Episode 394 - Profanity Please

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Speaker 1: maybe

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Speaker 2: it's just that you don't know how to use social

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Speaker 1: courtesy. That's

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Speaker 2: old

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Speaker 1: fashioned

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Speaker 2: watch act as host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect thinking of the other person. Real friendliness.

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Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

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Speaker 2: Hello

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Speaker 1: and welcome to awesome etiquette

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Speaker 2: Where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty.

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Speaker 1: On today's show, we take your questions on tipping when service is subpar which side of the table to sit on when meeting someone new for lunch, answering questions about no longer drinking alcohol and how to handle encouraged profanity at

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Speaker 2: work for awesome etiquette sustaining members. Our question of the week is about dealing with a pushy landlord

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Speaker 1: Plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a postscript on Emily writing the 1922 edition of etiquette.

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Speaker 2: All that's coming up.

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Speaker 2: Mhm

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Speaker 1: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in mud season Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute. I'm lizzie Post

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Speaker 2: and I'm dan post Senning

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Speaker 1: because we'll come back.

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Speaker 1: It's

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Speaker 2: so good to hear you

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Speaker 1: because it is so very nice to be back on the mic with you after christmas vacation. And what else were we gone for?

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Speaker 2: Oh you know a couple of things going on around here.

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Speaker 2: I am so happy to be back. It's so good to hear you and it is so good to introduce Williamson High sending to the entire awesome etiquette audience.

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Speaker 1: He's so cute you guys. I've gotten to hold him.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's pretty, he's pretty handsome. I gotta say

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Speaker 1: he's there's a

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Speaker 2: certain something about him that I think is yeah, got quite striking definitely You

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Speaker 1: guys make cute babies. It was so exciting to get to come up and and meet William and

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Speaker 1: all of it. Hearing the name, hearing the first story, just being around you guys. Even in those first couple of weeks, it was so exciting.

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Speaker 1: I will. I want to hear how it's been for you. I mean it's such a, it's such a special time in a family's life.

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Speaker 2: It's so funny. Thank you for asking. I didn't plan what I was going to say in this moment. I was just trusting myself that being with you and thinking about the awesome etiquette audience would inspire something. And what I'm finding is coming to my mind is how much I appreciate the time that I got to spend with

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Speaker 2: the new baby with William, but also with my whole family. And

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Speaker 2: the paternity leave is just, it was such a special thing for me and

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Speaker 1: I've

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Speaker 2: been in the embrace of family and I've spent so much time with my other daughters, Anisha and Aria, who have really been my responsibility for a couple of weeks and

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Speaker 2: for a while pooches, parents were with us really helping take care of her in those days right after William arrived, but they've now returned home and I'm also doing that duty and

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Speaker 2: it's very satisfying to spend that time just so close with the people that you love the most and

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Speaker 2: I just treasure it. I know I'm going to remember these days and I'm going to have these memories for the rest of my life and I just really want to thank you for helping to make that possible because

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Speaker 2: the time

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Speaker 2: that just stretched out around me was was so important and it's just,

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Speaker 2: I really, really appreciate it and I wish I could share that feeling even more. I wish I could just project it out to the whole audience and

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Speaker 1: I've made some

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Speaker 2: decisions in my life. I don't share a lot about my kids in my public life, but I would like to share just a couple of photos. I'm going to do it over on our Patreon and I'll be sure

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Speaker 2: that they're, they're not hidden, anybody that goes to the awesome etiquette, Patreon can see them. I don't have them up on social media, so that would be the only place you could.

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Speaker 2: But um I I do want to share a little bit of this experience with the awesome etiquette audience and I think that's the best way to do it.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I think that's, that's really exciting. I was both blown away and excited when, on our live call with our sustaining members,

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Speaker 1: which we did do the recorded version is up. So if if any sustaining members missed it, they can definitely check it out. But I, I love that we got to actually meet the fam on that particular call. It was really, really special

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Speaker 1: and really exciting and I, well I appreciate that, thank you. I also need to just explain to the audience how I think it was four days, maybe five, but it was within a week

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Speaker 1: of baby being born. I was getting work phone calls from Daniel and I had to tell him like, what are you doing? Like,

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Speaker 1: no, just only call me about the baby, like, like you take your time off, but I want to echo your appreciation for the time off that you were able to get by way of thanking our audience for really coming up with all these questions and feedback and salutes that allowed us to pre record

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Speaker 1: for both christmas vacation and your paternity leave,

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Speaker 1: but it was so wonderful to not have that kind of weekly grind upon us and with everything as well. And it benefited me as well and I really appreciate that

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Speaker 1: your paternity leave has been such a fun time, even though you've been gone from Emily Post because we're cousins and because we're friends and we keep in touch so much.

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Speaker 1: I have really valued this time in your life and it's been, it's been really cool. It's been really fun. Um one of our sustaining members made the comment that having us talk about how at a small family business we've handled

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Speaker 1: a new birth and welcoming a new one into the family and giving a coworker time to be able to absorb that,

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Speaker 1: that it was really valuable to kind of open the curtain and see us do that and, and present that as an example of how you could do it. And it really felt like this time and not that it didn't any of the other times, but because this is the one we're focused on, it really, it felt like it did go really well and I just appreciate you so much for that dan because I think it's really tough to have to step away

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Speaker 1: for like a month and you were so supportive in your stepping away. I was blown away. I was often teasing you on the phone. Like go get, can't go. Don't you think about work, You don't worry about it. But it was, it's been a really fun fun month and I'm really excited for you guys and happy for all of you. And it's been really fun seeing the girls

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Speaker 1: both adapt to being DDS now and

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Speaker 2: that's, it's

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Speaker 1: really, really cool and, and it's, it's fun to always see the smile and the excitement and I love the calls where you show the pictures of them and stuff. So,

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Speaker 1: so really just cool and fun to have you back on the mic and us sharing all of this with the audience because that's been another thing. I've been really excited is for everyone to hear about him.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, we're still at what my brother would call and with good humor. The houseplant face where there's, there's not a lot of action, but,

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Speaker 2: but there is a lot of action and it takes a family and it takes a whole community to do this. And you talk about the, the, the challenges and the joys of small business, of family business and

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Speaker 2: you know, during my time away, people would ask me to say, oh, do you have a paternity? Like how much time off do you have? And

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Speaker 1: my answer

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Speaker 2: was so ambiguous, you know, because the reality is no, I was, you know, in a hospital room

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Speaker 2: in the morning when everybody was asleep, double checking that the podcast posted and

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Speaker 1: we

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Speaker 2: did a pretty good job on the schedule and I messed up some bonus questions. I'm sorry to our sustaining members. I think it's been straightened out at this point, but,

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Speaker 2: but having that flexibility to dip in and do just some of the really like necessary maintenance stuff, but also to really step away and not feel burdened by it. And like there was the time in the space in life

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Speaker 2: to just gaze into the eyes of the newest arrival and I could just keep going on and on about it. But

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Speaker 1: I'm also really

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Speaker 2: excited to be back. We've got a great script in front of us and

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Speaker 2: you teased mud season in the intro and I could talk about mud season for awhile because I also haven't left the house more than once in the last week

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Speaker 1: and that's not because the baby y'all, that's because of the mud

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Speaker 2: but that does feel kind of secondary at the moment to the big picture of it's really good to be back with all of you and I can't wait to get to our show.

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Speaker 1: Me too. Let's do it. Let's just dive right in and get to some

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Speaker 2: questions. Let's do it, awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions. You can email them to awesome etiquette at the Emily Post dot com. Leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind that's 8028585463. You can also reach us on social media on twitter, we are at Emily Post on instagram, we are at Emily Post institute and on facebook we are awesome etiquette. Just remember use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the show.

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Speaker 1: Our first question is titled restaurant regrets and I know it's won. A lot of people have had

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Speaker 1: hi friends. My question is twofold one, how do I let the restaurant know I'm disappointed in the service. I had bad service at a restaurant I love so I'm not just going to not visit the restaurant after but it was sad.

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Speaker 1: The second question is how do I tip after bad service. I went for 20% but it somehow felt wrong when I do that for decent service or good service. Thanks so much for your help anonymous.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for the question. This is a situation that I think people find themselves in. Not

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Speaker 2: often but more often than we would

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Speaker 1: like.

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Speaker 2: And it's one of the reasons that when we talk about a tip we talk about a range that you do have an option within the tipping range for sit down service that allows you to

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Speaker 2: apply some of that discretion and

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Speaker 2: Once upon a time we used to talk about the bottom end of that range being 10%. Really we first

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Speaker 1: joined the institute totally

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Speaker 2: Today it's much closer to 15% that that if you wanna dip below that 20% you can drift down to the 15% mark and I mentioned the 10% because there are some traditionalists out there that really have that number still in their mind where

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Speaker 2: As the reality is that it's these days more like a 15% baseline but

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Speaker 2: It is there and it is there for people that usually tip 20% or generously above 20% that you can fall back to that 15% as a way to indicate that the service wasn't where you had hoped it would be

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Speaker 2: particularly if your usual tip is more than that. Now that's not going to read to everybody and if the type of issue that you've been running into is

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Speaker 2: something that inspires you to want to tip even less than that. The recommendation that we give is that you asked to speak to someone about it that you let your words do your talking.

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Speaker 1: It's really true because you don't want to let your money speak for you and a lack of a tip. So something that falls below 15

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Speaker 1: would be considered a lack of a tip or a tip that's trying to send a message. And that's really not the most effective way, especially at a restaurant. That's your favorite place where anonymous mentions

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to not go back like the food, the food is still good. I just didn't get service, good service on this particular occasion

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Speaker 1: and it it made me feel conflicted and I think that's where you really do want to use your words to convey your disappointment and you seek out the manager.

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Speaker 1: Um and if they're not there, you might get their card or something so that you could call back. And that's also not a bad idea by the way, just so that you're not speaking out of anger if you're really frustrated.

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Speaker 1: But I do think speaking to a manager, letting them know, listen, I love this restaurant. I appreciate it so much. The food is so excellent and typically the service is great, but tonight it really wasn't and it was to the degree that I felt bad leaving my usual tip. And even though I left my usual tip, I did want to speak up and say this just really didn't go well tonight.

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Speaker 1: And I think some version of that, you can address specifics if they're real specifics to mention, that's always really helpful feedback for managers to here. But it is, it is important to have that conversation and not just let your money speak for you. And I think dan made a really good point of because our advice on this topic is that you, you tip the minimum if you're frustrated or you had an unpleasant experience

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Speaker 1: and then you speak to the manager and tipping that minimum.

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Speaker 1: The point again is not to use your money to speak for you and you you tip that minimum because it's a, it's a part of the sort of social contract of dining out when we go out, we know servers are not paid a full minimum wage.

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Speaker 1: Um in fact they're paid much below that. I believe there's something called like a federal tipping minimum that's in the $2 range. And so when we go out to eat, we are entering this sort of construct where

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Speaker 1: We, we see the prices set on the menu and we know that we are going to be ourselves paying for the actual service. And because we always say leave that baseline of 15% and 15% technically is the bottom of sort of that acceptable range,

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Speaker 1: You're not necessarily sending a message even if you think you're trying to buy leaving a 15%. And so it's, it really is important to have that conversation. The message won't, won't come across even tipping that minimum amount,

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Speaker 1: it's a frustrating position to be in as a patron, it's a disappointing position to be in and I really sympathize with you on that,

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Speaker 1: But once again just hit him home at the end. Right, Dan. Our advice is that that you tip somewhere in that minimum range of 15-20% and you you speak with the manager about whatever was wrong

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Speaker 2: and I really like your construct for how you give that feedback

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Speaker 2: that you tell them something that you really like or appreciate about the place. I think that your purpose, when you give feedback like that ideally, is

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Speaker 2: to improve the situation so that you get to enjoy the improved situation down the line and I think your likelihood of your feedback, your recommendation, your comment being heard and being acted on goes way, way up. If someone understands that you're coming from a place of

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Speaker 2: appreciation for what the restaurant does do

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Speaker 2: and a desire to continue to patronize it. And there are some places that are famously not looking for patrons and make bad service, a part of who they are and I can think of some famous Seinfeld episodes

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Speaker 1: always coming back to Seinfeld, the two of us

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Speaker 2: at the same time, there are very few places that operate on that kind of a model where it's really up to you to figure out how to navigate

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Speaker 2: the quirks and peculiarities of the service of a very popular place. But that also might be part of the solution. That the part of the answer might be that you learn to go on the less busy lunch hours or the less busy times of night when the service isn't so hurried and harried or rushed and there might be other workarounds for you where you can keep enjoying it even if they're not able

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Speaker 2: to achieve the better service that you're hoping to see

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Speaker 1: anonymous. We hope that our answer helps and that your next visit to this favorite spot is a really happy one,

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Speaker 1: but

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Speaker 2: we need more than the back here.

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Speaker 1: A

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Speaker 2: compromise helps settle some disputes. Each person gives in a little bit and then both can have part of what they wanted.

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Speaker 2: Our next question Askar wonders which side to sit on,

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Speaker 2: greetings stan and lizzie. I have the joy of meeting one of my dearest friends for lunch almost every week.

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Speaker 2: This week she invited a friend of hers to join us. I am acquainted with this friend, but it was my first time to dine out with her. We were seated at a table with four with two chairs on one side and a bench on the other.

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Speaker 2: They were seated first at each side of the table.

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Speaker 2: Was there a proper side. I should have sat on

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Speaker 2: besides my weekly friend and across from the new friend or beside the new friend and across from my weekly friend,

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Speaker 2: I love your podcast and strive to set an example of consideration, respect and honesty, sincerely. Lady who lunches,

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Speaker 1: lady who lunches, there's no particular rule here, but I'm I'm loving the dynamics of this setup, right? You've got three people

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Speaker 1: going to a four top, but it's a bench on one side and two chairs

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Speaker 1: on the other. I can picture it

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Speaker 2: totally

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Speaker 1: and when you arrived the other two have already been seated and they are sitting across from one another. And so that, you know, there is that debate, do you sit closer to the person that you

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Speaker 1: I don't know or do you sit closer to the person, you know? But you're looking across to the person you do, making sure that this new person is now not like alone or do you sit

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Speaker 1: next to the person you do know because you're closer to them literally and now physically. And then does that put any awkwardness on the new friend feeling almost like like for me that could set up the feeling like that person is almost being interviewed,

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Speaker 2: interview

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Speaker 1: your interview? Yeah, totally. And so

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Speaker 1: I feel like in my, like my just so you know, my natural instinct is this you sit wherever is easiest? Like if you walk up and the simplest thing to do is pull up that chair and sit down rather than like scooting around and onto a bench or something like that, do what's easiest.

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Speaker 1: But I also know some people really like to look out versus in, I don't know how this table was positioned. We were also considering

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Speaker 1: this friend with a friend feel weird that you're sitting close to someone that you don't know yet, you know, like there's all kinds of that. But I think um for me, the biggest thing that stands out is I probably,

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Speaker 1: I would ask when I show up is so where should I sit? You know, like or who you know, is it okay if I sit next to you, if I'm talking to the new person

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Speaker 1: and I don't think they're ever going to come back and say no, you shouldn't. But I I do think just being aware that a newcomer, you would want to make them feel welcome in any way possible. And even if you did end up sitting in a situation that kind of made it look like that interview style,

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Speaker 1: that being incredibly warm and friendly will melt that

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Speaker 1: physical position awkwardness. If there is any instantly that a table of three people excited to talk to one another listening to one another, leaning in and engaging is going to lessen that feeling of

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Speaker 2: interview

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Speaker 1: style,

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Speaker 2: I'm so glad I got to read this question to you because I was really curious.

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Speaker 1: It's it's

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Speaker 2: an interesting little social moment, right? You walk up to that table and you've got two choices in front of you, where do you go? And I was curious what what you would say your instinct was. And I was very much thinking about the social dynamics and

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Speaker 2: I was keyed on

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Speaker 2: that, that quality of the two people that know each other. If they're together,

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Speaker 2: it might make that other person feel like they're outside in some way or like you say, being interviewed

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Speaker 2: at the same time, it's social, it's friendly.

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Speaker 2: I don't think there's too much invested in that impression by anybody there, or at least there shouldn't be.

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Speaker 2: But I really liked your reminder about just the practicality of the table when you approach it.

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Speaker 2: If

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Speaker 2: if that sort of minor social concern has you awkwardly squeezing into a bench that's further away. Like that starts to point it out more almost, it starts to be more awkward that

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Speaker 2: um, you're you're looking for ease and comfort in this situation. Your reminder to stay engaged wherever you sit in a friendly, open, generous way or are the things that are going to matter the most?

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Speaker 1: I

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Speaker 2: I also really liked your question

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Speaker 2: and not question, but just um hey, could I sit here? Or do you mind if I sit here, mind if I pull up a chair or something like that? Just to acknowledge that yes, you're going to take a space next to someone and that you have made a little choice in your mind, you want to include them in that. And

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Speaker 2: I think those are always to, to soften that whole moment, make it just a little bit easier for everyone

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Speaker 1: dan. What do you think about the idea of the two of you? Let's say you were going to meet one of Putin's friends for the first time and we're all going to go out to like a regular lunch. Maybe your favorite will alongs or something like that. Although I don't think they have sit down, so maybe not, but they have

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Speaker 2: very limited seating. This is

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Speaker 1: actually limited seating

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Speaker 2: question because you're so close, you're around these little tables. Anyway, so

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Speaker 1: would you do you think maybe you and would sit like together on the bench because you're the two that know each other and put the other person conveniently on the other side? Like, I'm imagining these two,

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Speaker 1: the regular lunch friend bringing the new friend and the two of them sitting on the bench side and making it easy for our listener to come in and just take that seat. That's the pullout seat and sit down there like, I don't know, is does that seem too thought out? You

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Speaker 2: know, you're you're asking the question that was in my mind and I wasn't sure if we were gonna go there or not.

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Speaker 1: Okay. I was

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Speaker 2: wondering lizzie, I was and I almost asked you if

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Speaker 2: it would make any difference for you, the genders of the people involved

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Speaker 2: and I like the particular dynamic that you bring up where there might be a couple, a partner or a spouse where you're really closely linked to one to that to that friend and you oftentimes operate as a couple or a

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Speaker 1: diet.

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Speaker 1: I think any gender doesn't matter. I think no matter what gender you are, you could come up with any kind of arrangement. In fact,

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Speaker 1: One of the things that is new to that 20th edition that we're working on and I'm so excited to receive the design edit this Saturday that's tomorrow is that we've tried to really remove the idea of like binary gender seating throughout the book. And I think especially for

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Speaker 1: luncheons among friends or dinners among friends or brunches among friends, pick your meal.

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Speaker 1: Um, I think it doesn't really matter in this case, but couples I think is more interesting. And we get some hot debates on our social media about couples wanting to sit together versus couples sitting apart from one another. I don't know, I could picture because

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Speaker 1: in this case the example I gave was a friend of pooches coming to lunch with the two of you

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Speaker 1: and it was a friend that you didn't know for some reason, I don't I don't know, maybe maybe I'm not thinking about it fully. But so audience please chime in with your, your thoughts on this, but

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Speaker 1: I think it doesn't really matter. I often find that when I'm with a couple, I end up sitting with the two of them sitting together and me across from them and in this kind of going out to dinner dynamic that often feels natural because there's only the three of us, there aren't other people to help mix it in and break people up and things like that. So for the couple, when it's just the couple and one other person or the couple and to other people, even if those two people aren't

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Speaker 1: a couple of themselves, I think it's, it's fine to kind of do it anyway, you want, I don't see like a power dynamic by like um pooch sitting on one side of the table and the friends sitting on the other side of the table. But it is, it's an interesting question and it is one that I think probably changes the larger the table gets, the more likely I am to want to split people up and mix people

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Speaker 2: around

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Speaker 1: dan. I'll be honest, if I'm going to dinner with you and I'm of course gonna expect the two of you to sit next to each other just because if it's just the three of us, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: there's something about that, that just like your together and so it just seems part that you sit together. Like it

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Speaker 2: almost feels to me the same way that the question of, well, is there an easier place to sit when you approach the table feels, is this just the more practiced action between

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Speaker 1: the group. Do

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Speaker 2: we usually sit together? Are we almost always sitting together? Yes. So are we probably gonna sit together this time? Yes.

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Speaker 1: Okay. But when it's you, me and pooch, I could also see us putting you on the other side of the table and puja and I next to each other because puja and I actually like to take bites of each other's plates. Whereas you guard your plate like it is your very own thing. So she gets to exercise. Like the two of us get to exercise our sharing willingness

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Speaker 1: and you can just be over there on the other side of the table, enjoying your own plate. Like with its boundary around it so

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Speaker 2: much to keep track of

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Speaker 1: lady who lunches I think no matter where you sit, as long as the conversation is engaging

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Speaker 1: and you treat everyone at the table with a welcome spirit. I think no matter where you sit, you're going to have a lovely lunch larry. Good manners were never invented to make anyone look silly. Good manners. Show our consideration for the feelings of other people to help us. We have rules that we follow rules of good behavior.

00:26:05

Speaker 1: Do you understand larry?

00:26:13

Speaker 2: Our next question is about abstaining from alcohol.

00:26:16

Speaker 2: Hello again, etiquette squad.

00:26:18

Speaker 1: Oh, I like that etiquette squad.

00:26:21

Speaker 2: I'll be a squad member.

00:26:24

Speaker 2: I used to be quite a big social drinker, but now I'm coming up on a year and a half without drinking alcohol. Friends who I see and talk to often are now used to the booze free version of me, but acquaintances whom I see less often and new people that I meet are still discovering that I am no longer drinking alcohol.

00:26:42

Speaker 2: It comes up naturally in conversation and it's not something I'm bashful about sharing publicly.

00:26:47

Speaker 2: However, the problem comes in when people start to pry,

00:26:51

Speaker 2: I am far too often asked point blank, why did you quit drinking? Did something bad happen? Was there one event that made you stop drinking? Were you an alcoholic?

00:27:01

Speaker 2: I find this line of questioning to be quite insensitive, especially since at this point, the people who are learning of my sobriety are not my close friends.

00:27:10

Speaker 2: The first thing that comes to my mind when asked these questions is

00:27:13

Speaker 2: if there was an event that was so bad that it made me stop drinking or if I was an alcoholic, does this person really think I would want to share it with them and anyone who asks me the same question and at a party or a wedding nonetheless, which is where these conversations are normally happening

00:27:30

Speaker 2: for context. I was a big drinker back in the day, I wasn't addicted to alcohol. It wasn't destroying my life and there was no terrible event that made me ditch the sauce.

00:27:39

Speaker 2: I simply realized it wasn't adding anything to my life. And for that reason I decided to stop drinking

00:27:45

Speaker 2: because of this. I normally take the easy route out and tell people that there was no event or addiction issue that led to my sobriety. But it feels wrong not to use this opportunity to advocate for those who don't have that luxury by sending the message that bringing up a traumatic event or a dark time

00:28:03

Speaker 2: in a casual social group setting is not appropriate.

00:28:07

Speaker 2: I don't want to play any part in normalizing this type of questioning.

00:28:11

Speaker 2: So finally my question,

00:28:14

Speaker 2: how do I give an answer that gently tells the nosy nancy? They have crossed a line. I know I know we're not supposed to correct someone else's bad etiquette, but is there an exception for social advocacy?

00:28:27

Speaker 2: If you couldn't tell from my opening paragraph? I'm more than comfortable with giving a cheeky answer,

00:28:32

Speaker 1: but

00:28:33

Speaker 2: I haven't been able to come up with one that doesn't sound straight up rude, thank you for your help navigating this and so many other tricky situations, charlotte

00:28:43

Speaker 1: Charlotte. I can so sympathize with where you are at Ii to actually did. Did I think it was two plus years of sobriety and for me it was for no traumatic event, not because I had a problem with alcohol, but because I got to 30 and realized I hadn't

00:29:03

Speaker 1: Ben.

00:29:04

Speaker 1: I mean I had been sober, but I hadn't had like at length any sobriety in my life since I had been able to drink legally at 21 so it was, even though I did not drink every day, I just wanted to know what life was like when you chose to live it sober and

00:29:22

Speaker 1: much like you, I had one dan, I think I've told you this story before. I had one summer night where I was out with friends and this was during my sobriety and I ran into high school acquaintance, not someone I hung out with, not someone that I even exchanged phone numbers with

00:29:38

Speaker 1: just high school acquaintance and this particular high school acquaintance has a tendency

00:29:43

Speaker 1: to ask questions like these inappropriate questions and I got all three of them, it was straight off the bat, oh you're drinking water, Do you have a problem with alcohol? Wait, are you actually doing it to lose the weight, which I was like, wait what? Wait

00:29:59

Speaker 1: and

00:30:00

Speaker 2: then wait for it, wait for it, you

00:30:01

Speaker 1: know, is it? And then the final one, are you pregnant? And it was like the loudest, are you pregnant? You know, you could believe? And that one actually really hard because I had

00:30:13

Speaker 1: wanted to be pregnant, had just ended a relationship that wasn't going to move into the marriage and family direction and it was really hard just to be like ouch ouch! And ouch! Like yeah, like wow, okay, that's about my social awkwardness for the year,

00:30:32

Speaker 1: but I don't actually remember what I said, but I do believe, like you charlotte, it was in some kind of cheeky form and it probably would have been something like, you know, any other guesses because my answer is actually, I just wanted to live a sober life and see what that was like. There was no traumatic event or thing or

00:30:51

Speaker 1: condition that has caused me to be sober

00:30:54

Speaker 1: and I do think that that is a, it's a fine answer to give is to just let someone know, nope, I just wanted to try it, nope, this was just a decision I made in my life

00:31:04

Speaker 1: where I can feel the etiquette advice coming in is in that desire to tell someone. Do you just, do you realize how rude that question you just asked is and to really hold yourself back from doing that because it does create more awkwardness and especially if you're at someone's wedding or an event that's celebrating someone else, I think you don't want to invite

00:31:28

Speaker 2: the

00:31:29

Speaker 1: potential argument that could come or the potential conflict or, or awkward conversation that could follow from that even though this person stepped in with awkwardness to begin with. I think in those situations where you're celebrating someone else just keeping it really simple and clear is really good and just letting this

00:31:48

Speaker 1: person go off and be who they are is worth it

00:31:52

Speaker 1: when it's a moment where you might have a chance to actually tell someone a little bit more or maybe, you know that they mean Well, and they just kind of put their foot in their mouth in this case, that's when I might be willing to go a little bit further with someone and say,

00:32:08

Speaker 1: you know, I've learned in my sobriety to actually be really careful about pre guessing what someone's reason is or to ask people what their reason for sobriety is because it turns out a lot of people don't always want to discuss it. Some people are really open about it, but not everyone. And so for me, it's something that I tend to let people volunteer on their own if they want to share it rather than than ask directly.

00:32:33

Speaker 1: Um, but that's only if you really feel you've got the ability and it feels like the right time and place to have that kind of a conversation. But I do think approaching it from that, you know, one thing I've learned during my sobriety

00:32:45

Speaker 1: is that actually not finding out why people chose to be sober as a polite thing.

00:32:50

Speaker 2: Like I love that sample script there and there are a couple of different reasons. I love it. one

00:32:56

Speaker 2: I feel like it connects your response to the inappropriate question that they're asking, but in a way that's not

00:33:04

Speaker 2: that's not too much

00:33:06

Speaker 2: because you're acknowledging your, you're still responding in the context of the question too though, you're, you're, you're saying something I've learned in my sobriety is something they're asking about your sobriety, your decision making or

00:33:18

Speaker 2: or something like that and

00:33:21

Speaker 2: you've now sort of taken that you've shifted the context a little bit, but you're still living in the space of that question. And I think it's a really, I think that's a really gentle and appropriate response Lizzy. And I think you've also done some good work in your answer

00:33:37

Speaker 2: getting into a counterintuitive thought, which is that it's often times

00:33:41

Speaker 2: easier or not just easier, but more appropriate to correct someone's etiquette. And we say you have got to be so careful when you're doing that

00:33:49

Speaker 2: when the infraction is a little smaller and you're a little closer to them

00:33:53

Speaker 1: if it's

00:33:53

Speaker 2: someone who, you know a little better and it's not so egregious, it's a little easier to still live in that space of the question and let them know what

00:34:03

Speaker 2: what potentially damaging

00:34:06

Speaker 2: language they're using or just how how how inappropriate, how potentially rude what they just asked is,

00:34:12

Speaker 2: whereas sort of counterintuitively, the more egregious, that mistake, the less familiar you are with the person asking it,

00:34:20

Speaker 2: the harder it is to get into that corrective and really helpful reply that lets someone know how potentially rude what they just did was. And I think that's it's not always obvious when you're thinking about this sort of thing, but it's it's often the reality.

00:34:36

Speaker 2: The other thing I liked about your sample scripts is your first sample script is so naturally lizzie post and it's the way you say, nope, and

00:34:45

Speaker 2: it is that good humor, That cheeky good humor, but also firm,

00:34:50

Speaker 2: nope. And then whatever follows it is, is

00:34:54

Speaker 2: is whatever the reason is that you are willing to share or however much information you are willing to share at that moment. But to me it's a, it's a nice balance between a little bit cheeky, but also

00:35:06

Speaker 2: short enough that it that it sends the message that come on, Why are you asking that here of all places?

00:35:14

Speaker 2: And I think that's also appropriate, particularly if you're dealing with that more egregious version from someone who you're not as close to socially?

00:35:22

Speaker 1: You know, it's dicey territory whenever you want to get a little bit cheeky, you've got to recognize that, that your cheekiness, even though it's coming from someone else offending you or being inappropriate,

00:35:33

Speaker 1: it's you firing back with a little bit of that ingredient to and so it's, it's, it's important to remember that it's,

00:35:40

Speaker 1: it's not always the most polite, but it does get noticed any other guesses. Like, I don't

00:35:48

Speaker 2: know

00:35:49

Speaker 1: when someone's really like, do you have a problem with it, do you need to lose weight? Are you pregnant?

00:35:55

Speaker 1: Would you like to keep guessing? There could be other reasons like, come on,

00:36:00

Speaker 1: but it is, it's, it's tough in those moments, especially when you do have a cheeky sense of humor, like charlotte admits to,

00:36:06

Speaker 2: I hear what you're saying. There's something in the question that was a little thread that I think is worth pulling on also, which is charlotte's instinct that I'm comfortable with, the cheeky reply, but some of these just don't feel right to me,

00:36:19

Speaker 2: and I think that oftentimes that's the good test for a cheeky reply. I think you want to listen to that little intuitive voice inside you that says this isn't as funny as it feels inside my own head when I start to say it out loud, and

00:36:33

Speaker 2: I think those are important things to listen to when you're

00:36:37

Speaker 2: in that liminal, is this route? Is this appropriate or not space and trusting your instinct and trusting yourself when you say that doesn't sound quite right, Okay, well maybe that's not the right kind of humor to be applying here. Um but then also listening to that voice that says, I think I I think I got this one

00:36:55

Speaker 1: charlotte, congratulations on your year and a half of sobriety. We certainly hope that our answer helps both your cheeky self and your sincere self as you approach all the fun summer, entertaining. That's about to begin. Well, she started it. Some of us don't feel the same about drinking as she does, and she knows it,

00:37:12

Speaker 1: she's just trying to find an excuse to tell us what we ought to do. Oh, you make me so mad, I guess what you mean, you don't get mad, I didn't really mean to hurt your feelings. You see it one way and I see another.

00:37:28

Speaker 1: Our next question is titled pondering profanity, something I do often.

00:37:32

Speaker 1: Hello, lizzie and dan. I've been a listener for a while now and I have a question about profanity. I'm curious to discuss a more in depth look at this topic from your perspective,

00:37:43

Speaker 1: my question is what is the etiquette around swearing or using profanity? I know generally it's considered offensive and should be avoided, but I've worked at several places where it's commonplace and even in one place where it was almost encouraged as an alternative to speaking intelligently.

00:38:03

Speaker 1: I was told at this job and this is a direct quote quote, don't use a $10 word when a 50 cent word will do, exclamation point end quote.

00:38:14

Speaker 1: This was in direct response to me speaking to the manager about the work I had done that day. The manager was talking about using intelligent speech, but he was also reinforcing the practice in that industry and that specific company of sprinkling your highbrow speech with profanity in order to fit in.

00:38:34

Speaker 1: I work in the railroad industry as a signalman or signal maintainer. Now

00:38:39

Speaker 1: it's a male dominated industry and it's a relaxed atmosphere outside of the official shift briefings and dealings with

00:38:46

Speaker 2: managers.

00:38:48

Speaker 1: Everyone in my department swears frequently and I've fallen into using that language as well? Building on my initial question should profanity be avoided across the board or are there may be situations in workplace settings where it may be acceptable from a situational standpoint, even if it's not acceptable from a general etiquette standpoint,

00:39:08

Speaker 1: sincerely befuddled signal maintainer.

00:39:11

Speaker 2: Befuddled signal maintainer. Thank you for this question. What a great professional etiquette question

00:39:17

Speaker 1: isn't it?

00:39:18

Speaker 2: And I want to start off with a very direct answer. It is absolutely acceptable to use profanity situationally and in circumstances, even professional circumstances

00:39:31

Speaker 2: where

00:39:32

Speaker 2: you would definitely not be using that same language from a general etiquette standpoint. One of the sort of most classic examples that I could think of of the time when it would be appropriate, is when a manager or supervisor has specifically told you that it's ok and even preferable to use that language, that that's part of

00:39:52

Speaker 2: the way the industry, the profession that you're working in functions.

00:39:57

Speaker 2: And

00:39:58

Speaker 2: I think that there's another etiquette question about how you

00:40:02

Speaker 2: affect change in your workplace, if you're not comfortable with that, how you talk to managers about culture in a job and how you can change that culture, how you can influence it if not change it.

00:40:13

Speaker 2: But I also think it's really wise to listen to the people that have worked somewhere for a long time and it's particularly wise to listen to the people that supervise you directly and it's not that you

00:40:25

Speaker 2: take off your net of discernment and just blindly do everything and anything that a supervisor tells you to do. You think about the context and the situation you think more broadly about who

00:40:36

Speaker 2: that person supervisor might be and whether they would agree with what the supervisor is telling you. There are all kinds of considerations that come into play. But

00:40:44

Speaker 2: it sounds like this person went out of their way to specifically talk to you about

00:40:50

Speaker 2: it being ok and even preferable.

00:40:53

Speaker 2: I also just really want to applaud you for your thinking about

00:40:58

Speaker 2: whether or not this translates into other situations, how you function, transitioning back and forth between places, maybe even within your work life where it's

00:41:08

Speaker 2: common. Regular. Okay, preferable in places where it would really be inappropriate because there are

00:41:14

Speaker 2: not just general etiquette guidelines, but also cultural and social guidelines that say a lot of this language is really inappropriate other places. I also think that it's worth mentioning that not all profanity is created equal and there are some words, phrases, concepts that

00:41:35

Speaker 2: sound like an exclamation point to one person and to someone else are deeply, deeply offensive. And if you're talking about something like that, where it's not just about adopting a new language that you need to get used to, but something that makes you

00:41:51

Speaker 2: really uncomfortable on a personal level is something that's worth thinking about. And

00:41:57

Speaker 2: I think that it's worth thinking about it very seriously because it might be the kind of thing that you can't change and if you

00:42:03

Speaker 2: I really can't tolerate it, it's going to mean that there's a whole different set of actions and of course of, of choices in front of you, but you want to make that choice in a really serious way. It might mean that you can't do the job or that you're needing to push for changes at that job that are going to be hard for people that you work with

00:42:21

Speaker 2: and those are both courses of action that you really want to be secure and sure of yourself before you take.

00:42:29

Speaker 1: I also think it's important to recognize that just as your manager had said in that direct quote that there are $10 words and 50 cent words, not all of those 50 cent words have to be swear words or profanity for them to be effective. 50% words or 50 cent words. Excuse me.

00:42:48

Speaker 1: And I think that's an important thing to realize. I was always so impressed

00:42:53

Speaker 1: by a friend um my friend Bill from my shall we say my downtown years, the years where I lived on the main strip of Church street in Burlington and was often up until four or 58 o'clock in the morning

00:43:07

Speaker 1: and I was just blown away when after having known Bill for well over a year, he was someone that I knew in my college days through a bowling class. Uvm he actually said to me, I actually don't swear,

00:43:22

Speaker 1: I had never noticed it. We partied together, We spoke very casually to one another all the time. Um whether it was across the ping pong table or out at a bar restaurant for the evening, it was really cool to

00:43:39

Speaker 1: realized that he actually didn't swear and then pay attention to it afterwards.

00:43:44

Speaker 1: There was no camaraderie lost because he didn't swear. He wasn't like in a position of sounding fancier or better than anybody else because he didn't swear. It was literally something I didn't notice about him until he pointed it out to me.

00:44:02

Speaker 1: And so if you're not interested in participating in the profanity that's being encouraged at work,

00:44:08

Speaker 1: I still think that you can find those dollar and 50 cent words to use that can maybe give more the impression that your manager was speaking about rather than feeling like you have to use swear words or profanity in order to achieve what your manager is recommending as

00:44:27

Speaker 1: conversational at the workplace, you know?

00:44:30

Speaker 2: Absolutely. It's such a good reminder. Was a post that there are lots of options for ways to dial down your your speech in the way you present into more casual informal

00:44:43

Speaker 2: territory without

00:44:45

Speaker 2: necessarily crossing lines about profanity in your own mind that you may or may not want to

00:44:49

Speaker 1: dan. Did you ever know that for a while there was a joke around the Emily post institute when we had a much bigger team that friday's was expletive friday,

00:45:00

Speaker 1: it was it was a really fun joke that we had at one point with one of our pr people, but it was funny, we decided that that friday's we're going to be exploited Fridays,

00:45:10

Speaker 2: maybe I arrived and people realized how uncomfortable that would make me and it went away.

00:45:15

Speaker 1: Oh don't you don't you feign, like you've got a pristine mouth, my friend, I will also pull back the curtain and say, you know, I really appreciated your point about time and place. Makes such a big difference, camaraderie and Crew makes such a big difference. Um you and I have plenty of expletive laden conversations together, where it's

00:45:35

Speaker 1: not because either of us are mad at each other, but it's just very casual language and um we would never have those conversations with a client or in the middle of a of a presentation or you know, we don't swear on this podcast.

00:45:51

Speaker 1: So it's I think it is just really important to recognize that

00:45:56

Speaker 1: time and place. Code switching between them is really, really common for everybody to be thinking about engaging with. Can I make a call out to, because I would love to hear from audience members about their swearing habits and where they notice themselves changing their language or even folks who don't swear at all, how they

00:46:15

Speaker 1: might have found ways to fit in without

00:46:18

Speaker 1: making profanity, the commonality or the thing you're bonding over in speech. You know,

00:46:25

Speaker 2: I'm working on this one, I have to watch myself around my kids

00:46:29

Speaker 2: and there's a family version of this question where you might carve out a space that's really a much safer space for little ears and

00:46:41

Speaker 2: you have to remember and and track and pay attention to not just how you're feeling, but how, how the space around you is feeling.

00:46:49

Speaker 2: Another thought that whenever I think about profanity and lessons that I've learned over my life, I remember an experience I had as a child, which was one of the few times my father got really mad at me and I used a word and it wasn't the word itself, it was how I used it.

00:47:08

Speaker 2: It was and and not in terms of the how graphic it was, but it was the intention behind what I said. And it sounded mean to him and it sounded dismissive of things that he thought were important in ways that that made him upset, that that made him angry. And

00:47:26

Speaker 2: it was so rare that I did things that really angered my parents where they said to me that is not okay, I don't want you doing that. And,

00:47:34

Speaker 2: and and this was, it was profanity was around the use of, of words in ways that that really made them uncomfortable. And it taught me a lesson that, that it's not just about kids, it's about all the people in your life and it's worth paying attention to and I appreciate our befuddled signal maintainer asking these questions and wondering about how to draw those lines and how to shift and move them in ways that are appropriate to give us access to these words and this type of speech when it's helpful and useful but also are considerate of others.

00:48:06

Speaker 1: Befuddled signal maintainer, thank you so much for this question. We could probably fill an entire show with an answer for it, but we do hope that our answer helps and please write into us, tell us what you decide for your own personal use at work. We'd love to hear a follow up.

00:48:22

Speaker 1: Yeah. Who says so? I dare you to come down here and say that.

00:48:33

Speaker 1: Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates your feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette Emily Post dot com or leave a voicemail or text at 802858 kind that's 8028585463. Or you can reach us on social media on twitter.

00:48:48

Speaker 1: We

00:48:49

Speaker 2: are at Emily Post

00:48:50

Speaker 1: install on instagram, we are at Emily Post institute and on facebook

00:48:54

Speaker 2: were awesome etiquette.

00:48:55

Speaker 1: Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette

00:48:57

Speaker 2: with your social

00:48:58

Speaker 1: media posts so that we know

00:48:59

Speaker 2: you want your question on the show.

00:49:08

Speaker 2: If you enjoy awesome etiquette, please consider becoming a sustaining member. You can find out more about this by visiting us at Patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette. You'll get an ads free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content plus you'll feel great knowing that you helped to keep awesome etiquette on the air

00:49:26

Speaker 2: and to those of you who are already sustaining members. Thank you so much for your support.

00:49:32

Speaker 1: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer in the topics we cover. And today we had two recommendations from listeners after hearing episode 392 and our little chat about gilded age,

00:49:46

Speaker 1: the HBO series. I know and we actually, we've had other requests for more detailed etiquette from that time and

00:49:55

Speaker 1: I'm working on it, but we actually are etiquette is post um not our name, but after the gilded age and therefore it actually all predates Emily post. And so um some of it I'm picking up through having read the biography and and some of it I'm curious about and I've been buying some books on so

00:50:15

Speaker 1: I'm hoping to be able to explore a little bit more with folks. But I love these recommendations that came in dan. Do you want to read them both for us?

00:50:23

Speaker 2: I would love

00:50:24

Speaker 1: to Good

00:50:26

Speaker 2: evening Daniel and lizzie in reply to lizzie requesting more shows happening in the gilded age during your awesome etiquette, episode 3 92.

00:50:35

Speaker 2: I would like to recommend Murdoch mysteries. It's a detective series which is set in the late 18 hundreds and early 19 hundreds. Please note that the first few episodes from season one aren't the best but still worth watching. I hope to hear about lizzie's thoughts on the show. I hope you have a wonderful weekend, sincerely an etiquette fan

00:50:54

Speaker 1: etiquette fan. This is music to my ears because I have not yet braved the mud season and the, the chilly weather that is still enveloping Vermont to go out on my runs and that means I am on a treadmill with my little

00:51:06

Speaker 1: ipad mini and I'm watching shows while I walk on my treadmill and so I am very excited to have a new series to watch. Thank you so much for your suggestion.

00:51:18

Speaker 2: Next we hear hi lizzie, I just started listening to the most recent episode where you mentioned the Gilded age like you. I am in love with this series as I was trying to figure out where many of the scenes were filmed. Fun fact, many are the old Newport's mansions you can visit.

00:51:33

Speaker 2: I came across a podcast on the gilded Age that I have completely fallen in love with.

00:51:38

Speaker 2: It's called The Gilded Gentleman. I highly recommend it to you or anyone who enjoys reading about this era. Best regards Leslie Heinrich.

00:51:48

Speaker 1: Leslie. I geeked out and squealed when I saw your email come into awesome etiquette because the gilded Gentleman is actually a podcast we are familiar with. It is hosted by Carl Raymond who used to work at harpercollins and managed long term brand partnerships for instance, like the one we had and so he actually managed Emily Post sort of

00:52:14

Speaker 1: brand image through the publisher. So it's, it's not like he was on the Emily Post team outside the publisher as a branding coordinator, but he he was at the publisher at harpercollins doing this and he managed it through the 75th anniversary, which was really exciting. And when he found out that we were doing the 100th anniversary, he called up and said, I've got this podcast, you've got to be on called The Gilded Gentleman

00:52:39

Speaker 1: actually, it's much more like eloquent and gracious than that, but it was so exciting to connect with him to hear about his show. It is excellent, it's well researched which is really fun and he he does a really good job diving into this era and often

00:52:55

Speaker 1: looks at things not only in America but also in the gilded age in England and in France. So it's kind of fun to get that international perspective on gilded life as well.

00:53:05

Speaker 1: Um we will be on the gilded Gentleman at some point I believe this summer and then we are going to do an in person event with carl in new york city and we will certainly be posting um event details about that

00:53:18

Speaker 1: When we are actually launching the 20th edition. So I am so incredibly excited that you love and have recommended the gilded gentleman

00:53:26

Speaker 1: I can't recommend it highly enough to our other listeners if you're interested in this area. I, myself and listening, it's just really fun

00:53:35

Speaker 2: day tuned more to come,

00:53:37

Speaker 1: thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please keep them coming. You can send your feedback or update two awesome etiquette Emily post dot com or leave us a voicemail or text at 802858. Kind. That's 8028585463.

00:53:58

Speaker 2: It's time for our post script segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette and today we're going to hear about Emily writing the 1922 edition of etiquette. This of course, comes from laura Claridge's Biography of Emily Post, Daughter of the Gilded age, Mistress of american manners, which is available from your favorite book seller.

00:54:17

Speaker 2: We're going to begin on page 249.

00:54:20

Speaker 1: Yes and Dan, I am going to skip around a little bit just because claridges so excellent about bringing in other aspects of history that sometimes the the flow of what Emily is up to gets a little broken up. So this is a bit pieced together if you all will bear with me, but we do begin on page 2 49

00:54:38

Speaker 1: In the summer of 1920. So remember, this is right after the right after the 1918 pandemic, with no travels to distract her and no book proposal languishing on a publisher's desk. She would compose a book about how to behave,

00:54:55

Speaker 1: seated on a high stool in front of her father's drafting table. She, in effect wrote from and of her own life.

00:55:03

Speaker 1: Her reaching out for advice would prove one of the few avenues by which she socialized, otherwise cutting off society of every ilk more resolutely and severely than she'd ever done before, humble enough to realize that she lacked expertise in this area or that

00:55:22

Speaker 1: she occasionally embarrassed herself with her enthusiasm

00:55:26

Speaker 1: So carried away that she grilled everyone around her to supplement her own knowledge. A substantial portion of etiquette came from Emily's polling of friends, family, even customers waiting for taxis and Dan, you know, I love that because any of my friends know that during the writing of the night of the 2022 edition,

00:55:48

Speaker 1: I was calling, hey, you're involved with this. Do you ever see this? Do you ever do that? Like what's going on with this? I feel like it's very much so continued in the Emily post tradition, carrying on

00:56:00

Speaker 1: never a slouch. She now worked nonstop every day. But sunday first she reviewed mrs john mary Sherwood's etiquette book, which josephine had reared her on.

00:56:14

Speaker 1: That would be a really good book for folks interested in the gilded age to check out because mrs john Sherwood or merry Sherwood

00:56:21

Speaker 1: really did have the guide that everybody, everybody used

00:56:25

Speaker 1: next. She made herself read the brand new version of the out of date. Emily holt book, reading others compendiums of everything from table settings to funeral services. Emily quickly realized

00:56:40

Speaker 1: she needed a more elaborate filing system than she'd used for her novels or even for her road trip

00:56:47

Speaker 1: to organize such an expansive project, she spent weeks devising categories for the subject she would discuss. Next she thumb tacked rows of cards across one entire wall of her home office, positioning new research under the appropriate heading, weddings, introductions, traveling

00:57:07

Speaker 1: cards, and visits

00:57:09

Speaker 1: correspondence. The debutante organizing, cataloging, sequencing, designing, constructing, teaching. She was performing the tasks she excelled at, and she was satisfied when she had a job in hand. She was like a bird dog on a scent. Her son ned remembered

00:57:27

Speaker 1: Emily's panoramic vision of her subject contained advice that today would come from a marriage counselor, psychologist, dr or fashion consultant.

00:57:38

Speaker 1: Several of the resultant 38 chapters, such as fundamentals of good behavior consisted of a mere five pages. Others including balls and dances required 26

00:57:50

Speaker 1: Emily signed her contract with funk and Wagnalls on January 27, 1922. The book, written in Longhand had taken a year and a half of almost nonstop work,

00:58:03

Speaker 1: though her friends still complained that she was rarely available for lunches at the Colony Club. Emily no longer even tried to make excuses for putting her profession first, she had become convinced that there was not enough sustenance in her old way of life for her to ever return to it or to be the person she had assumed

00:58:25

Speaker 1: As a young wife, she had to be,

00:58:28

Speaker 1: Even the packaging of the Royal Blue etiquette reassured while it motivated striking a fine balance between contentment and desire illustrated with private photographs and facsimiles of social forms. It's 250,000 words required. 627 pages.

00:58:48

Speaker 1: The unadorned title etiquette and the name Emily Post stand alone on a dark blue case. Both are printed in a gold art deco font. The up to the moment aesthetic, cleverly offsetting the potential stuffiness of the subject.

00:59:05

Speaker 1: The books long subtitle in society, in business, in politics and at home was wisely relegated to the pages inside

00:59:14

Speaker 1: Etiquette was published in July of 1922. It costs a hefty $4 approximately $44 today.

00:59:22

Speaker 1: According to an account Emily gave years later, rival publishers pronounced her book to full of footmen to be successful. A prediction quickly proven wrong when they're stenographers rushed to buy the volume within weeks of its debut

00:59:40

Speaker 1: during the subsequent four decades, Emily would revise etiquette. Its subtitle changed after the first edition to the blue book of social usage

00:59:49

Speaker 2: 10

00:59:50

Speaker 1: times

00:59:52

Speaker 1: because we're up to three. We were now on three revisions that again

00:59:57

Speaker 2: got seven more.

00:59:58

Speaker 1: I think you do my gosh, 35 more years ago. I don't know because I want to retire before that.

01:00:06

Speaker 1: It was so awesome to read this particular section of

01:00:11

Speaker 2: Medicaid. I mean to

01:00:14

Speaker 1: you to I mean like just hearing it, it's it's so

01:00:18

Speaker 1: relevant. I mean we are literally right now working with the publisher on which I've got pantone chips sitting in front of me. Those are little colored chips with numbers on them telling me what different shades of blue we might choose for this particular book and picturing all the cards that she tacked up with, the organizational structure and I mean we got the idea from Emily, we use it because it works and it it is exactly how we created this particular book. It was so much fun to see the similarities

01:00:49

Speaker 1: um 100 years later that that a family could have you think maybe it's in our genes, even though, you know, logically it's not

01:00:57

Speaker 2: well so much from that reading I'm connecting with in this moment for all the obvious reasons and the question that is immediately before you and I about the cover I think is well informed by laura claridge's language, the subtitle wisely relegated to the inner part of the book and the description of that

01:01:19

Speaker 2: that font, the picture of the word etiquette being that art deco font and the incredible work that you and the book designer have done

01:01:28

Speaker 2: to make a really substantial thought for the title of this book I think is it's it's just so affirming it's just really nice to hear.

01:01:35

Speaker 1: It was especially cool. We literally just this like yesterday I had the conversation with the designer and with our editor that they too, after seeing after really spending some time with the original edition

01:01:48

Speaker 1: that that they too want to keep this book as iconic looking as possible. And they stripped everything off the cover except the title,

01:01:57

Speaker 1: Emily's name. Our names. And we are debating about whether we put a centennial edition on the cover or just the spine and

01:02:04

Speaker 1: seeing those 1st 1st drafts of what the cover will look like and the beautiful work that our designer, lizzie Allen did to create the font from the original font that is on the book is just, it really did bring a tear to my eye. And I'm so excited that this is our celebratory edition. I'm so excited that this is

01:02:25

Speaker 1: who we've worked with on it and that it's this this vision has really come to life once again, 100 years later. It's just it's I am delighted and it's really cool to think back to Emily in the moments that she was probably getting her first crack at looking at the cover and

01:02:42

Speaker 1: how beautiful and simplistic it was and how it was a fan of design. She must have just loved that, you know what I mean? And I'm also

01:02:50

Speaker 2: curious that there's the book as artifact and there's also the book in its cultural moment

01:02:55

Speaker 2: and the fact that her publisher,

01:02:58

Speaker 2: I was saying to her or or the competing publishers were saying just too many footmen in this and

01:03:04

Speaker 1: with

01:03:05

Speaker 2: with the interest in the gilded age that we're seeing currently coming out of the feedback that we just did about the gilded age. I'm thinking very much about her as this transitional figure, this interpreter of those old world manners for an emerging

01:03:18

Speaker 2: modern world and emerging world of youth and youth culture and the roaring 20s into the

01:03:27

Speaker 2: the world changed by the Great War. And the similarity to a moment that we're in now, where people are wondering what of

01:03:37

Speaker 2: the manners from the previous century are going to be applicable and translatable to the century that we're living in now.

01:03:45

Speaker 1: Yeah, the Before times to the Now Times as we go through such a great transition, hopefully right now. Yeah.

01:03:53

Speaker 2: And I think that

01:03:54

Speaker 2: I will take heart from the stenographers running out to get their copies because I I do think we live in a world that's still looking for

01:04:03

Speaker 2: ways to carry forward what's good and to do it with good humor and good intentions. So, you know, let's

01:04:10

Speaker 2: let's take some inspiration both from Emily and from laura Claridge and her understanding of what Emily meant.

01:04:15

Speaker 1: Absolutely! Thank you so much for diving into this section with me. It felt so incredibly relevant and I love getting to share it with our audience.

01:04:25

Speaker 1: Oh, gee, I can't do that. I need you to help me with my manners.

01:04:33

Speaker 1: We like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world and that can come in so many forms and today we have a salute from a grateful new mom

01:04:44

Speaker 2: dear lizzie and dan. I would like to give an etiquette salute to my mother A little over a year ago I became a mom myself

01:04:52

Speaker 2: and this has been an extremely challenging transition for me

01:04:55

Speaker 2: to say the least.

01:04:56

Speaker 2: My amazing mother has come to help me every single Wednesday since the birth of our daughter the day before her visit. She always texts to ask what items she can add to her shopping list for us. Groceries, snacks, treats, baby supplies, anything.

01:05:10

Speaker 2: She often asks what sounds good for lunch, collects the groceries and prepares a meal that we can share together

01:05:16

Speaker 2: the morning of her visit. She texts to ask how the night went and if a nice coffee drink from our favorite shop would be appreciated

01:05:23

Speaker 2: though. She has a key to our house. She always texts when she arrives to let us know before letting herself in

01:05:29

Speaker 2: and if all that weren't enough, she entertains are now toddler for a whole day so that we can get our work done.

01:05:36

Speaker 2: She even offers to stay beyond the workday so that we can squeeze in a quick trip to the gym.

01:05:41

Speaker 2: Now realizing just how tough it is to be fully responsible for a helpless human being. I couldn't be more grateful for her help and consideration and care during this time,

01:05:52

Speaker 2: If my own daughter chooses to have Children one day, I know how I can pay it forward.

01:05:58

Speaker 2: This is how you help a new mom.

01:06:00

Speaker 2: Thanks for a great show, sincerely grateful. New mom

01:06:05

Speaker 1: grateful new mom. That is such a heartwarming tale to hear. I know a lot of a lot of grandma slash moms would love to be able to and can't do that kind of care but for the ones that can That is so incredible.

01:06:20

Speaker 1: Just really thoughtful. I love how even though you're as close as mom and daughter, there's the text message that you've arrived and the

01:06:28

Speaker 1: the extra added stay at the end of the day so that you might be able to go do something outside melted. You know because I was right there with you. It's so got me, I was like wow. Like as if the groceries in the exactly as she says. If all that weren't enough. Like she also does this,

01:06:50

Speaker 1: that grateful new Mom. We can hear your gratitude and that is truly a beautiful salute. Thank you so much for submitting it.

01:06:57

Speaker 2: Grateful new Mom from a grateful new dad. I really hope that all of the grandparents of little William are listening to this because they have all been such a big help And I want to add,

01:07:07

Speaker 2: I don't want to add to your salute because your salute stands on its own. But I hope they hear it and understand the message.

01:07:13

Speaker 2: Thank you so much for this salute.

01:07:16

Speaker 2: Mm hmm

01:07:18

Speaker 1: And thank you so much for listening.

01:07:21

Speaker 2: And thank you to everyone who sent us something. It really does make this show happen. And thank you to everyone who supports us on Patreon.

01:07:27

Speaker 1: Please connect with us and share this show with your friends, family and coworkers on social media or however you love to share podcasts,

01:07:36

Speaker 2: you can send us your next question feedback or salute by email to awesome etiquette. Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463

01:07:49

Speaker 2: on twitter. We are at Emily Post inst on instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute and on facebook we are awesome etiquette and the Emily Post Institute.

01:07:58

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01:08:07

Speaker 1: You can also subscribe to the ads version of our show on Spotify or your favorite podcast app and please wherever however you listen, consider

01:08:16

Speaker 2: leaving us a

01:08:17

Speaker 1: review. It helps our show ranking which helps more people find awesome etiquette.

01:08:22

Speaker 2: Our show is edited by Kris Albertine and Assistant produced by Bridget Dowd.

01:08:26

Speaker 2: Thanks Bridget.

01:08:36

Speaker 2: Mhm