Episode 403 - Who Started It

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Speaker 1: maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social courtesy, that's old fashioned

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Speaker 1: host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person, real friendliness and

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Speaker 2: welcome to awesome etiquette

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Speaker 1: where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. On

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Speaker 2: today's show we take your questions on politely ending phone calls,

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Speaker 2: leaving a job without knowing what's next family members who comment on what you wear and telling family members you're not ready

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Speaker 1: for marriage. For awesome etiquette sustaining members. Our question of the week is about writing. Thank you notes for gifts you know, have been purchased but have yet to receive

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Speaker 2: plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a postscript on Emily Post from the

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Speaker 1: book, extraordinary

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Speaker 2: origins of everyday things by Charles Panati

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Speaker 1: All that's coming up

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Speaker 1: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute. I'm dan post Senning

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Speaker 2: and I'm lizzie post and it is the

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Speaker 1: most beautiful day ever.

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Speaker 2: It is, this is why we live here. It's days like this, it's like just warm enough if you're too hot, there's a slight cool breeze and it is like zero cloud in the sky sunshine. I mean it's just dreamy,

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Speaker 1: they're getting longer.

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Speaker 2: It's really, it is really, really nice. So

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Speaker 1: what's going on with you on this beautiful day.

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Speaker 2: I like worked myself up into a little etiquette corner and like

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Speaker 1: I didn't know what to

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Speaker 2: do. I got so nervous about having to coordinate with one of my cousins for this upcoming trip

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Speaker 2: and there were all these little factors that I was balancing out. So the issue is a really classic etiquette issue um, when it comes to going on a trip or staying with other people and that's,

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Speaker 2: you know, do you bring your dog or your pet? You know, and

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Speaker 1: when we

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Speaker 2: were on one of our meetings with myself, my cousin and her brother who is also my cousin

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Speaker 2: who's the little team of us are going to be staying in what's referred to as the pond house when we go down to do our prep for the Martha's vineyard property on my other side of the family and get it ready for the renting season.

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Speaker 2: Um we're gonna be staying in the pond house together and during our call about what Parker and I were going to be doing, that's the brother cousin, which sounds a little strange, but um while we're down there and, and Shelly's the one that manages all of us.

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Speaker 2: Shellie had mentioned that her cat was going to be coming and we were in what I think of as a business call. So I didn't want to all of a sudden make it all about like me bringing sunny down and and how to, you know, work that between the two of us and I didn't want to ask her

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Speaker 2: with a third party on the call, just, you know, it's like I wanted to give her like the space and the privacy to have that conversation and that's probably me way overthinking it. I was also nervous

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Speaker 2: to just bring it up because I don't have dog care for sunny right now. My, my best dog sitter moved to boston and I just, it's not an easy thing for me to find. He also has an injured paul right now, so I just fully planned on bringing him down.

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Speaker 2: It also happens to be farm policy that you can bring your pet down. Like that's just what all the family does. And

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Speaker 2: I was in this awkward space of like, well shells my cousin and we're all family and so like the normal rules apply to all of us, but at the same time she's also my manager in this position and so I didn't know if like there was like a, well because the managers cats coming, the trainees dog can't come, you know what I mean? I was really afraid of that kind of a dynamic

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Speaker 2: and how it would feel because that's so different from the way the farm normally operates and, and Shell hadn't put any of this on me. So it's not like I knew where she was coming from, I was just scared of where she might be coming from and I was letting that thought take over the rest of the thoughts and so after the call, I even did the thing that I do when I'm really nervous as I ask other people and so I

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Speaker 2: Parker and I hung on the call to like go over a few details and I was like, hey,

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Speaker 2: do you think Shelly would have a problem with Sonny coming? Like I kind of just planned on bringing him because I just bring him with me to the farm, like he's welcome and so I don't worry about it, but she's bringing whisper and

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Speaker 1: he

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Speaker 2: was like, she'll be fine with it, just talk with her about it. I was like, okay, okay, okay. And because I was so nervous, I asked her everything else about the trip that I possibly could. And then in our call, she goes well and I've got to go because I've got this house guest coming to stay and take care of whisper. And I was like, oh, so you're not bringing the cat? And she's like, no, I was like,

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Speaker 2: okay, well that makes this a little easier. I was like, I was planning on bringing Sonny and I just didn't know. And she was like, oh man, well if if whisper was coming, we just want to make sure that they don't get close because whisper will take his eye out. You know what I mean? It was like totally fine.

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Speaker 2: I also let her know that if in the end, whisper did end up coming, I would just keep sonny on a leash in the house so that it's not an issue, you know? And he can be like under control that way,

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Speaker 2: but like I it was so interesting trying to balance the sample script of not feeling like I needed to ask for permission, but also not wanting to just dictate and tell someone what I was doing. It was like this weird space of

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Speaker 2: wanting to be really respectful and reassure her that I was going to put the cat first but not put myself in a situation of asking whether I was bringing the dog or not. It was so awkward. I was very glad that it all just kind of worked out and she,

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Speaker 2: you know, she, we were face timing and so she got to see Sunny and was like, oh we can't wait to see him and you know, like it was really sweet. It was, it was all good. My fears didn't need to be fears. But

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Speaker 2: man, even when you do this for a living and write books about how to have host guest dances and and try to even figure out who hosts are and stuff like that

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Speaker 1: can

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Speaker 2: still cause you to get really nervous family

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Speaker 1: relationship, business relationship will add that little complication. I'm so glad to hear the details of how this resolved

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Speaker 1: and I'm noticing things like you had a sample script in your pocket. I love the, I would obviously I would put the cat first

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Speaker 1: and

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Speaker 2: I

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Speaker 1: can just hear a good sample script in there somewhere.

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Speaker 2: So

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Speaker 1: full disclosure. I was one of those people that you talked to about when you were still thinking about having that call and we're nervous about bringing it up and I had to, I had to tease you a little bit,

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Speaker 2: It is such

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Speaker 1: a dan etiquette moment to be nervous about something like that and to have an avoidance bug going in your head and I always think of you as someone who just meets things head on and so confident in your own ability to navigate these things that you don't get flustered by it. You don't get those nerves that

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Speaker 2: I

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Speaker 1: attribute to myself and to many other people

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Speaker 1: and it was sort of fun to hear you wrestle a little bit with, with your own insecurity about bringing it up and how you're going to say it

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Speaker 2: because I got so many insecurities should hear all the things that I go through my head before we have conversations, like I have all kinds of insecurities, even with all those wonderful sample scripts that we've done on this show over the years, but I will say this show has helped me lean into a lot of stuff.

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Speaker 2: It's helped me just say, you know, you're just gonna have to talk about it and figure it out. So do that and often that very idea of like, you know,

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Speaker 2: you just gotta deal with it very peter post, very much my father like chiming in in my my development here, but I feel like that attitude, that mentality is often what gets me over that and I love the word you just used for it. The what was it that something, the avoidance bug,

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Speaker 2: like the little avoidance bug buzzing around in your head, like I love that, and

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Speaker 2: it's often that that thought of, you know, you have to get the answer, you need to communicate about this, that squashes that bug for me. Um and then if I stumble awkwardly through it, I stumble awkwardly through it and I have an apology in my back pocket to use, you know, and if it happens the way it did with shell this time, then it's fine. Like, you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 1: And I have developed this little shorthand, we'll be talking about something like that, or there'll be some question, oh, it's this or is it this? And

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Speaker 1: will say,

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Speaker 1: well the podcast answer would be

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Speaker 1: and then that gives us the basic framework for what we know we should do.

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Speaker 2: I like that, I like

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Speaker 1: that. Well, you know, there's something else that we probably should do.

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Speaker 2: Oh, you think we should get to

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Speaker 1: some questions, Get to

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Speaker 2: the rest of the podcast,

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Speaker 1: we have some questions to answer, Let's do it. Let's do it,

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Speaker 2: awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions, you can email them to awesome etiquette at Emily post dot com leave a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463 or you can reach us on social media on twitter. We're at Emily post inst that's I N S T

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Speaker 2: on instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute

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Speaker 2: and on facebook were awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your social media posts

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Speaker 1: so that we know you want your question on the show.

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Speaker 2: Mhm,

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Speaker 1: mm hmm.

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Speaker 1: Our first question this week is about a phone faux pas

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Speaker 1: dear lizzie and dan, thank you for what you do. I enjoy the podcast every morning like a breakfast treat.

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Speaker 1: I am writing to you from Uganda east africa

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Speaker 1: when receiving a phone call, who should hang up first. Is it the caller for the person being called?

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Speaker 1: And when there's an awkward silence, What sample script should I use to politely beg to end the call? Regards jane

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Speaker 2: jane. Thanks so much for the question dan, I know that that you have a pretty like one and done answer to this sometimes and I definitely want to hear it and for me, I think it's a bit more nuanced but like what, what what is the traditional etiquette here.

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Speaker 1: I always as you know like to jump off from the traditional etiquette, you gotta know the rules to know when and how to break them and I will

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Speaker 1: in advance bow or nod to your nuance because I fully appreciate the reality of that.

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Speaker 1: The. the very traditional idea is that the person who initiates the call is responsible for closing it in some ways they take on that hosting role, that initiating role and if they are so fortunate as to reach the person that they're trying to reach, it's also their job at some point too

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Speaker 1: close the call the same way someone who invites you to a meeting closes a meeting now that we know that the basic idea and I think it's a good idea to have it in your mind if you initiate a call that you intend to be a quick call, that you can

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Speaker 1: do the quick call, do the information exchange and then wrap it up and I think people really appreciate that. It's why I like to, to start with that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't always work out that way. Let's complicate things a little bit.

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Speaker 2: I mean it really doesn't always work out that way, especially for longer, more catch up style calls. Sometimes it can feel like you don't even know, I mean I know dan and I, you, you and I have incredibly long conversations throughout the day and

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Speaker 2: there will be times where both of us don't have much to say, but we don't really want to end the phone call because the point of connection is nice

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Speaker 2: and other times maybe one or the other, one of us either has to go to something. Um regardless of who initiated that phone call and it's, you know what, that's huge on the other line, I gotta go or oh, I didn't realize what time it was, I've got to go or

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Speaker 2: hey, you know, I'm really itching to get back to this other thing I was working on.

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Speaker 1: Like can

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Speaker 2: we pick up the rest of this later? And all of those are fine and natural moments, natural things that can happen in the course of a phone call. That might mean that the person who called isn't the person who suggests that the call ends, but I do think what is really important and dan got on me about this, which, so I really remember this point of etiquette is to really make sure that both parties have had a chance to say goodbye before you hang up the phone. So in the midst of your conversation rather than saying, oh, you know what, I just realized I've got to go talk to you later. Bye click.

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Speaker 2: You want to actually say, oh, I just realized I have to go, I'm so sorry. Maybe you say something like could we pick this up later or maybe you don't, maybe instead you said I've so enjoyed being able to talk or I'm so grateful

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Speaker 2: for having been able to talk or thanks for that information. You know, obviously it depends on the nature of the phone call, but then you can wait for them to say something back to you and then when you have both exchanged those goodbyes, you can actually click out

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Speaker 2: harder is when the other person doesn't say anything that instigates a goodbye, right? Is that you kind of do the pre goodbye?

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Speaker 1: And then

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Speaker 2: they don't respond with an actual goodbye. They kind of say, oh but there's just one this other thing I've got to tell you and you're like, no, actually I really do have to run right now. I would love to hear it later. I'll make sure to call you back this evening or something like that. And then you can say it's been great talking to you, but I'll talk to you soon, bye bye. And then hopefully you're gonna hear it by on the other end

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Speaker 2: rather than oh, but it's just gonna take three seconds and then once you get that goodbye confirmation, I think you can hang up the phone but you you really work that into my brain that you you really want to make sure that you fully heard the other goodbye and you give it a second before hanging up so that it doesn't feel like you just cut the other person off.

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Speaker 1: It's not too abrupt

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Speaker 1: there. There's something else that I like that you just did there with your

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Speaker 1: sort of rolling sample scripts and that was

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Speaker 2: that you say something

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Speaker 1: positive. It's a great way to wrap things up. You don't always need to thank somebody. Sometimes it can be,

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Speaker 2: it's been

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Speaker 1: so great talking to you. Oh, I'm so glad we finally connected or I'm so glad we touch base or but just something that is affirmative and positive about the exchange can be a really nice way to set up an exit to introduce an exit and

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Speaker 1: to give someone else that mental room preparation and permission to start to let go of. I like the way you described it, that connection that you've established, phone calls can be, can be really personal experiences. So it's I think it's nice to

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Speaker 1: to ease into that landing just a little bit and I like the way you were doing that naturally.

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Speaker 1: The other thing that comes to my mind when I think about ending a phone call is our Aunt Peggy Post totally led the way for us in so many ways in this business. She was a steward for this tradition a generation before we were involved and

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Speaker 1: we hear things about Peggy and the way she conducted herself personally, she was an incredible thank you note writer,

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Speaker 1: Another little point of etiquette that I give Peggy so much credit for is she is so good at ending phone calls well and she has a bye bye where she says bye bye and it has a finality to it. It actually functions to close the call and at the same time she sounds so

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Speaker 1: cheerful and bright when she says it

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Speaker 1: that I just love it and it leaves room for,

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Speaker 1: bye, bye bye bye bye bye. Sometimes it bounces back and forth just a little bit,

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Speaker 2: but not

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Speaker 1: too many times. It doesn't always feel

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Speaker 1: like it's too much to me,

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Speaker 1: but I've tried to learn that from her because I found myself at the end of phone calls particularly if it's something where you have thanked somebody for something or it feels

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Speaker 1: maybe a little more formal, a little less casual and you're looking for a way to actually close it without saying thank you. And I didn't have a good bye bye. And I've

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Speaker 1: I've tried to learn it from Peggy because it's it's actually really effective. It's a great way to end things and if you say it with the right tone in your voice, it doesn't sound dismissive or abrupt.

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Speaker 2: Not at all. In fact, I because you've pointed her her goodbye out to me numerous times, I've paid more attention to it and I've noticed she also has a shorter but still equally as chinese kind of version of it that's just by so if by by doesn't quite feel right to you. You could also just make make it a nice clean

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Speaker 2: bye and she, it's like it's friendly, it's gotta,

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Speaker 2: it's like got a little bit of a song to it and it it like sounds nice as she's doing it. Um I may not have imitated it very well just there. Um but I I appreciate the fact that she always gives that lift to her voice when she's saying goodbye and I think that's a really great way to ensure your goodbye doesn't fall flat like a by

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Speaker 2: see you

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Speaker 1: later goodbye, you

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Speaker 2: know like that just sounds kind of dreary um and so it's not that you have to be sing song, me and bright sunshine sparkles all the time, but I think cultivating your um your salutations and your closings or your exits or your goodbyes nicely

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Speaker 2: are really great ways to kind of

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Speaker 2: bookend an entire conversation and probably set you up well for the next phone call

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Speaker 1: jane, thank you so much for this question all the way from East Africa, it is such a delight to hear from people all over the world. We certainly hope that our answer helps and that you find it easier to exit phone calls in the future

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Speaker 2: by

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Speaker 1: these words are important when you are using the telephone, they will help you to be kind and considerate of other people.

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Speaker 2: Our next question is titled jumping ship without a job

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Speaker 2: hi lizzie and dan, as someone who has struggled with anxiety and depression for quite some time and always overworked myself. I have finally reached the point of burnout, I have no motivation to do the everyday tasks I used to do.

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Speaker 2: So I decided to put in notice at my job and take some time to reset my brain and get into a better headspace with family out of state.

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Speaker 2: My boss sent a very nice note about my departure, not mentioning why I'm leaving to protect my privacy, but I continue to interact with people who are sad to see me go and are wondering what I have lined up next. While. I realized that is a natural question for them to ask. This was not an easy decision for me to make

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Speaker 2: and it's somewhat difficult for me to talk about because I have always been an

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Speaker 1: overachiever.

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Speaker 2: Is there a sample script you could give me to just vaguely say I'm taking some personal time and I don't know what's next without coming off. Like don't ask me that question.

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Speaker 2: Thanks B b

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Speaker 1: b b, thank you for your question. And I just want to start off by saying, I'm sorry to hear that you've been having a tough time recently and I'm glad to hear that you're taking steps to take care of yourself. I think that is really wise when you find yourself in a situation where you're you're feeling burned out.

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Speaker 1: I also want to share something kind of personal, which is that I was in a very similar place when I landed at the Emily Post Institute and by similar, I mean I concluded the thing that I was doing previously and

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Speaker 1: had very specifically said to myself, I don't know what I'm going to do next and I don't want to know I'm gonna open up some space in my life to see what happens. And I'm going to pay a lot of attention to what

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Speaker 1: the universe presents me and what comes up and where my interests lead me when I'm not doing the

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Speaker 1: daily things, the everyday things, the day to day things that I've been doing for a number of years now. And

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Speaker 1: it was really fun. There were some very different paths that opened up as potential futures in my life and the one that was the family business Emily Post was

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Speaker 1: For me, the most appealing and was the direction I went and here I am 15 years later. And I just wanted to mention that because I think that what you're talking about doing is something that I think a lot of people do at some point in their life where you sit back, take stock, reevaluate

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Speaker 1: and say to yourself, you know, I'm not sure what I'm going to do next, but I know I'm going to make a change. So

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Speaker 1: having said all that, I think that also sets us up for taking some of the pressure out of exactly how you respond to that question you were asking about a sample script

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Speaker 1: for communicating that you're taking some personal time and don't know what's coming next. And I was thinking to myself, that's actually not a bad sample script said with

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Speaker 1: the right tone and the right spirit. I think that's exactly the information that you are wanting to communicate and can communicate without inviting too much, I don't wanna call interrogation without inviting too much interest from

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Speaker 2: someone. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've got a string of them. I could reel off but I want to hear what lizzie post has to say about this.

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Speaker 2: Actually, I'm going to keep my mouth very quiet during this one and say that there is probably one of my absolute favorite phrases on dance sample script. It is a

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Speaker 2: barre Vermont phrase

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Speaker 2: and I think said with a quick little smile, could be exactly the perfect line dan, would you read the second bullet on your list of phrases please for everyone and maybe do it in the wonderful natural Vermont voice that that we all actually have that maybe isn't quite our, our podcasting voices,

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Speaker 1: hard telling, not knowing.

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Speaker 2: I love that phrase so much, it is such a Vermont phrase and

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Speaker 1: it's

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Speaker 2: so quickly and succinctly gets to what is going on, you know, it's, it's really hard to tell when you don't know and I think that is just so wonderfully perfect if it doesn't work for you Phoebe, I totally understand, but for me, when I saw that I was like dan had a stroke of genius this morning with that sample script. What are some of the others that you have on this list because

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure, but I'll let you know when I figure it out.

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Speaker 2: I like that one too.

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Speaker 1: I'm

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Speaker 2: taking some time to figure that

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Speaker 1: out myself or

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Speaker 1: with a little more explanation

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Speaker 2: at the moment. There's

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Speaker 1: no big plan. But that feels pretty good for now.

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Speaker 2: I like that too.

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Speaker 2: I think that anything that keeps it positive and also honestly open because you are right now, you don't know what you're going to be doing. It's, it's just about figuring it all out. I think that that's a good way to go, that the positive honesty,

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Speaker 2: um, it lets people know that you're happy about the decision that you've made, which I think you are,

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Speaker 2: and it also conveys to them that there's not a whole lot more to tell beyond. It's going to be a period of exploration.

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Speaker 1: I think the two things that you're essentially wanting to communicate no matter what script you choose are that you don't have an answer to their immediate question, but that you're okay with that, that it's not something that,

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Speaker 1: that you're necessarily promising to know soon or that you've got a particular angle or approach on, and that should be enough information to,

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Speaker 1: to satisfy someone's curiosity. You've answered their question and told them how you feel about it

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Speaker 1: and beyond that. If they continue to push,

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Speaker 1: you can continue to be somewhat vague. No one is entitled to a lot of details or information about your personal life. And as long as you keep your answers about what your plans are to do next and not having any plans, those aren't going to be long answers.

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Speaker 1: That really should be the end of the conversation as far as the back and forth about it goes,

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Speaker 1: I might be ready if I was comfortable sharing it to say, well, I plan to start off by going and visiting some family

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Speaker 1: out of state or wherever it is. If you're comfortable sharing that, that you you might be able to give them a little bit of information about what your first step is,

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Speaker 1: but that's definitely something you could include in a slightly longer sample script.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely. It's kind of like you got to decide how much you want to share and then then go for sharing it in that sort of positive and light way. I think that's one of the easiest ways to avoid getting into a big in depth conversation about

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Speaker 1: it.

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Speaker 2: Maybe one of the other things that you might consider, because you've, it sounds like you've been at this company for a little while, is that maybe sharing something positive about having worked there or the people that you've worked with, you know,

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Speaker 2: you know, I'm going to miss you, but I'm really looking forward to figuring things out for myself or I'm really looking forward to taking this time for myself.

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Speaker 2: I think that those are those are nice ways to recognize the relationships that you've made at this company and that's that's if they're there if they're not, you can you can keep it to the things that we've talked about. But that might be something that you choose to add to this type of a conversation as well.

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Speaker 1: Well, we're

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Speaker 2: sorry that it's been a difficult time that got you to the place of moving on to explore your life more. We are really excited for this next step for you. I know it was really valuable for dan and for a lot of other people who have done the very same thing and we hope that it is just as valuable and meaningful for

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Speaker 1: you.

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much for the question

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Speaker 1: baby,

00:25:56

Speaker 1: good manners, social graces etiquette, call it what you will all are based on consideration for others being kind to the other fellow in the little things of life as well as the big,

00:26:16

Speaker 1: our next question is titled

00:26:18

Speaker 1: to concerned high, awesome etiquette. I have lost quite a bit of weight in the last year and I'm starting to feel confident about my body.

00:26:26

Speaker 1: So this weekend when I had a chance to wear one, I wore a somewhat revealing dress and posted photos on social media

00:26:34

Speaker 1: this week. I got a call from my mom saying the whole family was talking about how much cleavage I was showing and that they were worried it was a cry for help.

00:26:43

Speaker 1: This was quite a setback to the self esteem. I had worked so hard to build up and I was even more hurt by the fact that they set it behind my back instead of directly to me if they were truly concerned,

00:26:54

Speaker 1: I don't think there was anything wrong with what I wore, nor was it a cry for help and would like to address those family members without unleashing my anger.

00:27:03

Speaker 1: Do you have a sample script that would help me ask them to talk directly to me if they are worried and to defend my outfit choice?

00:27:11

Speaker 1: I'm in my late 20's and the concerned family members are all over the age of 40, some 60.

00:27:18

Speaker 1: Thanks Lydia.

00:27:20

Speaker 2: Lydia, first of all, congratulations on getting to a point where you feel confident about your body, no matter which direction we're going to achieve that. I think it's always really impressive and it's a great place to be so kudos to you for that.

00:27:35

Speaker 2: I feel like dan when I hear this question

00:27:39

Speaker 1: and

00:27:39

Speaker 2: what Lydia's experience that

00:27:41

Speaker 2: and I don't know maybe this is just me wanting to use the, like the family grapevine. But part of me wants to, since these people didn't communicate directly to me,

00:27:51

Speaker 2: part of me doesn't really want to communicate directly with them about it and it's, it's like an avenue to go. I'm not sure it's always the best avenue to go,

00:28:01

Speaker 2: but my instinct feels like I'd want to reassure my mom a that I'm fine that this isn't a cry for help, that I'm pretty proud about how I look and this is how I choose to display that

00:28:12

Speaker 2: and that is the answer that she can tell any family members who are talking behind my back about it. I get a little bit like sometimes I want to confront rumors that I haven't necessarily been a part of and other times I kind of want to leave them in their own little cyclone circling around because that's separate from me

00:28:32

Speaker 2: and they, you know, they're making it to you through mom.

00:28:35

Speaker 2: But those people who are making comments aren't coming directly to you. And I do think that there's a little bit of room for an either or here when you first hear this question dan, what's your first instinct for how you might react?

00:28:48

Speaker 1: Well, my first instinct, right in this second is that I really like your answer, which I hadn't heard yet. And I just want to say that I agree with you lizzie post I and this is a personal response. And that's that

00:29:02

Speaker 1: the last thing that I would want to do is talk to those people who were talking about me but didn't have the courage to talk to me

00:29:09

Speaker 1: that find finding them to confront them about. That doesn't feel like it would produce the kind of outcomes that I would want in my life. There might be some benefit. It might

00:29:21

Speaker 1: give them a moment of reflection or cause them to behave differently in the future. But

00:29:25

Speaker 1: it's so hard to control what other people do and think I think the likelihood of that happening it exists. But it's I don't know if it's high enough that I would want to engage with those people and open myself up to all the other things that that conversation might entail.

00:29:41

Speaker 1: Mm hmm. So I'll start off by agreeing with that sentiment or thought and

00:29:47

Speaker 1: then I'll take a big step back and I'll say when I when I think about this question, I always try to put an etiquette framework around something. I ask myself what are the real the places here where I know I'm standing on solid ground or not in terms of etiquette and social expectations. Because that can help me find a

00:30:03

Speaker 1: of course of behavior. However, I'm feeling about the situation and for me, the basic framework here is that we're talking about what we put up on social media and how people respond to that. And the basic etiquette rules are that there aren't really etiquette rules about what you put up on social media. Lots of people make lots of different and very valid choices about what they share

00:30:26

Speaker 1: how much, how little at all everything.

00:30:30

Speaker 1: But part of the nature of that decision making is that it's also somewhat public when things are posted, their their shared with people and sometimes those are small groups. Sometimes you're able to control the privacy settings and the ways that you share so that the circles are kept small but

00:30:46

Speaker 1: there's always something a little bit public about it. And there's always a process of giving up a little bit of control whenever we put anything out into the public space.

00:30:57

Speaker 1: So

00:30:58

Speaker 1: there isn't a clear etiquette, this is okay or this isn't okay. There is just etiquette that I have to be aware of my audience because

00:31:08

Speaker 1: by definition what I'm doing is sharing. And then there's also etiquette about just how we treat each other and how we respond to each other. So there's

00:31:18

Speaker 1: etiquette around if I've got concerns, how I bring that to someone, how I address that with them.

00:31:23

Speaker 1: And there's etiquette around how I respond when someone approaches me with a problem or concerns or something that they're worried about.

00:31:32

Speaker 1: In this case, it sounds like Lydia's mother's approach didn't serve Lydia well, didn't serve her mother well and didn't serve the family very well. Lydia didn't feel good about what she was hearing and the people who were talking about it, if there was a message that they were hoping to

00:31:51

Speaker 1: to deliver or to get to Lydia through a mother through a channel that was somebody they thought she might listen to.

00:31:59

Speaker 1: It didn't function in the way that I'm imagining those people would hope that it would. And I really like your idea of responding to mom that that you can talk to her about

00:32:11

Speaker 1: how what she said made you feel, where you're coming from your decision making if you want to get into that with her. But I also think that it gives her some good information about how to talk to you in the future. And I was thinking about

00:32:26

Speaker 1: the advice that I would like to give more to Lydia's mother than to lydia in this situation. And

00:32:33

Speaker 1: that would be if you're going to raise something that's a problem or that you see as a problem that has to do with someone else's behavior. But it's in an area social media sharing where there aren't hard rules, it's all about everybody's impressions and how people respond to it and how people see it.

00:32:49

Speaker 1: That you asked permission to have that conversation that you express your goodwill and intentions explicitly, that you might start off by asking questions about what you saw and whether your interpretations of it were

00:33:04

Speaker 1: in alignment with the way it was intended, or

00:33:08

Speaker 1: maybe whether you're thinking about in a very different way than the person who you're talking to. And then also a willingness to listen to hear what that person has to say about it.

00:33:17

Speaker 1: And ultimately to to really listen to to take some time to internalize that to be ready to see it a different way or to continue the conversation. But with a lot more information and to include that in the way that you talk about it with that person. I think that that kind of approach would have served everyone much better

00:33:36

Speaker 2: dan. There's another thing that I want to bring up with this question, it's it's funny how much this brings up for me, it reminds me of

00:33:44

Speaker 2: my time at E. P. I. And the way I chose to dress in my twenties and working my first office job and kind of finding the balance between what was appropriate and what made me feel really confident in what I thought looked really good on me

00:34:01

Speaker 2: and finding that balance there. This is as you say, it's someone's personal page, it's their personal choice of outfit, they're not dressing for an event, they're not dressing for a job or something like that. So I think that Lydia has pretty free reign and what she's choosing, choosing to put on and choosing to display on her social media. But I do think that since Lydia mentioned ages that we're dealing with

00:34:27

Speaker 2: that it can be a moment that older generations sort of

00:34:31

Speaker 2: I don't want to say jump on but notice when a younger generation really starts to dress like an adult and I think that that's always something I think even if you take it out of sort of body and and instead with dan, I remember when you made decisions about growing your hair super long,

00:34:49

Speaker 2: you know or I got certain piercings and things like that

00:34:53

Speaker 2: older generations do have a tendency to observe how the younger generation is growing up and growing into either young adults or adult adults. Um And I kind of noticed that always happening like even as I'm approaching 40 I know that my like 65 plus

00:35:11

Speaker 2: um relatives like are noticing me as more of a middle aged adult now and they kind of freak out about that but I think that that it's worth just noticing and and recognizing that these can sometimes just be chalked up to generational differences and that natural tendency to

00:35:33

Speaker 2: think of our younger generations as forever young and by forever young, I mean like forever 10 years old and so whether it was the cleavage or not, um it's one of those things where I think naturally on a on a broad spectrum of appearance topics

00:35:52

Speaker 2: that this could be something that an older generation might notice. I don't love that they tie it to um like a cry for help without really investigating your own personal like behavior and actions and interactions with people and things like that. I also think that it it can sometimes, I don't want to say that older generations are always more conservative in their attire,

00:36:15

Speaker 2: but that certainly is a stereotype

00:36:18

Speaker 2: that has been around for a really long time. And so it might just be worth talking some of this up to generational differences and not feeling like you have to take it on too much. I think it's always good to pay attention to the people around us

00:36:33

Speaker 2: but how loud we let that volume be in our lives, especially when they're talking about it behind your back.

00:36:39

Speaker 2: I think that's something that we can pay to sort of take a little bit more control with or at least on our end as we're, as we're filtering it and considering it, we can determine how much we're going to pay attention to something that that in this case I think could could be a little bit in the generational difference category.

00:36:57

Speaker 1: Lizzie, I know you titled this question too concerned and when I first read it, I was thinking about all the family are too concerned and lydia. I think it's okay for you to let your mom know that it's okay to tell family members that they don't need to be too concerned and that you certainly aren't.

00:37:15

Speaker 1: Thank you so much for the question. There is a lot to consider here and we really appreciate the chance to discuss it.

00:37:21

Speaker 1: It was Emerson who said manners are the happy ways of doing things and Emerson was right,

00:37:28

Speaker 1: be natural, be yourself.

00:37:40

Speaker 2: Our next question is titled espousal etiquette.

00:37:44

Speaker 2: Hi dan and lizzie. I just discovered your podcast and I absolutely love your advice and everything. I also love the fact that dan shares stories about pooja's side of the family which makes this show all the more relatable for me as a person of indian origin. I would love it

00:38:00

Speaker 2: if you could help me out with an etiquette question for a problem that I'm dealing

00:38:04

Speaker 1: with.

00:38:05

Speaker 1: I'm

00:38:05

Speaker 2: A woman of South Asian descent in my late 20s and in the culture that I belong to. I would be considered of marriageable age.

00:38:14

Speaker 2: I grew up in a very open minded family where it was made perfectly clear to me from a young age

00:38:21

Speaker 2: that getting married is a

00:38:22

Speaker 1: choice.

00:38:23

Speaker 2: But now that I am of this age, a lot of close relatives are questioning me about my plans to get married and being extremely intrusive and meddling by questioning both me and my parents and sending marriage proposals my way I have told them several times that I'm not interested but they keep asking. I find their unwillingness to respect my life choices and disregard for my value system extremely annoying. However, my parents value the relationship they have with these people so I can't be overtly rude either.

00:39:00

Speaker 2: So my question is could you please help me with some templates to best respond to these relatives in the most polite way, who pester me with these marriage questions. I would love it if you could feature this on your podcast and help others with a similar story who may be in the same boat as me.

00:39:18

Speaker 2: Thank you in advance. Best regards MS Not ready for marriage,

00:39:23

Speaker 1: Miss Not Ready for marriage. First of all, great use on the title and second of all, I am just delighted that you found the show and that you are feeling connected to it. I certainly enjoy sharing about my family life my home, my kids. Although I try to be careful not to share too much about my kids because that's their choice to make, not mine.

00:39:43

Speaker 1: And I also am thinking about a lot of family members that I know and different versions of this discussion that I've heard around

00:39:52

Speaker 1: my family and I'm wanting to be careful not to mention anyone's name in particular.

00:39:57

Speaker 2: Oh, are you may be thinking of your cousin who shares a microphone with you, who has like watched indian matchmaking shows and said, dan dan, You got to get your family on this for me,

00:40:09

Speaker 1: Just a little bit,

00:40:10

Speaker 2: just a hint of a little bit, I'm laughing cause I'm like, ready to tell them is not ready for marriage. You should send your relatives my way, they can, they can focus over here. It's been a hard few dating years on my hand,

00:40:22

Speaker 1: lizzie Post, I could make some serious inquiries if you'd like me

00:40:25

Speaker 2: to, could be kind of fun.

00:40:29

Speaker 1: Alka pooja's mother has a bit of a reputation for matchmaking. She has

00:40:34

Speaker 1: help strike some very successful matches in her life and definitely

00:40:40

Speaker 1: uh she, she glows a little bit when it's brought up about her. She doesn't bring it up, but I can, I can tell it's a point of pride for her and I can understand why it's a significant role to play in someone's life.

00:40:53

Speaker 2: I think what I really like from what you've told me about it from what I've seen from tv shows that try to highlight it and granted those are Tv shoes shows, excuse me.

00:41:01

Speaker 2: But it's just that it's often what I describe I'm looking for, which is um, an introduction to someone via friends and family and that, that for me is a really comfortable way. I don't mind blind dates at all. And so it's a, it's a, for me, it's a really comfortable way to try to meet people.

00:41:20

Speaker 2: You get a little bit of a sense of who they are beforehand, but then it's up to you to to figure out if there's any spark chemistry interest,

00:41:27

Speaker 2: you know, when you actually get together, it's, you know, it's, it's not like you're being forced into marriage or anything like that or you're being forced to be with someone you really wouldn't want to be with. But I, I've heard of the success rates of Alka have heard of um, of just the desire to be like, helpful and supportive in this, but

00:41:48

Speaker 2: if you're not interested in it, if you don't want it, if it doesn't align with what you want in life, then I think it is something that can be really frustrating and just like when a married couple constantly get asked when or if they're having Children or

00:42:03

Speaker 2: uh newlywed gets asked if in the case of a woman, if she's going to either change her name or use the title Mrs,

00:42:11

Speaker 2: I feel like sometimes the people get just a little too

00:42:16

Speaker 2: excited about the events in life and people going through them,

00:42:20

Speaker 2: they need to step back and realize, wait a minute, there's a person here who's trying to live a life and decide what type of life feels good for them. What do they think? You know, like what what what cues can I pick up from them? Because these are

00:42:36

Speaker 2: they are really big questions and not every dinner party, not every backyard barbecue is a time where you want to be

00:42:43

Speaker 2: engaging with these sometimes big and heavy questions or intentions from other people.

00:42:48

Speaker 1: Absolutely. And from an etiquette perspective, I think it's really up to you to be both polite and firm to help other people navigate their

00:43:01

Speaker 1: either enthusiasm or polite concern, whatever form it's coming in. Oh, I'd really like to help with this, or oh, I'd really like to help with this.

00:43:10

Speaker 1: Your response of well, I'm not looking for any help with this right now, but and then willingness to take the conversation in a different direction or explain

00:43:22

Speaker 1: your approach to

00:43:24

Speaker 1: your life or or the question of marriage and where you would be looking for it. That's entirely up to you. But it's the willingness to be both firm, but also not to let the annoyance that I think it's very natural to feel when you've

00:43:41

Speaker 1: dealt with the same question repeatedly creep into your reply because

00:43:47

Speaker 1: each reply, as lizzie points out like each life is individual, each reply, each instance that you're responding to that is individual. So it's it's the task. It's the bad news side of the etiquette card, which is,

00:44:01

Speaker 1: it's really up to you to, to stay positive to stay polite while your firm about not being interested in that particular kind of help

00:44:10

Speaker 2: dan. I feel like that's staying polite. Part of it is what really does allow you to give the respect to these family, friends, you know, and honor the relationship between the parents and and maybe even the relationship you've had, if you've known these people growing up all the time,

00:44:27

Speaker 2: I think that it gives you that space to both convey your own truth and let them have the respect that you want to be holding for them. Um and that's, it's it's one of the things that I think is so important here and I love the fact that miss not ready for marriage really wanted to honor these relationships while still honoring herself.

00:44:51

Speaker 1: I want to make room within that

00:44:54

Speaker 1: polite response to also be very clear about where your boundaries are. So if it is the

00:45:02

Speaker 1: backyard barbecue gathering,

00:45:05

Speaker 1: it's okay to let somebody know that you really don't want to talk about it that day or two to really draw some lines around things and

00:45:15

Speaker 1: if there's somebody like a mother who you anticipate or are

00:45:20

Speaker 1: pretty positive is going to bring it up. I think it's okay to say

00:45:24

Speaker 1: ahead of time. I'm so looking forward to seeing you with a smile and I don't plan to talk about any marriage plans today. So I'd appreciate

00:45:34

Speaker 1: if you didn't bring that up, I think is a reasonable boundary to draw. If someone's repeatedly crossed it and you're setting those boundaries in the moment hasn't worked or been effective. And

00:45:45

Speaker 1: I think saying that to someone who you're very close to, sometimes it's enough to get word out through the grapevine that this isn't something to bring up with someone

00:45:53

Speaker 1: or this isn't an approach to take with someone. It might not work when you're talking about friends of family or slightly more extended social network that that can feel very close, but maybe doesn't have the, the family gossip channels well established enough to pass information like that around.

00:46:12

Speaker 1: So I'd still be ready to deal with those questions when I'm headed to that event. But I can tell that you are in your desire to have a sample script in your pocket. So I'm, I'm also, I have a lot of confidence that you're going to handle that situation. Well

00:46:24

Speaker 2: dan, I really think your advice to be polite but firm or maybe another way to phrase, it would be polite, but clear, um, is really the way to go here and keeping it with that sort of, that friendly, positive upbeat.

00:46:37

Speaker 2: Maybe even a little humorous if you can get a little humor in if it's the right audience, but

00:46:42

Speaker 2: a lot of people will understand confidence and when you say boy right now, that's just not what I'm looking for or oh, you know, it's definitely a question for me, but not when I'm ready to answer yet. I'm so looking forward to this barbecue today or boy, I can't wait till mom finishes up with the and you know, whatever the dishes that you're looking forward to eating. I think a lot of the times,

00:47:06

Speaker 2: you know, whether you're at that formal dinner party or whether your backyard barbecue or just hanging on the couch with some tea and the some of the other party guests or something like that. That

00:47:18

Speaker 2: keeping it positive and clear

00:47:21

Speaker 1: is

00:47:22

Speaker 2: really all that is required of you in this moment. You know, you don't have to commit to anything, You don't have to be stand offish. But if you are confident in the way you say that boy, I'm really not looking for anything right now or I'm focused on this area of my life right now

00:47:40

Speaker 2: and I'm really happy about that

00:47:43

Speaker 2: or I think this one always works. It's that kind of put them off to later when I'm ready. You're going to be the first person I call and that I think puts you in a, in a confident space that lets them know that should you want their help, you will seek it. And I love that.

00:48:00

Speaker 2: Um I like that a lot. And so I feel like that confidence to just be I'm really good with where I'm at.

00:48:07

Speaker 2: If things change, I'm going to let you know, like, could, could go a long way with this particular crowd not knowing them. It's a little hard to know whether for sure, but I'm hoping that that that would be something that would register and that they would understand as they hear it, like, okay, okay. And also lets them know that you could see value in their opinion potentially.

00:48:30

Speaker 2: And I think that's a nice feeling for someone who's offering something. Sometimes it can feel like when you're offering something and it just gets shut down really hard. Like, whoa, I was I was trying to be helpful and you don't always realize that what you're being helpful with is making it harder, frustrating or um creating more anxiety for somebody else. And I think

00:48:52

Speaker 2: being able to let someone quasi down in that soft way of saying maybe in the future can be helpful. It only works if you're really may be willing to engage them if if it's really an awful offer that they're giving you, you know, you don't you maybe you're not gonna use that suggestion of in the future.

00:49:10

Speaker 2: But I do think that that confidence along with the politeness and the clarity of what you say

00:49:16

Speaker 2: all together can make a really big impact,

00:49:18

Speaker 1: miss, not ready for marriage. We hope that our answer helps you feel a little more ready for dealing with these questions in the future.

00:49:26

Speaker 1: My folks don't understand the way I feel. So that's the story. Mr Hall,

00:49:31

Speaker 1: do you think you can help us get married

00:49:34

Speaker 1: when the two of you are ready for marriage? You sense a new feeling between the two of you, United as a pair, thinking as one unit acting as one unit in the building of a marriage and a new family.

00:49:46

Speaker 1: Okay,

00:49:50

Speaker 2: thank

00:49:50

Speaker 1: you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463.

00:50:03

Speaker 1: You can also reach us on social media on twitter. We are at Emily Post on instagram. We are at Emily Post Institute

00:50:11

Speaker 1: and on facebook we are awesome etiquette. Just remember use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the show.

00:50:21

Speaker 2: If you're loving awesome etiquette, please consider becoming a sustaining member by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette. You'll get an ads free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content plus live calls with dan and me and

00:50:38

Speaker 2: you'll feel great knowing that you helped to keep awesome etiquette on the air. To those of you who are already sustaining members. Thank you so much for your support.

00:50:46

Speaker 1: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer in the topics we cover today. We have feedback from Kenneth on using Emojis with different skin tones from episode 396.

00:50:59

Speaker 1: Hi, I wanted to add some feedback about the questioner who was concerned about the emoji skin tone that they used

00:51:06

Speaker 1: personally as a light skinned, asian man. I feel awkward using the white skin emoji

00:51:11

Speaker 1: even though it's closest to my own skin tone.

00:51:14

Speaker 1: The whole thing seems a little fraught if we don't fit into the exact three or four categories they give us. So instead I usually opt for the default and in my opinion the most neutral, which is yellow.

00:51:26

Speaker 1: The yellow also reminds me of the Simpsons and legos and how it's used explicitly not to imply a skin color.

00:51:33

Speaker 1: I really don't think that there is a privilege associated with believing that yellow implies whiteness and if there is, we should be actively fighting for a neutral yellow. Thanks Kenneth

00:51:45

Speaker 2: Kenneth. Thank you so much for your perspective on this question. I was wondering whether we would get some more feedback about this one and I really appreciate hearing yours

00:51:54

Speaker 1: Kenneth. We asked for feedback. Thank you for chiming in

00:51:58

Speaker 1: and thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please do keep them coming. You can send your next piece of feedback or update for question two, awesome etiquette Emily post dot com. You can also leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463.

00:52:21

Speaker 1: Mm hmm.

00:52:22

Speaker 1: It's time for our post script segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette and today we're going to continue with a new reading from a book we started last week called the extraordinary origins of everyday things by Charles Panati

00:52:36

Speaker 1: this time on Emily post

00:52:39

Speaker 2: dan. I loved the fact that when I first I first picked up this book and I was like, oh, it's a good, like

00:52:45

Speaker 2: I think if it is like a bathroom reader, like short, short things that you could read quickly, you know, just pick it up. Nothing to in depth. It was really funny flipping through the table settings or the table manners section and coming across Emily Post like it was definitely like, oh wait a second, we're in here.

00:53:02

Speaker 2: So it'll be, it'll be fun

00:53:03

Speaker 1: To read through this one.

00:53:05

Speaker 2: This is found on page 87 and its title is Emily Post, United States

00:53:13

Speaker 2: european etiquette was based on precedents and dominated by the doctrine of exclusivity. American manners on the other hand, were founded on the bedrock of equality and freedom

00:53:24

Speaker 2: in the country's short history. Many hundreds of etiquette books were published, most having little effect on the vast majority of americans

00:53:33

Speaker 2: etiquette. The practice and the word was for society

00:53:36

Speaker 1: folk.

00:53:37

Speaker 2: In fact, no etiquette writer had ever got the public to pay serious attention to the subject of manners until Emily Post,

00:53:45

Speaker 2: she caused something of a revolution.

00:53:48

Speaker 2: Almost overnight. Her name became synonymous with correct behavior.

00:53:52

Speaker 2: In 1922 purchasers of Emily Post's new landmark book rarely asked for it by title, let alone its full title etiquette, The blue book of social

00:54:03

Speaker 1: usage.

00:54:04

Speaker 2: It's sufficed to ask for Emily Post.

00:54:08

Speaker 2: The book zoomed to the top of the nonfiction bestseller list, pushing pippin's life of christ into second place and sharing the number one spot with Sinclair Lewis's babbitt, a novel that ironically highlighted social ineptitude.

00:54:25

Speaker 2: Everyone was reading Emily Post and in any social situation, asking what would Emily Post say.

00:54:33

Speaker 2: But why was the book so widely received

00:54:36

Speaker 1: as

00:54:37

Speaker 2: Erasmus is volume had appeared at the dawn of the renaissance. Emily Post's arrived when society was at another abruptly upward transformation.

00:54:47

Speaker 2: In the 1920s, the old standards were crumbling under the impact of the automobile worldwide telephone communications, the movies and general post war prosperity and euphoria.

00:54:59

Speaker 2: The social trend for millions of americans was upward and as in Erasmus Day, people were desperate to know how to behave in higher, if not high society

00:55:11

Speaker 2: Emily Post had not intended to write an etiquette

00:55:14

Speaker 1: book.

00:55:15

Speaker 2: She was a prize winning novelist and newspaperwoman from tuxedo park new york.

00:55:21

Speaker 2: She had a loathing for the pretensions of virtually all etiquette books of her day and had often suggested to friends that someone should write an honest, unaffected treatment of american manners.

00:55:33

Speaker 2: A friend, frank Cronin Shield, then editor of Vanity Fair, goaded her with a copy of a recently published etiquette book that exuded snobbishness and elitism further. The book was being promoted in accordance with a new trend in american advertising

00:55:50

Speaker 2: an attempt to embarrass people into believing they needed certain products. For instance, the book claimed that not only were americans ignorant of which fork to use and when, but they suffered from slovenliness, halitosis, body odor, and total social ineptitude.

00:56:09

Speaker 2: Even before she finished the gift book, Emily Post decided to write a no nonsense, lighthearted, egalitarian manual of her own and that she did

00:56:19

Speaker 2: By 1945 etiquette had sold 666,000 copies and quote post comma Emily had become a dictionary

00:56:29

Speaker 1: entry. And

00:56:30

Speaker 2: Again, this book is from 1987

00:56:33

Speaker 1: lizzie post. I love

00:56:35

Speaker 2: this.

00:56:36

Speaker 2: I loved it too.

00:56:37

Speaker 1: Simple description of the time that Emily wrote in her purpose writing the book and why it connected.

00:56:44

Speaker 2: I you know, some, some pleasant little have some pleasant little nuggets in there. I really appreciated reading it as well, and appreciated getting the chance to share it with everybody. It is fun to think about just what a stroke of luck it was that Emily happened in her 50's or as she turned 50

00:57:03

Speaker 2: To, I guess actually, when she was like 48, probably when how long it takes to write a book?

00:57:10

Speaker 2: Had felt the desire finally to write a book like this. Um it's certainly something they batted around before. And the fact that it really happened in a time when a lot of other conventions were changing. And so it wasn't just

00:57:27

Speaker 2: high society that was looking for the answers. It was everybody was looking for answers. And because she happened to hate snobbery

00:57:36

Speaker 2: and really did not want her book to have that kind of feel, even though she gets a little opinionated in a few sections. It was, I think that she she did like her desire for what this book would be coupled with the changing times,

00:57:51

Speaker 2: coupled with the ability to get it into more hands. Really turned it into one of those first, you know, I guess we were W W E. P. D. What would Emily Post? Do you know?

00:58:03

Speaker 1: There were two little details that just jumped right out at me. One was almost the opening sentence where

00:58:10

Speaker 1: they described the role that etiquette books had played in europe sort of being very exclusive and elitist and that the particularly

00:58:19

Speaker 1: um egalitarian and freedom loving qualities to Emily post etiquette were one of the things that distinguished heretic it and also made it so resonant with an american public. I thought that was sort of a very, a very direct way to present a lot of what I think about Emily and her work.

00:58:38

Speaker 1: The the other thing that I really appreciated hearing it was sort of new information for me is the idea that this was the first etiquette book with real mass appeal. I knew that etiquette books were a form at the time that there were other etiquette books that one of the reasons she was approached by Crown E

00:58:57

Speaker 1: to write this book was that there were other etiquette books being published and he thought she could do a better job of it.

00:59:03

Speaker 1: Or the publisher that he worked with was looking for somebody who could do it as well. One of the two. Um but that

00:59:10

Speaker 1: by striking the right notes, she made the etiquette book something that had um pop culture appeal, mass appeal. And

00:59:20

Speaker 1: it's something I've heard your father talk about how she became an instant celebrity and overnight success in ways that we can't imagine it today. And when he describes that he often talks about someone who rockets to fame on tv or in the movies and

00:59:35

Speaker 1: this idea of an author becoming a pop culture, a popular culture figure.

00:59:42

Speaker 1: It's something I've heard him talk a lot about. And I like the way it was communicated here that she's was really the first person who's etiquette book who had the approach to

00:59:51

Speaker 1: giving advice that that really experienced that kind of stardom or that kind of pop culture or mass culture appeal.

00:59:59

Speaker 2: A big thank you to Charles Panetti for finding all those little details and including them. I think you're right dan. It is. It's a really nice kind of short summation of Emily post how she came on the scene and why she was impactful.

01:00:11

Speaker 1: What an extraordinary origin of something. That's an everyday thing,

01:00:15

Speaker 2: totally. It's

01:00:17

Speaker 1: a good book.

01:00:20

Speaker 1: The youngsters who start to learn their manners early are fortunate youngsters. They may not think so at the time, but as they grow older, they realize that good manners can be put on for special occasions only

01:00:37

Speaker 2: we like to end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world and that can come in so many forms and today we have a salute from jennifer

01:00:48

Speaker 1: Hi lizzie and Daniel. I've been listening to the podcast for three or four months now, both current episodes and back to the beginning.

01:00:55

Speaker 1: I really enjoy your company and learning more about etiquette and how it helps our relationships.

01:01:00

Speaker 1: I want to send in an etiquette salute to someone who I crossed paths with a few months ago,

01:01:05

Speaker 1: it was winter snow was deep and the sidewalk was icy.

01:01:09

Speaker 1: I was out walking my two dogs and we approached a real estate agent who was getting ready to pound a sign into the ground. Obviously after having dug through the snow down to the ground,

01:01:19

Speaker 1: he paused and what he was doing and I couldn't tell why

01:01:22

Speaker 1: we said hi and he said, I'll wait until you pass until I pound in the sign. I don't want to startle your dogs.

01:01:29

Speaker 1: I was so struck by his thoughtfulness.

01:01:31

Speaker 1: He then said, or maybe it wouldn't bother them. I told him actually, it almost certainly would have one of my dogs is anxious and jumpy and I had been anticipating that he'd continue with his work and I'd have to cope with a startled dog on an icy sidewalk.

01:01:45

Speaker 1: I thanked him for his kindness and still two months later, I'm so touched that he anticipated that a dog might respond poorly to a banging noise a few feet away.

01:01:55

Speaker 1: His thoughtfulness saved me and my dog some difficulty.

01:01:59

Speaker 1: This kind of kindness means so much. Thank you for sharing my salute. All the best jennifer

01:02:06

Speaker 2: jennifer. I am so sympathetic to the salute, having a slightly startled, anxious dog myself. And I think it is just a really great, like a simple, sweet moment in your day. We're like, wow, someone's thoughtfulness really made a difference. It's a perfect salute. Thank you so much for sharing it with us

01:02:24

Speaker 1: and thank you for listening.

01:02:27

Speaker 2: Thank you to everyone who sent us something and everybody who supports us on Patreon,

01:02:32

Speaker 1: please connect with us and share this show with friends, family and coworkers. However, you like to share podcasts.

01:02:38

Speaker 2: You can send us

01:02:39

Speaker 1: your questions feedback

01:02:40

Speaker 2: and salutes by email to awesome etiquette. Emily post dot com by phone.

01:02:44

Speaker 1: You can leave us a voicemail or

01:02:45

Speaker 2: text

01:02:46

Speaker 2: at 802858 K. I N. D. That's 802858

01:02:51

Speaker 1: 546

01:02:51

Speaker 2: three on Twitter. We're at Emily Post on

01:02:54

Speaker 1: instagram. We are at

01:02:55

Speaker 2: Emily Post Institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette and the Emily

01:02:59

Speaker 1: Post Institute.

01:03:00

Speaker 1: Please consider becoming a sustaining member. You can find out more about our sustaining member community by visiting patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette.

01:03:09

Speaker 1: You can also subscribe to the ads version of our show on Spotify or your favorite podcast app and please consider leaving us a review that helps our show ranking, which helps more people find awesome. Medicate. Our show is

01:03:20

Speaker 2: edited by Kris Albertine and assistant produced by Bridget Dowd. Thanks chris.