Episode 399 - Tour Tipping
In this episode of Awesome Etiquette
Welcome to Awesome Etiquette, where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. On today’s show we take your questions on tipping overseas tour guides, when it’s appropriate to bring a plus one, drifting apart from friends, and connecting with clients on LinkedIn. For Awesome Etiquette Sustaining members our question is about photo-bombing humor at a wedding. Plus your most excellent feedback, etiquette salute and a postscript on defining places at the table from Margaret Visser’s The Rituals of Dinner.
Speaker 1: maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social courtesy. That's old fashioned
Speaker 1: watch act as host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person. Real friendliness.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to awesome etiquette where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. On today's show, we take your questions on tipping overseas tour guides when it's appropriate to bring a plus one
Speaker 1: drifting apart from friends and connecting with clients on linkedin for awesome etiquette sustaining members. Our question of the week is about photo bombing at a wedding plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a postscript on defining places at the table from Margaret visitors, the rituals of dinner. All that's coming up,
Speaker 1: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute. I'm lizzie Post and I'm dan post Senning and it is so good to be with you, lizzie Post. I'm glad to hear that. I'm glad to hear that. It's really good to be with you too.
Speaker 1: Um, I feel super energized this week because I did my first live in person event in two years.
Speaker 1: Hey, congratulations. How'd it go? Thank you. Thank you. It went really well. Honestly. It couldn't have gone better. The Seagrass dispensary in Salem massachusetts invited me down to do a book talk and discussion on higher etiquette and it was, it was so great to
Speaker 1: be in that zone again and they were because they were so hospitable. It was like everyone that I met was so nice. Everyone who was a part of the seagrass team was so helpful and accommodating. I felt very taken care of by my hosts like they were excellent, excellent hosts
Speaker 1: and like I don't know if if you've had this experience or you might have heard about this experience that sometimes people can be really intimidated walking into a dispensary. Often you're checking I. D. S. It's a very formalized process because they really have to track every person that just even approaches or walks into the venue
Speaker 1: and what was really cool was that I walk in and the very first thing I am greeted with is two giant smiles, big welcomes, very casual and relaxed presentation of the procedures they had to follow. It was like
Speaker 1: it was just so a plus hosting, I was like really impressed and the dance begins, dance begins yes, were you a well behaved guest? I think I was, I mean I tried to be very gracious and and thankful and to to comment on how impressed I was with everything, whether it was
Speaker 1: the decor and the layout of the space or the people that I was meeting or the convert like I relayed some of the conversations I had with some of the staff to one of the managers because they were great conversations, the staff was like so well informed and enthusiastic and
Speaker 1: participating. You know sometimes in a retail environment you can kind of just be like next customer and it was just not like that at all when I was there, it was really, really, really fabulous, I have to say that because first like, so I did my first plane trip to go visit my parents earlier in the month of april and this was my first like hotel stay,
Speaker 1: I was more weirded out by the hotel state than I thought I would be, I was definitely like as I was trying to sleep and it may have been because I had coffee later in the afternoon and I don't, you know me, I am not the coffee drinks between the two of us. So I was up late
Speaker 1: and every little noise in the hotel was really like, I kept thinking someone was trying to use their key on my door,
Speaker 1: not necessarily to get into my room, but because it was like an accident, you know like they're trying their key card and the wrong thing um but it was like every little noise I was really aware of so that was, that was kind of a new, new and I don't know as you travel in the next couple of weeks for your own
Speaker 1: on first live person events like you'll have to tell me what were some of the little things that you had to get used to like,
Speaker 1: I probably checked the room 15 times and then checked my bag even down in the lobby because I was so worried. I had forgotten something
Speaker 1: a little social anxiety or coffee jitters. It's amazing how similar those two feelings can be, right.
Speaker 1: Oh, totally, totally. But it was really great to be quote unquote out on the road and um, and with people and talking about etiquette and talking about how it impacts our lives and the way that
Speaker 1: we can be our best selves was it was so invigorating. I really loved it. Um, I hope I'll get a chance to work with that particular dispensary again, but it just got me excited
Speaker 1: about events and, and doing things in person again and more of that return to normal that we've all been either experiencing or longing for,
Speaker 1: I would be insane with jealousy if I weren't headed out for a couple of live events next week, because it is, it's there is such a quality to that in person experience and particularly with what we do. I was talking to someone earlier this week on a video
Speaker 1: conference, a video presentation, and beforehand, I was talking to the organizers and they were asking me, they were saying, is it hard to do this work in this medium or are you looking forward to being with people? We'd love to get you out here in the future. And I was
Speaker 1: as honest as I could be, and in that moment I was saying, you know, it is really difficult and there is something really special, particularly when you're talking about human relationship and connection
Speaker 1: to being in that space with people. It's not just something you learn or no, but it's something that you practice. It's something you experience with people and really having that experience is is so rich and
Speaker 1: it's something that I've been missing for two years now.
Speaker 1: So I could see there being a lot of emotions around having that experience for the first time.
Speaker 1: Well, I hope it is when you, when you go next week, there's a very fulfilling experience because that's, that's what I think overall I've walked away with it from is I feel very filled up, which is nice. It's really nice. Well, it's something that I'm seeing all around me and my, my personal life as well. I'm watching the social communities that I've been a part of for years.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say come back to life because they've been here, but
Speaker 1: but return return to that, that sort of a more dynamic in person quality. And I see smiles on people's faces. Maybe it's just springtime. But I also think it's a
Speaker 1: a larger springtime that we're getting to experience together. Just awesome. Re springing of life.
Speaker 1: Well, to get super cheesy with this, do you think we should spring into some questions. Oh, I do, let's do it
Speaker 1: awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions. You can email them to awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind that's 8028585463. You can also reach us on social media on twitter. We are at Emily post inst on instagram. We are at Emily Post institute and on facebook we are awesome etiquette.
Speaker 1: Just remember use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the show.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: Our first question is titled tips on tours. Dear lizzie and dan.
Speaker 1: I love the podcast as a London tour guide who often does Downton Abbey tours. I love how I can discuss modern etiquette in relation to society from another era. You have also improved my etiquette in ways I hadn't thought about before. Thank you so much
Speaker 1: As a tour guide. I finished my time with clients by saying thank you for allowing me to be part of your vacation. I often receive tips at the end of the tour.
Speaker 1: This is always appreciated and I am always humbled when I receive one, I offer a warm thank you look into their eyes and accept with appreciation. I say this is so kind of you thank you
Speaker 1: with the pandemic. I wondered if cash tips would go away and I have had a Paypal account for a while for other business purposes.
Speaker 1: I now have a Q. R. Code on hand and my paypal on a link on my instagram in case it is needed.
Speaker 1: There are two situations that I face one, Sometimes I receive emails that say we forgot to tip you and would like to show our appreciation for your amazing tour.
Speaker 1: Currently I reply with an email thanking them for their kind words and that if they wish they can use my Paypal info with a gentle note that also encourages them to leave a review in lieu of a tip.
Speaker 1: Is this right?
Speaker 1: It happened this week and the client was most generous with the papal tip and left a lovely note as well.
Speaker 1: My second question,
Speaker 1: despite my worry about no cash, I'm finding cash tips are still a thing. Believe it or not, tourists will ask if I can make change for them so they can tip me. They will have a £20 or £10 note in their hand and want to give me a 10 or £5 note.
Speaker 1: If I have been tipped by others on the tour, I make the change while feeling very uncomfortable about it because pickpockets often watch people with cash.
Speaker 1: However, occasionally this happens when no one has tipped
Speaker 1: since the pandemic, I don't carry cash. Am I required to carry cash for this situation? If I have none, could I offer them a business card with info on how to leave a review instead.
Speaker 1: Sometimes reviews are worth more than money, but mortgages don't accept five star reviews either.
Speaker 1: A few other things to note. We don't have Venmo in the UK.
Speaker 1: I have accepted cash from all over the world.
Speaker 1: Not all clients have the Paypal app installed
Speaker 1: and unlike some guides, I never solicit tips yours sincerely.
Speaker 1: Can you break this for me?
Speaker 1: Oh, can you break this for me? Thank you so much for the question. I just have to start with where you began,
Speaker 1: which is Downton Abbey Tours in London. I mean, could could anything be more of an etiquette picture? I picture a double decker red busses and
Speaker 1: people dressed up or at least visiting fancy estates. That just sounds like so much fun. I hope that our paths crossed someday. You know, I'm thinking like, I really want to make sure that I reach out to this listener if we ever get to go to England for anything.
Speaker 1: The other thing I have to mention about the way you began is you talk about appreciating both, what you've learned from the show, being about relating etiquette from another time to today and that you've learned some new things that you didn't even expect and
Speaker 1: that just warms my heart. It is so lizzie post and my intention for this show to both be about connecting etiquette to the past. We love the tradition that we're a part of and all the traditions that we're all a part of.
Speaker 1: And we also think that etiquette is a living breathing thing that, that really I think is surprising when people examine it in their own lives and in the moment. So I'm just so glad the show is working for you like that.
Speaker 1: As far as your question goes, it sounds like there's a lot of really good etiquette going on here. I love your sample scripts for your your your conclusion with people. I love the gratitude that you show people for their time and I love the escalation of that gratitude if someone tips you and that is a lovely exchange, it's part of the travel advice that we have in our new book to be ready for tipping when you travel. There are all kinds of occasions where when we're on the road, people are doing things for us and a really nice way to show your appreciation as a guest, as a visitor is to be ready to tip.
Speaker 1: I think that ties in a little bit to the answer to your second question, which I want to start with if that's okay with you lizzie? Yeah, no totally, let's start start, we'll work our way backwards, start start at the end. So you ask about essentially making change for tips, having the ability to make change for tips. And so often we're giving the advice the other way we're advising travelers to be ready to carry some some cash, some small bills and
Speaker 1: I can see that being
Speaker 1: advice that's more necessary after a pandemic where people were using less cash, but it was even true before the pandemic as people leaned and leaned into and relied on credit cards and electronic transfers, more and more, fewer and fewer people are carrying cash. And
Speaker 1: it's a great tip for travelers to have a little bit of cash on hand so you can tip with cash. And
Speaker 1: I think that the same advice applies to someone receiving tips. I think it's a good idea to think about ways that you can have a little bit of cash on you safely that you can manage discreetly and easily. Maybe there's a safe pocket you can keep it in. Maybe there's a way you can organize that money in the safe pocket so you can pull out exactly what you need without
Speaker 1: thumbing through a bunch of bills. Um But that it's it's not a requirement, it's not an obligation, but like so much of good etiquette, it's an opportunity to make that exchange a little bit easier for people to make it more likely to happen. And that's probably something we're thinking about.
Speaker 1: Because one way that you could do something like that is to keep your bills in different pockets. So you might keep some of those uh
Speaker 1: do they have £1 notes? But the the smaller smaller bills will say in in one pocket and those are the ones that you might reach to to make make that change. And then as you're accepting the tips, putting those larger bills that you're making change with into a different pocket
Speaker 1: might be one way to help that and so that you're not flashing like
Speaker 1: fifties, twenties, tens going by but more so just a couple of fives and ones that you're pulling out and working out of or like a 10, a couple of fives and a couple of ones. Um it might just make that that kind of wad of cash look a little less enticing to someone who might be curious about it and looking on.
Speaker 1: But I think it is so
Speaker 1: absolutely common to both be in a position where you have to make change and also potentially in a position where you're out of the change you've been able to make even if you brought your own kind of little change bankroll for the day. And that's why I don't think it's bad at all to suggest the Paypal link
Speaker 1: as a potential option or two to say, oh you know, I'm out of change right now,
Speaker 1: but if you are interested or if it is helpful, you know, I do have a QR code or a link on a card that I could give you so that you could tip later if you wanted to. And then even in that verbal exchange, adding on the piece about the review or I'll tell you what a really nice review is. Always incredibly helpful and I love the fact that our question asked her, can you make change um has as has already positioned themselves to say or with this, that it's already something that they do, that it's not like can you give me uh here's how to give me a tip and could you leave a review but or a review is great too and I think it is really nice to say that
Speaker 1: it kind of gives people that option. But I think more often than not you'll end up with the situation that you just had where the customer both or the person who attended the tour both leaves the tip and a review. And I think that that's a great way to get that kind of double whammy result, but positioning it as an oar I think is very tactful and thoughtful
Speaker 1: and you know dan even as I'm saying this or I am noticing that the language that, that our question, Nascar has used is in lieu of a tip which is even a little more strongly towards the idea that
Speaker 1: that it's, you could do the tip or this. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Um so you could soften it to the or or you could keep that in lieu of but either way, what I really like is that there's a presentation of it
Speaker 1: that isn't connecting it with just an and you know that that would almost seem like they're offering to do something and you're attacking something else they could do on top of it, the way the in lieu or the or works, it presents it as another option. And it's just such a bonus that the people choose both options. I like the way you're thinking about this. As I was
Speaker 1: thinking about the email reply, I was saying to myself, is it awkward to reply to a note of thanks asking for a tip? And I don't think it is particularly when we get the sample script that mentions the tip in that initial email. And
Speaker 1: I think when someone says we forgot to tip, they opened the door for you to reply with some information about tipping. And I think giving people a couple different options is kind, I like the idea of the QR code. I like the idea of the Paypal link.
Speaker 1: If you've got that information attached to a Trip Advisor profile or something that that that makes it easy where it's easy for you to, to, to put all that information where people can link out from it. I think those are all really good strategies or tactics.
Speaker 1: If someone just sends you a note thanking you, I think that is also the end of the exchange that there is no reply to a thank you know, you don't thank for a thank you note, it goes on forever. Yeah, you could, you could say, I'm so glad you had a good time or something like that so that it's not just like a
Speaker 1: a message to you that has absolutely no reply, but you're right, you don't have to make the thank you go on forever. There's one other thing that can you break this for me mentioned that I that jumped out at me and that was the idea of having some sort of business card or some sort of information available that you could hand someone that's that's physical right in the moment. And
Speaker 1: I just really like that idea so much. I think it's a great practice to think about. Obviously if you're working for a tour company or if you're working within an organization you want to be sure that
Speaker 1: whatever you're doing conforms and fits within their expectations of the people that are giving those tours. But
Speaker 1: if you've got the opportunity to give someone your contact information, I think it's a great way to start to build relationships. Who knows
Speaker 1: how that could develop over time. Often as people are looking for tour guides or people to guide them on future trips
Speaker 1: and it's also a great place to include that information. I I like the idea of having the Q. R. Code maybe write on that business card or maybe having that Paypal information right there as well. So
Speaker 1: the card serves a couple of different functions. It becomes a business card with contact information and also some information on tipping. I think that's I think that's a really good idea and another way to approach this moment in this situation.
Speaker 1: Can you break this for me? Thank you so much for the question. It's fun to think about London in the springtime. It's fun to think about people tipping and exchanging gratitude and we're really glad that you're enjoying the show and hope that our advice helps,
Speaker 1: good manners, social graces, etiquette, call it what you will
Speaker 1: all are based on consideration for others
Speaker 1: being kind to the other fellow in the little things of life as well as the big things.
Speaker 1: Our next question is titled solo but not single.
Speaker 1: Dear dan and lizzie Hello from a listener that's been with you since the dinner party download days, wow, thanks to you and your awesome team for keeping conversations about consideration, respect and honesty. A part of my weekly routine
Speaker 1: as we further emerge from the pandemic. I find myself seeking advice for social gatherings
Speaker 1: because of my leadership role at a local nonprofit. I am often invited to both formal and informal gatherings important for networking.
Speaker 1: My partner works in a totally different industry and works during the evening and on weekends
Speaker 1: when nearly all of these events take place and thus cannot attend with me.
Speaker 1: I am more than happy and at ease to attend on my own as a gracious guest and equally happy when appropriate to bring my best friend as a plus one.
Speaker 1: But what cues should I be aware of? To know which options are appropriate
Speaker 1: moreover if someone were to invite my partner and I to a dinner party and only I can attend. Is it okay for me to do so? Or should I only accept the invitation? If we can both make it?
Speaker 1: I want to stay active in my community, but I also want to be sure I'm honoring a hosts intended invitation.
Speaker 1: Thanks for your insight and your great work all these years. Solo but not single.
Speaker 1: Solo but not single. I think this is a really smart question to be asking and to make really short work of it first and then we can expand into it. I think that really quick indicator of whether it's okay to substitute out your partner for someone else is has the invitation been issued to you and your partner specifically
Speaker 1: or was it issued to you with a plus one and
Speaker 1: being in a couple. It's often that people will automatically issue it to a known established couple. If you're married. It's even more common that it will be issued to you as as you the two individuals in the couple and not receiving a plus one. The way
Speaker 1: Someone like myself, a known single person would receive an invitation that has a plus one.
Speaker 1: And so I think that one way to very quickly establish it is who is the invitation addressed to.
Speaker 1: Beyond that. I think that there are events where it's much more common to be able to
Speaker 1: call up a host and ask if you could have a substitute quote unquote date for the evening, you know, and bring someone along with you. And like if I invited dan and puja over for dinner one night and puja either didn't want to attend or wasn't able to attend. I could totally see dan picking up the phone calling me and being like, hey pooch can't come, but jesse Ritvo
Speaker 1: is around and free for the night. Would it be cool if I invited him and I would probably give some kind of answer. Like I can't believe I didn't invite him to begin with. But you know, I think that you're gonna know those close relationships and those dinner party invitations where it feels like you could ask the question of, could you substitute your, your usual partner for a different partner.
Speaker 1: Um, and I think that's a really great way to handle it. I think the more formal the occasion, the more distant you are from the host, the less you want to ask about a particular substitution
Speaker 1: dan. What do you think, What other points can we add to this? I think that makes a lot of sense. I think really thinking
Speaker 1: specifically and particularly about your relationship to the host is definitely where I would begin as well. There's that
Speaker 1: the larger point of etiquette that you don't, as a matter of course ask hosts to modify guest lists for you. You don't ask to bring extra people, You don't ask the sub people out and I, I hear an awareness of that in the way this question is asked. I just want to be explicit about about
Speaker 1: acknowledging that that's the that's the game we're playing. We're aware of that expectation that you don't do it,
Speaker 1: but it's just so practical and reasonable to do it in so many situations. The question is where is it okay to break the rules? And I think one of those situations is the one that you're talking about, where you know the person well enough where
Speaker 1: if the response was no actually his ex is gonna be here that night, it wouldn't be such a good idea. That would be an easy conversation between the two of you. And if that's an easy conversation that makes the ask much easier.
Speaker 1: If you feel like they would have a hard time saying no to your request to change a guest list. I think that's where I would start to say to myself, I might not ask to make that substitution. I think that there's much less sort of potential for problems
Speaker 1: accepting as a solo person when you've been invited as a couple. I think that's part of the equation is is relatively easy. Oh, so and so you can't make it but I would love to come.
Speaker 1: And
Speaker 1: if there's a problem with that, which I really can't imagine there being that would give someone a chance to to reply and say so, oh, you know, we're actually planning this game, that's all couples and it's going to be role plays. And do you have a plus one you could bring
Speaker 1: and and then it's that kind of situation is the only thing I can imagine where there would be that kind of response.
Speaker 1: I'm also thinking about the other end of the spectrum and less one that has to do with formality, but more that has to do with the event not being so personal. I'm thinking about bigger corporate events, larger gatherings where
Speaker 1: the intent and the idea is really to get a lot of people there and what they really care about is you being there and they've invited your spouse as a, as a courtesy, as good etiquette. But there isn't really a they who's even evaluating the social dynamic of the room and it would be completely fine to to bring someone other than your your partner or your spouse. And
Speaker 1: you could definitely check with the host, You could reply in a way that that asks, that doesn't just assume it where you're not just doing it because you think it's gonna be okay.
Speaker 1: But where I think there's very low cost, it's a low stakes ask and you're very likely to get a yes.
Speaker 1: The place where I would start to say, oh maybe maybe that wouldn't be as appropriate
Speaker 1: is a wedding. And I'm thinking about places where the guest list is much more carefully managed. So it's not just the size of the event, it's really the nature of the event as well.
Speaker 1: But I do think that
Speaker 1: with a willingness to navigate a little bit of gray area between those two things you can figure out which is which and it's, it's probably a safe ask.
Speaker 1: I think so too
Speaker 1: right? Like if it's a wedding for your cousin who you're really close with and your partner can't come, that's one where you might, you might have enough rapport together where you could say like, hey, could I, could I bring my best friend instead? Like you, you know, or something like that. Like it's someone that the,
Speaker 1: the person might know and maybe even wanted to invite but couldn't because
Speaker 1: people like your partner needed to be invited or something like that. You know what I mean? But if it was a wedding where I didn't know the people getting married as well or as closely and I mean pretty closely to be able to ask in that particular situation,
Speaker 1: that's one where I would just, I would just let it go and as you mentioned with the dinner parties, just show up solo and and be fine with that.
Speaker 1: I like your description of the gray area and you'll know based on the formality, the type of event and your closeness to either the honorees of the event or the host of the event or both. That will help you gauge that gray area
Speaker 1: and if it could be any, help thinking about making that call, ask yourself is the person putting together this guest list. Someone who's likely to be wrestling with the question of whether or not to offer singles or solo attendees plus ones.
Speaker 1: So if it's a wedding where you're saying to yourself, you know the plus ones, not everyone got a plus one.
Speaker 1: That might be a situation where you don't ask to do a substitution. But if it's an event where probably most of the potential solo attendees were given the option of bringing someone, it's probably a pretty safe bet to think about asking if you can sub out
Speaker 1: a partner or a spouse for someone else that you'd like to go with
Speaker 1: solo but not single. This question has definitely gotten me excited about future invitations and getting back into socializing and navigating those wonderful host guest dances. Thank you so much for the question and we hope our answer helps. Will you enjoy this special evening among your friends? Will you really have a good time
Speaker 1: or will you be a little unsure, A little uncertain about the right thing to do in the right time to do it.
Speaker 1: Our next question is titled couples conflict.
Speaker 1: Hello, Lizzie and Daniel, my wife and I had been friends with another couple for a few years. We got together occasionally and since both are circles were somewhat small, both couples considered us to be relatively close
Speaker 1: over time. My wife and I became more aware that there was a gap in our mutual interests and sensibilities and getting together for us anyway, became more arduous rather than enjoyable.
Speaker 1: We had always known we were on opposite poles politically and we mutually agreed to not talk politics went together. This quote unquote rule was violated occasionally by the other couple. Once COVID-19 entered our lives. However, that gap grew much wider
Speaker 1: and we made the decision to not visit them at all due to their refusal
Speaker 1: to take what we believed were the necessary precautions while in our company. And just overall,
Speaker 1: gradually we found other friends with whom we shared common worldviews and frankly just lost interest in this couple.
Speaker 1: Several months after no communication. One party of the other couple sent me a text
Speaker 1: which I found inappropriate so I didn't respond.
Speaker 1: This was followed up by another text a week or so later demanding rather rudely an explanation for my silence.
Speaker 1: My question is when friends grow apart due to these kinds of circumstances, does the couple abandoning the relationship? Oh the other any explanation if replying honestly would only result in more texts and other unpleasant repercussions. Thank you sincerely anonymous
Speaker 1: Tough one. This is a tough one. Anonymous thank you for the question and I think what makes it so tough is that breaking up is hard to do. It is especially in friendships. It is and there are obvious parallels between a romantic breakup and a friendship breakup and I
Speaker 1: I can't help my mind goes straight to the desire that some people have for closure. And I'll put that in quotes as a relationship ends. They want to
Speaker 1: process a breakup. They want to know why they want to understand the reasons and that's such a natural human impulse. And at the same time on the other side of the equation, if someone
Speaker 1: is initiating a breakup,
Speaker 1: there's a real art to finding out exactly how much you want to share or should share because nobody wants to sit around and listen to all the reasons why you don't want to be friends with him anymore. You don't want to be romantically involved with them anymore. And it's just
Speaker 1: it's a real art to giving the relationship the honor that it's due and at the same time not really hurting someone at the same time. And sometimes that hurt is unavoidable because
Speaker 1: breaking up doesn't always feel good to everybody involved.
Speaker 1: So one of the guidelines that we use for breakups is that you think about the relationship itself and you use that as your guide for how much responsibility you have in terms of explaining yourself in a breakup and giving someone else a chance to understand what's going on
Speaker 1: with friendships. That's oftentimes a little bit easier because there's been less
Speaker 1: definition around the relationship to begin with. So less work is required to break that down as you exit it.
Speaker 1: Mhm.
Speaker 1: I think it's entirely appropriate the way you've
Speaker 1: began this where you've
Speaker 1: just allowed the space to grow between these, these this couple and yourself and this friendship dan. I totally agree there are lots of friendships, especially during the pandemic that kind of just drifted apart naturally and and that can happen so easily and
Speaker 1: uh sometimes when both parties let it happen, it's like mutual ghosting has worked, you know, dan you've been a fan of that phrase, the mutual ghosting one, but it's very hard when someone kind of pops back in and is like going, hey, what's going on here? You know, and and and really confronts the issue
Speaker 1: it really is. And I want to break down the the exchanges, the text exchanges that follow this.
Speaker 1: Okay, when someone reaches out to you after a while, I think usually the expectation would be that you do some sort of reply that you might not, you know, indicate further future actions or you might not open up the discussion in a way that it's ongoing. But usually you would give some kind of reply.
Speaker 1: But if that text is inappropriate, if it's and we don't know exactly what the nature of that inappropriate text was, sometimes the best option is that you ignore it or that you let it go that it's easier and better to do that than to engage in a way
Speaker 1: that doesn't respect yourself or doesn't honor some boundaries that you've drawn with somebody quite clearly
Speaker 1: when they then follow up later demanding some sort of reply or indicating that they were hurt.
Speaker 1: That puts you in a tough situation to me. That's where I start to get that image of the person who really wants closure and really wants to talk with you about why this breakup is happening and
Speaker 1: it puts you in a position of having to decide exactly how much information you're going to share. But I do think it's advisable to engage and and offer them something
Speaker 1: for the sake of the harmony of the community. You've mentioned that
Speaker 1: this couple moves in social circles that you're a part of or that there are things that connect you to them in terms of the community that you operate in. So figuring out a way to, to soften this break up a little bit is probably in everybody's interest
Speaker 1: dan. One way that you, you could handle this one for exactly the reason that you just stated that there there might be times when you're going to run into this couple and maybe announcing like, hey, I'm really done with our friendship. That's why I didn't respond like isn't the way to go. One thing I've heard you share before dan, is that
Speaker 1: you could just address the text message itself and you could say, you know, I didn't respond to that text message because I found it inappropriate and I wasn't able to craft a response I felt confident in and so I just didn't respond. I'm really hoping that we do.
Speaker 1: You know, maybe even stop there. I didn't, so I just didn't respond. Leave it there.
Speaker 1: It's me like wanting to go into even more explanation. Like, you know, I'm hoping we don't have conversations like this in the future or we we agreed not to talk about these things if it was one of the subjects who had agreed not to talk about, but I think stop yourself there like, like I did and just
Speaker 1: I didn't respond because I didn't feel comfortable having whatever this message was sent to me and I didn't know how to respond appropriately, so I didn't say anything
Speaker 1: and I think leaving it at that gives an explanation for what happened. It doesn't guarantee that you're not gonna get pestered with more questions or more aggression coming from the other side, but I think it does clearly address what they are asking, which is an explanation for the silence, like a kind word turns away wrath or something like that. Yes. Yes.
Speaker 1: I think one of the advantages of keeping the focus on the exchange itself and not the broader friendship issue is that I think there's a pretty solid course of action for dissolving the friendship moving forward and that's that you have a lot of control over whether or not you accept invitations to participate in things socially and who you initiate invitations to to participate
Speaker 1: with socially. So
Speaker 1: looking forward, there's nothing that forces you to continue to associate with this couple and by just doing those two things consistently in an ongoing way, this friendship is not going to have much of a venue to continue. It doesn't sound like they're excellent texters or long term communicators. So by just allowing those social connections to to break over time, I think you can be free of the friendship in the ways that you'd want to be and probably still manage those moments. If you do cross paths with them at larger community events or or larger social gatherings with those friends that do cross over with them, it might just sort of be that
Speaker 1: that soft exit that's unspoken and and you just, it's just kind of gone after a while and you recognize that you run into each other from time to time. But no, you're not going to accept their invitation to do something. And that that's become clear at this point.
Speaker 1: If you are the type of person who either feels better confronting the issue or feels like they need to experience the clarity of that more definitive. We aren't interested in hanging out anymore.
Speaker 1: I think there is room for that conversation. I think it's a hard conversation to have and I would not expect the other person receiving it to receive it well all the time.
Speaker 1: Um, we often say even sometimes when you're delivering an apology, um, something someone might want, it's not always going to be received. Well, and I think keeping that in mind, if you do decide to confront the issue directly and say something more along the lines of,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know, Gillian, it's pretty clear that we have different views and we are at a point where we aren't comfortable getting together anymore, and I'm sorry that it's come to this, but I'd rather be honest and clear
Speaker 1: um than to just ignore texts or ignore invitations and things like that. And I hope, I hope you can understand and that's,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't think it's ideal. I think it's a possibility and it may be a possibility you have to resort to if the message of turning down invitations or not responding to uncomfortable text messages doesn't come through
Speaker 1: lizzie post. Something else that this question makes me think of is something that we talked about on the show a lot, which is how you talk about potentially really controversial subjects and topics with people in ways that don't jeopardize relationships. And
Speaker 1: this is just such a reminder to me about the social costs of failing to observe those etiquette guidelines. That even if you love to talk politics, even if you love to argue about politics or disagree about politics or engage with people who have different views than you,
Speaker 1: that
Speaker 1: when you do those things, you've really got to be careful and you've got to have your social antenna out, because oftentimes the impact on the other side is one where someone just wants to get distance from you, where they're just not interested in it or
Speaker 1: it causes them to make judgments about you and your value systems or what's important to you. And the ways you choose to share those things that, that they just don't want to be a part of. And that's a reasonable decision for someone else to make. And I think it's a really good caution for all of us
Speaker 1: as we think about navigating a world that is often times very polarized and polarizing
Speaker 1: that while these things are important, it's important that we're able to engage with them, that we take care with the social relationships in our life because there can be consequences to that. That
Speaker 1: that might not be the ones we anticipate
Speaker 1: dan. It's a, it's a great reminder to pay attention to those tears of conversation and and take the temperature of the room as you're talking about things as opposed to just like being stoked to talk about. The thing you want to talk about um, is a, is a really good point
Speaker 1: anonymous. It is a very tough situation that you are in and we truly hope that our answer helps to give you some options for being able to engage and handle it in a way that you can feel confident and move forward from.
Speaker 1: Well, johnny's room think of others,
Speaker 1: he won't take turns
Speaker 1: and he always seems to be mad at somebody always around. You don't think he really wants to be that way, do you?
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: Our next question is titled New to Networking.
Speaker 1: Hi lizzie and dan. I hope this finds you well and that you're having a great week. I love listening to awesome etiquette as a boost of positivity in my day.
Speaker 1: My question relates to business etiquette. I'm in my mid 20s and have started in a new role as a project manager. I am meeting so many amazing people, both co workers and clients.
Speaker 1: One of the things I find myself grappling with is knowing when it is appropriate to connect on linkedin with clients.
Speaker 1: The people I get to know our phenomenal in their fields and have so many unique experiences
Speaker 1: as someone just starting out in this space. I find myself wanting to build my network but don't want to betray confidentiality.
Speaker 1: I've been limiting invitations to clients to where I see another coworker has already added them. But wonder if there is an easier way to go about this.
Speaker 1: Thanks for all you do to make the world a little brighter. Best new to networking.
Speaker 1: New to networking. It's funny, I was just telling dan recently that I feel like my linkedin life has kicked in and engaged heavily. Like all of us. It's like an
Speaker 1: you know, just social media app. I don't use often. And it's like we have a presence there and everything. We, we, I feel like through engaging it more through Emily Post social media, so it's, I feel like I've been getting more ticks just on my own account there and it's been really interesting to see the connections that pop up was actually able to utilize a connection when um like through a friend, it was, it was really interesting to see how all of a sudden have like dived into linkedin in a different way people are popping up everywhere. But I think it's really, really smart in these spaces to be aware of the types of connections that you are making. And while this platform is definitely designed for you to
Speaker 1: basically cold call, introduce yourself to someone, it is like, it's perfectly appropriate to reach out to people who are in similar industries as you who are people that you find very interesting and and asked to follow them or asked to be connected to them. You might not always get a reply
Speaker 1: um or or a yes, but it is the exact space where it is appropriate to approach people in this way. It was designed to do just that be a really big searchable database for all kinds of fields and industries and and getting connected to people and companies that you would like to be connected to. I get a lot of
Speaker 1: um linkedin requests from people who
Speaker 1: run various podcasting networks or who are in advice industries or who do certain entertainment work. It's, it's really interesting to see who pops up and says, oh Emily Post and this person at Emily Post could be a really great connection to make, let's just see what happens. And I think
Speaker 1: that keeping that spirit alive as you think about your linkedin navigation is really great, but I also want to give you big etiquette kudos
Speaker 1: for considering how your actions and interactions on something like linkedin
Speaker 1: might impact your colleagues and their relationships with their clients and sort of moving into the more advice any part of this. I think that a really good place to start is probably to check with the manager or higher up about if they have any thoughts
Speaker 1: on linkedin practices and good practices at this particular company
Speaker 1: dan. I'm imagining that there are some industries, especially ones where you're very much so based on like commissions where you don't want to be seen as like poaching someone's clients or trying to piggyback on their clients. They are public networks and being aware of your behavior on public networks is always a really smart thing to do and
Speaker 1: you're right Lizzy. Sometimes it's a question about
Speaker 1: poaching a client or moving in on someone's space or sometimes it might be a confidentiality question, I don't know what type of client work new to networking does, but
Speaker 1: if it's very consistent that you're connecting with people you work with and clients that you've worked with, people who are observing your network or who might happen to see your network might learn something about someone based on them being connected to you at the same time, lizzie as you said,
Speaker 1: linkedin is a really big network. People use it for a lot of different reasons, in a lot of different ways and
Speaker 1: your client doesn't have to say yes to your request. If they accept that connection, they're participating in that public linking that thing that might be observable to other people. So it's not like you're forcing that on anyone. It's a pretty low stakes ask. And I like where you started with with it lizzie thinking about it as a tool that that you really have some latitude, particularly professionally in terms of how you're using.
Speaker 1: But I also love that idea,
Speaker 1: particularly when you're talking about relationships with clients, checking in with someone, a manager, a supervisor. I think that's some of the best advice that we could give. I like the way new to networking is watching colleagues and seeing what they do. That's another, another really good way to figure out what the norms are in an organization.
Speaker 1: I like your thinking about the potential of poaching clients again, depending on on what the nature of that client relationship is. So that watching co workers or colleagues might not always be perfect as a solution. The one other thing that I would put on the table is
Speaker 1: if you have an opportunity you can always ask the people that you are hoping to connect with. It's not always possible, but often times people will say, oh are you on linkedin, I'd love to connect with you there. And when you get someone's permission in the real world, over email or face to face or over the phone,
Speaker 1: I think it both makes it entirely appropriate to make that ask on the network but also more likely that they're going to accept that request. Absolutely, absolutely new to networking. I love that you experience awesome etiquette is a little bit of positivity in your day that brightens my day. Just a little bit too here,
Speaker 1: it sounds like you're doing great in your new job. Keep it up, keep building those networks. You never know where they're going to take you in the future. We hope our answer helps
Speaker 1: thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. Leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463.
Speaker 1: Or you can reach us on social media on twitter. We are at Emily post inst on instagram. We are at Emily Post institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette
Speaker 1: just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media posts so that we know you want your question on the show.
Speaker 1: If you enjoy awesome etiquette, consider becoming a part of the awesome etiquette community on patreon. You can find out more by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette. You'll get an ads free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content plus you'll feel great knowing that you helped to keep awesome etiquette on the air
Speaker 1: and to those of you who are already sustaining members. Thank you so much for your support.
Speaker 1: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer and the topics we cover and today we have more feedback on episodes 3 76. The question about sneaking in today, we hear from mark. Hi guys love the show.
Speaker 1: I say it depends on the situation and this would be whether or not you allow someone to slip in behind you through a security door that requires a badge to access.
Speaker 1: If someone is known to you as an employee and there's no issue for management or security, it's fine.
Speaker 1: Your turn will come up running late or with your hands full. Many years ago I worked in a precious metals refinery. As you can imagine, security was tight. Similar to today's T. S a screening. The unwritten rule of thumb was someone known is okay.
Speaker 1: Anyone unknown.
Speaker 1: Absolutely not slam the door on security can handle them easier in a public space. Once inside security procedures would be seen and the robbery potential could go up a simple, sorry I don't know you and stopping them was fine for us.
Speaker 1: We did direct them to the phone that was often already ringing with security, wanting to talk with them,
Speaker 1: everything was on video and manned.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I'd mentioned the phone. If walking in with what appeared to be a possible new client to help with the company image, something like hello, first time here, then you will need to pick up the phone on the right when it rings for entry or that's for you.
Speaker 1: I love the show. Thanks for keeping me busy at work behind the secure doors of the sewer treatment plant.
Speaker 1: Smile
Speaker 1: Nice Mark. Thank you so much for that feedback. I really appreciate both the perspective and the humor that you delivered it with. Thank you so much indeed.
Speaker 1: And thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please do keep them coming. You can send your next question feedback or update two awesome etiquette Emily post dot com. You can also leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463.
Speaker 1: It's time for our post script segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette and today we're going to talk about our place at the table. This comes from Margaret visors rituals of dinner pages to 10 and 2 11 where she discusses moving from a common pot style meal to having your own plate and
Speaker 1: everything that came with that for the place setting,
Speaker 1: and our dear Emily gets a reference. Alright, Margaret Visser begins helpings.
Speaker 1: We no longer eat from a common dish, but are each served or each take a portion on a plate seated upright on our separate chairs. We keep elbows in and hands off anybody else's dish.
Speaker 1: It was once a friendly gesture to give fellow diners choice morsels from our plates or from serving dishes set near us on the table or for the host to express esteem for particular guests, bypassing them special delicacies.
Speaker 1: It is now permissible only when there is considerable intimacy for fellow diners to give each other quote unquote tastes from their plates,
Speaker 1: correct behavior guarantees the absolute sovereignty of every diner over his or her domain. The individual plate in its designated quote unquote, place an area of the table safely bordered by its metal implements and impermeable to incursions from without,
Speaker 1: except for supplies and replenishment of food as permission for these is given
Speaker 1: the place at formal dinners still is never permitted to stand empty
Speaker 1: on entering the dining room. And nowadays, on entering many, an expensive restaurant, the prospective diner finds a place plate,
Speaker 1: sometimes also called a charger and upon it a napkin filling the area of the place if there is no place plate. A compromise may be made by having the napkin alone fill this space. A place plate is often elaborate.
Speaker 1: It never has to submit to scraping and scrubbing for it is never used for actual eating.
Speaker 1: It has no function but to ensure that the designated area does not lie empty, it will be removed when food is brought in as each succeeding course is finished and the dishes are taken away. A clean place plate should always fill every place until the next course arrives.
Speaker 1: Quote, a plate with food on it can never be exchanged for a plate that has had food on it. A clean one must come between end quote.
Speaker 1: It is as though these patches of bare tablecloth cry out to be filled like guests who must not be left unsatisfied lest they become quote unquote demanding and a source of future trouble.
Speaker 1: A place is not a place at a formal dinner without its plate
Speaker 1: formal etiquette is said to require that when a very correct diner eats alone, four places should be laid at one at each of the tables, four sides and four, even at a round table. Emily Post's 1928 edition
Speaker 1: shows a picture of such a table laid for a lady of the house lunching alone.
Speaker 1: The objects customarily found on the dining room table at meals such as places laid for other people or side plates, even when no bread and butter is being served are often necessary to a diner's sense of well being
Speaker 1: an extreme example of this principle was the decision of the Igbo of Nigeria in the 19th century, made in a time of famine so serious that no Coco yam foo foo was available
Speaker 1: and the people had to content themselves with soup
Speaker 1: at the left hand side of each diner where comforting balls of foo foo would have been heaped up when people could eat their fill a pile of stones was placed instead and the soup was eaten with spoons since there was no food to dip into the bowl.
Speaker 1: In 1922, Emily Post suggested to Americans that hosts who could not provide wine, set out at least two wine glasses and quote unquote pour something pinkish or yellowish into them so that appearances at least would live up to expectations Dan. I could go on about this forever because Margaret Visser then goes into
Speaker 1: 14th century europe where there were no covers or place settings and she starts talking about goblets that are, that are standing in on the table. I mean it's, it's just wonderful. And even the platters, which she then refers to as also called chargers
Speaker 1: might be brought out and it's, it's just fascinating to see. But I love
Speaker 1: the idea of once we defined individual spaces at the table
Speaker 1: that that became so important that even Emily Post in multiple editions of etiquette was suggesting that you set kind of blank places at the table even though they will go unused. It cracks me up today because I don't, I don't think I would do this dining alone in my home? But I'm
Speaker 1: and smiling at the thought of Emily recommending that to people. We often talk about the durability of table manners, how slow they are to change. So when I love how this is examining a moment of change, when we started to get our own plates of food, when we weren't just spooning out of these communal dishes in quite the same way
Speaker 1: and then the routines that that establishes because it is a significant change. And then the implications of that change our that Well, we set up everyone with their own place, even if everyone is not present. And we structure our our place in a way that defines it that even if there's no food on it, there's some sort of
Speaker 1: receptacle that could hold food theoretically if it were there. Although it does make the the charger, the place plate sound just totally ornamental, doesn't it? Well, it's an aesthetic consideration, but we also talked about how important aesthetics are at the table. And who knows maybe it's it's
Speaker 1: the process of digestion begins when you smell food. Maybe it begins when you sit down and you see that you've got your own place at the table. That that's the beginning of the whole process of eating that that that is aesthetic as well as practical or physical or gross. Even
Speaker 1: the most important moment though of this entire reading happened very close to the start lizzie.
Speaker 1: What what what what was that? What did you observe when Margaret visser agreed with me and said you and need to keep your forks off the plate. The sharing of food. Oh my goodness and I are just old school were just old school cousin dan. We're just old school or the end of that sentence unless you know the people so well, you could say the were close and you can give me your favorite bite.
Speaker 1: No, I can't. And dan with a steak knife is sitting there guarding his food. No, um that's hysterical, well spotted cousin. Well spotted
Speaker 1: It also Dan all of it reminded me of the past that we just did the editing passed on the book and and coming across that section on the charger. And in our advice at this point in time for 2022, we talked about that charger
Speaker 1: staying throughout the meal up until the main course and then once your main course plate
Speaker 1: which is just a little bit smaller than the charger, but it is the biggest plate you will eat off of once that one arrives, you actually the the charger is removed with the last course before that particular main course is laid in front of the diner.
Speaker 1: So that's kind of the way that we do things today, but it's really cool to hear hear about it and also hear about other elements
Speaker 1: like the stones and things that could take the same kind of sentiment of, of keeping the, the setting full even if the food isn't there to do. So I thought that was a really interesting point to, well thank you lizzie post and thank you Margaret Visser, it is always such a treat to return to the rituals of dinner.
Speaker 1: Like everyone else. She thinks that her etiquette is perhaps not perfect,
Speaker 1: but good enough so that there are no glaring errors. The main thing is that they should enjoy each other's company.
Speaker 1: They know that the object of correct etiquette is not to make life formal and dull but to make it fully enjoyable.
Speaker 1: We'd like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world and that can come in so many forms. Today we have a salute from Aaron in Ontario.
Speaker 1: Hello lizzie and dan. I hope you and the entire awesome etiquette team are well, I'm a longtime listener, although I did fall quite far behind during the pandemic as I no longer had my commute act as my podcast time.
Speaker 1: I wanted to give an etiquette salute to my coworker. Andrew's daughter. I overheard an exchange between Andrew and another coworker nestor yesterday as Andrew was about to head home
Speaker 1: during the pandemic. Andrew had been quite stressed and upset while working from home and his seven year old daughter had taken to drawing him pictures on a regular basis to cheer him up.
Speaker 1: Not only did this lovely child keep up with drawing pictures for her father for two years to make her father smile. His home office is now plastered with drawings,
Speaker 1: but when we all returned to the office she asked Andrew how Nestor was doing, Andrew told her that nestor was rather stressed these days. And sure enough she then drew a picture for nestor for Andrew to bring into work and asked him to promise to give it to nestor. I have rarely seen such compassion and kindness from a seven year old,
Speaker 1: least of all shown consistently over the course of a couple of very stressful years.
Speaker 1: The entire exchange has had me smiling for over a day,
Speaker 1: thank you lizzie and dan for such a wonderful podcast. I am looking forward to catching up on all the episodes I missed soon warmly, Aaron from Ontario.
Speaker 1: Oh gosh dan, this just has me, I feel like I'm gonna be smiling all the way through sunday with this one. This is so incredibly sweet. I just love this salute. Two years a drawing a day. I'm imagining a room with essentially wallpaper, this that's Children's drawings, it could just be kind of spectacular.
Speaker 1: Oh, I just love it erin, thank you so much for this salute.
Speaker 1: Mhm
Speaker 1: and thank you for listening, thank you to everyone who sent us something and who supports us on Patreon, please do connect with us and share this show with friends, family and coworkers. However you like to share podcasts. You can send us questions feedback and your salutes by email to awesome etiquette. Emily Post dot com
Speaker 1: by phone. You can leave us a message or send us a text at 802858 K. I. N. D. That's 8028585463
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Speaker 1: and please consider leaving us a review that helps our show ranking, which helps more people find awesome. Medicate our show is edited by Kris Albertine. An assistant produced by Bridget Dowd. Thanks chris and Bridget.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: Mhm
Speaker 1: mm hmm.
Speaker 1: Right