Episode 405 - Work Working Out

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Speaker 1: maybe it's just that you don't know how to use social courtesy. That's old fashioned

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Speaker 1: watch as host and hostess. They know that courtesy means showing respect, thinking of the other person. Real friendliness.

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Speaker 1: Hello

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Speaker 2: and welcome to awesome etiquette

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Speaker 1: where we explore modern etiquette through the lens of consideration, respect and honesty. On

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Speaker 2: today's show, we take your questions on what to wear when working out at work. And boy, did we have a long answer? Giving cash as a wedding gift and eating when not everyone has been served their food

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Speaker 1: yet

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Speaker 1: for awesome etiquette sustaining members. Our question of the week is about following up after interviewing for a job

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Speaker 2: plus your most excellent feedback etiquette salute and a postscript on wedgwood ware and its impact.

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Speaker 1: All that's coming up,

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Speaker 2: awesome etiquette comes to you from the studios of our home offices in beautiful Vermont and is proud to be produced by the Emily Post Institute. I'm lizzie Post

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Speaker 1: and I'm dan post Senning

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Speaker 2: and we're like back at it. You all have heard us talk about the adventures. We were heading on over the course of like the week around Memorial Day, but we're like, we're back in the office, we're hitting emails, doing podcasts, editing things, creating new products.

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Speaker 2: I feel like like june has started with such a wonderful, like explosive out of the gate. Start for us. Life

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Speaker 1: is good Summer is on

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Speaker 2: fresh, but how was your time down on the We were quite literally ships in the night or ships at midday, I guess based on what are fairies were coming

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Speaker 1: to in opposite directions.

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Speaker 2: Exactly.

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Speaker 2: But did you and you and the girls all and I can't say that anymore. You've got a son, Did you? And the

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Speaker 1: kids all

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Speaker 2: have a good I know it's different. Did you and the kids? And they all have a good time down on the vineyard.

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Speaker 1: We did. It was so, so, so nice in so many ways. There were

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Speaker 1: some elements of the trip that were nice in terms of their continuity. Anisha is starting to remember previous visits. She looks forward to the big wave beach and the flying horses carousel.

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Speaker 1: And there were also some new things I told you about it that we discovered the Martha's vineyard museum on this trip as a family and it's a relatively new facility.

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Speaker 2: So

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Speaker 1: it was something we got to discover together as a family. It wasn't

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Speaker 1: me giving them a nostalgic tour of my childhood

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Speaker 2: pooch

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Speaker 1: and I tried to teach the girls about something that we love about going to Martha's vineyard.

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Speaker 2: But it

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Speaker 1: was really a day of discovery as a family and was just so much fun. And I couldn't recommend it highly enough to anybody out there that

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Speaker 1: finds themselves on Martha's vineyard for an extended stay or even just a day visit

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Speaker 2: from boston. It's a really easy day trip.

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Speaker 1: It really is. And what a place to ground your afternoon as you look for a fish sandwich and maybe a beach to watch a sunset on a little bit of time at the Martha's vineyard museum in vineyard haven would be time well spent.

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Speaker 2: I did not make it to the Martha's vineyard museum and I had really good intentions of going because you and I are really hopeful that we're gonna do actually a book event because the museum, you know, recognizes Emily as a prominent island resident and it'd be really cool to get to do something with them down there. But I was up to my elbows in paint and Murphy's oil, soap, scrub, whatever it is, I

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Speaker 1: can smell it already.

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Speaker 2: It was really great. I am really excited to be on the training team for the farm and to get to go down there

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Speaker 2: and to see a whole bunch of my cousins and and work on the property. It was an intense experience I would say because I also like y'all, I live alone, like living with people who then aren't your immediate family for a week is different.

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Speaker 2: And I did find myself really leaning on my etiquette skills

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Speaker 2: and

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Speaker 1: including

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Speaker 2: because, and I am going to share this on the podcast because I thought it was, it was just really funny. I had just been writing out some etiquette tips for a new program that we are going to be launching soon and in those tips. One of the things I was writing about was the self introduction

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Speaker 2: and how incredibly helpful the self introduction is and how it can just be that go to thing. We often talk about manners as

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Speaker 2: what people expect from us, what we can expect from ourselves and they can give us a sense of confidence when we know those two things

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Speaker 2: well, I won't say where and when. But I spotted someone I thought was catching my eye. And I immediately, the first thing I did when I ran across him was I stuck my hand out and said, hi, I'm lizzie

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Speaker 2: and just did that. Self introduction. Got myself a nice little conversation. I wouldn't say it was a flirtatious conversation. I didn't end up with like numbers or anything after it,

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Speaker 2: but I felt really confident that my etiquette skills allowed me to engage with someone who had caught my eye and I was a little bit interested in finding some more out about. And it got me that conversation that did that. So

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Speaker 2: that was kind of a confidence booster for me. That definitely came directly from the etiquette we talked about in our work and on this podcast,

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Speaker 1: an icebreaker worked to break the ice.

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Speaker 2: It was and it was like, there were no jokes, there was nothing, it was a handshake in my name and a nice smile like, but that was that was kind of fun to see see etiquette like use our own etiquette in my own life,

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Speaker 2: but it was it was a great experience. I felt really useful, which was really nice and I did a lot of painting of furniture and we kind of redecorated a few of the rooms by only using the things that we had within the house. So it was like that thrifty creative version of things, you know, we're like making do with what you have. But you really were in the end able to spruce things up. I was really grateful

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Speaker 2: that my other cousins who have been a part of this team for longer when they came through the house, they all said, wow, this place looks really great.

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Speaker 1: So I

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Speaker 2: felt really confident about that and like I was a valued member of the team and everything. So it was a really successful 1st 1st trip down as a worker at the farm

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Speaker 2: and I just, I can't tell you enough. I really, really loved it. I came away very fulfilled.

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Speaker 1: Did you feel connected to Emily post as you were painting furniture?

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Speaker 2: Okay. So yes, I did as dan knows both from family history and from the furniture that we have all received as we did things like sell our house on the vineyard. That

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Speaker 2: one of the things she really liked doing was repainting her furniture and

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Speaker 2: we would think of a lot of the rooms in the house is like the yellow room, the teal room or oh that's the furniture from the annex, you know, and and you kind of know what that's gonna look like. I have a bunch of that stuff throughout my house too and a lot of it has been repainted but I felt very much like Emily sitting out

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Speaker 2: you know on a lawn on Martha's vineyard, painting chairs and things and and just sprucing them up for this summer season,

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Speaker 2: it definitely had that kind of connection and I did drive by the house and it does still look very beautiful and and the new owners just, they do such a lovely job with it. The gardens weren't quite in like bloom yet because it's still a little early but you could see stuff coming. So I

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Speaker 1: was sitting around the

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Speaker 1: dining room table from that house at the new house and

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Speaker 1: it's blue and I was talking with Anisha about her great great grandmother

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Speaker 1: painting it that color.

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Speaker 2: Great great grandmother, oh

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Speaker 1: my goodness, her great great great grandmother painting it that color and she's such a fan of color, she won't wear half the clothes that I used to buy her because I didn't know to buy bright colors now I know and I do a better job of picking things that she'll like

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Speaker 1: but for my color girl to hear that and think about that it was it was a lot of fun, it definitely was a family connection that I was making also

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Speaker 2: connected her to her great great great grandmother. Yeah, that's really cool. Well I'm glad we both got excellent trips down there, I'm excited to go down and enjoy the farm rather than work on it to later this summer.

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Speaker 2: But it was a really cool and a much needed break from Vermont I think. But it's nice to be back here and getting back into the swing of life up here for the summer, which is always enjoyable. And I

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Speaker 1: said it at the start, but really feeling it feeling refreshed. I was saying to pooja how good a week of vacation made me feel that it really was a relief. It felt like a big exhale on the whole year, the whole winter. And

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Speaker 1: I find

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Speaker 2: myself

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Speaker 1: renewed. I've got energy for both work and social life.

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Speaker 2: It's

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Speaker 1: working. The vacation is working, which is weird, it should be not working, but it's so it's not working the way it's meant to not

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Speaker 2: work

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Speaker 2: well, even

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Speaker 1: not

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Speaker 2: working, we've got some work to do guys. Yeah, let's get to some

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Speaker 1: of our listeners questions today.

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Speaker 1: Let's do it,

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Speaker 1: awesome etiquette is here to answer your questions. You can email them to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463. You can also reach us on social media on twitter, We are at Emily Post on instagram, we are at Emily Post Institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette

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Speaker 1: just remember use the hashtag awesome etiquette with your post so that we know you want your question on the show.

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Speaker 2: Our first question this week is titled Fitness and Fashion and I do believe it. I think it's a first for the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Dear dan and lizzie. Thank you for all you do to keep the world a calmer nicer place. I have a question I don't think I've heard addressed on your podcast office gym etiquette.

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Speaker 2: I have recently embarked on a new fitness and nutrition plan. My work generously provides me with meals as well as access to the office gym.

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Speaker 2: When I do go into the office, I am often putting in counting, commuting time,

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Speaker 2: A 12 hour day. So working out on my lunch hour is very important. If I'm going to stay consistent.

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Speaker 2: What is the etiquette of working out at company gyms? When I'm at home? I often work out in spandex pants and my sports bra. I doubt this would be appropriate if I were say on the treadmill next to my boss.

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Speaker 2: Does it matter if my workout clothes have stains or tears in them as when things are no longer good for day to day, where they often become my workout wear to keep it out of landfills longer

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Speaker 2: post workout, what is an acceptable appearance given that I do not have access to my home shower home beauty products and don't have the amount of time I normally would to make sure I look fresh as a daisy,

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Speaker 2: I have hair that tends to frizz when humid.

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Speaker 2: What about smelling good?

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Speaker 2: I know that people are very sensitive to smells these days. So I would think that splashing on a lot of perfume would not be a great idea. But is it any better than smelling like the inside of a knee pad? Sorry, that really

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Speaker 2: made me laugh. Any guidance on your part would be appreciated. All the best friendly fitness fan in finance, like all the alliteration there.

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Speaker 1: Uh friendly fitness fan and finance, I am going to agree with my cousin lizzie post. I think this is a first for this particular question on the show and it is such a good one. There are so many good points of etiquette that are brought up by F. F. F I N. F.

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Speaker 2: I

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Speaker 1: have to start off by telling a little bit of a personal story lizzie post because this is something I experienced and

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Speaker 1: I want to acknowledge that this is a question that could apply to almost any industry. It applied to me when I was working as a chocolate tier, I was working in a chocolate shop while I was

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Speaker 1: a dancer, working in the performing arts and a day job that I had was that the a klein chocolate ear and I had picked up a different workout routine. I had started for the first time in my life, going to a gym in the morning,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to build upper body strength for partnering work in the dance world and I needed to be able to lift people and for a skinny guy from Vermont that was something that I had to spend some time working on and my morning gym routine was something new to me

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Speaker 1: and my supervisor at the Chocolate here had to talk to me about my personal hygiene and it was something that

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Speaker 1: came about because I had shifted my workout routine and I hadn't been thinking about the professional implications. Even working at a chocolate here, I was able to add a shower in between the workout and coming to work that fixed everything. It was something I was completely unaware of the

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Speaker 1: the way that I often end up telling the story is that the way my supervisor had that talk with me was an example of good etiquette. She asked to speak to me in private, she did it after work, not in front of other people, she told me

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Speaker 1: how much she valued me as an employee, how sure she was that if it was something I was aware of, it wouldn't even be happening, but

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Speaker 2: like that

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Speaker 1: was something that was affecting other people at work and that it was really important that she talked to me about it, it was

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Speaker 1: it was perfect etiquette on her part in every way and I often think about it and I couldn't read this question without thinking about it also

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Speaker 1: from the other side of the equation. I think our question Askar is doing the work that

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Speaker 1: I had to do after I was informed that it was an issue, but it's such good etiquette to be thinking ahead to be anticipating and asking yourself those questions about social expectations in a new situation or circumstance.

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Speaker 1: I'm dividing the answers that I have for this up into a couple of categories and I was hoping you could help me with them lizzie post. I'm seeing a question that's about

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Speaker 1: personal hygiene, just how to take care of yourself and manage your personal hygiene around a new workout routine. And I'm also seeing a question about a tire and making a tire choices that are professional or at least are

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Speaker 1: appropriate for a professional environment. Where should we start

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Speaker 2: Dan? Let's do a tire for for 500. I feel like I'm on

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Speaker 1: a show here

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Speaker 2: when I think about a tire, when it comes to workout gear, I think you want to be in something comfortable, you want to be in something you can move well in.

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Speaker 2: I know that I get very particular about my attire, which is why I often do my workout at home because I don't necessarily think it would be appropriate to do it out in the world the way I'm dressed all the time.

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Speaker 2: Also I need to replenish some of my workout gear, there are holes in it and that's something that that F F. F. I. F. Has mentioned to us

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Speaker 2: that often, they are taking

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Speaker 2: clothing that isn't good for everyday wear and using it as their workout wear. And that's a great way to to reuse something

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Speaker 2: and to get the most out of it before it's really tattered and you can't wear it at all.

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Speaker 2: But when I start thinking about and and there's no problem with that, just so you know, there's no like etiquette issue with that. And if you were going to a gym that wasn't connected to your work,

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Speaker 2: I would think no problem at all. It may be that that's also no problem at all at this particular gym at this particular office, but I just don't know that not knowing the facility and the people and and the goal for giving your employees this type of space to be in. I think the very first thing I might do is contact H. R. Or talk to a manager or someone who uses the gym frequently and ask if they've noticed or if they know of any specifics that the company might have asked for, like, hey, we really would appreciate guys to wear shirts women to wear to not just be in a sports bra. They might have some things like that. I

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Speaker 2: have never been a part of a company gym, so I'm not sure what to look for in that just from an experience perspective.

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Speaker 2: But my etiquette instinct tells me, go find someone who manages the space or who knows this space well, or go find someone in HR and ask if there are any tips or guidance on what to wear in the company gym, because that might just help you out in that space. I'm also gonna say that when it comes to gym wear,

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Speaker 2: I tend to go more of a like, no judgment route, you're trying to work out that in and of itself is a very hard thing. I would hate for people to be

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Speaker 2: judging you or saying that you shouldn't be in this space unless you're in really high end beautiful gear, you know, like that doesn't make sense to me necessarily, you're sweating, this stuff gets dirty, it needs to be functional.

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Speaker 2: I think if something's got a hole in it, how big is the whole, like those are the things I'm thinking of when I think about trying to work out in a space where the relationships take just a little more care than maybe if I was on my own out in public, and I'm not caring about the relationships around me quite as much beyond

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Speaker 2: being a good public citizen, you know, I hear

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Speaker 1: you you're balancing those two things, there is that latitude that's often allowed for in the workout world, where the focus is on the work that you're doing and people really aren't supposed to be

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Speaker 1: watching and judging each other's attire in the same way in a gym situation as they might be at

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Speaker 1: work work,

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Speaker 2: and at the same time,

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Speaker 1: It is something that's happening within that work world, like you, I was saying, I'm less concerned about the clothes getting 30 or smelly, but the old and tattered having holes in them. That's something where I say to myself,

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Speaker 1: even if it would be ok at most gyms in a professional circumstance where pretty much everything that you do as part of your professional image, that I might treat myself to some nice workout clothes and say, you know, this is something I'm going to invest in as part of adopting a workout routine that's happening at my office gym and that doesn't mean you have to spend a fortune on it. And

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Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that it has to be high fashion, but that

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Speaker 1: it's at least well cared for and that it's that it's new or that it's not something that that looks worn or tattered or has a lot of holes in it.

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Speaker 1: I think that the second question that comes to mind for me is, is this too revealing is wearing a sports bra and spandex

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Speaker 1: too revealing for an office gym situation. And I really like your idea of getting some clarity if there are things that you're unsure about, You can ask people in professional circumstances what the guidelines are and then, you know, for certain

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Speaker 1: if you don't have a four, certain answer in professional circumstances, the advice I tend to go to is to listen to that little discretionary voice in your head and it might be that leggings and a sports bra or a tank top top or a workout top are perfectly appropriate.

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Speaker 1: And it might be that I could use that exact same language to describe things that really wouldn't be that appropriate or might feel too revealing for you in a professional situation or a situation where you're likely to run into your colleagues

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Speaker 1: and if you're hearing that little discretionary voice in your mind, I would encourage you to listen to it and if not defer to it at least listen to it and say to yourself,

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Speaker 1: okay, if there's some part of me that's wondering if this is appropriate, is there some part of somebody that I'm working with that I would care about the impression that they have or would they be wondering about it also

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Speaker 1: and it is at a relatively low effort fix to fall on a much safer, more comfortable side of that line for me and for others

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Speaker 2: dan. I'm also thinking about the next sort of topic of questions that you were talking about, which was the personal hygiene, The care, the how do you make yourself like

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Speaker 2: not sweaty and gross for the rest of your workday? If you're doing this at lunch and the one thing I can't tell from F. F. F. I. F

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Speaker 2: email to us is whether or not there's a shower to be able to utilize that this particular office gym and

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Speaker 2: if there isn't I say be the squeaky wheel and when, when you're asked for suggestions or when there are appropriate moments to make suggestions, ask if there's a way a shower can be put in or

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Speaker 2: maybe if there's a facility nearby that does have a shower that they set up some kind of deal with them so that the employees at your company can go use that particular shower.

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Speaker 2: But I do think that if you put in a good hard workout, even if you put in a light workout, you're generally gonna be pretty sweaty, you know, and that that does change things like how your hair can be styled or how comfortable you are, even in the clothing that you put on afterwards. And I find that to be a big

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Speaker 2: question mark for me in giving this particular answer because if there are showers then I say, alright, my game plan, if I've got to do the noon as the workout time, if that lunchtime hour is really the only time I can make this work, then I want to be bringing basically an entire second set of my hygiene and personal care routine with me

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Speaker 2: so that I kind of have that kit ready to go at the office and I can do the shower, use my moisturizer. Obviously putting on deodorant is probably a good idea. I don't think we have native as a sponsor anymore right now, but if we, I still really like their deodorant just so y'all know, but I do feel like creating that kit of all your normal stuff or at least the stuff that could get you by

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Speaker 2: would be really important. You mentioned that your hair can get frizzy and this is one where I start to go a little bit in the direction of um, a fan of promoting natural hair. I'm a fan of letting people's hair be natural and if the frizz doesn't make you look

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Speaker 2: unkempt or not put together,

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Speaker 2: then I think frizzy hair is fine, but if you're worried about it or if you're not comfortable with it, I think developing a couple looks for yourself that are like your low maintenance or get it together without having to

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Speaker 2: do the whole blow dry the hair and, and use a curling iron or flat iron or something like that. Um, if you're able to like slick your hair back into a sleek bun or a ponytail or something like that. Um, that's a go to that I've used in the past, um, with, with my long hair

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Speaker 2: to get it in control. It, my hair nats up at the back a lot. It like, um,

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Speaker 2: it almost starts to like dread in the, at the nape of my neck really quickly if I'm wearing it down for the day

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Speaker 2: and I found that once I hit that point if I don't have the brush or I don't have the stuff to help me restyle it

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Speaker 2: that a slicked back pony, whether it's up high low or like putting it into a bun can really help me look pulled together even if my hair maybe hasn't been showered or it is, it is getting kind of knotted up in the back, like it tends to when I wear it down.

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Speaker 1: I was thinking a lot like you lizzie that there might be a little bit of trial and error period while you put together what that

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Speaker 1: post workout routine is. One of the things that people often Keown is sent and body odor and a route that some people go is that perfume or cologne route to mask? And

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Speaker 2: it's a

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Speaker 1: caution that we often offer one that perfumes and colognes in office environments are often a strict HR No, no. So you want to be careful about that.

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Speaker 1: But that also you've taught me that oftentimes, perfumes and colognes are activated by body heat. And when you work out those scents can get stronger and stronger and

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Speaker 1: the, the instinct to use them I think is one to definitely be cautious about and, and, and maybe even put in the don't do it unless you're sure it's okay category, but things like deodorants that are gonna minimize sent. Um,

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Speaker 1: not everybody likes to use them, but they might provide a solution that works for, for a lot of people in this kind of situation. And it's definitely worth considering

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Speaker 1: as part of that developing personal care routine and it might take a little trial and error to find the right one, the one that's fastest acting or longest acting or best for heavy activity.

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Speaker 1: But that's definitely along with the the tuning up the look being sure that the odors that you're

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Speaker 1: presenting the world with are also appropriate for an office or

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Speaker 1: things to consider for sure

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Speaker 2: dan. The last thing that I want to say about this question that we could probably go on for a very long.

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Speaker 1: It's already

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Speaker 2: like twice as long as any other question. And I'm sure that F. F. F. I. F. Has already thought about this. But just to put it out there, can you switch your workout time

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Speaker 2: to being just before you go home at the end of the day. Is that possible is that doable?

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Speaker 2: That might help to just like separate the two so that you're not worried about going back to work after a big workout or something like that. But your company has provided this, they are prepared for employees to be engaging with it. And so

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Speaker 2: I would hope that they on the flip side are then really accepting and understanding of

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Speaker 2: the fact that if they don't have a shower, they provided employees with a way to work out that they understand that means they're gonna have post workout, you know bodies in there.

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Speaker 2: I think we've we've definitely given f. F. F. I. F. A bunch to think about and I am hoping that it all helps to create a plan and uh a mode of operating that really works for you so that you can meet your fitness and nutrition goals. And from both dan and I just big kudos to you

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Speaker 2: for taking part of an advantage of such a cool workplace benefit.

00:26:52

Speaker 1: Yes. Since the Stone Age man has spent a lot of time seeking better materials for his clothes plus a good deal more towards finding easier and different, always newer,

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Speaker 1: always better ways to get his clothing clean

00:27:15

Speaker 1: right up to today's automatics.

00:27:23

Speaker 2: Our next

00:27:23

Speaker 1: question is called money for marriage.

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Speaker 2: Hello,

00:27:28

Speaker 1: what is the proper cash gift for an average

00:27:30

Speaker 2: wedding?

00:27:31

Speaker 1: I understand there are a lot of variables, but my specific question is whether or not you take travel expenses into consideration when deciding upon your gift amount.

00:27:41

Speaker 1: Is it okay to give a smaller cash gift when you're spending thousands of dollars just to be there in the first

00:27:47

Speaker 2: place.

00:27:48

Speaker 1: Thanks patty

00:27:50

Speaker 2: patty. This is a great and timely question since it's summer season, which is wedding season tis the season. But you know, as you might have heard us say on the show before, it is always our go to point when it comes to any type of gifting and that is that you always want to stay within your budget.

00:28:08

Speaker 2: So in my mind, the answer directly to patty's question is is

00:28:13

Speaker 2: yes, you do have to take into account the other elements that you're spending when it comes to a wedding gift, but it's not just because of the gift giving, it's because you have to think about your budget and what you really have to work with when all is said and done. And

00:28:32

Speaker 2: this is the place where some people end up not going to a wedding because they realize they are going to spend thousands of dollars on it and they can't afford a gift on top of that and it all starts to feel not right to them. And so they instead decline and just send a gift

00:28:46

Speaker 2: and that is an option too. But I, I do think that for many people, especially with destination weddings, which so many weddings are destination weddings these days, even if you're still within your country, it can be a complete destination wedding.

00:29:02

Speaker 1: As you've taught me for somebody at the wedding, it's probably a destination wedding no matter where you have it.

00:29:08

Speaker 2: Exactly. And so I think realistically, yes, you are factoring this in, but I think we tend to come at it more from the angle and well when all is said and done, what's your budget for a wedding gift? And

00:29:22

Speaker 2: I never like to say that any cash amount is not worthy of being given as a gift.

00:29:29

Speaker 2: But I do think that maybe I'll put it into the personal version for me personally.

00:29:36

Speaker 2: I tend to think of if I can give 50 or more that that becomes a meaningful or significant cash gift for someone for something like a big life event, like a wedding and if my budget isn't going to be in that particular range or or if I'm not going to be able to give $50 as a gift,

00:29:57

Speaker 2: Then I start to think about really wanting to present a physical gift. I could see getting adorable little congratulations on your wedding card from a maybe a child you babysit for or a niece or a nephew that has like a $5 bill slipped into it as like the most adorable sweet, like

00:30:17

Speaker 2: meaningful thing ever.

00:30:19

Speaker 2: And yet for some reason $5 for a wedding in a card for from like a friend of mine might seem a little off for a little strange or a little different. I tend to think of that 5, 10-20 range

00:30:33

Speaker 2: as an everyday range, a range that you could easily spend on on lunch or a coffee

00:30:40

Speaker 2: or something simple in your everyday life as as not something that I personally want to put into a card and give to someone as a congratulations and I want to say that that doesn't mean it can't be that if that's your budget and that's what really works for you.

00:30:57

Speaker 2: But I do think we, we cross into this strange territory because of like

00:31:03

Speaker 2: How do you feel about giving this particular amount as cash and that's probably gonna be a little bit different for everybody. Some people might think my 50 seems like too low to give as a cash gift. It is

00:31:15

Speaker 1: difficult lizzie post and I appreciate your effort

00:31:18

Speaker 1: To take a try at it because it is helpful and it helps for me to hear you talk about that that $5, $10, $20 range feeling more every day to you.

00:31:27

Speaker 1: And I think that's a great way to keep track of it. How does that gift feel to you? And and really thinking about that as someone who gives the gift? I think that's a really honest way to approach it. I think there's a lot of integrity in that and

00:31:40

Speaker 1: it's it's not easy to say, well if a friend gave me as a wedding present, a card that had $5 in it, that would feel a little strange to me or feel a little awkward because generally speaking, you want to receive gifts well,

00:31:52

Speaker 2: but I don't like a gift horse in the mouth, right?

00:31:54

Speaker 1: Don't and I know that you would never say that and you would never let that thought come across in the moment. But I also think it's realistic to acknowledge that and that feeling and I like your idea that when you're

00:32:06

Speaker 1: when your budget maybe doesn't allow for you

00:32:09

Speaker 1: to gift an amount that feels like an amount that's I don't wanna say substantial but commensurate with the type of event that you're gifting for a big life event, like a wedding

00:32:20

Speaker 1: that figuring out a way to personalize a gift that's less costly is a way to achieve that feeling and, and and it's probably an advisable way to go or something that's really worth considering or thinking about

00:32:33

Speaker 1: In my head, I have the $100 number. That's just for me personally, what I think about when I think about a wedding gift, but I could easily see drifting up or down from that based on circumstances and I think a $50 floor on that thought or feeling for me personally also works really well

00:32:52

Speaker 2: and

00:32:53

Speaker 1: absolutely. And then if I start to think about

00:32:56

Speaker 1: under that, I like your idea of thinking about the physical gift as a way to

00:33:01

Speaker 1: maybe invest a little something of yourself for some of your effort, either in the acquisition of it or the presenting of it or the personalization of it as a way to give it that that something extra that something special that that might be nice to do for something like a wedding gift

00:33:18

Speaker 2: patty.

00:33:19

Speaker 1: We hope that our answer helps and that you're able to get to the wedding, if that's what works for you and that you're able to celebrate in a way that makes you and the couple feel good. This represents the final stage in the evolution of modern money for while metal coins are handy for dealing in small amounts of money

00:33:36

Speaker 1: When transactions require larger amounts paper money is far more practical. A $5 bill for example is much easier to handle than say $5 in dimes and just imagine buying something that costs $100 and paying for it with 10,000 cents.

00:34:00

Speaker 2: Our next question is titled eating etiquette.

00:34:03

Speaker 2: First of all, I am so thankful for your podcast. It has helped me maneuver through life a little more gracefully. My friends and family would agree.

00:34:12

Speaker 2: My question is about eating lunch served at a restaurant. My coworker and I were having lunch with a customer.

00:34:20

Speaker 2: My meal and the customers meal were served. The waiter kind of paused and realized my coworkers meal was missing.

00:34:27

Speaker 2: She apologized and said she would put in a rush order. At first we waited several minutes and just kept the conversation going. I offered half of my salad to my co worker. He and I are good friends, so no worries there, but he declined. My coworkers spoke up and asked us to go ahead and eat,

00:34:46

Speaker 2: but that just didn't seem right.

00:34:48

Speaker 2: Should we have begun eating because he said to go ahead, Should we have waited.

00:34:52

Speaker 2: I look forward to your answer. Thank you Amanda dan. I feel like this is a cliffhanger. I want to know what Amanda and the customer actually ended up doing in the moment.

00:35:04

Speaker 1: It's so funny, I was so satisfied with hearing that the coworker offered the dispensation. I don't think I was as as on

00:35:13

Speaker 2: as

00:35:14

Speaker 1: as on edge as you were to know what exactly happened. I didn't even realize that we didn't know what happened.

00:35:19

Speaker 2: But I

00:35:21

Speaker 1: am just delighted.

00:35:22

Speaker 2: This is an etiquette classic though. It's such an etiquette classic.

00:35:25

Speaker 1: It absolutely is. And and I am delighted that the coworker offered that dispensation. That's so the good thing to do in that moment.

00:35:35

Speaker 1: Oh please don't wait for me. It would be a shame to let that get cold go ahead and get started. And

00:35:42

Speaker 1: I think that that is the beginning of the good etiquette. And I think the good etiquette continues when you make a choice. And I think either choice is valid to either take them up on that dispensation and go ahead and begin or if you really don't feel comfortable if that just feels too awkward for you.

00:36:00

Speaker 1: And I know for a lot of people they really prefer not to eat until everybody's been served. I think that it's okay to wait. I don't think that

00:36:07

Speaker 1: sitting there patiently while your salad is in front of you is gonna

00:36:11

Speaker 1: put anyone else at the table on edge

00:36:14

Speaker 1: for me it would probably be a bit of a circumstantial decision is this hot food and it's a shame to let it get cold or is it just a salad where

00:36:24

Speaker 1: no harm, no foul. I can wait until they put another one together and get everybody at the table something to eat.

00:36:29

Speaker 2: Okay I'm gonna take it a step further ready.

00:36:32

Speaker 1: So

00:36:33

Speaker 2: if I would also think about what the customer has

00:36:37

Speaker 2: because if the customer has a hot dish and I have a cold dish and I wait while they begin. That might be awkward for them. And it's gonna be a lot less awkward for my coworker to wait with no food when he has offered that we start eating

00:36:50

Speaker 2: than it is going to be for the client or the customer to be eating alone while you both wait one of you having food one of you not. So I think I would probably lean into

00:37:04

Speaker 2: what is the customer doing and I will do what they choose to.

00:37:08

Speaker 2: But that's just that's just how I would go about that situation.

00:37:11

Speaker 1: I was going to go the same place. I was thinking about the two co workers, one customer and essentially that host guest relationship that you're really wanting to take care of that customer as the co worker team.

00:37:25

Speaker 1: And I was also like you thinking that if my coworker offered the dispensation

00:37:31

Speaker 1: I as the co worker might take them up on it just to free up the guest to do what they

00:37:37

Speaker 2: wanted. And

00:37:39

Speaker 1: if they had already taken them up on it I would definitely follow suit and join them in eating if they looked

00:37:47

Speaker 2: hesitant.

00:37:48

Speaker 1: I liked your idea of

00:37:49

Speaker 1: keeping an eye on what they have in front of them. If it would be in your eyes better for them to have that option, I might proceed

00:37:57

Speaker 1: and that might be one of the things that would guide me towards going ahead whatever was in front of me. But I absolutely was taking into account

00:38:05

Speaker 2: that

00:38:06

Speaker 1: the relationship within that triad who's connected to who, how were they connected and that would definitely play into

00:38:13

Speaker 1: my decision making around that choice in the moment of whether or not to listen to the coworker and and go ahead or to wait.

00:38:20

Speaker 2: Okay so then how about this? What if instead of the coworker not having been served, it was the customer who wasn't served? The two co workers are served.

00:38:31

Speaker 2: I'm

00:38:31

Speaker 1: waiting definitely

00:38:33

Speaker 2: waiting.

00:38:34

Speaker 2: You're waiting. You're waiting. You're definitely waiting. And if the customer says like insists it's just like oh my gosh! Please you both have hot dishes like please dig in mine will be out very soon. It'll all be fine.

00:38:45

Speaker 2: Like would you go ahead and meet

00:38:47

Speaker 1: after the insistence? Yes.

00:38:49

Speaker 2: Yes,

00:38:50

Speaker 1: but I

00:38:51

Speaker 2: would wait for that insistence for sure.

00:38:55

Speaker 2: Oh dining etiquette. You never fail us. I love talking about it. Amanda, thank you so much for submitting this question. Please let us know what actually ended up happening at the table. Enquiring minds. Want to know and we hope that this makes the next

00:39:11

Speaker 2: awkward. When should we begin moment. A little

00:39:14

Speaker 1: smoother and please give our best to your friends and family. Table manners are important because people judge many things about you just by the way you eat. Alright. Maybe so. But it's also complicated.

00:39:30

Speaker 1: You see chuck, it's easy to do the right thing. If you remember courtesy consideration of others and common sense.

00:39:43

Speaker 1: Thank

00:39:45

Speaker 2: you for your questions. Please send us updates or feedback on our answers to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com. You can also leave us a voicemail or text at 802858 K. I

00:39:56

Speaker 1: N. D.

00:39:57

Speaker 2: That's 8 028585463. Or you

00:40:00

Speaker 1: can reach us on social

00:40:01

Speaker 2: media on twitter. We're at Emily Post

00:40:04

Speaker 1: on instagram.

00:40:05

Speaker 2: We're at Emily Post

00:40:06

Speaker 1: institute

00:40:07

Speaker 1: on

00:40:07

Speaker 2: facebook. We are awesome etiquette. Just use the hashtag awesome

00:40:11

Speaker 1: etiquette with your social

00:40:12

Speaker 2: media posts so that we know you want your question on the show.

00:40:18

Speaker 2: If you

00:40:18

Speaker 1: enjoy awesome etiquette, consider becoming a member of the awesome etiquette community on Patreon. You can find out more about this by visiting us at patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette. You'll get an ads free version of the show and access to bonus questions and content plus you'll feel great knowing that you helped to keep awesome etiquette on the air

00:40:37

Speaker 1: and to those of you who are already sustaining members. Thank you so much for your support.

00:40:42

Speaker 2: It's time for our feedback segment where we hear from you about the questions we answer in the topics we cover and today we have feedback from anonymous on our latest episode, episode 404. Dear

00:40:54

Speaker 1: Lizzie and Dan. I'd like to share another perspective on the situation described by Melissa in her letter, in episode 404,

00:41:01

Speaker 1: her in laws were asking the value of individual wedding gifts she and her husband had received from family members.

00:41:08

Speaker 2: Here was

00:41:08

Speaker 1: the situation in my family Growing up, my father had many siblings and as his many nieces and nephews began to get married, my mom noticed that her sisters in law would bad mouth others behind their backs if they felt the value of the wedding gifts their Children received was inadequate.

00:41:25

Speaker 2: It was along

00:41:26

Speaker 1: the lines of we gave Joey a food processor, but they only gave janey a cheap toaster.

00:41:32

Speaker 1: Sadly, there are people who keep score like this at least a couple of my aunts would immediately purge someone from their christmas card list if they didn't receive a card the previous year.

00:41:43

Speaker 1: Therefore, in the interest of family harmony, my mother felt that she had to be careful to give all of the Children on my dad's side of the family gifts of equal value to those my brother and I received to avoid being dragged through the mud by her in laws.

00:41:57

Speaker 2: It's

00:41:58

Speaker 1: perhaps also relevant to mention that my mother had no family of her own. So it was important to her not to rock the boat with my dad's large family.

00:42:07

Speaker 1: I believe Melissa said that she's a relatively new member of her husband's family. And so I will suggest that it's possible that there are similar dynamics at play in that

00:42:16

Speaker 2: family.

00:42:17

Speaker 2: It's

00:42:17

Speaker 1: easy to say that everyone should take the high road and ignore such gossip and give what is appropriate to their own circumstances.

00:42:23

Speaker 1: But

00:42:23

Speaker 2: sometimes that's easier

00:42:25

Speaker 1: said than done.

00:42:26

Speaker 1: Anyway. I just thought I'd pass along that perspective for what it's worth

00:42:31

Speaker 2: anonymous,

00:42:32

Speaker 2: anonymous. Thank you so much for that perspective. It is indeed true. There are lots of people who operate from this type of way or who feel like they really must participate in this type of

00:42:45

Speaker 2: um gift giving at an equal level because I don't want people talking about my gift as not having been good enough and any one of us could fall prey to the pressure that we feel when we encounter a group that behaves that way.

00:43:03

Speaker 2: I like to think of it as our job here at Emily Post to to encourage people to not have to participate in that kind of pressure.

00:43:11

Speaker 2: And I also really like your realistic view of the fact that a lot of people might not be confident or able to or in a place where they feel ready to combat that type of pressure. So thanks so much for the perspective.

00:43:27

Speaker 2: It

00:43:27

Speaker 1: was so well described. I could follow it exactly and helped me have an understanding of a particular dynamic that someone might be aware of that they would want to manage in a particular kind of way.

00:43:41

Speaker 2: Thank

00:43:41

Speaker 1: you anonymous for this feedback.

00:43:44

Speaker 2: Thank you for sending us your thoughts and updates. Please keep them coming. You can send

00:43:48

Speaker 1: your feedback or

00:43:49

Speaker 2: update to awesome etiquette at Emily Post dot com.

00:43:52

Speaker 1: Or leave us a

00:43:53

Speaker 2: voicemail or text at 802858 kind. That's 802858

00:43:58

Speaker 1: 5463.

00:44:11

Speaker 2: It's

00:44:11

Speaker 1: time for our post script segment where we dive deeper into a topic of etiquette and today we're going to take another peek into the extraordinary origins of everyday things by Charles Panati. And today's reading is going to look at the impact wedgwood ware had on modern dining lizzie post. I am so

00:44:29

Speaker 2: etiquette

00:44:30

Speaker 1: geek excited for this. The history of Wedgwood.

00:44:33

Speaker 2: Are you

00:44:33

Speaker 1: kidding me?

00:44:34

Speaker 2: So for those of you who are going, why is dan so excited? Wedgwood is, it's an english fine china. They also eventually, and they started making porcelain, luxury accessories, kind of manufacturer

00:44:49

Speaker 2: That was founded back in in the 1700s.

00:44:52

Speaker 2: And so it was wildly successful where it really quickly became largely manufactured and that really kind of leads to,

00:45:04

Speaker 2: I won't say some of the first, but it feels like some of the first like sets of dinnerware that you would purchase from a place and people nearby might have also purchased it.

00:45:16

Speaker 2: Um so you know, it's, it's kind of us really geek ng out on dinnerware and, and the things that we use at the table.

00:45:25

Speaker 2: An

00:45:25

Speaker 1: early standard. A very early standard

00:45:29

Speaker 2: Kennedy begins. This is on page 88 and 89 of the book,

00:45:34

Speaker 2: Wedgwood ware, 18th century England. Although pottery had been fashioned and fired for thousands of years by the 17 hundreds, there were still no mass produced identical plates, bowls, cups and saucers. A craftsman could produce an exquisitely delicate,

00:45:53

Speaker 2: multi huge plate or a whole series of plates, handmade and hand painted,

00:45:59

Speaker 2: but there was no way to ensure that each item and its color would be consistently the same. In fact, pieces from a set of high quality dinnerware often varied from yellowish cream to pearl white.

00:46:12

Speaker 2: One determined man, Josiah Wedgwood, born in 1730 into a family of potters from Staffordshire. England would soon change that. The youngest of 12, Wedgwood received only rudimentary schooling before his father died, forcing him to work in the family pottery plant. At age nine.

00:46:31

Speaker 2: While still a child, Wedgwood began exploring new ways to color clay,

00:46:36

Speaker 2: first by trial and error. Then by painstaking chemical methods,

00:46:42

Speaker 2: The idea of tampering with the family's proven pottery formulas. So infuriated his brothers that Josiah opened a rival pottery business in 1759,

00:46:54

Speaker 2: As his own master, Wedgwood experimented with new glazes, clay additives and firing techniques. Keeping meticulous research notes, so a particularly promising process, could be exactly duplicated

00:47:10

Speaker 2: His systematic tenacity paid off in the early 1760s, he perfected a method for uniformly coloring the popular earthenware of the day

00:47:21

Speaker 2: throughout europe. The results were heralded as a major breakthrough, and the simple elegance of wedgwood ware, delicate neoclassical figures applied in white cameo, like relief on a tinted background,

00:47:37

Speaker 2: captured the changing taste of european aristocrats who were moving away from the ornate clutter of baroque and rococo designs,

00:47:47

Speaker 2: Wedgwood, high quality, perfectly reproducible dinnerware arrived at the right time in history, with the industrial revolution underway in England, steam power and inexpensive factory labor greatly increased the availability of his product.

00:48:04

Speaker 2: Wedgwood plates came to the attention of England's Royal Court. In 1765 he was commissioned to make a tea service for Queen Charlotte.

00:48:14

Speaker 2: An instinctive self promoter, Wedgwood was keenly aware of the publicity value of royal patronage.

00:48:22

Speaker 2: He sought and received permission to chris in his service. Queens wear

00:48:28

Speaker 2: if orders were brisk before now it seemed that every aristocrat in europe desired to own full place settings from Russia empress Catherine commissioned service for 200 guests. A total of 952 pieces of queen's wear.

00:48:47

Speaker 2: Despite his personal wealth and friendships with european nobility, Wedgwood remained a man of strong democratic views, he publicly supported the american revolution and was outspoken in his opposition to slavery.

00:49:01

Speaker 2: An anti slavery cameo he produced, showed a slave in chains and bore the inscription,

00:49:08

Speaker 2: Am I not a man and a brother,

00:49:11

Speaker 2: Josiah Wedgwood died in 1795, leaving a large part of his estate to his daughter. Susannah Wedgwood, Darwin, whose son Charles would one day be even more renowned than his grandfather.

00:49:25

Speaker 1: Okay, I'm imagining shipping 1000 pieces

00:49:28

Speaker 1: of porcelain to Russia from England.

00:49:31

Speaker 2: How about the fact that the most important and powerful woman in Russia is willing to purchase dishware that is called like the, you know, the queen's. And we're talking about a different queen. It's not her. It's

00:49:48

Speaker 2: it's you know, she didn't want her own. She wanted what charlotte had

00:49:53

Speaker 2: the queen's wear.

00:49:54

Speaker 1: Some things change and some things stay very much the same.

00:49:58

Speaker 2: I did think it was really cool. Also think it's really cool that his grandson is Darwin. I mean, that's pretty amazing. Also

00:50:07

Speaker 1: very cool. And I

00:50:10

Speaker 1: had recently been watching something about a similar

00:50:14

Speaker 1: moment in german history with german porcelain manufacturer and the early factories that standardized both the production methods, but also the mass production of table ware in a way that really allowed people to

00:50:30

Speaker 1: standardized the presentation for sets to be

00:50:34

Speaker 1: completed and then added on two parts replaced for different lines to be compared to each other. It created a whole new market and a whole new standard for how people thought about setting the table and sharing food.

00:50:49

Speaker 2: Well, I I certainly like coming across these bits of history as interesting. It is to hear where the actual manners come from. I also really like finding out the history of sort of the things we use that are associated with etiquette. I could think of dan's deep dives into some of the stationery that we've talked about on the show over the years.

00:51:09

Speaker 2: Pens are another topic that we haven't touched yet, but it floats in my mind as something that

00:51:15

Speaker 2: a good pen that's easy to use could really make a difference in people being able to write and communicate with one another. And anyway, there I I a future one and one for the future. Um but thanks so much for indulging me in diving into wedgewood history.

00:51:36

Speaker 1: Well, thanks for finding it and thanks for sharing it. We all appreciate it.

00:51:43

Speaker 1: Mhm.

00:51:45

Speaker 2: We like to

00:51:45

Speaker 1: end our show on a high note. So we turn to you to hear about the good etiquette you're seeing and experiencing out in the world and that can come in so many forms. Today we have a salute from Katie

00:51:56

Speaker 2: hi

00:51:56

Speaker 1: lizzie and dan. I'm a longtime listener to the podcast and gained so much value each episode

00:52:02

Speaker 1: as a wife, mom and educator. I am better for having your podcast as part of my routine.

00:52:07

Speaker 1: One of my favorite parts of being an elementary school teacher is that I advise a girls group, we spend the year learning about life skills that don't fit neatly in the math or english coursework

00:52:18

Speaker 1: etiquette takes up much of our time as an annual closing activity. The girls get to plan and host a brunch. They each invite a staff member as their guest. They love this freedom and responsibility.

00:52:30

Speaker 1: The end of the year is packed with so much and calendar space is somewhat coveted

00:52:35

Speaker 1: because of this. I reached out to each invited staff member and explained how grateful I was that they were able to come and reassured him or her that a poppin would be acceptable. That the students were aware of how busy teachers are. During this phase of the school year,

00:52:50

Speaker 2: the

00:52:50

Speaker 1: girls and I work to ensure their guests felt honored

00:52:53

Speaker 1: and not as if this was one more obligation.

00:52:56

Speaker 1: The salute goes out to each of my coworkers who not only graciously accepted the girls invites but who showed up, spent time accepted T and kish conversed with students at a deeper level than simply about their role to the student within our school building and showed how good guests act.

00:53:14

Speaker 2: We

00:53:14

Speaker 1: had a great time and the staff members attention to engaging in conversation with the students and modeling a social situation my girls typically do not encounter was inspiring

00:53:25

Speaker 1: for most if not all of these girls, it was their first time doing the host guests. Dance in this way.

00:53:31

Speaker 2: Thanks to

00:53:31

Speaker 1: every staff member, custodian to principal for squeezing in brunch without making it feel like a squeeze at all.

00:53:38

Speaker 1: You taught those girls a wonderful lesson that

00:53:40

Speaker 2: day

00:53:41

Speaker 1: with gratitude Katie.

00:53:44

Speaker 2: Okay thi this is a wonderful salute. Thank you so much for sharing it. It's I am right there with you. I am loving all of these school contacts that these girls had who were willing to take the time

00:53:57

Speaker 2: and and kind of go that extra mile and participate in something extra And it it really does make a difference to kids. It really, really does. It

00:54:05

Speaker 1: warms my heart to thank you Katie for sharing this etiquette salute.

00:54:10

Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to our show today and

00:54:14

Speaker 1: thank you to everyone who sent us something. The show really does depend on you and we appreciate it so much. And thanks to all who support us on Patreon,

00:54:22

Speaker 2: please connect with us and share the show with friends, family, coworkers, strangers on the street.

00:54:29

Speaker 2: Any way that you like

00:54:30

Speaker 1: to share podcasts, you can send us your next question, piece of feedback or salute by email. The awesome etiquette Emily Post dot com. You can leave us a voicemail or text and we love to hear your voice at 802858 kind. That's 8028585463 on twitter. We are at Emily post on instagram, we are at Emily Post institute and on facebook were awesome etiquette and the Emily Post Institute,

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Speaker 2: please consider becoming a sustaining member of our podcast by visiting patreon dot com slash awesome etiquette.

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Speaker 2: app, and please

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Speaker 1: consider leaving a review. It

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Speaker 2: really helps our show ranking, which helps more people find awesome etiquette,

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Speaker 1: edited by Kris Albertine and assistant produced by it.