Episode 388 - Second Wedding Gift

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Speaker 1: maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social courtesy. That's old fashioned

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Speaker 1: act as host and hostess. They know that courtesy means, showing respect, thinking of the other person. Real friendliness.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm.

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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to awesome etiquette where

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Speaker 2: we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty.

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Speaker 1: On today's show we take your questions on not wanting to pay for a second group wedding gift, not wanting to discuss your health with a family member

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Speaker 1: giving Emily post books as gifts and not wanting to eat around others

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Speaker 1: for

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Speaker 2: awesome etiquette sustaining members. Our question of the week is about keeping coffee around for your guests

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Speaker 1: when you don't

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Speaker 2: drink it yourself.

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Speaker 1: Plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a postscript on dining etiquette through the years from Margaret visitors, the rituals of dinner all

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Speaker 2: that's coming up,

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Speaker 1: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute.

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Speaker 1: I'm dan post Senning

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Speaker 2: and I'm lizzie post

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Speaker 2: it is good to be with you as well dan and it is, it is a fine day. It's a beautiful day here in Vermont but it is also a zero degree day here in Vermont. It is cold

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Speaker 1: minus two according to the thermometer on my car.

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Speaker 2: It is minus two. And I guess being like bundled up in the house. It was a good way to receive the realization that I made a really stupid email faux pas.

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Speaker 2: Oops!

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no. And the worst part is that I didn't even realize I made the mistake dan had to point it out to me,

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Speaker 1: okay, I didn't call to point out the mistake, I just wanted to be sure that, you

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Speaker 2: know, we're talking about aware

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Speaker 1: of, of what um I was aware of

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Speaker 2: and I was not, it was really good that you pointed it out because I was not audience. What happened was was that we

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Speaker 2: were emailing back and forth with some people outside of the Emily Post Institute and and they were a team and dan was our point person.

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Speaker 2: So sometimes the emails that got sent would just go to dan, and

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Speaker 2: often when that happens, he forwards them to me and when he did that on this particular occasion, I didn't notice that he had not forwarded me, but B. C. Said me. And so when I hit

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Speaker 2: reply and what I actually hit was reply all oops, lizzie, what I didn't notice was that there was another person that ended up on the reply all and my very casual and making a joke

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Speaker 2: totally like offhanded being really casual. I remember sending it from my phone because I used an emoji in the joke about who is this lizzie with a Y person that you worked with dan, being like joking around auto correct almost always puts my name as a Y.

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Speaker 2: So I'm really used to receiving emails from people outside our organization where my name is a Y and

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Speaker 2: this particular time it had happened a couple of times and I was just feeling jokey about it. And so when I responded back to dan, you know, with a casual response to the news we've received for them and the joke, I didn't know that I sent it to the people who had sent us the email to begin with,

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Speaker 1: it couldn't be a more classic email etiquette mistake.

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Speaker 2: I'm such a boob, but you're not, you're

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Speaker 1: funny. And I think that helped in this particular

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Speaker 2: really funny is that dan. And I had had like a real like the briefest of like, you know, we're on the phone talking about all kinds of stuff and we touch base about this reply, oh you saw that, that you know this thing has been postponed. We were like yeah yeah

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Speaker 2: and like the joke about the who's lizzie with a Y. And then

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Speaker 1: it was

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Speaker 2: really interesting because after that I was working last night and I saw an email come in from this third party apologizing for having misspelled my name and with like a crying emoji after it. And I was like I was like wow, they must have like E. S. P. Or maybe dan like mentioned something to that or maybe he just realized it on his own. Like

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Speaker 2: when he saw something, I don't know and that's not at all what happened because I was sitting there not realizing my response had gone to him as well pointing out that the joke about my name, oh, dan, so oblivious am I?

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Speaker 2: So I wrote back to him a really nice and friendly email that was like, ha ha ha, no worries at all.

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Speaker 2: Like it happens to me all the time when I type my own name and auto correct. Like we're so thrilled at the prospect of working with you in the future. Like let us know if we could be of any help. I echo all my cousins sentiments

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Speaker 2: just not realizing at all that there was this middle email that this guy had seen. Oh, it's such egg on face, dan and not that

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Speaker 1: much egg you you are the beneficiary of your own good nature. And I think that ultimately

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Speaker 1: your general good spirit and observance of,

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Speaker 1: I would say one of our broader etiquette principles of

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Speaker 1: don't

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Speaker 1: B a person with

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Speaker 1: grievances all the time, be someone of good nature of good humor and conduct yourself in a way that you could own

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Speaker 1: what you're saying or what you're doing with anybody. Even even if it is an internal email, if your internal emails are pretty solid, it doesn't matter if one slips out because they slip out. That's the nature of email.

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Speaker 2: Are you saying that my use of the laughing crying emoji, like the laughing emoji that's laughing so hard, it's crying

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Speaker 2: and rolling on its side was enough to, to warrant this is I was really joking and like just teasing and like I didn't mean to send this guy this email

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Speaker 1: or

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Speaker 2: and you're saying it like that, that's the good nature, that's worked for me because I don't think my oblivious nature has worked for me on this one.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I think you're interpreting what I'm saying the way I intend and the crying emoji brings up the laughing, crying emoji brings up another classic email etiquette question, which is, is the use of emojis and emails appropriate

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Speaker 2: and

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Speaker 2: in this case it saved my

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Speaker 1: official answer is generally you want to avoid it, particularly fresh emails, new emails. If you're

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Speaker 1: getting to know someone, they can be interpreted differently. So you want to be really clear with your communication. But there's this growing body of research and awareness and people who are familiar with emojis as a deep part of their communication that they can really add emotional content also. So if you've got an established relationship, if you know someone, if you

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Speaker 1: our two cousins that work together every day and have for decades

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Speaker 1: those emojis actually say a lot and communicate a lot and I do think that it helped bring your good humor and that emotional content to

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Speaker 1: what could have otherwise

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Speaker 2: sounded maybe a little

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Speaker 1: snappier and

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Speaker 2: totally it would have sounded so bad without that emoji.

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Speaker 1: So three cheers for

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Speaker 2: emojis and

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Speaker 1: I so appreciate you're just bringing this up right at the top of the show because there couldn't be any clearer example of how

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Speaker 1: rude behavior or, or even the possibility of rude behavior. The roots of it are so often in

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Speaker 1: a gap in our awareness just some some some blind spot that we carry with us and for whatever reason it emerges in a situation and

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Speaker 1: just reminding ourselves of that I think and laughing at ourselves when it happens to us can help us be generous with other people when we're on the receiving end of it, when you get that email that wasn't intended for you.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank, thank you for the little mini therapy session and trying to buck me up on it because I'll probably still be wearing a paper bag over my face for a little bit.

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Speaker 2: But um I can still answer etiquette questions while we do that. Hopefully my, my credit hasn't slipped too low at this point. But do you think that we should get to our show questions?

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Speaker 1: Let's do it,

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Speaker 2: awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions, You can email them to awesome etiquette at the Emily post dot com

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Speaker 1: leave a voicemail or

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Speaker 2: text at 802858 kind that's 8028585463 or

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Speaker 1: reach us on social

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Speaker 2: media on twitter. We are at Emily Post on instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute

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Speaker 2: and on facebook were awesome etiquette just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with any social media posts so that we know you want your question on the show.

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Speaker 1: Our first question this week asks

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Speaker 1: is to gifts too much.

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Speaker 1: Hello lizzie and dan, thanks so much for your weekly dose of inspiration for more thoughtful and kinder living. I learned so much with each podcast.

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Speaker 1: This one makes me feel kind of embarrassed to ask. But here goes. We've recently moved to a new community and been blessed with many new wonderful and delightful friends truly, we feel so fortunate to be where we are right now.

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Speaker 1: One couple whom we met last year have recently married second for both following divorces and naturally we are all happy for them and wishing them the best. The wedding was intimate with just their Children.

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Speaker 1: A friend is hosting a luncheon for the woman in our circle about 15 or so people and we will all be chipping in for a gift of couples massage for them. Nice.

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Speaker 1: The luncheon will be at a local bistro and we will all pay our way.

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Speaker 1: My dilemma is that another friend has also asked for a donation of $50 for a restaurant gift certificate for them from just a few of us.

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Speaker 1: I'm just not into that second gift.

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Speaker 1: Am I being a scrooge.

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Speaker 1: We are all in our sixties and have the resources to dine where we like I'm all about the massage gift that's a $25 chip in.

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Speaker 1: I think the second gift is a lot to ask. I'm not terribly close to this couple, but we do socialize together in groups,

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Speaker 1: so do I just ante up both times and get over my reluctance, especially since I can't pinpoint why I'm opposed.

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Speaker 1: If I choose to opt out of the second gift, how do I politely let the organizer? No, I'm in on the first gift, but not the second.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for your guidance, reluctant gift. Er

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Speaker 2: Oh, reluctant gift. Er this is a tough little spot to be in and I think it's when a lot of people can sympathize with you, you've just sort of done a luncheon that you as a guest have paid your own way to

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Speaker 2: and then you've also participated in a group gift that you feel really good about it, it's like all that feels really great and you feel good about celebrating this couple

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Speaker 2: and then someone turns around a smaller group of people and I think from the sound of it, and pardon me if I'm wrong, but I think from the sound of it, this is a group that was also in the luncheon, not a separate like friend group or something, it seems like

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Speaker 2: is ponying up and saying, you know, speaking up and saying let's also do this

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Speaker 2: for me, I don't want to say, I question that because I feel like questioning the spirit of the generosity is not a very polite thing to do, but at the same time this other group is branching off to do something more that hasn't even more expensive, buy in

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Speaker 2: and it, I could see how that just feels odd or like it might offset dynamics like why not ask if everyone wants to participate in a restaurant gift certificate as well from this, this group that's all already doing a gift together.

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Speaker 2: I don't know dan is am I being silly about assuming there's a little bit of awkwardness in that or like

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Speaker 2: a little bit of like that feeling that we often try to discourage when it comes to office gift giving of a couple of people doing more or a couple of people doing something special rather than a whole team. This is social though, I hear

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Speaker 1: what you're looking at and and saying to yourself, what's the purpose, what's the intent of that second gift? And

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Speaker 1: I think it can be helpful to ask that question and as far as it might draw you in, if you started to find an intent that you really got behind, maybe

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Speaker 1: this person knows them particularly well, loves this restaurant or knows they love this restaurant

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Speaker 2: and imagines

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Speaker 1: all of you like going together, there's a particular,

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Speaker 1: but if if that's not drawing you in like you, I'm saying to myself, I'm not going to call the motive suspect, but if I don't feel an alignment with them, I'm not going to feel bad about saying, no, I feel really good about this other gift that we did

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Speaker 1: and thank you for offering to include me. Thank you for giving me a chance to be included in that one. But

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Speaker 1: I'm going to opt out of the

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Speaker 1: the group gift that's the restaurant and

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Speaker 1: or that's the restaurant gift certificate.

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Speaker 2: I like your sample script right there in our notes. We made sure to start with that. Thanks for thinking of me. Thank you for including me and then move into your decline and making sure that you just recognize that someone whether from their perspective or yours or both or not

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Speaker 2: is trying to include you in an act of generosity and act of kindness. That's a nice thing to at least say thank you for and thank you for thinking of me for even if you don't think that gift is necessary or something that you want to participate in.

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Speaker 2: So I liked, I liked hearing it in your sample script.

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Speaker 1: Ah well I I learned from the master the thought that I had about where this might have come from, that might that might help is I was imagining someone who's saying boy I know what this person loves is such and such a restaurant. It's their absolute favorite and

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Speaker 1: in order to dine there, you need to get to this number really for for a gift certificate to that restaurant to be useful for someone. So maybe the thing that's motivating this person to ask is to try to make it a more affordable gift for anybody that would want to be participating in that or would want to to get on board with that second gift

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Speaker 1: and in some ways

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Speaker 1: because it's a mathematics question, it's easier for me than to pull the motives out of it and to just

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Speaker 2: say no

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Speaker 1: in this case the math doesn't quite work on my end of things so I appreciate the offer, thanks so much and and and best of luck putting that together. It sounds like a really nice thought or something like that.

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Speaker 2: Damn. That idea is actually making me lean into the other suggestion that reluctant gift or placed in their question which was do I just go for it and participate in both these things and not worry about it because a I can afford it and be these, these are nice people. Even if I'm not the closest to them like you know, just just play along, go for it, don't worry about it.

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Speaker 2: And if you wanted to lean into that, what you actually just said gave me a lot of motivation to be like why not participate. You know, maybe it will bring down the costs for everyone else or could allow this couple to dine at a place that they really couldn't dine at otherwise and that doesn't have to be the only reason. But it I think there

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Speaker 2: there are ways to look at it that when you're not questioning it or

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Speaker 2: running it through that filter of oh goodness, I already did something for them, then you could you could lean in and be like, okay, I could be convinced to do a little bit more, but certainly not something you have to do if it still doesn't feel right. I think that's one of the other points that we make about gifting. Is that a gift really should feel right to you?

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Speaker 2: And so if if nothing, when you think about the situation gets you to that place of

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Speaker 2: Yeah. You know what, why not just participate? There's a lovely thing to do. Then honor those feelings and make the decline and and thank them for offering to include you

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Speaker 1: reluctant gift. Er Thank you so much for the question. We hope that our advice helps that you continue to enjoy your new neighborhood and that you don't feel bad about declining to participate in something like this. As there is no etiquette that says you have to. That's certainly more fun than disputing over it, isn't it? We call this way of settling a dispute

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Speaker 1: a compromise. That's when neither has his own way entirely.

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Speaker 1: Mhm.

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Speaker 2: Our next question is titled medical manners. Hello, lizzie and dan. I'm a longtime listener and I think you may have addressed a question similar to this in the past, but I could use a refresher if possible.

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Speaker 2: I have an in law who asks health related questions about my family that I'd prefer not to answer.

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Speaker 2: I know these questions must be coming from a place of love and genuine interest, but I'm more private and don't care to share these details. Sometimes I feel this person is fishing to discuss an ailment or problem to maybe use it as a way to build a connection question mark and I just want to focus on positives, not dwell on talking about ailments and problems.

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Speaker 2: Is there a good way to politely end these conversations? Do you have any sample scripts? Smiley face?

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Speaker 2: Thank you, anonymous,

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Speaker 1: anonymous. Thank you for the question. And we do talk about versions of this question on the podcast periodically because they're so important and they are related to some fundamental etiquette questions both about our privacy and how we maintain boundaries around privacy in our lives, both

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Speaker 1: publicly and within our personal, our social lives.

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Speaker 1: And then there are also some, I think really good small ball etiquette questions about managing conversations and potentially personal or controversial conversation topics and how you approach those with people.

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Speaker 1: I want to

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Speaker 1: put some etiquette foundation under the house that this answer could be. And that's the, I want to start off by saying this is absolutely a decision that's up to you to make you get to decide how much

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Speaker 1: personal information you want to share, particularly about health and health issues within your immediate family where oftentimes those lines around privacy are are so open and um within households, people oftentimes know so much about each other,

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Speaker 1: taking a lot of care with health information about family members and immediate family members as well as yourself is

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Speaker 1: a really wise thing to do. And from an etiquette perspective whether you're

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Speaker 1: making decisions to share that information or keep it private,

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Speaker 1: thinking about how you do it and handling that with some intentionality is the first step towards doing it in a way that makes everyone feel comfortable both you and the people that you're communicating with in this case, your in laws.

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Speaker 1: And I think one of the first easiest things you can do when you've got a situation like this where you know the particulars, you know the orientation that you want to share, which is that you prefer to be more private about these things, I think you want to be really comfortable putting that out there right off the bat

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Speaker 1: that it's perfectly okay to say something like, oh, I really don't like to discuss the details of that situation or that particular health

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Speaker 1: condition or however it is that's brought up,

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Speaker 1: It's okay to just

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Speaker 1: declined to go into it and to decline to have that conversation and you're not required to give any explanation or reason for it because it is a health related issue. It's a reasonable expectation that other people will respect your privacy.

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Speaker 2: I feel like dan, even when people haven't heard our particular structure of the tears of conversation that places medical and, and family things way up in that third tier of, of pretty private

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Speaker 2: that even if you haven't heard of that before, you've likely heard of the idea that conversations about someone's personal medical history and their personal health

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Speaker 2: aren't general topics of conversation. There's a, there's an awareness typically of the idea that these are delicate conversations

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Speaker 2: even if this person because they're family. I think it was mentioned, they were a cousin thinks they're within that inner family circle. And so they get to ask, you know, which does make it a little bit different. But but there is a general awareness of medical stuff being something that someone might tell you, hey, I don't want to talk about that.

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Speaker 2: And so I feel like being giving, like giving the encouragement to say that is really easy because it's, it's not

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Speaker 2: such a generic topic for us. Such a low hanging fruit topic for us.

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Speaker 1: There's a second part of this question that I find really interesting and I, I

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Speaker 1: I find it so interesting because I love the attitude where there's a recognition that this person might be really genuine in their interest in building connection or rapport around talking about these things. And I like the spirit of seeing that good intention there,

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Speaker 1: but also having the critical eye of

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Speaker 1: knowing yourself well enough and knowing how relationships function well enough that

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Speaker 1: there are other things you'd rather build that connection around. There's other ways you want to, to grow this relationship, besides talking about things that are difficult or hard or just

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Speaker 1: our private in your mind

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Speaker 1: and it's it's a trap that so many people fall into. It happens so often.

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Speaker 1: And I really like the idea of investing in the relationship and talking to this person about your desire to do that and I don't even think it needs to be set up as a counter to this other thing.

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Speaker 1: But

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Speaker 1: talking to someone about how you really like to

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Speaker 1: keep your conversations positive, that you like to approach things with a positive outlook and that that might be enough to start to guide it in that direction.

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Speaker 2: Even just changing the subject to asking them about things about their life and really choosing to be invested in the conversation in the listening can be a way

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Speaker 2: to show someone that you you are really invested in building this relationship and in fact you're invested in hearing about them and and their life and what they're interested in and what they want to do and and that that would be of great interest to you dan. It reminds me of how Emily describes conversations like going fishing

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Speaker 2: and that you kind of like toss some lines out there and sometimes, you know, the bait gets taken and sometimes it doesn't and that's the indication of how to pull back or go forward into something and by

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Speaker 2: consistently driving the conversation towards the topics you're more interested in building a relationship with this person around

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Speaker 2: can be one of those ways to redirect without having to directly correct or call out what you don't want to talk about. I like the direct approach sometimes, but if you were worried that the direct approach might scare someone off of you or if they might not react to it well, you could kind of take that fishing approach

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Speaker 2: and that that more like slight redirection every time they ask about family. Oh,

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Speaker 2: I don't have a good answer for that, but I'd love to talk to you about this. You know those redirection tactics that we've talked about before,

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Speaker 1: lizzie, I can't leave this question without bringing up the other thought that occurred to me when I read it,

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Speaker 2: which comes from

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Speaker 1: a personal place and I'll share just a little bit of what walks up to the line of health information about my own family and

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Speaker 1: that's that my parents have reached that age where they are fully enjoying their retirement

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Speaker 2: and our

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Speaker 1: socializing more than I've ever seen them socialized before with circles of people that aren't connected immediately to my brother and myself

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Speaker 1: and I know that they have agreements with certain people that they hang out with and not agreements but they've reached an accord.

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Speaker 1: They're not going to talk about their minor health issues with each other all the

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Speaker 2: time.

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Speaker 1: That there is a real temptation at their stage in life where that's a big focus for them and the peer group that they socialize with? And

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Speaker 1: there's so much good information that gets exchanged. They learned so much from each other and from their friends who are all going through very similar things or oftentimes are looking for support, looking for help, looking for information that

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Speaker 1: that conversation can very naturally grow and grow and grow and become the bulk of what people are talking about and

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Speaker 1: they want to keep the ability to have those conversations. But they also have been really explicit that they don't want that to be the only thing that they socialize and talk about. And there is I think a way to to maybe acknowledge that also with really good humor and good spirit and

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Speaker 1: it might or might not work for anonymous particular situation, but it was one of the first thoughts that popped up in my mind which is that I've got this very immediate example where I've heard recently about people doing this intentionally as a way to

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Speaker 1: to keep relationships operating in ways that they feel really good about like and and leave room for the good stuff as well as support and helping each other with things that are often times harder.

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Speaker 2: I love it. I love it. That's a great example dan anonymous, a quick apology to you I mentioned, I think that it was your cousin and it was actually your in law and I would like to say that I really hope that our answer helped you navigate this relationship with your in laws. Well, how

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Speaker 1: do you, what do you do every

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Speaker 2: time? I try only make things

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Speaker 1: worse.

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Speaker 1: Is there some particular

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Speaker 2: method of being

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Speaker 1: thoughtful that works every time?

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Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

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Speaker 1: Our next question is about Emily Post as a present.

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Speaker 2: Hi

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Speaker 1: lizzie and Daniel First, I must applaud your podcast, the book and all versions of content produced by the Emily Post Institute. Well done.

00:25:44

Speaker 1: I admire the work and follow your podcast regularly. I also own the book and I'm looking forward to the new addition.

00:25:51

Speaker 1: My etiquette question is actually about the gift of the book itself.

00:25:55

Speaker 1: I have stepchildren who are young adults moving on from the college experience and moving towards law school and life's other endeavors. I have to say that I feel they could use some exposure to this content in both the book and the podcast.

00:26:08

Speaker 1: How does one in my role as a step parent suggest they listen or gift them the new edition of the book.

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Speaker 1: I would love to be coached on the etiquette of introducing Emily Post Institute and all its resources to those aspiring young folks lisa and Sandton

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Speaker 2: lisa ann thank you so much for your question. I love this question. We joke all the time

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Speaker 1: that make

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Speaker 2: the the best gifts.

00:26:32

Speaker 2: But that also comes from hearing from people that they have appreciated it. Or that it was something that they were gifted

00:26:38

Speaker 2: when they were 16 or 18 or at a particular graduation or maybe an engagement or something like that. Um maybe maybe as a housewarming gift. So it comes from a place of reality, this joke of a place of truth, this joke.

00:26:53

Speaker 2: But I really do think that these gifts, you don't have to worry about it, looking like you're telling someone you've got bad manners. And one of the ways to do that is to present the, the book with a sort of like they're young adults. So as you make it on your own or as you're coming into your own, I found this kind of information really helpful and still find it helpful. So I'm hoping it'll be a good resource for you rather than a,

00:27:18

Speaker 2: you need to do what's in here and figure this like life thing out like, you know,

00:27:23

Speaker 2: like two very different attitudes. But oftentimes I find that when this book is given from with the spirit of it's been such a help for me. I hope that it could be a good resource for you

00:27:35

Speaker 2: that people really appreciate it. They find it interesting, it sits on the coffee table for a bit maybe. And then, you know, someone goes through a couple of pages and it leads them to them in another couple of pages or they go to a brunch and they go look something up afterwards and

00:27:50

Speaker 2: you know, it's just things like that happen with it. And so I do think it is a good and gift herbal book and then dan, I've got some ideas about how to get them listening to the podcast, but I'm curious what are your thoughts on the gifting of the book?

00:28:03

Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk book first and I I I think you're absolutely spot on. It doesn't necessarily need to be given as a corrective measure or a scold.

00:28:14

Speaker 1: And the book itself can be presented in a positive way, in so many ways. I love your idea of connecting it to tradition, lizzie to talking about how it worked for you,

00:28:24

Speaker 1: maybe how it was gifted to you at some point and you found it so useful.

00:28:29

Speaker 1: I think that there's something really powerful about involving someone in something like that, something that's that's a tradition that has some history and that

00:28:38

Speaker 1: you could present it as as either just personally, this worked so well for me or I want to hand this onto you the way it was handed on to me that I could think of a number of different angles that put that positive spin on it. I started thinking about that as you went through the lists of a time that someone was likely to give the book

00:28:57

Speaker 1: around a graduation around a

00:29:01

Speaker 1: a change in in in life circumstances, someone gets a new home moves to a new community, gets married,

00:29:07

Speaker 1: those are all transitional moments in life and we know that those are moments where people turn to Emily post that. They're some of the biggest searches on our website, they're the things that bring people to us and the information they look for

00:29:20

Speaker 1: when they find us have to do with things like weddings and births and graduations and new jobs and um important

00:29:29

Speaker 1: moments in life when things change when people go through transitions and putting the book in the context of one of those transitions is a really natural thing to do. And I think instantly places that book in that positive place, that forward looking place,

00:29:46

Speaker 2: exactly

00:29:48

Speaker 1: as opposed to corrective or or about fixing a problem.

00:29:52

Speaker 2: Absolutely dan.

00:29:54

Speaker 2: I've got a two pronged approach for how to bring the podcast into these, these two kids lives with these two young adults lives.

00:30:02

Speaker 1: Got

00:30:03

Speaker 2: it. Okay, so I think you gotta go with make it happen casually

00:30:08

Speaker 2: and also make it personal. The make it happen casually is like when you're prepping dinner or working on a project around the house, have it playing in the background and you know, if they're in the room with you or something like that or like if you all are driving somewhere together, throw it on. Maybe you laugh about a couple of questions

00:30:27

Speaker 2: or how one of the hosts was a real dummy about emailing, like,

00:30:32

Speaker 2: you know, you can try to sort of quietly infiltrated into their lives that way. And then I think the more personal version is that when you hear a question on the show that might pertain to them or something they're interested in or going through uh send them a link to the show with a timestamp of when to queue in. So you're not saying

00:30:50

Speaker 2: you should really listen to this. I think you'd love it. The hosts are great. You know, like

00:30:55

Speaker 2: rather than talking up the show, make it really personal to them like, oh my gosh, I heard this and thought of you listen at, you know, three minutes and 25 seconds.

00:31:04

Speaker 2: That's probably the middle of the intro. But still I think that that's one way to hook somebody when they're not just automatically looking for new podcasts or you know, that they enjoy Q and A behavior shows, you know, things like that.

00:31:17

Speaker 1: I love the idea of sending it time stamped and I know a little beyond my technical capability. I know I've achieved it a couple of times because sometimes you'll even be prompted to,

00:31:27

Speaker 2: oh, I just sending the actual timestamp. I didn't know there was a feature where you could make it pick up exactly where you wanted to wow.

00:31:34

Speaker 1: And I'm trying to remember whether I've done it with podcasts or youtube videos or what, but there's definitely a way to send the link so that it starts at a certain point,

00:31:42

Speaker 2: magical world. It

00:31:44

Speaker 1: really is, it's incredible. I had one more potential add to the list, it would be a very personal way to share the show with someone,

00:31:53

Speaker 1: send the salute, give someone a salute and if you do it

00:31:57

Speaker 1: absolutely share the show with them. And if you can figure out how to time stamp it to the end,

00:32:02

Speaker 2: that's great.

00:32:03

Speaker 1: Um, but I think that's a really powerful way to engage someone and who knows whether it'll earn a new listener to the show, but I guarantee it will make them feel really good

00:32:14

Speaker 2: lisa ann thank you so much for sending in this question. We hope that you and your family enjoy a lot of Emily post etiquette in the future.

00:32:24

Speaker 1: There's a lot to think and talk about on the subject of manners and many good reasons to ask are manners important.

00:32:42

Speaker 2: Our next question is titled Evading eating with others.

00:32:47

Speaker 2: Hello, awesome etiquette team First. Thank you for your truly awesome show. Your episodes never fail to make me feel better about this sometimes scary world we are living in. I'm so glad they have that effect on you.

00:32:59

Speaker 2: I have an etiquette question bouncing around in my head for some time and figured this would be a good time to ask while you're soliciting extra questions for the upcoming vacation and maternity leave.

00:33:09

Speaker 2: I have been with my partner since college and we recently moved to a new city where many of our friends live.

00:33:16

Speaker 2: We love our jobs and the opportunity to see these people that we adore. Well when the virus allows at least

00:33:22

Speaker 2: my partner has a condition called avoidant restrictive food intake disorder. In short for medical and psychological reasons. He is an extremely limited diet. Anderson cooper has the same condition.

00:33:35

Speaker 2: We have been together for long enough that between the two of us, it is not something that causes any wrinkles in our day to day life.

00:33:43

Speaker 2: The problems arise when friends invite us to dinner, whether at a restaurant or at our homes, many of our friends enjoy cooking and eating foods from their families, cultures as well as trying new cuisines. I do too frequently though. This does not align with the few foods my partner can eat without getting sick.

00:34:01

Speaker 2: He does not feel comfortable sharing this part of his life with others, which I respect. I do feel like we are running out of excuses though to get him out of dinners or at least attending a dinner and not eating their oftentimes, he will say that he has to work, quote unquote, not untrue. He does have a very demanding job

00:34:22

Speaker 2: and then meet up with us after the meal. But I worry this can come off as rude and inconsiderate.

00:34:28

Speaker 2: Do you have any sample scripts or suggestions for how we can navigate this as a team? I want him to be comfortable and I don't want to place limitations on our friends. Thanks so much in a pickle.

00:34:40

Speaker 1: Oh, in a pickle, I hope that our answer can help you feel a little less in a pickle

00:34:46

Speaker 1: in some ways. This is a new classic etiquette question while in Emily's Day, we didn't hear a lot about hosts asking about food allergies or dietary restrictions.

00:34:58

Speaker 1: Certainly in 2022

00:35:01

Speaker 1: had enough years behind us where enough people have presented hosts with those

00:35:07

Speaker 1: restrictions and food allergies that at this stage it's almost an expected part of the host guest dance as part of the setting up of events and dinners and

00:35:18

Speaker 1: get togethers that involve food for people to almost as a matter of course, either ask this question of guests or expect to hear something if it's important to know when guests reply to an invitation. So

00:35:32

Speaker 1: I want to start off just by saying that from an etiquette perspective, there's a pretty established part of the host guest dance where

00:35:40

Speaker 1: it's a natural place to do some negotiation around figuring out if their accommodations that can be made or what's the best ways for guests to participate

00:35:49

Speaker 2: dan. You're really right about how comfortable we've gotten with that host guests dance and it makes it really easy when someone does have a food restriction

00:35:57

Speaker 2: or even is temporarily on a special kind of diet or something like that to say,

00:36:02

Speaker 2: hey, I've got this going on, can I bring a dish that meets my needs or hey, I've, I've got this going on and it means I'm really like not eating with other people right now or something like that, whatever it is explaining it and then coming and participating in the meal, whether it's you bringing a dish where it's them making you a side dish that works or making sure there's things that meets your needs or understanding that you just won't be eating the meal, but are there to enjoy everyone's company can all be things that work and fall into that dance very, very easily. And I think friends will be really happy to figure out the ways to best entertain you as a guest

00:36:42

Speaker 2: and to entertain with you and engage with you socially.

00:36:45

Speaker 2: And I think all of that's really great. I think the thing and we don't know this, but in a pickle wrote that the specific condition was avoidant restrictive food intake disorder and that can sometimes come with an aversion to eating around other people or being around food at all. And I don't know

00:37:04

Speaker 2: if your partner's condition is that severe,

00:37:07

Speaker 2: but that would put it in a category where it's a little harder to explain or negotiate why your partner might only show up after the meal. And you know, that sort of part of it is a little bit harder than, oh, he can just bring a dish that meets his needs without explaining something about why this has to happen every time. And I'm not saying that you have to reveal anything at all.

00:37:34

Speaker 2: But I do think that it's important to recognize that if we're pushing into that side of the particular disorder, that it might be harder to find ways to have the conversation with the host have. It makes sense

00:37:50

Speaker 2: and at the same time completely protect his desire to not

00:37:55

Speaker 2: expose any of his connection to the condition.

00:37:58

Speaker 1: I think that it's a really good idea to think about how much participation your partner can do when people are eating, whether it's going to be possible to say yes to invitations that involve meals and dinner being served. And

00:38:12

Speaker 1: that's a really personal choice that you get to make and

00:38:15

Speaker 1: eating together, sharing food, as you acknowledge in this question is such an important social ritual, whether it's people sharing

00:38:22

Speaker 1: their traditions or their cuisine or whether it's trying new foods and taking pleasure in that or whether it's just the simple act of breaking bread together

00:38:32

Speaker 1: that is so significant for families, friends, acquaintances,

00:38:37

Speaker 1: people in business.

00:38:38

Speaker 1: That

00:38:39

Speaker 1: if you're not going to be participating in that social ritual,

00:38:43

Speaker 1: figuring out other ways to engage people so that you are able to build those relationships is another avenue that might be really helpful that it might be that

00:38:53

Speaker 1: while you can't say yes to a dinner party invitation

00:38:56

Speaker 1: that you can reciprocate with afternoon tea or maybe with an invitation to do something that doesn't involve food at all lizzie Post are better at coming up with them quickly than I am. I think the walk is a great idea or

00:39:12

Speaker 1: um, maybe it's watching a football game, but you say we're not going to have the nachos and you let people know about that so that they can come and enjoy the game and not feel like they're missing out on something.

00:39:21

Speaker 2: And I do think that if the food and being around the food isn't as much of a concern and there is a dish that your partner could bring that meets their needs.

00:39:30

Speaker 2: If you're looking for language where

00:39:33

Speaker 2: you're explaining enough about that, your partner needs to bring their own dish, but not fully explaining the condition. I think you could easily say something along the lines of, you know, for a number of different reasons that I won't, you know, go into, you could

00:39:49

Speaker 2: use dan's often use strategy of humor at that point, which I

00:39:52

Speaker 1: will not go into

00:39:54

Speaker 2: detail too,

00:39:55

Speaker 2: either gross you out with or or take your imagination too far. Um, I need to eat a restricted diet or if you, if you don't want to joke around about it. And instead just say, you know, my partner actually, it would be great if you could bring a dish that meets his needs

00:40:10

Speaker 2: because for a number of reasons he's on a really restricted diet. Often that's enough to just have someone say, oh, that's totally fine. Of course we'd rather have him come and enjoy,

00:40:19

Speaker 2: you know, in a way that he can than not. And, and that can just be enough and people don't ask as much when people, when you're then at the party and someone notices you have a different dish and then they say inquire about why that's when I think you can employ some of dan's good sample scripts with the humor dan. What was the one that you had said

00:40:38

Speaker 2: on a similar question earlier? It was,

00:40:41

Speaker 1: oh boy, I care about right now. What's jumping to mind is please pardon my squeamish nature, my squeamish discomfort. I just, I don't like to go into the details, but trust me, it's really better if I bring my own meal or something like that,

00:40:55

Speaker 2: where you put it right on

00:40:56

Speaker 1: yourself, just

00:40:57

Speaker 1: excuse me not wanting to get into all of the details of this, but just trust me or, or roll with my comfort level, talking about it please. And, and and allow me to help you so we can all get together.

00:41:08

Speaker 2: Maybe not that long in the moment, but but the parts of that would definitely absolutely work in a pickle. I can see how you could feel in a pickle with this one, especially if some of the hypotheticals we gave are engaged in this particular scenario, but we do hope that

00:41:27

Speaker 2: for the ways that you can engage

00:41:30

Speaker 2: that you really lean into them enthusiastically so that your friends know that socializing is something you want to be doing with them and making connections is something that you appreciate with them. And that should help you smooth over anything that you're not willing to share at this point in time

00:41:46

Speaker 1: in a pickle. I really love pickles, but I hope that this answer helps get you out of this pickle.

00:41:55

Speaker 1: Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at the Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463. You can also reach us on social media on twitter. We are at Emily Post on instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette. Just remember use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the show.

00:42:30

Speaker 2: If you're a fan of awesome etiquette, please consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette there. You'll get an ads free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content plus you'll feel great knowing that you helped keep awesome etiquette on the air

00:42:49

Speaker 2: and to those of you who are already sustaining members. Thank you so much for your continued support.

00:42:55

Speaker 1: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer and the topics we cover today, we have feedback from Kimberly about the situations we discussed in episode 3 75 and 3 80 Dear Lizzy dan and the rest of the awesome etiquette team.

00:43:11

Speaker 1: Thank you both for all the work you put into creating such a sincere, charming and helpful show.

00:43:16

Speaker 1: You're thoughtful advice has helped me out more times than I can count.

00:43:19

Speaker 1: I would like to offer some feedback on the situations listeners shared in episodes 3 75 the unsolicited cheerleader the listener encountered while outrunning and 3 80 the incredibly offensive comment from a listener's coworker.

00:43:33

Speaker 1: I would like to think that if I were a friend or acquaintance of the offending party who happened to witness such behavior that I would gently inquire as to the person's intentions and question their actions,

00:43:44

Speaker 1: especially when our intentions are pure Though it's difficult to make that assumption about the coworker in episode 3 80

00:43:50

Speaker 1: it can be hard to step outside ourselves and recognize the hurt we have caused.

00:43:55

Speaker 1: The onus should not have to be on the person who was harmed to educate the person who hurt them and a third party can keep the situation from escalating.

00:44:04

Speaker 1: Of course, I don't know if this would have been possible in either of these scenarios, but wanted to throw in my two cents and at least remind myself of how I want to behave in similar situations.

00:44:15

Speaker 1: Thank you again for challenging us all to make the world a kinder more beautiful place

00:44:20

Speaker 1: Best. K

00:44:22

Speaker 2: Okay, thank you so much for this feedback. I love the reminder that as a as a third party and its delicate, right? Sometimes you don't want to insert yourself into a situation or it's hard to critique other people. But there are other times where it can actually be really easy and even helpful and welcomed.

00:44:38

Speaker 2: I always think of it as the you know the the little bird or the family grapevine. Things like that can actually be

00:44:45

Speaker 2: really useful to tap into as ways to allow us to all understand how our behavior is impacting those around us or to understand a little bit more about someone new in our group. I mean there is it's it's a really good thought. I really appreciate you sharing it. Kay

00:45:03

Speaker 1: I know I always get nervous when I hear about correcting someone else or doing something that calls out someone else and at the same

00:45:11

Speaker 2: inserting yourself into a situation. Yeah

00:45:14

Speaker 1: the heart of this feedback really seems to me to be about,

00:45:18

Speaker 1: it's like a look at yourself around getting involved and maybe that the situation here requires that you stand up for someone or that you

00:45:29

Speaker 1: um share a perspective on something that might be illuminating to someone who's not seeing something in a certain way and that you've got more agency or more ability to do that as someone who's not directly involved. So in some ways it's it really is about a look at oneself and I really appreciate K's reminder that we do have that kind of agency and we do have the potential to be those helpers in the world and that sometimes that's really appropriate.

00:45:54

Speaker 2: Thanks again for your feedback que and thank

00:45:57

Speaker 1: you for sending

00:45:58

Speaker 2: us your thoughts and updates. Please keep them coming. You can send your feedback or update two awesome etiquette Emily post dot com or leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463.

00:46:14

Speaker 1: It's time for our post script segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette and today we're going to talk about a passage from Margaret visitors, the rituals of dinner. This comes from page 3 13 where Visser discusses some very old school manners for problems that we still encounter today,

00:46:30

Speaker 2: where people eat with their hands from a common dish. It is etiquette that nothing bitten should be put back.

00:46:37

Speaker 2: It must be eaten entirely by the person who took it

00:46:41

Speaker 2: in the days when it was good natured to share food directly with others at table. People had to be reminded not to offer a pair or some other fruit into which you have bitten.

00:46:53

Speaker 2: Such rules are made largely irrelevant by the modern custom of serving everybody's separate portions, but we keep to the spirit of them by dis likening teeth marks left. For example, in bread, bread is to be broken into pieces small enough to be consumed entire

00:47:12

Speaker 2: and not put back on the side plate,

00:47:14

Speaker 2: teeth marks remind us of teeth and anything bitten is leftovers.

00:47:19

Speaker 2: If a mouthful of meat proves too tough to chew, we are presented with a problem

00:47:25

Speaker 2: in Erasmus Day, It was polite to turn away discreetly and toss it somewhere. The only area that counted and had to be kept clean was the tabletop.

00:47:35

Speaker 2: However, bones and leftovers were on no account to be thrown on the floor in Erasmus book,

00:47:42

Speaker 2: even though the dogs would have appreciated them,

00:47:45

Speaker 2: they were to be placed neatly at the side of one's stretcher or discarded in a dish called a void er

00:47:52

Speaker 2: Special dishes for leftovers have officially returned to european dining room tables in very recent years. The french call them

00:48:01

Speaker 2: possible do tabla table garbage containers.

00:48:05

Speaker 2: They are useful nowadays because they obviate some of the table clearing

00:48:10

Speaker 2: the disgust value of leftovers standing on the table is apparently reduced by carefully relegating them to their own particular consciously provided dish.

00:48:20

Speaker 1: All right, lizzie post Before we talk about double dipping three cheers for in your Erasmus Day,

00:48:27

Speaker 2: we

00:48:27

Speaker 1: often talk about in Emily's Day and Margaret visser just went over the

00:48:31

Speaker 2: top.

00:48:33

Speaker 2: Well, it was so awesome to hear, I love, I I stumbled upon this little section. It was kind of funny, but I loved, as I read along so, so many things that felt so incredibly familiar to the etiquette that you and I have been writing about and especially what we've just put into the 20th edition and then you're right this drop of

00:48:52

Speaker 2: of and wait even history back in her as mrs day, he's writing about this. And I was like, oh my goodness, it just it was really fun to sort of etiquette geek out on the much greater history of table manners and where they come from and what's considered appropriate and the different dishes that emerged in order to take care of the particular

00:49:18

Speaker 2: niceties and growth

00:49:21

Speaker 1: test

00:49:21

Speaker 2: witnesses of the day. You know what I mean? And like what's considered good and bad, like it's okay to just take that hunk of gristle and toss it behind you, but do not put it on the table. You know,

00:49:33

Speaker 1: it makes sense to me in a certain context.

00:49:37

Speaker 2: Also,

00:49:38

Speaker 1: my little ears perked up when Margaret visser started talking about the return of the discard bowl to the table.

00:49:44

Speaker 1: And I know it's one of your personal favorites are definitely something that you like to remind people, encourage people to include because it makes eating certain foods so much easier.

00:49:54

Speaker 2: Oh, dan! You tease me. I am remembering that moment of editing during our last editing session where I think you would have to read the dining etiquette chapter twice and and therefore you were like,

00:50:07

Speaker 2: we talked about this discard bowl for fish and shellfish. So we talked about everywhere. We gotta cut this, we cross reference it cut and in in actuality there weren't that many reference of it, but I remember going back through the chapter and counting them in order to either justify keeping or find a way to get rid of them. It's

00:50:27

Speaker 1: officially an Emily post institute inside joke

00:50:29

Speaker 2: now,

00:50:32

Speaker 2: but it's true. I like hearing about the history of them going in and out of fashion. You know, whether those bones are pushed to the side of your plate or or whether they actually have their very own containers. Same with shells and shellfish, things like that. Um, but it's it's fun to dip back in and hear how in other eras we interpreted the idea of grossness and how etiquette is often the solution to dealing with that at the table.

00:50:58

Speaker 1: Well, consider me a convert. I'm in favor of the discard bowl.

00:51:03

Speaker 2: Well, thanks for letting me explore this little section of with you all.

00:51:08

Speaker 1: Like everyone else. She thinks that her etiquette is perhaps not perfect, but good enough so that there are no glaring errors.

00:51:15

Speaker 1: She is proud of her table arrangement and thinks she deserves a word of congratulation.

00:51:22

Speaker 2: We like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world and that can come in so many forms. And today we have an etiquette salute from beth

00:51:33

Speaker 1: greetings lizzie and dan

00:51:35

Speaker 1: life at my home became unexpectedly complicated over the weekend when we did a home covid test on my four year old and found he was positive about two hours before our makeup family christmas celebration with my husband's family.

00:51:48

Speaker 1: Since yesterday we've split the house in half between my husband with sun on one side and me with our 16 month old baby on the other, attempting to isolate to keep baby healthy.

00:51:59

Speaker 1: Well last night also brought the first big snow this season. Almost two ft not unheard of for northeast Ohio, but definitely a lot.

00:52:09

Speaker 1: While the baby was napping this afternoon I went out to start shoveling the driveway. Our neighbor was doing the same across the street with his snowblower and when he finished with his driveway came over and did the rest of ours

00:52:22

Speaker 1: when thanked, he said the previous owner of our house had done the same for him. So my etiquette salute goes out to steve and Willoughby Ohio for a kind and neighborly gesture that made a really rough week. A little better cheers Beth

00:52:35

Speaker 2: I'm going to read the PS PS dan as a parent who is very much in the baby stage of life. I was so excited to hear about your upcoming new edition, sending best wishes to puja for a smooth delivery and wishing you a wonderful paternity leave with your family. That is so sweet.

00:52:53

Speaker 1: Well, Beth thank you so much and I,

00:52:55

Speaker 1: having gone through various different stages of like

00:52:59

Speaker 1: half quarantining homes and knowing people who've gone through exactly what you're going through right now by my heart goes out and I just so appreciate your good spirit and you're finding the goodness in it. And I'm gonna add a salute to your salute. I love that your neighbor helped you out and I love that the person who owned the house before you started it all in motion and

00:53:20

Speaker 1: um was also a really good neighbor and I just know that that's going to continue to be passed down and I'm sure the neighborhood is really grateful to have you there as well.

00:53:30

Speaker 2: Beth thank you so much for your salute.

00:53:34

Speaker 1: Mm hmm

00:53:36

Speaker 1: And thank you for listening.

00:53:38

Speaker 2: Thank you to everyone who sent us something and to everyone who supports us on Patreon.

00:53:43

Speaker 1: Please connect with us and share the show with friends, family and coworkers. However you like to share podcasts, you

00:53:49

Speaker 2: can send us questions feedback and your salutes by email to awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com by phone. You can leave us a message or text at eight

00:53:57

Speaker 1: 028

00:53:58

Speaker 2: 58 K. I. N. D. That's 8028585463

00:54:03

Speaker 2: on twitter. We are at Emily post on instagram we are at Emily Post institute and on facebook for awesome etiquette and the Emily Post Institute,

00:54:12

Speaker 1: please consider becoming a sustaining member. You can find out more about this by visiting patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette.

00:54:19

Speaker 1: You can also subscribe to the ads version of our show on Spotify or your favorite podcast app, and please consider leaving us a review that helps our show ranking, which helps more people find awesome etiquette.

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Speaker 1: Our

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Speaker 2: show is edited by Kris Albertine, an assistant produced by Bridget Dowd. Thanks chris.