all, it felt so good to flex some of those muscles and to feel, I won't say a return to normal, but I need to feel a new normal emerging or

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Speaker 1: to feel some familiarity and some comfort in this new space that we're operating in

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Speaker 1: while still making some new social connections.

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Speaker 2: Very nice, very nice. I am glad that you guys had such a good time. I was also glad that we were able to get our work done too. I thought like the day balanced out really nicely between everything that you were juggling and I know those weren't the only two things on the menu,

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Speaker 2: but it was really encouraging to hear how happy you were when you came to our evening session about how wonderfully everything had gone. That's like a real you know those positive vibes are things I know you haven't felt in a really long time when it comes to hosting and so I was happy for you that you got to

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Speaker 1: experience that well and it did turn on those etiquette muscles just a little bit. When I went back into the book all of a sudden I was saying to myself, oh yeah, like what

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Speaker 2: our host guest chapter just got my better by your, by your weekend plans. That is all really cool. And thank you for sharing. And do you think that maybe we should get to some questions?

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Speaker 1: Let's do it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah,

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Speaker 2: awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions, you can email them to awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. Leave a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463. Or you can reach us on social media on twitter. We're at Emily post inst on instagram, we are at Emily Post Institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette.

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Speaker 2: Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media posts so that we know you want your question on the

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Speaker 1: show.

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Speaker 1: Our first question is about reciprocating bridesmaids.

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Speaker 1: Hi lizzie and dan, thank you for your wonderful show and the amazing advice that you provide.

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Speaker 1: I am writing in on behalf of my friend mirin who recently got engaged and is in a bridesmaid predicament.

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Speaker 1: She has four friends that she would like to ask to be in her bridal party. Her predicament is that her cousin Danielle had asked her to be a bridesmaid in her wedding

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Speaker 1: Due to COVID-19 Danielle canceled her formal wedding and was married in the backyard with only parents and siblings present in the spring of 2020.

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Speaker 1: While Mayron was a bridesmaid, she was not at the wedding due to Covid

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Speaker 1: for a bit of background, mirren has never been close to Danielle growing up. They saw each other at some holidays as adults. They see each other about one or two times a year and text each other on birthdays

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Speaker 1: Other than that. They do not stay in touch.

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Speaker 1: Mirren was actually very surprised when she was asked to be in Daniel's wedding.

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Speaker 1: So here's the question is mirin obligated to ask Danielle to be a bridesmaid in her own wedding, sincerely helping bridesmaid,

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Speaker 2: hi, helping bridesmaid, thank you so much for the question. It is totally an etiquette classic and the very quick and simple answer is that no, your friend Mirin does not have to ask her cousin Daniel

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Speaker 2: to be a bridesmaid. The issue of being a bridesmaid is not one that involves reciprocity. You don't need to have someone just because they had you and they don't need to have you just because you had them in the wedding party and so

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Speaker 2: it can feel a little awkward. I don't want to deny that. And Daniel and this will be what you and I explore throughout the question, but from a straight etiquette standpoint. Each bride gets to choose their own bridal party

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Speaker 2: completely based on what's going to work for them and their wedding. It has very little to do with with whose weddings you've attended as a bridal attendant.

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Speaker 1: I like the simplicity of the answer cousin lizzie post

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Speaker 2: as

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Speaker 1: you know, I also love complexity. So I also want to acknowledge that

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Speaker 1: like you said that that idea that that reciprocity

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Speaker 1: is something that you would keep an eye on or think about as you build your list. I don't think it's a terrible thought, but it certainly doesn't constrain you in any way. It's not a, it's not a have to, it's a you may

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Speaker 1: and

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Speaker 1: in regards to that and sort of the amount of weight that I would give to it. I think there's some mitigating factors here that

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Speaker 1: in my mind even make it a smaller factor, all of the complications around the way the wedding plans changed and the way participation happen, but maybe didn't happen in person. I think those things in some ways make that equation easier to balance. Not that you that you, that you have to factor them in to begin with. But

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Speaker 1: I do think that in this particular case,

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Speaker 1: I would be very comfortable saying that that really sounds like a situation where you should not feel,

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't even say obligated, but that that pull in the direction of reciprocity,

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Speaker 2: I want to give a second just because we do have time on this answer to flesh out the other side of it a little bit, which is if you're a person who

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Speaker 2: thinks or hopes maybe that they will be asked to be in a wedding party

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Speaker 2: and it doesn't happen. The polite thing to do is to accept this and just move on very happily as a guest and I say happily and I understand that that that's gonna take some getting to um I myself have had people who I,

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Speaker 2: I really would have liked to have been asked, I really would have liked to have been a part of things and and also due to the COVID-19 pandemic that you know, wasn't even a guest that some of these people's weddings, you know, but it can

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Speaker 2: feel like such a hit, especially when you are really close with someone. I understand that Aaron and Danielle actually aren't as close as some cousins might be,

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Speaker 2: but for some cousins, this could feel like your sister or your brother or another such like sibling, close family member. And it can really feel like a sting when you see four friends, some of whom may not even be friends with this person in another couple of years, you know, asked to stand in instead.

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Speaker 2: And the best thing I was ever able to tell myself when I was in that disappointing position

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Speaker 2: was that people do the best that they can with the moment that they are in and

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Speaker 2: this act of being in someone's bridal party does not in any way, shape or form actually say how much they love me or that I love them or that we are close, the particular instance that I am thinking of left me.

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Speaker 2: Like it didn't, it didn't, it didn't decrease the memories or it didn't like eliminate or erase the memories that I have of being sisterly close with this person. It didn't,

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Speaker 2: you know, make me feel like I wanted to say no when there is a chance for us to finally get together, you know what I mean? Like it can feel like such a big deal. It can feel like you were left out of such a big moment, but in the totality of your relationship with this person, it's likely very, very small and much less consequential

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Speaker 2: then the moment, if you focus in on the moment, can feel,

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Speaker 1: it's a good reminder and we certainly hear about people being included

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Speaker 1: just because it's considerate of their feelings. We definitely hear examples of people who are included because they're a certain degree of separation within a family. And someone says, you know, it just, it would feel better if I was sure to include the brother on that side as well as the brother on the other side or something like that. And that's a reasonable choice to make. But again, it's not something that you have to do. It really is

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Speaker 1: true that weddings are filled with a lot of tough calls and sometimes there's parameters in place that dictate and sometimes it's a matter of your preference. But

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Speaker 1: as the host of a wedding, as the

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Speaker 1: person who's putting it together and whose big day it is, you've got a lot of latitude in that. I have a light

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Speaker 1: thought that might also be a nice cap to this particular question, which is that

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Speaker 1: we also get a lot of questions on this show about people that feel like they're asked to participate in too many of these events

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Speaker 2: and as this true you can honor

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Speaker 1: as it can be and as good as it can feel to be included, the idea that you would be including people who are more distantly related or who aren't as close or just to have a number that fills out a party

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Speaker 1: um isn't always advisable either. So there's there's plenty of ways to approach a situation like this, to feel good about it,

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Speaker 2: helping bridesmaid, thank you so much for reaching out and asking the question on behalf of your friend and also congratulations to your friend on the engagement. We hope that her wedding goes off without a hitch.

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Speaker 2: Thanks.

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Speaker 1: Mm.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Mhm.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Mhm.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Our next question today is titled thread thoughts, high, awesome etiquette. Thank you so much for your kind thoughtful advice on such a wonderful array of topics. I have a business etiquette question.

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Speaker 2: I was in an email conversation with two of my colleagues and after some back and forth, one colleague asked me something that pertained just to me. I'll be at something that the other colleague might have been interested in.

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Speaker 2: I decided to reply just to the question ask er

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Speaker 2: but now I'm wondering if it would have been correct to keep both colleagues included in the thread

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Speaker 2: for context. The email in question asked me something about a particular piece of work I'm working on and then asked me if I wanted to meet for coffee to discuss it.

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Speaker 2: The other colleague is not involved in this work and a few emails prior had dropped engaging in the email thread but most likely had an interest in following the content of the conversation.

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Speaker 2: Is it best practice to always include all recipients? Ad Infinitum Or is there a point where it becomes appropriate to pick and choose who you respond to. Is there a difference in protocol when one person is just see seed in compared to both

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Speaker 2: being included as primary recipients.

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Speaker 2: I've done this before and had slightly awkward instances where the one colleague I've replied to will later re add those who I deleted back onto the recipient list.

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Speaker 2: My intention was to save people getting unnecessary emails that I thought weren't relevant to them. But on reflection it might have looked like I was trying to keep information from them or exclude them from a conversation.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for any insight. You can provide best wishes

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Speaker 1: Rebecca Rebecca thank you so much for this question. I think that there's a great one, some really rich material here and I appreciate your looking at the big picture and asking the big picture questions about what the standards are. And I also really appreciate your including the context detail

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Speaker 1: and that really helps in terms of fleshing out

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Speaker 1: a more specific answer to your question.

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Speaker 1: Big picture,

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Speaker 1: I think that when there is an email conversation that's happening or back and forth or threat or discussion

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Speaker 1: that you want to keep everybody who's involved involved and that whenever someone ducks out our bows out, you want to acknowledge that in the same way, how you begin things is important. The ways that we end things are also really important and

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Speaker 1: that being the basic understanding, I think the particulars of the case that you're describing actually have some really interesting components

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Speaker 2: get, did can I jump in for one second here? Just like overarching thought that hits me right off the bat, is that if you're going to change the person that you're talking to or go from a group to a single person that you're going to address something too, why not just start a new thread?

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Speaker 1: I think that is the very wise, positive and proactive suggestion and is absolutely what I would do

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Speaker 2: and I know that didn't happen to Rebecca, but like, you know, just up front, that would be a good idea, right?

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Speaker 1: So when I asked myself the big picture question, how would I respond to this? I was having that exact thought and then I saw the context detail that the other person had actually initiated a point of conversation. That wasn't just only of interest to one person was a direct ask of only one person in the group.

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Speaker 1: So the person that sends the email that says I'm interested in this topic, would you like to have lunch with me and that isn't addressed to everybody who's on the email chain?

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Speaker 1: Mm I think that's a little bit rude. I think so too. It's not something I would call someone out over, but I think that it puts you in the position

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Speaker 1: of having to make this choice, which isn't an easy one. It puts the other person in the position of having witnessed an invitation that they weren't included in being issued. Not a terrible offense, but

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Speaker 1: there could be just some little awkwardness around it. It's not

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Speaker 2: right,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't show full social awareness. So I think that you then have a little bit of latitude and how you choose to reply. And I think taking that that reply private stepping into the private space and replying just directly to that email, not including the other person. I think it is reasonable to do in that situation. The other person is already really narrowed

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Speaker 1: the focus of that conversation down. Right, right?

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Speaker 1: You could opt not to do that. You could also include the other person in the reply and

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Speaker 1: they will just witness you saying yes. And then that would give them the added benefit of being able to pick up on anything else that happened related to that conversation afterwards. I don't think you're in too much trouble either way and you didn't put yourself in that position. So I think whatever way you feel best about would be a reasonable way to go from that point.

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Speaker 1: I also loved that the sort of juicy detail that the other person had essentially bowed out or wasn't really participating in the conversation for a while.

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Speaker 2: So that

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Speaker 1: makes me think I would be more comfortable acting like they weren't there or not worrying too much about

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Speaker 1: the impact that witnessing whatever exchange develops has on them. So I think you have to do more latitude.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it brings the person who then asks the more directed at you question and request for coffee. Like it's like it gives more leeway for that to have happened in this way with the third person still attached to the email chain.

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Speaker 2: What I'm very curious about your thoughts on dan though is the setup that Rebecca poses to us next, which is she's remembering back on moments

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Speaker 2: where she did the thing of separating out the email chain only to have either the person who initiated it or someone else on the email chain, bring it all back together. You know, re include people and

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Speaker 2: there are definitely times where I will hit reply and I've forgotten to hit reply all and I'll kind of go, oh shoot, I really should have hit reply all, and I'll rewrite the same email and say, just making sure this gets to everyone, sorry, I forgot to hit reply all, and that kind of gets us all back on track.

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Speaker 2: But I'm curious about the times where it's really important not to be messing with that reply all and to keep it all in, because I do know people managing projects and larger teams or groups or things like that, it can be really important to have all those emails

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Speaker 2: with the particular subject heading that they have grouped together

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Speaker 2: and that that can really make a big difference. What do you think about the etiquette of kind of paying attention to that?

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Speaker 1: I think that if you stick with the original idea, the big picture that you keep, everybody who's included included, you're in the best shape for a lot of the reasons that you that you just talked about,

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Speaker 2: so like have side conversations on the side and don't, like, you know, if you if you need to and then bring the whole thing to the group, if it taps back to the group, but don't

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Speaker 2: restart the chain

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Speaker 1: With just one or

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Speaker 2: two people

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Speaker 2: instead keep that group conversation happening the way it

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Speaker 1: should. Exactly, and for exactly the reason that you mentioned in terms of just getting everybody on the same page later, it being easier to pick up threads and conversations, there is an idea that is raised in this question that's on the other side of that

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Speaker 1: thinking which says maybe don't always include everybody. And

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Speaker 1: the idea that

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Speaker 1: it's important not to spam people or send them a lot of information that's extraneous or not useful to them

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Speaker 1: is

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Speaker 1: an emerging business courtesy.

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Speaker 1: And I think that you can honor that second courtesy if you start to feel like

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Speaker 1: you've just got more people included, the need to be included

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Speaker 1: by acknowledging and ending either an email chain and starting a new one or acknowledging people as you drop them out of the equation in some way it's much easier to do when you're excusing yourself from a conversation

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Speaker 2: of course,

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Speaker 1: which is something I'm seeing more and more of an is an honoring of this courtesy that

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Speaker 1: if you don't have to be included, we don't need to have those emails flying around

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Speaker 2: saying things like feel free to remove me now that I've given my two cents or you know, if you don't need me for any more of this project, feel free to to not include me on the reply. All

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Speaker 1: that kind of exactly. Just put it. But make it explicit. I guess the advice is to put it in the body of the email and acknowledge what's happening as you make

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Speaker 1: conscious choices about including or not including people

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Speaker 1: for good reasons.

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Speaker 2: I always like the version where when you're introducing people that you say and now that I've introduced you, I'm going to step out and you guys can start a new email chain together or something like that and it both, you know, or it's the other one where it's now that, you know, Gillian's introduced us,

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Speaker 2: Gil, I'm going to start a new email thread without you on it, like, you know that way, we're not blowing up your inbox.

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Speaker 2: Um, and I always think that's a really thoughtful one when I see, and I think it's a space where people are really more familiar with the

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Speaker 1: practice. There was one other part of this question that I thought really deserve dimension, which was the question about whether or not there's any protocol difference, whether you're including someone as one of multiple recipients or whether you're including someone as a CC

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Speaker 1: or a carbon copy

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Speaker 1: and

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Speaker 1: there isn't, there isn't a particular rule that says when people are on this line, they get included in replies in this line, you can drop them out or something like that.

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Speaker 1: But I do

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Speaker 2: think of them as all equal, even though they are different lines and I'm curious if we're going to get any feedback about that, but in my world dan if I put you on a CC or I put you on the two line doesn't matter, you're included and should pay attention, you know,

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Speaker 1: functionally, they work very much the same

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Speaker 2: way. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And

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Speaker 1: having said that, I do think there is something to that distinction, even if there isn't a big difference

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Speaker 1: in the same way we talk about the order that you include people on a line

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Speaker 1: really doesn't matter. It has no impact on which email arrives first or who reads it first or second. But as a practice, when I was new at Emily post, I'd always put your father my boss first and I would put people that were

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Speaker 1: lower in the organizational hierarchy following. And then I would include 1/5 generation at least senior members at

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Speaker 2: the end.

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Speaker 1: There was a way to acknowledge hierarchy, but whatever choices you're making and in the same way, I think that maybe clustering people in the top

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Speaker 1: to me indicates or in the to field

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Speaker 1: that they're part of an active conversation. The CC to me indicates more. This is for you to have to have to read,

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Speaker 1: but I'm not necessarily as expecting that you're participating or replying.

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Speaker 1: So I do think there is something to the order in that that top line about recognizing hierarchy in an organization,

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Speaker 2: in our organization. Our hierarchy was three people at the top. And I made sure with our emails that I always switched up which one I spoke to because one was my father, one was your mother and one was our other aunt

00:26:22

Speaker 2: and our other aunt Peggy lived in florida and often didn't feel like the same inclusivity because she wasn't in the office. And so it was,

00:26:34

Speaker 2: I always thought really courteous to either put her name first or just keep switching them around so that there was no default. Um and and because our hierarchy wasn't like terribly stressful hierarchy, I would say, I also really tried to do that among just all the people that we've worked with over the years. So it's like, you know,

00:26:54

Speaker 2: kind of the first person is the one that's like either most likely going to impact or something like that or that I'm really speaking directly to or if it really is the whole group, then change it up as frequently as you can so that it doesn't feel like a

00:27:07

Speaker 2: kind of a standard order that gets established with no real reason for having it been established.

00:27:12

Speaker 1: I'd completely forgotten that little detail, but once you mentioned it, I remember us talking about that many, many years ago.

00:27:18

Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Oh yeah,

00:27:20

Speaker 2: Rebecca, thank you so much for this business etiquette question. We really appreciate it and we hope that our answer helps,

00:27:27

Speaker 1: you know what we mean by sharing. You know, what kinds of things to share?

00:27:33

Speaker 1: Do you know why

00:27:35

Speaker 1: and how we share? Let's find out

00:27:39

Speaker 1: our next question is about a new kind of cash bar dear dan and lizzie, thankful for your insightful podcast. I've been an avid listener for a few years now, but have especially looked forward to new episodes since the onset of the pandemic. Such a breath of fresh air and conversation.

00:27:55

Speaker 1: I have a question about an invitation my boyfriend and I recently received to our friend's engagement party

00:28:01

Speaker 1: underneath the customary date time and place, local beer garden or bar.

00:28:06

Speaker 1: It stated that a $45 open bar cost will be collected at the door.

00:28:12

Speaker 1: This gave me pause.

00:28:14

Speaker 1: It was followed by canopies will be provided and gratuity will be covered.

00:28:19

Speaker 1: Mm

00:28:21

Speaker 1: I understand that everyone has different budgets in which they have to work. However, the most obvious choice to me would be to provide canopies and the, I'm sure included in the contract gratuity

00:28:32

Speaker 1: and just have a cash bar where guests purchase their own drinks.

00:28:36

Speaker 1: I wonder if there are non drinking guests or those that are driving. Are they required to foot the $45 charge?

00:28:43

Speaker 1: Is this a cover charge to enter the party?

00:28:45

Speaker 1: I've been to a good amount of events in my time and while socially rusty from the pandemic, this was new to me, is this a new norm.

00:28:54

Speaker 1: We are excited to celebrate this milestone in our friends lives and will be attending and of course paying the open bar charge. However, this seems like an appropriate question for my go to etiquette experts with thanks be

00:29:07

Speaker 2: B thank you so much for writing in and I have to say, well our world has changed, has not changed so much that etiquette

00:29:14

Speaker 1: would suggest it's

00:29:15

Speaker 2: okay to have a cash bar for guests that you invite to a party.

00:29:19

Speaker 2: And this seems to me even kind of like a

00:29:23

Speaker 2: we're trying not to impose costs on, you see, we're paying for canopies and gratuities, and

00:29:29

Speaker 2: my suggestion would just straight out the gate, b that the better way to do this if you're in a budget constraint situation is to really think about hosting it from a venue that you can afford to host it from, where you can afford to cover all the costs. And it's why a lot of people for

00:29:49

Speaker 2: an engagement party, do a casual party at home or

00:29:52

Speaker 2: Or even just a champagne toast kind of party at home, but to ask your guests to pay a $45 cover charge so that you can be at a beer garden, you know, and enjoy your time with them. It feels

00:30:07

Speaker 2: it just, it strikes the wrong note from an etiquette perspective, and and it still strikes the wrong note from an etiquette perspective, even even at the stage, and are kind of new norm, as you say,

00:30:17

Speaker 1: lizzie, I was curious about some of the

00:30:20

Speaker 1: other questions that this kind of invitation brought up in bees mind. For example, I'm not a big drinker. Is this a cover charge or is this a pay for the bar

00:30:30

Speaker 2: kind of charge? Could I go

00:30:33

Speaker 1: And maybe just get a cell sir, that I pay for myself and be a part of this? And I think that at the bare minimum, having some sort of accommodation for people so that they could participate if they didn't want to pay that $45 fee

00:30:48

Speaker 1: would maybe address some of the concerns that very legitimately come up. It wouldn't get you

00:30:55

Speaker 1: within the bounds of we think of as social expectations. It wouldn't fulfill your role as a host, but

00:31:02

Speaker 1: it would show some consideration for your guests or some effort to make, to provide some options for people that might or might not want to participate the way you're outlining.

00:31:11

Speaker 2: I think so, like I would have been more keen on seeing these hosts invite people to come to this very beer garden and pay for the canopies and say we will have to,

00:31:22

Speaker 2: you know, signature cocktails or we'll have, you know, beer and wine available for folks and then the parenthesis, if you'd like something else, I wouldn't say the bar is open and available because that would suggest that your footing the bill, but you're, you're welcome to get your own drinks or, or do your own thing, but I just can't get behind the idea that

00:31:40

Speaker 2: It sounds like a confusing situation. There were, I was imagining that these hosts and they may not have, but I was imagining that these hosts got a bunch of questions similar, to well if I don't drink, do I have to pay the $45 or

00:31:54

Speaker 2: There's no way I could drink $45 worth of alcohol, even if it's really expensive alcohol, you know, do I really have to pay $45 to come? I like I just think that they probably in an effort to describe what they want and how things would be handled at their party.

00:32:12

Speaker 2: They ended up I think creating a lot more questions, and even for guests who said, Heck, we'll go along with it, we'll pay $90 as a couple to attend your

00:32:22

Speaker 2: engagement party. I just don't think it's working as a good solution. It's not something you're gonna find us putting in the in the 20th edition as a good idea,

00:32:33

Speaker 1: maybe even warning against,

00:32:35

Speaker 2: perhaps maybe even warning against

00:32:38

Speaker 1: B There's one other thing that we really have to say while we're looking at this particular question and that is that

00:32:44

Speaker 1: you are just doing awesome here. I love the spirit that you are intending to wear when you participate, of course, we're excited to celebrate and of course we'll be attending and paying whatever they ask and having a good time doing it.

00:33:01

Speaker 1: And

00:33:02

Speaker 1: I just I so appreciate that I really, really do. And

00:33:06

Speaker 1: I'm glad that you included it, because that is the spirit of good etiquette and it lets us

00:33:11

Speaker 1: look at the unfortunate situation that you're that you're presented with and to think about it, think about it critically, what about it doesn't work. What about it might work.

00:33:21

Speaker 1: But then to also say you know that's not going to impact us in a good spirit that we bring to this event. And

00:33:28

Speaker 1: thank you for bringing this question to the etiquette podcast for letting us play with it and thank you for keeping your good spirit as you plan to attend this party.

00:33:36

Speaker 1: This isn't a very unusual scene.

00:33:38

Speaker 1: You've probably been to parties like this yourself. Lots of

00:33:42

Speaker 1: a bunch of us kids to get together at somebody's house every now and then and there's music and dancing and just general fun.

00:33:49

Speaker 1: The only thing different about this particular party was what happened to spoil the good time. Everyone's happy.

00:33:55

Speaker 1: It all began when the telephone rang

00:33:58

Speaker 2: and Susan went to answer

00:34:03

Speaker 2: our next question is titled you are not my cheerleader.

00:34:08

Speaker 2: Hi love the podcast. It's fun and informative and challenges me to do better. Sometimes

00:34:14

Speaker 2: I was out running earlier today and I had a little interaction with a woman who was out walking on the same trail in the woods.

00:34:21

Speaker 2: We said good morning then she said great job. It all starts here

00:34:27

Speaker 2: now. All I can think is that she looked at me and thought how great is it that a fat lady is out running And she wanted to encourage me.

00:34:37

Speaker 2: Well I'm not so much encouraged as irritated.

00:34:41

Speaker 2: I'm a longtime runner and my body type has always been on the round side sometimes more sometimes less I can't think of any other reason for a comment like the one she said can you or am I over interpreting this?

00:34:57

Speaker 2: I think that people watching is great fun and I do it all the time. I think good thoughts about the people who look like they're challenging themselves out there.

00:35:07

Speaker 2: But I think a comment like this will almost always backfire.

00:35:12

Speaker 2: Everyone wants to be treated like all the other folks. My question is would it have been rude for me to stop and say in a friendly upbeat way, hey, don't do that. You don't know where I've been or where I'm going.

00:35:27

Speaker 2: I'm sure she didn't know how that landed and maybe she'd like to know or do I just let it slide off and in Seattle

00:35:36

Speaker 1: Oh and in Seattle I'm sorry that this happened and it left you feeling so uncomfortable like you wanted to take some kind of action.

00:35:45

Speaker 1: I also thank you for sending in the question. The first thing that you asked was can you think of any other reason for a comment like this and

00:35:54

Speaker 1: I wanted to say, I absolutely can. I can think of a lot of different interpretations or ways that something like that might have been said.

00:36:01

Speaker 2: I'm curious because I can only think of one or two. I'm curious what have you got because

00:36:06

Speaker 1: but I also think that the most likely one is the impression that and in Seattle God the

00:36:13

Speaker 1: I'm really ready to trust and judgment that that comment was about her size and the activity of running and that one is in relation to the other.

00:36:24

Speaker 1: Yeah. And the other interpretation, if I remove that from my mind just says it all starts here like this is this is a run, this is us getting going together, this is the beginning of our run, our day are

00:36:37

Speaker 1: interaction,

00:36:39

Speaker 1: but I think that most likely an knows what this person is talking about.

00:36:44

Speaker 1: Mhm.

00:36:45

Speaker 1: I also don't think that there's a lot that you can really do in an in passing interaction like that. I think that because there is some uncertainty about what was meant and what the intentions are ideas behind that are that it can be really difficult to try to

00:37:02

Speaker 1: confront or address one of those possibilities without

00:37:07

Speaker 1: assuming a lot about someone that you wouldn't necessarily want to assume in that moment

00:37:12

Speaker 1: lizzie post, what do you think about

00:37:13

Speaker 2: this? I was going to say I have a number of thoughts on this being, being someone who has gone running to lose weight and wondered what other people thought of me as I was out on my journey and things like that, but also just as a as a runner who has had moments where I've been so

00:37:30

Speaker 2: encouraged by the activity of running that whenever I see someone else who's out there and for me, I tend to do my running in the morning. So it's like that's you know that's 66 30 A. M. The crew that you see out like starting their day, like you said dan, you know, starting your day together out by getting some exercise in. I have so and especially at times where that running was really important to me, I've wanted to congratulate every single person who is out there running, walking biking, like whatever they're doing. I just want to be like yes, good for you or something like that. And at the same time

00:38:08

Speaker 2: I believe that I was smart and and polite by not doing that to other people because you don't know where they are in their day.

00:38:17

Speaker 2: I think instead saying that things like so great to be out here, wonderful day, like get at it early. All things that would be preferable to what was the direct quote, great job. It all starts here.

00:38:34

Speaker 2: I even think that like like telling people great job is it's

00:38:38

Speaker 2: it's close to being not appropriate because you don't know what their goals are. This might be the worst run of of an in Seattle's life today. I think that saying things that are way more generic, it's okay. I'm always appreciative that most of the runners that I run by now make eye contact and just give a nod every now and again there's a thumbs up

00:38:59

Speaker 2: and I try really hard to do that to every person I pass not just the ones who look like maybe this is a hard run, you know what I mean? It's not our job to be everybody else's cheerleader. Like put put those vibes out from a

00:39:17

Speaker 2: a place of intention and and and vibe as opposed to actual words. Um I agree with and I agree with you. I think this probably was meant as a positive way to encourage someone that this woman thought needed encouragement. And it's,

00:39:35

Speaker 2: it's a, it's a step too far in the world of politeness in public spaces.

00:39:41

Speaker 2: It is so incredibly important to not

00:39:47

Speaker 2: use what we can physically observe of someone as an indication that we know where they are or what their goal is, what they're up to, what they're even doing. You know what I mean? It's really, really important that we don't cross that line

00:40:04

Speaker 2: because it creates situations like this when when we do

00:40:08

Speaker 2: and, and again, as I said, you know, earlier in my comments saying beautiful day saying so glad to be out here. You know, those are are much more broad and less implicating than a comment. Like good job. It all starts here. Like you dan.

00:40:28

Speaker 2: I don't think that it would be appropriate to say, um excuse me, Hey, I know you thought that was a complimentary encouragement, but I should really tell you how it lands. I think we're all within a right to tell people that kind of stuff. But I also think it's not wise or overly polite to do. So what I would say, cousin and I would feel no bad badness. So you can tell me if I should feel bad about saying it

00:40:55

Speaker 2: is as she shouts, great job. It all starts here. I would probably shout back. Not my first run, but you have a nice day like, you know, and not not saying it nasty, like I just kind of did, but instead like not my first run, but have a great day. Like

00:41:10

Speaker 2: there we go, enough of just how you like it. Okay. I know that tone

00:41:14

Speaker 1: boy. It really matters.

00:41:16

Speaker 2: David, you see her the difference there, right? Um but I think that's the kind of thing that,

00:41:24

Speaker 2: you know, would just be a little bit of a reminder. I would think the other woman would have picked up on it, but like, oh, like I don't, you know? But I also think you don't go the other route because her it all starts here.

00:41:37

Speaker 2: Do you mean like we're all starting our day here. Do you mean? Like, like what do you mean? The great job to me indicates that she probably did think you were on the start of some kind of exercise, physical journey, but the other the all starts here. I just don't know. I don't I don't know what she means by that and where exactly she's referencing it and it's

00:41:55

Speaker 2: it's what would stop me from really going after it.

00:41:59

Speaker 2: Um In terms of like a longer conversation where I try to stop her and let her know her point, there's a great scene and and then I promised and I'll be done. But there's a great scene in the tv show shrill on hulu if you've ever seen it

00:42:14

Speaker 2: where this woman is in a cafe, it's like the opening scene of the first like episode

00:42:20

Speaker 2: and she's looking at a like poster that are not a poster, but like you know when someone prints out a little flyer and there's the Take my number,

00:42:31

Speaker 2: Well she's looking at all the flyers that are up there and apparently a woman who's posted the flyer and it's for exercise. I can get you to be the shape you want to be. She she really like says, oh go ahead, take it, you should take it, you there is a thin person inside of you just waiting to get out right. She's saying all these

00:42:50

Speaker 2: really bad things that she thinks are really encouraging this person to take a step towards doing something when really the star of the show is fine as she is, you know, or at least learns to be throughout the show. But it's like not looking to go on some crazy weight loss journey or you know, become a different person than she is physically right now.

00:43:11

Speaker 2: And it just it's such a wonderful illustration of of just how bad assuming that everyone wants has the same goals and ideals is and when it comes to like physicality and and and working out and things like that, The show deals with this kind of stuff a lot. And it's a really good subject. It's a good thing to start to be really aware of

00:43:35

Speaker 2: That just weight loss and body shape is so much more than I think what we've been programmed to think about it over the past 50 years.

00:43:45

Speaker 1: What I love about the sample script that you gave is that it follows all the advice that you would want to give to the other person

00:43:52

Speaker 1: that your sample script is built out of referencing yourself and your own reactions and things that you can be really confident and own not my first run. Have a great day however, that comes out, but that's that's about you and you're you're not making any of those assumptions about

00:44:12

Speaker 1: where that other person is coming from or interrogating them or asking them or trying to interpret them.

00:44:18

Speaker 2: You're really just offering something that you just ask him, Hey, what do you mean by

00:44:21

Speaker 1: that

00:44:24

Speaker 1: again, with the right tone? Probably a better thing to do than to actually assume, you know what they meant

00:44:29

Speaker 2: by it and call them out for

00:44:31

Speaker 1: it.

00:44:32

Speaker 1: Although what do you mean by That's a pretty big call out, We should acknowledge.

00:44:38

Speaker 1: Yeah,

00:44:39

Speaker 1: but I think it's a good illustration though of how sound that advice is that when we're talking about quick exchanges when we're talking about people that we don't have a lot of report built up with. We don't know a lot about really keeping the way you comment about things and what you share reference to yourself and not

00:44:57

Speaker 1: commenting on the other person, what they're doing, How they look

00:45:01

Speaker 1: is really wise and it can be really hard when someone says something hurtful to just let it slide off your back and it's not that it's always your responsibility to just take it. But we hope that our answer helps that this gives a chance to

00:45:16

Speaker 1: process and think about it a little bit and I hope Lizzy's answer gives you some ways that you might respond in the moment.

00:45:23

Speaker 1: Um but that are broader questions also help everyone because I do think by bringing this issue forward, hopefully we can reduce this kind of offense being given in general.

00:45:33

Speaker 1: Almost anyone can find some source of exercise with little or no equipment.

00:45:38

Speaker 1: It's up to you to see that your body gets the activity it needs for better physical and mental health.

00:45:47

Speaker 1: Mhm.

00:45:49

Speaker 1: Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind that's 8028585463. You can also reach us on social media on twitter. We are at Emily Post instead

00:46:07

Speaker 1: on instagram. We are at Emily Post institute

00:46:10

Speaker 1: and on facebook we are awesome etiquette. Just remember use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the show.

00:46:19

Speaker 1: Yeah,

00:46:22

Speaker 2: if you love awesome etiquette, please consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette where you'll find memberships that start at a dollar per month. You'll get an ads free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content

00:46:40

Speaker 2: plus you'll feel great knowing that you helped keep awesome etiquette on the air

00:46:44

Speaker 2: and to those of you who are already sustaining members. Thank you so much for your support.

00:46:49

Speaker 1: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer in the topics we cover today. We have feedback from

00:46:57

Speaker 2: m Good Morning A. E team. I was just listening to episode 3 68 and had some feedback on the question about amazon baby shower gifts.

00:47:07

Speaker 2: It might be a little late for this listener, but one idea would be to create a new shipping address address to baby. Last name or parent

00:47:17

Speaker 2: b last name with the B representing baby or something similar. I'm using baby because we personally chose not to find out the sex of both our kids, but if the name has been chosen or announced, that could be another option. This would definitely help separate shower gifts from your own purchases. M

00:47:36

Speaker 2: I thought this was so smart.

00:47:38

Speaker 1: This is such a good idea,

00:47:40

Speaker 2: it makes it so simple and easy and you can work within the system. You're not even really tweaking the system. M thank you so much for this suggestion

00:47:50

Speaker 1: etiquette details who

00:47:53

Speaker 2: thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please keep them coming. You can send your feedback or update to awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com

00:48:01

Speaker 2: Or leave us a voicemail or text at (802) 858 kind. That's 8 02858546

00:48:09

Speaker 1: three.

00:48:16

Speaker 2: It's time for our postscript segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette and today we're going to discuss holiday

00:48:23

Speaker 1: cards, cue the snow

00:48:28

Speaker 2: for those of us in the north

00:48:30

Speaker 1: must be sometime between Halloween and thanksgiving.

00:48:34

Speaker 2: Yes exactly. Um but holiday cards are one of those topics dan as you know that people really right into us about annually.

00:48:45

Speaker 2: I think it's one of those things where sometimes no matter how many times you've done them you can still have questions or have a moment where you second guess yourself or if you want to change up your holiday card routine,

00:48:55

Speaker 2: you might have questions about that. So we thought we would go through and sort of do a prime around holiday cards this time of year.

00:49:02

Speaker 1: I have so upped my game since the start of the show and I think a big part of that has been our return to these each year and I think one year I even set an intention that I was going to get my spreadsheet well organized with all the names and addresses and set myself up for the future.

00:49:18

Speaker 2: I love how that's your version of it, where my version of it is definitely the new

00:49:23

Speaker 2: and what kind of card are we going to create and craft this year that I'll send out, you know, because like for me it's all about the crafting aspect of it, like breaking out the glitter and the glue and the, you know, paint pens or the pencils, like whatever, like media might want to be working in, it's about trying to find the most kind of

00:49:43

Speaker 2: fun and festive way to apply it and then and then of course you make your list. So like I go the other way, feels so cold, oh, I didn't mean to make it sound that way. Very organized cousin. Very organized. But it does lead me to our very first point which is that when it comes to the type of card that you choose to send, they can be printed and or they could be pre made or they could be homemade. So you can kind of run the gamut between picking up something that's already got a message written in it and

00:50:16

Speaker 2: is ready to go out of a nice little card set package

00:50:20

Speaker 2: that you get at your local station er or you could do something like I know there are tons of printing sites vista print is coming to mind. I don't know if that's the right one to suggest one

00:50:30

Speaker 1: of

00:50:31

Speaker 2: one of many, many, many like

00:50:34

Speaker 2: where you can get something that's a little more customizable for what you want but still simple and effective and printed

00:50:41

Speaker 2: and then there's of course the homemade version where your hand making each card to some degree and and sending those out and it just matters not which one you use. Every single one of those is going to feel

00:50:55

Speaker 2: likely authentic to the exchange that is happening. Which is you wishing someone in your life Well this season

00:51:02

Speaker 1: because this isn't something that you have to do

00:51:05

Speaker 1: when you make the effort. That is the thing that connects with people and the particulars of that card when it arrives

00:51:14

Speaker 1: are important but fall much further down the scale of importance than the fact that you actually made the effort and that you did.

00:51:22

Speaker 2: Absolutely. Absolutely. Because one of the other big questions that we get around these cards are photos or no photos, what's your take on photos verse, no photos.

00:51:32

Speaker 1: I think it's a personal choice. I love him personally. I I love that annual update and whether it's the picture, that's sort of the classic what I think of as traditional when you get your pictures printed, that's then tucked into a card. That's either one of those cards that you talk about picking up in a set or that you've handmade.

00:51:51

Speaker 1: But then there's the version that is much more common in my life today, which are the cards that are created out of pictures where you essentially are getting a postcard that's wishing you season's greetings or Happy New Year, happy holidays and

00:52:04

Speaker 2: using one of those kind of services to create or something.

00:52:08

Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. And maybe there's a family picture on one side or a picture of an individual on one side and then maybe on the back you have an opportunity to do some different kind of pictures, some candidates, the pets, whatever, whatever. Or maybe it's just a message

00:52:21

Speaker 2: because you just brought up a really great point when you said of some of some people are the individual and we do get the question for those who are independent or living on their own.

00:52:32

Speaker 2: Is it weird to send a photo holiday card if I'm the only person in the photo and the answer is absolutely not. In fact, a lot of people

00:52:40

Speaker 2: choose to take a photo or have a photo from, you know, their adventures. If it was like a great hike that you went on from the top of a mountain or a vacation or trip that they were on or even just a photo from being at home doing their own crafting or something, you know hobby that they enjoy or something like that.

00:52:59

Speaker 2: It's perfectly fine to do a photo of you solo,

00:53:02

Speaker 2: if that's the way your life happens to be and it is also perfectly okay to include all the pets. That is, that's another one that we often get a question about. And I think one of the things I always loved was that growing up a lot of our friends and family did this style where I think like a photo shop would actually print

00:53:22

Speaker 2: like something extra on the photo that says like season's greetings or something like that. So your photos like a little smaller than the standard sizes and then they use the extra space to put the well wishes or the greeting on it.

00:53:34

Speaker 2: And my parents always saved all of those and put them in that year's photo album at the end of the year. So you kind of got to see over the years, all these people that we exchanged christmas cards with. Um, for us, there were christmas cards,

00:53:48

Speaker 2: you know, over the years, like growing up and their families expanding. Like we have my Godmother's family throughout all the years and you see how now there's grandchildren and everything and it's really heartwarming. So

00:53:59

Speaker 2: um, don't be shy with the photos, you don't have to use them, but anyone, anyone certainly can.

00:54:06

Speaker 1: Was supposed to bring up another good question, merry christmas, season's greetings, We get questions about that. But what do you say in general, what, what I guess is the other sort of corollary question? What should be avoided?

00:54:18

Speaker 2: I see. Yes, No, you pretty much the goal here is some kind of

00:54:25

Speaker 2: either seasonal wish or well wish. So you might tie it to a specific holiday

00:54:31

Speaker 2: because that's the holiday that you celebrate and you want to wish that good cheer out into the world and that's perfectly okay. You might tie it to just the season and that's where we get a lot of happy holidays. Season's greetings, may this season bring you light and joy, things like that

00:54:48

Speaker 2: and then you might keep it a little more what I would say basic but still super welcoming and lovely, which

00:54:54

Speaker 2: would include phrases like warm wishes to you. Some people choose to focus on the changing over of the new year, so it might be like wishing you happiness and joy in the new year or something like that.

00:55:08

Speaker 2: That can tend to be a little bit more broad and I'm a big fan of the New Year's one. I don't know what you guys end up putting on your cards for the year, but I tend, I tend to go the,

00:55:17

Speaker 2: the wishing you well in the new year kind of a route,

00:55:20

Speaker 2: but those are the things that I would aim to think about saying is just a general, good, good wish, good cheer, good merriment, you know, kind of feel to that general greeting that you might put on it.

00:55:33

Speaker 1: Of course, all of the usual extra supply if you're going to see them soon. Looking forward to seeing you in the new year or anything that personalizes the message, but it doesn't need to be long. This is just a quick touch base.

00:55:46

Speaker 2: Absolutely

00:55:48

Speaker 2: dan. I'm curious how do you and your family tend to sign your holiday cards? Is it like the sending family or do you do everyone's name? Do you include roger like you know, what's, what's the game plan at the sending house? Well,

00:56:01

Speaker 1: I guess the first question that comes up around signing is do you actually physically sign it yourself and

00:56:06

Speaker 1: confessions and offering etiquette dispensations. We don't

00:56:10

Speaker 1: use a service that does have our cards printed

00:56:15

Speaker 1: and that, that magical spreadsheet that I was mentioning at the start has addresses in it and names and those all go into the system and then they just go out and

00:56:24

Speaker 2: that's nice to know that for ease of everything. That is nice. And we should officially say it's perfectly polite. It's okay to do it this way.

00:56:32

Speaker 1: And for people that feel uncomfortable about that who really want to physically touch the cards themselves who want to add a personal note or a personal signature. It's okay to use one of those services and have them send the cards to you to send on. But there isn't anything impolite about taking advantage of those services if they, if they are available and that's what you're doing and I just wanted to mention that.

00:56:55

Speaker 1: Um, in terms of whether you sign it individually or from the family, I think you think about who's represented in the card and there are definitely more personal holiday cards that I send that are from me where I'm sending it just to a

00:57:08

Speaker 2: friend and

00:57:09

Speaker 1: it's, it's not part of that big bulk send, but it's just

00:57:13

Speaker 1: this person was always really good when we were growing up about sending my parents a card. So I make sure to respond in kind now that I'm an adult

00:57:21

Speaker 1: that I would sign coming from me because it's not from the whole family, but the card that really is the picture of all of us and it's going to the people that are connected to all of us, that's from the settings or from all of us.

00:57:35

Speaker 2: Yeah. And do you ever do one words from dan pooja, anisha aria and roger with a little paw print, you know like after roger so that they know like this isn't like new kid or anything.

00:57:48

Speaker 2: Not yet, but

00:57:49

Speaker 1: that would be available.

00:57:50

Speaker 2: I always like it when they include all the names. But when you are thinking about doing something like that where you're doing individual names versus the family or you know, the settings, that sort of thing.

00:58:03

Speaker 2: It is perfectly fine to sign those names in any order that you wish. Typically if, if sort of kids are involved, if we've got two generations, you do the parents first and then the kids and then the pets. But it matters not which order the kids go in which order the parents are listed in or even what order the pets are listening. You really can sign those sort of in any way, in any way that you like

00:58:28

Speaker 1: lizzie post, who's getting these cards? Who should we be thinking about?

00:58:32

Speaker 1: Mhm.

00:58:32

Speaker 2: Anybody you want to, The nice thing about holiday greeting cards like this is that they are both.

00:58:39

Speaker 2: Um so well wishing and so casual that it's okay to send them far and wide. Uh You could send them to your colleagues at work, you could send them to uh more distant relatives that you don't do gift exchanges with or you see during the holiday seasons

00:58:55

Speaker 2: um you can send them to friends, old and new, you might have friends that you barely ever talked to but you do a holiday card to them each year and they absolutely love it. I am thinking of people in my own life. You know my my card lists because they're all handmade is pretty small. Like I keep it a small

00:59:13

Speaker 2: list and I am always so grateful that a lot of other people have kept me on their list despite the fact that I might not send to them every year.

00:59:22

Speaker 2: It's totally 100% up to you how you choose to make up your list each year and who ends up on it and there might be some years where you do the big send out kind of like what Dan described where you get them printed and they just go straight from the printer's out and off they go and you might have sent those far and wide done like 500 of them or something

00:59:42

Speaker 2: And the next year you might do all handmade cards and only do them to 10 people and it's really okay no matter what you do you can switch that list up as you like and you can expand it, shrink it whatever.

00:59:55

Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you mentioned work, colleagues and friends old and new because I was thinking a little bit

01:00:00

Speaker 1: looking at this bullet in our show script

01:00:03

Speaker 1: about what an opportunity this time of year. This tradition is to make connections and we often talk about the value of traditions or leaning into traditions are looking for the reasons why they've lasted or have been handed down and try to honor those reasons by figuring out how to modify or adapt them so that they continue to function really well.

01:00:25

Speaker 1: And what you just described of staying connected to people over distance and this really being an opportunity to have just an annual check in that reminds you of them

01:00:35

Speaker 1: is one example I had in my mind the other is the new friend who isn't somebody you've ever exchanged maybe a physical card with and the opportunity to bring them into your circle and share a little something is, is really rich

01:00:50

Speaker 1: as is that opportunity at work. And

01:00:53

Speaker 1: earlier in this post script, I mentioned that there had been a time doing the show where I said I want to get better at doing this and I wanted to commit to putting together my spreadsheets, always better organized and better able to execute it.

01:01:05

Speaker 1: I've got this little thought in my mind that I'm wanting to do that for us at Emily post my, my this deer version of that commitment is that I'd love to bring some of these skills from,

01:01:15

Speaker 1: from my social life into my work life in a bigger way. And

01:01:19

Speaker 2: I love the idea we used to do a lot more of it. But as the crew has shrunk and changed over the years, the priorities have changed and I like the idea of making that a priority again.

01:01:29

Speaker 1: So who descended to anyone you can,

01:01:32

Speaker 2: anyone, you can, hey dan, there's actually something I'm thinking of on this topic that's not on our list. So can I throw you a curve ball?

01:01:41

Speaker 1: Oh, please do.

01:01:42

Speaker 2: Okay. I gotta ask this in an interview last year and it set off an interesting discussion and that was,

01:01:48

Speaker 2: what do you think about the sort of self deprecating or jokey tones that some of these cards have taken over the years, like for instance, here's your nice family photo and then the caption under it reads, We've never looked like this for more than the half second for the click, you know, of of the camera.

01:02:08

Speaker 2: It's, it's the kind of stuff that says like we're never really this put together,

01:02:13

Speaker 2: but we did it just for you or something, something like that. That kind of like

01:02:18

Speaker 2: pokes fun at the idea of sending the card or that your family, you know what your family might look like in the card, things like that. What's your take?

01:02:27

Speaker 1: This is not a curve ball is my first take.

01:02:29

Speaker 2: Okay, good. I'm kind of glad to hear you say.

01:02:31

Speaker 1: I was thinking about um are and I've been thinking about you ever since you proposed this post script a couple weeks ago

01:02:37

Speaker 1: because I very clearly remember giving the advice to be careful about humor when we did a version of this post script in previous years. And I think it's a good piece of advice to keep in mind, humor can be tricky. It's really hard to write funny.

01:02:52

Speaker 1: I

01:02:52

Speaker 2: think people need to be, we have learned that ourselves,

01:02:56

Speaker 1: there is so much that comes across in your tone of voice that twinkle in your eye. Just good humor in

01:03:03

Speaker 1: on your face that can help a joke land in the way that you intend

01:03:08

Speaker 1: and it's just riskier when you don't have all that information. I think it's good advice, particularly if your humor runs cynical or sarcastic

01:03:18

Speaker 1: that the the humor that has that hint of negativity or plays with the idea of joking around negativity is something to be particularly careful about if you're talking about writing it down.

01:03:31

Speaker 1: Having said all that

01:03:32

Speaker 1: the year that we gave that advice which was last year when the holiday cards arrived. Absolutely our favorite one and the one that went to the top of the fridge and stayed there for the longest was hysterical

01:03:42

Speaker 2: and

01:03:43

Speaker 1: it was a family that had taken a picture of themselves in all sorts. And the copy read,

01:03:50

Speaker 1: I'm fine, we're fine, everything's

01:03:52

Speaker 2: fine.

01:03:56

Speaker 2: And for a pandemic year

01:03:59

Speaker 1: in a pandemic year and with the really like good spirit of the picture itself, it was hysterical and

01:04:07

Speaker 1: I think that it's wise to be careful with it. But I also don't think that it's verboten, I don't think that it's not allowed. And um when done well it can it can really work.

01:04:17

Speaker 2: We I had a friend who she and her two kids, the photo of them this year was just of their socks. So the three sets of feet lined up in just socks and it said well this year socked but we are wishing you the happiest of holiday seasons and we can't wait to see you soon. You know, just referencing again the pandemic being difficult, but

01:04:39

Speaker 2: the play on words was cute and even though it was referencing something that's been frustrating and hard and incredibly tragic across the entire globe. It did give give that sense of smile and understanding and camaraderie and the joke landed well in my household at least

01:04:56

Speaker 2: because one of the other things that we talk about making sure lands well

01:05:00

Speaker 2: is that some people include sort of like a holiday family annual newsletter in their, in their card and it's often like a printed out insert that goes in along with it. And what would you say are some of the tips to make that a really great read.

01:05:18

Speaker 1: It's not easy. It's hard to keep it positive without feeling boastful or coming across as boastful. But I do think that the core advice to keep it positive and share things that you're proud to share, Happy to share is a good place to start.

01:05:33

Speaker 1: I think that it's also okay to recognize hardship or difficulties. Oftentimes these newsletters about catching people up on what's been going on over the last year.

01:05:43

Speaker 1: But if you are going to include that kind of information, I think keeping it very clear, very simple and not letting that be the sole focus or the only thing that's communicated in the letter, but that it's given some context with some other information so that it doesn't become the sole feeling that's communicated

01:06:00

Speaker 1: and I can't give advice about writing anything without thinking about our grandfather Bill Post poppy who used to say, I'm sorry this letter got so long. If I had more time it would have been shorter. And the idea is that be your own editor, Take a look at something, say what you want to say, but say it clearly

01:06:19

Speaker 1: and I think this is really sound advice to keep in mind no matter what you're writing.

01:06:23

Speaker 2: Absolutely. As you all prepare to start the holiday season, we hope that this gets you excited and feeling good about sending cards or about skipping this year. If this is your year to skip doing them or not start doing them, we understand that too

01:06:38

Speaker 2: and that we can all start to enjoy a little bit of holiday cheer,

01:06:42

Speaker 1: you know, dasher and dancer and Prancer and Vixen,

01:06:48

Speaker 1: Comet and Cupid and Donner and

01:06:50

Speaker 2: blitzen.

01:06:51

Speaker 1: But do you recall the most famous reindeer of all Rudolph? The red nosed reindeer had a very shiny nose and if you ever saw it

01:07:09

Speaker 1: you would even say it glows all of the other reindeer used to laugh and call him names. They never let poor Rudolph join in any reindeer.

01:07:24

Speaker 1: Yeah,

01:07:26

Speaker 1: we like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world and that can come in so many forms today we begin with a salute from Emily,

01:07:38

Speaker 1: dear lizzie and dan. An hour before I was scheduled to pick up groceries this morning. I got word that my grandfather had passed away

01:07:46

Speaker 1: upon returning home, I discovered not one but two bags of Reese's pieces tucked into my order.

01:07:53

Speaker 1: This is not the first time that I've gotten a little something extra. Some flowers or some fruit that they had to be taking off the floor later that day anyway and it never fails to put a smile on my face,

01:08:04

Speaker 1: but today's hit me something extra

01:08:07

Speaker 1: and I need other people to know how much it means to me.

01:08:10

Speaker 1: So a big dose of gratitude to the staff of the Kroger on Dorothy Lane and Woodman in Dayton Ohio, not just for today's needed comfort candy, but for their ongoing service throughout this pandemic. And the little quiet ways that they have bettered my day and I'm sure countless others

01:08:27

Speaker 1: Emily

01:08:28

Speaker 2: Emily, thank you so much for your salute and we are so sorry for your loss, but it's so encouraging to hear

01:08:36

Speaker 2: that the world was watching out for you in these little ways and you see it not just in a moment of true need, but in the everyday work that this particular grocery store tends to do

01:08:46

Speaker 1: Emily, thank you so much for the salute

01:08:48

Speaker 2: and dan, I want to take one second to offer a salute of my own and

01:08:53

Speaker 2: gosh, darn it, I'm getting choked up just thinking about it. But as you know, sadly, my cat denim passed away this week and I've had him

01:09:02

Speaker 2: For 18 years and I have to say that the vet who came to assist me with this process was I cannot speak enough to how incredible she is at this particular time in a pet parent or a pet owners life.

01:09:18

Speaker 2: She helped me when Benny had passed away, she didn't put him down but she did

01:09:23

Speaker 2: come and assist me with dealing with ashes and and things like that and I was once again just bowled over with her tenderness, her patience and how incredibly skilled she is at hand, holding someone through a really difficult decision

01:09:42

Speaker 2: and I just want to give a shout out to dr Carey who's here in Vermont because she truly has been I think an angel for me and a lot of other people. So thank you very very much dr Carey and thank you for letting me dual tearful salute.

01:09:58

Speaker 1: Well I will add my voice to that salute. Thank you dr Carrie for taking such good care of lizzie and Emma,

01:10:05

Speaker 1: thank

01:10:07

Speaker 2: you for listening

01:10:09

Speaker 1: today and thank you to everyone who sent us something and everyone who supports us on patreon,

01:10:14

Speaker 2: please connect with us and share the show with friends, family and co workers and on social

01:10:20

Speaker 1: media if you wish to

01:10:22

Speaker 1: you can send us your next question feedback or salute by email to awesome etiquette Emily post dot com. You can leave us a message or text at 802858 kind that's 8028585463 on twitter. We are at Emily Post on instagram we are at Emily Post Institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette and the Emily Post Institute.

01:10:45

Speaker 2: Please consider becoming a sustaining member of this podcast by visiting patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette.

01:10:53

Speaker 2: You can also subscribe to the ads version of our show on Spotify or your favorite podcast app and please consider leaving us a review. It helps our show ranking, which helps

01:11:04

Speaker 1: more people find awesome etiquette. Our show was edited by Kris Albertine and assistant produced by Brigitte dot thanks chris.