Episode 4: Yes Yes Yes
Speaker 1: Maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social courtesy. That's old fashioned.
Speaker 1: Watch how busy
Speaker 2: Post and their posts and actors host and hostess.
Speaker 2: They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person. Really Friendliness. Welcome toe. Awesome etiquette. Part of the infinite guest network. I'm damn post sending.
Speaker 1: And I'm Lizzie Post from the Emily Post Institute. And I will say that for our episode today, we have some extra ordinarily exciting news to share with you, Dan. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm engaged. Yeah. Who just said? Yes. In fact, she said yes. Yes, yes. Nice. You got triple. Yes, I got trouble. Yes, I love it. Yeah, Buddha,
Speaker 2: it really is a treat toe to share the news with all of our listeners out there. Uh, at the Emily Post Institute. We know that people come to us at four major life events, and one of them is when they get married. Eso When one of us crosses that milestone or starts to look forward to crossing that milestone, it's a little bit of a big deal. So it's been really exciting for me both personally, but also to share that news with my colleagues who are also my family. It's one of those those feedback loops. There's just nothing but positive. I love. Here we go,
Speaker 1: Peter. My dad walked into the office. I think it was like yesterday or Tuesday, he goes. So wait, you asked her like it is You've been engaged for, like, two or three weeks now. And she, like Peter, just had no clue that it had actually happened. Well,
Speaker 2: a little bit like you. Peter is Lizzie's father, My Uncle Peter Post and, um, Lizzie had been really helpful for me finding an engagement.
Speaker 1: We went ring shopping, left, right and center, and it really
Speaker 2: started the process, and it's fun to share a little more of the story. Uh, there was a particular juror and I went back with my now fiance, and she ended up finding a ring that was unexpected. Way had spent some time looking, and boy, she had a good eye. It's it's really it looks phenomenal honor, and it really suits her. And it was a huge success, and I look forward to sharing a little more of the proposal in the engagement story, but But I I've had the ring and I've been waiting for the perfect time trying to set it all up. So people in the family knew it was coming. So Uncle Peter was away traveling and I just assumed he knew and he got back and have been around for a while,
Speaker 1: especially because we had announced it during a staff meeting. Is just We all forgot he wasn't. He wasn't there for that stuff mean,
Speaker 2: um, so one day we were walking into the office. We have this sort of funky bridge into the second floor of our building, and he looks over in us. Oh, by the way,
Speaker 1: heard your gauge. It's okay. It's just like that.
Speaker 2: I said, Oh, Peter, I'm so sorry. I can't believe I I forgot to tell you. And, uh, Lizzie's mother, Peter's wife, Tricia, had sent a lovely bouquet. So in many ways, the whole whole thing had registered as if it had been officially from both
Speaker 1: of them, and it hadn't well, come on, Give give, give the listeners. The story tells
Speaker 2: the story, country boy proposes. It was a spot that my brother had found on the hike up camel's hump back in our teenage years. of exploring
Speaker 1: is the mountain you live on
Speaker 2: the side of. Now I live on the side of Camels Hump in central Vermont and second highest mountain in the state, only one without a ski area. So it's absolutely beautiful. You get up into the Green Mountain National Forest and you can sum it out. But on the way up there's a secret waterfall. And back when I was 16 years old, I said, Someday I'm gonna propose here, and I didn't think it was gonna take 20 years. I definitely remembered the promise to myself, and I introduced the proposal when, Ah, Putin and I were on a hike and we kind of snuck off up there and and, um, she's such a free spirit. She was just loving this adventure and this waterfall,
Speaker 1: and all of
Speaker 2: a sudden I'm talking about setting intentions, and this is a great place to set intentions and make 20 year plans. And, uh, she starts to realize that one of my good friends asked me. So you get down on one knee. I said no. We were on this ledge and we're gonna sitting next to each other. But, um, I definitely said, Now don't miss it. This is This is where it's going to get kind of serious. And I proposed. I told her I loved her dearly and wanted to spend the rest of my life with her. And she just said Yes, yes, yes, and we're really excited. We spend a little bit of time
Speaker 2: just enjoying that moment, and after a little time had passed, I said, So do you want to see your ring? And, uh, Lizzie had helped, As we said earlier, kind of Get us started on that. And then Pooch had found it. And then, because I had purchased, had been a while. She thought that had been sold. It had been lost. She told her family, her sister and her mother that she was really disappointed. She hadn't told. She
Speaker 1: went back and the ring was gone, and she was so upset.
Speaker 2: So she says, there's a ring and I said Yes, absolutely. And she says it and and then I see the realization that maybe it was the one, the one that she had wanted. And so when I tell the story I love to share, that was absolutely the best of both worlds as far as the Ringo's and I'm really focusing on the ring. It's not the heart of the matter, but really, it was the part that we talked about previously on the show and toe to bring it all back around. She both got to pick exactly the one she wanted and get surprised when she got it. Which is awesome. Which, if you could design a perfect scenario. That's that's right up there, exactly. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Now, if you want to see video of said Ring. I was smart enough to bust out my little iPhone camera and actually take a little clip of Dan as he was purchasing the ring. And I will tell you that the very best part is at the end when it freezes on his extraordinarily excited face. And you could just see that he's dying to do this, and he knows he's making the right decision. Um, I will also tell you, and I'm going to take full credit that one month into their relationship, as soon as I met Pooja, I turned to Dan and I said, You're going to marry her and it was just She's one of those people that you just meet her and you know that she is perfect for Daniel
Speaker 2: and and I was It's funny. I was saying to her just last night, I said, I sort of stumbled into this decision and it was an easy one to make. It didn't feel hard. And I think it's one of the best I've ever made, if not the best. And that's always That's always the best, best, best, best best. Could you tell him? A little gushy.
Speaker 1: Here s Oh, congratulations, Dan. And we really hope that our listeners will continue to share in the wonderful moments to come in our lives. Absolutely. E o
Speaker 1: the way with now for the main part of our show. Your questions.
Speaker 2: I'm invited to a black tie wedding this summer. Is it appropriate to wear a black gown with a black and ivory top E
Speaker 1: se? Yes. I think that for a black tie wedding. First of all, um, it nowadays is perfectly OK to wear black to a wedding. We do suggest that you don't wear all black, so maybe, you
Speaker 2: know, maybe perfect.
Speaker 1: Exactly. So you know, But add some kind of a scarf, some kind of color something to it to break up the black, Um, just so that you don't get misconstrued as a funeral. So I'm a curious
Speaker 2: cousin here. I get questions about lady's attire all the time and help me out. Colored scarf jewelry. Is that enough to break up a black dress
Speaker 1: colored scarf? Yes, jewelry? I don't think so. I mean, it has to be some pretty massive earrings and Bangles and necklaces to break up a black dress. I think you really need a scarf to break that up, or you need it to be a separates so black bottom with, you know, beautiful colored top. Or if it's mostly black, dress with, you know, I don't know flowers or pattern or something. Or if it's the color blocking thing, which is what, um, this reader is talking about. And just to get back to her question. Yes, it is appropriate black tie. It sounds like the gown will definitely be appropriate. You might throw some kind of a colored shot in with it, just so that you have that little pop of color somewhere. But the black is fine. The ivory is fine, and after that I wouldn't worry about it. And yea, for you for getting invited to a formal wedding. I feel like those don't have s so it should be said Dan and I live in Burlington, Vermont, so, you know, very, very casual place. It is not what you would think that a lot of people assume the Emily Post Institute has, like vaulted ceilings and marble columns and butler serving Butler serving Thio someday, one day on DNO. I mean, Dan and I each kind of grew up in in the country in Vermont, and it's very casual, so we like it when we hear people going to fancy things.
Speaker 2: Interesting aside, there's a shortage of butlers in the world right now. Apparently, it's a trend following the popularity of downtown Abbey. Internationally, a lot of the emerging super rich globally are wanting very traditional British train butlers. So, yes, there's currently something like 10,000 butlers in training in Great Britain. So So, yeah, look to a new vogue around having
Speaker 1: we have some new butler etiquette for people.
Speaker 1: Question Number two also comes from our newsletter readers, and it says, my sister in law late fifties and her daughter, my niece, 30 whisper a lot when my niece entertains in her home.
Speaker 1: They're in an open kitchen that overlooks the entertainment living room area, and I've noticed this bad habit for several years, no matter whose home were in my sister in law, and her mom used to whisper in the kitchen. So this sort of rudeness, as I see it, seems to be an adopted trait down the genealogy line. Is it rude to whisper?
Speaker 1: I I definitely do think it's rude. I think that no matter what I mean, even even when someone starts to lower their voice at the Emily Post Institute, I'm like, What are they talking about me? What are they saying? How come I can't hear it? All of a sudden, all these negative thoughts pour into my head that probably there talking about just something like personal something that we
Speaker 2: often say in our business training at the Emily Post Institute. In the absence of other information, people's interpretation often defaults to the negative. If two people are whispering over there, they're probably whispering about me. It's it's not an uncommon perception
Speaker 1: exactly. So you're right that the behavior is rude. Um, when you're in someone else's house, it becomes a really question as to whether or not you should say something. If you're being made to feel uncomfortable. Now I go. The route of these people are family there, people that you're gonna get together with a lot. I would probably try to talk to them at a different point in time. Maybe if you get together with your sister in law or her daughter at some point and just say, You know, I just have noticed this happening often, and I just need you to know that it makes me feel uncomfortable. And I wish it was something that I didn't see going on so much, And I think finding a way to say that I always say, you know, you don't have to take the words right from my mouth. Practiced, um, on your own. See what feels comfortable to you. You can even test it out on another friend to make sure they're hearing you right.
Speaker 1: But go for the we always say to go for the intention and explain your intention. And your intention is, is that you really want to feel comfortable and focus on having a good time with your relatives, but when this behavior comes out, it starts toe to make you feel isolated and like you aren't a part of something. And it's that's something you would rather not experience at a family gathering.
Speaker 2: I really like where you're taking this answer, which is that it's it's worth addressing if it makes you feel uncomfortable. But because you're talking about addressing someone else's behavior,
Speaker 1: it's
Speaker 2: by definition and awkward or difficult conversation. Awkward. And, um, one of our classic jokes at the institute is that you rarely have the standing to correct someone else's behavior. You might think you have standing parents often do with their Children. That's one of the very special and privileged relationships where you get to talk to somebody and really tell them what you think they should be doing in a given situation, and they
Speaker 1: parents to They seem to be able to get away with
Speaker 2: it. Although parents will tell you good luck. Your kids very quickly reach an age where maybe you don't have as much standing as you would like.
Speaker 1: Oh, teenagers on the other one is your spouse. Well, I
Speaker 2: could tell my spouse well once again Good luck. So having that difficult conversation when it comes time toe to really talk with someone else about something they're doing in your impression, I like where Lizzie starts from the intention. Be really clear with what your intention is that it comes from place, of caring about wanting the relationship to be as good as it could be. Ah, little tactic that we often suggest often in professional context, is asked permission to have the conversation. You know, there's something I've noticed that I'd like to talk with you about. Would it be okay just getting that much buy in from someone can open a door where now
Speaker 1: they have agreed to
Speaker 2: talk with you about before they even know what it is? And having
Speaker 1: like not feeling so much like telling,
Speaker 2: exactly, you've asked permission to have that difficult conversation. I also love the way you took the conversation out of the context, away from the event as it's
Speaker 1: happening. I wouldn't do it right then. I mean, maybe if if they if they have a good sense of humor, if they aren't too talk about yeah, like, you know, if you if you have a good sense of humor. If you can call them out in a way that kind of like lets them know. Hey, guys, that's what Europe thio That's okay. If you try that once and it doesn't work for the future, I would I would not try it repeatedly. Some people, yeah, some people feel like they can go for that and that that's the appropriate way to handle it and to do it over and over and over again. And it just isn't It becomes that annoying thing that you're like,
Speaker 1: It's it's You don't wanna fight bad behavior with bad behavior. You know you'd rather be the good example. And what's the one that you always say that I love so much? It's not do unto others as you would have done to you, but instead it's
Speaker 2: do unto others as they would have you do unto them
Speaker 1: as they would have you do unto them. I love that so much so if you think that they would respond better to that one. On one conversation, I say Try toe, have that. If you think that they're going to respond and pick up what you're throwing down on a quick, light, passive aggressive joke Go for it
Speaker 1: agreed. I wanna
Speaker 2: step way back and even talk about whispering. Because it is. It is one of those behaviors that a lot of people perceive is route. They're gonna be times where it's the polite thing just being quiet, talking like
Speaker 1: first, I was like, What are you talking about? You're in a movie theater and you need to get by somebody. There are times
Speaker 2: where whispers entirely appropriate, but there are definitely times where it creates the impression that a secrets being shared or someone's being excluded. And you wanna be so, so careful about giving that impression or creating
Speaker 1: that, you know, the one that also goes right along with that is if you're bilingual and you're talking in a language that not everyone present knows how to speak. Actually, some of my closest girlfriends are from Peru and Colombia, and all of a sudden they'll slip right into Spanish, and it's always one of those things were like like Oh, that's so cool. My friends could do that and then half of you is like I have no idea what they're talking about. Wait a second and they're really great about. You know, if you're like English, they jump right back to it and explain to you what was just said, that sort of thing. But it can be one of those things, especially in work environment, where if you switch to speaking in a language that not everyone around you knows how to speak, it can really be perceived just the same way as whispering that you're talking about someone that you want to say something you couldn't say to their face.
Speaker 2: Yeah,
Speaker 2: So our next question
Speaker 2: ask. My husband and I were going out for breakfast and left our home at the same time in different vehicles. Maybe they're on their way to work now. I'm just speculating. He called a friend on his cell phone to join us. E missed a traffic light and arrived a few minutes after my husband to the restaurant. When the waitress came to take my order, I was surprised to find that my husband had ordered before me and that he had ordered for our friend, too. I think that my husband should have waited for me before ordering. I also think they shouldn't have started eating before I got my meal. Is this poor etiquette?
Speaker 1: All right, let's make quick work on this one. You give your vote. Where does your vote like? I have a little
Speaker 2: patience. Pleased to the husband. Wait for people to arrive to order for themselves. Unless you plan on paying for everybody. And even then,
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't even think even then I do not want to show up to her. I mean, like, if I'm going out to eat with, you know, ah, husband or friend or somebody a husband? Because I have so many. I'm going out to eat with a spouse. Onda friend. Yeah, I do expect that they're gonna wait to order until I get there. And if by chance Okay, something happens, you took a different route, and all of a sudden there's major traffic. You're gonna be 15 minutes late. I would call and say you guys order go for it. But if I'm just, like, right behind you, and you know I'm gonna be right behind you. Yeah, The polite thing to do is to wait until everyone's their toe order. And
Speaker 2: at first I'm thinking, Well, maybe they know each other so well. It's like the same coffee and bagel. No, get it. And then it's waiting for about this. And it's the friend you don't know about the friend, too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: we rule in favor of you. They should have waited.
Speaker 1: And I also think
Speaker 2: that the question about eating as food arrives unless the people who aren't eating have really clearly said no, don't wait for me. My food's gonna be a little while coming. And clearly that wasn't said here because they started eating and she was feeling offended at this
Speaker 1: well. And it's one thing when you're at a large table, like at a wedding or something like that, and three people you know, it's always the rule of 33 people have been served, so you may begin. That's kind of the if you're in a in a bigger venue. Bigger an occasion. Yeah, when three people have been served or three people have sat down. If it's a buffet situation, then you may begin. But when it's just three of you going out to dinner, I don't think that you know, I'm with Dan.
Speaker 2: The smaller the party, the more consideration the more cohesion you're looking for exactly.
Speaker 2: You hear that? She says. You're not as ruedas you used to be. Oh, what do you know?
Speaker 2: Thanks to everyone, for sending in your questions.
Speaker 1: If you have a question, you can submit it. Thio Awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com
Speaker 1: So today's
Speaker 2: etiquette history is going to start with a question that we get asked, not infrequently when we're teaching dining etiquette at the Emily Post Institute and that's which way do I pass food around the table?
Speaker 1: What do you mean? There's like a history to this because I thought the answer was just you pass to the right just because it's easier. It's not like it's just it's easier, literally toe like hold the bowl to someone and then they serve themselves. And you know, it works that way. Pretty simply, unless you're left handed,
Speaker 2: you're already you're getting to the heart of the matter already. The
Speaker 1: reason I'm smarter than I am Absolutely. All right. Give me the history. What s a sleazy is
Speaker 2: eluding when you pass food, you are meant to pass to the right. Obviously, if
Speaker 2: if for some reason it's easier to pass left, you do. But generally speaking past food to the right. Why is that? Because when you hold the dish for the person to your right, their right hand is available to serve themselves out of that dish.
Speaker 1: Oh, they're not like zone picturing doing like a little chicken main saying where my arm is like really like t rex arms exactly in my body. And it feels
Speaker 2: so. What you've got to imagine is, if you're sitting there and
Speaker 1: so glad they don't have cameras on right now, holds
Speaker 2: it your your your right hand is there to take the serving spoon, reach across your body and serve onto your plate. Then you take the dish from the person on your left and you hold it for the person on your right. Many people are familiar with the idea that very formal service comes from the left and is cleared from the right
Speaker 1: leave on the left, retrieve on the right. That's what
Speaker 2: I was always taught absolutely and and it's it's it's pretty standard when food was brought to the table on platters. Actually, when food is served already plated, it really doesn't matter which side it comes from. But if you've got a formal dining situation where food is being brought to the table on platters. And maybe there's even two servers working with each diner, and one is clearing the place in front of the person as the next food is arriving there, clearing service from the left. The food's coming in over the left shoulder. It was brought in from there for just the
Speaker 1: reason. I'm sorry. Right now. I'm just picking, picturing like air traffic control like above you as you're seated at this table like coming in on the left. Moving. All right, Good service, Charlie. What it is like that. Okay, sorry. Keep going. No, that's That's pretty much the That's the history.
Speaker 2: That's the reason that's the concept. That's the practicality of it.
Speaker 1: And that's how it came to be
Speaker 1: something. This show. We have a slightly different segment for you. It's called Our Awesome Etiquette Rapid Fire segment, where we like to answer questions quickly with yes or no. And of course, as it comes with all etiquette,
Speaker 1: there aren't always exactly clear cut answers. So, of course, there are caveats and situations where the yes or no might get bent a little bit. But For all intents and purposes today, we're just gonna fire through these 20 questions. We're gonna try to
Speaker 2: restrain our chatty Selves and see if we can If we could be as clear as possible,
Speaker 1: Like a challenge. All right. Are you ready, Daniel?
Speaker 2: For the awesome etiquette. Rapid fire question challenge. Yes, I am.
Speaker 1: Okay,
Speaker 1: number one, do you write a thank you note. If you've opened a gift in front of the giver
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 2: Can you request RSVPs to come in via text? Yes. Do
Speaker 1: you have to have a bridal party at your wedding?
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 2: Is it okay to follow up on RSVPs a week before your event?
Speaker 1: Yes. Do you have to bring a hostess gift every time you're invited to dinner with close friends?
Speaker 2: No. When contributing to a potluck. Is it okay to ask that you're serving dish be returned to you?
Speaker 1: Yes. Is it okay to turn down a request to volunteer in your community?
Speaker 2: Yes. Do you have to let everyone touch your baby bump when you're
Speaker 1: pregnant? No. In social situations, can you put lipstick on the dinner table?
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 2: Should you always arrive early for a job interview?
Speaker 1: Yes. Do you have to respond to comments left on your social media posts.
Speaker 2: No. Do you have to get a bride and groom a gift that will pay for your plate.
Speaker 1: Know if you've been invited to someone's house, Should you reciprocate the invitation?
Speaker 2: Yes. Should you apologize for a pocket dial?
Speaker 1: Yes. Do a bride and groom have toe hand right there. Thank you. Notes?
Speaker 2: Yes. Is it rude to tell a host about a dietary restriction or allergy?
Speaker 1: No. Is taking care of personal hygiene or grooming at your desk appropriate?
Speaker 2: No. Should couples be split up when seated at a table?
Speaker 1: Yes. Do you tip your regular ups or FedEx delivery person?
Speaker 2: No. Should Sorry. Should you write a thank you note? Even if you gave your host a gift for an overnight visit?
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 1: Way. Hope that helps clear up some of your more pressing etiquette quandaries.
Speaker 2: Um, if you have any questions about anything that we've said here, feel free to send them to awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com and we will clarify in a future episode.
Speaker 1: Dan and I really love to highlight the good etiquette that's happening out there in America today. so each episode. We like to do an awesome etiquette salute,
Speaker 2: so I'd like to offer a new awesome etiquette salute. Toe. Adam Farrar, the CEO for host Gator and host Gator, is the hosting company that serves the website Emily post dot com. We also route our email through the host Gator servers, and about a week ago my Aunt Peggy called me is the talented nephew cliche. Now I t guy for the family business and said, You know, my email doesn't seem to be working right now. Can you help me with that? Sure enough, she was right. Her email was not working and it wasn't anything she was doing. Nobody in the company was receiving emails, and no one was really able to send them.
Speaker 2: So after about an hour and a half of tinkering, the service came back online. Everyone was greatly relieved. I'd for gotten about it by the time the next day, rolled around until I got an email from the CEO of host Gator Adam, and it's subject line was worth sorry and update from host Gator, and he went on to explain in the body of the email that they had had some difficulty with their servers, Um, complicated technical issues, that they were really sorry that they knew that people counted on them for their business and they knew it had been interrupted. They've got the service online fast enough again that most people in our company hadn't noticed. I had completely left it behind. And yet here he was apologizing for the mistake, assuring us that it wouldn't happen again, that he appreciated that that disrupted disruption could have been problematic and that they wanted to offer everyone had been affected. A month of free service from the company. I thought it was such a, uh, such a great example of someone taking responsibility for a mistake, apologizing for and taking a concrete step to make it better. If I was to give professional advice about how to manage an apology, well, it would have been like this, and I just can't say enough how much I appreciate. It was one of the reasons we chose host Gator. To begin with, they got great marks for their customer service and to me, what wasn't surprising to see their CEO take personal responsibility for a mistake that it affected the whole company because that's the kind of leadership that really,
Speaker 2: that really creates a culture and a community of that kind of respect. So once again, this is a Knauss. Um, etiquette salute the host gator into their CEO Adam for our for his great apology.
Speaker 1: Well, now, wasn't that better? Look at the effect of a little politeness.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening. Oh, that sounded bad. Hold on.
Speaker 1: Sometimes we need to do something really jokey with one of these. Like in unison. Singing.
Speaker 1: Ready? 123 Thank you for listening.
Speaker 1: Eyes that rude. All right. Send us your questions, your etiquette salutes or your suggestions for future podcast, too. Awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com.
Speaker 2: Or you can find us on Facebook at the Emily Post Institute. Or you can reach me on Twitter at Daniel Underscore Post,
Speaker 1: and I am at Lizzie. A Post
Speaker 1: thing
Speaker 2: is awesome Etiquette. Part of the infinite guest network from American Public
Speaker 1: Media, Theo Infinite guest network has all kinds of podcast for you to listen to, including the splendid table, dinner party, download and wits. Find them all at infinite guests dot org's. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Um,
Speaker 1: man, if I ever worn out, I gotta stop recording it.