Episode 40 - It’s Their Party

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Speaker 1: dan,

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Speaker 1: we're in a whisper both.

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Speaker 2: Is this what a whisper

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Speaker 1: booths for? I don't know

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Speaker 2: whispering, it's going

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Speaker 1: to make the show kind of

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Speaker 2: tough, maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social courtesy, old fashioned

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Speaker 2: act as host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person, real friendliness

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Speaker 1: coming up on this episode of awesome etiquette. Can you really serve french toast and burritos at your wedding?

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Speaker 1: How do you get weekly game night guests to chip in

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Speaker 1: two of your best work etiquette questions and how to handle the ear bud dilemma. Those questions plus a post script conversation about what has really changed when it comes to phone

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Speaker 2: manners,

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Speaker 2: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of Vermont public radio and is proud to be part of the infinite guest network from american public media.

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Speaker 1: I'm lizzie post

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Speaker 2: and I'm dan post Senning from the Emily Post Institute.

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Speaker 1: I think it's time that we talk with our listeners about probably one of our top five favorite things in the

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Speaker 2: world. Okay,

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Speaker 1: can you guess, come

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Speaker 2: on puppy dogs,

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Speaker 1: you slurp them down. They taste like the ocean.

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Speaker 2: I know only because last week I was indulging in this. It's oysters.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, I don't know what it is about

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Speaker 1: us or the post family

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Speaker 2: or I

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Speaker 1: am my father's daughter and my dad and I love, oysters more than anything. My sister loves them to my brother in law, love them. You love them.

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Speaker 2: The oyster bar at your sister's wedding was I think one of the most anticipated elements of that particular

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Speaker 1: nearly enough. First of all, all the pictures were being taken and I was begging dan to go get me plates of oysters so that I could scarf them down in between shots

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Speaker 2: and I kept catching peter there

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Speaker 1: who was supposed to be in all the photos.

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Speaker 1: Um, but no, truthfully dan and I are big, big fans of the oyster. Um so they're amazing. But they do bring up a lot of strange etiquette problems

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Speaker 2: and I joke about it. But when we talked about this as a potential topic, I was remembering your father going on at length about oysters and would you slurp an oyster at a business dinner and

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Speaker 1: don't get him started on. Should you put anything out for the record? We posts are always all about. Just a little bit of lemon

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Speaker 1: oyster doesn't need anything else. It's supposed to taste like the ocean. It's supposed to taste like an oyster cocktail sauce, drowns it, mignonette. Sure, but it's strong.

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Speaker 1: I don't know for me, it's just that little bit of lemon.

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Speaker 2: Just a hint of lemon. I, I saw perfect. We're both Game of Thrones, fans of Game of Thrones. The thin man puts a little vinegar outside, interesting. It intrigued me, but I'm not going there,

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Speaker 1: not what I'm going to do, save it for your french fries.

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Speaker 1: But the question does become fork or slurp. I always slurp, but probably in some company, I might, I might decide not to, what's, what's the, what's our business seminar take on it? What do we say to people when we do this question in business etiquette seminars,

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Speaker 2: defer to your host, watch your host for cues. If they're sharing a passion for seafood with you and they're, but they're going to use their, their oyster fork, go for it, follow their cue.

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Speaker 2: Generally speaking, your father loves to offer the dispensation here. He thinks that part of the pleasure of a good oyster and I agree with him entirely are those delicious juices and one of the skills of

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Speaker 1: shucking

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Speaker 2: an oyster is managing not to crack the shell so that juice doesn't get away that you don't crumble up a bunch of shell into so you can really enjoy that juice and um a good clean slurp. Hopefully you managed not pour it all over your face, but I think it's entirely appropriate to take the shell to your mouth and

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Speaker 1: do you, But but you do you wait for your host to make sure that that's what their

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Speaker 2: business circumstance or situation. Yes, I would watch my host for cues if I was hosting. If I was sharing this, this passion with with someone else, I would encourage them to try picking it up with their hand and and slurping it

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Speaker 1: if you get them served at the table where they obviously come with a fork because most restaurants want to give you the option,

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Speaker 1: what would you do? Because I always wind up just slurping as long as I'm with family or friends,

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Speaker 2: put me in the slurp camp. Although you bring up an interesting point. There are a couple of funny eh tickets around eating oysters and one of them is that the oyster fork will oftentimes appear on the right hand side of a place setting

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Speaker 2: and usually forks appear on the left. It's that, that little shellfish fork, that's

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Speaker 1: The one teeny tiny

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Speaker 2: creeps over onto the right hand side of the plate. That's

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Speaker 1: just where it goes

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Speaker 2: where to set your oyster fork first. Little bit of oyster etiquette.

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Speaker 1: Believe peter post corrected us that we got that wrong in one of our earlier podcast, I think I said the fish fork and I meant the oyster fork correction correction

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Speaker 2: correction.

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Speaker 1: We are fallible. Um So here was the problem that I ran into the other week actually, I turned to my sister to kind of see what she was going to do.

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Speaker 1: Um but I'm pretty picky about how my oysters taste and if they're, if they don't taste fresh like the ocean, I don't really want to eat them. Um it's, I've

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Speaker 2: got it. I've got to tell a little story. Last week on my honeymoon I was grabbing these, these oysters and had opened some up and was looking at one and it was, it was that freshness that um blew me away. I was expecting something. A little clammy had been, it had been a little while since I'd had an oyster. So

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Speaker 1: you weren't thinking, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was a whole nother world anyway, I can appreciate that flavor. Mattering and being something you would anticipate and really care about. Sorry to interrupt back to the story.

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Speaker 1: The oysters arrive and they are kind of yellowish and I and they're big too. They're really big oysters. Now, I'm definitely a fan of, of Louisiana, gulf

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Speaker 1: goes brackish oysters which are really

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Speaker 2: big and plump

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Speaker 1: and they're they're salty, they're delicious. But these, so I'm not I'm not afraid of a big oyster, but

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Speaker 1: it was the color that threw me off a bit and I wasn't sure what, but everyone at the table, there had been like 10 people that ordered them and they were all scarfing them down so I was like, okay, they must be good. And I took a bite and it really, it didn't taste like the ocean. And I was I was like, oh, that's that's not what oysters taste like to me. And so I wasn't sure. And I kind of leaned over to my dad, I was like, dad, I'm not sure they taste great, but everyone else is eating them and I don't want to be rude. And he goes try another one maybe. It was just that one, and I got a second one. It didn't taste good. And I got third one. Didn't taste good. And finally I was like, okay, that's half my dozen or half of my half dozen gone. I'm not going to eat anymore. I didn't think they were going to make me sick. It wasn't that kind of a flavor, it was just the water

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Speaker 1: that clearly they had lived in didn't make them taste good and I wasn't putting the mignonette and the

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Speaker 1: cocktail sauce on them like everyone else at the table. And I noticed my sister was also not doing it and we kind of gave each other the look of like, yeah, this isn't what we're used to and so I just followed her lead and I didn't say anything to anybody else about it, but I just kind of went, you know, just didn't finish them and I felt bad not finishing them. But what I couldn't decide

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Speaker 1: was whether or not I should tell the server why I didn't finish my oysters because I had told the server how much I love oysters and here I am not eating them.

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Speaker 2: So big picture. Two thoughts occurred to me one um the safety trumps etiquette. If you had thought it had really gone bad, obviously you wouldn't be compelled to try them. So that said if it was just a question of, you know, these aren't, these aren't great, they're not um to me it would depend a little bit on how not great they were

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Speaker 2: if I was just having a dinner with my sister or you with your sister, your father, I might say something. I might get the server's attention. I I like the way you handled the situation where you looked around, you know, other

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Speaker 1: people enjoying these things,

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Speaker 2: impact this is going to have on these other people trumps my, my right in this situation to bring this up and get a get a fresh plate or get something.

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Speaker 1: And I might have mentioned something away. Like I might have gotten up to go to the restroom or something and said something there, but I just didn't feel it. But this was like high end restaurant. I was really surprised they were serving oysters that were that

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Speaker 2: The one sort of purse idea I

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Speaker 1: had,

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Speaker 2: you could say to them, you know, there's something about mine, you could bring the attention. You know, I'm not I'm not sure sure that mine

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Speaker 1: six Oysters in your bushel that off. But

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Speaker 2: your sister is having that problem. Your dad's having that problem. Okay,

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Speaker 1: well with all of that, I do think that we should probably stop talking about oysters and get on to some of our listening listeners questions. Do you think so?

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Speaker 2: It sounds like a good idea.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's get on with the show.

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Speaker 2: Sure you're right, but there's so much to learn how to do. Sure there's a lot to learn, but it's worth it. And learning is easy. One way is by watching others on each and every episode of awesome etiquette, we take your questions on how to behave.

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Speaker 2: Our first question deals with serving breakfast at a wedding.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: My husband and I are involved in planning a wedding for a couple in their mid twenties. Bride's dad is totally out of the picture so far. Mom has been uninvolved in any planning despite brides efforts to get her in the loop, the couple are getting married in our backyard footing most of the bill themselves.

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Speaker 2: Here's my husband's and my dilemma. They are planning a late afternoon wedding with dinner and dancing. The menu for 75 guests is to be breakfast, burritos and french toast, served buffet style. I believe guests will have the option of choosing burrito fillings, moses, beer, possibly sangria and a non alcoholic beverage. We tried to dissuade them. How about a 10 a.m. Wedding? As we believe. This will not be remembered fondly but viewed as cheap and tacky by a number of folks who will be traveling some distance, paying for lodging and a gift.

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Speaker 2: The couple say they don't care if people think they are crazy. They seem to be going a bit for shock effect. Are we out of touch? Are we concerned about nothing. Should we drop it? Thanks Patti.

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Speaker 1: Well, patty, technically it is their party and they can breakfast if they want to.

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Speaker 2: Um

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Speaker 1: um but the reality is that bride and groom can serve anything they want to. I agree with you in that. I think that um it's

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Speaker 1: it's it's definitely not what's expected.

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Speaker 1: Um And my concerns would be more with the messy, just like if someone said they were going to serve spaghetti at their wedding, just be aware that guests are probably going to be dressed up for this and you know, I think of a burrito as hand food, but people will probably use forks and knives for these burritos. Um

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Speaker 1: But just I would if I was going to go the breakfast root for my wedding dinner, I would probably offer I think a bigger variety of more traditional breakfast. It's not that a breakfast burrito isn't known all over this country, but I would probably do like an omelet instead.

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Speaker 1: You know that definitely you eat with a fork and knife and I'd have some breakfast meats available and some fruit available to so that it's not just burritos and french

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Speaker 2: toast,

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Speaker 2: dress it up,

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Speaker 1: dress it up a little bit, but

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Speaker 1: at the same time it is their wedding and they can choose what they want. And I don't think they should worry so much. I would think that people would find it tacky if they had a cash bar that is tackier to me than

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Speaker 2: breakfast for dinner.

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Speaker 1: Breakfast for dinner, which I think is a treat.

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Speaker 2: Some people love breakfast.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And if you know, I would also think about adding something like a brunch style salad to this just to kind of bring it into that more brunch category. And to round out

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Speaker 2: the meal. It's not it's not the aesthetic choice of breakfast for dinner, but can your guests eat something, is there something comfortable for everybody that they can

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Speaker 2: feel well fed? I mean oftentimes these weddings runs from two in the afternoon until 10 at night. You're responsible for feeding people essentially to

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Speaker 1: meals and

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Speaker 2: you really want to be sure there's enough there that people are going to

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Speaker 2: and then they're going to appreciate it, that it's going to feel like a festive occasion. I love your idea of fruit salad dress up that that breakfast for dinner a little bit rounded out.

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Speaker 1: I also think that if you're looking for an explanation as for why this was the meal, I think it's pretty clear that the couple loves breakfast food. So breakfast for dinner is a treat in many families. I don't think it's too out there. Um, I'm

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Speaker 1: I would not worry so much about what everyone else is going to think about this. That that would be our answer to the question is don't worry quite so much. Just make sure that the food you offer is like we've been saying well rounded and I think that it's going to be a wonderful wedding kudos to you for helping out a young couple who clearly, um, doesn't have all the support from both families that they could use and for being there and being available and for supporting them on this big day. But we hope that answers your question patty and have a fabulous time eating french toast at this wedding.

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Speaker 1: Our next question is a really tricky situation and our writer actually gave us a follow up that makes it a little harder for them to get out of. But I really wanted to pose this question because I think a lot of people could get trapped by this one

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Speaker 1: dear lizzie and dan. Thanks for your awesome podcast. I've listened to every episode every 1 to 2 weeks, the same group of friends comes to our apartment for a game night in the afternoon that goes into the evening while I would love to trade off hosting. I have a severe cat allergy and everyone else in the game owns a cat. So we agreed that

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Speaker 1: we host every time

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Speaker 1: I love to host parties and dinners and feel good about the etiquette of those. But this has become much more complicated first when we host every week, what's our obligation to serve food and beverages? They will regularly ask us for snacks and go through everything that we provide quickly.

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Speaker 1: They also drink 5-6 large bottles of soda water between them every week. Normally I would never, in a million years ask for help paying for something that I served to a guest. But this is starting to take a financial toll and decrease my enjoyment of the evening. If others hosted, we would be sharing the burden and I'd feel very differently.

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Speaker 1: Additionally, when is it appropriate to cook and eat our own food? The group speak on getting take out every week from a nearby restaurant with each person paying their share. But again, this is getting expensive. I would love to just cook a simple meal for myself while the group is there. But I don't feel comfortable cooking and eating food when I have guests without offering some to them and I definitely don't have the time energy or money or frankly the interest in cooking for everyone so frequently.

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Speaker 1: Finally, is there a polite and appropriate way to ask people to clean up after themselves? We regularly spend time after their departure, cleaning up, take out wrappers, dirty plates, etcetera. My husband says I should just get over it and that we're obligated to serve our guests food and drinks and to eat the costs.

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Speaker 1: He believes firmly that it would be inappropriate for us to cook for ourselves or even eat food. We already cooked

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Speaker 1: without offering some

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Speaker 1: thanks for any help. You can offer anonymous update on the situation. I showed my husband this letter and he decided that we should talk to the group right as they were leaving. He told them that we were spending too much money on them and that we would like everyone to contribute cash or snacks please. It was really awkward and resulted in a bunch of people saying we can just drink water.

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Speaker 1: Any recommendations on how to fix this

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Speaker 1: as well as resolved the original problem.

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Speaker 1: Oh my goodness.

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Speaker 2: So

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Speaker 1: you guys are definitely in a pickle.

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Speaker 2: There's a couple of layers to the situation.

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Speaker 1: There really is. I think this is the media culpa sorry, we didn't handle this. Right, let's start over.

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Speaker 2: I like that idea. And you know, everyone needs a fresh slate every once in a while.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes you just gotta

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Speaker 2: call it a Mulligan, come call it what you will.

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Speaker 2: First of all, I'd like to commend you on hosting. It's great that you've got a friend group that likes getting together, enjoys each other's company enough that this would be the kind of problem you're having. I think these are great kinds of problems to be having. Um but let's let's start from the beginning and break down the question that you asked

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Speaker 2: into a few different parts. One, I think that your husband's instincts are right, I wouldn't cook for myself in front of guests and you even start to get into that borderline territory if you prepare food ahead of time, that you then serve yourself because you're in your own home.

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Speaker 2: I could see bringing a take out meal that I prepared to a party where people were going to be ordering food maybe as a way to save a little money, but doing that out of your own kitchen might be a little tricky. Um it just might seem like you're, you have some kind of advantage that other people don't have. Although I wouldn't worry too too much about that

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Speaker 2: as far as the burden, the cost burden on providing drinks for people. Um

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Speaker 2: I really like the idea of suggesting a potluck. Um, but there might be a better way to do it than to suggest that as people are leaving. Um, so it seems like your, your suggestion is coming in response to an immediate feeling or problem as opposed to being something that you thought out ahead of time that you're suggesting as a way to make the situation better.

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Speaker 2: I would suggest trying to revisit that conversation, but doing it not as people are walking out the door, but as they're in a position to respond positively and affirmatively to anything that you come up with together.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's probably time. I mean this is a group that meets regularly. So I think saying, hey guys, I'd love to talk about the structure of our game night

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Speaker 2: and that's a great way to open that conversation up, recognize

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Speaker 1: that, you know, I'm so grateful that everyone comes to our house because I wouldn't be able to go to your house is I think, recognizing that that is a part of it.

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Speaker 2: I like that you're coming back to that initial cat allergy. The reason the reason that

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Speaker 1: this is happening at all, and also stating how much you love the game night, remind them that the big part of it is that you want to do this and you want to do it successfully,

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Speaker 2: yep, that you don't want this to stop and you don't necessarily want it to stop happening at your house

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Speaker 1: and this is the part where you then can say, but I do feel like it would be really great if we could start doing this as a potluck evening and we can rotate what dishes people bring that way. No one feels like they're always bringing the entree or the, you know, dessert or something like that.

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Speaker 2: I like to make it fun to see if you can relate the food to the games being played. I don't know, the cones of engineer

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Speaker 1: idea, I love that idea.

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Speaker 2: Some other people might have some good ideas also, who knows, maybe who knows what else is going to come up when you start approaching it like this, it sounds like this is a good group of friends, there are some cost to hosting a little bit of cleanup afterwards

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Speaker 1: that I think she's not going to get away from.

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Speaker 2: I don't either serving people soda water or water. I think that there are some things that you're going to do as a host with people in your home and offering people something to drink and and preparing to do a little bit of cleanup afterwards, I think is is part of the mental preparation that that you and your husband are going to take on hosting this event.

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Speaker 1: I think so, but I do think having that, having that conversation candidly respectfully

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Speaker 1: and again, like we said, sandwiching it with all of the things that you know and love about the situation, I know we can't host it other people's houses and I'm really grateful that you all come to our house each week.

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Speaker 1: But I would love it if we could just change the structure of it, just so that it's a little bit more spread out as if we were hosting at other people's houses every now and again, I think that that would be a perfectly reasonable conversation to have with people and you know what, it might take them a week or two to get on board or they might choose to leave the game. And

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Speaker 1: the fact of the matter is is that what they don't understand is there's already a problem with this, this problem exists for you and it's a burden for you and it's not so much fun anymore for you. And I think that you need to take ownership of that rather than feel guilty about that because it is not your place to make this happen and pay for everything every single week,

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Speaker 1: groups like this, whether it's a book club, whatever it is, like you said traditionally, they would be hosting at other people's houses. You would spread the

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Speaker 1: the love slash

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Speaker 2: burden

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Speaker 1: around

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Speaker 1: Anyway, we hope that that helps you have a direction in which to move with your group and we certainly hope that you have a lot more fun game nights in your future

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Speaker 2: game on,

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Speaker 2: we're meeting. Right,

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Speaker 2: right,

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Speaker 1: right,

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Speaker 2: right.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna meet at 10.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 2: Hi lizzie and dan dan congrats on your wedding. I hope it was highly enjoyable for everyone involved. Thank you so much. It certainly was,

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Speaker 2: the question continues. I have a question for you both about pre meeting communication. Recently I arranged an informational interview with someone I hadn't met before on the day of I thought about sending an email to her in order to confirm that the meeting was still on but wasn't sure that that was necessary since it was on both of our calendars

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Speaker 2: about an hour later she emailed me to confirm and to trade cell phone numbers. So my question is when is it necessary or suggested that I confirm meetings? Should I always share my cellphone number? Additionally, are the rules different when it is for a friend date. I have some friends who always confirm and some who don't thanks in advance for the advice beth

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Speaker 1: beth when it comes to friends. I always think it's a good idea to confirm. I mean, I I just don't mind this idea of confirming. We all do have crazy schedules these days and sadly, I think we live in a world where it's a lot more common to cancel last minute. Um My roommate had someone text her at eight o'clock saying great, I made dinner reservations for 9 15

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Speaker 1: Then texted her at 8:45. Sorry I'm going to cancel. I mean that's the kind of world we do live in nowadays. People really do kind of fly by the seat of their pants so I think it's always good to confirm as to when you should. I think it depends on when the meeting is set for and when it was arranged. So um when it comes to work I might aim for 3-8 working hours before the meeting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah,

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Speaker 2: a

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Speaker 1: day to a half a day and it depends if I set a meeting with dan for 10 a.m. On or I set the meeting, I talked to him at 10 am on monday morning for a meeting at four p.m. I probably don't need to confirm

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Speaker 1: Because we work so closely together, I might remind him at noon or at two. Hey we still

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Speaker 2: on for four.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, something like that. But it doesn't have to be quite so formal. Um But if I set a meeting on monday morning for thursday afternoon, I might confirm with him thursday morning or late Wednesday afternoon that that's still a good time for us, especially if it's not

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Speaker 1: heavy duty meeting. If it's something that could easily be moved. We have schedules where a lot of the times an interview might come up or there might be something more pressing that needs to come first and so we really try to balance the priority of the meeting and the kind of seriousness of the meeting with the schedule that we're facing and dealing with. And I think that that's kind of the best you can do in terms of giving your cellphone number. Obviously

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Speaker 1: if you think it's necessary always provide that extra contact info

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Speaker 2: if it's going to work as a backup but you're not expected to give out your personal cell phone number every time you have a business meeting. Obviously

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Speaker 2: I like the direction you're taking this question that the general parameters I think are really smart. The short short answer I would give is

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Speaker 1: if there is any

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Speaker 2: question in your mind about the meeting is going to happen or how it's going to happen or if this person is likely to a friend. And the parameter of is it,

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Speaker 2: was it scheduled a long time ago? So should I check in, has it been weeks and weeks? Has it been a week? Has it if the question starts to arise in your mind

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Speaker 2: getting that certainty and establishing it with the other person is the beginning of really good communication.

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Speaker 1: And the other thing that I would say is that if you have someone who consistently does this and you find it annoying. Please get over it.

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Speaker 1: This is them just being good and checking in and I totally understand. I've had those, those emails come in where you're like, yes of course we're still meeting like I haven't said anything different.

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Speaker 1: That's you having a moment on your own. Don't carry that over to someone else who's just diligently doing their job and making sure

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Speaker 1: that the time they've scheduled with you is still working for you.

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Speaker 2: And on the flip side, how many times have we all been saved by that because someone did

00:23:49

Speaker 1: that. We're still on for that live

00:23:50

Speaker 2: Radio interview in 15 minutes. Right. Oh of course. Absolute. I've been waiting all day for that. Well that would be a little white lie.

00:23:57

Speaker 1: Exactly. So beth

00:23:59

Speaker 1: always a good idea to confirm. Keep it up. We think it definitely makes sense and it's definitely good etiquette.

00:24:07

Speaker 1: I love this next question because I so feel for our listener and it's a hard place to be and I really want to encourage her to keep at it, keep going. Hi dan. And lizzie first, thank you so much for teaching me how to behave as a young urban professional. Your podcast provides so much useful etiquette advice for how to conduct myself at work,

00:24:28

Speaker 1: professional cocktail parties and dinners and life generally. There is one area where I would like some guidance. I moved to Washington D. C. Last year to work as a college counselor for a small college counseling, nonprofit organization, seven full time employees, four of which are college counselors.

00:24:46

Speaker 1: I've been with the organization for about nine months now. I'm 23 years old

00:24:51

Speaker 1: and only have a bachelor's degree. My three other colleagues, the counselors are in their late twenties or mid thirties and all hold at least one masters degree over the past few months. My colleagues have made snide remarks about me being on staff in passing. They have mentioned to me that I'm not qualified or only partially qualified for the position.

00:25:11

Speaker 1: Also because this is my first job in the college counseling profession, some of my colleagues dismiss ideas. I have to improve our program based solely on my lack of experience. I spoke to my supervisor about this and she said she hired me because she knew I could do the work and has commended me for having done a stellar job thus far.

00:25:31

Speaker 1: How can I tactfully show or tell my colleagues

00:25:34

Speaker 1: that I am indeed qualified for the position? How should I respond or react? When my colleagues mentioned even jokingly that I'm not qualified for the position. Thanks in advance for your help. Best daniel

00:25:48

Speaker 1: and my apologies for some reason when I first read this, I thought it was Danielle. So Daniel I apologize for referring to as she earlier.

00:25:55

Speaker 1: Mhm.

00:25:56

Speaker 2: Well,

00:25:57

Speaker 1: but congrats on the job from

00:25:58

Speaker 2: one day and to another from LP Also. Exactly, congratulations. Um that first job is such a big deal. And and even if it's not your first job, if this is your chosen profession and you're getting a start on it, that's also a really important step. And

00:26:15

Speaker 2: I'm reminded of something I said to puja very recently as she got started in her profession as a counselor,

00:26:21

Speaker 2: everyone's got their first case, everyone's got their first client, everyone's got their first day on the job, week on the job, year on the job

00:26:29

Speaker 1: and the job success on the job,

00:26:32

Speaker 2: You're gonna have good days, you're gonna have bad days and you're going to have him as a new person, you're going to have him as a person with a master's degree and you're going to have him as a person with 30 years of experience under your belt. And

00:26:42

Speaker 2: there is nothing to do here except be the best that you can be at your job and at your work. And it sounds like you're doing that and that's going to ultimately have the impact that that you want the most

00:26:52

Speaker 1: what I loved was that was that now I'm stuck

00:26:55

Speaker 2: on, what

00:26:56

Speaker 1: I loved is that Daniel said that he had already talked to a supervisor who gave

00:27:01

Speaker 2: him

00:27:01

Speaker 1: all the good confidence in the world. Listen, I hired you for a reason

00:27:06

Speaker 2: they're doing

00:27:07

Speaker 1: a good job Daniel, you hold that close.

00:27:10

Speaker 2: Exactly and and and that's your boss, that's the person who matters and it's good for you to know who the authority is in your place of work and that you're comfortable and you're talking with them and that you're that you've got good communication with that person. So

00:27:22

Speaker 1: the question kind of becomes,

00:27:24

Speaker 1: does Daniel now knowing that because he can hold that strongly in his own psyche, but knowing that,

00:27:31

Speaker 1: does he confront the coworkers or does he not, what do you, what are kind of the roots he could go because he could do either. He really could.

00:27:38

Speaker 2: I think that for me it would depend on whether or not I thought that what they were doing was really undermining was really intentionally designed to be snide and undermining and intentional. Sometimes something can be undermining, it can feel like it's, it's really hurtful, but the

00:27:54

Speaker 1: person doesn't realize it's

00:27:55

Speaker 2: not necessarily intentional. And, and there are different ways I think to shed light on that and bring light to that situation. Whereas if I really feel someone is, is trying to hurt me, I'm thinking about a different set of, of actions and recourses and those might include talking to that supervisor. You know, this continues, it feels like it's starting to feel like harassment, it's starting to feel like

00:28:14

Speaker 2: bullying and it could get, it could get to that extreme. I don't think that's what we're talking about here. To me this sounds like um less intentional, although potentially as hurtful and maybe just bringing someone's awareness to what they're doing is going to be enough to help help stop it or help address the situation

00:28:31

Speaker 2: and you could do that by trying to keep it light. It sure feels like I'm new here, but you

00:28:35

Speaker 1: Know, I've been here for nine months

00:28:37

Speaker 2: and I really like this job, X, y or z keep it, keep it positive.

00:28:41

Speaker 2: Um You could also just choose not to address it, you could just try to wait it out um and at some point you will have been there a year, you will have been there a year and a half, two years, maybe you'll start working on that graduate degree yourself. Um and those same people become allies when you start looking for programs and looking for people to talk to about how to navigate those programs

00:28:59

Speaker 1: for me. I would think that the best course of action would be to defuse the snide comments as much as possible when they do come up

00:29:08

Speaker 1: and hold that confidence that your supervisor has given you um really close to your heart and really remind yourself of it every time these people say it because two things are gonna happen, one, you are going to overtime prove yourself

00:29:23

Speaker 1: and that does, it was one of the hardest things for me to learn when I came to Emily post to work was

00:29:29

Speaker 1: I knew that I could do this job, I knew there were going to be things I had never done before, that I was going to have to learn and that I might mess up at first, but I knew I could do this job

00:29:39

Speaker 1: and I had to hold on to that when you know it was it was a strange place at sometimes when you're dealing with

00:29:46

Speaker 1: um other co workers who had been there for a long time absorbing a new generation of family members coming in. Our company didn't exactly know how to handle the whole um next generation coming in and wow, she's working with her dad and her aunt and her sister and then her cousin joined too. And

00:30:03

Speaker 1: well are they favoring the family or are they actually favoring you know, the other employees to protect them or to?

00:30:11

Speaker 1: It was like we weren't sure what was gonna happen and everyone was kind of not. It was a big uncertainty all around. So I think the more that you can just hold close that I was hired for a reason and I'm going to get through this and over time I will prove myself because I'm good at what I do

00:30:27

Speaker 1: and the solutions I come up with do work when they are tried, it might take a while for your colleagues to try them.

00:30:34

Speaker 1: But I think you'll get there

00:30:37

Speaker 1: in terms of defusing if you want to say things back to those comments that you get.

00:30:43

Speaker 1: I think if someone ever tells you that you're not qualified again, I think you can quite strongly but gently and politely say, well I was qualified enough to get hired and that does remind the other person that

00:30:56

Speaker 1: they aren't actually so much attacking you as they are attacking the supervisor that hired you and

00:31:01

Speaker 2: they are questioning

00:31:02

Speaker 1: that person's judgment which is very different

00:31:05

Speaker 1: if someone does share a comment about your work that you're not happy with, you can always just say thanks for sharing that or and then redirect you know I'd love to get your thoughts on this.

00:31:14

Speaker 1: Oh daniel. I just don't think your degree is really strong enough for you to have the experience to come up with that solution. Well thank you for that but I'd love to get your thoughts on this. You know just changing, redirecting, changing

00:31:29

Speaker 2: the conversation as much as possible.

00:31:31

Speaker 1: Yes exactly.

00:31:32

Speaker 1: Um The other one that I do love and maybe it's just a little bit of the jerkin

00:31:37

Speaker 2: me that comes out

00:31:39

Speaker 1: is that when someone says something to me that is so like did you really just say that just like blink twice and smile

00:31:48

Speaker 2: really

00:31:49

Speaker 1: like blink twice and smile and then she and then ask like a work related question or say well I'm really looking forward to seeing that report.

00:31:57

Speaker 1: You know something like that

00:31:58

Speaker 2: I'm receiving the information that you're giving me thank you

00:32:03

Speaker 1: okay we're just going to take a minute and let that hang in the air and now we're

00:32:08

Speaker 2: moving on.

00:32:10

Speaker 1: Um

00:32:11

Speaker 1: like dan if the problem persists. You got to bring it up to your supervisor again eventually and just say this isn't stopping. Can you help me devise a plan of action to help take care of this

00:32:20

Speaker 2: and once again, congratulations on the new jobs and we wish you many years of great success

00:32:26

Speaker 1: Right out of college, 23 years old with a great job. That is so encouraging to hear about

00:32:33

Speaker 2: Hello lizzie. Hello dan. I just realized that the greeting scans to the tune of Hello Darkness, my old friend. So now that's going through my

00:32:40

Speaker 1: head

00:32:41

Speaker 2: now I'm gonna have to go back and listen to Anyway, thank you so much for your podcast. The whole family listens every week in the car on the way to school and it's great fodder for discussions, particularly our nine year old daughter Simone.

00:32:54

Speaker 2: Hi Simone,

00:32:57

Speaker 2: I have a question and would appreciate your verdict. What's the etiquette for wearing earbuds or other headphones in public? The specific circumstance I have in mind is this when I'm out walking, I usually listen to music or podcasts through my smartphone and my headphones of choice are earbuds. Sometimes I stopped by something like a quick service restaurant or convenience store. Of course when I'm about to interact with other people, I pause what I'm listening to so I can give my full attention to the other person.

00:33:22

Speaker 2: What should I do with the earbuds themselves when I do that I have at times done several different things. One removed both earbuds, draped them around my neck for convenient access when I'm done with my transaction

00:33:32

Speaker 2: to removed one ear bud and left one in to signal that I'm available for conversation. This feels like the most convenient option for me and therefore feels like it's probably the least polite after not taking out the earbuds at all.

00:33:44

Speaker 2: Number three, remove both your buds and wind up the cord to put in my pocket. This is the least convenient for me because I have to pause and do the most work when I'm finished with my transaction and I'm about to walk again. I'd love to hear your advice on any of these three options or if I'm overlooking other, more polite options. Thank you James. Kalen

00:34:03

Speaker 1: James. I loved hearing from you because we hear from you on twitter all the time. So it was really fun to get a message from you.

00:34:09

Speaker 2: Nice to see the email and I can tell you this is one that I deal with all the time. I listen to podcasts all the time. I oftentimes do it through earbuds. I listen when I'm working when I'm out and about and like you, I turn it off when I'm going to talk to somebody, I'm aware of that captive audience. I take them out of both ears and I hang them in my shirt front called

00:34:25

Speaker 1: the drape would work too. I think that's the best way to go

00:34:28

Speaker 2: depending on it. You could leave one in but you just don't want to give that other person the impression that you're still listening to the whatever it is. The awesome etiquette podcast of

00:34:38

Speaker 1: course,

00:34:39

Speaker 2: because you're doing the good thing and you just want to be explicit and clear about that. It's about communicating that to the other person and just getting that second year but out because I tuck it in my shirt collar, but wherever it's gonna, I don't think you need to wind it up and put it away. Every time I so sympathize, every time I wind up my earbuds, I'm like it's going to take forever to untangle it and get these out again and it really does.

00:34:59

Speaker 2: Um so yeah, just pop them out, hang them over your shoulder, you're in great shape and thanks for listening. Thanks for the questions. And once again, hi Simone, I got some pictures up there of me and indian garb. If you check the facebook and the twitter, you hear that? She says you're not as rude as you used to be.

00:35:18

Speaker 2: What do you know?

00:35:21

Speaker 2: Thanks

00:35:22

Speaker 1: to everyone for sending in your questions and remember we love updates if we answered your questions on the show or if you have a comment about one of our questions, feel free to send it in. You can also submit your question to awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com or send it in via facebook or twitter, just use the hashtag awesome etiquette. So we know you want it on the

00:35:41

Speaker 2: show.

00:35:43

Speaker 2: We

00:35:59

Speaker 1: had an

00:35:59

Speaker 2: interesting today,

00:36:00

Speaker 1: we had an interesting conversation yesterday,

00:36:03

Speaker 1: it was about cell phone etiquette and how much it's changed our general phone etiquette norms.

00:36:09

Speaker 2: It started with thinking about etiquette trends,

00:36:12

Speaker 2: Big Picture. We prepare for a good housekeeping issue that's looking at trends for over 130 years of the publishing of good houses.

00:36:19

Speaker 1: And it was interesting because the place this came from was we started with the idea that when

00:36:25

Speaker 1: we have a new kind of um avenue to explore in communication, whether it was facebook or email years ago or text messaging. Yeah, right. The way that you tend to do things is you start a lot of people start by applying the traditional thing

00:36:44

Speaker 1: to the new medium. So how

00:36:46

Speaker 2: many,

00:36:47

Speaker 1: how many of you have gotten a text message from someone who's just texting for the first time, like maybe uh an elder member of your family when it's and it says dear dan wanting to talk to you about this dash mom and you're just laughing because you're like it's coming in, you know, on your smartphone, you see who the text is coming in from, you know all these things or you get the voicemail nowadays that said

00:37:12

Speaker 1: it's me lizzie calling and you're like, well I know that because it said lizzie is calling you, you know, and so how has this changed our phone manners

00:37:20

Speaker 2: and you're still leaving messages as if it's an answering machine that needs to be

00:37:24

Speaker 1: checked, records

00:37:26

Speaker 2: it on a little tape waiting for you when you get home.

00:37:28

Speaker 1: It's so funny but

00:37:30

Speaker 1: but we have kind of changed and dan and I noticed a couple of things that really have changed with our phone manners and we wanted to go over those with you today.

00:37:37

Speaker 2: So one of the themes that often comes up with this new tech as we say. So you look to the old manners for a guide and there comes a point where that becomes a little less useful. Some of those old manners actually become antiquated and outdated and this is what we do at the institute, we like to think about that and how how these things. So

00:37:54

Speaker 1: caller I. D. Has been the biggest one that's changed this.

00:37:57

Speaker 2: Absolutely the phones that we call from our so personally connected to the people that use them that in many ways they're they're almost indistinguishable lizzie and lizzie's phone are they go together.

00:38:09

Speaker 1: But one

00:38:10

Speaker 2: and and really the courtesy used to be always identified yourself at the start of the call. That was the courtesy whether you were initiating a call or receiving a call. You picked up the phone and you identified who you were. So the person on the other end knew who they were talking to.

00:38:23

Speaker 2: So in some ways that's a redundancy. Now we were noticing lizzie and I that you most commonly identify yourself in a way that would indicate any variance from lizzie's phone. I'm here with Tricia, you're on speaker phone in the car,

00:38:36

Speaker 1: you kind of state your situation. The other thing you do is that because you have caller I. D.

00:38:41

Speaker 1: I don't know about you, it used to be really presumptuous

00:38:45

Speaker 1: to answer the phone that was ringing exactly and say oh hi dan and the other person would be like how did you know it was me and well I have caller I. D. Oh that's creepy and weird and now it's so common when I see my mom calling me, I say hi mom, how's it going

00:39:02

Speaker 1: now? That's totally the norm and appropriate and okay

00:39:05

Speaker 1: but the one that dan's talking about the situation is the next thing that happens. It lets the other person know what the conversation that's about to be is going to happen. I can't talk for a while, but

00:39:16

Speaker 1: mom might say to you, I just want to get a head count for dinner friday night or how much you call me back when you're out of the car. It's almost like we have these mini conversations to schedule our our next conversation or just find out what each other needs that sort of thing.

00:39:31

Speaker 2: Cindy sendings learning curve on the short cell phone conversation was awesome. And

00:39:37

Speaker 1: it was it, was it a very nice, was it like a hairpin curve or was it like big, long long bell curve

00:39:44

Speaker 2: my mother who I love as much as anything in this world is famous for initiating a conversation as part of a goodbye. Alright mom. I'm on my way. All right. So that's when you get the 345 things. And so that the short cell phone conversation was a particular challenge for her. And we had to get explicit, we had to talk about,

00:40:05

Speaker 2: you know, it's, it's, it's easier to call more often if we don't talk a long time every time we call. And it's, that's, that's situational circumstantial awareness. Like she was definitely rooted in an older school of manners where a conversation is something you give the proper time.

00:40:21

Speaker 2: In my case. I often amusing pooja's phone which works through wireless and my little cabin does not have cell phone coverage. So if I'm calling out from the house, I'm often on pooja's phone

00:40:31

Speaker 2: when I make that call. Hi Patrick, this is dan on pooja's phone calling about this. And

00:40:37

Speaker 1: or if a call comes in and she's the one driving, you answer the phone and say, hey, it's dan, I'm answering his phone.

00:40:44

Speaker 2: And I used the example of speaker phone in the car because the bluetooth headset in the car is becoming so common and in the same way in business. You let people know if they're around an open mic or if there

00:40:55

Speaker 2: being projected onto a speaker somewhere else. And I think it's a courtesy in the social world also.

00:41:01

Speaker 1: So let's give our three etiquette takeaways for sort of the new, the new phone rules.

00:41:09

Speaker 2: First of all, the classic. Never make someone else feel bad that you answered your phone.

00:41:14

Speaker 1: Just

00:41:15

Speaker 2: don't pick it up. I'm at a funeral. No, it's not their fault for calling. Um, they

00:41:26

Speaker 1: didn't know where you were. I love that one so much. The second one is to always state who is with you and whether this is a good time to talk or the length of conversation you'll be able to have.

00:41:39

Speaker 2: That's that identifying the circumstances, situations.

00:41:41

Speaker 1: Exactly. And third

00:41:43

Speaker 2: offer different time to talk if that is not a particularly appropriate moment. So

00:41:49

Speaker 2: hi mom, I'd love to talk about this. Can I give you a call when I get home

00:41:52

Speaker 1: In 20 minutes or can I call you in three hours? Something like that.

00:41:57

Speaker 2: I'm on my honeymoon. I'll check in on

00:41:58

Speaker 1: sunday.

00:42:00

Speaker 2: But then some of you

00:42:01

Speaker 1: might get to use that one. Alright, well we hope that that helps make phonetic. It just a little bit easier for

00:42:07

Speaker 2: everyone

00:42:30

Speaker 2: each

00:42:34

Speaker 1: week we love to end our show on an etiquette salute. And don't forget we always need more salutes. So think of the best person in your life who is the just epitome of etiquette and tell us about them. But this week's salute

00:42:50

Speaker 1: is um, I thought just one that was just slightly different.

00:42:54

Speaker 1: Mm hmm

00:42:55

Speaker 2: It begins. Hi Lizzie. Hi Dan. I travel a good bit across the Gulf coast every month for work and spend many nights per week. And hotels away from my family. Last week I celebrated my 34th birthday and to do something special. My husband, I splurged on a hotel room at the historic Roosevelt Hotel in New Orleans.

00:43:13

Speaker 1: So beautiful.

00:43:14

Speaker 2: Since I already spent so many nights in hotels every week. I was really worried this wouldn't be special. Thinking a hotel is a hotel.

00:43:21

Speaker 2: Not so when checking in, they already knew we were celebrating something special. Thanks to the hubs and two are delighted surprise. An hour or so after we got settled in the room, we heard a knock on the door and were presented with a complimentary bottle of champagne alongside a decadent chocolate dessert.

00:43:38

Speaker 2: The best part was a birthday card from the hotel that the entire front desk and concierge staff had all signed. I felt like the belle of the ball, even at a large hotel that was quite busy on a saturday night, they somehow took the time to make a single guest feel so special. My thank you's to the Roosevelt hotel in new Orleans Louisiana. Just had to share one happy birthday girl, jen, in Mississippi

00:44:03

Speaker 2: jen, you've made us to happy etiquette podcasters. That is such a nice story and you're so right. A hotel is not a hotel is not a hotel,

00:44:12

Speaker 1: I'm telling you. New Orleans knows hospitality. I have never been to a city where hospitality is more

00:44:20

Speaker 1: the theme everywhere you go. It is the most welcoming on point City I've ever been to in terms of taking care of guests, it's fantastic.

00:44:29

Speaker 2: Well, I know you're a big fan and I'm going on my first trip this fall and I'm so looking forward to it. Can't wait to talk to you some about that trip as it gets closer and closer and who knows, maybe we'll pay a visit to the Roosevelt. Sounds like they are on point. Well, now wasn't that better? Look at the effect of a little politeness.

00:44:49

Speaker 2: That's our

00:44:50

Speaker 1: show for today. We're off to eat some oysters. But first as always, thank you for listening and spending some of your day with us. We hope you have a wonderful rest of your week

00:44:59

Speaker 2: and don't forget there's no show without you. So send us your questions, your etiquette salutes and your suggestions to awesome etiquette Emily Post dot com.

00:45:07

Speaker 1: Remember if you like what you hear, don't be shy, tweet it, facebook post it and of course you can subscribe on Itunes and leave us a review

00:45:14

Speaker 2: on facebook where the Emily Post Institute on twitter. I'm at Daniel underscore post

00:45:19

Speaker 1: and I'm at lizzie a post or you can visit our website Emily Post dot com.

00:45:24

Speaker 2: Our theme music was composed and performed by bob Wagner awesome etiquette is produced by the amazing hans butto

00:45:51

Speaker 2: the truth of the problem

00:45:53

Speaker 2: and so