Episode 384 - Introduction Reprise

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Speaker 1: maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social courtesy. That's old fashioned

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Speaker 2: watch act as host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person. Real friendliness.

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Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to awesome etiquette where

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Speaker 1: we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty.

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Speaker 2: On today's show, we take your questions on having to baby showers, officially introducing yourself to someone You've already seen a few times

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Speaker 2: making professional phone calls and announcing a change of address following your divorce for

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Speaker 1: awesome etiquette sustaining members. Your question of the week is about thanking a work mentor as you transition

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Speaker 2: into a new job plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a postscript on holding your utensils from our upcoming 20th edition of Emily Post etiquette. All that's coming up

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Speaker 1: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Snowy Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute. I'm lizzie Post

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Speaker 2: and I'm dan post Senning

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Speaker 1: because it's friday as we record this and I'm really ready for the weekend because two things are gonna happen and I feel like they're very now because they involve virtual classes. But the first is that I'm going to jump up to doing either a 45 minutes or an hour long yoga class from the Patreon yoga teacher that I support Sara Diedrich

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Speaker 1: and I've been really excited to now be a patron on patreon as opposed to a creator and so it's been really fun. I highly recommend go find something you're interested in. It's it's really fun. I've been waking up each morning and

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Speaker 1: I set the little categories of all of Sarah's post to 30 minutes and I do a 30 minute yoga with her on and I

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Speaker 1: I pick whatever is feeling right. So if like the hamstrings feel tight, I picked the hamstring party one or if I'm there all recorded, they're not live so I can do them at my pace, that sort of thing. But that's been like really, really great. So not much etiquette in that particular one, but on sunday,

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Speaker 1: sunny and I are doing a new tricks class for from fetch the leash which is the dog training group that I've joined when I first got him and

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Speaker 1: I love these classes so much. They are a ton of fun and I like them because you and I talk a lot about virtual etiquette. There's a good section in the book. In fact, it's it's a broken apart section because there's many different places. We end up using this, this for reasons that we end up doing virtual stuff

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Speaker 1: and we are often talking about the, you know, like

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Speaker 1: to show up on time, bring what you need. Obviously like those things still apply but to get to kind of be on the floor working with your dog. Sometimes it's not working well. Sometimes you're like running out of the room while they're working on a stay in the room, you're like all over the place.

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Speaker 1: It's a really fun, different way to be participating as opposed to kind of like sitting in a meeting or doing some kind of like, you know, video work, like we're delivering tips or something like that. So I'm actually like really kind of geared up for my, my streaming and internet and and virtual experiences that are coming up for the weekend.

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Speaker 2: I love what you're bringing to the show today so much, I can't

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Speaker 1: even tell you, I'm glad

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Speaker 2: there are multiple layers to the love that I'm feeling right

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Speaker 1: now.

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Speaker 2: First of all, just as someone who um I found yoga very um transformative experience in my wife and I'm just given

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Speaker 1: the line, you always give me get

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Speaker 2: me to a yoga

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Speaker 1: class. I finally did. I've been

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Speaker 2: saying that for

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Speaker 2: as as long as I've been at Emily, but as long as we've been working closely together since I returned from California, the family black sheep telling people to go to yoga classes and it's just, it is, I've got a grin on my face, ear to ear to hear that you're not only doing it, but that you're really enjoying it and that you feel like you're getting drawn in deeper and deeper because I, I do think that a lot of the rewards come from the practice and just congratulations on that I'm so excited for you

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Speaker 1: and once

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Speaker 2: you start talking about video classes, I'm amazed at how many connections start to form in my mind.

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Speaker 1: Funny that

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Speaker 2: wasn't the first place in mind when you talked about joining as a patron, I've had that experience. There are some, some people that I know that that

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Speaker 2: put their work on Patreon and it's one of the best and easiest ways for me to support them. That was how I first got introduced to it

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Speaker 1: totally. But

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Speaker 2: um pooja discovered a banjo UKulele teacher that she

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Speaker 1: does want the name of by the way. I

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Speaker 2: wish I could just, I wish I could promote it right now on the show. I will, I will definitely get it for us but to have a banjo UKulele lesson going on in your house and to sort of wonder what's happening and then here it's all happening through Patreon,

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Speaker 2: it was sort of fun for me,

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Speaker 2: Anisha has had an experience, she does a hip hop dance class and

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Speaker 2: depending on what wave of the pandemic we're in different students attend or don't attend.

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Speaker 1: She came

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Speaker 2: home the other day and we're saying oh did you see your friend in class? Oh no, I didn't see so and so

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Speaker 2: but I did see so and so and I was trying to figure out what it was and I asked her and her friend had been participating via video and they had set it up and and and he's just trying to tell me that they have a tv that's just enormous in the dance studio and she's like, it's big, it's big, it's bigger than your tv downstairs dad, it's huge and I was just like ah um but apparently it's big enough that that some of the remote students are able to dance and the kids who were in the class can see them and and it actually sort of virtually simulates the situation a little bit. Yeah, Anyway, all these things and then the final one and I'm so surprised that talking about video classes brought so much up in my mind, I completely forgot to cancel a masterclass subscription, I got recharged for another year

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Speaker 2: and rather than call a complaint and try to get it removed. I've been thinking to myself, I love so much that's on that masterclass program, I'm just going to keep it and resolve that I'm gonna spend a little less time on netflix and a little more time on masterclass in the coming year.

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Speaker 1: Totally, totally. I'll be interested to hear what you end up choosing to do,

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Speaker 2: who knows? Right now, I'm just feeling so inspired, I just want to say it again, thank you lizzie post what a great way to start friday. Well

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Speaker 1: you're welcome, I should say, since we say that you're welcome is not a dead phrase and also I'm just grateful to to be a part of it and to have stuff to engage with

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Speaker 1: and I'm really looking forward to this dog class with sunny, it's always so so much fun and it's so cool to see the other dogs and kind of jump back into that fetched the leash community that I really appreciate. So I'm looking forward to that. But

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Speaker 1: in order to get to our weekend we've got to, we've got to record a podcast so that on monday there's a show to air.

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Speaker 2: Shall we get to some questions?

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Speaker 1: Let's do it.

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Speaker 2: Let's do it.

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Speaker 1: Awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions. You can email them to awesome etiquette. Emily Post dot com Leave a voicemail or text at 802858 K I N D. That's 8028585463 or reach us on social media on twitter. We're at Emily Post install on instagram. We are at Emily Post institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette.

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Speaker 1: Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media posts so that we know you want your question on the show and don't forget right now we are asking for you to send in as many questions as much feedback and as many etiquette salutes as you possibly can so that we can pre record our chauffeur dans upcoming paternity leave and chris's upcoming extended vacation.

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Speaker 2: Our first question this week is titled two babies and two showers,

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Speaker 2: lizzie Daniel and team. I'm looking for some help. My sister in law is do with twins next spring. She and my brother are not finding out the genders of the baby until they are born. We have recently started discussing a baby shower

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Speaker 2: since they are not finding out the genders. My sister in law wants to have to baby showers, one before the babies are born and one after the babies have arrived.

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Speaker 2: My question for you,

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Speaker 2: is it typical to have two showers when you're expecting twins and not finding out the gender until birth?

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Speaker 2: How do you split up the guest list? Does everyone get invited to both showers? I certainly don't want my family members to feel obligated to come and buy gifts for both showers.

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Speaker 2: How do you not offend anyone with what shower they get invited to

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Speaker 2: help

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Speaker 2: your thoughts and guidance would be much appreciated signed soon to be ought to twins.

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Speaker 1: These are really great questions to be asking, especially with the idea of twins dan, I'm thinking of how parents of twins and some parents go one way, some parents go the other way and some parents do a combination of both things, but I know that parents of twins often juggle the idea of like

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Speaker 1: two birthday parties or one birthday party, you know, and there's a lot of give give the twins their separate identities and also celebrating the twin nous of twins is awesome and so different parents will end up doing different things at different times and it's why I'm not terribly surprised to hear the idea of maybe two showers.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't sure if if the idea is that

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Speaker 1: since what we've been presented with, from what I can tell is the idea that we would have two showers, one before the babies come. I'm guessing to to provide for a lot of the things that you're going to need right out of the gate.

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Speaker 1: And then the second, once the babies are here and we actually know the sexes of the babies, which sometimes changes what people choose to get. Sometimes it doesn't, I think a lot of companies

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Speaker 1: have done a really fantastic job at making their toys, their um like bedding and blanketing type things, you know, all the necessary things, all the clothing, everything not so gendered and so it can be, it can be an issue. Some people really want to do the pink and the blue or something like that. Um and some people want to stay away from it.

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Speaker 1: It's not bad to have two showers. I do think that when it comes to baby showers, you probably want to stick to one type of guest list for one shower and one type of guest list for another shower rather than making having everyone invited to both.

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Speaker 1: There are often crossovers like siblings who get invited to both or like a best friend who might be invited to both.

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Speaker 1: But as I'm just first imagining this, it's not that any of this is out of the norm, but it does create a situation where you do want to make sure you're balancing both your intentions and the sort of expectation and obligation you end up creating with the invitation. Well, so that people don't end up feeling offended or don't feel like, oh, here we go again, you know, and I think it's it's really delicate because

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Speaker 1: when it comes to celebrating a baby, you want the answer to always be of course, celebrate as much as possible as the new babies, you know,

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Speaker 2: know the etiquette around how you throw a party where the gift giving to the guest of honor is an expected part of the guest participation

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Speaker 2: adds a layer of care that's just required, no matter what you're doing, even if you're just planning one shower,

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Speaker 2: you have to stay aware of that, that underlying concept and principle, that you're both inviting someone and asking something of them. And

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Speaker 2: we've seen

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Speaker 2: the trend of allowing for more and more

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Speaker 2: deviation or breaking off from the old rules. I'm putting that in air quotes as I say it, you only do one shower because it's about setting up the

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Speaker 2: the house for the couple or the family for the baby or the parent for the baby,

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Speaker 2: and

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Speaker 2: we now see

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Speaker 2: second showers, whether we call them sprinkles or whatever. However we want to classify the shower that might happen for a second child. People do do it more in the spirit of celebrating the arrival of that child than

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Speaker 2: that older principle of this is really a practical thing about setting up a future parent in a way that they probably weren't prepared earlier in their life at a different stage in their life

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Speaker 2: with twins. I I love the way you have connected the thinking that parents often have around birthdays to this, thinking around the shower and it's so it's such a natural connection and yet it's one that hadn't occurred to me before we got this question.

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Speaker 2: And in some ways I'm wondering if you couldn't

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Speaker 2: lean into that thought that I think is often the thought about the birthday that I think the parents who choose to celebrate it together go to, which is that

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Speaker 2: for this particular event,

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Speaker 2: the twin nature is something really special about it, that there are lots of times when you get to celebrate people's individual accomplishments and achievements, but particularly the birth of twins is something that they share and maybe sharing those celebrations is something that makes a lot of sense.

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Speaker 2: I would be thinking more about that question than the question of before and after the birth,

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Speaker 2: as far as when you have the shower

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Speaker 2: To me that starts to walk up to a line where we're really organizing the parties around the anticipation of exactly what kinds of gifts people would be giving.

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Speaker 2: And it starts to just feel a little different to me than

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Speaker 2: then just the question of are we, are we celebrating the birth of this child? Or is it really about setting up the parents? Um, and I say this child, I mean the individual child in this case, each of the individual to end as opposed to the intent of the party really being about um

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Speaker 1: setting the parents up. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think one of the things soon to be on two twins

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Speaker 1: is up against here is that you have an honoree for a shower that sees the events going one way and you have hosts or people who are going to be significant participants in the shower potentially seeing things a different way.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's, it's a hard space to be in and it's one of the best things you can do in this space is to have

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Speaker 1: some clear considerate and candid conversations about even just asking your sister in law since you're the sort of designated host for this or potentially one of the designated hosts. Um, what her goals are and what her hopes are and

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Speaker 1: you can sometimes offer observations on, oh boy might really either confuse people or, or they might feel like a lot is being asked of them if we invite them to two showers. How about we make sure the guest list to each are different

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Speaker 1: because I know that's, that's perfectly okay. Um, that might be 11 way to lean into it. Um, but I'll be honest, I think for me, I would probably be, maybe this is selfish dan. You can tell me if it's not, but I would be encouraging my sister in law to have one shower before and to not worry about

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Speaker 1: getting gifts that are gender specific at this point

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Speaker 1: or that are specific to the sexes of the babies and instead do one before that really is that traditional sense of preparing us for things. I have been to showers after the baby is born and they are lovely. It is wonderful to get to see the baby or in this case the babies and and have it be um

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Speaker 1: sort of a combination of a shower and what's often referred to as a sip and see

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Speaker 1: where you come for. Maybe like a little champagne, you know, toast and and to welcome the baby and and that sort of thing. Um

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Speaker 1: that being said soon to be on two twins. I really can't stress enough that it is the honoree and they're they're in a state that's already you know pregnant with twins is a lot on a person and I think that as much as you can both lean into supporting their wishes and make sure that

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Speaker 1: you're identifying what's going to work

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Speaker 1: well for guests as well. Just as an important part. I would imagine that your mom to be your honoree will find their way with you to a solution. That's going to feel really good.

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Speaker 2: I absolutely love that language of the sip and see when you were saying, oh there's something people call this, the word that jumped in my mind was a viewing

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Speaker 2: that was just

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Speaker 2: I knew that wasn't right, but it isn't um I'm really sorry about that but that the the idea of a sip and see is really sweet and you're right, it's so lovely. And if it were me and I was thinking about how to manage that

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Speaker 2: careful conversation with the guest of honor where you talk about

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Speaker 2: what their wishes and desires are and what you as a host can reasonably expect of yourself and to do. And there are all kinds of versions of that conversation that are perfectly appropriate hosts have to draw lines, all kinds of places. Sometimes it's about

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Speaker 2: venue size or cost or um the size of a guest list. And so so there there is a framework in a way of thinking about this that's, that's firmly within etiquette that I think is really helpful and maybe talking about your willingness to be part of hosting that that sip and see after

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Speaker 2: it gives you the ability to direct it a little bit and not call it a shower where the expectation of gifts is so squarely planted on people. But

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Speaker 1: if they weren't

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Speaker 2: part of the shower, they could still come and then that would be an opportunity to give a little something but it doesn't put the same pressure on them. You had mentioned not having the same

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Speaker 2: people involved on the guest list if you were calling

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Speaker 2: to party showers and I completely agree you wouldn't want to double invite anyone to a shower unless they were part of that Close click, That kind of hosting click. But I think that that starts to provide an avenue to both honor their wishes. Maybe putting a little extra effort on your own part because no one

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Speaker 2: is expecting you to host parties before and after birth is hosting a shower is taking on a lot

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Speaker 2: and to ask yourself to take on even more to make that process easier is something you would have to decide about for yourself. But it's I think it's one option that might be really helpful here. Soon to be aunt of twins. I hope that our answer helps and that you're able to keep the focus on the excitement of the arrival of this very special pair.

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Speaker 2: She has been to any number of little parties like this, but this is the first time she has given a party all by herself, like everyone else. She thinks that her etiquette is perhaps not perfect, but good enough so that there are no glaring errors.

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Speaker 1: Our next question is titled introverts and introductions. Hi, dan and lizzie, Thanks for your always awesome show. I'm wondering if you can provide a sample script for a shy introvert, me who wants to make an introduction to someone in a gathering when I should have done so long ago.

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Speaker 1: For example, at my daughter's Girl Scout Troop where I attend every week, there are other mothers who have been in the same room the whole year.

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Speaker 1: I have never introduced myself and the longer I go the more impossible and awkward it seems, is there a friendly way to introduce myself and apologize for what may seem like standoffishness on my part.

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Speaker 1: I find myself in this situation often I'm terrified of introducing myself and meeting new people, but often find myself surrounded by people I regularly encounter at church at school functions etcetera

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Speaker 1: who I feel I should know by name and be on friendly terms with help Rachel.

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Speaker 2: Oh Rachel, I

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Speaker 2: I just want to help as much as I possibly can. This is such a common situation for people to find themselves in and I can't help but think of a Nisha's last hockey practice. Yes, I get to take an issue to hockey now

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Speaker 1: and

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Speaker 2: you know, as the parents are mingling around and we're all in jackets and masks and a good percentage of us in masks.

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Speaker 2: I found myself introducing myself to a number of people and a couple of people who I knew quite well I introduced myself to and it was there was like a moment of awkwardness around that. But it also, I think was just so helpful for all of us and we're gonna be spending the whole winter together doing that.

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Speaker 2: So I really wanted to be sure that

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Speaker 2: at some point I made the connections and even in those instances where

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Speaker 2: I made the worst possible mistake that you can make, which isn't that bad, which is introducing yourself to someone who you already know or who you have already done an introduction with.

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Speaker 2: We were able to move past it just so easily and breathe easily and I just, I know that we're going to talk about the structure of a self introduction, how you can lean into it. But

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Speaker 2: um, even if the absolute worst case were to happen, it is, it is such a little thing to get past for all the rewards that are reaped when you're able to connect with people and know each other's names.

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Speaker 1: I feel like I did a radio interview this fall where there was, there were two guests and the other guests was a psychologist who wrote a book and she talked about social anxiety and how

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Speaker 1: Like 84% of us experience social anxiety at what she calls quote unquote, really normal levels. Like it's just, we get really nervous about these types of situations or that um, you've got to walk into a new place and maybe maybe you wish someone could meet you in the parking lot to walk in through the doors with you and get you to the new place that these are all

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Speaker 1: really, really common situations for us to feel a little unsure about. One thing that I tend to buck myself up with when I'm in this type of situation is the fact that, hey, wait a second,

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Speaker 1: all these other people haven't introduced themselves to me either. Like they're sitting in the same boat, There's no worse behavior on my part than there is on anybody else in the group who hasn't made an introduction towards me. And so that gives me a lot of courage to just say, okay, I can be the one

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Speaker 1: to do this, I can be the one to start this. I feel good about doing that. I want to make these connections, I wish I had made them earlier, Let's fix this. And it's such an easy fix because it's just walking up and owning it, right. It's saying, you know, I'm sorry, I've never formally introduced myself, I'm Rachel, it's been really great to be in this group with you this year.

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Speaker 1: If someone said that to me, I would be like, oh my gosh, I know I was thinking the same thing, like I've got a whole year and haven't introduced myself to anyone. Thanks so much for introducing yourself. You know,

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Speaker 1: you can see how it could be a really easy back and forth. And as dan says, if you did get caught in the situation where someone goes, yeah, I know we met at and then they list maybe your church gathering or something else or, or even an introduction that you forgot about earlier in the year or something like that.

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Speaker 1: That's when you can just say, oh my gosh, thank you for reminding me. I'm so sorry I forgot I had that happened to me on the golf course this year. Oh, we've met before. Oh my gosh, thank you for reminding me, I'm sorry, I forgot. And it was easy. We had a great round of golf, but I think taking a minute to realize that you aren't alone in this,

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Speaker 1: that you haven't really done anything bad or terrible

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Speaker 1: can help relieve some of that anxiety or nerves or pressure around all of it. And to recognize that introductions are often very welcome.

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Speaker 1: It just for me, it puts me all those things kind of start to stack up and give me that forward momentum to move in and actually extend the hand or give the wave before not doing handshakes right now, that sort of thing.

00:24:08

Speaker 1: Just sort of take the agency and go for it

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Speaker 2: Lizzy. I love both the actual sample script that you had there and also the spirit that you delivered it with the language. English, I'm sorry, I've never formally introduced myself or we've never been formally introduced.

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Speaker 2: It can sound very fraught. I'm sorry, it's an apology too formal. Oh no, there are all these things to keep track of, but it's, it's, it doesn't need to be like that or feel like that. There's the ease with which, oh my I can't believe I haven't or I'm sorry, I haven't or and

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Speaker 2: the idea of acknowledging the formality of the introduction just gives you an option an excuse to lean into a structure that is

00:24:49

Speaker 2: whether people realize it or not incredibly familiar and that's just the process of sharing a name and believe it or not. All of the little components that we break down and talk about when we talk about self introductions on the show

00:25:02

Speaker 2: are things that most people are doing automatically on a pre conscious level without even thinking about it. You just there included was the, the idea of the handshake maybe being a part of it. I often at this moment choose to shake someone's hand or offer to shake someone's hand. And even though that oh, it's such a formal, that's a business gesture. Could feel very stilted. There is also something incredibly warm about putting your hand out and reaching out to someone

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Speaker 2: and providing that opportunity to really connect and and solidify that introduction. We aren't always shaking hands as easily these days, but oftentimes that's another component that could feel formal if approached some ways but can also feel incredibly friendly, warm and welcoming when approached with that spirit. So I think that spirit that you bring lizzie is just as important as the exact words that you say.

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Speaker 2: It can be as simple as oh hi, I'm I'm here with anisha today, my name is dan. The particular words might be different depending on the scenario or the

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Speaker 1: situation, that

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Speaker 2: spirit of

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Speaker 2: I'm here. I'm excited to meet you and I'm and I'm present. I'm available. I'm looking you in the eye, I'm standing up straight, I'm facing you. I'm giving you my attention.

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Speaker 2: Those are all things that

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Speaker 2: I think we assume we're going to do. But it's good to remind ourselves and they're, they're part of what makes that introduction a significant moment. And if you haven't had it yet, one worth finding with someone

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Speaker 1: Rachel, we hope that our answer helps you to feel more confident connecting with those in your community.

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Speaker 1: But all the time

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Speaker 2: he keeps

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Speaker 1: wondering how to make

00:26:36

Speaker 2: friends.

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Speaker 2: Maybe mother

00:26:38

Speaker 1: knows how to make friends.

00:26:39

Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And here our mother's suggestion

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Speaker 2: smile and talk to people. Find good things in people tell

00:26:48

Speaker 1: them the good things that looks easy enough.

00:26:58

Speaker 2: Our next question is titled, pardon my professional phone call

00:27:03

Speaker 2: Hello. What is considered as an appropriate time window to make calls professionally? I am a medical professional in pediatrics and I'm currently calling parents of my patients to invite them to participate in a research study. I feel bad bothering parents while they're at work but it also seems strange to call them outside of normal business hours.

00:27:23

Speaker 2: I also call patients to deliver lab results etcetera.

00:27:26

Speaker 2: Does the nature of the call change the appropriateness of the time it is placed.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for your thoughts anne

00:27:32

Speaker 1: and thank you so much for this question. It's a really worthwhile question. And I think especially for for medical providers or anybody who could be communicating delicate, sensitive, um, whether it's whether it's positive or negative results, you know, um, these kinds of things,

00:27:50

Speaker 1: I think really taking a minute to think about the types of things you are having to communicate when you're choosing to communicate them is a really good idea.

00:28:00

Speaker 1: I think it could be really hard to know when exactly is the best time to reach out to someone

00:28:06

Speaker 1: for me when I'm hearing the two different types of outreach that and might be doing one where I'm delivering like lab results or yeah, just results to my to my patients or to their parents, if it's pediatrics versus requesting participation in a research study.

00:28:24

Speaker 1: I'm actually even wondering if a phone call is the right way to go with the latter. And if not, I'm thinking an email might be better that since this is something that's more outreach and and trying to to gather, gather people in, it's not lab results, it's not, you know, critical information, which I do think

00:28:43

Speaker 1: it's anne's workday to and delivering that type of news during the work day. I can see why

00:28:49

Speaker 1: sometimes you might not want to interrupt a parent at work, especially if it's if it's really going to impact them. But I also know that for the most part when it comes to medical care, people want answers quickly

00:29:00

Speaker 1: and it's also your work day when you are supposed to be delivering these kinds of results and things like that. So for me I would probably parse them a little bit. But rather than by time of day that I reach out, I would do it via methods. So

00:29:14

Speaker 1: the lab results and I've got to contact my patient about them being my patient and and me being their doctor and the things that that we've discussed

00:29:23

Speaker 1: um in a visit and are going to follow up on um I think you know, phone call great if you end up leaving a message, you know, someone can always call you back at a time when they are settled and they feel ready to receive whatever information might be coming. But when it comes to things like that, optional

00:29:41

Speaker 1: participation in a survey or news about what we're gonna be doing around are you know, pediatric offices or something like that. Those things I think are well communicated via email dan. What do you think?

00:29:54

Speaker 2: Just like you, I my mind naturally found a fault line between the two different types of calls And I was saying to myself when you've got something that someone else needs or wants and something that you're professionally providing for them.

00:30:08

Speaker 2: I think that the impetus is on getting them that information, not on managing their reaction or response to it where

00:30:15

Speaker 1: they might be in their day.

00:30:17

Speaker 2: Exactly. So I'm thinking about just the practicality of getting it to them and if I've got contact information that's workday contact information. I'm gonna use it, particularly during the work day if I've got contact information that's home or personal phone, I'm probably going to lean in and use that after hours, particularly if it's test results that they're going to want to know as soon as possible and I'm probably gonna have some some hard limits for myself that after nine o'clock or 11 o'clock or whatever that is, I'm just gonna set that and it just becomes

00:30:48

Speaker 2: this is my professional practice when I get people's results, I move them onto them as fast as I can in these ways and

00:30:55

Speaker 2: it takes that the thinking or the anxiety out of it.

00:30:59

Speaker 2: I'm also really intrigued with the idea about asking people to participate in studies. This is something that I've had some experience with. I've been asked to participate in studies some and as a family, we have some that we've gone with, some that we haven't and

00:31:12

Speaker 2: it is a big ask of people. So my thinking about it becomes almost less one about courtesy, what's appropriate and more one of how am I going to get the best responses? How am I going to get the best results And

00:31:27

Speaker 2: to me, I think either would work for all the reasons that you talked about. Sometimes it's easier to reach people in the workday, but they don't want to talk then sometimes it's harder to reach someone on the workday, sometimes easier to reach them at home, but they don't want to talk then

00:31:40

Speaker 2: I think because you're making an ask of someone you wanna preface your contact with that awareness. So if you are calling someone in the evenings at home, because you found that that's the only time people really have to talk to you or you need to talk to

00:31:56

Speaker 2: someone in their care provider or someone in their spouse or someone in their parent or child.

00:32:01

Speaker 2: And that's the time and place where you can reach them together

00:32:05

Speaker 2: that you just start the call with some awareness

00:32:08

Speaker 2: is now a good time to talk. Is there a time that we could set up to have a longer discussion? I'm hoping to talk to you about and then you give them enough information to know how to respond if that's a good time if they'd like to set it up for some other time or if they're just not interested.

00:32:22

Speaker 2: But I think with that kind of an approach, some awareness that you're asking something of them, that's where the courtesy is going to come into play more than

00:32:30

Speaker 2: is it before or after five o'clock am I using officially designated work number or home number for so many people for me personally, those lines are so blurry and gray. I'm not,

00:32:42

Speaker 2: I'm not looking at that. And my little etiquette

00:32:46

Speaker 2: Antenna don't go up and start to tingle call before or after. five or on the home line that comes into the same cell phone that the work line comes into that cell phone or on the same cell phone that both the home and work lines

00:33:00

Speaker 1: come into totally totally

00:33:03

Speaker 1: dan one final thought for an might be sort of preemptively finding out from her patients when and how they appreciate being reached for such things and keeping that on file for the patient makes it really easy to remember you know when when you've got a lot of people to keep track of

00:33:22

Speaker 1: because the the preferences will no doubt be different for different people and and under different circumstances. But having a general idea of what someone prefers is always helpful.

00:33:32

Speaker 1: I know that my dental office does that and I really appreciate it. And there are things we've set up for, what they can say when they leave a message or they make sure that like a message if they are leaving a message that they know that the line is a private one or something like that. And so different different things you could do for different reasons but um

00:33:50

Speaker 1: sort of setting that up as a part of of their file that you have on stores and isn't a bad idea either. And thank you so much for this question. We hope that you are able to best reach your patience and get that study going

00:34:05

Speaker 2: when

00:34:06

Speaker 1: we talk on the telephone.

00:34:07

Speaker 2: We should be

00:34:08

Speaker 1: kind and considerate.

00:34:09

Speaker 2: It's really very simple if you

00:34:12

Speaker 1: know three words

00:34:14

Speaker 2: please

00:34:15

Speaker 1: Thank

00:34:16

Speaker 2: you

00:34:17

Speaker 1: And

00:34:19

Speaker 2: I'm sorry

00:34:20

Speaker 1: these words are

00:34:21

Speaker 2: important when you are using the

00:34:23

Speaker 1: telephone.

00:34:24

Speaker 2: They will help you to be kind and

00:34:28

Speaker 1: considerate of other people.

00:34:38

Speaker 1: Hi lizzie and dan thanks so much for your wonderful podcast. I learned about awesome etiquette from a friend and have since introduced it to my brothers. We all really enjoy listening and even talking about the topics discussed on the show. Such fun.

00:34:51

Speaker 1: I have a question for you about change of address cards. I find myself unexpectedly in the middle of a divorce. I will be moving soon and I'm really looking forward to this fresh start and small step in the right direction even though I'm in the middle of an incredibly painful, stressful and all around awful time in my life

00:35:10

Speaker 1: would it be considered tacky

00:35:12

Speaker 1: to mail out change of address cards after I move the divorce is not anywhere near finalized. In fact the discovery phase is only just beginning I imagined including a photo of my daughter dog and me in our new home. Does a photo take the announcement from tasteful too over the top.

00:35:30

Speaker 1: Should I only include close friends and family but leave out friendly acquaintances from the announcement.

00:35:36

Speaker 1: I don't want to create the appearance that we are celebrating but I also have nothing to be ashamed of and I want to signal that we're doing all right.

00:35:46

Speaker 1: There's also the practical matter of wanting to be sure that people have the correct address for me,

00:35:51

Speaker 1: Any guidance you might offer would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Shannon,

00:35:55

Speaker 2: Shannon, thank you so much for the question. I hope that our answer can be helpful at what you've described as a difficult time. It also sounds like you're doing really well and I like the way that you're thinking about this and thinking about other people and how you manage this move and this transition,

00:36:12

Speaker 2: transitional times in life are often times, moments where etiquette can be particularly helpful. They can give us both lots of clues about what to do when we're facing

00:36:22

Speaker 2: different or unusual circumstances or just situations that we didn't anticipate.

00:36:27

Speaker 2: They can also provide a really clear framework for navigating things that are pretty routine in people's lives as they go through transitions. And

00:36:35

Speaker 2: in some ways I would want to lean into that aspect of it. If I'm thinking about a change of address announcement, I would really keep the focus on that. It is so practically important that people know how to reach you and what to call you and you can give them all that information with a change of address card

00:36:55

Speaker 2: by keeping that card really simple and informational. You also give yourself the latitude to distribute it very widely. You can be sure to touch everybody in your life that

00:37:06

Speaker 2: you would like to get that information to as well as everybody that it would be important to get that information to. So

00:37:12

Speaker 2: my instinct here would be to follow advice that I think my cousin would also like because I can see her show notes to lean into the idea of keeping that message sort of concise and informational and really taking that opportunity and advantage of that to be able to distribute that widely

00:37:32

Speaker 2: and then to look for other opportunities to follow up and to continue to communicate. The other things that you're talking about wanting to communicate and that are important to communicate that you are well and you're feeling good

00:37:44

Speaker 2: and

00:37:45

Speaker 2: and how you're seeing yourself and your new life at this point in time,

00:37:49

Speaker 2: things like uh annual holiday card would be a natural place to include the kind of picture that you're talking about. And I know we talked a lot about holiday cards over the last month and we might just want to put that thought out of our mind or it might feel like it's infinitely far in the future. But they come around, they come around more

00:38:06

Speaker 2: quickly than we anticipate sometimes by

00:38:08

Speaker 1: Jan 10th by Jan 10th, you're still within the first couple of weeks of the new year. So a new year card, if you squeak it out the door this week, might might still really work for you where that kind of photo and update like that news literary update that a lot of people said is more common and that might be a way to communicate to people that you're

00:38:26

Speaker 1: close with but haven't really been in direct contact with throughout this. As you said, unexpected divorce. It might let them know exactly what you're trying to communicate that we're doing well and we're moving forward and, and we're happy about that.

00:38:40

Speaker 1: Um, I actually saw a number of cards this year that came in over the holidays that were about also introducing everyone to the new space that someone was living in and so it had a new address on it or something like that. And

00:38:53

Speaker 1: It was a nice way to kind of combine both the messages. But if you're feeling like we're beyond that that holiday card time, then I think Dan 100%. You just keep it really nice and clean and simple. I also think that you could always add to that very traditional change of address card

00:39:12

Speaker 1: a little handwritten note

00:39:14

Speaker 1: that says something like you know, loving our new place are really excited to be here and in a very short kind of one line way you can communicate that you're, you guys are doing all right and this is a good move and you're happy about it.

00:39:28

Speaker 1: And I think oftentimes those cards have that feel when you get them, you know, especially if they say something on them like

00:39:35

Speaker 1: um excited about our new place like that sort of thing

00:39:39

Speaker 1: dan. One of the other places that you can do this is with a housewarming too. Is that like an invitation to a housewarming? Could be another way to do this. I'm not sure if if people are comfortable with housewarming right now during, during the current surge that most areas are having, but that would be another way to communicate this to a group that

00:39:58

Speaker 1: kind of sometimes has a mix of people who are really close to you and sometimes like the new neighbors or some colleagues, things like that, you know

00:40:06

Speaker 2: Exactly,

00:40:07

Speaker 1: exactly

00:40:08

Speaker 1: Shannon regardless, we are really excited for you and your big new move at this point in your life and we hope that you are looking forward to a very bright 2022.

00:40:23

Speaker 2: Thank you for your questions, please send us updates or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463. You can also reach us on social media on twitter. We are at Emily Post on instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute

00:40:45

Speaker 2: and on facebook we are awesome etiquette. Just remember use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the

00:40:52

Speaker 1: show.

00:41:01

Speaker 1: If you love awesome etiquette, please consider becoming a sustaining member of the show by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette.

00:41:11

Speaker 1: You'll get an ads free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content plus you'll feel great knowing that you helped keep awesome etiquette on the air

00:41:21

Speaker 1: to those of you who are already sustaining members. Thank you so much for your support.

00:41:26

Speaker 2: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer in the topics we cover today. We have feedback from Abby on tipping for take out and from Marcia on red flowers in the garden.

00:41:38

Speaker 1: Hi lizzie and dan, first of all, sorry to spell your name wrong in my last email is the. Oops, totally. Okay, Auto correct. Makes it a y

00:41:46

Speaker 2: all the time. No worries.

00:41:49

Speaker 1: I did want to offer one piece of feedback about the question of tipping on take out, which you addressed helpfully in a recent episode.

00:41:57

Speaker 1: I do like the idea of tipping 10%, which is probably just a couple bucks and tipping for take out is especially helpful to restaurants during COVID, but I can think of another consideration.

00:42:09

Speaker 1: My piece of feedback is that I think take out could be sort of a daily necessity for some people who work long hours and don't have time to cook. I don't necessarily mean people who work 40 hours or so. I'm especially thinking of cleaning staff, I know of who work over 80 hours a week.

00:42:26

Speaker 1: I agree. It is nice for people working well paid 40 hour week jobs to add a tip on there, take out orders if they want to, but I don't think people who work multiple low wage jobs and rely on take out to make their daily schedule possible should feel like they should tip

00:42:42

Speaker 1: even if this is just suggested and not required, in fact they may be choosing the take out option because there is no room in their budget for tips. I don't think tipping on take out has always been the norm and I would hate for this cost to creep up on people.

00:42:59

Speaker 1: I found one etiquette writer online who argued you should just order something cheaper if you can't afford to tip but I really don't think everyone's budget challenges are due to expensive tastes.

00:43:11

Speaker 1: I appreciate all the advice on tipping and I started tipping a little on take out instead of nothing because of one of your episodes I listened to months ago, very useful. Happy New Year Abby

00:43:22

Speaker 1: Abby, I really appreciate this perspective, I will be honest, I feel and dan, you can tell me if your experiences this way too, but I feel like a lot of the time I am hearing calls and cries to raise tipping, raise, tipping tip more tip more and I think one of the reasons we've always um

00:43:42

Speaker 1: I don't want to say defended but I will say support the advice that we still give, which is that tipping is discretionary in some places and that 15% is a minimum and things like that are because of exactly some of the things that Abby has listed here. Um and I think it's really important to recognize that dining out

00:44:01

Speaker 1: isn't just a luxury that we do for a lot of people, it is a necessity

00:44:07

Speaker 1: and they may be working within a budget within that necessity and it's it is really important just the same way. It is so important for us to always be thinking about the workers who are making this food available to us and how we can support them.

00:44:21

Speaker 1: It's also really important to think about the customers too. And I just really appreciate the balanced perspective there.

00:44:29

Speaker 2: Abby, thank you so much for the feedback

00:44:31

Speaker 2: in our next piece of feedback. Marcia responds to lizzie post. Big reveal that Emily Post did not like red flowers in her flower garden

00:44:41

Speaker 1: TMZ level news. People

00:44:43

Speaker 2: perhaps Emily did not like red flowers in her garden

00:44:46

Speaker 2: because the power color that red is, seems in most cases to take the spotlight and drown out the lovely pastels and jewel tones.

00:44:55

Speaker 2: Having admired her for all of my lifetime because of my mother and grandmother's respect for her knowledge and wisdom in wanting things done correctly.

00:45:03

Speaker 2: I kind of feel the same way at my previous home. The only red I used out of all my flowers were four read don juan climbing roses placed in strategic places. They did not overpower any of the lovely flowers that I had grown from cuttings that I took seeds I grew from and one crafting that I did from a camellia

00:45:22

Speaker 2: Note. Always take cuttings 10 days before the full moon. They will take and thrive.

00:45:27

Speaker 2: I like to use root tone to dip each cutting in each at a slant and mix a little ver mickey relating with my potting soil. Thanks a million for being here for all of us. Most sincerely Marcia

00:45:38

Speaker 1: Marcia. Thank you for giving us the opportunity to dive a little bit into Emily's gardening world. I feel like the two of you could be old chums sitting with a cup of tea between you and chatting about routing and, and cuttings and timing and all kinds of things.

00:45:55

Speaker 1: And I, I do really appreciate that. I am going to have to dive into the family history and see if I can find a reason why Emily didn't like her red flowers. I can't, I can't remember if there is one down or not if it was just a preference because I know she loved red shoes.

00:46:09

Speaker 1: That was like a big thing for her

00:46:11

Speaker 2: lizzie Post. I'm going to send you an invitation to that flower club because I know that you got yourself a cutting flower garden going this summer and are definitely ready ready to join the club. Marsha. Thank you so much for your

00:46:26

Speaker 1: feedback

00:46:29

Speaker 2: and thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please do keep them coming.

00:46:33

Speaker 2: You can send your next feedback update or question to awesome etiquette Emily post dot com or leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 802858546

00:46:45

Speaker 1: three.

00:46:57

Speaker 1: It's time for our post gripped segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette and today we're going to talk about how to hold your utensil. This is so etiquette geek out territory

00:47:08

Speaker 2: followed by Cymbal crash.

00:47:11

Speaker 1: That was terrible. That's not what a drum roll and Cymbal crash sound like.

00:47:17

Speaker 1: Um but I've gotta, I've gotta peel back the curtains for our audience here. This was one of the hardest parts of our book that that we wrote last year and we'll be getting out to all of you this year.

00:47:28

Speaker 1: We rewrote this section about three times over. I feel like at different stages, I feel like at one point we felt secure about it in the first round of edits and by the second round of edits, we went through like two more iterations of it and I'm really pleased with with where it landed, but it's, it's such a,

00:47:48

Speaker 1: an interesting space for us because you do have to describe so much about both the hands

00:47:54

Speaker 1: and the utensils themselves and where they are meeting and how in order to get a good visual for someone to be able to actually execute this and I cannot tell you audience how many times dan and I both ran to the kitchen to grab our forks, knives and spoons and they were just sitting at our computers after that because we had to just keep constantly picking them up and seeing if what we've just written would actually cause someone to pick up and hold their utensils

00:48:21

Speaker 1: quote unquote right way. So I thought dan that maybe today would be a good day for us to to read a little preview of the 20th edition and some of its most tickety tock critical advice.

00:48:32

Speaker 2: I know I can't wait to revisit it and you're so right lizzie post, you would think that how to hold utensils would be squarely at the center of any etiquette book and being such a concrete physical things would be relatively easy to define and describe. It might be one of the

00:48:48

Speaker 1: first things you check

00:48:49

Speaker 2: off your list.

00:48:50

Speaker 2: Um

00:48:51

Speaker 2: I do remember the different iterations, will be so curious now reading this excerpt where we landed and

00:48:59

Speaker 1: this is definitely different from using utensils, which is where we start talking about things like the european and american styles and that sort of thing. So this is sort of the precursor to that.

00:49:10

Speaker 2: So shall we begin with holding utensils? Yes, if we accept the idea that eating can be a difficult task, then an approach to doing it that is controlled, precise and well tested is advisable.

00:49:23

Speaker 2: There is a difference between a fist clasped around a utensil plunged into a piece of food as though stabbed and a precision grip used to maneuver the food with dexterity.

00:49:32

Speaker 2: Holding your utensils properly gives you control over both your implements and your food. Hold your knife in your dominant hand and your fork and your other hand. When used alone without a knife, your fork is held in your dominant hand

00:49:46

Speaker 2: when cutting. Hold the fork times down with the handle in the palm of your hand, close your middle ring and pinky fingers around the handle of the fork. Place your index finger on the back of the handle just above where the head and handle join. Use your thumb to securely grasp the fork.

00:50:02

Speaker 2: Hold your knife the same way with the blade down, but always in your more dominant hand because it is the most dangerous utensil and you want full control over it

00:50:11

Speaker 2: when using a fork or spoon to scoop something. Hold it in your dominant hand and adjust your grip so the times or bowl are facing up.

00:50:19

Speaker 2: The handle rests on top of the Perlich you of your hand. The curved space between your thumb and index finger, your middle finger is under the neck of the spoon where the bowl and handle, join your index finger rests on top of the same spot and the thumb rests naturally on the side or top of the spoon's handle to balance the ring and pinky fingers

00:50:38

Speaker 2: support the middle finger by resting under them.

00:50:40

Speaker 2: It's a similar grip to how many people hold a pen or pencil.

00:50:44

Speaker 1: I'm I'm hoping, I'm hoping some of our audience has broken out their forks and knives and gave it a try.

00:50:50

Speaker 1: Um I think illustrations

00:50:52

Speaker 2: that are promised here in the subtext that should be helpful as well.

00:50:56

Speaker 1: Should be there will be illustrations for this as well, but it's such detailed etiquette. It's so much I think what a lot of people think an etiquette book is going to sound like through and through

00:51:08

Speaker 1: and as you audience know, we mix in a lot of the consideration, respect and honesty, kind of perspective as well and even a few jokes, but to me it's so satisfying to read about, you know, the handle resting on the Perlich, you'll of your hand and describing what that is, That little web and and thinking about how this particular grip while there's this full description of it. It closes with something so incredibly familiar, which is the way that most people end up holding a pen or a pencil. Um and it's a very, very familiar kind of grip after all of that description. I really appreciate what we did there just to pat our own backs just a little bit. Well,

00:51:49

Speaker 2: let me put your backs of war. I love that you dug out an excerpt,

00:51:53

Speaker 1: but but but

00:51:55

Speaker 2: you found it and brought it to our post group today and I'd love to see more of it. I'd love to do some more excerpts for post scripts over the course of this year As we get closer and closer to that book being available in september.

00:52:07

Speaker 1: I think we can definitely make that happen.

00:52:10

Speaker 2: Can I put in a request? Can I put in a

00:52:11

Speaker 1: request? We got so

00:52:13

Speaker 2: specific and concrete on this one. Could our next one be a crh section. Could we read something that's aspirational.

00:52:20

Speaker 1: Good hearted. I think that's a very good idea.

00:52:24

Speaker 2: Well, I'm on tender hooks. I can't wait.

00:52:27

Speaker 2: Mm hmm

00:52:28

Speaker 2: experts on etiquette suggest to you that the eating of meat with the left hand is preferable to zigzag eating mostly because it is simpler and not because it is a continental custom

00:52:38

Speaker 2: but using the left hand correctly does not excuse oversized bites even with the best of intentions.

00:52:45

Speaker 2: Betty is imitating the others until she can think the matter over.

00:52:49

Speaker 2: Mhm

00:52:51

Speaker 1: separate.

00:52:52

Speaker 1: We like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world and that can come in so many forms and today we have a salute from avery high

00:53:03

Speaker 2: all I have a quick salute for the manager of the museum in my hometown.

00:53:07

Speaker 2: I am wheelchair bound and not many places in my small town, especially during the snowy season are wheelchair accessible.

00:53:14

Speaker 2: My art is going to be featured in the museum in town this month and knowing about my disability. The museum manager put a wheelchair ramp in just for me so I could attend the exhibit and help hang my paintings. Many thanks to her Avery

00:53:26

Speaker 1: avery this is an excellent salute. I am so glad that the museum is supporting you in this way and

00:53:33

Speaker 1: that that ramp will support future wheelchair users and make the museum that much more accessible. That is just that is an excellent excellent salute

00:53:42

Speaker 2: avery, thank you so much. Those small hometown museums are such special places. They are protectors and keepers of our history. Big and small and I'm so happy that you will get a chance to be featured there and that they were able to work it out so that you could participate in the space. Congratulations on your exhibit and thank you so much for the salute

00:54:03

Speaker 1: and thank you audience for listening

00:54:07

Speaker 2: and thank you to everyone who sent us something and everyone who supports us on Patreon,

00:54:11

Speaker 1: please connect with us and share this show with your friends, family coworkers, anybody that you like to share podcasts with in any way that you can,

00:54:21

Speaker 2: you can send us your next question feedback for salute by email to awesome etiquette. Emily post dot com. You can leave us a message or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463 on twitter. We are at Emily Post on instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute and on facebook we're both awesome etiquette and the Emily Post Institute. Please

00:54:43

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00:54:53

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00:55:08

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