Episode 402 - Many Grads

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Speaker 1: maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social courtesy that's old fashioned

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Speaker 2: act as host and hostess. They know that courtesy

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Speaker 1: means showing

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Speaker 2: respect, thinking of the other person, real friendliness. Hello and welcome to awesome etiquette where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. On today's show, we take your questions on group graduation parties, giving older relatives car rides and who should sit where

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Speaker 2: speaking another language in a public space and sharing one family members news with the rest of the family for awesome etiquette sustaining

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Speaker 1: members. Our question of the week

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Speaker 2: is about paying to replace something

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Speaker 1: you didn't break

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Speaker 2: plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a postscript on the history of etiquette books. All that's coming up,

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Speaker 2: awesome

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Speaker 1: etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily

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Speaker 2: Post Institute. I'm

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Speaker 1: lizzie Post and I'm dan post Senning,

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Speaker 1: hey,

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Speaker 2: how's

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Speaker 1: it going, lizzie Post? It's, it's

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Speaker 2: going, I feel like it's going a little

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Speaker 1: faster than my brain can keep up with

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Speaker 2: it this weekend

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Speaker 1: next. We have a lot going

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Speaker 2: on right now, both at the institute

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Speaker 1: and in our, in our personal lives. I know, I know getting ready for a big

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Speaker 2: Memorial Day

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Speaker 1: weekend.

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Speaker 1: I know

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Speaker 2: I'm headed off, we're actually both headed

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Speaker 1: to the same place but at

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Speaker 2: opposite

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Speaker 2: parts of the

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Speaker 1: week. I am headed down to Martha's vineyard

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Speaker 2: to help my other side of the family

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Speaker 1: opened up their property

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Speaker 2: down there or

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Speaker 1: our property down there. I'm really excited. This

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Speaker 2: is a job I've

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Speaker 1: Wanted since I was probably like 20 years old and I'm finally a trainee and so I'm stoked to be going down and being with the rest of the crew, which are a bunch of my

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Speaker 2: other cousins.

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Speaker 2: I love that image just so you

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Speaker 1: know you and a bunch of fully grown functioning adults all in trainee roles with your aunts and uncles and mothers and fathers all supervising.

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Speaker 2: It'll be awesome

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Speaker 1: just

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Speaker 2: so the audience can

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Speaker 1: get a picture. It's

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Speaker 2: this really

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Speaker 1: fabulous

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Speaker 1: farm property. So fields that lead out to dunes and then

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Speaker 2: the beach. I mean it's like

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Speaker 2: gorgeous as you could imagine tons of woods behind

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Speaker 1: you. So it's really private and

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Speaker 2: we will be on hands and knees

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Speaker 1: scrubbing these houses and making

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Speaker 2: sure that they have

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Speaker 1: enough, you know, detergent and

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Speaker 2: sheets and

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Speaker 1: towels and anything that's broken is gonna get fixed and there's going to be painting projects and

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Speaker 2: carpentry

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Speaker 1: projects and I'm sure lawn mowing project all that and we do. We have a wonderful couple who are caretakers of the property

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Speaker 2: who also

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Speaker 1: aid in all of this.

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Speaker 2: But there's a

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Speaker 1: number of houses on the property. So there is a lot to manage and it's, it's just really exciting.

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Speaker 1: two of like my closest

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Speaker 2: cousins, like the

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Speaker 1: cousins, I'm closest to,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna be staying in one of

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Speaker 2: the houses with them.

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Speaker 1: One of them manages all of us and that's her first year doing it and the other one who's like another brother, he's like another dan in my life even though no one could ever really be like another dan in my life. I'm just so excited to go and like

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Speaker 1: get into the dirty

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Speaker 2: hard work of

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Speaker 1: like cleaning these houses and making them awesome and

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Speaker 1: and living the dream. I wanted

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Speaker 2: to live for

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Speaker 1: Like a good well yeah I'm almost 40. So good like 20 years now. Good trainee good.

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Speaker 1: And then you're gonna skedaddle out of there and we're probably on ferries that will

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Speaker 2: cross each other like

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Speaker 1: literally ships. Not in the night

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Speaker 2: but during the

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Speaker 1: day.

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Speaker 1: No I have the weekend with his family. There's a big gathering of all her cousin level family and it's all about their kids summer birthdays so we're calling it like the birthday gathering and artists included

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Speaker 2: within

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Speaker 1: that. But so

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Speaker 2: are the

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Speaker 1: twins. And so

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Speaker 2: is I think someone coming up from

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Speaker 1: boston. I

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Speaker 1: don't even

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Speaker 2: know everybody. That's gonna be a

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Speaker 1: lot of birthdays

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Speaker 2: to celebrate. And then

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Speaker 1: we'll move from there directly

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Speaker 2: down to Mv and we

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Speaker 1: will we'll just miss you And

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Speaker 2: that will be a bit of a bummer. But also we're very excited to be headed south and headed to the shore.

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Speaker 1: I don't know it'll

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Speaker 2: be it'll be really, really awesome.

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Speaker 1: But you started this call talking about a lot of work that we have going on and it's true we do but I want to talk about something that

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Speaker 2: is the

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Speaker 1: fruition of work that was done a while ago and we finally got to see the results

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Speaker 2: of it this last

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Speaker 1: week and it was so cool as opposed you were on the Rachel ray show,

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Speaker 1: I

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Speaker 2: was, I was on the

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Speaker 1: Rachel ray show and we

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Speaker 2: filmed this back at

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Speaker 1: like the end of september or october of last year and

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Speaker 2: it was that long

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Speaker 1: ago, I would have guessed

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Speaker 1: the middle of the winter, but we had a

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Speaker 2: couple of suggested

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Speaker 1: air dates for it that came and went and then it was going to air on monday, but then it, or Tuesday and then

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Speaker 1: I got the news that they were doing a rerun and instead it was going to air on thursday. So it did air on thursday dan, you were kind enough to find it online through Just a quick search and I get too nervous to actually watch them back so I filter

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Speaker 2: it through.

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Speaker 1: No,

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Speaker 2: no, I heard you play it in

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Speaker 1: the background during our phone call yesterday and that was enough.

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Speaker 1: Um but I'm really glad that you really liked it and that

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Speaker 2: they had done such a

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Speaker 1: fabulous job, you said with the b roll the

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Speaker 2: images of Emily and telling a little bit of her

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Speaker 1: history and stuff. So

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Speaker 2: I was really excited to hear

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Speaker 1: that. Well I want to take this opportunity to encourage any of

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Speaker 1: our audience who are listening right now. If you are at a computer or if you're thinking of this, when

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Speaker 2: you get to a computer, do

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Speaker 1: a little google search, google search, lizzie Post, Rachel ray

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Speaker 2: video, then

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Speaker 1: you should find it as a pretty recent high search result is about a four minute clip and

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Speaker 1: you keyed

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Speaker 2: on lizzie, the thing that

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Speaker 1: I was so excited to see and I didn't realize you had done the amount of work that you had done, getting them B roll footage of

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Speaker 1: you, for example, turning a page from an old photo

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Speaker 2: album and

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Speaker 1: taking, taking video footage of that. Then they splice it together. That B roll that you

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Speaker 2: talked about. But

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Speaker 1: they ended up presenting Emily

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Speaker 2: Post as a historical

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Speaker 1: figure and you and your work

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Speaker 2: at the Emily Post

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Speaker 1: Institute in a very well produced, very seamless little

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Speaker 1: opening segment that I thought

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Speaker 1: was as

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Speaker 1: professional and quick a

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Speaker 2: look at the history of Emily

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Speaker 1: Post and the current

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Speaker 2: state of the Emily Post Institute is

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Speaker 1: anything I've seen in a while.

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Speaker 2: I thought it was really

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Speaker 1: good and I

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Speaker 2: appreciate the time

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Speaker 1: that I know you spent putting that together because video

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Speaker 2: work product,

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Speaker 1: it takes work to make it look

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Speaker 2: easy and good

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Speaker 1: and it looked easy and good.

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Speaker 2: Oh good.

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Speaker 1: I'm really, really glad we'll definitely audience if you

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Speaker 2: if you get a chance to

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Speaker 1: to hit it up on google, go for it.

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Speaker 1: And

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Speaker 2: it was really good

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Speaker 1: Seeing this one come to fruition, but

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Speaker 2: that wasn't the only thing we had

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Speaker 1: going on this week. We

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Speaker 2: were testing a new

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Speaker 1: product and finally got it to

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Speaker 2: work. That was

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Speaker 1: incredible. I had my first meeting

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Speaker 2: with one of our train, the trainer graduates as I move into a position

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Speaker 1: of managing our train,

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Speaker 2: the trainer graduates and that

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Speaker 1: probably was the most fulfilling

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Speaker 2: Thing of the week. I, I came off that call on cloud nine just really

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Speaker 1: excited about that program and the

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Speaker 2: people who tend to take that

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Speaker 1: program, you do get to

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Speaker 2: deep dive etiquette

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Speaker 1: with them. They, it's really fun to reminisce about their trainings

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Speaker 1: and this

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Speaker 2: particular graduate has been with us for almost

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Speaker 1: 10 years. So it was really incredible to,

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Speaker 2: to chat with her.

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Speaker 1: And then we

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Speaker 2: also received back the next version

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Speaker 1: of the edits

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Speaker 2: along with the illustrations and they're almost finalized form. So it was like all this stuff going on left, right and center

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Speaker 2: and at the same time you and I, we're podcasting and we're, you know, catching up with each other and sending each other files and all the normal kind of like day to day stuff that goes on. It just felt like such a week.

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Speaker 1: I want to acknowledge all

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Speaker 2: that. And I also want to

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Speaker 1: point out that you buried the lead because I know

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Speaker 2: you were excited

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Speaker 1: to talk to our trainer

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Speaker 2: but you just

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Speaker 1: teased

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Speaker 2: the role that you're

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Speaker 1: stepping into

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Speaker 2: helping to manage our trainer community and

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Speaker 1: that's a decision

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Speaker 2: we've made here over the last month

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Speaker 1: and I am so

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Speaker 2: excited about it and I don't want to talk too much about it right now, but

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Speaker 2: I do just want

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Speaker 1: to put a little pin in that and say let's return

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Speaker 2: to it at

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Speaker 1: a future intro to the show

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Speaker 2: and talk more about it because I

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Speaker 1: am as excited about

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Speaker 2: that as you are and I am

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Speaker 2: just delighted that one of

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Speaker 1: your first calls with

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Speaker 2: with one of our trainers went so well

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Speaker 1: and sort of started

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Speaker 2: you off on that foot thinking

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Speaker 1: about this project,

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh! You know what else happened this week?

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Speaker 1: Do tell,

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Speaker 2: I know, I know we're running long on our intro here,

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Speaker 2: but I also got to play golf for the first time this season,

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Speaker 1: down up here in Vermont and I, that also filled me up so

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Speaker 2: much, it was right after that trainer calls, so it's feeling really, really good.

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Speaker 2: But it was, it was amazing. I was paired up to play with one of my favorite girlfriends, her husband, who, I mean, I was the officiant at their wedding

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Speaker 1: joined us

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Speaker 2: and a guy that

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Speaker 1: I used to babysit for his

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Speaker 2: Kids also joined us. So it was like just so much fun, it was a really fun round and a shot of 47 which if you don't play golf

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Speaker 1: and you don't know my game is

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Speaker 2: really good? I've got to say the best thing about gaining

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Speaker 1: weight is that my golf game

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Speaker 2: is so much longer.

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Speaker 1: Um, but

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Speaker 2: It was 47

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Speaker 1: is not typical

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Speaker 2: for me. I have a hard

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Speaker 1: Time breaking 50 on a round of nine and a 47 was just, I was stoked.

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Speaker 2: So thank you for

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Speaker 1: indulging a little golf brag

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Speaker 2: excitement.

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Speaker 1: That's alright. You squeezed in a 47 lucky number for Pomona

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Speaker 2: college go say jen's

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Speaker 2: okay, Okay, there you go. But it was also, it was so nice to be out socializing

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Speaker 1: and to, to

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Speaker 2: be really getting back into the

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Speaker 1: groove of life here in Vermont. So I hope, I hope you all are having some similar experiences out there. Well speaking of grooves, we have another groove we need to get into here. Oh,

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Speaker 2: I think we should get into the question

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Speaker 1: groove. Let's

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Speaker 2: do it.

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Speaker 1: Awesome etiquette is here

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Speaker 2: to answer your questions.

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Speaker 1: You can email them

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Speaker 2: to awesome etiquette

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Speaker 1: at Emily post dot com. Leave us a voicemail or

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Speaker 2: Text at 8:00

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Speaker 1: 285 a

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Speaker 2: Kind that's 8:00

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Speaker 1: two,

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Speaker 2: 546

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Speaker 1: three. You can also reach us on social media on

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Speaker 2: twitter. We are at

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Speaker 2: instagram. We are at Emily Post

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Speaker 2: facebook were awesome

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Speaker 1: etiquette. Just

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Speaker 2: remember use the hashtag

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Speaker 1: awesome etiquette with

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Speaker 2: your post so that we know you want your question on

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Speaker 1: the show.

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Speaker 2: Our

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Speaker 1: first question is

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Speaker 2: titled grouping grads, Are you ready for it cuz

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Speaker 1: I'm ready.

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Speaker 2: Good afternoon lizzie and dan longtime

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Speaker 1: listener here. I'm

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Speaker 2: proof that you can

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Speaker 1: indeed teach an old dog

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Speaker 2: new etiquette tricks. I

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Speaker 1: love that. My

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Speaker 2: question is about

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Speaker 1: Families that have combined to honor more than one

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Speaker 2: graduate at their

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Speaker 1: open house.

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Speaker 2: An invitation

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Speaker 1: I received celebrates

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Speaker 2: two young

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Speaker 1: people who have been friends for many

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Speaker 2: years.

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Speaker 2: My dilemma

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Speaker 1: is that while I'm close to number

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Speaker 2: one, I'm not acquainted

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Speaker 1: With the # two or her parents,

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Speaker 1: the open

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Speaker 2: house is being held at

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Speaker 1: The home of # two.

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Speaker 2: My question is, what is the gift

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Speaker 1: protocol under these

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Speaker 2: circumstances? I fully

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Speaker 1: intend to give a generous gift and

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Speaker 2: card to grad

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Speaker 1: number one. I'm

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Speaker 2: thinking I'll bring a card

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Speaker 1: for number two and

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Speaker 2: enclose a gift card to a coffee

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Speaker 1: shop or amazon

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Speaker 2: in a smaller amount. I don't have an issue celebrating both of them, but I doubt number two will know who I am. Do I include a line in the card saying

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Speaker 1: Neighbour of # 1?

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Speaker 2: The easy solution

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Speaker 1: would be to skip the

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Speaker 2: open house and just give

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Speaker 1: Number one her gift privately.

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Speaker 2: Too late promised

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Speaker 1: to attend. Already

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Speaker 2: sincerely want to be party

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Speaker 1: proof for

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Speaker 2: PS. What's the least

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Speaker 1: amount of time was must stay at an open

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Speaker 2: house. Oh, I'm hesitant to

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Speaker 1: called wannabe party pooper an old dog learning

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Speaker 2: a new etiquette trick but

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Speaker 1: I feel like that

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Speaker 2: sometimes myself at all when I get to this PS

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Speaker 1: I particularly

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Speaker 2: identify with want to be a party because this is oftentimes

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Speaker 1: the nature of my etiquette questions,

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Speaker 2: what are the bare minimum social expectations

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Speaker 1: that I need to meet

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Speaker 2: here, qualify as a polite person?

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Speaker 2: Um,

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Speaker 1: let's start with that simple

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Speaker 2: one, lizzie post,

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Speaker 1: I think of

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Speaker 1: an open

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Speaker 2: house party is being a come when you want

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Speaker 1: leave, when you want

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Speaker 2: kind of affair

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Speaker 1: and in general,

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking about an hour as a timeframe that

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Speaker 1: plus or

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Speaker 2: minus is okay, depending on how you feel about it, you could probably stay a little longer than that if you were having a great time and wanted

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Speaker 1: to, you

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Speaker 2: could probably cut it a lot

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Speaker 1: shorter than that if

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Speaker 2: you weren't having a great

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Speaker 1: time and didn't want to or

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Speaker 2: had other obligations, but

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Speaker 1: I think of that

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Speaker 2: hour as sort of a,

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Speaker 1: not a

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Speaker 2: target, but just a rough time frame.

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Speaker 1: It's like, it would be good if I

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Speaker 2: stayed about an hour that would be

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Speaker 1: really bringing myself

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Speaker 2: and and really fully participating

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Speaker 2: without there being a firm etiquette

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Speaker 1: rule, what do you

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Speaker 2: think of that?

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Speaker 2: I think that makes sense. I think for an open house party

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Speaker 1: and

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Speaker 2: graduation parties,

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Speaker 1: it's funny, they could kind of

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Speaker 2: be either, it might be something that has more of a meal focus to it, where I think then

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Speaker 1: You're, you're pushing into the two

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Speaker 2: hour category for

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Speaker 1: being reasonable, but

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Speaker 2: an open house party can often have a drop in and take

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Speaker 1: off kind of vibe to

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Speaker 2: it and

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Speaker 1: in

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Speaker 2: fact it does have a drop in and take off kind

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Speaker 1: of vibe to it.

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Speaker 2: You might want to just

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Speaker 1: check with some other folks who are

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Speaker 2: going and maybe

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Speaker 1: even grad number

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Speaker 2: 1's family who you know

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Speaker 1: better and our neighbors of

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Speaker 2: just to find

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Speaker 1: out if there is some kind of a meal or

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Speaker 2: if there's gonna

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Speaker 1: be, sometimes there's like, you know, a cake or something like that that that people are going to kind of rally around

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Speaker 2: a little bit.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't have a speech

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Speaker 2: or something. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there might be a speech, something

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Speaker 2: like that. So

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Speaker 2: just

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Speaker 1: worth asking if the other participants know roughly what

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Speaker 2: kind of the party timeline

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Speaker 1: or the plans of, of marks that the hosts want to hit in the party are so that you, you make sure you're not ducking out before them unless

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Speaker 2: of course you have to

00:14:32

Speaker 1: and that's a little different.

00:14:33

Speaker 1: But

00:14:34

Speaker 2: I like the

00:14:34

Speaker 1: idea of trying to go and really spend some, spend some

00:14:38

Speaker 2: time and and

00:14:39

Speaker 1: say hello and congratulate the graduate, you know, as well as the one that you don't and make sure that you

00:14:45

Speaker 2: speak to the host and

00:14:46

Speaker 1: in this case that is someone that you don't know,

00:14:49

Speaker 1: but you can introduce yourself and say, you know, I'm neighbor of grad number one and I'm so grateful you invited

00:14:54

Speaker 2: me, thank you so much.

00:14:56

Speaker 1: Really proud of all the kids, you know, a simple little

00:14:58

Speaker 2: conversation like that is

00:14:59

Speaker 1: perfect. Um, and then I think once you've, you know, hit the marks and as long as there aren't specific things about the party that are supposed to be marks,

00:15:09

Speaker 2: the party host is

00:15:10

Speaker 1: trying to hit um, that you can, you can leave before that or leave once you've done that

00:15:16

Speaker 1: um dan when it comes to these gifts,

00:15:18

Speaker 2: I got to say, I feel like

00:15:19

Speaker 1: old dog is like an old dog

00:15:23

Speaker 2: who could teach

00:15:23

Speaker 1: etiquette tricks

00:15:24

Speaker 2: because this all

00:15:25

Speaker 1: looks good to me that you get

00:15:27

Speaker 2: the card and the gift for graduate

00:15:29

Speaker 1: Number one Who, you know,

00:15:31

Speaker 1: and

00:15:31

Speaker 2: then you also do a

00:15:32

Speaker 1: card and a little something, whether that's a gift card or some nice fresh cut flowers,

00:15:36

Speaker 2: something simple

00:15:38

Speaker 1: for the

00:15:39

Speaker 2: grad number two

00:15:40

Speaker 1: that you don't know, I think that's perfectly fine and I love

00:15:42

Speaker 2: the signing of it with

00:15:44

Speaker 1: your name and then maybe in parentheses under a neighbor of, you know, graduate number one. And I think that that will help in case somebody didn't know who you were

00:15:53

Speaker 1: or forgot throughout the course of the event and is opening gifts and cards later on. I think that that that would really be both generous

00:16:02

Speaker 1: and

00:16:03

Speaker 2: appropriate.

00:16:04

Speaker 2: I

00:16:05

Speaker 1: couldn't agree more. I think that we started

00:16:07

Speaker 2: off on the

00:16:08

Speaker 1: right track in terms of the thinking here

00:16:10

Speaker 2: and

00:16:11

Speaker 1: I think just filling out that thought with the idea that you're in good

00:16:15

Speaker 2: shape and flowers

00:16:17

Speaker 1: would be a nice option. A little,

00:16:18

Speaker 2: something would be a nice

00:16:19

Speaker 1: option, You might just go

00:16:20

Speaker 2: with a card,

00:16:23

Speaker 1: it's not a shower, there's no

00:16:24

Speaker 2: expectation

00:16:25

Speaker 1: of gift giving, there's not

00:16:26

Speaker 2: going to be a big

00:16:28

Speaker 1: presentation of gifts

00:16:30

Speaker 2: moment where gifts are

00:16:31

Speaker 1: going to be compared

00:16:32

Speaker 2: and exposed.

00:16:33

Speaker 2: So the

00:16:34

Speaker 1: the issue with is this person going to feel like

00:16:36

Speaker 2: they weren't

00:16:37

Speaker 1: treated as well

00:16:39

Speaker 2: or in the same way

00:16:40

Speaker 1: as this other person. I don't

00:16:41

Speaker 2: think it's likely to come up

00:16:43

Speaker 1: shouldn't be a big deal.

00:16:44

Speaker 2: And

00:16:45

Speaker 2: we're talking about high

00:16:46

Speaker 1: school graduates, they're approaching

00:16:48

Speaker 2: adulthood. I think they also are capable

00:16:50

Speaker 1: of understanding that

00:16:51

Speaker 2: people have different relationships

00:16:53

Speaker 1: to different graduates even

00:16:54

Speaker 2: if they are sharing a party

00:16:55

Speaker 1: and that it

00:16:57

Speaker 2: might make perfect sense for someone to

00:16:59

Speaker 1: be thinking differently

00:17:00

Speaker 2: about acknowledging the graduation of someone they don't know or don't know as well

00:17:04

Speaker 1: as someone that they're close to.

00:17:06

Speaker 2: I want to be party pooper to be honest. From the sound of it, it seems like you're a really great party guest like and a wonderful neighbor. We hope that you have a really great

00:17:17

Speaker 1: time at this party

00:17:18

Speaker 2: and that both graduates

00:17:19

Speaker 1: feel really

00:17:20

Speaker 2: celebrated in the benton

00:17:22

Speaker 1: household graduation

00:17:24

Speaker 2: from high school is an event

00:17:25

Speaker 1: worthy of celebration

00:17:27

Speaker 2: and the family party in Dave's is in progress.

00:17:32

Speaker 1: Mhm.

00:17:33

Speaker 2: Our next question is about etiquette and

00:17:35

Speaker 1: the elderly.

00:17:37

Speaker 2: Hello,

00:17:38

Speaker 2: we are often asked to pick

00:17:39

Speaker 1: up our elderly mother, where

00:17:41

Speaker 2: is the appropriate place for

00:17:42

Speaker 1: her to sit in the

00:17:43

Speaker 2: vehicle? She has no

00:17:45

Speaker 1: difficulty navigating either spot in

00:17:47

Speaker 2: the front with my husband

00:17:49

Speaker 1: and me in the back

00:17:50

Speaker 2: seat or in the

00:17:51

Speaker 1: backseat. So my husband and I are together in the front seat. Thank you so much. Jill

00:17:57

Speaker 2: Jill, I like that you're thinking

00:17:58

Speaker 1: about this. I remember learning that other cultures, this can actually be a really important

00:18:06

Speaker 2: decision to be made

00:18:07

Speaker 1: in american etiquette.

00:18:08

Speaker 2: It's not quite so

00:18:10

Speaker 1: much because

00:18:11

Speaker 2: you could see

00:18:12

Speaker 1: value in either space.

00:18:14

Speaker 1: And

00:18:14

Speaker 2: so I think it

00:18:15

Speaker 1: really comes down to asking your mother and finding out what she prefers and feels more comfortable with. If your goal

00:18:22

Speaker 2: is to seek

00:18:23

Speaker 1: her comfort. If it's to seek your own,

00:18:25

Speaker 2: then it might be

00:18:26

Speaker 1: more you deciding that you're going to pick

00:18:29

Speaker 2: a specific seat

00:18:30

Speaker 1: that's going to be yours

00:18:32

Speaker 2: and direct

00:18:32

Speaker 1: her to the other one, especially since you're mentioning that she doesn't

00:18:36

Speaker 2: have trouble

00:18:36

Speaker 1: navigating either spot.

00:18:38

Speaker 1: But I think either could be perfectly appropriate. A lot of people think of that front

00:18:44

Speaker 2: passenger seat as

00:18:45

Speaker 1: a real seat of honor and other people really

00:18:49

Speaker 2: appreciate kind of

00:18:50

Speaker 1: the chauffeured feeling of being in the

00:18:52

Speaker 2: backseat so

00:18:53

Speaker 1: you could you can get different opinions either

00:18:56

Speaker 2: way.

00:18:57

Speaker 2: I agree

00:18:57

Speaker 1: lizzie post. I think the important thing here is that you're honoring your mother and whether that's a clear standard over the back seat is the seat of honor. So we offer that to her or whether as lizzie says,

00:19:10

Speaker 1: there's some question about that. Some people prefer that passenger seat better view, easier to get in and out maybe.

00:19:16

Speaker 2: Um,

00:19:17

Speaker 1: it's, it's something that if I wanted

00:19:19

Speaker 2: to confer

00:19:20

Speaker 1: that honor to my mother,

00:19:22

Speaker 1: I like lizzie

00:19:23

Speaker 2: post think that asking

00:19:24

Speaker 1: her would be the best way to do that and be

00:19:27

Speaker 2: prepared for

00:19:28

Speaker 1: any answer

00:19:29

Speaker 2: and be prepared

00:19:30

Speaker 1: to

00:19:31

Speaker 1: sit in the back seat or take the backseat if she prefers the

00:19:34

Speaker 2: front because do you

00:19:35

Speaker 1: and pooch have like different standards you use with like your different parent parent sets that you would be traveling in cars with?

00:19:43

Speaker 2: Not exactly,

00:19:44

Speaker 1: except that I think that there's sort of a competition

00:19:47

Speaker 2: to take the seat that is the least honored seat if that makes any sense. If there's

00:19:53

Speaker 1: like, I've got a switch

00:19:54

Speaker 2: in the back between

00:19:55

Speaker 1: the car seats and

00:19:58

Speaker 2: mother

00:19:58

Speaker 1: will want to take it and I'll be

00:20:00

Speaker 1: like, no, no, no, let me sit in the back with the girls and she'll say no, no, no, let me do what I can take care of them. And I say no, no, no, really, you should be more comfortable take the front seat and

00:20:10

Speaker 1: eventually

00:20:10

Speaker 2: I win because I

00:20:11

Speaker 1: insist

00:20:12

Speaker 1: I was thinking about when I go and especially

00:20:15

Speaker 2: because it's starting to

00:20:17

Speaker 1: be the kind of weather where

00:20:17

Speaker 2: we're going to start doing this

00:20:18

Speaker 1: again, Vermont ng with jenny and frank

00:20:22

Speaker 2: and they're

00:20:23

Speaker 1: one of my favorite couple

00:20:24

Speaker 2: of friends and we always take

00:20:26

Speaker 1: my car because it's the roomiest

00:20:28

Speaker 2: and then

00:20:29

Speaker 1: we, we kind of now

00:20:30

Speaker 2: called it, assume the

00:20:31

Speaker 1: positions

00:20:32

Speaker 1: and

00:20:33

Speaker 2: frank is the driver

00:20:34

Speaker 1: as long as he doesn't

00:20:35

Speaker 2: have to decide where we're

00:20:37

Speaker 1: going. So he wants

00:20:38

Speaker 2: directions from the two of

00:20:39

Speaker 1: us and decision making from

00:20:40

Speaker 2: the two of us. I'm in the front seat and jenny likes to sit in back with the dog so that she can cuddle

00:20:47

Speaker 1: with sonny or

00:20:48

Speaker 2: in past years it was

00:20:49

Speaker 1: with Benny

00:20:49

Speaker 1: and I

00:20:50

Speaker 2: just love the fact that it's, it isn't quite exactly what

00:20:53

Speaker 1: you think of, but it does kind of

00:20:54

Speaker 2: break up the couple a little bit

00:20:56

Speaker 1: and I'm friends with both of them, so that's really nice. But like we all kind

00:21:00

Speaker 2: of like love our little spot,

00:21:02

Speaker 1: but we have our little thing

00:21:03

Speaker 2: with it. Like I love

00:21:05

Speaker 1: not having to

00:21:05

Speaker 2: drive and I could care less whether I'd

00:21:07

Speaker 1: be in the front seat or the

00:21:08

Speaker 2: back seat, jenny loves getting to sit with the dog and frank just doesn't

00:21:12

Speaker 1: want to make decisions,

00:21:13

Speaker 2: but loves driving

00:21:14

Speaker 1: well, okay, so you just reminded me of two other

00:21:17

Speaker 2: considerations that I couldn't

00:21:19

Speaker 1: really do come into play

00:21:20

Speaker 2: and

00:21:21

Speaker 1: I think in general you want to defer to your mother, let her

00:21:24

Speaker 2: take her pick or have the seat that

00:21:27

Speaker 1: confers the most

00:21:28

Speaker 2: honor

00:21:29

Speaker 2: a

00:21:30

Speaker 1: couple of considerations

00:21:31

Speaker 2: that would maybe

00:21:32

Speaker 1: supersede that one

00:21:34

Speaker 2: is a safety concern or

00:21:35

Speaker 1: a comfort

00:21:36

Speaker 2: or accessibility concern and we've got in the

00:21:39

Speaker 1: body of this question that

00:21:40

Speaker 2: that's not an issue here. So

00:21:41

Speaker 1: we sort of skipped over that. But I think it's worth saying explicitly if someone has a real preference for a particular reason or if there is a

00:21:48

Speaker 2: safety concern,

00:21:50

Speaker 2: use that.

00:21:51

Speaker 2: The second is that oftentimes that passenger seat is the best seat for a good navigator. And there are

00:21:56

Speaker 1: times where it

00:21:57

Speaker 2: might be

00:21:59

Speaker 2: good or important to have

00:22:01

Speaker 2: your

00:22:02

Speaker 1: partner, your spouse, the person who's the dependable

00:22:04

Speaker 2: navigator in that

00:22:05

Speaker 1: passenger seat. And that might be something that's worth explaining if that's

00:22:08

Speaker 2: factoring into your decision

00:22:10

Speaker 1: making or it

00:22:10

Speaker 2: might be another

00:22:11

Speaker 1: consideration that's worth

00:22:13

Speaker 1: worth acknowledging

00:22:15

Speaker 2: at the start and making

00:22:16

Speaker 1: part of your decision

00:22:16

Speaker 2: making.

00:22:17

Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely

00:22:19

Speaker 2: Jill. This is a

00:22:21

Speaker 1: great question

00:22:22

Speaker 2: and I actually hope

00:22:23

Speaker 1: we get a lot of fun feedback on this one. I feel like it could be one that has some good opinions on it.

00:22:28

Speaker 1: Jill whether you end up in the front seat or the back.

00:22:31

Speaker 2: Thank you so much for

00:22:32

Speaker 1: submitting this question.

00:22:34

Speaker 1: Perhaps the poor driver never learned the proper way to drive.

00:22:38

Speaker 1: You have more opportunity than he,

00:22:40

Speaker 1: you have the opportunity to learn the right way to drive

00:22:44

Speaker 1: the opportunity to avoid the mistakes and have it

00:22:48

Speaker 1: acquired by others.

00:22:54

Speaker 1: Our

00:22:54

Speaker 2: next question is titled

00:22:56

Speaker 1: bilingual. A bother

00:22:58

Speaker 2: dear

00:22:58

Speaker 1: dan and lizzie. If you're bilingual,

00:23:01

Speaker 2: is it rude to speak a foreign

00:23:03

Speaker 1: language among family and friends in

00:23:05

Speaker 2: a public space?

00:23:06

Speaker 1: For instance, my family's chinese, I

00:23:08

Speaker 2: did not hesitate to speak

00:23:10

Speaker 1: chinese to my grandmother since she did not speak english.

00:23:13

Speaker 1: I would tend

00:23:14

Speaker 2: not to have a conversation

00:23:16

Speaker 1: in chinese with my parents or any younger generation who do speak english in a

00:23:21

Speaker 2: prolonged or

00:23:22

Speaker 1: boisterous manner

00:23:23

Speaker 2: in a place such as an airport where

00:23:25

Speaker 1: people can't help

00:23:26

Speaker 2: noticing other people around

00:23:27

Speaker 1: them.

00:23:28

Speaker 1: I'm not sure if this is because it seems rude to other

00:23:31

Speaker 2: people who might

00:23:32

Speaker 1: hear but not

00:23:34

Speaker 2: understand us or

00:23:35

Speaker 1: purely because it marks

00:23:36

Speaker 2: us as other, which is sometimes not

00:23:39

Speaker 1: desirable in a public

00:23:40

Speaker 2: space. Sandra

00:23:42

Speaker 1: Sandra, thank you so much for this question.

00:23:44

Speaker 2: I question,

00:23:45

Speaker 1: I found myself reflecting on it in all

00:23:48

Speaker 2: kinds of different ways.

00:23:49

Speaker 1: I live in

00:23:50

Speaker 1: very bilingual family and navigate a

00:23:52

Speaker 2: lot of bilingual

00:23:54

Speaker 1: situations and I'm often the

00:23:56

Speaker 2: person who doesn't

00:23:57

Speaker 1: speak the what for me is

00:23:59

Speaker 2: a second or

00:24:00

Speaker 1: 3rd language but is often times the

00:24:02

Speaker 2: first language

00:24:02

Speaker 1: for members of my family

00:24:05

Speaker 1: and I really appreciate when they make an effort

00:24:07

Speaker 2: to speak english

00:24:08

Speaker 1: around me. I think

00:24:09

Speaker 2: that the real

00:24:10

Speaker 1: courtesy is that among a group, you try to find the language that's understood by the greatest number of people

00:24:17

Speaker 2: that makes it the easiest

00:24:19

Speaker 1: for everyone to

00:24:19

Speaker 2: participate.

00:24:21

Speaker 2: I

00:24:21

Speaker 1: think that is relatively intuitive to most people. I think it's something that's relatively well understood and that it can be really easy to

00:24:28

Speaker 2: map that

00:24:28

Speaker 1: expectation

00:24:30

Speaker 2: onto public behavior

00:24:31

Speaker 1: or situations like an airport where

00:24:34

Speaker 2: you

00:24:34

Speaker 1: find yourself in close

00:24:36

Speaker 2: enough proximity

00:24:37

Speaker 1: with other people that it feels like

00:24:39

Speaker 2: it would be more polite to be using a common language.

00:24:43

Speaker 2: I want to really give permission to use whatever language you find the easiest for

00:24:48

Speaker 1: you and the people you're

00:24:49

Speaker 2: communicating with in those

00:24:50

Speaker 1: situations

00:24:51

Speaker 2: that there is nothing rude about speaking.

00:24:55

Speaker 2: Uh, and I don't call

00:24:57

Speaker 1: it a different language, but a language that not everybody is familiar

00:25:00

Speaker 2: with in a public space, in a place where there's no

00:25:02

Speaker 1: reasonable

00:25:03

Speaker 2: expectation

00:25:04

Speaker 1: that they should be invested

00:25:06

Speaker 2: in the content of the conversation that you're having, where

00:25:09

Speaker 1: the only

00:25:10

Speaker 2: offense that you might offer is them not

00:25:12

Speaker 1: liking the fact that

00:25:13

Speaker 2: someone is speaking a different language and if you and your heart are true and know that you're not talking

00:25:20

Speaker 1: about those people, another

00:25:21

Speaker 2: thing

00:25:22

Speaker 2: that you could do

00:25:22

Speaker 1: that would be rude

00:25:23

Speaker 2: to use your

00:25:24

Speaker 1: knowledge of another language

00:25:25

Speaker 2: to talk about or to someone

00:25:28

Speaker 2: in a way that you wouldn't want them to hear.

00:25:30

Speaker 2: You don't need to worry about it at all.

00:25:33

Speaker 1: It's really up to them

00:25:35

Speaker 2: to negotiate how they feel about people speaking a different language in

00:25:38

Speaker 1: a public

00:25:39

Speaker 2: space. I do hear your awareness of that

00:25:43

Speaker 2: issue of not wanting to other yourself that feeling like a

00:25:47

Speaker 1: like something that's not

00:25:48

Speaker 2: desirable to you. And

00:25:49

Speaker 1: I think it's worth

00:25:50

Speaker 2: acknowledging that as an own impulse in yourself

00:25:53

Speaker 1: and and

00:25:53

Speaker 2: acknowledging where that feeling is coming from. But I don't think there's a

00:25:57

Speaker 1: question of etiquette

00:25:58

Speaker 2: about it being rude, what kind of choice you make about

00:26:02

Speaker 1: it?

00:26:02

Speaker 1: Yeah,

00:26:03

Speaker 2: that's the total personal decision as to whether you feel confident and comfortable doing it or even safe doing it in that

00:26:09

Speaker 1: manner

00:26:10

Speaker 2: versus not. I

00:26:12

Speaker 1: remember because growing

00:26:13

Speaker 2: up, my best

00:26:15

Speaker 1: friend's house, they

00:26:16

Speaker 2: all spoke the

00:26:17

Speaker 1: mother, the parents spoke

00:26:18

Speaker 2: french fluently

00:26:19

Speaker 1: and the kids all

00:26:20

Speaker 2: spoke french and

00:26:22

Speaker 2: my friend

00:26:23

Speaker 2: really didn't like it when her mom

00:26:25

Speaker 1: would speak french in front of

00:26:26

Speaker 2: her friends because she knew

00:26:28

Speaker 1: that we couldn't

00:26:29

Speaker 2: understand what she was saying

00:26:31

Speaker 2: and I always appreciated that

00:26:34

Speaker 1: the mom, it's

00:26:35

Speaker 2: easier for her to speak french and I frankly I liked it. I thought it was really cool that she came from my house where there were

00:26:41

Speaker 1: two languages that got spoken regularly, but

00:26:44

Speaker 2: I really appreciated

00:26:45

Speaker 1: that my friend's mom who french is a

00:26:48

Speaker 2: much easier language for her

00:26:50

Speaker 2: even though

00:26:51

Speaker 1: she speaks fluent,

00:26:52

Speaker 2: english, her

00:26:53

Speaker 1: french is what she would prefer to be speaking. Um and

00:26:56

Speaker 2: obviously comes more

00:26:57

Speaker 1: naturally for her and

00:26:58

Speaker 2: so she would speak

00:26:59

Speaker 1: french to her daughter and

00:27:00

Speaker 2: ask her a question

00:27:01

Speaker 1: and my friend would respond in english and I kind of

00:27:05

Speaker 2: love that because I ended

00:27:06

Speaker 1: up picking up a bunch of french from, from that and hearing the back and forth and stuff like that.

00:27:12

Speaker 1: Not always the easiest

00:27:13

Speaker 2: way to go for everybody,

00:27:15

Speaker 1: but that was one of my main experiences with a bilingual family

00:27:19

Speaker 1: and kind of how they did things and

00:27:21

Speaker 2: and also a little bit of insight

00:27:23

Speaker 1: into their perspectives on it. You know, the kids, I

00:27:26

Speaker 2: knew why the mom

00:27:26

Speaker 1: was doing it, but the kids found this kind of discomfort or disease when they were hosting their friends and that was kind of an interesting etiquette point for them. It didn't bother me

00:27:37

Speaker 2: The guest one bit,

00:27:38

Speaker 1: but I did think it was, it was kind of an interesting perspective to

00:27:42

Speaker 2: have.

00:27:43

Speaker 2: I

00:27:43

Speaker 1: find those dynamics within a group or within a home so interesting and

00:27:49

Speaker 2: I often

00:27:50

Speaker 1: absolutely find myself a visitor with PJ's family where oftentimes

00:27:56

Speaker 2: hindi is the language that's spoken in the

00:27:58

Speaker 1: home, the language that the family members are most comfortable with

00:28:03

Speaker 1: and I'll be if not the only soul english speaker, one of the only soul english speakers and

00:28:11

Speaker 1: I've learned a little bit of hindi

00:28:13

Speaker 2: enough that I can pick

00:28:14

Speaker 1: up

00:28:14

Speaker 1: the major words and some of the basic grammar and phrases, but I I lose the thread of a

00:28:20

Speaker 2: conversation very

00:28:21

Speaker 1: quickly.

00:28:22

Speaker 1: I like to offer that guest dispensation. I like to say,

00:28:26

Speaker 1: please

00:28:27

Speaker 2: talk whatever language

00:28:28

Speaker 1: is most comfortable. Don't

00:28:29

Speaker 2: worry about including

00:28:30

Speaker 1: me all the time. If

00:28:32

Speaker 2: this is the most

00:28:33

Speaker 1: natural, convenient, easy thing for

00:28:35

Speaker 2: you, I

00:28:35

Speaker 1: appreciate you making the effort

00:28:37

Speaker 2: to talk english

00:28:38

Speaker 1: for me on

00:28:39

Speaker 2: my behalf. So I'm

00:28:40

Speaker 1: included.

00:28:42

Speaker 1: But

00:28:42

Speaker 2: don't feel like you have to do it all

00:28:43

Speaker 1: the time. I don't find it rude if you're in the kitchen navigating, getting dinner ready just because I'm there, it doesn't mean you

00:28:49

Speaker 2: have to do that in english

00:28:50

Speaker 1: and

00:28:51

Speaker 1: I think that's a nice dispensation or, or consideration to offer as a guest if

00:28:56

Speaker 2: it's something that you don't

00:28:57

Speaker 1: mind because I think it can also ease

00:29:00

Speaker 2: that that question

00:29:01

Speaker 1: in the minds of other people a little bit

00:29:03

Speaker 1: Lizzie Post. There was one other

00:29:04

Speaker 2: thing that I wanted to mention

00:29:05

Speaker 1: here just because I'm working very hard with a five year old and an almost three year old on just taking it down a level and I'm thinking a lot about inside voices. Outside

00:29:19

Speaker 2: voices. I

00:29:21

Speaker 1: do think there's an etiquette consideration whether

00:29:24

Speaker 2: whatever

00:29:25

Speaker 1: language we're speaking on our boisterousness level in particular environment. I think there are some places where absolutely your boisterousness level can be much higher and it's going to be

00:29:36

Speaker 2: tolerated, encouraged

00:29:38

Speaker 1: not rub anyone the wrong way. I think there are other

00:29:40

Speaker 2: places

00:29:42

Speaker 1: together. Yes, the gate for a plane, People are trying to keep an ear out on the announcements. People are a little on edge. Anyway where

00:29:51

Speaker 2: again,

00:29:52

Speaker 1: whether it's your five year old or whether

00:29:55

Speaker 2: you're speaking

00:29:56

Speaker 1: chinese or hindi or

00:29:57

Speaker 2: english. That paying attention

00:29:59

Speaker 1: to your inside voice and just maintaining a tone and volume that's coordinated with the people around you is

00:30:05

Speaker 2: always good etiquette.

00:30:06

Speaker 1: Absolutely Sandra, thank you so much for this question. We really appreciate the chance

00:30:12

Speaker 2: to provide

00:30:13

Speaker 1: an answer and I would also really appreciate

00:30:15

Speaker 2: hearing like our last

00:30:16

Speaker 1: question what our listeners have to think about this topic.

00:30:20

Speaker 1: Pete has developed his skill in communication through words

00:30:24

Speaker 1: just as you can by being alert to words

00:30:28

Speaker 1: by using words that say exactly what you mean by building your vocabulary.

00:30:40

Speaker 1: Our

00:30:40

Speaker 2: next question is titled Family

00:30:41

Speaker 1: Secrets. It begins dear awesome etiquette team.

00:30:46

Speaker 2: I'm a new listener to

00:30:47

Speaker 1: Your podcast series. I've begun to suspect that two plus

00:30:51

Speaker 2: years of pandemic

00:30:51

Speaker 1: isolation have not done a lot to improve my

00:30:54

Speaker 2: understanding of modern

00:30:55

Speaker 1: etiquette and I agree with your basic premise that kindness and

00:30:59

Speaker 2: honesty are so

00:31:00

Speaker 1: needed now more than ever. So here

00:31:03

Speaker 2: goes,

00:31:04

Speaker 2: I

00:31:04

Speaker 1: Come from a large family of six

00:31:06

Speaker 2: siblings. I

00:31:07

Speaker 1: am the only female plus my brother's

00:31:09

Speaker 2: grown Children, grandchildren

00:31:11

Speaker 1: et cetera.

00:31:12

Speaker 2: We do not

00:31:12

Speaker 1: live geographically close to each other

00:31:14

Speaker 2: and the pandemic

00:31:15

Speaker 1: simply made the distance more

00:31:17

Speaker 2: pronounced.

00:31:18

Speaker 2: The issue

00:31:18

Speaker 1: I have now encountered more than once is some version of a major life event,

00:31:22

Speaker 2: a marriage, a divorce

00:31:23

Speaker 1: and new baby

00:31:25

Speaker 2: of which no

00:31:25

Speaker 1: announcement has made its way to me via any personal means.

00:31:29

Speaker 1: As an example, I've gotten a

00:31:31

Speaker 2: hint that a marriage

00:31:32

Speaker 1: has occurred but when I

00:31:33

Speaker 2: ask someone with direct

00:31:34

Speaker 1: knowledge if this has happened, the

00:31:36

Speaker 2: response is something like

00:31:38

Speaker 1: you'll have to ask this relative yourself or I

00:31:42

Speaker 2: don't know

00:31:43

Speaker 2: when the person

00:31:44

Speaker 1: asked turned out to know very well.

00:31:46

Speaker 2: I

00:31:47

Speaker 1: am observing then that these major family events, all

00:31:50

Speaker 2: part of a public records somewhere are

00:31:52

Speaker 1: supposed to be held

00:31:52

Speaker 2: secret and confidential.

00:31:54

Speaker 1: Until

00:31:55

Speaker 2: when question

00:31:56

Speaker 1: mark, question mark, question mark.

00:31:58

Speaker 1: And

00:31:58

Speaker 2: if I do find out via

00:32:00

Speaker 1: reliable member of the family, am I also

00:32:02

Speaker 2: supposed to act like I do

00:32:03

Speaker 1: not know what I know if asked to keep the

00:32:06

Speaker 2: information

00:32:06

Speaker 1: confidential. So

00:32:08

Speaker 2: my dilemma as the

00:32:10

Speaker 1: sister or sister in

00:32:11

Speaker 2: law or the aunt or the niece in any of these situations

00:32:16

Speaker 2: is what behavior do etiquette

00:32:18

Speaker 1: rules suggest

00:32:19

Speaker 2: when I wish to honor the new marriage or new baby or offer support in times

00:32:23

Speaker 1: of difficulty but

00:32:24

Speaker 2: have not been informed directly

00:32:26

Speaker 2: or how should I respond

00:32:28

Speaker 1: inter personally

00:32:29

Speaker 2: if I'm attending

00:32:30

Speaker 1: some family gathering

00:32:31

Speaker 2: where I'm suddenly introduced to my brother's new spouse

00:32:34

Speaker 1: of some two

00:32:34

Speaker 2: years or ask how a

00:32:37

Speaker 1: wife or husband is

00:32:38

Speaker 2: doing to find out a divorce

00:32:39

Speaker 1: has happened.

00:32:41

Speaker 2: Please know that while no huge argument has occurred. I am probably an outlier in my family as politically liberal

00:32:47

Speaker 1: and a single female.

00:32:49

Speaker 2: My siblings and I are getting older and we now have only are very elderly mother in assisted living. So maybe the family

00:32:56

Speaker 1: glue has

00:32:56

Speaker 2: come unstuck.

00:32:58

Speaker 2: I alas hate

00:32:59

Speaker 1: social media.

00:33:00

Speaker 2: So perhaps I'm left out due to that choice.

00:33:03

Speaker 2: In any case. I want to understand what etiquette options there are so that at least I can be fully prepared for any encounters which may

00:33:10

Speaker 1: occur

00:33:11

Speaker 1: and

00:33:11

Speaker 2: do not hesitate to tell me the hard parts too.

00:33:14

Speaker 1: Perhaps etiquette advises acceptance

00:33:16

Speaker 2: in a situation where one is not included by

00:33:18

Speaker 1: either default

00:33:19

Speaker 2: or design.

00:33:21

Speaker 1: I wish to cause no hurt

00:33:22

Speaker 2: nor harm and yet I need to honor my own values

00:33:25

Speaker 1: too.

00:33:26

Speaker 1: Thus your advice

00:33:27

Speaker 2: is deeply appreciated,

00:33:29

Speaker 1: awesome etiquette. Newbie,

00:33:30

Speaker 2: awesome etiquette newbie.

00:33:33

Speaker 2: It's, it's a really interesting question because it's like I really appreciate at the end newbie that you have let us know that

00:33:42

Speaker 1: you don't like social

00:33:43

Speaker 2: media that

00:33:44

Speaker 1: there might be some

00:33:46

Speaker 2: like personal differences between you and your family? You,

00:33:49

Speaker 1: you reference yourself

00:33:50

Speaker 2: as kind of an outlier

00:33:52

Speaker 2: even though there's been

00:33:53

Speaker 1: no big arguments or anything

00:33:54

Speaker 2: like that.

00:33:55

Speaker 2: I'll admit that like you asked for some of the hard parts too. I'll admit that I, I throw up a question mark as to why

00:34:02

Speaker 1: people are

00:34:03

Speaker 2: acting like they can't share

00:34:05

Speaker 1: the news when the

00:34:06

Speaker 2: wedding has already occurred or something like that that I find a little interesting or

00:34:12

Speaker 1: different from from what I would

00:34:14

Speaker 2: normally expect.

00:34:15

Speaker 1: But my solution right off the

00:34:17

Speaker 2: bat

00:34:18

Speaker 1: is is there someone in your family that you are kind of close to. Is

00:34:22

Speaker 2: there someone who could kind

00:34:24

Speaker 1: of act like

00:34:25

Speaker 2: that point

00:34:26

Speaker 1: person? I can remember on my other side of the family,

00:34:30

Speaker 2: Two

00:34:30

Speaker 1: cousins who we really didn't grow up

00:34:32

Speaker 2: with very much kind

00:34:34

Speaker 1: of came into our

00:34:35

Speaker 2: lives later

00:34:36

Speaker 1: and and started participating at that, that Martha's vineyard family farm that I talked about

00:34:41

Speaker 1: and

00:34:41

Speaker 2: I even just the other night,

00:34:43

Speaker 1: one of those cousins was

00:34:45

Speaker 2: saying, you know, people don't always know who I am

00:34:48

Speaker 1: or I don't

00:34:49

Speaker 2: always know, I have to go through

00:34:50

Speaker 1: you to get the

00:34:51

Speaker 2: family like

00:34:52

Speaker 1: the family run down or, and I don't want to call it

00:34:54

Speaker 2: gossip because it's

00:34:55

Speaker 1: things like

00:34:56

Speaker 2: marriages and babies which

00:34:58

Speaker 1: aren't really gossip, you know,

00:34:59

Speaker 2: and and we recognize that that dynamic is there because um

00:35:05

Speaker 1: he and his sister

00:35:06

Speaker 1: just weren't a part of the family when we were all

00:35:08

Speaker 2: younger and so it's sometimes it's about like

00:35:11

Speaker 1: finding that person you are close

00:35:13

Speaker 2: with and just recognizing

00:35:15

Speaker 1: that they're kind of be, they're gonna kind of be your

00:35:17

Speaker 2: portal into the family news

00:35:19

Speaker 1: thread

00:35:20

Speaker 2: or finding ways

00:35:21

Speaker 1: and maybe it's

00:35:22

Speaker 2: a group text that the family has or something like that that you can participate that don't require you to have

00:35:28

Speaker 1: to be on social media.

00:35:29

Speaker 2: I'm, I'm with you, I have a

00:35:31

Speaker 1: family that operates on social media a lot and I

00:35:34

Speaker 2: really don't like to

00:35:35

Speaker 1: participate there. It gives me a lot of

00:35:37

Speaker 2: anxiety

00:35:38

Speaker 2: and

00:35:38

Speaker 1: so I feel like I often

00:35:40

Speaker 2: miss out on news of family

00:35:42

Speaker 1: and friends because

00:35:43

Speaker 2: of it and I have a little bit, had to

00:35:45

Speaker 1: learn to live with

00:35:46

Speaker 2: that and and be more proactive about asking

00:35:49

Speaker 1: questions and

00:35:51

Speaker 2: comfortable with

00:35:52

Speaker 1: getting the answers sometimes 2nd, 3rd or fourth hand, you know, even when I might be closer

00:35:59

Speaker 2: with the person.

00:36:00

Speaker 1: Listen, you're pulling on all the threads that I would pull

00:36:02

Speaker 2: on here.

00:36:03

Speaker 1: I

00:36:05

Speaker 2: felt like the,

00:36:06

Speaker 1: the the question came together for me a little bit with that comment

00:36:09

Speaker 2: about, about the mom

00:36:11

Speaker 1: also that maybe

00:36:12

Speaker 2: the

00:36:13

Speaker 1: social glue for this family isn't functioning in the same way that it may have even a year or two ago.

00:36:19

Speaker 1: And and I also want

00:36:20

Speaker 2: to acknowledge that the pandemic can

00:36:22

Speaker 1: have that impact or effect, particularly

00:36:24

Speaker 2: in a family where

00:36:24

Speaker 1: maybe people felt differently about getting together or not,

00:36:28

Speaker 2: that

00:36:29

Speaker 1: it might be the

00:36:31

Speaker 2: natural consequences of certain parts of the

00:36:33

Speaker 1: family still gathering and

00:36:35

Speaker 2: certain members of a

00:36:36

Speaker 1: family that weren't

00:36:37

Speaker 2: available or interested

00:36:39

Speaker 1: or or felt safe or comfortable doing that. That I could see a number of things having

00:36:44

Speaker 2: produced a dynamic

00:36:46

Speaker 1: within the family

00:36:47

Speaker 2: where it's it's the

00:36:48

Speaker 1: social glue isn't holding. I loved that. Um, has come unstuck.

00:36:52

Speaker 2: It's it's a great line.

00:36:54

Speaker 1: This question was full of great writing. I also need to

00:36:56

Speaker 2: honor the sentence I

00:36:57

Speaker 1: wish to cause

00:36:59

Speaker 2: no hurt nor

00:36:59

Speaker 1: harm. And yet I need to honor my own values too. That's as great as

00:37:03

Speaker 2: summation

00:37:04

Speaker 1: of, of our big picture. Thinking about etiquette as anything

00:37:07

Speaker 2: I've heard in a while

00:37:09

Speaker 1: I know that one

00:37:10

Speaker 2: made me want to offer a

00:37:11

Speaker 1: hug. Not, not give a hug, but offer a hug.

00:37:14

Speaker 1: Um

00:37:14

Speaker 2: I thought it was,

00:37:15

Speaker 1: it was really great and I like you. I thought it was a really good summation of of the idea of etiquette that

00:37:21

Speaker 2: you you you really

00:37:22

Speaker 1: trying not to hurt or harm anyone, but you're also trying to protect

00:37:26

Speaker 2: yourself or at

00:37:27

Speaker 1: least honor yourself. And

00:37:29

Speaker 2: while I do think that

00:37:30

Speaker 1: there is a certain

00:37:31

Speaker 2: responsibility

00:37:32

Speaker 1: in accepting

00:37:34

Speaker 2: distance,

00:37:34

Speaker 1: particularly when other people

00:37:36

Speaker 2: are initiating it,

00:37:37

Speaker 1: that you can't force other people to have better relationships with you. You can you can

00:37:42

Speaker 2: do your best and be

00:37:43

Speaker 1: your best and meet people in the places that still

00:37:46

Speaker 2: honor your own values

00:37:48

Speaker 1: and beyond

00:37:49

Speaker 2: that.

00:37:49

Speaker 2: There

00:37:50

Speaker 1: is often a standard of of

00:37:52

Speaker 2: managing your own responses

00:37:54

Speaker 1: and emotions that is your responsibility

00:37:56

Speaker 2: at that point. And

00:37:58

Speaker 1: like

00:37:59

Speaker 2: you though, I was looking for the proactive things, the things that you could do that would maybe start to

00:38:04

Speaker 2: reintegrate

00:38:05

Speaker 1: you into that that

00:38:06

Speaker 2: family social dynamic or find your points of access. And

00:38:09

Speaker 1: I love that idea of

00:38:10

Speaker 2: finding a relationship or a

00:38:12

Speaker 1: person that can keep you

00:38:13

Speaker 2: informed. And that might even be

00:38:14

Speaker 1: just someone that reads the social

00:38:15

Speaker 2: media. If it's not something that you want to turn

00:38:17

Speaker 1: on yourself.

00:38:19

Speaker 2: And

00:38:19

Speaker 1: it

00:38:20

Speaker 2: could be someone who's a real

00:38:21

Speaker 1: dynamic center of the

00:38:23

Speaker 2: scene family

00:38:24

Speaker 1: member, it might also just be

00:38:25

Speaker 2: someone that

00:38:26

Speaker 2: has a facebook account and they're linked to everybody. So they get the announcement.

00:38:30

Speaker 1: Exactly exactly.

00:38:31

Speaker 2: Just saying announcements

00:38:34

Speaker 1: makes me want to make

00:38:35

Speaker 2: the etiquette point

00:38:36

Speaker 1: of, of

00:38:37

Speaker 2: commenting on the importance of announcements that happened outside of the social media space for just this kind

00:38:42

Speaker 1: of reason that

00:38:44

Speaker 2: we had a discussion a couple shows ago about

00:38:47

Speaker 1: birth announcements

00:38:48

Speaker 2: and who

00:38:49

Speaker 1: they get sent to

00:38:50

Speaker 2: and how far and wide and what's the purpose or intent. And

00:38:53

Speaker 1: I can't think of a

00:38:54

Speaker 2: better example of why a birth announcement would be something that would be really worthwhile

00:38:59

Speaker 1: and that it's not just

00:39:00

Speaker 2: something that's self

00:39:01

Speaker 1: serving or self

00:39:02

Speaker 2: aggrandizing,

00:39:03

Speaker 1: that it really is about

00:39:04

Speaker 2: sharing

00:39:05

Speaker 2: good news are

00:39:06

Speaker 1: important news

00:39:07

Speaker 2: with

00:39:08

Speaker 1: people who might want to know and

00:39:11

Speaker 1: not everybody who receives that announcement is gonna need

00:39:14

Speaker 2: it or need to know that or

00:39:15

Speaker 1: feel the same way about it, but you might very

00:39:17

Speaker 2: well include somebody in

00:39:19

Speaker 1: a way that's really important

00:39:20

Speaker 2: if you make that effort

00:39:21

Speaker 1: and do it and don't just rely on social media to do it because

00:39:25

Speaker 2: I also feel like

00:39:26

Speaker 1: one of the things that I'm picking

00:39:28

Speaker 2: up as I read this is not a ton of

00:39:31

Speaker 2: taking this too personally, identifying

00:39:34

Speaker 1: yourself as an outlier

00:39:35

Speaker 2: is always a reasonable thing and like I said, good, but like a reasonable thing to do and to

00:39:40

Speaker 1: recognize sort of the

00:39:41

Speaker 2: reality of

00:39:42

Speaker 1: of where you are with

00:39:43

Speaker 2: the family,

00:39:44

Speaker 2: we have some

00:39:45

Speaker 1: outliers in our family and I

00:39:46

Speaker 2: know that people make

00:39:47

Speaker 1: good efforts to, to reach out to them to tell them

00:39:50

Speaker 2: news and to kind of

00:39:51

Speaker 1: spread that family,

00:39:52

Speaker 2: great grapevine. I don't want to call it a gossip

00:39:54

Speaker 1: fine um,

00:39:55

Speaker 2: a little bit, but I also think that because it's not something

00:40:00

Speaker 1: that you feel

00:40:01

Speaker 2: deeply hurt by that you just want to navigate really well, that it makes me feel really confident giving the advice to newbie to actually

00:40:10

Speaker 1: when you do find out

00:40:12

Speaker 2: news,

00:40:12

Speaker 2: send a card,

00:40:13

Speaker 1: send a

00:40:14

Speaker 2: congratulations. Um

00:40:16

Speaker 1: you know, maybe

00:40:16

Speaker 2: if it's, yeah, maybe if it's the divorce you're

00:40:19

Speaker 1: hearing about, I wouldn't send

00:40:20

Speaker 2: a carter congratulations,

00:40:21

Speaker 1: but just take knowledge of it. But I do think that when you

00:40:25

Speaker 2: do find

00:40:26

Speaker 1: out that so and so got married, even if you don't know when it was or where it happened or who it was to,

00:40:32

Speaker 1: I think sending that card could be a really good

00:40:35

Speaker 1: way to show that you're interested and invested. I know that when we have done things like had major book launches or a really cool tv appearance or something and we have posted that to our Emily post social media

00:40:48

Speaker 2: and I've gotten

00:40:49

Speaker 1: some outreach from cousins or family members, congratulating us on it.

00:40:54

Speaker 1: It felt so good.

00:40:56

Speaker 2: Even if this was someone

00:40:57

Speaker 1: I don't talk to very much or even if it is someone that I'm on very sort of different, either political

00:41:02

Speaker 2: or lifestyle ideals

00:41:03

Speaker 1: from like it was

00:41:05

Speaker 2: really great to

00:41:07

Speaker 1: have that kind of support and encouragement and my my guess is that since there has been no argument, you make clear that that

00:41:14

Speaker 2: would be

00:41:15

Speaker 1: welcome and it might even

00:41:18

Speaker 1: get people to pop you on that, you know that that outgoing list for if they do send announcements or if they do have a list of people that aren't on social media, but I think it is

00:41:28

Speaker 2: okay for you to reach

00:41:29

Speaker 1: out even if you haven't heard directly from people, I think that within a family that's really okay

00:41:35

Speaker 2: socially,

00:41:35

Speaker 1: maybe, maybe not quite as much,

00:41:37

Speaker 2: but within a family.

00:41:38

Speaker 1: I think it could really be okay.

00:41:41

Speaker 2: I

00:41:41

Speaker 1: love the idea of leaning in and

00:41:44

Speaker 2: using traditional

00:41:45

Speaker 1: etiquette to help build

00:41:47

Speaker 2: those bonds up

00:41:48

Speaker 1: and to maintain them within a family and

00:41:51

Speaker 1: the holiday, birthday graduation call carter visit can really serve that function and those are important

00:41:58

Speaker 2: moments in people's lives. I think

00:42:00

Speaker 1: that's what we're feeling a little bit in this

00:42:02

Speaker 2: this question is that I

00:42:03

Speaker 1: feel like I'm maybe not as connected

00:42:05

Speaker 2: to those things and it

00:42:06

Speaker 1: results in interpersonal

00:42:07

Speaker 2: social awkwardness,

00:42:09

Speaker 1: that I love your suggestion

00:42:12

Speaker 2: of using

00:42:13

Speaker 1: the very traditional etiquette tools around those

00:42:15

Speaker 2: major life events to stay

00:42:17

Speaker 1: connected with people

00:42:18

Speaker 2: and to just touch them

00:42:19

Speaker 1: and that it can both serve the

00:42:21

Speaker 2: relationship and it can

00:42:22

Speaker 1: make people feel really good and and those are both really good outcomes to doing anything and you

00:42:28

Speaker 2: know, you mentioned that you're an outlier potentially

00:42:31

Speaker 1: for political reasons,

00:42:32

Speaker 2: it can remind people

00:42:33

Speaker 1: that there are many other things to connect about other than our

00:42:37

Speaker 2: our beliefs in

00:42:38

Speaker 1: particular, things

00:42:39

Speaker 2: that, um, just

00:42:40

Speaker 1: because we're, you know, on

00:42:41

Speaker 2: opposite sides of the

00:42:43

Speaker 1: political spectrum

00:42:44

Speaker 2: doesn't mean that I can't

00:42:45

Speaker 1: really be happy for you

00:42:46

Speaker 2: having gotten married or gotten

00:42:48

Speaker 1: out of a bad marriage

00:42:49

Speaker 2: Or had a baby or had your 4th baby.

00:42:52

Speaker 1: And I think that that's a really,

00:42:54

Speaker 2: really great way for us to be connecting right now when people do

00:42:57

Speaker 1: feel so divided

00:42:58

Speaker 2: and like it's been hard to come together

00:43:01

Speaker 2: before

00:43:01

Speaker 1: we leave this question. I know this answer has gotten

00:43:03

Speaker 2: long. I wanna just take a

00:43:05

Speaker 1: Brief 2nd to look at those interpersonal moments

00:43:07

Speaker 2: of awkwardness

00:43:09

Speaker 1: and to

00:43:09

Speaker 2: affirm for our awesome etiquette newbie that once something is public,

00:43:14

Speaker 1: there's no need to pretend

00:43:15

Speaker 2: that you don't

00:43:16

Speaker 1: know

00:43:16

Speaker 1: that

00:43:17

Speaker 2: once someone has gotten married or a baby has been born. Those are things that happened in the public space. And once the announcements are in

00:43:24

Speaker 1: the papers

00:43:25

Speaker 2: or the

00:43:26

Speaker 1: on the social

00:43:27

Speaker 2: media, just because

00:43:28

Speaker 1: you haven't been told personally doesn't mean you

00:43:30

Speaker 2: have to pretend that you don't

00:43:31

Speaker 1: know

00:43:32

Speaker 1: if

00:43:33

Speaker 2: you do end up in a situation

00:43:35

Speaker 1: where you've made a mistake

00:43:36

Speaker 2: where you're asking about a spouse that's no longer a spouse or you haven't heard about a major life

00:43:42

Speaker 1: event.

00:43:43

Speaker 2: Just having at

00:43:44

Speaker 1: your disposal an

00:43:45

Speaker 2: easy sorry, I hadn't heard or my apologies, I didn't know or I'm still getting caught up on the news

00:43:51

Speaker 1: is the

00:43:51

Speaker 2: only thing that's required of you from an

00:43:53

Speaker 1: etiquette perspective that

00:43:55

Speaker 2: you don't need to participate in

00:43:57

Speaker 1: a

00:43:57

Speaker 2: deception or you

00:43:59

Speaker 1: don't need to pretend

00:44:00

Speaker 2: that you don't know things that are public information

00:44:03

Speaker 2: to ease someone else's experience

00:44:06

Speaker 1: that, that

00:44:07

Speaker 2: it's considerate to think

00:44:08

Speaker 1: like that. But as

00:44:09

Speaker 2: long as you're prepared to

00:44:10

Speaker 1: apologize for any hurt or

00:44:11

Speaker 2: offense that you cause it's okay

00:44:13

Speaker 1: to talk about those

00:44:14

Speaker 2: things.

00:44:15

Speaker 1: Absolutely awesome

00:44:17

Speaker 2: etiquette. Newbie, Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for participating. Right off the bat. We are

00:44:22

Speaker 1: very glad to have you part of our

00:44:23

Speaker 2: audience and we certainly hope that our answer helps

00:44:27

Speaker 1: in any family.

00:44:28

Speaker 2: We are bound to encounter a certain amount of rivalry among

00:44:32

Speaker 1: the brothers and sisters

00:44:33

Speaker 2: rival.

00:44:34

Speaker 1: Report attention

00:44:35

Speaker 1: for a steam

00:44:37

Speaker 1: and it's not too strong to say for love

00:44:40

Speaker 1: development is always accompanied by some friction

00:44:44

Speaker 1: and in the very nature of their growing up, the Children must develop. Therefore if there is no friction,

00:44:51

Speaker 1: somebody is hiding something.

00:44:56

Speaker 2: Thank you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at the Emily Post dot com. You can leave a voicemail or text message at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463 or reach us on social media on twitter. We're at Emily Post institute on instagram. We are at Emily Post institute

00:45:17

Speaker 2: and on facebook were awesome etiquette just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media posts so that we know you want your question on the show.

00:45:30

Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:45:34

Speaker 1: If you love

00:45:35

Speaker 2: awesome etiquette, please consider

00:45:37

Speaker 1: becoming a

00:45:37

Speaker 2: sustaining member. You can find out more about this by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette. You'll get

00:45:44

Speaker 1: an ad free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content plus you'll feel great knowing that you helped to keep awesome

00:45:50

Speaker 2: etiquette on the air

00:45:52

Speaker 2: and to those of

00:45:52

Speaker 1: you who are already

00:45:53

Speaker 2: sustaining members. Thank you so much for your support.

00:45:57

Speaker 1: It's time for our feedback

00:45:58

Speaker 2: segment where we hear from

00:46:00

Speaker 1: you about the questions we answer in the topics we cover and

00:46:03

Speaker 2: today we have feedback from

00:46:04

Speaker 1: Grace about the proof reader.

00:46:06

Speaker 2: In our last

00:46:07

Speaker 1: episode.

00:46:08

Speaker 1: Hi lizzie and dan. I just listened to episode four oh one where a listener

00:46:12

Speaker 2: asked how to deal with a

00:46:13

Speaker 1: friend who isn't taking her proof reading corrections.

00:46:17

Speaker 1: As a longtime professional proof reader. I thought your advice was excellent.

00:46:21

Speaker 1: Beverly needs to directly address with her friend why this one correction keeps getting

00:46:25

Speaker 2: ignored.

00:46:26

Speaker 2: I would add that She

00:46:27

Speaker 1: should also discuss why this mistake is incorrect in the first

00:46:30

Speaker 2: place, especially

00:46:32

Speaker 1: if the mistake alters the meaning of the

00:46:33

Speaker 2: sentence

00:46:34

Speaker 2: when

00:46:35

Speaker 1: I prove a document.

00:46:36

Speaker 2: I don't just make

00:46:37

Speaker 1: corrections. I asked questions so we can

00:46:39

Speaker 2: discuss why the writer made a

00:46:40

Speaker 1: particular choice that looks off

00:46:42

Speaker 2: to me.

00:46:43

Speaker 2: If

00:46:43

Speaker 1: I was working with a writer who continuously ignored the same

00:46:46

Speaker 2: correction, I would tell them

00:46:48

Speaker 1: why I'm suggesting that

00:46:49

Speaker 2: particular change. No

00:46:51

Speaker 1: links. Just a quick this is done this

00:46:53

Speaker 2: way because

00:46:55

Speaker 2: if

00:46:55

Speaker 1: they insist they prefer it

00:46:56

Speaker 2: anyway,

00:46:57

Speaker 1: then that's their

00:46:58

Speaker 2: choice. But if it's something

00:46:59

Speaker 1: that changes the actual meaning of the sentence, it really needs to be

00:47:03

Speaker 2: addressed.

00:47:04

Speaker 1: The # one thing I've learned over the years

00:47:06

Speaker 2: is that language is

00:47:07

Speaker 1: mutable. Not everything

00:47:09

Speaker 2: has to be technically

00:47:10

Speaker 1: correct all the time.

00:47:11

Speaker 2: If it doesn't fit the voice

00:47:12

Speaker 1: or tone of the piece

00:47:13

Speaker 2: of writing,

00:47:14

Speaker 2: you

00:47:15

Speaker 1: just want to stay consistent.

00:47:17

Speaker 1: Best proof reader who reread this email

00:47:20

Speaker 2: 10 times before

00:47:21

Speaker 1: sending. I

00:47:24

Speaker 2: also love that there are dashes between all those words which

00:47:27

Speaker 1: would be correct.

00:47:29

Speaker 2: Oh, proof reader who read

00:47:31

Speaker 1: this email 10

00:47:32

Speaker 2: times before sending. Thank you so

00:47:34

Speaker 1: much for your feedback.

00:47:35

Speaker 2: This is

00:47:36

Speaker 2: this is this feedback makes me so happy because it's so exactly the type of

00:47:39

Speaker 1: feedback I like

00:47:40

Speaker 2: and not because it says you guys did a great job with the answer, but because it's a, it's a professional

00:47:45

Speaker 1: in this world who would have dealt

00:47:47

Speaker 2: with these types, who does

00:47:48

Speaker 1: deal with these type

00:47:49

Speaker 2: of questions all

00:47:50

Speaker 1: the time. These type of etiquette

00:47:52

Speaker 2: navigations in their workspace.

00:47:54

Speaker 2: And I

00:47:54

Speaker 1: just I love

00:47:56

Speaker 2: getting that kind of an in depth

00:47:58

Speaker 1: perspective from someone.

00:47:59

Speaker 2: So thank you so very much

00:48:01

Speaker 2: Proof reader who read this email 10 times before sending. We really appreciate your feedback

00:48:08

Speaker 2: and thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please do keep them coming. You can send your next question feedback or update two awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can also leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463.

00:48:35

Speaker 2: It's time for our post script segment where

00:48:38

Speaker 1: we dive deeper into a topic of

00:48:39

Speaker 2: etiquette and today we're going to talk about the history of etiquette. Books.

00:48:44

Speaker 2: Lizzie

00:48:44

Speaker 1: recently unpacked an

00:48:45

Speaker 2: old box of books from our E P. I storage

00:48:48

Speaker 1: and in it found a book titled Extraordinary

00:48:51

Speaker 2: Origins of everyday things by Charles Panati. And we should state up front

00:48:55

Speaker 1: That this book was printed in 1987.

00:48:58

Speaker 2: So it's a little dated at this point,

00:49:00

Speaker 1: but it did have some

00:49:01

Speaker 2: interesting points about

00:49:02

Speaker 1: etiquette, including

00:49:03

Speaker 2: where western etiquette books come from. So that's the section we will be sharing with you today.

00:49:08

Speaker 1: It begins on page

00:49:09

Speaker 2: 83

00:49:11

Speaker 1: and

00:49:12

Speaker 2: I am excited eventually

00:49:13

Speaker 1: to share the Emily

00:49:14

Speaker 2: Post section that we found in here.

00:49:16

Speaker 1: But I did think this one was kind of cool

00:49:19

Speaker 2: Western etiquette books, 13th century Europe

00:49:23

Speaker 2: during the dark days of the Middle

00:49:25

Speaker 1: Ages when barbarian

00:49:26

Speaker 2: tribes from the north raided and sacked the civilized nations of southern europe manners were people's least concern,

00:49:34

Speaker 2: Formal codes of civility fell into disuse for hundreds of years. It was the popularity of the 11th

00:49:42

Speaker 1: century

00:49:42

Speaker 2: crusades and the accompanying prestige of knighthood with its own code of chivalry that reawakened an interest

00:49:51

Speaker 1: in manners and etiquette.

00:49:53

Speaker 2: One new court

00:49:54

Speaker 1: custom

00:49:55

Speaker 2: called coupling paired a nobleman with a lady at a banquet.

00:50:00

Speaker 2: Each couple sharing one goblet and one plate.

00:50:04

Speaker 2: Entomologists locate the practice as the source of a later

00:50:08

Speaker 1: expression for

00:50:09

Speaker 2: cohorts aligned

00:50:10

Speaker 1: in any

00:50:11

Speaker 2: endeavor. Said

00:50:12

Speaker 1: to quote unquote,

00:50:14

Speaker 2: eat from the same

00:50:15

Speaker 1: plate.

00:50:16

Speaker 2: The rebirth of strict codes

00:50:18

Speaker 1: of behavior

00:50:18

Speaker 2: Is historically documented by the appearance starting in 13th Century Europe of etiquette

00:50:24

Speaker 1: books.

00:50:25

Speaker 2: The upper class was

00:50:26

Speaker 1: expanding

00:50:27

Speaker 2: more and more people had access to court and they wanted to know how to behave.

00:50:33

Speaker 2: The situation is not all that different from the 20th century social phenomenon of upward mobility, also accompanied by etiquette books here is a sample of the advice

00:50:45

Speaker 1: such books offered.

00:50:46

Speaker 2: The upwardly mobile through the centuries.

00:50:49

Speaker 2: Keep in mind that what the

00:50:51

Speaker 1: etiquette writers caution people

00:50:52

Speaker 2: against

00:50:54

Speaker 1: usually

00:50:54

Speaker 2: represents the behavioral norm of the day

00:50:58

Speaker 2: 13th century and they've

00:51:00

Speaker 1: got four points.

00:51:01

Speaker 1: A

00:51:01

Speaker 2: number of people gnaw a bone and then put it back in the dish.

00:51:06

Speaker 1: This is a serious

00:51:07

Speaker 2: offense.

00:51:09

Speaker 2: Next

00:51:10

Speaker 2: refrain from falling upon the dish like a swine while eating snorting

00:51:14

Speaker 1: disgustingly

00:51:15

Speaker 2: and smacking the lips.

00:51:18

Speaker 1: Do not spit

00:51:19

Speaker 2: over or on the table in the manner of hunters.

00:51:24

Speaker 2: When you blow your nose or cough,

00:51:26

Speaker 1: turn around so that

00:51:27

Speaker 2: nothing falls on the table, there is a lot of actual etiquette that stayed

00:51:32

Speaker 1: from the 13th

00:51:33

Speaker 2: century. The more

00:51:34

Speaker 1: things change, the

00:51:35

Speaker 2: more they stay the same. We weren't joking when we said table manners don't change much.

00:51:41

Speaker 2: Alright, 14th century.

00:51:43

Speaker 2: A man who clears his throat when he eats and one who blows his nose in the

00:51:48

Speaker 1: tablecloth are

00:51:49

Speaker 2: both ill bred. I assure you

00:51:53

Speaker 2: you should not poke your teeth with your knife. As some

00:51:56

Speaker 1: do. It is

00:51:57

Speaker 2: a bad habit.

00:51:59

Speaker 2: I hear that some eat unwashed

00:52:02

Speaker 2: for

00:52:02

Speaker 1: this next one.

00:52:03

Speaker 2: We want to just

00:52:04

Speaker 1: Remind people this was written in the 14th century, not 1980

00:52:08

Speaker 2: seven, because it's quoted.

00:52:10

Speaker 1: I hear that

00:52:11

Speaker 2: some eat unwashed

00:52:12

Speaker 1: may their fingers be

00:52:14

Speaker 2: palsied

00:52:16

Speaker 1: 15th century.

00:52:17

Speaker 2: Do not put

00:52:18

Speaker 1: back on your plate. What has been in your mouth.

00:52:22

Speaker 2: Do not

00:52:22

Speaker 1: chew anything you

00:52:24

Speaker 2: have to spit

00:52:24

Speaker 1: out again.

00:52:26

Speaker 1: It is bad manners to dip food into the salt.

00:52:31

Speaker 2: During these

00:52:31

Speaker 1: centuries there was much

00:52:33

Speaker 2: advice on the proper way

00:52:35

Speaker 1: of blowing one's nose. There were of

00:52:37

Speaker 2: course, no tissues

00:52:38

Speaker 1: and handkerchiefs had still not come into common

00:52:41

Speaker 2: use

00:52:42

Speaker 1: frowned upon. Was the

00:52:43

Speaker 2: practice of blowing into

00:52:44

Speaker 1: a tablecloth or coat sleeve

00:52:46

Speaker 2: accepted was

00:52:47

Speaker 1: the practice of

00:52:48

Speaker 2: blowing into

00:52:49

Speaker 1: the fingers. I am not sure that is any

00:52:52

Speaker 2: better

00:52:53

Speaker 1: painters and

00:52:54

Speaker 2: sculptors of the age

00:52:55

Speaker 1: frankly

00:52:56

Speaker 2: reproduced

00:52:57

Speaker 1: these gestures.

00:52:59

Speaker 1: Among

00:52:59

Speaker 2: the night's

00:53:00

Speaker 1: depicted on the tombstone of french

00:53:02

Speaker 2: king Philip the

00:53:03

Speaker 1: bold at Dijon France, one is blowing his nose into his coat,

00:53:08

Speaker 2: another into his

00:53:10

Speaker 1: fingers.

00:53:12

Speaker 1: I

00:53:12

Speaker 2: still think it's

00:53:13

Speaker 1: fascinating that so many things are very much the same, but it is interesting that apparently blowing

00:53:18

Speaker 2: the nose was

00:53:19

Speaker 1: like the big, how the heck do we deal with this like the cell phone manner of the day, you know, Although I've got two little girls right now who are, they're learning very diligently coughing into their the crook of their elbow and sneezing into the crook of their elbow and

00:53:34

Speaker 1: I don't know if that would have been considered strange or gross or awkward 10 even 10 years ago or 15

00:53:40

Speaker 2: years ago. Yeah.

00:53:41

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:53:43

Speaker 1: Good case for ye Kleenex.

00:53:46

Speaker 2: You

00:53:47

Speaker 1: know, you know, we

00:53:50

Speaker 2: we talk a

00:53:51

Speaker 1: lot on this show and we reference things all the way back to Emily Post because that's that's, you know, our our category, it's our company, it's our family, it's our history, it's where

00:54:02

Speaker 1: Our knowledge of etiquette kind of starts and I do really love getting to hear about etiquette from before the 1920s. It's been fun exploring gilded age etiquette at times. Um but

00:54:13

Speaker 2: it's also really

00:54:14

Speaker 1: interesting to

00:54:16

Speaker 2: hear someone also talk

00:54:18

Speaker 1: about knights and chivalry and that being a time when etiquette kind of had a renaissance

00:54:23

Speaker 2: and came back

00:54:24

Speaker 1: from a time where it wasn't as focused on

00:54:27

Speaker 1: and really interesting to think

00:54:29

Speaker 2: about

00:54:30

Speaker 1: what implements people were using

00:54:32

Speaker 2: back then and how

00:54:34

Speaker 1: they might have helped us to be polite or not be polite like to me, I would like,

00:54:39

Speaker 2: oh I could just imagine

00:54:40

Speaker 1: your coat being more polite than your hands, but

00:54:44

Speaker 2: clearly I would have been

00:54:45

Speaker 1: On the outs, back in the 14th and 15th

00:54:47

Speaker 2: centuries

00:54:48

Speaker 1: in europe,

00:54:49

Speaker 1: that

00:54:50

Speaker 2: those hands are

00:54:50

Speaker 1: really what you should be sneezing into.

00:54:53

Speaker 2: It makes me want to go

00:54:54

Speaker 1: wash my hands easier to wash your hands than your code.

00:54:57

Speaker 2: It is

00:54:58

Speaker 1: easier to wash your hands in your

00:54:59

Speaker 2: coat. That is that

00:55:00

Speaker 1: is really true. That is really true. It makes me want to go wash my hands right now. Thinking about,

00:55:06

Speaker 2: well, I'll tell you what you've

00:55:07

Speaker 1: done with the post. You've got me thinking

00:55:09

Speaker 2: about a book

00:55:10

Speaker 1: that I read way back in High school. Castiglione is the quarter

00:55:13

Speaker 2: and it

00:55:15

Speaker 1: predated the Prince Machiavelli's the Prince. And I've heard people talk

00:55:19

Speaker 2: about it as

00:55:21

Speaker 1: one of the earliest etiquette books in

00:55:24

Speaker 2: sort of renaissance

00:55:25

Speaker 1: era europe. And you've got me thinking I need to go dig around and find

00:55:29

Speaker 2: us a reading from the court here as well. Oh, that would be great. That would be really, really great. Once

00:55:34

Speaker 1: upon a time, that book

00:55:35

Speaker 2: sat on my

00:55:37

Speaker 1: bookshelf

00:55:38

Speaker 2: at our Emily Post

00:55:40

Speaker 2: Institute Burlington

00:55:41

Speaker 1: offices and this will force me to go

00:55:43

Speaker 2: to the boxes of books, what I now

00:55:45

Speaker 1: call the Revolution

00:55:46

Speaker 2: Library and to

00:55:48

Speaker 1: find the court here. I'm sure I will also

00:55:50

Speaker 2: find some other gems

00:55:51

Speaker 1: to bring to the post script

00:55:53

Speaker 2: series. Well, I definitely

00:55:54

Speaker 1: look forward to that

00:55:55

Speaker 2: because well, thank you for taking us back into the archives to be continued.

00:56:14

Speaker 2: Mhm

00:56:19

Speaker 2: We like to end our show on a high note. So

00:56:21

Speaker 1: we turn to you to hear about the good

00:56:22

Speaker 2: etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in

00:56:24

Speaker 1: the world and that can come

00:56:25

Speaker 2: in so many forms. And today we have a salute from Jessica.

00:56:29

Speaker 1: My parents live in ST George Utah

00:56:31

Speaker 2: and I'm in the Seattle area

00:56:33

Speaker 1: and they own a shop in las

00:56:34

Speaker 2: Vegas. So they're frequently traveling to

00:56:36

Speaker 1: Vegas to attend

00:56:38

Speaker 2: the shop

00:56:39

Speaker 2: for

00:56:39

Speaker 1: Mother's Day this year. I decided it would be a

00:56:41

Speaker 2: great idea to send my mom a gift box

00:56:43

Speaker 1: of local Seattle

00:56:44

Speaker 2: chocolates, which she loves.

00:56:47

Speaker 2: What I didn't think about was that in ST. George in may can be up to 90° during the day and chocolate will melt.

00:56:54

Speaker 1: I sent the package

00:56:55

Speaker 2: to their home address and you guessed it, they weren't home and weren't going to be home all week.

00:57:01

Speaker 2: Fortunately

00:57:02

Speaker 1: one of my

00:57:03

Speaker 2: parents and neighbors in ST George noticed the package the day it was

00:57:06

Speaker 1: delivered,

00:57:07

Speaker 2: knew they were out of town and texted my parents to let them know that it had

00:57:10

Speaker 1: arrived and

00:57:11

Speaker 2: asking if they would like the neighbor to take care of it for them.

00:57:14

Speaker 1: The neighbor took the package

00:57:16

Speaker 2: and then drove to

00:57:17

Speaker 1: las Vegas to

00:57:18

Speaker 2: deliver it to my mom in time for Mother's Day.

00:57:22

Speaker 1: So this salute goes to my

00:57:24

Speaker 2: parents neighbor

00:57:25

Speaker 1: in Saint George who saved

00:57:27

Speaker 2: my mother's Day gift from becoming a pile of melted chocolate

00:57:31

Speaker 1: mess

00:57:33

Speaker 2: and got it to my mom

00:57:34

Speaker 1: just in time.

00:57:35

Speaker 2: Thank you for all that. You do keep up the great

00:57:38

Speaker 1: work kind regards

00:57:39

Speaker 2: Jessica

00:57:40

Speaker 2: Jessica, thank you so much

00:57:41

Speaker 1: for that salute with a

00:57:42

Speaker 2: twist. I love those. That is like, you know you, I figured we were gonna, you know, have the neighbor put it in the fridge and hold it like that. This is the basic, this was amazing. Like big salute to your parents neighbors,

00:57:58

Speaker 1: hmm

00:57:58

Speaker 2: big salute

00:57:59

Speaker 1: to your parents neighbors

00:58:00

Speaker 2: and you know, trip to Vegas.

00:58:02

Speaker 1: Good

00:58:03

Speaker 2: excuse, good excuse, good excuse. Thank you so much for the salute

00:58:12

Speaker 2: and thank you for listening. Thank you to everyone who has sent us something and everybody who supports us over on Patreon.

00:58:18

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00:58:50

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00:59:18

Speaker 2: Mhm.