Episode 392 - You Look Different
In this episode of Awesome Etiquette
Welcome to Awesome Etiquette, where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. On today’s show we take your questions on tipping the dog park staff, addressing noisy neighbors, a followup question to our plant-based dinner discussion, and addressing a sudden change in someone’s appearance. For Awesome Etiquette Sustaining members our question is about making etiquette around attire more gender inclusive. Plus your most excellent feedback, etiquette salute and a postscript.
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Speaker 1: maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social courtesy. That's old fashioned
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Speaker 1: watch act as host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person, real friendliness.
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Speaker 1: Hello
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Speaker 2: and welcome to awesome etiquette
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Speaker 1: where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. On
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Speaker 2: today's show, we take your questions on cutting food with a fort, a family member who is always trying to feed
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Speaker 1: you, not
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Speaker 2: wanting to participate in the wedding bouquet toss
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Speaker 2: And responding to invitations to gatherings that provide no information about COVID-19 safety
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Speaker 1: measures for awesome etiquette sustaining members. Our question of the week is about carefully choosing your friends on social media
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Speaker 2: plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a postscript segment where we compare elements of etiquette from the 1922 edition, the first edition of etiquette to our newest edition the 20th.
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Speaker 1: All that's coming up
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Speaker 2: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Snowy Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute. I'm lizzie Post
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Speaker 1: and I'm dan post Senning
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Speaker 2: and I am in love with the gilded age, new episode series. I know series on on HBO called the Gilded age and it is dan so deliciously fun. I've been dying to tell you about it because
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Speaker 2: it takes place in Emily's era, granted it takes place in Emily's era when she would have been about 10 years old, nine years old. So I think 18 82 is when it starts and it's a Julian fellows. The same person who did Downton Abbey um set in new york city.
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Speaker 2: We've even heard of the famed and seeing the character Mrs Astor who Emily makes some references to throughout her lifetime.
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Speaker 1: So
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Speaker 2: it's really cool. I don't think we're going to get any mentions of like the post family or the Price family who would be more likely that the prices might come up because Emily's father was such a famous architect back then. But it is just, it is delicious to kind of focus so much on Emily Post and then see a tv show that is kind of in her world and it's new york and it's high society and in so many ways, even though it's before the time she actually wrote, cause she wrote her first etiquette book in 1922
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Speaker 2: You're seeing so many of the traditions that Emily did allow to carry through. And there's even some characters who questioned some of those traditions that by the time 1922 comes around and Emily's writing her big book, you can see how she ends up with both like the history and the tradition from the gilded age,
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Speaker 2: but has to marry them with contemporary norms. And you hear it when Emily talks about like a traditional invitation for something versus when she talks about how kids these days do something, you know, I'm
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Speaker 1: clutching my pearls over here, just,
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Speaker 2: but it was delightfully fun. I've seen the 1st and 2nd episodes and I don't know how it will pan out in terms of actual plot and
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Speaker 2: and the goodness of of a show in that, in that kind of way. But I watched the first episode just to get the the storyline, watched the first episode again immediately after two, just etiquette geek out on it.
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Speaker 1: That is a hot tip lizzie
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Speaker 2: boost. Um so I'm the kind of person who I signed into my HBO only when there's a show I really want to watch and this was one where I was like, really excited for it and it came out and
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Speaker 2: definitely, definitely enjoying just the reality of Emily. Well, I guess the fantasy of Emily's World back then.
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Speaker 1: Well, a fantasy to us, but a reality for her. And
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Speaker 1: really encouraging to hear that the Downton Abbey creator producer team is
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Speaker 1: also working in makes me that much more interested for
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Speaker 2: sure. If any of you are out there having seen the episodes, please please please weigh in, send us some feedback. Send us some thoughts.
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Speaker 2: Part of me wants to like start a little like watch party or something like that because I really, I really was jazzed on it and it is very fun to be back in the world of a Julian fellows production. So, so that's really cool. But that was my like etiquette
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Speaker 2: geek out on pop culture.
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Speaker 1: I'm smiling and laughing and it's a genuine smile and I appreciate your distinction
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Speaker 1: around the well I don't know exactly how well the characters are fleshed out or how the story will develop at this point, but it really is the setting and the whole staging of the show that is drawing you in. And
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Speaker 1: I've got to say there are very few shows or movies that I can think of that really paint a vivid picture of that particular world.
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Speaker 1: The gilded age was was called gilded on the surface was incredibly rich, but maybe it was also a little shallow in some ways. I mean it was gilded, it wasn't substantively awesome, no,
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Speaker 2: most definitely.
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Speaker 2: But
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Speaker 1: I think that makes it less likely to be sort of a subject of study for a modern eye or contemporary. I'm thinking of
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Speaker 1: um
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Speaker 1: that unusual martin Scorsese film, the age of innocence
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Speaker 2: that
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Speaker 1: falls outside of his usual subject matter and sort of approach to filmmaking, but it's just an incredible picture of that particular world, the vander laden china or
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Speaker 2: silver
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Speaker 1: and then the protocols of that world. But
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Speaker 1: it's so nice to hear about another example because frankly, I need to update the impressions that that movie created.
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Speaker 2: I mean, I definitely laugh at the stuff where they're talking about, you know, um new rich versus old rich, new money versus old money, that kind of thing, and that's a big thing and that's a big kind of storyline throughout it.
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Speaker 2: I personally cringe whenever I, you know, here, the single adult woman referred to as spinster but I know it's from the era but there's just
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Speaker 2: there's there's so many delicious things going on and I'll be really curious to see how it pans out over the whole season, if it, if it holds muster or if it's really just a place for, you know, e etiquette experts to get etiquette authors to geek out on for a little bit. We'll
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Speaker 1: give me a week or two to catch up but feel free to ask me about my impressions and coming intros.
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Speaker 2: Okay I will I will I will and please audience do send us your thoughts if any of you are checking out the show or if you know of other shows that might have taken place during the gilded age or movies that took place during it because I would, first of all I you know, watching so much stuff, it's january in Vermont, second year, third year of a pandemic
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Speaker 2: but I definitely would love recommendations if you guys know of other stuff that's in this category.
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Speaker 2: Okay, so that's like, you know, that's the the tv update. Do you think that maybe we should immediately get into answering some questions today
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Speaker 1: cousin? I think that's a great idea, let's do it
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Speaker 2: awesome etiquette is here to answer
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Speaker 1: your questions, you can email them to
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Speaker 2: awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com, leave a voicemail or text at 802858 K. I. N. D. That's 802858
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Speaker 1: 546
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Speaker 2: three. Or you can reach us on
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Speaker 1: social media on twitter.
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Speaker 2: We're at Emily post inst that's I. N. S. T.
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Speaker 2: On instagram. We are at Emily Post institute
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Speaker 2: and on facebook were awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with any social media posts so that we
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Speaker 1: know you want your question on the show.
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Speaker 1: Mhm.
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Speaker 1: Our first question this week is about a fork faux pas
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Speaker 1: dear posts.
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Speaker 1: I was taught to use both a knife and fork when eating. Also that one could use the edge of the fork to cut one's food in certain instances where the food itself was soft, for instance, with a fileted fish or a piece of pie.
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Speaker 1: My in laws use their fork for all manner of cutting while their knife sits unused at the side or rests across the top of the plate.
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Speaker 2: Not just gentle
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Speaker 1: cutting, but even when they must use the edge of a fork in a seesaw motion several times to sever the piece of food
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Speaker 1: personally, I find this to be very impolite, but I can't seem to find anything definitive on the matter.
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Speaker 1: Mind you, they are very particular about table manners and such concepts as whether the napkin is set under the fork.
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Speaker 1: They say never appropriate verse to the side, which I know is the formal approach and whether the napkin on your lap should extend across both legs or just one.
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Speaker 1: Yet. The use of a fork as a knife is perfectly acceptable.
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Speaker 1: I appreciate your insight here. Andrew,
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Speaker 2: oh Andrew the phrase to each their own. Comes to mind with this also best laid plans, like things things like that. You can lead a horse to water. What I find very interesting about this particular question is that
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Speaker 2: there's
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Speaker 2: clear knowledge of something detailed, like the difference between where you place a napkin
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Speaker 2: and at the same time there is this completely unused knife at these folks settings that just seems so counter to me, it's like this would seem like the the closed the door after you enter it kind of advice.
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Speaker 2: Whereas the napkin might be like a very detailed piece of
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Speaker 2: hosting advice, you know, that that you might or might not do. And it just really strikes me that there's the focus on the napkin and the understanding of never putting it under the fork, which would mean you'd have to remove the fork before you're going to use the fork to then get the napkin.
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Speaker 2: And that's one
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Speaker 1: of the reasons why you
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Speaker 2: here. Yeah. Like, oh my gosh! So much work
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Speaker 2: gilded age stuff. But it really fascinates me that it seems like they have a really comprehensive view of certain pieces of dining etiquette and then they're making exceptions for themselves with this fork as a, as a knife thing.
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Speaker 2: I'm not sure if you're looking for us to give you advice on how to handle the fact that you feel watching them die in this way as impolite. The use of that fork as impolite
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Speaker 2: or whether you're just looking for commentary on it. But it is, I would say put it this way, it's not what we teach in terms of how to use the fork. Um We're very much so in the same vein as you Andrew where
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Speaker 2: if you had a very soft lasagna or maybe a scalloped potato dish or as you mentioned, a filet of fish or a
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Speaker 1: what was the other one that
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Speaker 2: was mentioned pie? Yeah, exactly cake. These are all things that you could easily use the side of the fork to cut from. But the using the fork in a sawing motion when there is a knife there. I'll admit that one baffles me
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Speaker 1: me to lizzie post.
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Speaker 2: I'm curious to hear what my cousins thoughts are on the napkin because dan you like wrote the section in our book on the napkin. Really. What there were details in that
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Speaker 1: I love talking about napkins
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Speaker 2: you do? Well, it's, it's, it's,
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Speaker 1: it's the first utensil.
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Speaker 1: You sit down at the table. What's the first thing in your place setting that you interact with, that you engage with, that you're going to use throughout the meal maybe. And then
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Speaker 2: probably it's going to be the last
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Speaker 1: thing you touch at the table.
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Speaker 2: That would be the napkin dan. It
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Speaker 1: would indeed. And you're talking to the person who started teaching dining etiquette out of a a teaching deck that I inherited
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Speaker 1: that said nothing about the napkin. It was my first great contribution to the Emily post table manners program was some napkins specific advice and a slide for napkin use.
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Speaker 2: I love that.
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Speaker 1: One of the things that we talked about there is a triangle fold or a rectangle fold, it's really up to you. It doesn't matter
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Speaker 1: when you unfold your linen napkin and place it in your lap. And usually those are big enough that they quite comfortably cover your lap, drape across both legs, which is nice because it gives you coverage and protects your clothing.
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Speaker 1: But there's a point of casual etiquette refinement that I also like to point out, which is that if you get a paper napkin, there's no point in trying to uncover,
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Speaker 1: fold it or get it down to single sheets that you then refold, that you can take a paper towel, fold it in half or a napkin as it's handed to you a paper napkin and just place it in your lap. And oftentimes that involves resting it on one leg or the other.
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Speaker 2: It's not big enough to fit across two right?
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Speaker 1: There are a lot of instances where I find myself with a napkin sort of balanced or placed on one thigh or the other. And
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Speaker 1: I think because I'm right hand dominant tends to be on my right side, but I could, there's no particular etiquette around that, but that was the one thing I thought about that might create an impression that it goes on one leg or the other. Or there might be instances where it seems a little
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Speaker 1: strange to try to get it to cover your whole lap or to have it not. So that that was the little dividing line that I came up with there in my mind.
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Speaker 2: But for the most part do you think napkin on both? Both? If it fits?
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Speaker 1: I think so, a linen napkin big enough just covers broadly across your lap. And I mean if you've got your legs crossed
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Speaker 1: delicately at the ankles or however you cross your legs, maybe one leg is a little higher than the other. And it sort of feels like that, that's where it's placed.
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Speaker 1: But
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Speaker 1: no, I don't think of that as a big point of distinction.
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Speaker 1: I had another thought though, this was the only thing I could think of for why you might avoid using the knife, particularly if you were particular about your table manners.
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Speaker 2: And I'm
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Speaker 1: wondering if this family has internalized the idea that you minimize the use of the knife
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Speaker 1: and as a as a point of refining
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Speaker 2: was going to say why? Well and
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Speaker 1: and it's a very traditional table manner. It comes from way back when when your knife might double as a weapon might be a tool that you carry with you and also use at the table.
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Speaker 1: So as the
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Speaker 1: the knife became more and more of a strictly dining utensil as it became part of a set of table ware and not a tool that you brought to the table with you.
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Speaker 1: There was this little refinement that the less you handled your knife at the table, the more refined your manner. So if you weren't really using it to cut your food, the idea was that you would set it down on the top of your plate and it made you appear less aggressive. Or
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Speaker 2: I would be so curious as to like the dates, like the history of when that shift was occurring.
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Speaker 2: Only because in my mind, another section that we heavily wrote and heavily edited the book was the continental verse american dining and the american is the one where you would set the knife down. Whereas the continental, you often just keep that that knife in the hand. Am I correct?
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Speaker 1: You do? Although
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Speaker 2: it's something I still mentioned today
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Speaker 1: that if you're not using your knife to cut the idea is that you set it down, that you don't leave it in your hand and you don't generally have utensils in your hands when you're not using them. But
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Speaker 1: the idea that you would just hold your fork while you were eating and talking. It's a real subtlety to table manners and I would never try to
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Speaker 1: amplify that subtlety to the point where I'm avoiding using my
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Speaker 2: knife and
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Speaker 1: I certainly wouldn't do it to the point where it caused me to do something that felt or looked awkward with one of my other utensils.
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Speaker 2: So like that sawing motion of the fork that Andrew mentions.
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Speaker 1: I mean, in terms of a sort of a coherence to our table manners and practicality really being what drives them.
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Speaker 1: I'm so with you that the second you're really efforting that fork cut, that's what the knife is. Therefore, if you've got one may as well pick it up and use
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Speaker 2: it.
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Speaker 2: I get very intrigued by the idea that these folks are setting a table with a knife. It's not just that they don't set the knife out at all, Don't give one to people, but that they they set the knife out, but they themselves don't touch it at all.
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Speaker 2: I find that piece of it interesting
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Speaker 1: and I can certainly imagine and even sympathize with Andrew. I'm picturing sitting at this table as a bit of a cultural anthropologist watching this group that clearly are invested in certain particulars of table manners and
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Speaker 1: may be wondering why this behavior, I'm not going to call it strange, but this behavior that that strikes him as a little bit different is part of the mix here when you wouldn't expect it to be.
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Speaker 1: It's interesting to me how that jumps out a little bit as far as how I would approach talking about it with the family, I'm a little bit with you that if it's not feeling problematic, if it's not bothersome, I would put it in that category of boy, I love watching how people do things. I'm not gonna play the role of corrector
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Speaker 2: back to that, to each their own kind of thing. Yeah, exactly.
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Speaker 1: Or or or or just if if
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Speaker 1: it ever came up, if it was being discussed, I might,
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Speaker 1: as we often say on the show, use this question as a jumping off point or maybe even just the existence of a podcast about etiquette that you like to listen to as a jumping off
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Speaker 2: Point. I was thinking 20th edition, 20th edition as a as a holiday or birthday present for these folks. Could be an interesting and interesting thing to toss into the mix
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Speaker 2: well and
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Speaker 1: and you know me, I'm always a conflict avoidant. I would proceed with a question and because it's my question, I would probably proceed with it of enquiring if there's something about not using the knife, that is the point of refinement that there
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Speaker 1: looking to honor or or embody it with this practice of fork cutting
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Speaker 2: Andrew. Thank you very much for this slightly perplexing question I would say.
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Speaker 2: But we are hoping that our thoughts on the matter help you to decide what to do and how to interact with your relatives when you do get the chance to dine together and please keep us updated. We'll be curious if there's a historical aspect that's behind this,
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Speaker 1: You're worried about not doing the right thing. Your table manners. Now you're talking like mom and dad. Look, you may not care much about table manners now,
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Speaker 1: but when you grow up to be me then you'll care.
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Speaker 2: This question is titled Need to Feed
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Speaker 2: Hi Liz and dan dan congratulations on your new baby on the way.
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Speaker 1: I
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Speaker 2: know, I know, I know. I have a question about my mom and her quote unquote need to feed.
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Speaker 2: I love my mom more than anything and I would love some polite sample scripts that do not hurt her feelings.
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Speaker 2: My mom is amazing. She's incredibly kind, thoughtful and full of the best kind of hospitality.
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Speaker 2: These traits equal what I call her need to feed.
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Speaker 2: If you were to stop by my mom's house, she would immediately lay out sweets for you to munch on and start putting together a grilled cheese and perhaps heat up some leftovers for you if it was around lunch or suppertime, she somehow can change her plans to feed her immediate family to accommodate any number of unexpected guests.
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Speaker 2: Her need to feed doesn't depend on the time of day nor the type of visitor anyone that enters her home is immediately presented with all the food they could ever dream of.
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Speaker 2: I love her spirit of generosity and recognize she shows her love through food. I live next door and often stop by once or twice a day to visit.
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Speaker 2: However, my husband and I are very conscious about food waste as we live in the country. We put a lot of planning into what we're going to eat and when and then only by that amount of food when we do our weekly grocery shopping in town.
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Speaker 2: We're also trying to watch what we eat by limiting snacks and treats. Here's my problem. My mom will call me at noon two or three times a week to say she has lunch ready for me. I almost always turn her down. Either I've already started preparing lunch or have planned what I'm eating throughout the week and do not want to waste what I have prepared.
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Speaker 2: You can hear the disappointment in her voice when I try to explain that I already have groceries and need more of a heads up if she wants to have me over as I'm cooking as well.
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Speaker 2: Also,
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Speaker 2: any time we stopped by, I'd appreciate it if she didn't offer us sweets and snacks. If you say no the first time she interprets it as she needs to find another option as we don't like the first thing she presented. Sometimes it's easier to just eat what she puts out instead of denying her four or five times.
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Speaker 2: Do you have any tips on how I can acknowledge her generosity while politely redirecting her attempts to feed me. Thanks daughter of need to feed like
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Speaker 1: daughter of need to feed. Thank you so much for this question. I want to answer this question as son in law of need to feed
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Speaker 2: because
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Speaker 1: my mother in law, you could be, this could be a description of my mother in law. She is incredible. And I start thinking about the food before I start thinking about her visits or visiting her
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Speaker 1: and part of my thinking is about planning and how much I'm going to eat before I arrive because I know when I walk through the door, they're gonna be things waiting for me. And oftentimes
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Speaker 1: even so well thought out that there are the things that I mentioned, I liked the most the last time I was there. So there's even a bit of these were really prepared for you or with you in mind.
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Speaker 1: So that Mcdonald's stop an hour before you arrived, just as ill advised and
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Speaker 2: on
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Speaker 1: several levels, both socially and I actually want to save room for the yummy food that's waiting.
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Speaker 1: And I've learned that. And
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Speaker 1: as I was reading your question, I was thinking to myself how
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Speaker 1: how natural this role is for people, how much of a part of caregiving it can be to want to prepare food and offer food to people and feed people really, really um nourish them in in so many ways, whether it's with your care or with the actual food itself and
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Speaker 1: there is so much happening there, both in terms of what's being communicated
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Speaker 1: as well as and along with the actual food that you're eating or being given and
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Speaker 1: I have a three part strategy here and I want
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Speaker 2: to like this, what have you got?
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Speaker 1: I want to give it to you in sort of some, some quick parts that I want to hear what my cousin lizzie has to think about this plan.
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Speaker 2: Alright, what you got? My
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Speaker 1: one thought is that basic dictates of etiquette say that um you don't have to eat anything you don't want to
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Speaker 1: and it's okay to decline, but you always want to thank
00:22:32
Speaker 1: you. Always wanna acknowledge and appreciate the effort and the thought that someone put in and you want to keep your nose firm and clear and
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Speaker 1: I think those two things compare really nicely with each other when your decline is firm and clear. You can follow it up with a thank you so much, I really appreciate it.
00:22:51
Speaker 1: That's also clear and
00:22:53
Speaker 1: can be a nice little code. I can put a period on that sentence or that interaction in a way that concludes it or gives an indication that that it's not something that you need to continue to talk about
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Speaker 2: dan. I want to jump in here and just say, I really like the fact that you're not making the thank you and the declining mutually exclusive,
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Speaker 2: that they can work together. I think a lot of people feel this moment of, I don't want to say thank you for something I'm not thankful for.
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Speaker 2: And I think what you are thankful for in this case, and and tell me if I've got this kind of angle on it wrong or if this is what you're thinking, but you're thanking someone for, for choosing to be hospitable, even if it's not the way that that you,
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Speaker 2: that you might find helpful right now, for instance, the sweets when you're trying to stay away from sweets, but you're looking past the exact moment of sweets being presented to you to the idea that my mom is caring. This is how my mom shows love. This is how she shows hospitality.
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Speaker 2: I want to thank her for presenting that to me, but be really clear that sweets are really not something I want to be presented with right now or that I'm going to engage with if I'm presented with them, right?
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Speaker 1: Absolutely. And I think that's part of the function of the clarity of the know that it's not uh oh, let
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Speaker 2: me see what you got or
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Speaker 1: oh, you know, I'm not sure. But
00:24:12
Speaker 1: no, I'm like yours, I'm not eating sweets right now during the day or I just had lunch or I'm really gonna wait till dinner, I'm just not hungry. You can offer an explanation if you want, particularly, it's going to be useful. Sometimes that explanation goes a long way, it just establishes that the good reason behind your No,
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Speaker 1: and it also sets you up for then turning and saying thank you so much for the offer. I really appreciate it. That's tactic one. No, but thank
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Speaker 2: you
00:24:40
Speaker 1: tactic to is take what you like that. It's ok to be selective when someone's really casting about and they're looking to
00:24:49
Speaker 1: put a snack in front of you that you might enjoy until later. It's okay to choose one of the options or even give a little direction. And that's one of the things that's worked really well for me.
00:24:59
Speaker 2: Okay.
00:25:00
Speaker 1: Oh I've made this, I made this, I made this. Oh, do
00:25:02
Speaker 2: you have any of that? Such and
00:25:03
Speaker 1: such? Because that's what I really want and
00:25:06
Speaker 2: and you know, there is some, it's right here. I brought some of that
00:25:09
Speaker 1: also. It's ready for you and
00:25:11
Speaker 2: you're thinking of those spiced nuts, aren't you? That's that's, that's like one of the favorites that comes out of the alka alka brings.
00:25:17
Speaker 1: Its eluding me right now. But there are these sweet
00:25:21
Speaker 1: um they're like sweet cheese balls, their way
00:25:25
Speaker 2: balls
00:25:26
Speaker 1: and they're in sugar water and I can eat them by the jar. And
00:25:30
Speaker 1: um a couple of visits ago I
00:25:33
Speaker 1: identified and acknowledged that of all the things offered particularly suites those were some of my favorite and guess what? They come every time. Nice big
00:25:43
Speaker 2: there in the car on the way up there. So
00:25:45
Speaker 1: take what you like find a little area where she can lean into that,
00:25:53
Speaker 1: that type of care for you and you can feel good about accepting it and maybe you can really pare it down, you know mama, the snack that you can offer me when you come by that I will almost always say yes to or I'll decline less often or whatever it is is such and such
00:26:07
Speaker 2: an apple or some carrots or whatever, you know, something like a little vegetable thing or something. Yeah. Yeah,
00:26:13
Speaker 2: I really like that idea of focusing on the ways and the places that you can engage
00:26:18
Speaker 2: because that that helps balance this relationship and also keeps it from only being about one person mitigating someone else's behavior, which I think is a hard thing to do when you're in a host guest and mother daughter relationship.
00:26:34
Speaker 1: Yeah. And part of this three part approaches. I'm also not taking the approach of, let's talk to mom about not doing this so much. I'm accepting in some ways that this is the kind of role that that someone
00:26:49
Speaker 1: plays and really likes playing and it's part of who they are and
00:26:53
Speaker 2: their persona. Yeah.
00:26:54
Speaker 1: Not something that is going to be easy to shut off. It's more something that you want to figure out a good relationship to. It probably is the most effective way to both enjoy this particular kind of care and and also not
00:27:08
Speaker 1: not confront someone with changing something that's really fundamental to who they are.
00:27:13
Speaker 2: So what have you got as your third, your third tip because I think these are just so good dan.
00:27:18
Speaker 1: My third tip has to do with that thought about an intentional diet, being aware of and concerned about food waste and the way you plan meals weekly, monthly, however you do that, it's um
00:27:31
Speaker 1: something I also sympathize with him being in the process of doing it with my, my wife right now as we plan for a much busier household were really systematize ng a lot of our processes as we're nesting and getting ready
00:27:44
Speaker 1: and, and meal plans, planning our food and our shopping is part of that and I can appreciate how organized that can be and how good that can feel to have that well organized.
00:27:53
Speaker 1: I think that you want to rope your mom in on that plan as much as possible. And I'm thinking in particular about the lunch offers that come a couple of times a week and can you build mom into that weekly plan? Can you count on one lunch or two lunches
00:28:10
Speaker 1: and have a discussion about it ahead of time? So it fits in with your larger strategies about how you eat and how you have a responsible relationship with food that you buy and that you try not to waste
00:28:22
Speaker 1: and if you can talk to her about that, if this is something she loves, if that's something you can connect over. Um it might be a way to make your mother really happy, honor, the type of approach that you want to take and also get some yummy prepared meals along the way
00:28:38
Speaker 2: dan. I absolutely love your 123 on this. I think that it is an a plus answer that
00:28:45
Speaker 2: that doesn't involve the big sit down conversation and I'm so excited to hear and and answer that kind of tries to identify both needs of both parties and think thank and decline, take what you like or identify things that they could aim for. That would be good for you to, to always say yes to
00:29:05
Speaker 2: and I just love the idea of making the plan
00:29:09
Speaker 2: that that work this into all this wonderful planning that you're doing, work your mom into that somehow. I think that these are three really great strategies and daughter of need to feed. I am hopeful that you think these are three really great strategies that you can implement as well.
00:29:25
Speaker 2: I would love to hear an update about how this goes as you try to implement some of them in the future.
00:29:30
Speaker 1: Good luck. There's something we all enjoy about staying for dinner. Have you ever thought why it's because eating with others, it's
00:29:42
Speaker 2: fun.
00:29:45
Speaker 1: People like to come together at mealtimes,
00:29:48
Speaker 1: enjoy each other's company while they're enjoying good food,
00:29:52
Speaker 1: but it's different with ralph.
00:29:55
Speaker 1: Yeah,
00:29:56
Speaker 2: our
00:29:57
Speaker 1: next question is about bouquet toss trouble.
00:30:00
Speaker 1: Uh
00:30:00
Speaker 2: huh
00:30:02
Speaker 1: Hi lizzie and dan, I just went to a friend's quite traditional wedding in south Georgia. She's a newer friend but a good friend
00:30:09
Speaker 1: and I didn't know how to tell her. I really don't want to participate in the bouquet toss. I'm 25 but unmarried women still aren't treated like full adults in this part of the world,
00:30:19
Speaker 1: participating in the bouquet toss. Makes me feel like a secondary citizen and like the rest of the married guests in the crowd are looking down on me as a child who hasn't made it.
00:30:29
Speaker 1: About half the guests had gone home. So my friends and I were saying goodbye to the bride when she said with panic in her tone. Wait, the bouquet toss is coming up, can you stay for that?
00:30:40
Speaker 1: My stomach dropped.
00:30:42
Speaker 1: One of my friends and I had planned to quietly step away so we wouldn't have to participate. But we were basically the only single women left so we felt obligated.
00:30:51
Speaker 1: I know it's not my wedding day,
00:30:53
Speaker 1: but I'm really tired of feeling like a secondary citizen among my married friends and acquaintances.
00:30:59
Speaker 2: How do I navigate
00:31:00
Speaker 1: this? On one hand, it's not my special day and I want to support a friend without making a scene.
00:31:06
Speaker 1: On the other hand, participating in this tradition really violates my personal sense of self,
00:31:12
Speaker 1: can I kindly tell the bride I will be happy to watch but not participate
00:31:16
Speaker 1: if the bride or another guest starts insisting and starts causing a scene until I go to the front like they have done at other weddings I've been to
00:31:24
Speaker 1: do, I have to be the one to yield.
00:31:26
Speaker 1: How much do I have to set aside my core values and sense of self to avoid making a scene.
00:31:33
Speaker 1: Thanks so much. I have no idea how to handle this sincerely. My singleness is not a character
00:31:39
Speaker 2: tree, I love that sign off and I totally agree with it. This is a tough one. This is again in that category of
00:31:47
Speaker 2: sort of push and pull. It feels like either you're acquiescing to someone else's desires that don't make you feel good or you're making someone else, potentially not feel good in some of these circumstances, not all of them for sure because you're sticking up for your own feelings and that's a very tricky place to be.
00:32:05
Speaker 2: I will say that anecdotally in my own life. I tend to often acquiesce when it's not my thing, so it's not my day, it's not my party, it's it's not my event is more likely that if one pass of no, no, no, I'm a I'm a viewer not to participate er in this particular wedding event didn't get me there.
00:32:28
Speaker 2: I will often begrudgingly, then you know, go do the thing that they're hoping for you to do in this particular instance, dan,
00:32:36
Speaker 2: It sounds like
00:32:38
Speaker 2: the bride was trying to have a moment. That in her mind is a very classic wedding moment that she didn't want to miss
00:32:45
Speaker 2: and these were the last two people out. And just so you know, my advice until we read that particular section of this question was going to be, oh you just, you sneak
00:32:55
Speaker 1: out, you sneak
00:32:56
Speaker 2: out, like you make yourself so unavailable for this moment and then you resurface and say your goodbyes right, Like you just sneak out, it's okay.
00:33:04
Speaker 2: Um but you got you got,
00:33:06
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say caught but trapped maybe in the middle of your exit, caught up, caught up in the middle of your exit. And I think that that particular moment was I think it would have been,
00:33:18
Speaker 2: I don't want to say, right because I don't I don't wanna say that you have to step on your own toes in this case. But I think that given that there were only a couple of people who would participate in this and the bride seemed to really want to do it,
00:33:32
Speaker 2: that you you do it and you do it for her and you let it be for her and you you leave it all there. But I think that's a hard thing to ask someone to do every single time. And it's why I think avoiding the moment is a good way to go.
00:33:45
Speaker 2: I think saying something directly, if someone tries to push you to participate in the moment and remember we're often at weddings dealing with people who have been drinking and k toss comes at the end
00:33:56
Speaker 2: and that can that can just mean people are more willing to push you
00:33:59
Speaker 2: as opposed to read your signals. I've had that happen at a number of weddings and I think it's just a reality that you're dealing with. Um but I think making yourself scarce is the best thing you can do during that particular moment of the wedding, dan. Do I sound like I'm giving advice to just like squeak off
00:34:20
Speaker 2: or
00:34:20
Speaker 1: do you think
00:34:21
Speaker 2: this is reasonable given the circumstances?
00:34:24
Speaker 1: It's so tough because I I like you, I really appreciate where this question is coming from and that the idea that,
00:34:33
Speaker 1: well, anyone who's single would be waiting would want to catch the bouquet indicating that they will be the next to be married is something that
00:34:42
Speaker 1: is a ritual that's
00:34:45
Speaker 1: not only not going to be appealing to everyone, but it's actually distasteful to many people is something that they don't want to participate in. And
00:34:53
Speaker 1: we say that respect is so important. It's fundamentally important when we talk about etiquette and so often the focus of that respect is about respecting others, but we try not to forget and we try to remember that respect for yourself is an equally important part of good etiquette that it's how you can feel good enough to participate well and
00:35:14
Speaker 1: without saying that I would want anyone to do anything that really violated their their sense of personal integrity and self worth.
00:35:21
Speaker 1: Like you as this
00:35:23
Speaker 1: particular scene plays out more and more
00:35:27
Speaker 1: that final situation of
00:35:30
Speaker 1: in a
00:35:31
Speaker 1: hurried moment, People begging you to participate really being invested in you doing it. They're not being a lot of other apparent options.
00:35:41
Speaker 1: I can understand saying, you know what at this stage, the scene that's going to result from this is a bigger deal and is more trouble than it's worth to me. And frankly, it might cause more harm than I would want to cause
00:35:54
Speaker 1: or we just leave someone feeling awkward and embarrassed in a way that I really wouldn't want to do that to them. I will, I will
00:36:01
Speaker 1: endure it and I will experience that awkwardness and embarrassment myself
00:36:06
Speaker 1: to avoid putting it on someone else. And I think that's that's a real test and I think it's an ultimate test of our, our etiquette
00:36:13
Speaker 1: and if it's too much, I wouldn't tell anyone they have to do it. But like you, my instinct would be sort of, as the factors continued to pile up and add up in that particular moment,
00:36:24
Speaker 1: I would, I would do my best not just to avoid making a scene, but to avoid putting someone else in a situation where they felt
00:36:32
Speaker 1: worse than I might by saying yes to the thing itself.
00:36:35
Speaker 2: It can be hard to weigh those out sometimes, dan, but I think you've done a really good job at describing what kind of tips the scale in one direction versus the other
00:36:44
Speaker 1: as is often the case. The only other thought that I have to add to this answer is that
00:36:50
Speaker 1: an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. And if you could ever find yourself in a place where you could sense these moments coming ahead of time. If there's a way as a bridesmaid you can mention
00:37:02
Speaker 1: to a bride when the stakes are low, preferably many days before the event is occurring.
00:37:09
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, like weeks before.
00:37:11
Speaker 1: That's a particular thing that while you understand, it's a big part of a lot of weddings that it's not something you're particularly interested in participating in, It sets you up much, much better to decline if you get asked day of by someone else and much less likely to be asked by the bride themselves.
00:37:28
Speaker 2: Absolutely. And I would just double that, that goes whether you're a bridesmaid or you're a guest um if that's a conversation you're able to to have with the bride, like we were saying a couple of weeks before the wedding, I think it would probably make it a lot easier in the moment, even if there's been lots of champagne that night or someone's really caught up in the day or
00:37:47
Speaker 2: that kind of a thing. Um as as dan said, an ounce of prevention uh for a pound of cure,
00:37:53
Speaker 1: I have one more idea
00:37:54
Speaker 2: what what, what's that, what's that?
00:37:56
Speaker 1: I was thinking about this while reading the question and I just remembered
00:38:00
Speaker 1: grab some guys who are unmarried and get them out on the floor to catch that bouquet with you would be another possibility um in a way that we might mix up this tradition a little
00:38:09
Speaker 2: bit. Yes, yes, yes and it is not unheard of. I have, I have definitely seen this, feel free to go for it.
00:38:17
Speaker 1: My singleness is not a character trait. Thank you so much for this question. It gives us a chance to look at a particular wedding tradition that might not be so positive for everyone who's asked to participate in it. You realize that it's the simple things,
00:38:29
Speaker 1: being friendly
00:38:31
Speaker 1: thinking of the other person and showing respect
00:38:34
Speaker 1: that make up everyday courtesy, real living courtesy has made the evening of pleasure
00:38:41
Speaker 1: and a
00:38:41
Speaker 2: success.
00:38:50
Speaker 2: This question is very dully titled Issues with an invite.
00:38:54
Speaker 2: Hello lizzie and dan, thank you for your wonderful podcasts and congratulations on all of the exciting upcoming events in your lives. I'm of course talking about Lizzy's dog training and dan's upcoming potty training. Oh, that is really funny.
00:39:08
Speaker 2: I had this question in december and didn't get a chance to submit before having to respond on my own.
00:39:14
Speaker 2: I think it's still an appropriate topic for upcoming invitations.
00:39:19
Speaker 2: In early december. I received a mailed, quote unquote neighborhood christmas party invitation from some neighbors who live around the block.
00:39:29
Speaker 2: A reply was requested by phone or text.
00:39:32
Speaker 2: I only know these neighbors by sight when they walk their dog past my house and have not spoken to them more than a quick hello.
00:39:39
Speaker 2: I was perplexed on how to respond. Since there was no mention of vaccination status masks, social distancing or anything related to our current pandemic.
00:39:48
Speaker 2: I would have liked to attend if I was assured that there were some safeguards in place but did not know how to ask without sounding contentious.
00:39:57
Speaker 2: I suspected since it wasn't mentioned that maybe they were not vaccinated.
00:40:02
Speaker 2: I actually searched the web for a good response, didn't even find one on Emily post and wound and wound up sending the following text.
00:40:12
Speaker 2: Hi stan and Sue. This is neighbor carol smith. Thanks so much for the party invitation. But john and I won't be able to attend. We aren't attending any gatherings this year. Have fun. Sue replied back thanking me for letting them know. I found out later from an intend e that there was no consideration to the pandemic at all during the party.
00:40:30
Speaker 2: She and her husband left after chatting for a few minutes with some other neighbors who they know had been vaccinated.
00:40:36
Speaker 2: Here's my final question,
00:40:38
Speaker 2: what is the proper response to an invitation like this from people who you don't really know. My first inclination was to ask directly about what they were doing to safeguard their guests but felt like that would be too confrontational and cause a neighborhood rift.
00:40:54
Speaker 2: I hope they got the gist of my concern from my texted response though, I suspect they don't really care.
00:41:01
Speaker 2: Since then, by the way, I have turned down invitations to dinner or girls night out with close friends and felt totally comfortable giving the reasons
00:41:10
Speaker 2: hope you have a wonderful recharge time off. Sherry,
00:41:14
Speaker 1: sherry. Thank you so much for the question and for the well wishes for that restful time away. I'm certainly looking forward to it. Although who knows how restful anything can be with a new baby in the house.
00:41:26
Speaker 1: I really thought that your answer here was pretty spot on. I thought it was very much in line with the kind of etiquette advice that I think lizzie and I would get behind on this show. I think that it was
00:41:40
Speaker 1: excellent that you replied to the invitation. First of all, it is so easy when you're invited to something and you're unsure and you're not going to go
00:41:49
Speaker 1: to just not reply at all. And that question mark is really the rudest thing you can do as a guest. So you get your etiquette kudos, your high marks for getting that R. S. V. P. Out and
00:41:59
Speaker 1: for doing it even though you're declining. And even though you might have felt a little bit awkward about the way that you were declining or what type of language you would use to do it. And that can often be the biggest hurdle for people. So
00:42:11
Speaker 1: first of all good work there. And
00:42:14
Speaker 1: the second sort of etiquette kudos that I want to offer you is one where you thought about the relationship and how well you knew the people involved.
00:42:23
Speaker 1: I think that the language that you ended up choosing to go with makes a lot of sense. And it's the
00:42:28
Speaker 1: the kind of language that I would probably lean into personally where
00:42:33
Speaker 1: you decline. Clearly you thank them genuinely for inviting you
00:42:37
Speaker 1: and you gave just a little bit of an explanation and it was an explanation that doesn't call out them either the way they presented the party or the choices they've made, but identified the reasons as being reasons that come from you and your approach to gatherings at this point.
00:42:53
Speaker 1: And
00:42:54
Speaker 1: I I think that there is a certain subtlety to what you did by mentioning that you're not going to any large gatherings this year. I think that you're locating that decision in time and around numbers of people in a way that after two plus years of operating in a pandemic environment,
00:43:13
Speaker 1: most people are going to pick up on what you're talking about the reasons for it and that those are your personal reasons. So I think that you've given them enough clues. You've laid out enough breadcrumbs that if they want to follow it back to the gingerbread house and think about
00:43:26
Speaker 1: the flip side of this advice which would be the advice I would give a host issuing this invitation,
00:43:32
Speaker 1: but they might consider
00:43:34
Speaker 1: some sort of acknowledgement of the pandemic environment and what their safety procedures protocols, assumptions are or aren't
00:43:42
Speaker 1: in a way that it gives guests more information for making decisions. But now I'm jumping over into host advice and I really wanted to stay focused on the guests because I I think you made some really good choices and I appreciated the way you
00:43:54
Speaker 1: mentioned that for more specific invitations from people that you know better that you were able to have the discussions about why which really falls in line with the advice that lizzie and I have been giving for a while now which is to treat questions about health and safety related concerns. The same way you would food allergy restrictions or or realities that's information that hosts and guests need to exchange so it's best done early and then as factual away as possible and in a way that doesn't put
00:44:25
Speaker 1: a lot of pressure on someone else to conform attend, do something they don't want to do or be unsafe.
00:44:34
Speaker 1: I think from a guest perspective you did a really good job here.
00:44:37
Speaker 2: I think so too. Especially because this is someone you don't entertain with a ton. I can I can see the desire to to not maybe do what we often advise which is that it is perfectly okay to ask people what their covid safety protocols are if they haven't mentioned anything
00:44:55
Speaker 2: and to ask that in a way that
00:44:58
Speaker 2: helps to remove judgment sometimes I think that can be more easily done over the phone. And I know that most of us lean into text message communications these days, but in the text message, I think where it could help is to say,
00:45:13
Speaker 2: you know, love, love the idea of coming to the party. Thank you so much for the invite. I'm being really cautious right now. And so I was wondering if you'd be willing to share what covid safety protocols or what you're expecting from guests in terms of safety protocols,
00:45:28
Speaker 2: You know, during this pandemic,
00:45:30
Speaker 2: I think that that could be a way that you can get there via a text message where you're not getting the chance to to use the tone in your voice to convey that you're just enquiring, you're just gathering information, but that's the type of tone that you would want it to have if you were going to go the route of asking.
00:45:47
Speaker 2: Um, and it sounds like you're really comfortable asking and double checking with folks that you're a bit more familiar with. But we, you know, like in this case we don't always get invitations from people who we know what their vaccination status is or what their protocols generally are even when we do. I know I've started asking my friends a little bit more just because it's been a while since I've checked in with people and I don't know who's feeling like, you know looser with it versus who's really kind of
00:46:13
Speaker 2: buttoning down those hatches and and being really, really cautious.
00:46:17
Speaker 2: So I think there is a way to ask the question even of someone who you don't know these statuses of
00:46:22
Speaker 1: lizzie post. Thank you so much for really clarifying that because I couldn't
00:46:27
Speaker 1: agree anymore if you did want to ask what those procedures were Absolutely a quick a quick question is so reasonable these days. And in that spirit of I'm just getting a little more information so I can give you a good answer. I think that's a really,
00:46:42
Speaker 1: it's a really important reminder that that's an option for like put
00:46:45
Speaker 2: it on you. I'm doing this. You know, just the same way Sherry did in in her actual text message that went to them. You know, we're not going to gatherings right now or big gatherings right now.
00:46:56
Speaker 2: Sherry, we think that you've actually got this down pretty pat, but we really appreciate you asking this question
00:47:03
Speaker 2: and we hope that there are easier invitations in the future.
00:47:07
Speaker 1: Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind that's 8028585463. You can also reach us on social media on twitter, we're at Emily Post institute
00:47:27
Speaker 1: on instagram, we are at Emily Post Institute
00:47:30
Speaker 1: and on facebook were awesome etiquette. Just remember use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the show.
00:47:40
Speaker 2: If you're enjoying awesome etiquette, please please consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette. You'll get an ads free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content plus you'll feel great knowing that you helped keep awesome etiquette on the air
00:47:57
Speaker 2: and to those of you who are already sustaining members. Thank you so much for your support.
00:48:02
Speaker 1: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer and the topics we cover today. We have feedback from Lubna on episode 385.
00:48:12
Speaker 2: Hi Lizzie and Dan. I had so many thoughts about the landlord question, I love your sample scripts. Another thought would be what if the neighbor said sure, I'd love to help. It's not something that I do for a job, but if you need, I can do it for $50 or whatever this one time.
00:48:33
Speaker 2: I'm sure in the future a handyman might be the best person for stuff like this.
00:48:38
Speaker 2: I know it's not as direct, but I think it conveys what the question Nascar feels about the situation
00:48:45
Speaker 2: also, any zoom calls happening
00:48:47
Speaker 1: soon.
00:48:48
Speaker 2: Love to
00:48:50
Speaker 1: love that. Thank you so much for the feedback and the question and yes, there will be some more zoom calls happening food. Keep your eyes on your Patreon messages for more info on that.
00:49:00
Speaker 1: Um I also I just love your suggestion. I love a sample script that replies, Yeah, I'd be happy to do it for 50 bucks, essentially offering to, for
00:49:09
Speaker 2: offering them
00:49:10
Speaker 1: that they would be paying someone else. I just and it does, it communicates a lot. It communicates your entire intent and your willingness to help and
00:49:19
Speaker 1: also what it's going to take to engage that willingness. I think it's it's it's excellent. Thank
00:49:24
Speaker 2: you so much for the
00:49:25
Speaker 1: feedback and thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please do keep them coming. You can send your next piece of feedback update or question to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can also leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463.
00:49:55
Speaker 2: It's
00:49:56
Speaker 1: time for our post script segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette and today we're going to talk about some now and then etiquette, we'll be looking at points of etiquette from Emily's 1922 edition that have changed by 2000 and 22. And before we get going, I have to tell a little story about the origin of this post script and that's that lizzie and I are starting to do a lot of media interviews where we're talking about the 100th anniversary of family post
00:50:23
Speaker 1: etiquette brand and the coming of the 20th edition of Emily post etiquette and almost
00:50:29
Speaker 1: Universally you get asked in these interviews will give me some examples of some ways that etiquette has changed. Give me some examples from 1922 and today that illustrate how etiquette has changed and
00:50:41
Speaker 1: it would sound like such an easy task and it's actually harder than it sounds as anybody that listens to the show regularly knows a lot of etiquette stays remarkably consistent. Those core principles of consideration, respect and honesty
00:50:55
Speaker 1: really shine through a lot of our social expectations. And when you're
00:50:59
Speaker 1: looking for significant changes or behavior changes that illustrate deeper changes.
00:51:05
Speaker 1: The answer is usually that the changes are
00:51:08
Speaker 1: more details there more manners and they usually show a consistency with underlying principles of consideration, respect, and honesty.
00:51:17
Speaker 2: So,
00:51:18
Speaker 1: lizzie and I've been thinking a lot about this question and looking for examples that illustrate
00:51:23
Speaker 1: all of these things that I'm saying, but do it much more succinctly and with examples for people. So lizzie, you want to take us through a couple or
00:51:31
Speaker 2: absolutely will and I'll just before I do, I'll piggyback on what you just said. I also think that
00:51:36
Speaker 2: unexciting lee a lot of the changes are things you already know experience and and are sometimes even things that are lamented or there are things that are heavily cheered
00:51:48
Speaker 2: um you know, and so it's it's it's always like we know that a lot of people do not experience the world of dating with a chaperone.
00:51:57
Speaker 2: And Emily's 1922 edition talks about chaperones and, you know, by the 50s and 60s, they're not talking about chaperones anymore. It's that that piece of etiquette is sort of gone. Um but I I did delight in finding some of the things that that we wrote about or talked about
00:52:15
Speaker 2: Um that were also in the 1922 and and to see how they changed. And one of the first ones
00:52:21
Speaker 2: Was in introductions. And and this one gets a little bit of a caveat because technically you could still operate under Emily's rule. Um and there are some places where you might really be able to, but for the most part, introductions are a lot more casual. So in 1922, Emily wrote, the younger person is always presented to the older person or more distinguished,
00:52:42
Speaker 2: but a gentleman is always presented to a lady, even though he is an old gentleman of great distinction. And the lady a mere slip of a girl. And I like the fact that our introductions have, have become less um,
00:52:59
Speaker 2: I would say formalized, not in the sense that it's not important to do them,
00:53:03
Speaker 2: But less formalized in terms of guessing people's age or distinction. There are lots of cases where you just might not know exactly. So I'm a fan of this particular change, but in 2022,
00:53:16
Speaker 2: you know, we don't often say, may I present this person to you. And it's a question that we're framing to the older, more distinguished person of the introduction.
00:53:27
Speaker 1: I was thinking about how introductions have changed over time. And it's
00:53:31
Speaker 1: it's almost a perfect example of the problem and the problem being that introductions were made fundamentally important and that you show respect to people in ways that they can recognize and understand to stayed remarkably consistent and
00:53:46
Speaker 1: at the same time, introductions are about first meetings. So they oftentimes are designed to honor and respect social hierarchy. And then they also are wrapped up in how we identify ourselves and each other. So whenever we have changes in our social hierarchy or in ways that we identify
00:54:05
Speaker 1: introductions change and they change in in some ways really fundamental ways and in other ways
00:54:11
Speaker 1: they really stay remarkably consistent. I'm curious lizzie, do you have other examples maybe from some different areas of etiquette?
00:54:18
Speaker 2: Of course, of course, in the area of engagement etiquette in 1922 Emily writes this about men and women who are engaged and it's titled the etiquette of engaged people.
00:54:31
Speaker 2: It is unnecessary to say that an engaged man shows no attention whatever to other women. It should be plain to everyone, even though he need not behave like a moon calf that one and that's in quotes is alone in his thoughts. Often. It so happens that engaged people are very little together because he is away at work or for other reasons
00:54:56
Speaker 2: rather than sit home alone, She may continue to go out in society, which is quite alright, but she must avoid being with any one man more than another and she should remain visibly within the general circle of her group.
00:55:13
Speaker 2: It always gives gossip a chance to see an engaged girl sitting out dances with any particular man
00:55:21
Speaker 2: and slander is never far away. If any evidence of ardor creeps into their regard, even if it be merely quote unquote manner and actually mean nothing at all.
00:55:35
Speaker 2: I like because this, this idea of the perception of of where your romantic attentions are during your engagement period, which I don't think it did you experience any of that when you were engaged? I
00:55:48
Speaker 1: don't know, I made it to the wedding. So probably not.
00:55:51
Speaker 2: I think it's still good
00:55:54
Speaker 1: advice. I would draw those circles in different places in terms of stay inside this or don't. But again, core advice, solid particulars look a little suspect from 100 year
00:56:06
Speaker 2: distance
00:56:09
Speaker 2: they do today. I think we have cross gender friendships all over the place and and people tend to be, although we know jealousy can can creep in pretty secure and they know each other's friend circles and things like that. So,
00:56:24
Speaker 2: you know, if if you were off with your friend Kelsey during the engagement period, eyebrows wouldn't be raised or tongues wagging fingers, fingers shaking
00:56:34
Speaker 2: in your direction at all. Um and I think these are some of the things people most certainly appreciate about etiquette today and for
00:56:42
Speaker 1: the evolution
00:56:43
Speaker 2: of etiquette today, that these aren't the kinds of things that we allow to create a whole lot of gossip or scandal or slander as Emily, but
00:56:51
Speaker 1: said.
00:56:53
Speaker 2: So the next piece of advice, I think the word alone will feel a little old fashioned to us. And it's about the trousseau, which um Emily describes, I think actually really well and and it's really cute because this particular quote dan has
00:57:08
Speaker 2: Emily reflecting back on what previous
00:57:11
Speaker 1: generations try
00:57:13
Speaker 2: sos might look like and she makes a little joke about it.
00:57:16
Speaker 2: So the true, so
00:57:17
Speaker 2: a true. So according to the derivation of the word was a little trust or bundle that the bride carried with her to the house of her husband. In modern times, the quote unquote little bundle often requires the services of a van to transport, which I just love
00:57:35
Speaker 1: her joking about
00:57:36
Speaker 2: that.
00:57:37
Speaker 2: The rappers and underclothes of a young girl are usually very simple, but when she is to be a bride, her mother buys her as lavishly as she can and of the prettiest possible assortment of lace trimmed lingerie tea gowns, bed sacks and that's spelled S. A C. Q. U. E. S.
00:57:58
Speaker 2: And caps, whatever may be thought especially becoming the various underdressed garments which are to be worn in her room or at the breakfast table. And for the sole admiration of her husband are of far greater importance than the dresses and hats to be worn in public. Woo! That's saying something
00:58:18
Speaker 2: that your, your nightgown and your PJs are the most important things for you to be bringing. I thought that was really interesting that back then, the idea was that the thing and in Emily's Day, you know, an original trousseau might have any number of things in it that a young woman would be bringing to her husband and his family
00:58:38
Speaker 2: as she enters and kind of joins this new family.
00:58:42
Speaker 2: Um, but to to think of how in Emily's Day that had really translated to be your undergarments, your cozy clothes that you wear at home today. I think we just call it Athleisure and we have a lot of it at home on our own.
00:58:55
Speaker 2: Um, I know there's still lingerie and bed gowns and and and beautiful negligees and things like that and robes,
00:59:03
Speaker 2: but you don't think of of yourself, I would imagine when you're a bride like packing up those particular things and in Emily's imagination into a van and driving them to your new house. Most people are living together already.
00:59:17
Speaker 1: I find it
00:59:18
Speaker 1: amusing. It puts a smile on my face that the content that Emily discusses that's as close to risque as possible, um, has to be dressed up in a french words that somehow the risky nature of it uh warrants
00:59:36
Speaker 1: warrants french defying it in some way, or at least that's the impression that I
00:59:40
Speaker 2: get
00:59:42
Speaker 2: The final piece that we have is from Emily's formal dinner section. And in 1922, she's talking about donuts in table setting and there's an exclamation point at the end of that header, which I find so funny
00:59:55
Speaker 2: and she starts this section with something that is still very true today. She actually is talking about no labels on the table, which we we still say informal dining. You know, you don't want that ketchup bottle
01:00:06
Speaker 2: in the bottle with the label on it at the table instead, it's served in a little dish with a little spoon or something like that. And there are lots of things that fall into that category.
01:00:15
Speaker 2: But as she moves on from from the no labels at the table, she says,
01:00:19
Speaker 2: saucers for vegetables are contrary to all etiquette. The only extra plates ever permitted are the bread and butter plates which are put on at breakfast and lunch and supper above and to the left of the forks, but never at dinner and that I had to laugh at because we definitely use the butter plate and the butter knife at dinner all the time. It's a part of the standard part of the formal dinner table setting.
01:00:49
Speaker 2: It was really comical to read that at one point, that was never a part of the dinner table setting. And
01:00:55
Speaker 1: while very little changes about our most essential table manners, how we dress up and dress down. The table seems to be one of those places where
01:01:05
Speaker 1: we have seen some change.
01:01:06
Speaker 2: Absolute. There must have been, at at some point in the 1920s like a trend, and and Emily would call it an incorrect trend or a misconception that dressing your table with like
01:01:19
Speaker 2: ribbons and bows would make it all the prettier, you know, like
01:01:23
Speaker 1: going for an
01:01:24
Speaker 2: extravagant table scape and she pooh poohs it, she absolutely says, no, no, no,
01:01:28
Speaker 2: we don't do this. You don't put these things on. It's too much extra. And it just, it made me laugh. I don't think we do so much ribbons and bows today, but I know of many a hostess is that a lot of fun with their table scape. Whether it's with confetti or a really um
01:01:48
Speaker 2: inspired and different way of like arranging flowers on the table. Maybe they're scattered throughout as opposed to in one big bunch. So it was kind of fun to hear her,
01:01:57
Speaker 2: Her take on what I think were some kind of trends that were happening at the moment in 1922.
01:02:04
Speaker 1: Absolutely.
01:02:05
Speaker 2: Well, I don't
01:02:06
Speaker 1: know if we're any closer to finding perfect examples of how etiquette changed,
01:02:12
Speaker 1: but I do enjoy taking a tour through Emily post and thinking about differences. Big and small as
01:02:18
Speaker 1: we're all part of this tradition and we are marking this 100 years. It's fun to look back. Thanks for taking us on that tour lizzie post.
01:02:24
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for being with me.
01:02:31
Speaker 1: Next friday, there's
01:02:32
Speaker 2: gonna be a weenie roast.
01:02:34
Speaker 2: Well there will be a bowling
01:02:35
Speaker 1: party if you'd rather do
01:02:36
Speaker 2: that.
01:02:37
Speaker 2: Or we could go to the
01:02:38
Speaker 1: band concert. I've enjoyed
01:02:40
Speaker 2: going to the weenie roast very
01:02:42
Speaker 1: much. Unless you don't
01:02:43
Speaker 2: have to.
01:02:44
Speaker 2: No, I'd rather go to the weenie roast.
01:02:56
Speaker 2: Mhm
01:02:56
Speaker 2: mm hmm.
01:02:59
Speaker 2: We like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world. Yes, it really does still happen. And it can come in so many forms and today we have a salute from Ray. Hello
01:03:12
Speaker 1: dan lizzie. And the whole awesome etiquette Emily Post team. I would like to thank you and offer an etiquette salute to you.
01:03:19
Speaker 1: I have been a listener to awesome etiquette since early on. So there are many things for me to say, thank you for what I'm writing about today. What I'd like to salute you for is the way you make etiquette accessible. You give us the framework that makes it easy to figure out what the right thing to do is in most situations.
01:03:37
Speaker 1: I have a sweet friend who Wallen adul is young enough to be my daughter. She grew up in horrific circumstances. So the niceties, like manners were not something she learned.
01:03:47
Speaker 1: We got talking recently about how much I enjoy getting into the intricacies of etiquette. And that led to a conversation about manners in general.
01:03:55
Speaker 1: I was able to assure her that the fact that she didn't know every rule didn't mean she didn't operate without good manners.
01:04:02
Speaker 1: She is a kind, loving and considerate person. So telling her that it's really about practicing consideration, respect and honesty eased her mind.
01:04:10
Speaker 1: Thanks to you, your podcast and your books. I was able to explain some of the basics which he had picked up by being the recipient of those basics.
01:04:19
Speaker 1: We talked about the Golden rule and the Platinum rule. Thank you for giving me language to use. That made it easy for her to understand.
01:04:26
Speaker 1: Thank you also for making etiquette so simple instead of some big scary thing. Keep up the good work. Warm regards Gray
01:04:36
Speaker 2: Ray, thank you so much for that salute is really, really kind.
01:04:40
Speaker 2: I know sometimes I get a little squeamish about us doing the ones that are for us dan. But this was a really a nice, a nice salute kind of to the show and how how it could help in this etiquette is accessible thing. So I really appreciate that Ray, thank you for taking the time.
01:04:55
Speaker 1: I'll second that and say it. It also warms my heart to hear that the show is making etiquette more approachable. That is one of lizzie Post and my great hopes for awesome etiquette. Thank you so much for this salute
01:05:07
Speaker 2: and thank you our audience for listening
01:05:10
Speaker 1: and thank you to everyone who sent us something and everyone who supports us on patreon.
01:05:15
Speaker 2: Please connect with us and share this show with friends, family, coworkers, whoever you like
01:05:20
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01:05:21
Speaker 2: in any way that you'd like to share podcasts,
01:05:24
Speaker 1: you can send us your next question feedback or salute by email to awesome etiquette Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463
01:05:38
Speaker 1: on twitter. We are at Emily posted on instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute and on facebook we're both awesome etiquette and the Emily Post Institute.
01:05:47
Speaker 2: Please consider becoming a sustaining member of the podcast by visiting patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette. You can also subscribe to the ads version
01:05:57
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01:05:58
Speaker 2: your favorite podcast app and please consider leaving us a review. It helps our show ranking which helps more people find awesome etiquette.
01:06:06
Speaker 1: Our show is edited by Kris Albertine and a system produced by Bridget Dowd.
01:06:11
Speaker 2: Thanks chris and
01:06:12
Speaker 1: Bridget.
01:06:16
Speaker 1: Mm hmm
