Episode 397 - Thinking Forward

00:00:04

Speaker 1: maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social courtesy. That's old fashioned

00:00:16

Speaker 2: act as host and hostess, they know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person, real friendliness. Hello and welcome to awesome etiquette where

00:00:28

Speaker 1: we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty.

00:00:33

Speaker 2: On today's show, we take your questions on being asked to share the cost of a trip after it's ended

00:00:39

Speaker 2: baby registries and old friends, family members who don't take care of your cookware and out of towners asking for tourism advice when they're visiting for a funeral for

00:00:50

Speaker 1: awesome etiquette sustaining members. Our question of the week is about handshakes after

00:00:54

Speaker 2: Covid

00:00:55

Speaker 2: plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a postscript on the post script from our new book.

00:01:01

Speaker 1: All that's coming up,

00:01:05

Speaker 1: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute. I'm lizzie Post

00:01:12

Speaker 2: and I'm dan post Senning,

00:01:13

Speaker 1: hey, it's been a while since yesterday afternoon.

00:01:20

Speaker 2: That's your fanfare.

00:01:22

Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well congratulations to you to both of us for actually getting the book in sort of on time. I missed the Fedex deadline, but we are going to get it to them

00:01:33

Speaker 1: this this week. It's good. It's good. It's good. The little deadline, you know, lover in me is sad, but the fact that our book is actually in, it's pretty complete, edited stage at this point is really exciting and a little terrifying.

00:01:48

Speaker 2: I know exactly how you feel. I was feeling a surprising amount of anxiety towards the end of the week and through the beginning of this, this last weekend,

00:01:58

Speaker 2: and when I really sat with it letting go of a project like this, sort of,

00:02:04

Speaker 2: calling it complete or at least your major contribution to it. There will be some little details as you mentioned, that are that are going to continue to

00:02:11

Speaker 2: unfold or be processed. But

00:02:14

Speaker 2: the bulk of our work on the 20th edition, the 100th anniversary of Emily Post etiquette is complete.

00:02:20

Speaker 1: It's it's pretty incredible. I can remember times before we even got the writing done where

00:02:27

Speaker 1: almost to psych myself up for the writing, we were saying things like, oh my gosh, like, you know, just think six months from now, the book will be written and you'll be like, in the major editing mode or then a year and a half from now this this book will actually, like, you'll see the illustrations in it, and it'll have a cover and all that, and we're standing at that point now and that's

00:02:47

Speaker 1: it's exciting. Time. Time really does move things forward and if you keep up with it, you know, the projects get done.

00:02:54

Speaker 1: Um but it was an exciting and exciting moment finishing up this particular round, although I already have, like, at least one or two things that I want to email to the 10 speed team and be like, wait, don't forget to add this, I'm so sorry, please, I'm

00:03:09

Speaker 2: sure, and I will appear in your mother's voice and remind you and myself

00:03:16

Speaker 2: with a book like this. You, you won't ever have gotten everything. It's just when you're approaching something and you're trying to be comprehensive and you're trying to be comprehensive about all of life and you have a page limit.

00:03:29

Speaker 1: Yes.

00:03:30

Speaker 2: Those are real limitations.

00:03:32

Speaker 1: It's true. It's true. It's very, very true. But I am really happy for the work that we've been doing on it and excited to see, see it actually get released later this year. It's this is this is good. This is good. We're moving it along

00:03:46

Speaker 1: and then we can move on to all the other projects that we have to

00:03:48

Speaker 2: do. Absolutely. Although just for this easter sunday we'll take a deep breath and relax

00:03:56

Speaker 1: and get to some questions

00:03:58

Speaker 2: and get to some questions.

00:04:00

Speaker 2: Let's do it.

00:04:04

Speaker 2: Awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions. You can email them to awesome etiquette at the Emily Post dot com. Leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463. You can also reach us on social media on twitter. We are at Emily Post on instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute

00:04:24

Speaker 2: and on facebook were awesome etiquette. Just remember use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the show.

00:04:41

Speaker 1: Our first question is titled Bed and Breakfast bombshell.

00:04:45

Speaker 1: Dear lizzie and dan. I've been a fan of the podcast for a little over a year now and have enjoyed hearing your great advice and sample scripts. I recently found myself in a tricky situation and though it's now behind me, I was wondering if you would have handled it differently and if you have any advice on how to avoid this problem in

00:05:02

Speaker 2: the future.

00:05:03

Speaker 1: A couple that my husband and I are friends with invited us to join them at an Airbnb that they had booked.

00:05:10

Speaker 1: They were originally planning to go with a separate pair of friends but the other party couldn't make it and so my husband and I were invited last minute

00:05:18

Speaker 1: at the time of the invitation, there was no mention of payment or reimbursement so we assumed there would be no need to pay them for the weekend. However, at the end of the trip, our friend messaged us very politely asking how we'd like to split the costs and pay them back. The thing is my husband and I are tight on money due to grad school costs and recent car issues.

00:05:40

Speaker 1: We would not have accepted this invitation in the first place if we'd known that it would cost us so much as it was a more expensive Airbnb than we would have booked for ourselves.

00:05:50

Speaker 1: We brought groceries and snacks, cooked dinner and tried to be gracious guests, especially since we believed it to be a generous offer on our friends part.

00:05:58

Speaker 1: We ended up figuring it out and paying them back in smaller installments, but it was still a financial strain we weren't expecting.

00:06:05

Speaker 1: I was wondering if there was a better way to avoid this. We had no hand in planning the trip and no choice in location or lodging. Is there a polite way to ask, are we going to have to pay you back for this trip

00:06:17

Speaker 1: when you're being invited?

00:06:19

Speaker 1: Is it my fault for not clarifying or is that the responsibility of the person issuing the invitation?

00:06:25

Speaker 1: Any advice or sample scripts you have would be greatly appreciated. I'm grateful for all the great etiquette work you do. Thanks anonymous.

00:06:33

Speaker 2: Oh,

00:06:34

Speaker 1: that's a tough spot.

00:06:36

Speaker 2: That is a really awkward situation. And I'm appreciating your willingness to accept some responsibility for the miscommunication and uh,

00:06:47

Speaker 2: work out a solution where

00:06:50

Speaker 2: you paid the share that

00:06:52

Speaker 2: your hosts and I'm going to put that in quotes, we're expecting you to pay

00:06:58

Speaker 2: and, and that you figured out a way that you could do it. And I'm also really appreciating that that wasn't easy and that

00:07:06

Speaker 2: you're thinking ahead about ways to prevent this from happening in the future because it's such an awkward position to be in both in the relationship and financially

00:07:15

Speaker 2: and it's definitely worth thinking about and and not finding yourself there again, I

00:07:21

Speaker 1: have felt that good general guideline for all invitations that involved some kind of a sleepover that isn't in someone's personal home that you asked the question of, you know, like oh, is there a cost or you know, are you guys thinking about splitting the cost of it a certain way?

00:07:40

Speaker 1: You know, asking something about what the cost of the trip would be before you say yes to it that way. Even if they were totally thinking of treating you, then they can say, oh my gosh, don't even worry about it. We, this is like we already had the place rented, no big deal. We just want some friends to come along and the friends we thought we were going to do it with couldn't. So

00:08:00

Speaker 1: it would be so much more fun if you guys came, You know, and you can let the other person tell you that they're treating you. But

00:08:06

Speaker 1: just general guideline not to assume until it's been made clear or you've been able to ask the question,

00:08:14

Speaker 2: I would definitely second that it is never impolite or rude to ask a question if you're not 100% sure, particularly when there's a big price tag associated with it. It shows

00:08:28

Speaker 2: personal responsibility. It shows courtesy to your either hosts or co organizers, whichever role which

00:08:36

Speaker 1: turned out to be

00:08:37

Speaker 2: they're going to be playing. And I also appreciate how you could get caught in a situation like this. We often times talk about well if you were to play the other side of this equation, what would have been the good move for the hosts? Well, you invite very clearly so that you're either inviting and establishing yourself as the host and making it explicit that you plan on bearing the costs for the trip in some way. And what parts of that. Exactly?

00:09:04

Speaker 2: Or you issue your invitation in a way that makes it clear that you're expecting those costs to be split. And it's entirely possible that your hosts weren't thinking clearly and invited you in a way that really gave you the impression that they would be covering those costs and that it wasn't

00:09:20

Speaker 2: a big blooper on your part that you read it that way, that it was, it was really a miscommunication. They were using language that you interpreted one way and that they meant in a very different way.

00:09:31

Speaker 2: It's hard to correct someone else and be sure that that they did it right. And when you get stuck in a situation like that, I jump back to my initial response to this question was I just applaud your willingness to accept some responsibility for that miscommunication, knowing full well that the bulk of that responsibility

00:09:51

Speaker 2: might have squarely landed on their shoulders.

00:09:54

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's on the person inviting. Exactly.

00:09:57

Speaker 1: And because hosts don't always make it clear, it is definitely why it's always worth asking or just double checking and there's, there's nothing rude about doing that or bringing that up

00:10:09

Speaker 1: anonymous. Thank you so much for this question. It's actually got me really excited about summer vacations and maybe getting together with some friends and some places that are in our hometown and it's, it's kind of like pumped me up for the potential of, of going away for long weekends or Airbnb visits coming up.

00:10:28

Speaker 1: Thank you so much for the question.

00:10:31

Speaker 1: What

00:10:33

Speaker 2: do you suppose they'll do with the money? Don't you think they'll divide it among them? That's the fair thing to do and that will be sharing again, won't it?

00:10:45

Speaker 2: Our next question is titled pregnant old pal

00:10:49

Speaker 2: Hi lizzie and dan. I have a question regarding the etiquette of registries.

00:10:54

Speaker 2: Recently I learned through social media that an old friend was expecting her first baby.

00:10:59

Speaker 2: This was a very close friend of mine through all four years of our undergraduate program, though we've almost entirely lost touch over the past 12 years

00:11:08

Speaker 2: as a new mom myself, I felt very excited for her news and it made me want to reconnect and celebrate this special time in her life.

00:11:16

Speaker 2: I reached out to this friend via text message to congratulate her and asked if she might be interested in grabbing a cup of coffee and catching up.

00:11:24

Speaker 2: She was delighted to hear from me and we met up shortly thereafter for a lovely to our conversation over coffee

00:11:32

Speaker 2: by nature. I am a gift giver and it brings me great joy to gift a mom to be with a few thoughtful items or little things that I found to be especially helpful for my baby.

00:11:42

Speaker 2: This is the route I went when selecting a gift from my old friend

00:11:46

Speaker 2: based on our shared history in the art and design field. I was able to select a few things I knew she'd love a poetry book on motherhood, a nicely designed set of baby products I discovered with my own baby and a beautiful swaddle blanket.

00:11:59

Speaker 2: I wondered when it comes to registries that are publicly available online, say through Target or amazon with a quick search of the registrants name. Is it appropriate for an old friend like me to go there and purchase a gift?

00:12:12

Speaker 2: Or is this more personal and really only intended for guests for baby shower or close family and friends.

00:12:19

Speaker 2: Please tell me I'm not the only person who goes online to search for a registry of an old friend for which I have not been invited to an event to celebrate.

00:12:27

Speaker 2: To go a step further. Might this be okay to do for a baby registry? But less appropriate for a wedding registry? Which is certainly a more formal affair.

00:12:36

Speaker 2: I trust that regardless people appreciate being thought of and wished well.

00:12:41

Speaker 2: But this question has crossed my mind on multiple occasions and I had hoped you could settle it once and for all

00:12:47

Speaker 2: our registries just intended for those who receive a direct link or can as well intentioned old pals shop them too

00:12:54

Speaker 2: with gratitude, hesitant gift er

00:12:57

Speaker 1: hesitant gift giver. I I want to applaud your gift giving nature and and the kindness and the generosity and the encouragement and support that you want to bestow on your friend. I'm gonna go really. This was a beautifully laid out question for us and because I'm gonna make very quick work of it I think I think let me know because you are a parent.

00:13:18

Speaker 1: But I think that my advice to hesitant gift giver would be to go with a gift that you're inspired to give them. It could be the thing that worked best for you during those those first few new mom months.

00:13:32

Speaker 1: It could be as she mentioned, she might know that this person would love based on her design, aesthetic things like that.

00:13:39

Speaker 1: But I would go for a personal gift off registry instead of going on the registry. This is news to me that you could go on to just something like an amazon and

00:13:48

Speaker 2: search for

00:13:49

Speaker 1: someone's name and pop up their registry. I knew that you could do it if you had a specific link

00:13:54

Speaker 1: but I was not aware. You could kind of just go and research. So that was news news to me. Other people might that might be much more well known.

00:14:01

Speaker 1: But my thought is go with the personal gift off registry and it's it's never ashamed to reach out to someone and say congratulations on on something that's going on in your life.

00:14:11

Speaker 2: Not at all. And I also applaud and love this

00:14:15

Speaker 2: inspiration, this desire to reconnect and the obvious spirit of generosity here. The

00:14:22

Speaker 2: the idea that I just want to give but I don't want to go too far and I don't want to intrude. And it's such a wise thought to have that you don't want someone to feel like you're entering into a private

00:14:35

Speaker 2: sphere replaced or somewhere where you haven't been invited. And I wish all guests had that level of self awareness. And

00:14:42

Speaker 2: it's a line that I think comes up a lot of places in the online world. We get questions about Zillow and home prices technically that's public information. Anybody can go look at it. And

00:14:54

Speaker 2: the question of whether you do that or not, is it rude? Probably not. Is it rude to search a public registry and look at it? No, probably not.

00:15:04

Speaker 2: But what is the impression it creates or the feeling it creates when a gift from that registry arrives at someone's home. And for me, I would be a surprise to learn that a registry like that was public to begin with. I I wouldn't have known that. And

00:15:20

Speaker 2: even just to avoid that that moment of potential awkwardness, I like your idea of keeping your gift giving thought personal and this is where I I don't know. Maybe if you've seen that registry, maybe it gives you an idea it sends you in a certain direction.

00:15:36

Speaker 2: It gives you some sense of maybe it's a gender of a child or maybe it's a type of gift that you like or something that a parent would would want you to know. But like you lizzie, I I think I would be a little hesitant to just pick items off it and send them. And I feel that hesitancy in this question as well

00:15:56

Speaker 2: from

00:15:57

Speaker 1: hesitant gift giver. Exactly. And we often say

00:16:00

Speaker 2: in etiquette when there's that little discretionary voice that's popping up in your mind saying, is this alright? I'm not quite sure am I crossing a line here?

00:16:08

Speaker 2: Oftentimes our advice is to listen to that voice. To trust that instinct because I think that oftentimes

00:16:15

Speaker 2: that's a version of ourselves that we're in dialogue with for a reason,

00:16:19

Speaker 1: hesitant gift. Er thank you so much for the question and we hope that our answer helps you to be a confident gift er in the future.

00:16:37

Speaker 1: Mm hmm.

00:16:41

Speaker 1: Our next question is titled frying pan, frustration. Hi, dan and lizzie. Congrats dan. On your new edition. I hope you're enjoying many baby snuggles and that's got a little huggy heart emoji.

00:16:53

Speaker 1: I have a question that I'm hoping you can answer a few months ago, my husband's mom and stepdad were staying at our house and kindly made dinner for us, which they often do when they visit.

00:17:04

Speaker 1: I observed him. Stepdad using metal tongs on our best nonstick pan. I asked him to please not use metal in that pan as it ruins the coding to which he replied,

00:17:16

Speaker 2: I'm

00:17:16

Speaker 1: just trying to scrape off the brown bits. I witnessed him doing it again a couple of minutes later but said nothing as I couldn't find tactful language. He did scratch the coating As a side note, we cook a lot and take very good care of our cookware.

00:17:32

Speaker 1: We've had this pan for seven years and it never had a scratch until then

00:17:37

Speaker 1: fast forward a few months and now we have brand new pans which we love. We don't want him to ruin these.

00:17:44

Speaker 1: If they were just visiting for a couple of days, we would probably just put them away and not worry about it.

00:17:49

Speaker 1: The catch is that they are moving back to our city and generously planned to cook for us at our house on a weekly basis. We don't feel like it's a practical solution to hide the pans once a week. Do you have any suggestions for how we could handle this situation? Maybe a sample

00:18:04

Speaker 2: script.

00:18:05

Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your help, frying pan frustration. Ooh,

00:18:11

Speaker 2: I'm taking a deep breath because I have to prepare myself.

00:18:14

Speaker 1: Oh, interesting. Yeah, for this one. This does this hit some reminiscent cords cousin.

00:18:20

Speaker 2: It does and I imagine that there's a version of this question that just about everybody listening to this has a story that they could relate to or a memory or an experience of

00:18:31

Speaker 2: watching someone do something to something of yours and and saying something and watching them fail to really understand what it is that you're asking or maybe fail to execute. Oh yeah, yeah. I'll do better next time and then not do better next time and have exactly the bad result that you had warned about happened.

00:18:50

Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

00:18:52

Speaker 2: I mean, so much of the good advice here is in play and that you said something in the moment and

00:18:59

Speaker 2: I think that's often the first step is to not be incapacitated to wonder if you can say something, it's your home, it's your,

00:19:07

Speaker 2: your cookware, they're your guests as a good host. It's really up to you to guide them to be good guests and that means speaking up and it means saying something and it's oftentimes befuddling when you do that and someone doesn't hear or they don't listen and they're both mistakes for someone else to make.

00:19:29

Speaker 2: I think it would have been okay in this situation for you to persist for you to follow up and say, oh no, no scraping off brown bits is exactly the problem if you do

00:19:39

Speaker 1: that, it'll

00:19:40

Speaker 2: leave a scratch in the pan that makes that coating,

00:19:44

Speaker 2: that ruins the integrity of it. And it can break down very quickly after that or whatever the explanation is.

00:19:50

Speaker 1: Or immediately grab the wooden spoon and hand it to them and say this works just as well. You know, like I don't know that that would be the other route I would go,

00:19:59

Speaker 2: I don't think that's

00:20:00

Speaker 1: that's

00:20:01

Speaker 2: the better route

00:20:02

Speaker 1: because

00:20:03

Speaker 2: you're actually giving them the positive advice with that script, you're saying not just don't do that, but

00:20:09

Speaker 2: you can do what you want to do and this is how you would do it with this thing.

00:20:14

Speaker 2: So once again lizzie, master of sample scripts, thank you. I was going to say that that's the best version of my advice is the be confident in yourself, be direct, continue to address it in the moment. You do have the standing to do it

00:20:30

Speaker 2: and it's really not rude if you follow up if they haven't listened to you or if they haven't paid attention to you and that that gives you the latitude the permission to say that next thing and to say it a third time and 1/4 time and 1/5 time if you have to.

00:20:44

Speaker 1: So because they're going to be more frequent guests again and and cook for you weekly. I can understand you not wanting to have to like switch out your entire cookware while they're there hide a whole bunch of stuff every single week. But I do think that hiding things like the metal tongs or a metal spatula or the types of things that you would use inappropriately in this cookware,

00:21:08

Speaker 1: I would put those things away if you just don't want to deal with it. And then the only options are

00:21:14

Speaker 1: the silicone tongs or the, you know, metal or excuse me, the wooden spoon or the things like that to get at. Things like brown bits, but I would also have the forethought to think of other things that this couple likes to cook for you

00:21:28

Speaker 1: and to think about it proactively if taking direction ends up being really difficult. I'm totally behind everything dan has said, I think you do have standing to mention it and mention it again and again if someone is regularly doing it. But I also think at some point

00:21:45

Speaker 1: not giving them access to the things, it's not a bad idea, it's, it's not, it's not a bad idea. I understand the frying pan frustration, which is what you called yourself

00:21:55

Speaker 1: in the idea of, of taking it away. But again, if you if you can't take the frying pans away, take away some of those implements, that could be the things that might might be frustrating for you.

00:22:06

Speaker 2: I had one other thought that was the, not necessarily quite as direct or quite as confident approach, but might be a very practical approach. And it was in that vein of preparation for the next time and if the practicality of removing metal from the kitchen isn't that practical or

00:22:26

Speaker 2: it's just annoying, you just don't want to be swapping out

00:22:29

Speaker 2: dishware cookware all the time.

00:22:32

Speaker 2: It might be the case where your partner is the good person to talk to

00:22:37

Speaker 2: their parents

00:22:38

Speaker 1: ahead of time

00:22:39

Speaker 2: that it might be easier for them to hear. There might be the option of a kind of language or a kind of approach that they would feel comfortable with before a visit or before the next dinner that's prepared for you

00:22:51

Speaker 2: so that you don't need to be supervising in the kitchen, You don't need to be worrying about it. But because this did happen and it did require a replacement,

00:22:59

Speaker 2: they could use that as the context for bringing it up, mentioning it. We've got some new pans to keep us from needing new pans one more time, asking and making the request that you need to make

00:23:12

Speaker 1: absolutely

00:23:13

Speaker 2: frying pan frustration. We hope that you are not as frustrated the next time your in laws are cooking you a delicious day.

00:23:21

Speaker 2: One of the most important things you can do is to save your waste kitchen fats, bacon, grease, meat drippings, frying fat.

00:23:33

Speaker 1: Yeah,

00:23:41

Speaker 2: our next question is titled memorial service stress.

00:23:45

Speaker 2: Dear dan and lizzie. My mother passed about six months ago and we are in the final process of planning her memorial service.

00:23:52

Speaker 2: We have invited a lot of her friends and family, all of whom will have to fly in for the event which is on a weekend

00:23:58

Speaker 2: an issue I'm running into over and over are people asking me to either arrange some additional event for them to socialize with others

00:24:06

Speaker 2: or asking me for tourism advice or asking to meet us for dinner before or after the event. None of which I want to do have the time for and kind of can't believe they are even asking

00:24:17

Speaker 2: the very un Emily post reply I want to give is something along the lines of I am not a travel agent and you are not paying me so please leave me alone

00:24:26

Speaker 2: or your generation made it to the moon and yet you can't use google or

00:24:31

Speaker 2: do you think anything about this weekend is going to be fun for me then why are you making me sit through another dinner with people I never see and will not be able to be honest in front of

00:24:40

Speaker 2: which I know is nowhere near a sample script lizzie would give.

00:24:44

Speaker 2: Is there a nice way I can tell people to leave me, my father and my brother alone and remind them that this is going to be hard for us and they are not making it any easier.

00:24:54

Speaker 2: Also in future books, can you please remind people when traveling for events like funerals and memorials, they need to be more independent and leave the family alone. Honestly. Given some of the behavior we have dealt with in the last few months, I wish we had never had a service for my mom because it has been nothing but headaches and stress that I don't need at this time,

00:25:14

Speaker 2: Amy

00:25:15

Speaker 1: amy, I'm so sorry for your loss and I'm also so sorry that this is your experience through that loss when trying to process your own grief?

00:25:24

Speaker 1: I think it is very hard to be put upon by others and I just I really want to offer you my sympathy dan. I'm sure you are right there along with me and I'm frankly sure that the whole awesome etiquette audiences here along with you in that support but um I am, I am so sorry for your loss

00:25:42

Speaker 1: dan. You and I were talking yesterday when we had wrapped up the edits to the book on just how good we felt about the hard times chapter because we have all been through a lot of hard times in the past couple of years especially

00:25:56

Speaker 1: but hard times are going to happen to all of us and yet they seem to be a time where a lot of people don't know what to do and don't know what to say.

00:26:04

Speaker 1: And I think that it's often a time where we can also lose a lot of confidence in doing the right thing and I was really glad that we have covered that decently in our book but I do wish like Amy that that we could spread it even further and wider than our books frankly

00:26:20

Speaker 1: because I think it is such helpful advice and the kinds of things Amy is experiencing where

00:26:25

Speaker 1: um she's one of the closest grieving to the person who died really should not be getting asked questions like where do we stay? What do we do while we're in town? Can we do dinner, can we do this? The dinners, I kind of understand some people wanting to go there but not realizing that that would actually be pretty taxing for a lot of people.

00:26:44

Speaker 1: Um you know often the tradition as you bring over food

00:26:47

Speaker 1: and you kind of let people be on their own or decide whether they want to invite people in. That's another part of it. But I am really sad that this is Amy's experience with with grief and and a hard time right now

00:27:00

Speaker 2: there really is no one right answer for how people grieve or how to support someone who is grieving

00:27:07

Speaker 2: and

00:27:08

Speaker 2: because of that

00:27:10

Speaker 2: I just want to say that there's a lot of latitude in terms of how you respond

00:27:15

Speaker 2: and

00:27:16

Speaker 2: the when I think about dealing with this situation and the most effective ways to deal with it given that it's happening like you lizzie, I wish I could wave an etiquette magic wand and educate the people that are coming about the potential burden that they can be or the imposition that it can cause if they don't respect some

00:27:36

Speaker 2: what you would think of as very clear lines around privacy and just even

00:27:40

Speaker 2: host guest expectations but not being able to do that and really only being able to control the response. I wanna reassure Amy that it's okay to just say no to anything and that as long as your tone isn't vindictive or spiteful or mean that you can

00:27:59

Speaker 2: get your aggravation out in a funny reply in a podcast letter and that that's a great place to prevent that and to clear the system and to acknowledge that that's what you're feeling.

00:28:11

Speaker 2: So that when you actually respond to those people, you're able to put on your best face and

00:28:17

Speaker 2: it doesn't need to be saccharine or sugary sweet or insincere. It can just be the clear No,

00:28:24

Speaker 2: I'm not available to help plan another event this weekend. We're really focused on the memorial service and our time with each other right now.

00:28:33

Speaker 2: I'm so glad that you'll be coming to mom's funeral or Mom's service but we won't be able to have dinner And and that's it. You don't need to go into long explanations and you don't need to craft excuses. You can simply decline and you can decline in the moment. There's no need to even consider the offer if you don't want to

00:28:53

Speaker 2: mm hmm. And

00:28:54

Speaker 2: it's up to the people who are making those requests and issuing those invitations to accept that And to understand that the way they can support you at this moment

00:29:03

Speaker 2: is to attend that service and send their condolence card And that's going to be the extent to which they're going to

00:29:13

Speaker 2: be interacting with you on a really personal level over this weekend for all kinds of good reasons

00:29:18

Speaker 1: dan I couldn't have done a better job on that sample script myself and it you are, you know, you give yourself far too little credit in terms of being a sample script king. It definitely I think is a time in life where a clear and easy and I love the way you order, I'm not available to do those things. I can't instead of

00:29:38

Speaker 1: not even instead of but but it sends such a nice message of of no, that's not something either that I have the capacity to do that

00:29:46

Speaker 1: is within my purview right now. It's just not going to happen. And I think anyone might even upon hearing even a polite delivery of that just kind of go, oh yeah, you probably wouldn't let you know what I mean. It's like that, that moment where you kind of realize, oh that's right. Of course you wouldn't like. Of course of course

00:30:07

Speaker 1: I think you would have a lot of really understanding people on the other end of that sample script.

00:30:12

Speaker 1: Amy again, we are so sorry that you're going through this hard time right now and we do hope that you get the love and support that you need to help grieve your

00:30:20

Speaker 2: mom

00:30:32

Speaker 1: mm hmm

00:30:35

Speaker 1: Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com

00:30:41

Speaker 2: leave a voicemail or

00:30:42

Speaker 1: text at 802858 kind That's 8028585463 or you can reach us on social media on twitter. We are at Emily Post on

00:30:51

Speaker 2: instagram. We are

00:30:52

Speaker 1: at Emily Post institute and on facebook were awesome

00:30:55

Speaker 2: etiquette.

00:30:56

Speaker 2: Just

00:30:56

Speaker 1: use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media posts so that we know you

00:31:01

Speaker 2: want your question on the show.

00:31:07

Speaker 2: If you enjoy awesome etiquette, consider becoming a member of the awesome etiquette Patreon community by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette. You'll get an ads, free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content plus you'll feel great knowing you helped to keep awesome etiquette on the air

00:31:25

Speaker 2: and to those of you who are already sustaining members.

00:31:28

Speaker 2: Thank you so much for your support.

00:31:30

Speaker 1: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer and the topics we cover and today we have feedback from robert on the wedding that was called off due to infidelity.

00:31:42

Speaker 2: Dear dan and lizzie, I was so very impressed with how you responded to the woman whose brother's wedding had to be called off.

00:31:49

Speaker 2: This has only ever happened to me once years ago when I received a card that matched the wedding invitation and concluded as you suggested, the marriage will not take place

00:32:00

Speaker 2: actually the last sentence was all gifts will be returned for more than a few wedding guests. I'm sure that's the first consideration,

00:32:10

Speaker 2: but the phrase, the marriage will not take place. Also reminded me of a comic song of that title by Ronald frank cow

00:32:19

Speaker 1: from

00:32:19

Speaker 2: 19 thirties England.

00:32:21

Speaker 2: He suggests a few reasons why a few marriages will not take place.

00:32:25

Speaker 1: The

00:32:26

Speaker 2: link below is provided for your amusement. My apologies if mr frank house diction hasn't survived well into this century. Best regards as always, robert,

00:32:35

Speaker 1: robert, we will definitely post that over on our Patreon channel in the public feed. Thank you so much for that link. I can't wait to go watch that.

00:32:46

Speaker 2: I will second that. Thanks

00:32:48

Speaker 2: and thank you to everyone for sending your thoughts and updates. Please do keep them coming. You can send your next feedback update or question to awesome etiquette Emily Post dot com. You can also leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463.

00:33:12

Speaker 2: It's time for our post script segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette and today we're going to talk about

00:33:19

Speaker 2: a post script of a

00:33:20

Speaker 1: different

00:33:21

Speaker 2: sort and

00:33:23

Speaker 1: it's

00:33:23

Speaker 2: essentially the post script for the book manuscript that Lizzy and I just submitted and we titled it Thinking forward. And it was a very brief little section that we included where we essentially posed some questions to the

00:33:37

Speaker 2: audience of that book that we thought were going to be relevant questions

00:33:42

Speaker 2: as etiquette changed and evolved over the next 100 years or into the next century.

00:33:48

Speaker 2: So we thought we would share that with the awesome etiquette audience and in the same way we

00:33:54

Speaker 2: invited the readers of that book to think about these questions and to feel free to correspond with us and to be in touch and to share their thoughts and opinions

00:34:03

Speaker 2: and maybe have an impact on a future version of the book. Someday we would like to share that same section with all of you.

00:34:10

Speaker 1: So the section is titled Thinking Forward.

00:34:14

Speaker 1: Far from static, Emily Post etiquette evolves as american society changes

00:34:19

Speaker 1: for all of the traditions that inform our advice, there are also current trends. The way we speak. The general attitudes around formality and familiarity.

00:34:30

Speaker 1: The specific actions we deem courteous and of course our methods of communication are all subject to change.

00:34:37

Speaker 1: As we celebrate 100 years of Emily Post's etiquette, we can't help but wonder what the next 100 years will

00:34:44

Speaker 2: bring,

00:34:45

Speaker 1: What will remain important,

00:34:47

Speaker 2: What will be new?

00:34:48

Speaker 1: What from today's modern etiquette advice will become traditional and what will be antiquated by the time the next generation if they're willing is ready to take on the

00:34:57

Speaker 2: mantle

00:34:58

Speaker 1: etiquette is always evolving

00:35:01

Speaker 1: consideration, respect and honesty will forever be good principles to guide us when we don't know what to do,

00:35:08

Speaker 1: but we use them along with feedback we hear from you to identify what's working and what

00:35:13

Speaker 2: isn't

00:35:14

Speaker 1: below are a number of topics that we can imagine seeing changes to in the future. We'd love to hear your thoughts on the etiquette surrounding them.

00:35:23

Speaker 1: We welcome your feedback on the following topics. Any thoughts they might inspire and the future of etiquette at thinking forward at Emily Post dot com.

00:35:34

Speaker 1: So here are the topics

00:35:36

Speaker 1: tipping in restaurants, restaurants, services, the only service where workers take home pay is dependent upon the gratuities they receive.

00:35:44

Speaker 1: There's a social expectation around restaurant tipping that is not outwardly stated. It's simply understood and trusted.

00:35:52

Speaker 1: Would changes in hourly wages that reduce the expectations around tipping in restaurants be welcome.

00:35:58

Speaker 1: Would a more european style of tipping in restaurants where gratuities are truly just a little bit extra and discretionary work for us in America,

00:36:08

Speaker 1: the obligatory wedding gift.

00:36:11

Speaker 1: Wedding gifts are traditionally given if you are invited to a wedding, whether you attend the wedding or not

00:36:17

Speaker 1: is obliging guests to give a wedding present if they decline the invitation too much to ask of guests,

00:36:24

Speaker 1: could a suggestion to send a congratulatory card if you don't attend a wedding, be a more practical piece of advice.

00:36:31

Speaker 1: Wedding attendance and

00:36:32

Speaker 2: gifts

00:36:33

Speaker 1: much is asked of those who agreed to be part of a wedding party. Should wedding attendants who often pay for multiple trips, parties and their wedding attire

00:36:42

Speaker 1: be required to also give a gift to the couple or could their participation be seen as the gift

00:36:50

Speaker 1: married titles.

00:36:51

Speaker 1: Currently only one title identifies an individual as being both an adult person and married.

00:36:58

Speaker 1: The title of mrs

00:37:00

Speaker 2: do more

00:37:00

Speaker 1: people wish they could use a title that functions this

00:37:03

Speaker 2: way. Would

00:37:04

Speaker 1: men and non binary or gender nonconforming people appreciate titles that allow them to identify as married when they are not presented with their partners? What might this look like

00:37:17

Speaker 1: responding to a changing

00:37:18

Speaker 2: climate,

00:37:19

Speaker 1: droughts, storms, flooding, fires, shortages, and even disease? Are stretching our social systems in new ways.

00:37:26

Speaker 2: What

00:37:27

Speaker 1: are the areas of etiquette that could see change in response to a changing climate?

00:37:32

Speaker 2: Will

00:37:32

Speaker 1: it impact our host and guest roles when we visit those who live in climates very different from our own

00:37:38

Speaker 1: could disaster preparedness and response becoming more regular consideration

00:37:43

Speaker 1: in our social expectations of each other.

00:37:47

Speaker 1: Whatever changes we see in the

00:37:48

Speaker 2: future,

00:37:49

Speaker 1: it is all of us, our friends, our families, and our communities who will determine the right thing to do.

00:37:57

Speaker 1: We hope that by looking at etiquette as something that exists in service to a society

00:38:02

Speaker 1: and that is meant to change.

00:38:04

Speaker 2: We

00:38:04

Speaker 1: can all participate in building a kinder more considerate and respectful world together.

00:38:10

Speaker 2: Some big picture thinking some small picture thinking we're really posing questions, not necessarily suggesting the answers that we think are going to emerge. At one point, I think we pictured this

00:38:22

Speaker 2: essay

00:38:24

Speaker 2: being more of a proposal about some things that we thought we saw coming and I think that lizzie would agree that we found that really difficult and what really made a lot more sense rather than proposing a series of married titles or anticipating the types of climate courtesies that

00:38:42

Speaker 2: We're already starting to see and projecting them forward 10 or 20 years,

00:38:47

Speaker 2: that it made more sense to,

00:38:49

Speaker 2: to try to ask the question, do other people see this happening as well and

00:38:54

Speaker 2: if you do, do you like it, do you like the direction? Do you see new things emerging as is so often the case with the awesome etiquette audience.

00:39:02

Speaker 2: More minds are better and

00:39:05

Speaker 1: very true.

00:39:06

Speaker 2: And when we're talking about predicting the future, I think more minds can only be better.

00:39:10

Speaker 1: Absolutely, absolutely,

00:39:13

Speaker 1: no, I was really excited that um that we ended up with the word count that would allow us to keep this little post script section, because I think that it helps

00:39:23

Speaker 1: highlight a truth, a truism, a reality of what dan and I live working at the Emily Post Institute about etiquette, and that is that

00:39:33

Speaker 1: it is what we are going to make it in the future. And that's not a wee dan and me or the other etiquette quote, unquote experts or the other etiquette authors out there. It's, it's we as an entire society. And it is interesting to think about what it will look like and I like the

00:39:51

Speaker 1: spirit that we got to with this because I think it is an inclusive spirit.

00:39:56

Speaker 1: It asked some questions to get people thinking maybe it's not even these topics. Maybe this inspires you to think of the topic um that you see coming down the, down the pipe for the pipeline, I forget which the phrases, um, and to write to us about that, but etiquette always is changing and evolving and adapting to be why

00:40:16

Speaker 1: I think what society needs it to be to be what society feels good about. And it's really interesting sort of paying attention to that. We often describe it as being the social barometer. You know, it's like you're not creating the weather but you're watching it all happen and you're trying to make sense of it. And I think as fans of etiquette as we all are,

00:40:36

Speaker 1: it was really fun to include this postscript at the very end of the book and really nail down that spirit of it's all of us who make this happen and what's going to be important to us in our tomorrow.

00:40:47

Speaker 2: So to continue your weather analogy, let's also think about what we're wearing. Thanks for reading.

00:40:54

Speaker 1: Thanks so much dan, it was really fun and really fun to work on this particular section with you. So I'm glad we got to share it with folks.

00:41:06

Speaker 2: We like to end our show on a high note.

00:41:08

Speaker 2: So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world and that can come in so many forms today. We have a salute from Rebecca

00:41:17

Speaker 1: Hello, awesome etiquette team. I have a salute today. My first that I have ever contributed. Thank you Rebecca.

00:41:24

Speaker 1: The other day I was walking my dog off lead in a small enclosed park. Her recall is a bit hit or miss. So this park is a great option for her to get some freedom and me to feel relaxed about it

00:41:36

Speaker 1: all was well until she made her way to the very far corner of the park and suddenly I saw her stick half her body through a gap in the fence railings that I had never noticed before. Right on the other side of the fence is a busy road where cars came pushing around the corner So you can imagine how my heart almost stopped.

00:41:54

Speaker 1: She didn't immediately respond to my calls and I was too far away to go and grab her in time. So I knew I had to employ a very risky last resort running in the opposite direction while yelling, bye bye and hoping she runs after me. I am so grateful for the couple who were walking by at that moment and paused as they realized what was happening

00:42:16

Speaker 1: as terrified as I was. I trusted that had she leapt through the gap in the fence, they would have grabbed hold of her for me and held her.

00:42:24

Speaker 1: They so easily could have carried on walking but they waited until she did come running to me in the end and it was really reassuring in a situation where I felt otherwise totally alone and helpless.

00:42:36

Speaker 1: I didn't get a chance to thank them before they walked off. So I would like to share this salute instead from a very grateful dog mama Rebecca. Oh, that is a heart wrenching moment and

00:42:49

Speaker 2: a phenomenal salute. It is a safety question. It's a more than just a simple courtesy. It's a situation where you realize there's

00:42:58

Speaker 2: life or death consequences and a willingness to stop and be involved is

00:43:04

Speaker 2: is really admirable.

00:43:05

Speaker 1: It's like more than polite. I think admirable is a really good good word. Thank you Rebecca so much for this salute.

00:43:11

Speaker 2: Mhm

00:43:13

Speaker 2: And thank you for listening.

00:43:14

Speaker 1: Thank you to everyone who sent us something and everybody who supports us on Patreon,

00:43:20

Speaker 2: please connect with us and share the show with friends, family and coworkers. However you like to share podcasts, you

00:43:26

Speaker 1: can send us questions, feedback and salutes by email to awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com by phone. Leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 80285854

00:43:37

Speaker 2: 63 on

00:43:38

Speaker 1: twitter. We're at Emily post on instagram. We are at Emily Post institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette and the Emily

00:43:45

Speaker 2: Post Institute, please consider becoming a sustaining member. You can find out more about this by visiting Patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette.

00:43:54

Speaker 2: You can also subscribe to the ads version of our show on Spotify or your favorite podcast app

00:43:59

Speaker 2: and please consider leaving us a review that helps our show ranking, which helps more people find awesome etiquette.

00:44:05

Speaker 1: Our show is edited by Kris Albertine, an assistant produced by Bridget, Dowd. Thanks,

00:44:10

Speaker 2: Chris and Bridget.

00:44:22

Speaker 1: Mm hmm.