Episode 383 - Wedding Wording Wondering

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Speaker 1: maybe

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Speaker 2: it's just that you don't know how to use social courtesy, that's old

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Speaker 1: fashioned

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Speaker 1: watch

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Speaker 2: act as host and hostess, They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person, real friendliness.

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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to awesome etiquette

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Speaker 2: where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. On

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Speaker 1: today's show, we take your questions on house warming's when you downsize belated wedding reception, wording how to handle a business lunch during covid

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Speaker 1: and wedding invitation, wording for hosts

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Speaker 2: for awesome etiquette sustaining members. Your question of the week is about using doctor socially

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Speaker 1: plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a post script where we connect to past generations of posts and start celebrating our 100 year anniversary.

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Speaker 2: All that's coming up,

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Speaker 2: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute. I'm dan post Senning

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Speaker 1: and I'm lizzie post

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Speaker 2: and it's good to be here with you this morning.

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Speaker 1: It's good to be here with you too. I appreciate the flexibility on the schedule. I know that like we always kind of start the new year

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Speaker 1: rip roaring ready to get back into work, believe it or not, we have like really good ideas for this week. And then schedules were like, oh wait, but I've got a car drop off and you've got to this and I've got to then is I really appreciate the kind of flexibility and the intention setting at the start of the week of like we're gonna do things regimented. It

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Speaker 2: was good. It was good and if you want something done, ask a busy person.

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Speaker 1: Oh, and it does feel busy. I'll say these first couple of days of the, of the new year, the work week in the new year have felt like, like really getting organized, getting things together, you know, filling out our social media for the month and as you know,

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Speaker 1: for the year, and then as you know, because getting ready to accommodate chris being away for six weeks,

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Speaker 1: um and you being out on some paternity leave and so that means, oh man, it's prep and script. I think we have something like, um

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Speaker 1: I, I don't even know how many scripts, like, let me look at the list, there's something like a good 10 scripts, I think that we have to get through between now and and the end of the month. So consider this our one of our call outs and you'll hear many of them, we, we need your submissions audience. We're going to need tons of etiquette salutes

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Speaker 1: and your feedback and of course your awesome etiquette questions to keep us going and ensure that you have a brand new show every single monday in your inbox. I'm kind of excited for it dan. It's a lot of recording, but it's, I think it's gonna

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Speaker 2: be really fun.

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Speaker 2: So help me out with the math here. If we record two shows a week for six weeks, then we'll have the necessary six weeks of shows

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Speaker 1: almost. It's a little shorter than that. But it is, Yeah. Because it's 10, it's 10 episodes that we have to pre record altogether. And so technically it should be able to happen in five weeks time. So, so 10 and five is what we're shooting for 2 to 2 a week for five weeks.

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Speaker 2: Well, um, are awesome etiquette audience has been awesome in the past with this sort of challenge. We got chris to Scotland and we never had to interrupt his last vacation. Yes. Yes. In the spirit of our perfect track record being maintained,

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Speaker 2: I will add my voice to your call. We would, so, so, so appreciate any extra questions, thoughts, comments, feedback and particularly salutes, which really make my day from all of you. It will be so helpful and we know that you'll be there for us

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Speaker 1: because you know, I love a good challenge and I love anything that lets me sit down and organize things even though maybe my house isn't so organized, work wise, I love getting organized And so it's, it feels good to be back at it at the start of this year.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I feel the same way I can't even tell you and I don't think it's so confessional. Miss. I pretend to be unorganized. But underneath it all, I like to have everything exactly the way I like it.

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Speaker 1: I'll let you and my mother debate whether that's me pretending or my natural

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Speaker 2: status.

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Speaker 2: No, I think your mother knows too, but

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you, I also

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Speaker 2: want to latch on to something else that you just said, because it's very similar to a thought that I've been having, which is that we are very busy. There is a lot to do right now. And it feels good to me too. And

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Speaker 2: part of me thinks that I've been craving some

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Speaker 2: what I think of as normalcy in my life and

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Speaker 2: something about working and being busy and having lots to do feels normal. And in some ways it's really reassuring.

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Speaker 1: I am totally there with you. One of my one of my resolution goals, I think I think I stated it on last week's show was that I I do have some bodywork that I want to do for myself and some

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Speaker 1: sort of health goals that I want to be reaching for. And

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Speaker 1: I was noticing the difference in how I was applying myself to those goals this week versus the last week and a half when we were on vacation and boy, what a difference. I mean, getting up and and you know, you and I committing to our first morning call and making sure that I've

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Speaker 1: gotten some kind of, you know, either yoga workout in before that or I know what I'm going to be eating for dinner. So it doesn't become a last minute challenge,

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Speaker 1: putting our work framework back into place. I felt like really kind of helped me also organize my personal life and like you, I'm loving it. I'm like, I'm loving how it feels

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Speaker 1: to kind of have some, some boundaries and some guides and things like that. And of course, you know, living living single, I'm a much more kind of free operator on the home front, there's a lot more self motivation,

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Speaker 1: but the work is so inspiring to creating that in my life at home as well. So I've been really appreciating it.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's probably an etiquette theme that we could tease out of this about how a little bit of structure can be, really liberating, really freeing in a lot of circumstances,

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Speaker 1: boundaries are good. You know, I think you're absolutely right. I think you're absolutely right.

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Speaker 2: Well speaking of boundaries, we have to wrap up this intro because we have some questions to get to.

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Speaker 1: We absolutely do. Let's do

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Speaker 2: it. Let's do

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Speaker 1: it,

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Speaker 2: awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions, you can email them to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463. You can also reach us on social media on twitter. We are at Emily Post on instagram, we are at Emily Post Institute

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Speaker 2: and on facebook, we are awesome etiquette.

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Speaker 2: Just remember use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your

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Speaker 1: post so that we know you

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Speaker 2: want your question on the show.

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Speaker 1: Our first question is titled downsizing details. Hello, we are downsizing from a house to a trailer. We would like to have small housewarming gatherings just to be safe.

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Speaker 1: Is it okay to say on the invitation to guests that they don't have to bring anything food would not be necessary and as we are moving to a much smaller place, any home decor gifts would be a challenge to fit in our new home.

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Speaker 1: Any advice would be really appreciated signed Loving one floor living,

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Speaker 2: Congratulations. Once living on your new place,

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Speaker 1: I love this. I I know you enjoyed your time in in a small space and it can, it can be really liberating.

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Speaker 2: Oh that cabin was was great. I think it's one of the reasons I fell in love with me.

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Speaker 1: I was even thinking of way before that and the, I mean we jokingly call it the tin can but you were in a in a very small airstream trailer for a number of years in California. Right?

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Speaker 2: Calling it an airstream is a very glorious representation of the trailer that I lived in for many years. Yeah, no, you're taking me way back because

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Speaker 1: I

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Speaker 1: um but it can be liberating. But there is this then question of what do you do when people give you things that you don't have the space to store and that includes even perishables that might go away or you know consumables that you're like, the intention is to make them be gone eventually.

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Speaker 1: But you don't you just don't have the cabinet space to be storing or the refrigerator space to be storing these kinds of things.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's start with etiquette essentials. Ok. And for me, the most important thing is before any of the anticipatory communication, I just want to remind myself that

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Speaker 2: if someone does show up with a gift, I'm going to receive it well that I'm not gonna reject anyone in the moment, in person in particular,

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Speaker 2: that you can always find room to thank them for the thought for the effort if not for the particular gift itself. Even if it's

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Speaker 2: it's true that you're not going to hold on to it, You're not going to keep it. I think receiving the gift and receiving it well in the moment is important. Even if it was a gift that was over the top that I was going to want to be

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Speaker 2: talking to the person about not accepting it later in the moment, you want to thank them. You want to thank him for doing the thing.

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Speaker 1: I think it's a really, really good point.

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Speaker 2: Once you've got that etiquette essential in your pocket. I think then you can start to play a little bit with that tricky gray area of,

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Speaker 2: first of all giving direction about gift giving. Second of all, anticipating people bringing gifts to a party that's not traditionally a big gift party, although

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Speaker 2: people do sometimes show up with gifts. So there's

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Speaker 2: some question about

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Speaker 2: how much of that anticipatory communication you want to engage with and how far you want to go. And I had one idea about that.

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Speaker 1: I got a couple to a

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Speaker 2: little short of mentioning gifts because you know me I tend to come down on the more conservative cautious approach often.

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Speaker 2: And I was thinking in

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Speaker 2: the inviting or the setting up of the gathering. Talk a little bit about the nature of your new place and what you're excited about

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Speaker 2: for the move. And I think that will start to get people

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Speaker 2: in the frame of mind of oh they're downsizing and they're reducing the amount of stuff that they have already. And I think that that just that information would be enough for me as someone coming to not bring a big cheese board that takes up a lot of space in the kitchen as a housewarming gift

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Speaker 1: dan. What you just said sent an image through my mind of like a really cute invitation whether it's paper or digitally sent that like has a really cute like caricature of a trailer.

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Speaker 1: And and mentioned something in the in the invitation itself about like that you know we are we are loving downsizing or we're so excited to downsize something like that

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Speaker 1: so that it kind of highlights the idea like housewarming for a smaller place you know but it really inspired in my mind of using the invitation as a way to subtly get that across.

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Speaker 1: But then I also started thinking about the R. S. V. P. And if you do put an R. S. V. P. With a phone number and request a phone call for your R. S. V. P.

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Speaker 1: It might prompt you more to have that opportunity to have the conversation. Oh we're so glad you're going to make it, we are hosting it outside because you know we'll we'll be able to give tours of the trailer. It is a very small space and so

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Speaker 1: you know we're gonna want to keep things outside and we're keeping it you know small because the fridge won't be able to handle the leftovers or we're going to ask guests to take leftovers home. Things like that

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Speaker 1: I think can be ways where you start to either um softly hint at or much more directly communicate to people. The idea that that this is a small space that we are living in. That that even with a party like this we're trying to strategically think about how to handle the food and the leftovers and things like that.

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Speaker 2: And

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Speaker 1: that could I think help get some people there. What do you think about for a party where

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Speaker 1: gifts aren't necessarily expected the way they are for something like a shower

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Speaker 1: about putting something like a no gifts please on the invitation itself. And I'm thinking not a verbal invitation where you're calling the person and discussing both the party and then what would be good if they're planning on bringing anything,

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Speaker 1: but but just, you know, you've only got the words on the screen or the words on the page or the invitation to communicate it.

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Speaker 1: Do you think the no gifts please would be warranted here, or does it sound presumptuous?

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Speaker 2: No gifts please feels a little short

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Speaker 1: to me,

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Speaker 2: and I maybe it's just because I'm so used to giving the advice that there are only certain invitations that you put no gifts please on and this is like a birthday invitation or Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: even even if it would function well that way, just because it's not in that easy category in my mind, I don't go there as immediately,

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Speaker 1: you know, because I couldn't really both hear your point and in sort of the more

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Speaker 1: casual framework that's something like a housewarming party tends to be within.

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Speaker 1: I could see it being a really concise and and easy application of getting this message across.

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Speaker 1: I could also see you padding it out a little bit like I've seen people use phrases like your presence will be the perfect present, you know, to warm our house or something like that. Again, kind of seems like you might be expecting people to bring gifts, but I want to put out there that even though housewarming aren't something where guests have to or obliged to bring a gift

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Speaker 1: that a lot of people do. So it's it's not terribly gosh to think that people might be bringing gifts and you want to give them some direction on that, but it might be softening it to really emphasizing that their presence is what will warm the house or even no need to bring anything will have everything all set. Something like that might kind of help people understand the wishes of the hosts. In this case,

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Speaker 2: I really like the padded out language

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Speaker 1: and

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Speaker 2: to me that starts to work,

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Speaker 2: it's doing I think for me what you're intending it to do, which is soften the message a little bit and maybe

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Speaker 2: because I've got that no gifts please as such a concrete phrase in my mind that I have associations with it. Whereas when I'm really thinking about what you're saying to me, your presence will be the perfect gift to warm our house. That

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Speaker 2: it just feels a little bit softer. So I am,

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Speaker 2: I'm following you down that road. I'm hoping you'll keep going to the even more padded out sample script. I just saw in our show script because I think it's my favorite.

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Speaker 1: So this is one where I would probably like write this on the back of the invitation or if there was more room and I would probably handwrite it in so that it feels more like a personal note. But the sample script and is referring to was my very long winded version

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Speaker 1: which was for guests who are accustomed to bringing gifts or food to a housewarming. We asked that you kindly warm our space with your presence instead and I think that really does spell out the whole thing like it's not it's not everywhere custom, but for those of you who might feel so inclined, we would prefer this

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Speaker 1: like it kind of bounces in that

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Speaker 2: direction

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Speaker 2: and if they can't help themselves and they show up with a

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Speaker 2: X, Y or Z. Thank you so much for the X, Y or Z. It's so thoughtful.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely 100% loving one floor living. We are so happy for you in your move and and loving the downsizing. We certainly hope that your new space is warmed with family, friends and new neighbors and that you really enjoy it.

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Speaker 1: The ultimate result

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Speaker 1: is that beautiful homes have been provided at a modest cost to american families.

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Speaker 2: Our next question is about a belated reception invitation.

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Speaker 2: Dear awesome etiquette team. My husband and I had to postpone our big wedding plans due to the pandemic but we were still married on our original date with just our parents and siblings in attendance.

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Speaker 2: We are now getting ready to order invitations to our postponed party for friends and extended family.

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Speaker 2: How do you suggest we were the invitations?

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Speaker 2: Our unsent original invitation said

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Speaker 2: mr and mrs Bride's parents cordially invite you to the wedding of their daughter brides first name and middle names. Two grooms first, middle and last names then listed the time and place, etcetera. I have since taken my husband's last name and changed my maiden name to my middle name.

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Speaker 2: It also seems a little incorrect to call this second bigger party a wedding when we will be married for a year by the time the event takes place.

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Speaker 2: Thank you in advance for your help with wording are postponed wedding invitations, sincerely postponed fried

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Speaker 1: postponed bride can congratulations on the wedding that you were able to hold during a very difficult time and on on your nuptials. That's very exciting. And what I'm hearing is that it really does sound like a belated second reception or what some people just simply call a second reception to a wedding

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Speaker 1: as opposed to being a full recreation of the ceremony or as opposed to being the actual ceremony where you know legally we are tying the knot.

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Speaker 1: And so I think that you probably want to lean into some of our sample language for a belated reception and I did go straight straight to our wedding etiquette book, sixth edition, which is just such a fabulous book. I've I've heard from a number of couples out there how much they've appreciated it and

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Speaker 1: earlier this fall, I actually had to dive into it for a little bit and

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Speaker 1: the opener to that book is just so heartwarming and when you're feeling overwhelmed about the idea of throwing such a monumental event, that opener really kind of focuses it all back down. I was really, really, really pleased with how that books turned out and how it's carried through over the years.

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Speaker 1: But the language for a belated reception would sound like this.

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Speaker 1: Mr and mrs Bride's parents request the pleasure of your company at a reception in honor of Mr and mrs and then you can do you and your partners names together and so and and obviously however you choose to to state your name is is fine,

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Speaker 1: but the idea would be that you're requesting the pleasure of the guests company at a reception that's honoring

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Speaker 1: and now we have the married couple because that's, that's really what's going on. There's a less formal way to do it where you might use first names instead. So Bill and Pat, Bride's parents invite you to celebrate the marriage of john and Eliza, you know, bride and groom um and you you wouldn't write bride and groom, just john and Eliza are the bride and groom,

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Speaker 1: but you you put their joined last name or however their names appear now

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Speaker 1: and those would be the two different ways that you could do that and and have it more clearly communicate what people are being invited to. I have seen some people also put their company at a belated reception in honor of and that's another way to do it. But it sounds like, you know, the party you want to throw, You just want to make sure you're getting the right wording on the invitation to throwing it and inviting people to it.

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Speaker 2: That's absolutely what I'm hearing here. And this question took me back to the middle of 2020 post when you and I started to answer these kinds of questions on a pretty regular basis

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Speaker 2: and we've been doing it for a few weeks, maybe even a few months and we really started the key on having clarity about the different components to a wedding day. What are we talking about when we talk about someone getting married and it's the ceremony

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Speaker 2: and the difference between the way you handle rescheduling receptions, ceremonies, whether they happen independently of each other or together, but really being clear about the party and the celebration versus the actual event of the marrying of a couple. I think it is

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Speaker 2: oftentimes a good place to start when you're trying to suss it out and figure out what exactly it is that you're inviting someone to. And I think it's a really natural thing in anyone's mind to think of your wedding day and all of it as the wedding and particularly everybody celebrates and everybody really gets to, gets to rejoice about what has happened and

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Speaker 2: I think for many people that

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Speaker 2: might feel like the most significant part of it, it's the moment where you commit to each other might for some be the thing, maybe the other thing is, but I I can definitely understand the feeling of that celebrating with family and friends feeling essential and like a really important component.

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Speaker 2: It is, we just have a different name for it.

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Speaker 1: It is. And the other thing to consider too is that there are lots of different ways to handle this. We've, we've seen these types of belated receptions be incredibly casual. Um, you know, almost like a little afternoon tea or a backyard barbecue or a punch and cookies type party,

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Speaker 1: you know, really simple and just a chance to get the folks who all live in this part of the country who really couldn't make it for the wedding a chance to celebrate with the happy couple. And we've also seen people put on something that's basically like their, their wedding all over again where you know the dresses and the taxis are worn and

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Speaker 1: vows are exchanged and everything. And so there's, there are different ways to handle it and I think it does help with the language in the invitation to make it clear what your guest is going to experience

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Speaker 1: the two pieces of sample language that we gave for this particular reception where there isn't going to be the ceremony, but there is going to be the party I think really fit it. But I would make sure if I was doing either

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Speaker 1: something bigger that, that I might want to make sure that I'm including that and you would because you'd say, you know, recreation of ceremony

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Speaker 1: starting at, you know, X, Y. Z. Time or something like that. But I think it is a really good thing. It's, it's something I'm really pleased to hear couples doing because I think it's very easy to have that smaller sort of, we've often called it the covid wedding or the pandemic wedding

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Speaker 1: and have the intention to do a big party afterwards. But with, you know, all all different things from safety concerns to just burn out people end up not throwing that party. And I get really excited when I hear about couples choosing to throw that second party when no one or very few people were able to come to the first.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't agree more.

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Speaker 2: I'm really hoping that are postponed. Bride doesn't feel so postponed and is looking forward to the coming party. We hope that our answer has held

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Speaker 1: and that everything goes

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Speaker 2: smoothly with the rest of the planning.

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Speaker 1: This question is titled Covid lunch contact. Good afternoon. I will be graduating in december and have been seriously searching for job prospects since january despite all the news about the abundance of jobs available entry level positions in my field, bridge engineering are actually hard to come by, particularly in my region of the country.

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Speaker 1: I was just contacted by the VP of the bridge group of a local company.

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Speaker 1: He heard about me through a colleague and he would like to meet for lunch to get to know me, here's my dilemma with the rate of covid 19 infections continually increasing. I really don't feel comfortable being in public without a mask though I am fully vaccinated,

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Speaker 1: I don't have health insurance or paid time off so I don't want to take any chances of contracting the virus.

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Speaker 1: Is it rude to attend this lunch but declined to eat?

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Speaker 1: I don't want to come across as ungrateful or rude. I also don't want to pass up an opportunity to meet with someone who could be the only possible job lead I have at this point.

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Speaker 1: Should I just take my chances and remove my mask sincerely and G. M.

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Speaker 2: Angie thank you so much for the question and first of all, congratulations on being invited out and having a good lead on a job that might be tough to get.

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Speaker 2: It also sounds like you're doing really good work when

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Speaker 2: people hear about you through a colleague and that word is good enough. That means that your professional reputation is in good shape. So bravo and brava.

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Speaker 2: Now you've got a kind of tricky situation and whenever I'm faced with a tricky situation, I want to start by asking myself

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Speaker 2: what is certain here, what are the boundaries and the parameters that I have that I know I have to operate within. And

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Speaker 2: oftentimes that doesn't make resolving the tricky situation any easier. But for me it helps me face it and really come to terms with what my options are

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Speaker 2: and lizzie post and I say on this show all the time, That safety supersedes etiquette that ultimately our social expectations are in service of relationships, but

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Speaker 2: they also have to function to keep us safe and feeling safe and like we're okay to be out and about doing what we do.

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Speaker 2: So having said that if you are not comfortable and you have a set of boundaries about where you go, what you participate in, where you wear a mask,

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Speaker 2: then the trick becomes just how you communicate that. And I think that you communicate that clearly and you do it in a way that's unambiguous, where you take responsibility for the choices that you've made when I start to think about how I'm gonna

00:26:14

Speaker 2: tweak that answer or um

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Speaker 2: look for a kind or benevolent truth as opposed to a harsh or brutal truth when I express it.

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking about things like really trying to keep the focus on how much you appreciate them, reaching out, how much you appreciate the opportunity, how much you look forward to connecting with this person, how eager you are to find

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Speaker 2: a way that you can do it. That works for both of you.

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Speaker 2: And I think that keeping the emphasis on that, on your, your appreciation, your enthusiasm, your forward thinking qualities

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Speaker 2: is going to make it easier to also say things like I

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Speaker 2: am comfortable doing this or that,

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Speaker 2: but I'm not so comfortable doing this because you're, you're, you're already in a position where you've communicated clearly

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Speaker 2: enough positive things that the focus isn't just on the minor, I'm going to call it inconvenience that accommodating people's preferences around masks sometimes causes

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Speaker 1: dan. I know that so many of us over the past two years have gotten skilled at or at least familiar with

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Speaker 1: these types of conversations where there's a little bit of sort of the covid safety protocol negotiation that has to happen in order for people to get together. So while I wouldn't lean on it 100% as, oh everybody is going to do this with me, I would be comfortable reaching out with something that lets the other person know the ways in which I would be comfortable meeting up

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Speaker 1: and it might be that I start by just being honest and recognizing that these are still tough times with now omicron out there

00:27:55

Speaker 1: and you'd love to be able to gather in a way that makes you both feel comfortable and safe and then I would state, you know, I'm, I'm happy to meet via zoom if that works for you or we could go for a walk or grab a cup of coffee outside any of the things that you would be willing to do, I would put up front

00:28:12

Speaker 2: and then and

00:28:14

Speaker 1: that's kind of like just saying what you're willing to and I don't want to say that you then turn around and say what you're not willing to do. I think almost we kind of, I don't want to completely admit it because at some point you might need to say it doesn't sound like that'll work for me,

00:28:28

Speaker 1: but if someone really is saying, well I'd really like to treat you to lunch and you might have to say, oh, I really, I so appreciate that gesture.

00:28:36

Speaker 1: It means quite a lot to me. Unfortunately, because of how I'm choosing to manage covid protocols for myself, I think I'd be comfortable dining out with you if you're comfortable that I, I choose to keep my mask on and probably I am not going to order anything. You know, it's like, I don't want to prevent the other person from doing what they feel comfortable doing, but at the same time, acknowledging that the thing they're suggesting for you might mean mask on the whole time,

00:29:04

Speaker 1: whereas they might be expecting a mask off in both of you ordering. I think it's kind of nice if someone is offering to treat you to something like a lunch that you're able to balance the expectation of what that lunch would look like

00:29:17

Speaker 1: and then balance it against some of the other options that are available. Like we said, the zoom call or going for a walk or an outdoor coffee or maybe an outdoor meal might feel more comfortable

00:29:27

Speaker 1: and so I might, I might try and present it that way but um definitely piggybacking on everything dan has already said about starting off with how appreciative you are of this particular contact reaching out and and wanting to get to know you

00:29:41

Speaker 2: as I listened to

00:29:42

Speaker 2: our answer developed, I'm realizing that both of us are operating from the assumption

00:29:47

Speaker 2: that you wouldn't

00:29:49

Speaker 2: accept the invitation without saying anything, Show up to a meal where you've been invited by someone who's gonna treat you to lunch and then not order anything and leave your mask on the whole time. That I think you and I are both very clear agreement and that we haven't even allowed for that as a possibility that

00:30:07

Speaker 2: the good course of action here is some sort of communication ahead of time that

00:30:12

Speaker 2: unfortunately you can't just easily accept this invitation

00:30:16

Speaker 2: based on your current safety protocols and that that's

00:30:20

Speaker 2: going to require a little bit of communication ahead of time to either

00:30:24

Speaker 2: modify what you're saying yes to or that that you would have to say no to the invitation but that it would probably be pretty awkward to show up without having laid that groundwork at all and then not eat um or or or take off a mask for an entire meal

00:30:38

Speaker 1: dan, do you have any other tips for how Angie might be able to help nurture this particular contact because it does sound like a pretty important contact within both her region and her field of work.

00:30:50

Speaker 2: Absolutely and this is maybe the most important part of a job search and that's the networking network network network, the person who's most likely to hire you next.

00:31:01

Speaker 2: There's someone who knows someone you know right now.

00:31:04

Speaker 2: So the focus can always be on maintaining and having good relationships with people. But then as you build and grow those relationships you really want to nurture them. And

00:31:14

Speaker 2: the best advice for that is to follow up. Don't just treat it as a one off opportunity.

00:31:19

Speaker 2: In the best possible scenario. This is the beginning of a process of getting to know someone. So be looking forward to writing that. Thank you note very quickly when you walk out the door and be thinking about the kinds of follow ups that you might make with this person. Either to

00:31:37

Speaker 2: continue to develop that relationship or maybe

00:31:40

Speaker 2: um get other names or contacts or or really start to work on building that network out from this particular meeting,

00:31:48

Speaker 1: Angie, congratulations once again on your graduation and on making some moves within your field right out the gate. We really hope that you're able to engage this meeting comfortably and confidently and that it helps get you to the next step.

00:32:04

Speaker 1: Scientists think that most colds are caused by extremely small micro organisms called viruses, viruses and there are many different kinds of them can be scattered with each particle of saliva and mucus.

00:32:20

Speaker 2: Our next question is about wedding hosts.

00:32:23

Speaker 2: Hello lizzie and dan, I've listened to the podcast for so long that I feel like I know you many thanks for all the insight you've provided for navigating social interactions over the years

00:32:34

Speaker 2: now. I've got a situation that I'm hoping you can help us handle correctly.

00:32:38

Speaker 2: Our only daughter will be getting married this spring,

00:32:41

Speaker 2: she will be having a lovely 75 person wedding which we are paying for in its entirety. That's fine. She's our only child and we can afford hosting this event.

00:32:50

Speaker 2: She is Uber organized and preparing to order her invitations. Her father and I are concerned about invitation wording. Is it wrong for us to hold the mr and mrs robert jones invite you to verbiage.

00:33:05

Speaker 2: We are after all hosting this party,

00:33:07

Speaker 2: I may be jumping the gun on anticipating our daughter and future son in law may wish to have some other wording but would love your input in our heads as we approach this wedding planning step.

00:33:18

Speaker 2: I guess I'm asking for a sample script,

00:33:20

Speaker 2: Thank you again for making this a more gracious world. On a very personal note, we moved from Vermont one year ago listening to you each week is yet another way we can stay connected to our beloved state.

00:33:31

Speaker 2: I hope you know that your casual references and depictions of some quintessentially Vermont things resonate far and wide mother of the bride.

00:33:39

Speaker 1: Oh, that it is always so touching to your people who've known and appreciated like where you live too, you know. Um so while I'm sure Vermont is sad to no longer have you all here.

00:33:50

Speaker 1: Um it's I am so glad our podcast can, can produce a point of contact for you for that and it's, it's snowing outside,

00:33:59

Speaker 1: it's like all the lovely things Vermont is in the winter right

00:34:03

Speaker 2: now. I will second that we are happy to provide a point of connection to the state that we love to

00:34:09

Speaker 1: when it comes to the wording. That classic Vermeij about mr and mrs, I think you used the names, robert, jones requests the pleasure of your company or the honor of your presence is would be used for like a house of worship at the marriage of

00:34:24

Speaker 1: that is very traditional wording and it might be worthwhile as you go into

00:34:30

Speaker 1: talking with your daughter about placing the order for those invitations to say that you know, there are lots of different ways to um or that you recognize, there are lots of different ways to word your invitations and if

00:34:45

Speaker 1: you and future husband don't have a particular wording that you as the host of the wedding, would love to use this particular wording or this traditional wording

00:34:56

Speaker 1: that might be one way to go. I would also be willing to think about the inclusive nature that a lot of people tend to lean to for wedding invitations nowadays and it is, I want to say that without heavily implying that the language

00:35:16

Speaker 1: we've just mentioned is not inclusive in some way.

00:35:19

Speaker 1: The language that we just mentioned is perfectly fine. It is perfectly correct. There is nothing wrong with it.

00:35:26

Speaker 1: But there are a lot of couples nowadays who either because they're the ones doing all the organizing and planning, even if someone else is footing the bill or they really want to include parents who maybe didn't get the opportunity to contribute to the wedding or who couldn't contribute to the wedding

00:35:41

Speaker 1: to be seen as hosts as well. That combinations of either something like together with their families and then listing the couple's names or listing all the parents, whether that's

00:35:54

Speaker 1: two sets of parents, whether that's a set of parents and a single parent, whether that's four sets of parents divorced, you know, divorce and remarried.

00:36:02

Speaker 1: It does strike a really inclusive kind of and together as a group. We're doing this feel to it, which a lot of people lean into nowadays. So I think one prepping that your daughter may have that perspective on it

00:36:17

Speaker 1: is a good thing to just be prepared for and prepared to maybe hear that that's the direction they would like to lean in.

00:36:23

Speaker 1: But I think it's also okay for you to offer your perspective and say, you know, we come from a generation where traditionally the bride's parents paid for the wedding and they are considered the hosts of the wedding. I think sometimes it gets a little

00:36:38

Speaker 1: complicated for my generation gen uh what am I am a millennial, you're gen x because we often feel like we're so a part of the planning of the wedding that we are a host when technically it's the people who are paying, who are hosts and then there's this wonderful, inclusive nature that says really anybody can be a host, they don't have to pay for the wedding. And I think it's a, it's kind of a messy little area

00:37:03

Speaker 1: that I think if you approach it with as much kind of optimism and inclusivity as possible,

00:37:08

Speaker 1: the better off it generally is

00:37:11

Speaker 2: lizzie post, you know that I turn to you when it comes to a wedding invitation wording questions and I was thinking about this

00:37:19

Speaker 1: as well

00:37:20

Speaker 2: as did I when, when the big moment came in my life and even then I also then turned to Virginia Kaiser, who I needed so much help from. Thank you Virginia.

00:37:29

Speaker 2: I see that as one of the great moments in our relationship. I don't think it probably registered with you as being that significant, but it was very important for me.

00:37:36

Speaker 1: Wedding

00:37:38

Speaker 2: invitation wording is something that

00:37:42

Speaker 2: people don't understand. I didn't fully understand how um

00:37:47

Speaker 2: what a point of concern it can be, but then I got to the moment where I was going to be sending out final proofs that I knew the size of the check that we'd be writing for them and all of a sudden it mattered a lot. And I understood the calls that we get at the Emily Post Institute where people want to go through letter by letter,

00:38:06

Speaker 2: what they have on a page with us just just to be sure

00:38:09

Speaker 2: it would have been such a relief in my life. If

00:38:13

Speaker 2: my bride's parents had approached me with a worded sample language that they preferred, all ready to go, I would have seized that opportunity so fast that your head would have spun. And I love it as a suggestion that if you come in really thinking about sort of the totality of what

00:38:34

Speaker 2: you would like to see and as a host, if you're making an offer, as part of that suggestion that this is something you'd like to have input on and you'd like to help with. I think that whole approach is one that is likely to get a really good response from your daughter and her future spouse.

00:38:52

Speaker 2: So from a just very human perspective, I really like that part of the advice. The other thing that I was thinking about was really from a

00:39:01

Speaker 2: from a very etiquette e perspective,

00:39:04

Speaker 2: ultimately, every individual, every couple have a lot of autonomy and a lot of choice about how they want to be represented. And

00:39:13

Speaker 2: if the broader language of the invitation becomes something that there's more discussion about. I think one of the places that you can very comfortably hold the line and it doesn't need to be like a a stand that you make that with, you know, great certitude, but I think it's something you can have confidence in

00:39:31

Speaker 2: that the end result is that you're going to have complete control over

00:39:36

Speaker 2: how you and your husband are listed on this invitation or how you're named on the invitation, if not how you're listed because

00:39:44

Speaker 2: that is really a choice that every couple gets to make for themselves and that. I think maybe knowing that and being really secure in that might make it easier to have some of the other discussions about what is communicated with different kinds of of wedding invitation wording

00:39:59

Speaker 1: dan. I think that is a really important bottom line to hold, no matter who's on what invitation is that

00:40:06

Speaker 1: the host should be listed with their names and titles as they prefer to see them listed. I also think there there is a place where I could see if let's just say, and mother of the bride, I'm not saying you feel this way. So, so please don't don't worry, not putting words in your mouth. But if you were of the mindset where the phrasing

00:40:25

Speaker 1: together with their families, maybe you even go into the conversation with your, with your child about it as as like being open to that. But then when you really see it and you really think about how much you spent and how much effort you put into this wedding. It, it really feels like you the host have now gotten lost in this invitation somewhere. And

00:40:44

Speaker 1: from an etiquette standpoint, it really is totally fine. But from a personal standpoint, some people just say, boy, I just really don't

00:40:51

Speaker 1: feel recognized and I really would like this recognition and I don't want to begrudge anybody that, but you might come into it with um language that has you ready to say boy, I really would appreciate seeing

00:41:05

Speaker 1: the invitation or at least our names appearing on the invitation or using a form of wording that allows our names to appear on the invitation.

00:41:14

Speaker 1: That would be something that would make me as the mother of the bride and as someone who's helped coordinate all of this really feel confident and excellent and excited to send out these invitations and if you were feeling like there was kind of one that really did it for you.

00:41:32

Speaker 1: I think speaking up and saying that if you get a lot of pushback,

00:41:35

Speaker 1: be open to that, be willing to hear it, as dan says, it really is about the couple and this really is for their day and how they want to be representing themselves. And I think it's important if you feel differently about that if you're really in one space and the couple is really in another, that you do talk that out and kind of find out where

00:41:54

Speaker 1: each of your desires are coming from. You may be surprised.

00:41:58

Speaker 1: Um it may be that when your daughter says boy it really let us include his parents or made it feel like it was about us more than who was throwing it. You might hear something in the reasoning that comes from the couple

00:42:12

Speaker 1: that softens you to it. Or at least you'll be able to have a conversation where you're letting someone else know your perspective

00:42:20

Speaker 1: and how you feel about it and view it and see it and that that might help influence them. There are no guarantees with this conversation unfortunately. And both versions of the wording would be perfectly appropriate from an etiquette standpoint. But I think what mother of the bride here is really looking for is how to navigate this conversation

00:42:38

Speaker 1: and to to find ways to both talk about what they're used to as well as

00:42:43

Speaker 1: what the couple is envisioning. So my hope is the mother of the bride. That conversation goes really well and that with their answer, you feel confident about both, what you'd like to see and what possibilities are out there.

00:42:55

Speaker 2: Best of luck with the rest of the planning

00:42:58

Speaker 1: and a big congratulations to your daughter and her partner.

00:43:02

Speaker 2: The plans for all these marriages are plans to spend money

00:43:06

Speaker 2: for every marriage starts a home. And

00:43:09

Speaker 1: to start at home requires initial spending that's covered

00:43:12

Speaker 2: by savings, gifts and

00:43:14

Speaker 1: carefully budgeted incomes.

00:43:23

Speaker 1: Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at the Emily Post dot com. You can leave a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463.

00:43:38

Speaker 1: You can also find us on social media on twitter. We're at Emily Post on instagram, we are at Emily Post institute

00:43:45

Speaker 1: and on facebook were awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media posts so that we know you want your question on the show and don't forget we are trying to pre record for preparation of a paternity leave in a six week vacation. You chris

00:44:00

Speaker 1: and so we are really looking for your questions. If you've ever thought boy I have a question, I should send it in now is the time. Give us a call. Shoot us an email. We would be so grateful for you.

00:44:27

Speaker 2: If you're enjoying awesome etiquette, please consider becoming a sustaining member. You can find out more about this by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette. You'll get an ad free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content more to come on that soon. Plus you'll feel great knowing you helped to keep awesome etiquette on the air and to those of you who are already sustaining members. Thank you so much for your support.

00:44:53

Speaker 1: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer and the topics we cover and today we have feedback from Alison. I'm

00:45:02

Speaker 2: super late, catching up, had some feedback to the Children at the wedding, feedback. When I was planning my wedding, I outright asked my sister, the only parent among my sibling group if she preferred to have her kids at the reception or not, and went from there, we had an 18 plus reception, the kids eight and under at the time, played a part in the ceremony of the wedding, got gifts from us and got to be a part of our day and then headed off for the evening with their aunt and uncle, my brother in law's sibling.

00:45:30

Speaker 2: This worked well for everybody in our case and could be a best of both worlds strategy

00:45:35

Speaker 1: Allison, thank you so much for the suggestion. No worries on being super late. I'm still hoping that someone who's going through the archive is going to write in about the pizza toppings debate,

00:45:44

Speaker 1: but thank you so much for another suggestion for how someone could possibly handle this for each couple, each wedding, each family, it's gonna be a little bit different and we love having a variety of options.

00:45:56

Speaker 2: Super late is no problem. When your suggestions are so

00:45:59

Speaker 1: good lizzie,

00:46:01

Speaker 2: we forgot we actually have two pieces of feedback. Do you want to read

00:46:04

Speaker 1: the second? Sure dan. This piece of feedback came from the listener, I don't know if you'll remember this one, but they were attending meetings at a restaurant and they weren't sure if they should be ordering food or not.

00:46:17

Speaker 1: The feedback begins. Thank you so much for responding to my question. I like your suggestions and we'll start ordering a small item twice a month. I will continue to tip them well for their service and tasty food.

00:46:29

Speaker 1: I've listened to your early and more recent episodes on tipping.

00:46:34

Speaker 2: Well I love getting the follow up but it's so great to hear how something worked out and the impact that it might have.

00:46:41

Speaker 1: Thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please keep them coming. You can send your feedback or update two awesome etiquette at the Emily Post dot com or leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 K. I. N. D. That's 8028585463.

00:47:01

Speaker 1: Mm hmm.

00:47:09

Speaker 2: It's time for our post script segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette and today we're going to read from the 1922 replica edition of the original etiquette, which was published in 1969 and includes a forward from Elizabeth post our grandmother.

00:47:24

Speaker 2: She talks about manners changing and how often the things we are concerned with stay the same. But the venue or a tire look different

00:47:32

Speaker 1: Elizabeth begins

00:47:33

Speaker 1: although the surroundings have changed the setting is an airplane instead of a train or the dinner is a barbecue on the patio rather than served at the dining room table.

00:47:44

Speaker 1: Our problems of etiquette are not so different today. Souffles still fall at the wrong moment are temporary. Help may still stack the dishes. We still forget names when we make introductions. Emily Post provided answers to difficult situations that were practical, gracious and correct for her day.

00:48:06

Speaker 1: There are many people who resent the changes in manners that have occurred since then. They spend their time moaning about the good old days which they see through rose colored glasses. They forget that every past generation has had the same feelings about. For example, the often heard belief that the current

00:48:25

Speaker 1: younger generation is headed straight for disaster,

00:48:28

Speaker 1: showing how very similar to today's were the thoughts of 50 years ago. Emily went on to write

00:48:35

Speaker 1: quote.

00:48:36

Speaker 1: It is commonplace to remark that older people invariably feel that the younger generation is speeding swiftly on the road to perdition,

00:48:46

Speaker 1: but whether the present younger generation is really any nearer to that frightful end than any previous one is a question that we of the present older generation are scarcely qualified to answer. To be sure, manners seem to have grown lax and many of the amenities apparently have vanished.

00:49:08

Speaker 1: It is difficult to maintain that youth today is so very different from what it has been in other periods of the country's history, especially as the quote. Capriciousness of beauty.

00:49:22

Speaker 1: The quote, heartlessness and quote carelessness of youth

00:49:27

Speaker 1: are charges of a two suspiciously dramatic flavor. To carry conviction. End, quote

00:49:34

Speaker 1: these words could well have been written today Elizabeth L post.

00:49:40

Speaker 2: Okay, that is so awesome.

00:49:41

Speaker 1: That

00:49:42

Speaker 2: is like hearing your grandmother reflecting on your great great grandmother and the generational passage. And I think of mud Elizabeth post our grandmother who wrote that as

00:49:54

Speaker 2: a keeper of tradition in my life. And to hear her talk about the way the traditions that she kept were so different than the traditions that she had inherited and was meant to steward.

00:50:05

Speaker 2: There's just a delicious story within a story going on here that lizzie post, that's just so much fun to hear.

00:50:12

Speaker 1: Well I love the, it's the repeat that they're, they're both writing the same thing and you know, in our seminars, we have this version of this conversation to where

00:50:22

Speaker 1: every generation sort of looks back nostalgically

00:50:25

Speaker 1: at either the one that grew up in or the generation that came before it and says, you know, oh boy, those were the good times. And you know, we're, we're headed straight to demise and I think it's a, it's, it is a constant feeling that we have and it's important to recognize that

00:50:42

Speaker 1: often when we look back as Elizabeth says, we're looking through those rose colored glasses.

00:50:48

Speaker 1: It's so strange by the way calling her Elizabeth, I keep wanting to say mud, which is the name we called her. But what I love is being Elizabeth's grandchildren, reading her words as she reflects upon the the two generations above her Emily saying the very same thing and I really love that. Um I know that both women actually really respected youth

00:51:12

Speaker 1: and really respected the sort of

00:51:14

Speaker 1: promise that that youth brings to the world. The potential maybe is a better word that the youth of any version of today brings to the world. And I both like that encouragement that we're not just gonna dump on the new,

00:51:28

Speaker 1: but instead you really embrace it. Um and and think about how it's going to function and work with the traditions of old.

00:51:37

Speaker 1: And to me it was very encouraging and it made me feel very much like I went for a walk with one of our younger cousins from the sixth generation over the christmas break and he was very sweetly asked me how's the etiquette thing going, you know that etiquette thing you do and and I just loved

00:51:56

Speaker 1: thinking about him and Anisha and Aria and and my niece and nephew and

00:52:03

Speaker 1: all the kids in our family and whether or not they take up this mantle if they'll have some version of post script like this and whatever endeavors they take on where they're like our older cousins were doing it when there and their grandmother was saying the same thing that our great, great, great grandmother was saying.

00:52:22

Speaker 1: So I kind of, I do love the generational aspect about it, but it really, it really rings true to me is that etiquette is and always will be a combination of tradition and looking forward to see what's coming next. Um, and I think our, our book that's coming out this year really represents that and I think that the institute represents that and that's one of the traditions.

00:52:43

Speaker 1: I'm really excited that we've carried on in this 100 year tradition that we have going,

00:52:49

Speaker 2: thank you so much for the reminder to look back, but not too nostalgically and to look forward, but not too critically

00:52:57

Speaker 2: and to to enjoy our place wherever it is and to understand it a little bit better. I certainly feel like I do having looked back through the generations nice find lizzie post.

00:53:08

Speaker 1: Thank you.

00:53:09

Speaker 1: Right.

00:53:10

Speaker 2: But just as important

00:53:11

Speaker 1: as laws are the

00:53:12

Speaker 2: rules and usages of courtesy and consideration,

00:53:15

Speaker 1: which we call good

00:53:17

Speaker 2: manners.

00:53:18

Speaker 2: They come

00:53:19

Speaker 1: naturally where people

00:53:20

Speaker 2: have a high regard for each other.

00:53:27

Speaker 1: Mm

00:53:27

Speaker 2: hmm.

00:53:30

Speaker 2: We like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world and that can come in so many forms today. We have a salute from

00:53:40

Speaker 1: lizzie

00:53:41

Speaker 1: because I really appreciate the opportunity to give the salute. I actually tried to give this salute about a month and a half ago and and just couldn't hold it together throughout. So I'm going to try again. I think I think I can do it this time.

00:53:53

Speaker 1: Um so sadly this fall, I lost my cat denim meaning that he passed and it was after 18 years of being together. I got him when I was in college as a tiny runt of a kitten and he has traveled

00:54:07

Speaker 1: with me to California and back dan. I'm sure you remember him being in the car on our three day drive from coast to coast,

00:54:15

Speaker 1: but he was a wonderful being in, in my life and I know that he impacted some of my friends and roommates. Really importantly, they often said, I felt like your cat was protecting me on a day. They were sad or something like that And

00:54:31

Speaker 1: it was such a shock when after 18 years you kind of no longer have

00:54:36

Speaker 1: this wonderful being in my life and I know that a lot of people now recognize the importance of animals in our lives if we choose to care for them. I have to say that I was really overwhelmed by how kind everyone was to me during this loss. You know, I'm thinking

00:54:58

Speaker 1: it's a really busy busy time dan and I are hard pressed on a deadline and there's so much to do, I wasn't feeling like I could take time off for this and dan, you gave me so much space to grieve this and not only that, but Brigitte sent me a condolence card that absolutely warmed my heart

00:55:20

Speaker 1: and then I had friends and past roommates who when I did let them know they reached back out to check in repeatedly even to say their own goodbyes.

00:55:29

Speaker 1: You know, a part of me is missing, but I was really shown that I have a whole community who cares about me and who I am. I'm almost getting through it, who cares about me and who remembers and loved my wonderfully sweet, snuggly, amazing cat denim. And I really wanted to offer a salute to all of those who reached out or were supportive during those tough times. Um you really

00:55:55

Speaker 1: do make a difference in the lives of those you touch when you decide to reach out to someone. Um and so I just want to say thank you uh and salute the people who did that in my life.

00:56:07

Speaker 2: Well you're most welcome cause and we will certainly Miss Denham.

00:56:13

Speaker 1: Well thank you everyone for listening this week

00:56:17

Speaker 2: and thank you to everyone who sent us something and everyone who supports us on Patreon,

00:56:21

Speaker 1: please connect with us and share this show. However you like to share a podcast with whomever you feel would benefit or be interested in listening

00:56:30

Speaker 2: to the show. You can send us your next question feedback or salute

00:56:34

Speaker 2: by email to awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com. You can reach us by phone or text at 802858 kind that's 8028585463 on twitter. We are at Emily Post on instagram, we are at Emily Post Institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette and the Emily Post Institute.

00:56:53

Speaker 1: Please consider becoming a sustaining member. It's an excellent way of showing support for the show and you can do this by visiting patreon

00:57:02

Speaker 1: dot com slash awesome etiquette. You can also subscribe to the ads version of our show on Spotify or your favorite podcast app and please consider leaving us a review there. It helps our show ranking, which helps more people find awesome

00:57:17

Speaker 2: etiquette. Our show is edited by Kris Albertine and assistant produced by Bridget Dowd.

00:57:22

Speaker 1: Thanks.